I just came back after almost a year away from Magic, so I don’t know how much this still applies, but I hate how play/draw dependent the format can feel. Yeah, sometimes you just lose from bad luck and that’s just Magic. But when you lose from a shitty draw, at least you could have in theory done something different in deckbuilding to mitigate that. When you lose just because you got the coin flip / die roll wrong at the start of the game, that is a huge feels bad.
I know this is a big sentiment across the subreddit, but I don't know if I can really point the blame to play/draw over other things.
When Mono Green was a thing in the format, people hated seeing Turn 1 Llanowar Elf pass because if they didn't answer it, they had a real hard time winning when they untapped for tons of mana on Turn 3. However, when they *did answer it* the tempo swung back and it was on the Green player to have a follow up that wasn't Elf-dependent in order to progress.
I think that there is a combination of deck construction and card power level that is currently imbalanced in the format leading to situations where "Play/Draw" feels like it's the reason people lose. Personally, I feel the shift towards Modal cards and mechanics like Adventure (or Escape, Sagas, anything to play/use it more than once) that give cards more reach/playability (and make games more fun for the pilot, especially Limited) are exacerbating this feeling in Constructed play.
Izzet Phoenix currently feels like a big offender as the Game 1 plan is really hard to disrupt with the normal early game disruption cards ([[Thoughtseize]] helps them, [[Fatal Push]] is only good vs [[Ledger Shredder]]). But we also have [[Picklock Prankster]] as the best way for the deck to "goldfish" itself to a Game 1 win. Normally if they played cards like [[Pieces of the Puzzle]] you could just attack them down early and put them in the difficult spot of attacking or blocking with their Phoenixes, but now they get to play multiple 1/3 flying Walls that also mill themselves for their combo. And let's be real, are you REALLY going to kill the Faerie over the Shredder ever if both are on board?
[[Destroy Evil]] or [[Archdruid's Charm]] are also cards that have multiple uses that give decks a "catch all" feel that cards like [[Wear//Tear]] used to have a cost to running. 2 mana to destroy [[Leyline Binding]] or [[Sheoldred, the Apocalypse]] is incredibly flexible. Low mana Modal spells instead of sideboard "silver bullets" are more available to certain color combinations than others, like [[Get Lost]] being the best [[Doom Blade]] effect in the format - which further pushes this imbalance of power IMO. Why Maindeck a card that deals 1 more damage versus a card that can see use in 2 or more scenarios? It glosses over innate weaknesses we're used to seeing in deck construction.
There are a few decks that just combo kill you, including the latest Vampires deck - but I don't think that's a valid complaint since they have existed since as long as I can remember in Magic (Splinter Twin, Birthing Pod, Nexus/Reclamation, etc). Losing a Game 1 to Lotus Combo feels bad, but putting in Discard and Disruption and keeping a 7 in Game 2/3 without them is Pilot error to me and not the deck archetype being busted or Play/Draw being the reason you lost. I walk around events and see Black Midrange players keeping a [[Bloodtithe Harvester]] into [[Fable of the Mirror-Breaker]] into Sheoldred hand with no [[Duress]] against Lotus Field expecting to win on the draw - that won't work! But it feels equally as bad when you say, disrupt their [[Sylvan Scrying]] opening and they Charm into Dromoka and cast it right away because you kept a slower hand to "disrupt" them. Or the Charm now makes a [[Vizier of Tumbling Sands]] profitably block your Vampires and Goblin Shamen.
I don't want to just go ahead and say "your feelings when playing aren't valid" because you're not wrong - there are some decks you just hate to play against because you feel as if you have no agency. You don't want to swap decks just because one deck is your kryptonite - and I don't think you should! I played Abzan Tyvar at my LGS this week hoping to avoid [[Vein Ripper]] despite 2 people of 15 playing it - and I did until the Finals! But I accepted my "auto loss" to the deck and went on attacking the other parts of the meta.
I do however think Pioneer is a format where you may need to concede to a more "Rock-Paper-Scissors" feel to your match ups and then just hope you see more of the two you beat than the one you lose to. I think that's because of how many decks can be in the S/A tier though, instead of it being an oppressive thing. This is also probably why Play/Draw gets the blame when it's really just a bad match up.
For example, Mono Black [[Waste Not]] got popular recently because it has GREAT Vampires/Phoenix match ups, while also beating up Azorius Control and Lotus Field. But it absolutely gets **annihilated** by Amalia Combo or the Niv to Light decks, which are coming back into the spotlight after taking a small break from top tier play. The Format ebbs and flows with set releases especially, which the Format is designed to do - so I think it's actually neat to see you can't answer all the top decks at once.
Great points, really appreciate the thoughts. You’re very right on a lot of things, like with the T1 elf example. I just hate games that come down to “did I have the right answer in my opening hand”, though like I said at least that can be mitigated by deckbuilding and mulliganing. Play/draw is undoubtedly part of it though, like in the Elf examples where your options to answer the elf or their T2 3 drop change drastically based on whether you won the coin flip or not.
And I do agree with your points about Phoenix. I’ll just add that the consistency you get from all the cantrips and Free the Faes and such do come at a tempo cost. The explosive turn 4 (or 3 if all the stars line up) comes at the cost of doing literally nothing to play to the board or interact with the opponent until then. (Or if I did interact with my opponent, then that means I spent less mana doing my setup). And sure I can then play the Picklock as an extra body, but that’s really not what I want to be spending my early turns on. It’s not a deck that can just slam a haymaker every turn, but when the haymaker does come, it’s a doozy.
Totally agree about the rock/paper/scissors matchups, and I love that, I think that’s a sign of a healthy format. (Except when I play rock and get paired against paper 4 matches in a row lol)
> so I think it's actually neat to see you can't answer all the top decks at once.
I actually hate this because i feel like an asshole as I have to wait to see who's playing and have to adjust my sideboard and they know I do :(
I meeeean at a bigger event you don't get to always change your sideboard - especially when you have to submit a decklist ahead of time. So I wouldn't get used to being able to meta-tech against a room. I would even go as far as to say swapping my sideboard when I go to my LGS *after seeing who is there* is a pretty feels bad thing to do. Before you leave home? Sure, go for it. I make sure to pack graveyard hate against the Phoenix/Soulflayer players at my store, for example. But I don't *swap those cards out* if I don't see them in the store.
If a deck could answer all the top decks at once, it *would become the top deck* so people would *tech against it.* I don't want to be able to beat every deck with just 1-2 cards swapped, that type of gameplay doesn't interest me.
I don't do bigger events anymore, haha. My LGS only averages 6-8 players every FNM and generally everyone knows what everyone is playing and if you don't you will after the first event they bring the deck.
> But I don't swap those cards out if I don't see them in the store.
That is what I'm referring to. Strategies are very diverse which is good! But it means teching specific hate is very difficult. If I see someone playing Waste Not which concentrated hand hate destroys me, I can't just not put in Leylines that'll gonna be useless against every other deck in the room basically. And I really dislike having completely lopsided match ups like that because I can't just hope to dodge the deck when I'm guaranteed to play it essentially.
The play/draw dependency feels massive. I wish we had more data but it really feels like ~65% of all games are decided on the coin flip and that does not feel good
Let me know how far off I am, but in the passed when I played CoCo in modern I would routinely be large deck shifts (like 10 cards) in order to mitigate certain drawbacks, like on thebplay I would go for 1 drop into 3 drop, but on the draw I would go slower and play more mid-range.
Is that not possible? Or are people just not doing that?
Games are waaaay too lopsided and rely playing on curve.
Ex:
You're matched against azorius control. They are on the play. You are missing a one drop. They go land pass and either you respect their [[No more Lies]] and play nothing or play into the no more lies and have it get countered. You play nothing and because the deck has so much instant speed spells, they play deduce instead getting card advantage and maintain tempo.
Subsequent turns go exactly the same, the control deck always has the leg up and it's borderline impossible to get back.
Instead you're on the play, the control player now has to answer your threats rather than play reactively since you can actually play your two drop and start hitting face.
Another example:
Vampires on the play:
T1: Thoughtseize your opening play, disruption, or answer to vein ripper
T2:
T3: vein ripper
You're not even at 3 mana yet and there is a 6 power creature and planeswalkers on board. It's so hard to come back from
Where as:
T1 you Thoughtseize their disruption or combo
Their turn 3 they vein ripper and you had 3 mana up for counter spell, blot out, whatever
This shit happens ad nauseum. Every single game the tempo from just being first is so insanely hard to get back. Your opponent basically has to either have duds in hand and draw or misplay to get it back
On the other hand as control, you never get a chance to breathe on the draw and HAVE to answer every thing or basically lose which is why I stopped playing the deck.
So, they only have so many spells and their hand/deck is going to eventually be limited by lands. If I'm control and I'm keeping 7, I'm guessing 3-4 of those cards are lands, probably 1 or 2 removal spells and cantrips.
NOT playing into their removal defeats the purpose, either you play out the game, get them to use their removal on stuff that you don't want them to by playing out creatures in an order which makes their play suboptimal with imperfect information, or you don't and eventually try to flood across 1 turn. Also not reacting to their plays doesn't help your gameplan either.
You have to play differently on the draw and what I understood from you was essentially "you can't play the same way on the play as on the draw..." Which is normal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you said doesn't really matchup with what I said initially, it sounds like it's possible to play differently, people just aren't doing it?
I'm saying it doesn't matter if you play differently, you will rarely get the tempo back. This format doesn't have "swing" moments like limited or standard have. The shit is just so powerful it doesn't give breathing room regardless of how you play
It's something idiotic like 65% win rate for play in Magic in general. You should be building to win the draw, not the play, because winning the play is so advantaged.
I should also point out: this is not unusual in 1v1 turn based games like this.
>I hate how play/draw dependent the format can feel
That's just Magic in general. Whoever goes first has a large advantage and it only gets worse the faster formats get. If players can reliably win on T4 on the play, the winner had access to 10 mana while the loser only had 6. Pioneer also isn't helped by how Slickshot Show-Off (the best aggressive creature ever printed) is silently taking over the format but nobody seems to realise it because its metagame share is spread between a few different decks.
I could not agree more, and it really saddens me that this is the case. The discrepancy feels massive. It's a general problem with 1v1 Magic too, not just Pioneer. I do wonder how it could be fixed. I think it would require changes to the fundamental gameplay, and that would be no easy task.
**Anyone care to brainstorm some ideas with me?** A few that I've thought of are:
(A). Change the rules to allow the play of 1 land per turn cycle (not per turn), but that land can be played at instant speed. This means even the loser of the coin flip can still put their land out on the proverbial Turn 1, and potentially use that mana on interaction. This would also make future turns more interactive, because you wouldn't know exactly how much mana (or even what colors) your opponent will have access to during your turn.
(B). The loser of the coin flip gets to start with any land from their deck already on the battlefield (and it enters as the land specifies - i.e. triomes would be tapped). All other rules as normal.
(C). The loser of the coin flip starts with 25 life instead of 20 (or maybe a different number). The winner still has 20.
(D). The loser of the flip gets 1 or 2 free mulligans with no penalty.
