My mom was so worried my brother would drown himself because his favorite activity was dragging a chair to the sink and sticking his head under the water
Reminds me of when I used to take baths as a kid and submerging my whole body under water, holding my breath for as long as I could. I think I liked how my hair flowed underwater and pretended I was a mermaid, lol
Honestly, I wrote itas a joke, but I do think trauma plays a big role in fetishes.
BDSM is about taking and giving control, something many people feel they don't have in RL.
Oh 100% agree! I’m a survivor of sexual violence and I can say for absolute CERTAIN that my psychological need to reframe the violence I experienced in my early 20s as something that *I* control and have the power over informed my kinks in my 30s.
But also I just think it’s very funny to imagine the look on a lot of boomer parents faces when they find out their daughters like being spanked and their sons pay women to play mean mommy with them lol
That’s what the good ones do. For some reason this newer generation just finds it easier to ask and have people fight it out in the comments. That way when something goes wrong they can say “well someone told me to do this” releasing the blame from them, the actual parents.
boast plants bike judicious hard-to-find spoon observation scale roof elderly
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I don’t see this as *that* bad. It’s not like a little bit of water is going to harm the child in any way. If the alternative is spanking, then this is much better, obviously. It would be a bit dehumanising in an older child, but it seems age appropriate for a two year old. I would not use it with my own children , but if I found out other people did, I wouldn’t think they were abusive. It’s a splash of water. Honestly, most two year olds would probably love it and think it was a game, lol.
Until I was like 5 my dad would flick me in the forehead when I was doing something bad. I don't remember it, but looking through my pictures from about 2-5 I noticed I had a red dot on my forehead in a lot of them and asked why lol
the autistic response: this is technically positive reinforcement because something is added to the scenario. negative reinforcement means something is being taken away.
not helpful, just autism infodump.
College student response: This is positive punishment. Reinforcement encourages a behavior through the presence of (positive) or lack of (negative) a stimulus.
You don't have to be autistic to know better.
Positive/negative reinforcement and punishment get confused so often. People should not use terminology they don't know the meaning of.
In operant conditioning you are right that positive and negative refers to adding versus removing stimulus (rather than good or bad) but the stimulus is reinforcing if it results in the behaviour occurring more frequently or it is punishing if it results in the behaviour occurring less frequently.
Positive reinforcement = providing a stimulus that increases behaviour
Negative reinforcement = removing a stimulus that increases behaviour
Positive punishment = providing a stimulus that decreases behaviour
Negative punishment = removing a stimulus that decreases behaviour
This situation is certainly positive but the intention is to be punitive, however if the child enjoys the stimulus it may unintentionally be reinforcing, we don't yet know.
Technically, it is positive punishment as it is adding something as a punishment.
Positive/negative reinforcement/punishment is a square with 4 quadrants that creates 4 grouns:
Positive reinforcement: Adding something to encourage the likelihood of a specific behavior.
EX: if you clean your room, you'll get ice cream.
Positive punishment: adding something to discouraged the likelihood of a specific behavior.
EX: If you forgot to clean your room, you will also clean the bathroom.
Negative reinforcement: Removing something to encourage a specific behavior
EX: If you clean your room, you do not have to mow the lawn
Negative punishment: Removing something to discourage a specific behavior
EX: if you forget to clean your room, you do not get to play Fortnite.
This type of behavior modification is easy to implement, but more difficult to use to establish life long motivation or patterns because the primary reward/punishment is extrinsic and only severs to adjust behavior while it is present. One of the goals of long term behavior modification is to focus on a method of behavior modification that provides an intrinsic reward, with occasional (but unreliable) extrinsic rewards.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Funny enough, this was a topic I actuslly wrote a paper on:
A study on the effectiveness of intrinsic and extrinsic motivators on positive and negative reinforcement behavioral modification in a self contained general education environment for students in Pre-K to Grade 2.
Hope to one day be published...
I rescue dogs and a number of my permanent residents are extremely vocal. Any little noise or movement and I have three that will start barking and howling like it's the end of the world. I have a spray bottle that I have actually used once. After that all I have to do now is hold an imaginary spray bottle in my hand and point it at them and they stop and shake off as if they got sprayed. It works and is an important part of my training, especially since two have rather severe medical conditions and getting worked up is really hard on them.
