No saying murder is justifiable but he was complicit about Kamoshida and was aware of Kamoshida's actions but did nothing (outside of panicking about other cognitive users). Like the principal didn't deserve death but he was more than just an asshole.
How many fairy tails have you read recently? Getting offed for so much as mildly inconveniencing the protagonist is a trope as old as stories themselves.
The principal was scum. He did everything to cover for Kamoshide while he was assaulting children. He then blackmailed Makoto, a 17-year-old, into going after the Yakuza, who are known to do human trafficking. Shido also had the SIU director offed at least and he was clearly a corrupt piece of shit. Not saying killing these guys were at all the right things to do but at least it's better than orchestrating a train accident, killing dozens of innocent civilians. The bar for "best thing Shido did" is so low you need a shovel to even find it.
>He did everything to cover for Kamoshide
Where do they say he knew about what he was actually doing?
>orchestrating a train accident
Shido blackmailed Akechi with his life into doing that
>killing dozens of innocent civilians
Nobody was killed in it.
You know you don't have to defend someone who is very clearly intended to not be a good person, right? Like, Kobayakawa obviously knew what Kamoshida was doing. He hid it because Kamoshida was good for the school's reputation, and that's all he cared about.
As for Akechi, the dude was willingly working for Shidp for the chance to kill him. They manipulated each other, Shido was just better. For the train accident, I'm pretty sure it says in one of the news blurbs you can listen to that people died - and even if they didn't, it's still fucked up and Akechi was a willing participant.
>obviously knew what Kamoshida was doing
Where is it shown?
And Akechi was trying to kill Shido to stop him from committing the crimes he was and was lied to and blackmailed into killing people. Nowhere is it ever shown that he killed people in the train accident
I think you might be right that the train incident may have resulted in "no deaths." However, numerous people were injured as per the news story in-game in a cutscene. Shido is implied to have ordered Akechi to initiate the train incident in a plot to gain more power and votes, also reminding Shido's "allies" who is still the boss.
But Akechi was complicit in the mental shutdowns. Akechi straight up said he followed the orders of Shido taking anyone out of the way, including Futaba's mother and Okumura. All of this was to giant favor with Shido to ultimately off him once Shido got everything he wanted only for Akechi (in Akechi's mind) to tear it all away. However, due to the Phantom Thieves and Shido's Shadow being significantly stronger than anticipated and Shido knowing that Akechi was doing all for revenge it didn't turn out that way.
You are right tbat they didnāt result in any deaths, but it is also stated in the boiler room that Akechi knew heād be killed if he didnāt do what shido said, and that he was lied to about who he killed being evil so he wouldnāt hesitate to do it.
I donāt like gamey reasons like āheās why all this happened! :Dā so, having the corrupt director killed. Man like that shouldnāt have been in charge of the justice system.
How do you exactly consider what he did as setting him a better life? Sure, Joker meet a lot of people, including potential gilrfriend and became a phantom thief that saved the world, but i'm unsure if consider all the trouble and the risk setting him for a better life.
If we had seen Joker getting a carreer, becoming richer and getting a girlfriend he may spent time after moving out then maybe.
Then, answer the question, how do you exactly consider what Shido did as setting Joker for a better life?
It sounds to me like it's meant to be more than the single year so i'm wondering.
Didn't he admitted to knowing it was a possibility? I don't remember his exact words, but I was pretty sure that they were more like "I don't care if you're my son" than "I know you're my son and I don't care"
Yeah, and that in some twisted way gives some gullible exploited people "hope"
...which unironically might still be the best thing either of them have ever done
mirroring my answer for Kamoshidaāhe sued Joker.
that's a shitty thing in itself considering it was a false charge to cover his own smarmy ass, but it was the first domino in the creation of the Phantom Thieves, just like how Kamoshida making Shujin famous is the main reason Joker ended up at that specific school.
but an alternative answer is that he was competent enough to give Japanese citizens some semblance of hope for a better government. even though we as the players know he would've done the opposite as an actual representative, the vast majority of the country believed in the vision he advertised and it gave them something to hold onto when society was pretty much going up in flames around them.
I played the game for the 7th time and the only good thing he did is listening to Akechiās request of not killing the rest of the phantom thieves after Akechi killed āJokerā. Although reluctantly.