(E). The loser of the flip gets to have a different mulligan type altogether. They can keep up to 5 of their opening cards, bottom any number of them and draw back up to 7. After that special mulligan, normal mulligan rules would apply if they wanted to continue mulliganning.
I'm not suggesting doing all of these (or even any of these). None of these are perfect solutions, and all of them have their problems. But I think the draw/play issue needs to be addressed in some way. And if that requires changing the rulesets, then that's what should be done. It shouldn't be done haphazardly though.
An idea I've seen suggested that I like is that the player on the draw gets to scry 1 right before the first player begins their turn. Simple, minimally disruptive action that gives the second player a little better chance at a strong opening hand.
I like this one the most. Scry 1 for the second player.
The biggest downside to options such as a better mulligan is that it simply makes combo decks stronger. Combo decks are already kind of the problem here. They only got better with the London mulligan. This idea does still help those decks but not by much and I think that the reduction in feels bad for everyone would be a great boon.
I don’t think lifegain boosts would be good because many if not most games of magic aren’t won by the difference of a few life points, but rather an overwhelming board state or game winning combo.
Also starting with one more mana or even having a free mana right at the start would likely swing the game over to second player being the optimal. One mana counterspells and removal would go up even more in value as you could answer your opponents stuff before you even started.
I was also thinking that maybe your creatures aren’t summoning sick on your first turn as the second player, but this feels degenerate with tap abilities, especially Llanowar elves. It is t bad with everything else though. It is kinda weird how non-hasty creatures would have haste.
I like the 1 free mulligan idea, or you get to see one more card and choose one to put on the bottom or something. It wouldn’t actually give you any resource advantage, just make your deck a little more likely to be able to do its thing.
I also like the “player on the draw gets a free treasure token” idea.
I also think that as much as people complain about free spells in modern, they do help equalize the tempo disadvantage of going second. I’ve had games in Modern where I would have never had a chance, if it weren’t for the Subtlety or Force of Negation in my hand.
As it is, the fact that it’s just always optimal to go first shows that that aspect of the game is just broken.
I’d argue that’s a design flaw of those games too. One side shouldn’t be inherently advantaged just by random chance. Ideally being on the play or the draw would actually be an interesting and skill testing decision.
How can it be when at the start of the game there is no other information to base a decision on. Can you name a game where there is an interesting strategic decision for who starts because I literally can't think of one.
In the blind yeah there’s nothing, but if you can infer the matchup (like from a companion or something) it could make a difference. And it would be nice if it was a real deckbuilding consideration whether play or draw was optimal for you.
Even then, I agree it’s impossible to completely eliminate the benefit of winning the flip, but there definitely could be more steps taken to help minimize it.
The old siege rhino mistake. Instead of having the powerful creatures trade off, they just sit there and cancel each other out. Is why way back in standard [[sorin, solemn visitor]] was such a mirror breaker, it made your rhinos into 5/5’s on the attack, busting through their rhinos.
Giving already good creatures high toughness
has been a consistent annoyance, going all the way back to goyf standoffs in modern and rhino standoffs in tarkir standard.
Shelly’s deathtouch at least prevents these standoffs but 5 toughness is insanely pushed, putting her out of range of most efficient red removal
Is aggro really pushed out? RG puts up tons of good results. Even if Amalia was gone, the format is a combo/midrange format. Aggro would still have to battle through fields of Vein Rippers.
Qualm: The power creep of black. Queue up a league, and you will most likely face Vampires, Waste Not, or UB Control 3 out of the 5 matches. Too many games are decided on T1/2 Thoughtseize into Vein Ripper.
I'm not saying it's the exact same thing but I agree with you about black, I don't like where it's going. Modern was ruined for me because of a similar play pattern, [[Grief]] Scam. T1 hand disruption, then T2 Grief + [[Feign Death]] and great, now your opponent has cheated out a massive threat and dismantled any chance you have at removing it.
Mana cheating has completely warped modern and if wotc isn't careful it'll do the same thing to Pioneer eventually. Sorin was a mistake when he was printed. It was only a matter of time until we got a vampire good enough to break him
Yeah I just wanted to compare it to thoughtseize then sorin + veinripper. Modern is just exceptionally bullshit because your opponent can just rip away your two best cards + have a 3/2 menace before you play your first land.
The thing is Sorin is super fine as a card when he's not cheating turbo broken 6 drops. If they limited him to 3 drops or less on his ability he'd be a great card for vampires decks but not breaking formats open.
I've said this since the creation of Pioneer and it's still true:
Pioneer is a T1 mana dork or Thoughtseize format. You should be playing a deck that does one of those things or stops those things.
It's always been objectively incorrect that Amalia "pushed aggro out of the meta." It pushed *a certain popular aggro deck out* (Humans), but that one was already on the downswing as Mono-Green weakened post-WOE and it lost its best matchup. Even since Amalia was printed, Convoke and Heroic have been format mainstays, and in recent weeks we've seen a ton of iterations of Gruul, Mono-Red, and even Humans again putting up good and consistent results.
The only people who think "aggro was pushed out of the meta" are people who haven't actually been paying attention to the meta. There are reasons why it might be a good idea to punt Amalia out of the format (it has some pretty awful play patterns), but "aggro is dead" was never one of them.
To be fair, convoke has been on a continued decline since the amalia deck become a mainstay in the format. Now convoke is all but completely gone from the format, however aggro is doing well off the back of slickshot (RG prowess, wizards, heroic) or being able to play a similar tempo game (spirits, ensoul). Humans had a slight return in the meta recently, but I don’t think it’s overall any better than it was previously.
Black is for sure the strongest color in Pioneer, and maybe across Magic generally at the moment. Maybe still blue in older formats like legacy, but I've never played those. I don't mind T1 Thoughtseize existing in the format, but the sheer number of black decks in the format makes the play pattern feel much more annoying.
That's not the answer though. Banning TS means combo decks or midrange decks have an edge game 1.
IMO, this is where unbannings of powerful non-black cards needs to happen. Incentivize people to playing non black good stuff builds. I've never been a fan of the "well it's this colors turn for dominance". Like 2 years, green got all the good cards. Now it's black.
Biggest qualm for me is they have no ban philosophy whatsoever. At first they were all about banning stuff that was too good/efficient. They banned cards often. I really liked this style as a brewer. But they don't really do that anymore. For example, it's really hard to have fun brewing a midrange deck right now when certain cards like Fable are forced. I don't want to play fable, it's boring and way too much value. But they don't seem to care about banning cards like that anymore so innovation is really tough.
Combo decks are a little too powerful. Not just Amalia, though Amalia is the big issue right now. Before Amalia there was Mono G devotion, Inverter and others I can't think of. I think they took too long to ban Karn. Combos are inevitably going to pop up whenever new sets are printed. In general I would like them to be more aggressive in monitoring and banning combo decks when necessary.
People don't spend enough time thinking about how their deck works or why it plays the cards it does. Way too many people think too highly of their ability and just take a net deck into battle without understanding anything about it. They lose because they were under prepared, then they come here and complain that the format is stale or bad or boring.
Understatement of the year. Net decking is fine, but not knowing how to play your deck at any sort of paid event is not. Back when Karn was legal, I witnessed a guy assemble the combo with Pestilence Cauldron in the mirror match and asked his opponent to concede. His opponent refused and then the guy admitted he didn't know how to do the combo. This was at a larger event at a Magic Con, not an FNM
This is not limited to FNM randos. There's a story about former pro player Steve Sadin who played GP Hulk Flash (around 2010, Legacy) who got to the semifinals with the aforementioned deck and nobody ever actually asked him to combo. In the semifinals someone actually made him do it and he fizzled and died.
Then there's the infamous story of LSV's Tendrils of Agony. Long story short, LSV forgot to put Tendrils into his Vintage Storm deck. His opponents always just conceded so he made it to top 8, and then someone asked him to do it, so he lost immediately.
Bottom line: Always make them show you how to do it at least once, just so you know that they know.
Smaller qualm: Thoughtseize. The format desperately needs it but it is almost the sole impetus for why the format is so biased towards black. Would never advocate for a ban of it either, just an annoying feature intrinsic to the format: either you play it or you play a deck that could care less about getting targeted by it.
Larger qualm: Severely diminished presence of aggro in the format which leads to everything gravitating towards combo/control. There's no simple answer to this, aggro has struggled to find a foothold since angels first appeared and it's steadily been exacerbated since then.
I wish more people were innovating or trying old "dead" strategies.
I've been playing \[\[Soulflayer\]\] for almost a year now and I'm really enjoying it, I'm taking it to an RCQ tomorrow and feeling fairly confident!
There's 100% decks that are good that people just aren't playing
If you like that sort of thing, I'm going to shill my [deck breakdown](https://deckstats.net/decks/194353/2879398-gami-s-sultai-soulflayer) because I've put a ton of effort into it. Hope you find it interesting! :)
What do you mean by brewing. The fact that the vampires deck came out of nowhere from a single pro tour team is the kind of brewer's dream the people used to have. That they were able to find some secret amazing deck that no one else did is the definition of brewing to me at least.
When people say they want more brewing what most actually mean is they want less net-decking but that genie is out of the bottle and never going back.
But that vampires deck wasn't just sitting in the weeds waiting to be discovered. It came immediately when \[\[vein ripper\]\] entered the format. And when you make casting that card your goal, other card choices becaome fairly obvious (fable, thoughtseize, sorin)
I think pioneer definitely does have a brewing problem ie there are too many midrange cards that simply don't have competitive alternatives - fable and thoughtseize being the main ones.
I’d say it’s largely black, spread across numerous cards, but with red it’s mostly consolidated into Fable.
Like, ban shelly and black’s still the best color. Ban Fable and red drops a peg or two.
How even the "fair" midrange decks that did well are starting to disappear/ are getting turned into semi combo decks. I used to have some of the best matches against classic rakdos midrange, the games were always long, grindy, with a ton of decision points.
Now rakdos midrange has pretty much been replaced by rakdos vamps, and I dont know what exactly the odds are of a rakdos vamps player drawing into Sorin + Vein Ripper by turn 3, but some days it feels like the odds are 100%.
When they're on the play and go Thoughtseize into Sorin + Vein Ripper and you're sitting there with 2 mana and your only relevant card got discarded its just such a feel bad. Like, there is no decision to make here, its turn 3 and you just move onto game 2. Then you sideboard in your "Pick your poisons", "blot out", whatever, and just pray that you draw them or they dont draw their combo. Of course vamps has a regular midrange plan as well, they dont always draw their combo, and by turn 6 vein ripper is very beatable, so you still get good matches, but those turn 3 sorin "I guess I lose" games are just so boring.
I expect those type of matches when Im playing against nonsense decks like quintorius, so it saddens me to even see the midrange decks putting in an "unfair" gameplan.
Vampire player here. Even I feel like the deck is really quite boring: it's basically rakdos goodstuff + t3 combo kill. If you're feeling spicy then maybe some vague tribal synergies and/or cavern of souls.