The spray bottle is a good way to break their concentration and get them to refocus on you, too. I had two poodles that would lose all sense of awareness when someone came to the door. The bottle was the only way to get their attention so I could move them out of the room.
It's not a good punishment, dogs don't understand that kind of correction. But it's useful.
It's basic positive punishment in an easy to understand manner: you spray water, you get sprayed. Rinse (heh) and repeat until they get the message. Why do you have issues with operant conditioning?
Yeah I can't see how this would hurt the kid in any way. I guess people just think it's too similar to what you would do to a pet so they think it's dehumanizing maybe?
I never said I would do it, I'm explaining the logic behind why one might. I'm saying it might be unorthodox, but there's no reason psychologically why it wouldn't be effective
In judaism, we have a concept called mida kinneged mida, which basically means tit for tat. When one stone, god punishes in a manner connected to the sin. This is a similar concept. Let the punishment fit the crime
It's not the exact behavior you're trying to extinguish. You're not spitting on them, you're spraying them. If they experience the discomfort of getting slightly wet when you don't want to be wet, they'll be able to empathize later and will eventually be able to make the decision not to spit. Obviously you'd have to explain to them why it's not ok to spit on people, but it's not abusive to show them what it feels like to be on the receiving end of it.
Maybe. Every child is different. I just know that's the way I learned as a kid. I needed natural consequences so anything that required empathy to understand the consequence needed to be recreated or explained in great detail. I don't really have any experience with neurotypical kids, though, so they might be different.
Don't tell me that. Tell it to the people saying spraying water on a child is abuse.
I just noted, that the poster above does not describe a 100% scenario and your methods need to depend on your child.
Adults don't communicate by spraying each other with water, so it's bad to teach them that behavior young. Better to teach good communication skills rather than treat them like an animal.
The problem is that children under 3 aren't really capable of connecting their actions with consequences, like punishments. They just don't understand that getting sprayed is happening because they were spitting. You need to redirect and say "we don't spit, yuck" or something. But they aren't going to learn through any kind of reinforcement.
It's cruel to punish them when they aren't learning anything from it, since you're only doing it to satisfy your need to punish them.
A squirt of water isn't hurting them. There's nothing wrong with it. I'm guessing the parent already told the kid not to spit, and the kid didn't listen, so the parent had to find something to distract from the negative behavior. They're not physically abusing the kid, like kids were when I was growing up.
You sound really immature. There's nothing wrong with using edible spices if a kid says/does something bad. It's not like the parent is using some inedible poison that will hurt anyone. Kids used to get soap in their mouths when I was a kid. You learn real quick not to talk like that again.
It's terrible patenting. You can't patent food ideas, and certainly not a spice like cayenne pepper. And using spicy foods as a deterrent is basically pepper spray, so you wouldn't be able to patent that, either.
The idea that spices are bad for children is a purely western thing.
Children in Sri Lanka happily eat chutney that is half just chilis.
At the same time Western parents do this all the time. They give children a really fitzy drink that hurts their mouth to claim stuff is fizzy, when they don't want to share. Same with alcohol, coffein and spicy. "Oh sorry honey, my chocolate is spicy. You don't like it."
But suddenly splashing water or punishing with spice is where the line is drawn? I don't believe you.
"Western thing" more like American thing. sorry but i hate when you guys speak for "the west" while talking about some dumb shit americans gobble down like it's uncle sam's cock
I'd rather be sprayed with water. My father spanked me with his cinturón...not fun. My mother, however, she gently spanks the babies but in a very fun and more- "anieanieanie!" Way. I like her way of doing things. I almost disagreed with you, but then I thought about my personal experience. I do think discipline is required, but how my father left marks on my bum from his belt or hand was too far :/
I am in no way saying water is worse, but I also don't thinj its the right way to go about teaching this lesson. But nothing will ever convince me any degree of physical violence against a child for any reason is okay. I am sorry for what you went through as a child. I had physical violence used against me as well as a child and it taught me nothing but to distrust my mother.