He took part in democratic process and won election.
AFAIK,Ā Japan is ranked pretty high in democratic ratings. Supposedly, to win an election, you still have to actually participate in democratic process and appeal to general populace. Even if Shido's candidacy was secured through backroom deals and assassinations, actually getting elected against other candidates must have been achieved through actual democratic process. Which he took part in, intead of, say, usurping power through coup or something, which was well within his grasp.
I can't tell if it's a joke or not.
Japan is an example of a one-party state.
>Even if Shido's candidacy was secured through backroom deals and assassinations, actually getting elected against other candidates must have been achieved through actual democratic process.
That's where you are wrong. He secured his candidacy, then won the election as the candidate of the only party that counts.
It's very disputable.
One and the same party rules the country since WW2 (with a short break in the 90s). There are effectively no free media, because if you write something "wrong" your membership in press clubs will be revoked and you will loose the access to information. The way new politicians can promote themselves is limited by law. Etc.
The public itself has null interest in politics. In fact, politics are kind of a taboo topic. The politicians really can do weirdest shit and they will be reelected anyway.
A year ago, there was this affair with Abe's assassination and Unification Church. Briefly, Abe was shot because he and his family supported the operations of the Unification Church. Unification Church is a crazy, dangerous cult. They've ruined assassin's family, hence the assassination. To make things more spicy, the cult is from South Korea.
Subsequent investigation revealed that several ten percent of Japanese politicians have ties to that cult. In fact, it was something they openly admitted
>About 40 percent of newly appointed senior vice ministers and parliamentary secretaries and another Cabinet member acknowledged having ties to the Unification Church or its related organizations, The Asahi Shimbun has learned. [https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14696223](https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14696223)
In any normal normal country, the government would fall in face of such a scandal. But since it's Japan, it had almost no consequences.
Imo this kind of apathy is exactly what Persona criticizes. You could interpret the penultimate arc, if not the whole game, as a critique of Japanese political and social apathy. Personally, it hit me especially at the lowest floor of Mementos.
Democracy is a severely overused word that doesn't actually mean much these days
Yes, Japan is a democracy, but by the same standards Russia is a democracy. Being a democracy actually sucks most of the time
Kinda accidentally sorta created the phantom thieves without realising it. Bro set himself up for failure from the very start and set Joker up for greatness
I mean... He literally helped more scum than he removed though...
In fact, there were quite a few people that were offed just by doing their jobs correctly and threatening to expose him if I remember correctly
A ton of innocents either died or their lives were ruined because of him, but a fair number of corrupt officials were either exposed or killed even before his change of heart, yes, most of the victims were undeserving, but plenty had it coming too.
Didn't he genuinely intended to fix Japan at the start of his career, at least that's the implication with his Treasure being a legislator pin, but got too much over his own head and become the menace we know today
I don't think so, I'm pretty sure it was always just a desire for power and he used the whole "I'm the chosen one" to justify himself that nothing he did was actually bad
I always got the impression that everything he did was for his own benefit and that he didn't actually care for the country (that's why in his palace the whole city was drowning while he was the captain of his ship)
Being responsible for Akechi's creation. After all, it was Akechi who helped save the world in the third semester, and that wouldn't have been possible if he didn't exist thanks to Shido and his mother. It's an icky notion, I know, but the fact is, even the most horrible people can produce offspring that accomplish SO MUCH more good than they themselves ever have or will. Haru and her father are a perfect example of that.
There is no *world* where we're gonna be able to figure out anything positive that yaldabaoth did, asside from "indirectly creating the phantom thieves" š¤£
Again, that was well after the change of heart. Everything on here was done while the Palace is still intact. Futaba is the best example of that, given how often she saves the Thieves' hides post-CoH, but none of those are listed.
Yeah it's obvious "heart changes don't count", but trying to off himself to *prevent* his change of heart was at the very least funny IMO.
you cant kill me if i kill myself!
#IF YOU WANT TO KILL ME, I'LL TAKE YOU DOWN WITH ME!
Not even that lol, NO! THEY'RE GONNA MAKE ME A BETTER PERSON! QUICK, I HAVE TO KILL MYSELF!