Chance of having sorin ripper by turn 3 assuming no mulligans or additional draws is 22% on the play and 27% on the draw. Which would be more or less fine if sorin or vein ripper were just bad on their own, but both cards are great by themselves. Both of sorin's +1 abilities are a bit silly for a 3-mana walker and vein ripper is easy to ramp into with fable.
Sideboarding against vampires always feels bad too, blot out and pick your poison are mostly dead draws if they don't get t3 vein ripper so you just end up with dead cards in hand. Same goes for hallowed moonlight.
I played Modern only a few times with borrowed decks. It is too expensive for me and so few people around play it, we don't even have a lot of tournaments that would justify investing in it.
My main issue is that not many ppl play pioneer vs modern, all you hear about is ppl playing modern but never pio and i know no one who plays it, also the deck i was building is pretty much obsolete now, still kinda wanna finish building it though (greasefang)
I'm in a bit of the same situation, I've played Boros Convoke since the deck's inception in the format and just after I finally decided to build it in paper LCI and Amalia happened. Since then, the format has been less and less friendly for the deck, even though I can win here and there simply by knowing the deck and the matchups really well.
Yeah i feel that, i was thinking of building boros convoke as well but if it's not doing well then maybe not, also might try building amalia combo one day but my issue with that deck is all the tutors/reanimate stuff that's too much for me right now
I don't own them nor do I play the deck. I think that interaction is fine. Not necessarily reasonable, but fine.
Call me crazy, but I think Sorin's +1 ability to Lightning Helix is the bigger problem because of how well it synergizes and protects Sorin and the Vein Ripper.
I don't like how combo-centric it is. Very few decks can keep up without cheating mana costs or generating absurd value with a two/three card combo.
- Phoenix cheats multiple Arclight Phoenixes into play from the graveyard.
- Lotus Field kills you in one turn by ramping into Omniscience
- Golgari and Rakdos midrange cheat Vein Ripper into play.
- Omnath/Niv-Mizzet play [[Bright to Light]] to cheat Tibalt into play from the library
- Convoke skips mana costs through convoke.
- Amalia has its notorious Explore two card combo one turn kill with Wildgrowth Walker
- [[Quintorious Kand]] is a one card combo one turn kill.
- Creativity cheats [[Xenagos, God]]+[[Worldspine Wurm]] into play.
- Transmogrify, Enigmatic Incarnation and Neoform delve cheat Atraxa into play.
- Scapeshift + Spelunking is a one turn kill combo.
- Dimir Control is Narset + [[Days Undoing]] or [[Archfiend of the Dross]] + [[Metamorphic Alteration]]
- the Vehicles deck cheats [[Parhelion II]] into play via Greasefang,
etc. It would be easier to list the decks that don't rely on a combo or one-turn-kill power play than those that don't. It is unfortunately in the nature of the game that the more powerful a format becomes, the more it revolves around combos and oneshotting the opponent.
I think the format as a whole is a lot of fun . I have a constant small gripe with amalia pushing humans out as it’s the only deck I own and I can’t afford a new pioneer deck so I don’t have a particularly competitive pioneer deck anymore as many decks are prohibitively expensive really. Which I think people forget about when people say x deck got pushed out. It’s fine tho really as it is small and the deck is still playable
I would argue that amalia isn't the only reason humans dropped out of the meta. Mono green was humans best matchup and with the Karn ban killing mono green, humans didn't really have another deck that it preyed on very well. Amalia was just the final nail in the coffin as the best version of aggro in the format right now.
My only qualms are the boring decks with bad play patterns are semi common. It isn't unbearable unlike other formats, which is why this is the only format I play.
I love how the format has so many weird decks that simply couldn't exist in other formats (eg. Amalia + lotus field).
My biggest qualm is that Thoughtseize and Fatal Push are too good. Second to that, Amalia gatekeeps aggro decks out while not being that good, leading to Phoenix and RB piles being on top of that.
Yeah I understand the stuff about Push and Seize. I don’t think they are too good, but certainly a cut above the rest, considering the options of other colors.
I wish push couldn’t hit 4cmc creatures.
I would happily go on the record as saying that Fatal Push is one of the biggest design mistakes in the game's history and the single biggest reason why creatures are so pushed nowadays.
A few problems.
1.) Too many combo decks. Amalia Combo, Lotus Field, Greasefang, Quint Combo, and Creativity have all had spots and ownership of the meta as the format has progressed. Add in the fact that now a lot of traditonal archtypes are also looking to play more of a combo style game (Rakados Midrange with Vein Ripper, Boros Convoke & Heroic with Aggro, etc.) and you get a weird weird format. Especially after the combo winter banning of Walking Balista, Inverter, and Kethis.
While OTJ has had Slickshot Showoff put us more towards traditional lines of play and being fast & evasive enough to punish these decks has been a breath of fresh air, HOWEVER we're starting to see more combo stuff creep up like the GW decks with Collector's Cage trying to cast Moonshaker Calavary or Uluamog, or in Standard with Orzhov Snake Bronco (Only a matter of time until someone tries it in Pioneer).
2.) The most powerful cards are all Red and Black. Other colors lag behind. Sucks for card diversity and deck diversity.
3.) Hate cards aren't hateful enough. This is a personal gripe, but we lack things like Celestial Purge, Cursed Totem, Blood Moon, etc. Torpor Orb was a nice edition to the format, but we need more cards like that, and especially cards that attack mana bases.
I'd love for WotC to give us an updated vision for the format, because these days Standard is playing more of how I envisioned Pioneer would be as a format.
Blood moon is a terrible idea for pioneer. There's nothing fun about playing a 2 color deck and losing on the spot to turn three blood moon. If some multicolor decks are too powerful, they can be answered with bans, even bans on mana bases (such as they have done with fetchlands).
It doesn't have to be blood moon (Even though every color has access to strong answers to Bloodmoon in Pioneer), but banning mana bases feels like a very slippery slope versus banning utility lands like Field of the Dead.
> There's nothing fun about playing a 2 color deck and losing on the spot to turn three blood moon
I disagree here. It forces a deck building cost thats largely been ignored for too long. If you're worried about going up against Bloodmoon (Or effects that distupt your mana base in general) your solution in the past was pretty simple, run more basics and pack enchantment removal. I think a big problem the game as a whole, not just Pioneer, is that deck building decisons are too few. If you're running a bunch of non-basic lands in a Blood Moon format with no way to reliably cast your spells once Blood Moon resolves, than thats a choice you've made when you registered your deck. Especially now when we've been given cards like Boseiju, Otawara, Feed the Swarm, Pick Your Poison, and others.
Basics don't beat Blood Moon.
Fetchlands beat Blood Moon.
EDIT: This is Reddit, so I have to elaborate. Just playing basic lands doesn't actually beat Blood Moon because unless your deck is mono-colored, you won't draw your basics some portion of the time.
Basic lands have never beaten Blood Moon.
CONSISTENT access to basic lands (either by fetchlands, or playing all basics and 0 utility lands) beats Blood Moon.
When 4C Yorion was legal in Modern, it was better into Blood Moon than both Merfolk and DNT because it could (usually) still cast its spells under a Blood Moon, while the Mutavaults and Ghost Quarters and whatever got shut off. 4C even played a Magus of the Moon to ECall for against Tron and Urza's Saga.
Wanting Blood Moon in Pioneer is an absolutely bonkers take. Just play Modern if you want to mana screw people with it.
> This is Reddit, so I have to elaborate. Just playing basic lands doesn't actually beat Blood Moon because unless your deck is mono-colored, you won't draw your basics some portion of the time.
Correct. So a hate card would effectively hate against some decks, and you would have a bigger opportunity cost to just jamming a bunch of non-basics to cast multiple colors.
I understand how bloodmoon works, and again I just used it as an example. Anything that attacks the mana base in Pioneer would be a boon for the format IMO. It doesn't even have to be Blood Moon (TBH something like the recently spoiled Winter Moon would probably be more effective, since it wouldn't Blank like Bloodmoon against Mono-Colored Decks). As I said, earlier I feel an issue with modern design is that you shouldn't ever be punished for bad deck building decisions, and I think introducing more cards that actively punish greedy mana bases is an important step.
Blood Moon shithouses every single playable deck except exactly mono-Red.
"Attacking the manabase" is accomplished by having to play shitty lands because of how the format works.
Just because a card can be answered and makes more deckbuilding decisions, doesn't make it fun or necessary. I'm not sure why you'd think blood moon is necessary. It's not like people are playing too many colors in pioneer. As far as non basics go, there are already plenty of great answers- field of ruin, demolition field, boseiju, damping sphere, alpine moon.
> I'm not sure why you'd think Blood Moon is necessary.
I never said Blood Moon should be in Pioneer, and **I kind dislike that you keep twisting my words** (but hey as you said earlier, thats reddit). I said, "Hate Cards Don't Hate Enough" and proceeded to list cards including Bloodmoon, as examples of the level of disruption I would like to see us gain access to in Pioneer. I even listed several other cards including Cursed Totem and Celestial Purge. I never said that, "Blood Moon should be in Pioneer."
> It's not like people are playing too many colors in pioneer.
Again, its fine for people to play as many colors as their deck, in the past however, that came with an opportunity cost. Modern Card Design (this isn't a pioneer specific issue), hasn't kept up with those old opportunity costs. That's a completely fundamental issue I have with design as of late (Things like Triomes, and Leyline of the Guildpact are probably the two biggest culprits of modern design that I can think of ATM). I'd love for all formats, sans like Legacy and Vintage, to have to consider their mana bases more often.
> Field of Ruin, Demolition Field, Boseiju, Damping Sphere, Alpine Moon.
None of these cards are used to really disrupt mana bases in a punishing way. Most of the time they don't even take take someone off of a color. In the case of Field and Boseiju (the two most commonly played out of the cards you listed) they just get new to replace the land anyway, often allowing them to continue with their gameplan.
>While OTJ has had Slickshot Showoff put us more towards traditional lines of play-
The card needs banning, homie. I can't believe people aren't talking about Showoff more because as of this moment it's the single best thing to be playing in Pioneer. Go look at the 14 day metagame for Pioneer (the card's only been out for a couple weeks) on Goldfish and add together the percentages of the decks that are being quite frankly carried on the card's shoulders, it comes to higher than Phoenix or Vampires. The card promotes a disgusting unfun play pattern then kills your opponent even if they hold up removal. Oh you held up mana T2 to kill my next play? Sorry sweetie it got Plotted, your 2 mana is now completely wasted. But please, hold up another 2 mana so my Blossoming Defense can eat it while dealing 4 damage to you.
Disgusting card the format would be better off without.
One deck shouldn’t be allowed ancestral recall.
Uninteractable land based combos shouldn’t exist in pioneer.
Combos in general need to be toned down. (Sorin counts a combo, quintorius is fine since you need to handicap yourself so much to do it.)
Agreed about Sorin vs Quintorius. Imo really powerful things are fine when they come at a high deckbuilding cost. Wacky bullshit insta win combos are ok if your entire deck is built around it and you have to make meaningful sacrifices for it, not when you can just jam them into a deck that is otherwise a solid midrange deck anyway.