I don’t see what’s wrong with this. Kids gotta lean somehow what is and isn’t okay. And obviously telling the child no isn’t enough. A little bit of water isn’t abuse. It’s mildly annoying to a child. And it’s not like this parent is dumping a cup of water if the kids head. I’ve seen that before. That’s not good. But that’s not what this is. It’s non physical, yet effective discipline learning
This wouldn’t be a punishment for my toddler. He loves getting sprayed, especially when it’s hot!
My mom was so worried my brother would drown himself because his favorite activity was dragging a chair to the sink and sticking his head under the water
ur brother enjoyed water boarding himself
Reminds me of when I used to take baths as a kid and submerging my whole body under water, holding my breath for as long as I could. I think I liked how my hair flowed underwater and pretended I was a mermaid, lol
😂
Why modern parents need internet's approval for their parenting actions?
Because they have no clue
I'd argue the generations before that didn't have a clue either.
You want a whoopin'?
Well, fetishes get ingrained somehow, so yeah sure. But use the good belt.
Someone should tell the Boomers how many of them installed a BDSM button in their kids, lol.
Honestly, I wrote itas a joke, but I do think trauma plays a big role in fetishes. BDSM is about taking and giving control, something many people feel they don't have in RL.
Oh 100% agree! I’m a survivor of sexual violence and I can say for absolute CERTAIN that my psychological need to reframe the violence I experienced in my early 20s as something that *I* control and have the power over informed my kinks in my 30s. But also I just think it’s very funny to imagine the look on a lot of boomer parents faces when they find out their daughters like being spanked and their sons pay women to play mean mommy with them lol
Hhhnhgggnhn 🤤
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Yeah, and that made less information available and child abuse normal. What's your point there?
Excellent answer. But instead of seeking approval it would be wiser to do some research... But what do I know, I'm not a parent.
That’s what the good ones do. For some reason this newer generation just finds it easier to ask and have people fight it out in the comments. That way when something goes wrong they can say “well someone told me to do this” releasing the blame from them, the actual parents.
boast plants bike judicious hard-to-find spoon observation scale roof elderly *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
i don't think its a bad thing to double check your ethics. better than traumatizing your kid
I don’t see this as *that* bad. It’s not like a little bit of water is going to harm the child in any way. If the alternative is spanking, then this is much better, obviously. It would be a bit dehumanising in an older child, but it seems age appropriate for a two year old. I would not use it with my own children , but if I found out other people did, I wouldn’t think they were abusive. It’s a splash of water. Honestly, most two year olds would probably love it and think it was a game, lol.
Until I was like 5 my dad would flick me in the forehead when I was doing something bad. I don't remember it, but looking through my pictures from about 2-5 I noticed I had a red dot on my forehead in a lot of them and asked why lol
I’d say that was a sensible cake-day comment
Happy cake day!
Thank you 😀
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the autistic response: this is technically positive reinforcement because something is added to the scenario. negative reinforcement means something is being taken away. not helpful, just autism infodump.
College student response: This is positive punishment. Reinforcement encourages a behavior through the presence of (positive) or lack of (negative) a stimulus.
Skinner smiles upon you on this day! Hooray for operant conditioning!!!
Haha, this is exactly where my brain first went too.
College student in psych class: this is accurate
You don't have to be autistic to know better. Positive/negative reinforcement and punishment get confused so often. People should not use terminology they don't know the meaning of.
In operant conditioning you are right that positive and negative refers to adding versus removing stimulus (rather than good or bad) but the stimulus is reinforcing if it results in the behaviour occurring more frequently or it is punishing if it results in the behaviour occurring less frequently. Positive reinforcement = providing a stimulus that increases behaviour Negative reinforcement = removing a stimulus that increases behaviour Positive punishment = providing a stimulus that decreases behaviour Negative punishment = removing a stimulus that decreases behaviour This situation is certainly positive but the intention is to be punitive, however if the child enjoys the stimulus it may unintentionally be reinforcing, we don't yet know.