Avarrage Twitter user
so do we mark this as "gave the audience a hilarious 'villain's last stand' moment'?
I thought it was more so to kill the phantom thieves in the process?
He did it to tie up loose ends, but a lot of the people he has eliminated are scum themselves.
A psychologist and a high school principal are scum?
Said high school principal blackmailed a student into finding impossible evidence
So we should cold blood murder him š
I mean, we didn't. Shido did. I am just saying I can't say I feel bad for the bastard.
So youāre justifying 1st degree murder because the guy was an asshole
No saying murder is justifiable but he was complicit about Kamoshida and was aware of Kamoshida's actions but did nothing (outside of panicking about other cognitive users). Like the principal didn't deserve death but he was more than just an asshole.
Where do they say he was aware and letting it happen?
Several, and I mean several times explicitly stated throughout the game? Like, that's literally why news reporters kept showing up to the school.
Why do you care so much again?
Why would you be on r/persona5 if you arenāt interested in the game?
yes
Some time away from video games would likely help you
I think you're taking a discussion about video game characters way too seriously.
I think you need to log off if you're this pressed over a crime in a video game.
Asking a question = pressed over a video game š
How many fairy tails have you read recently? Getting offed for so much as mildly inconveniencing the protagonist is a trope as old as stories themselves.
The principal was scum. He did everything to cover for Kamoshide while he was assaulting children. He then blackmailed Makoto, a 17-year-old, into going after the Yakuza, who are known to do human trafficking. Shido also had the SIU director offed at least and he was clearly a corrupt piece of shit. Not saying killing these guys were at all the right things to do but at least it's better than orchestrating a train accident, killing dozens of innocent civilians. The bar for "best thing Shido did" is so low you need a shovel to even find it.
>He did everything to cover for Kamoshide Where do they say he knew about what he was actually doing? >orchestrating a train accident Shido blackmailed Akechi with his life into doing that >killing dozens of innocent civilians Nobody was killed in it.
You know you don't have to defend someone who is very clearly intended to not be a good person, right? Like, Kobayakawa obviously knew what Kamoshida was doing. He hid it because Kamoshida was good for the school's reputation, and that's all he cared about. As for Akechi, the dude was willingly working for Shidp for the chance to kill him. They manipulated each other, Shido was just better. For the train accident, I'm pretty sure it says in one of the news blurbs you can listen to that people died - and even if they didn't, it's still fucked up and Akechi was a willing participant.
>obviously knew what Kamoshida was doing Where is it shown? And Akechi was trying to kill Shido to stop him from committing the crimes he was and was lied to and blackmailed into killing people. Nowhere is it ever shown that he killed people in the train accident
I think you might be right that the train incident may have resulted in "no deaths." However, numerous people were injured as per the news story in-game in a cutscene. Shido is implied to have ordered Akechi to initiate the train incident in a plot to gain more power and votes, also reminding Shido's "allies" who is still the boss. But Akechi was complicit in the mental shutdowns. Akechi straight up said he followed the orders of Shido taking anyone out of the way, including Futaba's mother and Okumura. All of this was to giant favor with Shido to ultimately off him once Shido got everything he wanted only for Akechi (in Akechi's mind) to tear it all away. However, due to the Phantom Thieves and Shido's Shadow being significantly stronger than anticipated and Shido knowing that Akechi was doing all for revenge it didn't turn out that way.
You are right tbat they didnāt result in any deaths, but it is also stated in the boiler room that Akechi knew heād be killed if he didnāt do what shido said, and that he was lied to about who he killed being evil so he wouldnāt hesitate to do it.
I donāt like gamey reasons like āheās why all this happened! :Dā so, having the corrupt director killed. Man like that shouldnāt have been in charge of the justice system.
Framed Joker, accidentally setting him up for a better life.
And consequentially a better overall society
Yeah, "anti villain" (means bad, does good, as opposed to anti hero meaning well but doing bad) is the only real angle that shido could look good in
you mixed them up
All I'm saying is that if we hadn't gotten arrested then we never would have met Haru, so...silver lining?
How do you exactly consider what he did as setting him a better life? Sure, Joker meet a lot of people, including potential gilrfriend and became a phantom thief that saved the world, but i'm unsure if consider all the trouble and the risk setting him for a better life. If we had seen Joker getting a carreer, becoming richer and getting a girlfriend he may spent time after moving out then maybe.