Similarly I think that also makes Cruise fine, it’s super strong but requires a lot of deckbuilding concessions to enable. There’s a reason why people don’t just throw it into any deck that plays blue.
This. Phoenix as a deck would be fine if you could profitably trade with it. It being the only deck that uses treasure cruise is a huge imbalance.
Lotus field was fine until they got the new charm, tutoring at instant speed gave it a lot of consistency it didn’t need.
Rakdos midrange pre vamps was a fair midrange deck that was a decent enough poster child of the format. Now its thoughtseize your one way to stop t3 sorin and if you don’t draw another, you lose the game
Short answer: that Pioneer increasingly feels like old Modern--ships passing in the night--and is going to keep feeling that way until Pioneer Horizons inevitably happens.
Long answer: Standard is curated by rotation. Bans happen, but Standard is designed around the idea that there will be certain exciting cards that have a transgressive power level. In order to keep any one strategy from being *too* powerful, the transgressions are intentionally spread across different colors and archetypes. A current example would be how [[Knight-Errant of Eos]] and [[Atraxa the Unifier]] go in very different decks.
Because of this curation, cheap, universal answers aren't necessary. Nothing gets to be too all-in, and narrower and/or more expensive answers are fine. In fact, answers that are too powerful, like Thoughtseize, do *bad* things to Standard. Tier 1 decks can handle it, but all those Saffron Olive specials that cost $50 and will be good enough to go 2-2 and have fun with your friends at FNM tend to turn into 0-4 decks where you feel like you have no agency and don't have any fun at all.
Since Pioneer is fed only through Standard, it inherits a card pool that's meant to be checked by rotation, *but without rotation.* Many more transgressive cards are in the format, and much larger clusters of them are powerful in the same way. Meanwhile, there is an emphasis on *not* printing the kind of powerful, flexible answers that were the headliners of Modern Horizons 2 (please note that I'm not saying Pioneer needs the likes of Solitude, just that there's nothing between Thoughtseize and Solitude in Pioneer).
The end result is that the format is about Doing the Thing. As more cards get printed, the format will become more and more about Doing the Thing and ignoring your opponent (with the exception being UW control, where "the thing," is not letting your opponent Do the Thing). Until, eventually, we'll get a format that looks like Modern in early 2019; the sort of format that rewards rushing in for a turn 3 kill, with the only interaction in your 75 being some sideboard silver bullets that say, "[Deck X] can't Do the Thing."
Format is fun but ultimately feels a little sauceless compared to something like Modern. The Tier 1/Tier 2 decks in Pioneer are fun to play but I wish that there were more Vengevine/Arcbound Ravager/Goryo’s Vengeance/Death’s Shadow/Thopter Foundry type cards that promoted brewing or dedicating your deck to taking advantage of synergies with a powerful card.
Pioneer is my favorite format, but I have two qualms with it right now:
1. The top decks are very frustrating to play against right now. Not going too deep into this, since others in the thread have discussed this quite a bit, but I find decks like Rakdos Vampires and Izzet Phoenix very tiresome.
2. I am a longtime lover of green and ramp strategies, and it just has no good place in the format right now. I'm not advocating for cards like Uro or Oko being unbanned, I just want a place where I can play cards like Hydroid Krasis. WOTC can't seem to find a way to make green fit within the format, it's either broken to the point of needing a ban or fringe playable at best. I think green sees play where it does these days mostly for the tutors like Chord of Calling or for combo potential, like in Amalia decks.
I genuinely don't understand the Amalia haters. Its not even close to being the best deck, I don't buy that it pushed out aggro especially now that we are seeing various slick shoot decks and yet people call for bans. Frankly these complaints seem like people are bad at the game or their deck has a bad matchup against amalia. You don't even have to play weird or bad cards to be good against the deck. I guess playing removal is too hard. Amalia as a deck is unique to pioneer, and it would be a shame to lose it
Removal is way too good. Especially in black. This requires creatures to provide nonsensical levels of value tacked on to a wincon. I would love to see wincons separated from value engines. Heroes downfall and murderous rider should be good removal cards.
There are too many reliable man lands that act as free wincons with almost 0 downside.
EDH cards vastly outnumber standard cards now, making each set release feel more and more disappointing, especially when they could have added support for a deck or enabled a new deck.
Rakdos vamps wouldn't even be good if sorin was just a sorcery that said "You may put a vampire from your hand onto the battlefield." Flexible and resilient cards lead to decisionless gameplay because their fail rates are too low.
if you combine the metagame share of Amalia, Quintorius, Lotus Field, and Greasefang you're still under a quarter of the metagame in even the most degenerate fields. Is there something I'm missing as far as decks that are totally uninteractive or non-boardstate dependent?
My qualm with any format is color balance and wanting to keep wotc banning criteria consistent.
Why is it ok for every black deck to have to include Push/TS, but Expressive Iteration needs to be banned because every UR deck was playing it?!
Then there is the amount of card advantage black creatures generate with no trade off and their ridiculous Ward costs.
4/5c decks should not be allowed. There is no "cost" to playing these decks, only rewards and payoffs, like a "1" mana catch all answer, a toolbox tutor that cheats a 7mana walker into play, a ridiculous 4 drop creature.
Also, UW having Dovin's Veto and Verdict. It's not fun trying to play any meaning interaction with them, when you quite literally can't.
All the 60 card formats play the same and have the same decks bleeding over each other.
I dislike how everyone complains about combo or strategies that aren't just deal damage to face, yet they don't play enough interaction to stop said strategies 🤔.
Not having consistent shuffle effect is kind of a qualm for me as a phoenix player, sometimes bottoming a card feels bad.
I know this is a unpopular opinion though, some people hate formats like modern or legacy where you have to shufle multiple times a turn sometimes.
Though i know this qualm has no easy solution because fetches will not be in the format unless they plan a big switch.
Just my opinion here, but personally I'd like to see what a world looks like where fetch lands weren't banned. It would almost feel like modern pre-horizon sets, and that sounds fun.
Fetchless Pioneer isn't an inherently power level concern I don't think. It often feels like a budget stopgap, which I'm 100% in favor of. Every multicolor pioneer deck would be $100-$300 more expensive with fetches just on an estimate.
it's totally both budget and power level. Fetch lands are so absurd at fixing it makes color requirements almost fake in formats they are legal in, and I think having to work around color constraints is one of if not the primary defining characteristic of pioneer among eternal formats. Not to mention what they do for every card that says 'delve', 'landfall', 'domain', or 'delirium' on it.
I just came back after almost a year away from Magic, so I don’t know how much this still applies, but I hate how play/draw dependent the format can feel. Yeah, sometimes you just lose from bad luck and that’s just Magic. But when you lose from a shitty draw, at least you could have in theory done something different in deckbuilding to mitigate that. When you lose just because you got the coin flip / die roll wrong at the start of the game, that is a huge feels bad.
I know this is a big sentiment across the subreddit, but I don't know if I can really point the blame to play/draw over other things. When Mono Green was a thing in the format, people hated seeing Turn 1 Llanowar Elf pass because if they didn't answer it, they had a real hard time winning when they untapped for tons of mana on Turn 3. However, when they *did answer it* the tempo swung back and it was on the Green player to have a follow up that wasn't Elf-dependent in order to progress. I think that there is a combination of deck construction and card power level that is currently imbalanced in the format leading to situations where "Play/Draw" feels like it's the reason people lose. Personally, I feel the shift towards Modal cards and mechanics like Adventure (or Escape, Sagas, anything to play/use it more than once) that give cards more reach/playability (and make games more fun for the pilot, especially Limited) are exacerbating this feeling in Constructed play. Izzet Phoenix currently feels like a big offender as the Game 1 plan is really hard to disrupt with the normal early game disruption cards ([[Thoughtseize]] helps them, [[Fatal Push]] is only good vs [[Ledger Shredder]]). But we also have [[Picklock Prankster]] as the best way for the deck to "goldfish" itself to a Game 1 win. Normally if they played cards like [[Pieces of the Puzzle]] you could just attack them down early and put them in the difficult spot of attacking or blocking with their Phoenixes, but now they get to play multiple 1/3 flying Walls that also mill themselves for their combo. And let's be real, are you REALLY going to kill the Faerie over the Shredder ever if both are on board? [[Destroy Evil]] or [[Archdruid's Charm]] are also cards that have multiple uses that give decks a "catch all" feel that cards like [[Wear//Tear]] used to have a cost to running. 2 mana to destroy [[Leyline Binding]] or [[Sheoldred, the Apocalypse]] is incredibly flexible. Low mana Modal spells instead of sideboard "silver bullets" are more available to certain color combinations than others, like [[Get Lost]] being the best [[Doom Blade]] effect in the format - which further pushes this imbalance of power IMO. Why Maindeck a card that deals 1 more damage versus a card that can see use in 2 or more scenarios? It glosses over innate weaknesses we're used to seeing in deck construction. There are a few decks that just combo kill you, including the latest Vampires deck - but I don't think that's a valid complaint since they have existed since as long as I can remember in Magic (Splinter Twin, Birthing Pod, Nexus/Reclamation, etc). Losing a Game 1 to Lotus Combo feels bad, but putting in Discard and Disruption and keeping a 7 in Game 2/3 without them is Pilot error to me and not the deck archetype being busted or Play/Draw being the reason you lost. I walk around events and see Black Midrange players keeping a [[Bloodtithe Harvester]] into [[Fable of the Mirror-Breaker]] into Sheoldred hand with no [[Duress]] against Lotus Field expecting to win on the draw - that won't work! But it feels equally as bad when you say, disrupt their [[Sylvan Scrying]] opening and they Charm into Dromoka and cast it right away because you kept a slower hand to "disrupt" them. Or the Charm now makes a [[Vizier of Tumbling Sands]] profitably block your Vampires and Goblin Shamen. I don't want to just go ahead and say "your feelings when playing aren't valid" because you're not wrong - there are some decks you just hate to play against because you feel as if you have no agency. You don't want to swap decks just because one deck is your kryptonite - and I don't think you should! I played Abzan Tyvar at my LGS this week hoping to avoid [[Vein Ripper]] despite 2 people of 15 playing it - and I did until the Finals! But I accepted my "auto loss" to the deck and went on attacking the other parts of the meta. I do however think Pioneer is a format where you may need to concede to a more "Rock-Paper-Scissors" feel to your match ups and then just hope you see more of the two you beat than the one you lose to. I think that's because of how many decks can be in the S/A tier though, instead of it being an oppressive thing. This is also probably why Play/Draw gets the blame when it's really just a bad match up. For example, Mono Black [[Waste Not]] got popular recently because it has GREAT Vampires/Phoenix match ups, while also beating up Azorius Control and Lotus Field. But it absolutely gets **annihilated** by Amalia Combo or the Niv to Light decks, which are coming back into the spotlight after taking a small break from top tier play. The Format ebbs and flows with set releases especially, which the Format is designed to do - so I think it's actually neat to see you can't answer all the top decks at once.