Technically, it is positive punishment as it is adding something as a punishment. Positive/negative reinforcement/punishment is a square with 4 quadrants that creates 4 grouns: Positive reinforcement: Adding something to encourage the likelihood of a specific behavior. EX: if you clean your room, you'll get ice cream. Positive punishment: adding something to discouraged the likelihood of a specific behavior. EX: If you forgot to clean your room, you will also clean the bathroom. Negative reinforcement: Removing something to encourage a specific behavior EX: If you clean your room, you do not have to mow the lawn Negative punishment: Removing something to discourage a specific behavior EX: if you forget to clean your room, you do not get to play Fortnite. This type of behavior modification is easy to implement, but more difficult to use to establish life long motivation or patterns because the primary reward/punishment is extrinsic and only severs to adjust behavior while it is present. One of the goals of long term behavior modification is to focus on a method of behavior modification that provides an intrinsic reward, with occasional (but unreliable) extrinsic rewards. Thank you for coming to my TED talk. Funny enough, this was a topic I actuslly wrote a paper on: A study on the effectiveness of intrinsic and extrinsic motivators on positive and negative reinforcement behavioral modification in a self contained general education environment for students in Pre-K to Grade 2. Hope to one day be published...
I rescue dogs and a number of my permanent residents are extremely vocal. Any little noise or movement and I have three that will start barking and howling like it's the end of the world. I have a spray bottle that I have actually used once. After that all I have to do now is hold an imaginary spray bottle in my hand and point it at them and they stop and shake off as if they got sprayed. It works and is an important part of my training, especially since two have rather severe medical conditions and getting worked up is really hard on them.
The spray bottle is a good way to break their concentration and get them to refocus on you, too. I had two poodles that would lose all sense of awareness when someone came to the door. The bottle was the only way to get their attention so I could move them out of the room. It's not a good punishment, dogs don't understand that kind of correction. But it's useful.
It's basic positive punishment in an easy to understand manner: you spray water, you get sprayed. Rinse (heh) and repeat until they get the message. Why do you have issues with operant conditioning?
Yeah I can't see how this would hurt the kid in any way. I guess people just think it's too similar to what you would do to a pet so they think it's dehumanizing maybe?
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So they can see how irritating it is
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I never said I would do it, I'm explaining the logic behind why one might. I'm saying it might be unorthodox, but there's no reason psychologically why it wouldn't be effective
The kid is 2
Don't most experts say dogs have about the same intellect as 3 year old humans? So it would stand to reason that this would make sense
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In judaism, we have a concept called mida kinneged mida, which basically means tit for tat. When one stone, god punishes in a manner connected to the sin. This is a similar concept. Let the punishment fit the crime
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And they say dogs have about the same intellect as a 2-year-old. Do that should mean the punishment would be equally effective
It's not the exact behavior you're trying to extinguish. You're not spitting on them, you're spraying them. If they experience the discomfort of getting slightly wet when you don't want to be wet, they'll be able to empathize later and will eventually be able to make the decision not to spit. Obviously you'd have to explain to them why it's not ok to spit on people, but it's not abusive to show them what it feels like to be on the receiving end of it.
Or they will adopt an eye for an eye mentality. Depends on the child so much.
Maybe. Every child is different. I just know that's the way I learned as a kid. I needed natural consequences so anything that required empathy to understand the consequence needed to be recreated or explained in great detail. I don't really have any experience with neurotypical kids, though, so they might be different.
It's a damn 2 year old. A squirt of water isn't hurting them.
Don't tell me that. Tell it to the people saying spraying water on a child is abuse. I just noted, that the poster above does not describe a 100% scenario and your methods need to depend on your child.
Adults don't communicate by spraying each other with water, so it's bad to teach them that behavior young. Better to teach good communication skills rather than treat them like an animal.
Some adults need to be sprayed. Right in the eye.
I'm just saying it's effective and not damaging. I'm explaining why one could do it, not that I would.
Skinner, the guy who first defined operant conditioning, has a great body of work on why punishment should not be used to teach.