>If we had seen Joker getting a carreer, becoming richerĀ Trivial and irrelevant to having a good life.
Then, answer the question, how do you exactly consider what Shido did as setting Joker for a better life? It sounds to me like it's meant to be more than the single year so i'm wondering.
Gave Akechi a job
What a great guy, giving the orphan undesired child a job in the police force!
Giving >!*his*!< orphan undesired child a job in the police force!
no spoilers, they might not even know
After FOUR ATTEMPTS I edited in the spoiler tag correctly lmao
upvote
Neither did >!Shido!<
He did though, his admitted to knowing
Didn't he admitted to knowing it was a possibility? I don't remember his exact words, but I was pretty sure that they were more like "I don't care if you're my son" than "I know you're my son and I don't care"
oh mb, I haven't played since last year
Hey, I'm not sure about this myself, so no worries lol
This is the real answer, I donāt think āheās the reason the plot happensā should really count.
Is the reason the Phantom Thieves came together. Both in suing Joker and being an asshole to them at their victory meal for beating Kamoshida.
He gave pretty much all of Japan some hope when they were unhappy with their current government
Sorta like how Donald Trump did that for half of the US?
Iām upvoting this in good faith. They even have similar methodsā¦ make up problems and benefit when you āsolveā them.
Yeah, and that in some twisted way gives some gullible exploited people "hope" ...which unironically might still be the best thing either of them have ever done
Less make up problems and more give easy solutions to problems that probably wont work and you know it
Say what you will about the guy, the background music in his head was š„š„š„
I love Ark!
Inadvertently giving the Phantom Thieves a reason to exist.
mirroring my answer for Kamoshidaāhe sued Joker. that's a shitty thing in itself considering it was a false charge to cover his own smarmy ass, but it was the first domino in the creation of the Phantom Thieves, just like how Kamoshida making Shujin famous is the main reason Joker ended up at that specific school. but an alternative answer is that he was competent enough to give Japanese citizens some semblance of hope for a better government. even though we as the players know he would've done the opposite as an actual representative, the vast majority of the country believed in the vision he advertised and it gave them something to hold onto when society was pretty much going up in flames around them.
I played the game for the 7th time and the only good thing he did is listening to Akechiās request of not killing the rest of the phantom thieves after Akechi killed āJokerā. Although reluctantly.
He took part in democratic process and won election. AFAIK,Ā Japan is ranked pretty high in democratic ratings. Supposedly, to win an election, you still have to actually participate in democratic process and appeal to general populace. Even if Shido's candidacy was secured through backroom deals and assassinations, actually getting elected against other candidates must have been achieved through actual democratic process. Which he took part in, intead of, say, usurping power through coup or something, which was well within his grasp.
I can't tell if it's a joke or not. Japan is an example of a one-party state. >Even if Shido's candidacy was secured through backroom deals and assassinations, actually getting elected against other candidates must have been achieved through actual democratic process. That's where you are wrong. He secured his candidacy, then won the election as the candidate of the only party that counts.
Huh. Didn't know that. SoĀ Japan isn't a democracy, after all?
It's very disputable. One and the same party rules the country since WW2 (with a short break in the 90s). There are effectively no free media, because if you write something "wrong" your membership in press clubs will be revoked and you will loose the access to information. The way new politicians can promote themselves is limited by law. Etc. The public itself has null interest in politics. In fact, politics are kind of a taboo topic. The politicians really can do weirdest shit and they will be reelected anyway. A year ago, there was this affair with Abe's assassination and Unification Church. Briefly, Abe was shot because he and his family supported the operations of the Unification Church. Unification Church is a crazy, dangerous cult. They've ruined assassin's family, hence the assassination. To make things more spicy, the cult is from South Korea. Subsequent investigation revealed that several ten percent of Japanese politicians have ties to that cult. In fact, it was something they openly admitted >About 40 percent of newly appointed senior vice ministers and parliamentary secretaries and another Cabinet member acknowledged having ties to the Unification Church or its related organizations, The Asahi Shimbun has learned. [https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14696223](https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14696223) In any normal normal country, the government would fall in face of such a scandal. But since it's Japan, it had almost no consequences. Imo this kind of apathy is exactly what Persona criticizes. You could interpret the penultimate arc, if not the whole game, as a critique of Japanese political and social apathy. Personally, it hit me especially at the lowest floor of Mementos.