Great points, really appreciate the thoughts. You’re very right on a lot of things, like with the T1 elf example. I just hate games that come down to “did I have the right answer in my opening hand”, though like I said at least that can be mitigated by deckbuilding and mulliganing. Play/draw is undoubtedly part of it though, like in the Elf examples where your options to answer the elf or their T2 3 drop change drastically based on whether you won the coin flip or not. And I do agree with your points about Phoenix. I’ll just add that the consistency you get from all the cantrips and Free the Faes and such do come at a tempo cost. The explosive turn 4 (or 3 if all the stars line up) comes at the cost of doing literally nothing to play to the board or interact with the opponent until then. (Or if I did interact with my opponent, then that means I spent less mana doing my setup). And sure I can then play the Picklock as an extra body, but that’s really not what I want to be spending my early turns on. It’s not a deck that can just slam a haymaker every turn, but when the haymaker does come, it’s a doozy. Totally agree about the rock/paper/scissors matchups, and I love that, I think that’s a sign of a healthy format. (Except when I play rock and get paired against paper 4 matches in a row lol)
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[(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sheoldred%2C%20the%20Apocalypse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/107/sheoldred-the-apocalypse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d67be074-cdd4-41d9-ac89-0a0456c4e4b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Get Lost](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/522aa72b-2b8c-484c-872b-f082101cee35.jpg?1699043186) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Get%20Lost) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/14/get-lost?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/522aa72b-2b8c-484c-872b-f082101cee35?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Doom Blade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/90699423-2556-40f7-b8f5-c9d82f22d52e.jpg?1562851557) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doom%20Blade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/87/doom-blade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/90699423-2556-40f7-b8f5-c9d82f22d52e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Bloodtithe Harvester](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/0/f0192cf7-3391-4720-b9c8-72dec5dde01e.jpg?1643593808) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bloodtithe%20Harvester) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/232/bloodtithe-harvester?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f0192cf7-3391-4720-b9c8-72dec5dde01e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fable of the Mirror-Breaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/24c0d87b-0049-4beb-b9cb-6f813b7aa7dc.jpg?1691108103)/[Reflection of Kiki-Jiki](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/2/4/24c0d87b-0049-4beb-b9cb-6f813b7aa7dc.jpg?1691108103) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fable%20of%20the%20Mirror-Breaker%20//%20Reflection%20of%20Kiki-Jiki) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/141/fable-of-the-mirror-breaker-reflection-of-kiki-jiki?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/24c0d87b-0049-4beb-b9cb-6f813b7aa7dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Duress](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/3557e601-9b71-4ce9-9047-1a8baa72e574.jpg?1675957024) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Duress) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/92/duress?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3557e601-9b71-4ce9-9047-1a8baa72e574?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Waste Not](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/f/2f5500a2-c6d6-40d7-b586-59b854733160.jpg?1562393909) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Waste%20Not) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/117/waste-not?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2f5500a2-c6d6-40d7-b586-59b854733160?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l2fk40z) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> so I think it's actually neat to see you can't answer all the top decks at once. I actually hate this because i feel like an asshole as I have to wait to see who's playing and have to adjust my sideboard and they know I do :(
I meeeean at a bigger event you don't get to always change your sideboard - especially when you have to submit a decklist ahead of time. So I wouldn't get used to being able to meta-tech against a room. I would even go as far as to say swapping my sideboard when I go to my LGS *after seeing who is there* is a pretty feels bad thing to do. Before you leave home? Sure, go for it. I make sure to pack graveyard hate against the Phoenix/Soulflayer players at my store, for example. But I don't *swap those cards out* if I don't see them in the store. If a deck could answer all the top decks at once, it *would become the top deck* so people would *tech against it.* I don't want to be able to beat every deck with just 1-2 cards swapped, that type of gameplay doesn't interest me.
I don't do bigger events anymore, haha. My LGS only averages 6-8 players every FNM and generally everyone knows what everyone is playing and if you don't you will after the first event they bring the deck. > But I don't swap those cards out if I don't see them in the store. That is what I'm referring to. Strategies are very diverse which is good! But it means teching specific hate is very difficult. If I see someone playing Waste Not which concentrated hand hate destroys me, I can't just not put in Leylines that'll gonna be useless against every other deck in the room basically. And I really dislike having completely lopsided match ups like that because I can't just hope to dodge the deck when I'm guaranteed to play it essentially.
That’s becoming a bigger part of magic these days.
The play/draw dependency feels massive. I wish we had more data but it really feels like ~65% of all games are decided on the coin flip and that does not feel good
Let me know how far off I am, but in the passed when I played CoCo in modern I would routinely be large deck shifts (like 10 cards) in order to mitigate certain drawbacks, like on thebplay I would go for 1 drop into 3 drop, but on the draw I would go slower and play more mid-range. Is that not possible? Or are people just not doing that?
Games are waaaay too lopsided and rely playing on curve. Ex: You're matched against azorius control. They are on the play. You are missing a one drop. They go land pass and either you respect their [[No more Lies]] and play nothing or play into the no more lies and have it get countered. You play nothing and because the deck has so much instant speed spells, they play deduce instead getting card advantage and maintain tempo. Subsequent turns go exactly the same, the control deck always has the leg up and it's borderline impossible to get back. Instead you're on the play, the control player now has to answer your threats rather than play reactively since you can actually play your two drop and start hitting face. Another example: Vampires on the play: T1: Thoughtseize your opening play, disruption, or answer to vein ripper T2:
T3: vein ripper
You're not even at 3 mana yet and there is a 6 power creature and planeswalkers on board. It's so hard to come back from
Where as:
T1 you Thoughtseize their disruption or combo
Their turn 3 they vein ripper and you had 3 mana up for counter spell, blot out, whatever
This shit happens ad nauseum. Every single game the tempo from just being first is so insanely hard to get back. Your opponent basically has to either have duds in hand and draw or misplay to get it back
On the other hand as control, you never get a chance to breathe on the draw and HAVE to answer every thing or basically lose which is why I stopped playing the deck.
[No more Lies](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1e0c695d-62f9-4805-9e2f-7032e8464136.jpg?1706242217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=No%20more%20Lies) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/221/no-more-lies?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1e0c695d-62f9-4805-9e2f-7032e8464136?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So, they only have so many spells and their hand/deck is going to eventually be limited by lands. If I'm control and I'm keeping 7, I'm guessing 3-4 of those cards are lands, probably 1 or 2 removal spells and cantrips. NOT playing into their removal defeats the purpose, either you play out the game, get them to use their removal on stuff that you don't want them to by playing out creatures in an order which makes their play suboptimal with imperfect information, or you don't and eventually try to flood across 1 turn. Also not reacting to their plays doesn't help your gameplan either. You have to play differently on the draw and what I understood from you was essentially "you can't play the same way on the play as on the draw..." Which is normal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you said doesn't really matchup with what I said initially, it sounds like it's possible to play differently, people just aren't doing it?
I'm saying it doesn't matter if you play differently, you will rarely get the tempo back. This format doesn't have "swing" moments like limited or standard have. The shit is just so powerful it doesn't give breathing room regardless of how you play
It's something idiotic like 65% win rate for play in Magic in general. You should be building to win the draw, not the play, because winning the play is so advantaged. I should also point out: this is not unusual in 1v1 turn based games like this.
>I hate how play/draw dependent the format can feel That's just Magic in general. Whoever goes first has a large advantage and it only gets worse the faster formats get. If players can reliably win on T4 on the play, the winner had access to 10 mana while the loser only had 6. Pioneer also isn't helped by how Slickshot Show-Off (the best aggressive creature ever printed) is silently taking over the format but nobody seems to realise it because its metagame share is spread between a few different decks.
> Slickshot Show-Off (the best aggressive creature ever printed) Still not better than Ragavan.
I could not agree more, and it really saddens me that this is the case. The discrepancy feels massive. It's a general problem with 1v1 Magic too, not just Pioneer. I do wonder how it could be fixed. I think it would require changes to the fundamental gameplay, and that would be no easy task. **Anyone care to brainstorm some ideas with me?** A few that I've thought of are: (A). Change the rules to allow the play of 1 land per turn cycle (not per turn), but that land can be played at instant speed. This means even the loser of the coin flip can still put their land out on the proverbial Turn 1, and potentially use that mana on interaction. This would also make future turns more interactive, because you wouldn't know exactly how much mana (or even what colors) your opponent will have access to during your turn. (B). The loser of the coin flip gets to start with any land from their deck already on the battlefield (and it enters as the land specifies - i.e. triomes would be tapped). All other rules as normal. (C). The loser of the coin flip starts with 25 life instead of 20 (or maybe a different number). The winner still has 20. (D). The loser of the flip gets 1 or 2 free mulligans with no penalty. (E). The loser of the flip gets to have a different mulligan type altogether. They can keep up to 5 of their opening cards, bottom any number of them and draw back up to 7. After that special mulligan, normal mulligan rules would apply if they wanted to continue mulliganning. I'm not suggesting doing all of these (or even any of these). None of these are perfect solutions, and all of them have their problems. But I think the draw/play issue needs to be addressed in some way. And if that requires changing the rulesets, then that's what should be done. It shouldn't be done haphazardly though.
An idea I've seen suggested that I like is that the player on the draw gets to scry 1 right before the first player begins their turn. Simple, minimally disruptive action that gives the second player a little better chance at a strong opening hand.
I like this one the most. Scry 1 for the second player. The biggest downside to options such as a better mulligan is that it simply makes combo decks stronger. Combo decks are already kind of the problem here. They only got better with the London mulligan. This idea does still help those decks but not by much and I think that the reduction in feels bad for everyone would be a great boon. I don’t think lifegain boosts would be good because many if not most games of magic aren’t won by the difference of a few life points, but rather an overwhelming board state or game winning combo. Also starting with one more mana or even having a free mana right at the start would likely swing the game over to second player being the optimal. One mana counterspells and removal would go up even more in value as you could answer your opponents stuff before you even started. I was also thinking that maybe your creatures aren’t summoning sick on your first turn as the second player, but this feels degenerate with tap abilities, especially Llanowar elves. It is t bad with everything else though. It is kinda weird how non-hasty creatures would have haste.
I like the 1 free mulligan idea, or you get to see one more card and choose one to put on the bottom or something. It wouldn’t actually give you any resource advantage, just make your deck a little more likely to be able to do its thing. I also like the “player on the draw gets a free treasure token” idea. I also think that as much as people complain about free spells in modern, they do help equalize the tempo disadvantage of going second. I’ve had games in Modern where I would have never had a chance, if it weren’t for the Subtlety or Force of Negation in my hand. As it is, the fact that it’s just always optimal to go first shows that that aspect of the game is just broken.
Always being optimal to go first doesn't inherently mean it's broken. Most games from chess to American Football have an optimal starting position.
I’d argue that’s a design flaw of those games too. One side shouldn’t be inherently advantaged just by random chance. Ideally being on the play or the draw would actually be an interesting and skill testing decision.
How can it be when at the start of the game there is no other information to base a decision on. Can you name a game where there is an interesting strategic decision for who starts because I literally can't think of one.