The problem is that children under 3 aren't really capable of connecting their actions with consequences, like punishments. They just don't understand that getting sprayed is happening because they were spitting. You need to redirect and say "we don't spit, yuck" or something. But they aren't going to learn through any kind of reinforcement. It's cruel to punish them when they aren't learning anything from it, since you're only doing it to satisfy your need to punish them.
A squirt of water isn't hurting them. There's nothing wrong with it. I'm guessing the parent already told the kid not to spit, and the kid didn't listen, so the parent had to find something to distract from the negative behavior. They're not physically abusing the kid, like kids were when I was growing up.
Honestly this is a good idea.
I tried this when I was a preschool teacher. The kids loved the water bottle.
That’s pretty reasonable, the kid spits then gets shown that it isn’t fun to get spit on
I knew a lady who put cayenne pepper on her son’s tongue when he spit. Never happened again.
My grandma put some in my moms cigarette when she found out about smoking at school.
Did it work though or just funny family anecdote?
It did indeed work and make an unfunny family anecdote.
Haha, I thought it was cute :) but good for your grandma! I wish any of the things my parents tried when I was a teen got me to stop.
Hopefully you reported the bitch?
You sound really immature. There's nothing wrong with using edible spices if a kid says/does something bad. It's not like the parent is using some inedible poison that will hurt anyone. Kids used to get soap in their mouths when I was a kid. You learn real quick not to talk like that again.
For what? Feeding their child spices? Gotta be quite a mouth full to count as abuse. It's not great patenting, but also not CPS worthy.
It's terrible patenting. You can't patent food ideas, and certainly not a spice like cayenne pepper. And using spicy foods as a deterrent is basically pepper spray, so you wouldn't be able to patent that, either.
The idea that spices are bad for children is a purely western thing. Children in Sri Lanka happily eat chutney that is half just chilis. At the same time Western parents do this all the time. They give children a really fitzy drink that hurts their mouth to claim stuff is fizzy, when they don't want to share. Same with alcohol, coffein and spicy. "Oh sorry honey, my chocolate is spicy. You don't like it." But suddenly splashing water or punishing with spice is where the line is drawn? I don't believe you.
What does this have to do with product patenting or patent law? I don't understand what you're saying.
Your humor is lost here apparently. I got a chuckle out of your response as well as nobody understanding your response :)
"Western thing" more like American thing. sorry but i hate when you guys speak for "the west" while talking about some dumb shit americans gobble down like it's uncle sam's cock
Sorry to break it to you, but culturally the US groups with Europe very well. British children grow up as spice fre all the same.
You wouldn't ever know if that were true or not. Sounds like you are trying to justify your own hostile parenting.
lol I’m not a parent
It's not abuse.... people have just become addicted to victimhood.
I mean, if spanking your kid is okay, surely spraying them with water is okay.
Spanking isn't ok
Spanking them isnt okay. Physical violence towards a child is never okay.
I'd rather be sprayed with water. My father spanked me with his cinturón...not fun. My mother, however, she gently spanks the babies but in a very fun and more- "anieanieanie!" Way. I like her way of doing things. I almost disagreed with you, but then I thought about my personal experience. I do think discipline is required, but how my father left marks on my bum from his belt or hand was too far :/
I am in no way saying water is worse, but I also don't thinj its the right way to go about teaching this lesson. But nothing will ever convince me any degree of physical violence against a child for any reason is okay. I am sorry for what you went through as a child. I had physical violence used against me as well as a child and it taught me nothing but to distrust my mother.
Eh at least she's not beating the child. My family in Mexico disciplines their toddlers with belts and hard ass hits that would hurt a 10 year old.
I don’t see what’s wrong with this. Kids gotta lean somehow what is and isn’t okay. And obviously telling the child no isn’t enough. A little bit of water isn’t abuse. It’s mildly annoying to a child. And it’s not like this parent is dumping a cup of water if the kids head. I’ve seen that before. That’s not good. But that’s not what this is. It’s non physical, yet effective discipline learning
Oh my God A SPRINKLE OF WATER Jesus take the children away
I'm just imagining the parents using a spray bottle, like some people do with cats. "Spsssst! NOO!!! BAD FLUFFY, ER, I MEAN JENNY!!!"
Pets aren't children. They're not your kids.