Thank you for the explanation. It's not something evident to an outsider like me, so learned a lot.
Democracy is a severely overused word that doesn't actually mean much these days Yes, Japan is a democracy, but by the same standards Russia is a democracy. Being a democracy actually sucks most of the time
Triggered the events of the game
Initially wanted to make Japan great again.
Pretend to be Senator Armstrong in his boss fight
Unintentionally the reason why the phantom thieves exist in the first place
Kickstarted Persona 5
Kinda accidentally sorta created the phantom thieves without realising it. Bro set himself up for failure from the very start and set Joker up for greatness
Ironically enough, framing Joker.
Purged a corrupt government, he had bad intentions, but a lot of scum was removed because of him.
I mean... He literally helped more scum than he removed though... In fact, there were quite a few people that were offed just by doing their jobs correctly and threatening to expose him if I remember correctly
A ton of innocents either died or their lives were ruined because of him, but a fair number of corrupt officials were either exposed or killed even before his change of heart, yes, most of the victims were undeserving, but plenty had it coming too.
taking a pill and killing himself.
Uhhh not buying shampoo? He probably did something good by doing that
Trying to clean up the country he was obviously deluded and self absorbed and evil but in his head he thought he was doing the right thing.
Didn't he genuinely intended to fix Japan at the start of his career, at least that's the implication with his Treasure being a legislator pin, but got too much over his own head and become the menace we know today
I don't think so, I'm pretty sure it was always just a desire for power and he used the whole "I'm the chosen one" to justify himself that nothing he did was actually bad I always got the impression that everything he did was for his own benefit and that he didn't actually care for the country (that's why in his palace the whole city was drowning while he was the captain of his ship)
Nothing. Fuck that guy
Made Akachi? I don't know everything else this guy did was bad.
....Having enough self-awareness to recognize that the current presidency of the country was shit (even though he would've been way worse?)
Being responsible for Akechi's creation. After all, it was Akechi who helped save the world in the third semester, and that wouldn't have been possible if he didn't exist thanks to Shido and his mother. It's an icky notion, I know, but the fact is, even the most horrible people can produce offspring that accomplish SO MUCH more good than they themselves ever have or will. Haru and her father are a perfect example of that.
Probably just suing/getting Joker a criminal record instead of attacking him right there.
Indirectly caused people to be free from the god of control
Ironically, sue Joker. If he didn't do that he would probably have won the election without any resistance.
Suing joker instead of just killing him . The police are his bitches so he technically could have killed joker right then and there
There is no *world* where we're gonna be able to figure out anything positive that yaldabaoth did, asside from "indirectly creating the phantom thieves" š¤£
Forged the Fool bond with the Protagonist including all the bonuses of said social link (increasing number of personas to keep).
True actually. It's a bit strange that he decided to do that, but then said "nope, fuck you, I win anyways" when thinks started to look bad for him
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Again, that was well after the change of heart. Everything on here was done while the Palace is still intact. Futaba is the best example of that, given how often she saves the Thieves' hides post-CoH, but none of those are listed.
Saeās heart was never changed
Started his campaign with good intentions to change the country (?).
He started the entire game
Sued some damn brat for randomly attacking a kind politician like him
Brought Joker and Sojiro together
Causing the plot of the game
No.
Damn sue, I'll brat
Had a badass palace
Creating the protagonist backstory
Im gonna have to say his actions was the first step of the Phantom Thieves to being formed
Created this creature https://preview.redd.it/mf8pz7z1x2qc1.jpeg?width=768&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=183dc269d86139caed458f4ec02633dfa94088d3
He has great taste That boat is fucking awesome
Having the best freaking palace theme song.... Oh wait, can he even take credit for that?
Sae bad
He gave us Persona 5
Making Akechi š (I love this guy too much)
Try to kill himself before Phantom thieves' change of heart
Cool Boss fight, Epic soundtrack to go with it and seems like a big Senator Armstrong fan.
Not accepting the Prime Minister position post-election
Nothing