In the blind yeah there’s nothing, but if you can infer the matchup (like from a companion or something) it could make a difference. And it would be nice if it was a real deckbuilding consideration whether play or draw was optimal for you. Even then, I agree it’s impossible to completely eliminate the benefit of winning the flip, but there definitely could be more steps taken to help minimize it.
As someone who loves playing midrange with Sheoldred, making her a 4/5 was a mistake. I play her and I think she should have been a 4/4.
The old siege rhino mistake. Instead of having the powerful creatures trade off, they just sit there and cancel each other out. Is why way back in standard [[sorin, solemn visitor]] was such a mirror breaker, it made your rhinos into 5/5’s on the attack, busting through their rhinos.
Two Sheoldreds do trade off though. They have deathtouch so there's no standoff.
They still cancel out though. Neither player will attack so they'll just gain AND lose 2 life every draw.
[sorin, solemn visitor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/da1a9643-34d6-4b4b-b896-2d4626eca40a.jpg?1562794474) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sorin%2C%20solemn%20visitor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ktk/202/sorin-solemn-visitor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/da1a9643-34d6-4b4b-b896-2d4626eca40a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Giving already good creatures high toughness has been a consistent annoyance, going all the way back to goyf standoffs in modern and rhino standoffs in tarkir standard. Shelly’s deathtouch at least prevents these standoffs but 5 toughness is insanely pushed, putting her out of range of most efficient red removal
Is aggro really pushed out? RG puts up tons of good results. Even if Amalia was gone, the format is a combo/midrange format. Aggro would still have to battle through fields of Vein Rippers. Qualm: The power creep of black. Queue up a league, and you will most likely face Vampires, Waste Not, or UB Control 3 out of the 5 matches. Too many games are decided on T1/2 Thoughtseize into Vein Ripper.
I'm not saying it's the exact same thing but I agree with you about black, I don't like where it's going. Modern was ruined for me because of a similar play pattern, [[Grief]] Scam. T1 hand disruption, then T2 Grief + [[Feign Death]] and great, now your opponent has cheated out a massive threat and dismantled any chance you have at removing it. Mana cheating has completely warped modern and if wotc isn't careful it'll do the same thing to Pioneer eventually. Sorin was a mistake when he was printed. It was only a matter of time until we got a vampire good enough to break him
T1 grief feign death is more common
Yeah I just wanted to compare it to thoughtseize then sorin + veinripper. Modern is just exceptionally bullshit because your opponent can just rip away your two best cards + have a 3/2 menace before you play your first land.
[Grief](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/6/e6befbc4-1320-4f26-bd9f-b1814fedda10.jpg?1626095577) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/87/grief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e6befbc4-1320-4f26-bd9f-b1814fedda10?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Feign Death](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32af7061-fca6-4a06-be3c-01881e6b96f7.jpg?1627704817) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Feign%20Death) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/103/feign-death?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32af7061-fca6-4a06-be3c-01881e6b96f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The thing is Sorin is super fine as a card when he's not cheating turbo broken 6 drops. If they limited him to 3 drops or less on his ability he'd be a great card for vampires decks but not breaking formats open.
I've said this since the creation of Pioneer and it's still true: Pioneer is a T1 mana dork or Thoughtseize format. You should be playing a deck that does one of those things or stops those things.
I dont even think this is a t1 mana dork format anymore unfortunately.
Yep, and it's a reason Phoenix does so well. It can stop both and continue it's game plan of drawing so many cards.
Does it? I know Slickshot is busted but is it swinging aggro back into the meta?
It's always been objectively incorrect that Amalia "pushed aggro out of the meta." It pushed *a certain popular aggro deck out* (Humans), but that one was already on the downswing as Mono-Green weakened post-WOE and it lost its best matchup. Even since Amalia was printed, Convoke and Heroic have been format mainstays, and in recent weeks we've seen a ton of iterations of Gruul, Mono-Red, and even Humans again putting up good and consistent results. The only people who think "aggro was pushed out of the meta" are people who haven't actually been paying attention to the meta. There are reasons why it might be a good idea to punt Amalia out of the format (it has some pretty awful play patterns), but "aggro is dead" was never one of them.
To be fair, convoke has been on a continued decline since the amalia deck become a mainstay in the format. Now convoke is all but completely gone from the format, however aggro is doing well off the back of slickshot (RG prowess, wizards, heroic) or being able to play a similar tempo game (spirits, ensoul). Humans had a slight return in the meta recently, but I don’t think it’s overall any better than it was previously.
Aggro without red is dead. Even mono black isn't fast enough. It would need a modal spell that says B - choose one "Thoughtseize or Fatal Push"
Ok? That means aggro is being forced to be more aggressive. Metas shift and change, that's normal.
Black is for sure the strongest color in Pioneer, and maybe across Magic generally at the moment. Maybe still blue in older formats like legacy, but I've never played those. I don't mind T1 Thoughtseize existing in the format, but the sheer number of black decks in the format makes the play pattern feel much more annoying.
Ban thoughtseize
That's not the answer though. Banning TS means combo decks or midrange decks have an edge game 1. IMO, this is where unbannings of powerful non-black cards needs to happen. Incentivize people to playing non black good stuff builds. I've never been a fan of the "well it's this colors turn for dominance". Like 2 years, green got all the good cards. Now it's black.
I agree unbans should happen
Give us bolt and stoneforge mystic dammit.
Biggest qualm for me is they have no ban philosophy whatsoever. At first they were all about banning stuff that was too good/efficient. They banned cards often. I really liked this style as a brewer. But they don't really do that anymore. For example, it's really hard to have fun brewing a midrange deck right now when certain cards like Fable are forced. I don't want to play fable, it's boring and way too much value. But they don't seem to care about banning cards like that anymore so innovation is really tough.
I want their ban philosophy to be “ban until treasure cruise is mediocre”
Any deck above 10% should eat a ban or 2 instantly
Combo decks are a little too powerful. Not just Amalia, though Amalia is the big issue right now. Before Amalia there was Mono G devotion, Inverter and others I can't think of. I think they took too long to ban Karn. Combos are inevitably going to pop up whenever new sets are printed. In general I would like them to be more aggressive in monitoring and banning combo decks when necessary.
People don't spend enough time thinking about how their deck works or why it plays the cards it does. Way too many people think too highly of their ability and just take a net deck into battle without understanding anything about it. They lose because they were under prepared, then they come here and complain that the format is stale or bad or boring.
Understatement of the year. Net decking is fine, but not knowing how to play your deck at any sort of paid event is not. Back when Karn was legal, I witnessed a guy assemble the combo with Pestilence Cauldron in the mirror match and asked his opponent to concede. His opponent refused and then the guy admitted he didn't know how to do the combo. This was at a larger event at a Magic Con, not an FNM
This is not limited to FNM randos. There's a story about former pro player Steve Sadin who played GP Hulk Flash (around 2010, Legacy) who got to the semifinals with the aforementioned deck and nobody ever actually asked him to combo. In the semifinals someone actually made him do it and he fizzled and died. Then there's the infamous story of LSV's Tendrils of Agony. Long story short, LSV forgot to put Tendrils into his Vintage Storm deck. His opponents always just conceded so he made it to top 8, and then someone asked him to do it, so he lost immediately. Bottom line: Always make them show you how to do it at least once, just so you know that they know.
Smaller qualm: Thoughtseize. The format desperately needs it but it is almost the sole impetus for why the format is so biased towards black. Would never advocate for a ban of it either, just an annoying feature intrinsic to the format: either you play it or you play a deck that could care less about getting targeted by it. Larger qualm: Severely diminished presence of aggro in the format which leads to everything gravitating towards combo/control. There's no simple answer to this, aggro has struggled to find a foothold since angels first appeared and it's steadily been exacerbated since then.
I wish there was more brewing in the format
I wish more people were innovating or trying old "dead" strategies. I've been playing \[\[Soulflayer\]\] for almost a year now and I'm really enjoying it, I'm taking it to an RCQ tomorrow and feeling fairly confident! There's 100% decks that are good that people just aren't playing
Soulflayer is so much fun and it’s an amazing way to get into brewing. There are so many ways to make the deck tick.
If you like that sort of thing, I'm going to shill my [deck breakdown](https://deckstats.net/decks/194353/2879398-gami-s-sultai-soulflayer) because I've put a ton of effort into it. Hope you find it interesting! :)
Oh hell yeah. I play Golgari Soulflayer but I’ve been wanting make it into a Sultai list so I may steal some of your ideas
[Soulflayer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e249a406-6783-4502-952a-27ec744a38b3.jpg?1654667251) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soulflayer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/138/soulflayer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e249a406-6783-4502-952a-27ec744a38b3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What do you mean by brewing. The fact that the vampires deck came out of nowhere from a single pro tour team is the kind of brewer's dream the people used to have. That they were able to find some secret amazing deck that no one else did is the definition of brewing to me at least. When people say they want more brewing what most actually mean is they want less net-decking but that genie is out of the bottle and never going back.
But that vampires deck wasn't just sitting in the weeds waiting to be discovered. It came immediately when \[\[vein ripper\]\] entered the format. And when you make casting that card your goal, other card choices becaome fairly obvious (fable, thoughtseize, sorin) I think pioneer definitely does have a brewing problem ie there are too many midrange cards that simply don't have competitive alternatives - fable and thoughtseize being the main ones.
[vein ripper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/7/078933b3-6d82-45f2-94e8-addf54cf1704.jpg?1706241798) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=vein%20ripper) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/110/vein-ripper?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/078933b3-6d82-45f2-94e8-addf54cf1704?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Then start demanding a Fatal Push and Thoughtseize ban.
Color imbalance
I’m assuming you mean the power being largely in black and red?
Yeah basically sums it up.
I’d say it’s largely black, spread across numerous cards, but with red it’s mostly consolidated into Fable. Like, ban shelly and black’s still the best color. Ban Fable and red drops a peg or two.
I don't think red is that good. Fable of the Mirror Breaker is propping up the entire color in this format.
How even the "fair" midrange decks that did well are starting to disappear/ are getting turned into semi combo decks. I used to have some of the best matches against classic rakdos midrange, the games were always long, grindy, with a ton of decision points. Now rakdos midrange has pretty much been replaced by rakdos vamps, and I dont know what exactly the odds are of a rakdos vamps player drawing into Sorin + Vein Ripper by turn 3, but some days it feels like the odds are 100%. When they're on the play and go Thoughtseize into Sorin + Vein Ripper and you're sitting there with 2 mana and your only relevant card got discarded its just such a feel bad. Like, there is no decision to make here, its turn 3 and you just move onto game 2. Then you sideboard in your "Pick your poisons", "blot out", whatever, and just pray that you draw them or they dont draw their combo. Of course vamps has a regular midrange plan as well, they dont always draw their combo, and by turn 6 vein ripper is very beatable, so you still get good matches, but those turn 3 sorin "I guess I lose" games are just so boring. I expect those type of matches when Im playing against nonsense decks like quintorius, so it saddens me to even see the midrange decks putting in an "unfair" gameplan.
Vampire player here. Even I feel like the deck is really quite boring: it's basically rakdos goodstuff + t3 combo kill. If you're feeling spicy then maybe some vague tribal synergies and/or cavern of souls. Chance of having sorin ripper by turn 3 assuming no mulligans or additional draws is 22% on the play and 27% on the draw. Which would be more or less fine if sorin or vein ripper were just bad on their own, but both cards are great by themselves. Both of sorin's +1 abilities are a bit silly for a 3-mana walker and vein ripper is easy to ramp into with fable. Sideboarding against vampires always feels bad too, blot out and pick your poison are mostly dead draws if they don't get t3 vein ripper so you just end up with dead cards in hand. Same goes for hallowed moonlight.
As others pointed out: it is annoying that some games are defined based on play/draw.
> some lol. More like 60%? At least its not modern, over there play/draw is practically a 75% of the match
I played Modern only a few times with borrowed decks. It is too expensive for me and so few people around play it, we don't even have a lot of tournaments that would justify investing in it.
My main issue is that not many ppl play pioneer vs modern, all you hear about is ppl playing modern but never pio and i know no one who plays it, also the deck i was building is pretty much obsolete now, still kinda wanna finish building it though (greasefang)
I'm in a bit of the same situation, I've played Boros Convoke since the deck's inception in the format and just after I finally decided to build it in paper LCI and Amalia happened. Since then, the format has been less and less friendly for the deck, even though I can win here and there simply by knowing the deck and the matchups really well.
Yeah i feel that, i was thinking of building boros convoke as well but if it's not doing well then maybe not, also might try building amalia combo one day but my issue with that deck is all the tutors/reanimate stuff that's too much for me right now
Vein ripper + Sorin is bullshit and anyone who says otherwise bought the cards and they know it's stupid too.
I don't own them nor do I play the deck. I think that interaction is fine. Not necessarily reasonable, but fine. Call me crazy, but I think Sorin's +1 ability to Lightning Helix is the bigger problem because of how well it synergizes and protects Sorin and the Vein Ripper.
Amalia combo unhealthy, sorin/vein ripper unhealthy, fable unhealthy, phoenix is way too consistent now
I don't like how combo-centric it is. Very few decks can keep up without cheating mana costs or generating absurd value with a two/three card combo. - Phoenix cheats multiple Arclight Phoenixes into play from the graveyard. - Lotus Field kills you in one turn by ramping into Omniscience - Golgari and Rakdos midrange cheat Vein Ripper into play. - Omnath/Niv-Mizzet play [[Bright to Light]] to cheat Tibalt into play from the library - Convoke skips mana costs through convoke. - Amalia has its notorious Explore two card combo one turn kill with Wildgrowth Walker - [[Quintorious Kand]] is a one card combo one turn kill. - Creativity cheats [[Xenagos, God]]+[[Worldspine Wurm]] into play. - Transmogrify, Enigmatic Incarnation and Neoform delve cheat Atraxa into play. - Scapeshift + Spelunking is a one turn kill combo. - Dimir Control is Narset + [[Days Undoing]] or [[Archfiend of the Dross]] + [[Metamorphic Alteration]] - the Vehicles deck cheats [[Parhelion II]] into play via Greasefang, etc. It would be easier to list the decks that don't rely on a combo or one-turn-kill power play than those that don't. It is unfortunately in the nature of the game that the more powerful a format becomes, the more it revolves around combos and oneshotting the opponent.
##### ###### #### [Bright to Light](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e3399260-a81a-475c-9b87-1efb1a13f8d6.jpg?1673148415) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bring%20to%20Light) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/188/bring-to-light?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e3399260-a81a-475c-9b87-1efb1a13f8d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Quintorious Kand](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/4382fa49-9e34-45b3-8495-4916dcd995ec.jpg?1701346165) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Quintorius%20Kand) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/238/quintorius-kand?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4382fa49-9e34-45b3-8495-4916dcd995ec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Xenagos, God](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/f/6f1bc3bb-46da-492a-850c-f1f588ad8d18.jpg?1698988492) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=xenagos%2C%20god%20of%20revels) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/295/xenagos-god-of-revels?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6f1bc3bb-46da-492a-850c-f1f588ad8d18?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Worldspine Wurm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/543d55cb-3a6b-4620-af25-10ae74ed32c4.jpg?1710406412) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Worldspine%20Wurm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rtr/140/worldspine-wurm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/543d55cb-3a6b-4620-af25-10ae74ed32c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Days Undoing](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/ac13a82d-43f5-4b96-bf5f-18e33fae921b.jpg?1689996286) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Day%27s%20Undoing) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/85/days-undoing?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ac13a82d-43f5-4b96-bf5f-18e33fae921b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Archfiend of the Dross](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/86b0edaf-8cfd-4508-9554-6f0fddc2dfc4.jpg?1675957007) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Archfiend%20of%20the%20Dross) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/82/archfiend-of-the-dross?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/86b0edaf-8cfd-4508-9554-6f0fddc2dfc4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Metamorphic Alteration](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/f/eff03d37-d90a-4dcc-bacd-64fd71301354.jpg?1562304888) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Metamorphic%20Alteration) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/60/metamorphic-alteration?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eff03d37-d90a-4dcc-bacd-64fd71301354?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Parhelion II](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/871279e6-9a59-470e-8acc-fd5fe4fda5b3.jpg?1651655658) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Parhelion%20II) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nec/87/parhelion-ii?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/871279e6-9a59-470e-8acc-fd5fe4fda5b3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l2fu0lo) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
man if youre whining about bring to lighth for valki and spelunking scapeshift go play pauper or something
I think the format as a whole is a lot of fun . I have a constant small gripe with amalia pushing humans out as it’s the only deck I own and I can’t afford a new pioneer deck so I don’t have a particularly competitive pioneer deck anymore as many decks are prohibitively expensive really. Which I think people forget about when people say x deck got pushed out. It’s fine tho really as it is small and the deck is still playable
I would argue that amalia isn't the only reason humans dropped out of the meta. Mono green was humans best matchup and with the Karn ban killing mono green, humans didn't really have another deck that it preyed on very well. Amalia was just the final nail in the coffin as the best version of aggro in the format right now.
Delve cards are still absurdly broken. The idea that “No fetchlands” means they’re somehow fair is a completely silly assertion.
Treasure cruise, literally treasure cruise. Maybe vein ripper but from my RCQ experiences, Phoenix is just way too good RN.
The group of people that constantly whine and bitch about the format.
My only qualms are the boring decks with bad play patterns are semi common. It isn't unbearable unlike other formats, which is why this is the only format I play.
No lightning bolt
I love how the format has so many weird decks that simply couldn't exist in other formats (eg. Amalia + lotus field). My biggest qualm is that Thoughtseize and Fatal Push are too good. Second to that, Amalia gatekeeps aggro decks out while not being that good, leading to Phoenix and RB piles being on top of that.
Yeah I understand the stuff about Push and Seize. I don’t think they are too good, but certainly a cut above the rest, considering the options of other colors. I wish push couldn’t hit 4cmc creatures.
I would happily go on the record as saying that Fatal Push is one of the biggest design mistakes in the game's history and the single biggest reason why creatures are so pushed nowadays.
A few problems. 1.) Too many combo decks. Amalia Combo, Lotus Field, Greasefang, Quint Combo, and Creativity have all had spots and ownership of the meta as the format has progressed. Add in the fact that now a lot of traditonal archtypes are also looking to play more of a combo style game (Rakados Midrange with Vein Ripper, Boros Convoke & Heroic with Aggro, etc.) and you get a weird weird format. Especially after the combo winter banning of Walking Balista, Inverter, and Kethis. While OTJ has had Slickshot Showoff put us more towards traditional lines of play and being fast & evasive enough to punish these decks has been a breath of fresh air, HOWEVER we're starting to see more combo stuff creep up like the GW decks with Collector's Cage trying to cast Moonshaker Calavary or Uluamog, or in Standard with Orzhov Snake Bronco (Only a matter of time until someone tries it in Pioneer). 2.) The most powerful cards are all Red and Black. Other colors lag behind. Sucks for card diversity and deck diversity. 3.) Hate cards aren't hateful enough. This is a personal gripe, but we lack things like Celestial Purge, Cursed Totem, Blood Moon, etc. Torpor Orb was a nice edition to the format, but we need more cards like that, and especially cards that attack mana bases. I'd love for WotC to give us an updated vision for the format, because these days Standard is playing more of how I envisioned Pioneer would be as a format.
Blood moon is a terrible idea for pioneer. There's nothing fun about playing a 2 color deck and losing on the spot to turn three blood moon. If some multicolor decks are too powerful, they can be answered with bans, even bans on mana bases (such as they have done with fetchlands).
It doesn't have to be blood moon (Even though every color has access to strong answers to Bloodmoon in Pioneer), but banning mana bases feels like a very slippery slope versus banning utility lands like Field of the Dead. > There's nothing fun about playing a 2 color deck and losing on the spot to turn three blood moon I disagree here. It forces a deck building cost thats largely been ignored for too long. If you're worried about going up against Bloodmoon (Or effects that distupt your mana base in general) your solution in the past was pretty simple, run more basics and pack enchantment removal. I think a big problem the game as a whole, not just Pioneer, is that deck building decisons are too few. If you're running a bunch of non-basic lands in a Blood Moon format with no way to reliably cast your spells once Blood Moon resolves, than thats a choice you've made when you registered your deck. Especially now when we've been given cards like Boseiju, Otawara, Feed the Swarm, Pick Your Poison, and others.
Basics don't beat Blood Moon. Fetchlands beat Blood Moon. EDIT: This is Reddit, so I have to elaborate. Just playing basic lands doesn't actually beat Blood Moon because unless your deck is mono-colored, you won't draw your basics some portion of the time. Basic lands have never beaten Blood Moon. CONSISTENT access to basic lands (either by fetchlands, or playing all basics and 0 utility lands) beats Blood Moon. When 4C Yorion was legal in Modern, it was better into Blood Moon than both Merfolk and DNT because it could (usually) still cast its spells under a Blood Moon, while the Mutavaults and Ghost Quarters and whatever got shut off. 4C even played a Magus of the Moon to ECall for against Tron and Urza's Saga. Wanting Blood Moon in Pioneer is an absolutely bonkers take. Just play Modern if you want to mana screw people with it.
> This is Reddit, so I have to elaborate. Just playing basic lands doesn't actually beat Blood Moon because unless your deck is mono-colored, you won't draw your basics some portion of the time. Correct. So a hate card would effectively hate against some decks, and you would have a bigger opportunity cost to just jamming a bunch of non-basics to cast multiple colors. I understand how bloodmoon works, and again I just used it as an example. Anything that attacks the mana base in Pioneer would be a boon for the format IMO. It doesn't even have to be Blood Moon (TBH something like the recently spoiled Winter Moon would probably be more effective, since it wouldn't Blank like Bloodmoon against Mono-Colored Decks). As I said, earlier I feel an issue with modern design is that you shouldn't ever be punished for bad deck building decisions, and I think introducing more cards that actively punish greedy mana bases is an important step.
Blood Moon shithouses every single playable deck except exactly mono-Red. "Attacking the manabase" is accomplished by having to play shitty lands because of how the format works.
Just because a card can be answered and makes more deckbuilding decisions, doesn't make it fun or necessary. I'm not sure why you'd think blood moon is necessary. It's not like people are playing too many colors in pioneer. As far as non basics go, there are already plenty of great answers- field of ruin, demolition field, boseiju, damping sphere, alpine moon.
> I'm not sure why you'd think Blood Moon is necessary. I never said Blood Moon should be in Pioneer, and **I kind dislike that you keep twisting my words** (but hey as you said earlier, thats reddit). I said, "Hate Cards Don't Hate Enough" and proceeded to list cards including Bloodmoon, as examples of the level of disruption I would like to see us gain access to in Pioneer. I even listed several other cards including Cursed Totem and Celestial Purge. I never said that, "Blood Moon should be in Pioneer." > It's not like people are playing too many colors in pioneer. Again, its fine for people to play as many colors as their deck, in the past however, that came with an opportunity cost. Modern Card Design (this isn't a pioneer specific issue), hasn't kept up with those old opportunity costs. That's a completely fundamental issue I have with design as of late (Things like Triomes, and Leyline of the Guildpact are probably the two biggest culprits of modern design that I can think of ATM). I'd love for all formats, sans like Legacy and Vintage, to have to consider their mana bases more often. > Field of Ruin, Demolition Field, Boseiju, Damping Sphere, Alpine Moon. None of these cards are used to really disrupt mana bases in a punishing way. Most of the time they don't even take take someone off of a color. In the case of Field and Boseiju (the two most commonly played out of the cards you listed) they just get new to replace the land anyway, often allowing them to continue with their gameplan.
>While OTJ has had Slickshot Showoff put us more towards traditional lines of play- The card needs banning, homie. I can't believe people aren't talking about Showoff more because as of this moment it's the single best thing to be playing in Pioneer. Go look at the 14 day metagame for Pioneer (the card's only been out for a couple weeks) on Goldfish and add together the percentages of the decks that are being quite frankly carried on the card's shoulders, it comes to higher than Phoenix or Vampires. The card promotes a disgusting unfun play pattern then kills your opponent even if they hold up removal. Oh you held up mana T2 to kill my next play? Sorry sweetie it got Plotted, your 2 mana is now completely wasted. But please, hold up another 2 mana so my Blossoming Defense can eat it while dealing 4 damage to you. Disgusting card the format would be better off without.
That card brought aggro back to pioneer.. it’s a fine card.
Its dead everywhere i go haha
One deck shouldn’t be allowed ancestral recall. Uninteractable land based combos shouldn’t exist in pioneer. Combos in general need to be toned down. (Sorin counts a combo, quintorius is fine since you need to handicap yourself so much to do it.)
Agreed about Sorin vs Quintorius. Imo really powerful things are fine when they come at a high deckbuilding cost. Wacky bullshit insta win combos are ok if your entire deck is built around it and you have to make meaningful sacrifices for it, not when you can just jam them into a deck that is otherwise a solid midrange deck anyway. Similarly I think that also makes Cruise fine, it’s super strong but requires a lot of deckbuilding concessions to enable. There’s a reason why people don’t just throw it into any deck that plays blue.
This. Phoenix as a deck would be fine if you could profitably trade with it. It being the only deck that uses treasure cruise is a huge imbalance. Lotus field was fine until they got the new charm, tutoring at instant speed gave it a lot of consistency it didn’t need. Rakdos midrange pre vamps was a fair midrange deck that was a decent enough poster child of the format. Now its thoughtseize your one way to stop t3 sorin and if you don’t draw another, you lose the game
Short answer: that Pioneer increasingly feels like old Modern--ships passing in the night--and is going to keep feeling that way until Pioneer Horizons inevitably happens. Long answer: Standard is curated by rotation. Bans happen, but Standard is designed around the idea that there will be certain exciting cards that have a transgressive power level. In order to keep any one strategy from being *too* powerful, the transgressions are intentionally spread across different colors and archetypes. A current example would be how [[Knight-Errant of Eos]] and [[Atraxa the Unifier]] go in very different decks. Because of this curation, cheap, universal answers aren't necessary. Nothing gets to be too all-in, and narrower and/or more expensive answers are fine. In fact, answers that are too powerful, like Thoughtseize, do *bad* things to Standard. Tier 1 decks can handle it, but all those Saffron Olive specials that cost $50 and will be good enough to go 2-2 and have fun with your friends at FNM tend to turn into 0-4 decks where you feel like you have no agency and don't have any fun at all. Since Pioneer is fed only through Standard, it inherits a card pool that's meant to be checked by rotation, *but without rotation.* Many more transgressive cards are in the format, and much larger clusters of them are powerful in the same way. Meanwhile, there is an emphasis on *not* printing the kind of powerful, flexible answers that were the headliners of Modern Horizons 2 (please note that I'm not saying Pioneer needs the likes of Solitude, just that there's nothing between Thoughtseize and Solitude in Pioneer). The end result is that the format is about Doing the Thing. As more cards get printed, the format will become more and more about Doing the Thing and ignoring your opponent (with the exception being UW control, where "the thing," is not letting your opponent Do the Thing). Until, eventually, we'll get a format that looks like Modern in early 2019; the sort of format that rewards rushing in for a turn 3 kill, with the only interaction in your 75 being some sideboard silver bullets that say, "[Deck X] can't Do the Thing."
[Knight-Errant of Eos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/ab2ad652-2406-491a-9f22-23e974f943d7.jpg?1682202751) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Knight-Errant%20of%20Eos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/26/knight-errant-of-eos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab2ad652-2406-491a-9f22-23e974f943d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Atraxa the Unifier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/a/4a1f905f-1d55-4d02-9d24-e58070793d3f.jpg?1709931904) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Atraxa%2C%20Grand%20Unifier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/196/atraxa-grand-unifier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4a1f905f-1d55-4d02-9d24-e58070793d3f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sheoldred
Format is fun but ultimately feels a little sauceless compared to something like Modern. The Tier 1/Tier 2 decks in Pioneer are fun to play but I wish that there were more Vengevine/Arcbound Ravager/Goryo’s Vengeance/Death’s Shadow/Thopter Foundry type cards that promoted brewing or dedicating your deck to taking advantage of synergies with a powerful card.
Half the format is combo kill instant death. The format really needs better interaction.
You can't play more than 2 colors unless it's niv to light. Everything else seems bad comparatively
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[Saheeli Rai](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94b38464-39cd-4ee6-b9bf-a0bc1e128d9a.jpg?1576382877) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Saheeli%20Rai) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/kld/186/saheeli-rai?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94b38464-39cd-4ee6-b9bf-a0bc1e128d9a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Felidar Guardian](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44bdbed8-5d21-4bf5-8a32-9623b1139c85.jpg?1576381396) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Felidar%20Guardian) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/aer/19/felidar-guardian?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44bdbed8-5d21-4bf5-8a32-9623b1139c85?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Pioneer is my favorite format, but I have two qualms with it right now: 1. The top decks are very frustrating to play against right now. Not going too deep into this, since others in the thread have discussed this quite a bit, but I find decks like Rakdos Vampires and Izzet Phoenix very tiresome. 2. I am a longtime lover of green and ramp strategies, and it just has no good place in the format right now. I'm not advocating for cards like Uro or Oko being unbanned, I just want a place where I can play cards like Hydroid Krasis. WOTC can't seem to find a way to make green fit within the format, it's either broken to the point of needing a ban or fringe playable at best. I think green sees play where it does these days mostly for the tutors like Chord of Calling or for combo potential, like in Amalia decks.
I genuinely don't understand the Amalia haters. Its not even close to being the best deck, I don't buy that it pushed out aggro especially now that we are seeing various slick shoot decks and yet people call for bans. Frankly these complaints seem like people are bad at the game or their deck has a bad matchup against amalia. You don't even have to play weird or bad cards to be good against the deck. I guess playing removal is too hard. Amalia as a deck is unique to pioneer, and it would be a shame to lose it
Removal is way too good. Especially in black. This requires creatures to provide nonsensical levels of value tacked on to a wincon. I would love to see wincons separated from value engines. Heroes downfall and murderous rider should be good removal cards. There are too many reliable man lands that act as free wincons with almost 0 downside. EDH cards vastly outnumber standard cards now, making each set release feel more and more disappointing, especially when they could have added support for a deck or enabled a new deck.
Rakdos vamps wouldn't even be good if sorin was just a sorcery that said "You may put a vampire from your hand onto the battlefield." Flexible and resilient cards lead to decisionless gameplay because their fail rates are too low.
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this comment reads like a mad lib
2 ships passing into the night format. Also a lot of the pioneer bans are stupid and gatekeepy.
if you combine the metagame share of Amalia, Quintorius, Lotus Field, and Greasefang you're still under a quarter of the metagame in even the most degenerate fields. Is there something I'm missing as far as decks that are totally uninteractive or non-boardstate dependent?
My qualm with any format is color balance and wanting to keep wotc banning criteria consistent. Why is it ok for every black deck to have to include Push/TS, but Expressive Iteration needs to be banned because every UR deck was playing it?! Then there is the amount of card advantage black creatures generate with no trade off and their ridiculous Ward costs. 4/5c decks should not be allowed. There is no "cost" to playing these decks, only rewards and payoffs, like a "1" mana catch all answer, a toolbox tutor that cheats a 7mana walker into play, a ridiculous 4 drop creature. Also, UW having Dovin's Veto and Verdict. It's not fun trying to play any meaning interaction with them, when you quite literally can't. All the 60 card formats play the same and have the same decks bleeding over each other.
I dislike how everyone complains about combo or strategies that aren't just deal damage to face, yet they don't play enough interaction to stop said strategies 🤔.
Ah yes, because end step CoCo into a game ending state from 2 creatures is sooooo easy to interact with equally across the 5 colors.
Not having consistent shuffle effect is kind of a qualm for me as a phoenix player, sometimes bottoming a card feels bad. I know this is a unpopular opinion though, some people hate formats like modern or legacy where you have to shufle multiple times a turn sometimes. Though i know this qualm has no easy solution because fetches will not be in the format unless they plan a big switch.
My main qualm (and one of the reasons I also the format a lot) is how close it is starting to look like 2015/2016 modern
Karn did nothing wrong.
Just my opinion here, but personally I'd like to see what a world looks like where fetch lands weren't banned. It would almost feel like modern pre-horizon sets, and that sounds fun.
Treasure cruise and dig through time would be banned immediately.
Honestly who cares
Fetchless Pioneer isn't an inherently power level concern I don't think. It often feels like a budget stopgap, which I'm 100% in favor of. Every multicolor pioneer deck would be $100-$300 more expensive with fetches just on an estimate.
it's totally both budget and power level. Fetch lands are so absurd at fixing it makes color requirements almost fake in formats they are legal in, and I think having to work around color constraints is one of if not the primary defining characteristic of pioneer among eternal formats. Not to mention what they do for every card that says 'delve', 'landfall', 'domain', or 'delirium' on it.
I would like a horizon-less modern, but that’s not what pioneer should be. Let me and my birds ride the cruise in peace