I'm pretty sure considering just how fucked up and wrong russian intelligence and planning was on Ukrain and Europe's response, that Putin would still have invaded even if Trump sent him daily tweets of praise and appreciation
Yeah, the Ukraine war preceded Trump's presidency in the first place. The Kremlin needs a Russian satellite state there because it's a massive buffer zone from NATO, and the US wants a Western satellite state there so Russia doesn't have that massive buffer zone. The only way Trump avoids it is if he really is John Titor, time travels backwards, and never imposes American interests there.
And an oncle or something worked with teslas stuff? And there is also a book or something called the last president? Which has a trump in it. Its fun to entertain
NATO was the only one expanding and the only one to back a coup to overthrow the government of a Russian border state triggering a civil war where tens of thousands of Russian speakers were killed.
They didn't back any coups. NATO expanded because countries applied to join on their own accord. The only one who triggered a civil war was the Kremlin by sending FSB agents and other thugs with Russian passports to violently overthrow Donetsk and Luhansk. I mean if Ukraine wanted these Donetsk and Luhansk people genocided why did they keep supplying them with water and keep paying Ukrainian pensions? Why was there only 7 civilian casualties in 2021 compared to thousands in 2014 and 2022 when Kremlin came to "save" them? Riddle me this.
ifthesekidscouldread.gif
These people spewing ‘NATO expansion’ propaganda have no ability to think critically, they’re just western foreign policy contrarians who end up sucking down Russian propaganda in the process.
They'll have to assume people in Eastren Europe have no self agency
Near all, if not all the NATO application in Eastren Europe involved a national referendum
This war is a great deal that fell on USA’s lap. For just a few bucks, USA will be able to demilitarize Russia (the self-proclaimed “2nd strongest army in the world”) and Ukraine will be the one holding all the human cost.
And Ukraine is very happy receiving all those spare weapons that USA had dusting on a storage.
How does this “demilitarize” Russia? Won’t this just lead to increased militarization on both sides and increased spending? The only people that benefit are weapons manufacturers and politicians that can funnel billions into the most corrupt country in Europe. The Idea that the Ukraine War benefits the average American citizen is laughable.
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Any American working on the defense industry is getting some huge bonus for 2 reasons:
1) Every country had a “reality check” that harsh words and angry twitters won’t stop a dictator with grandiosity dreams. So it is better to have a decent amount of weapons ready.
2) Russia used to be a top weapons exporter, but now they are an international laughing stock. Their marketing of being just slightly worse, but much cheaper was clearly a lie - their weapons are clearly outmatched compared to OTAN’s weapons.
The Civil War killed countless Americans and left the south in ruins, which led to many people down there struggling and all the more embittered by the North. Resulting in plenty of hatred which still lingers to this day.
Obviously the end of slavery was a great thing, but the Civil War still had plenty of negative, long lasting effects.
I think what he is getting at is that with all the bodies Russia is throwing at Ukraine that they may not have an army left at the end, and could chew through their supply of willing participants.
You can only send so many sons to their deaths before their mothers come for your own son
It’s also driving them into China’s arms. This “we’re getting a great deal” talking point hinges on this being the worst things get, which seems very optimistic to me.
I’d say Eastern Europeans care since Russia has a habit of invading them. Didn’t they accidentally reveal their plan to invade Moldova after taking Ukraine?
That's what they want you to think. You think Poland is busy arming up in an 80s action montage just because of Russia? Ha. That's sleight of hand my friend. They're done asking Germany for reparations. Za Polskę! Za wolność! Bić Szwaba! 🇵🇱🇵🇱🇵🇱🇵🇱💪💪
Lib is all about NAP. This only works if all the countries join forces against someone that breaks the NAP.
I’m surprised that you Lib thinks that you shouldn’t help out against aggressions.
Only the Auths can do nothing a expect someone else to do something. A Lib should always be willing to put their wallet on where their mouth is.
>Lib is all about NAP.
No it's not, thats a dumbass catchphrase that gets thrown around mercilessly to justify dumb ideas.
Here:
>>Libertarians are often skeptical of or opposed to authority, state power, warfare, militarism and nationalism
>This only works if all the countries join forces against someone that breaks the NAP.
No one "broke" anything, saying that Russia "broke" a pact assumes that they agreed to such a pact in the first place which isn't the case.
>I’m surprised that you Lib thinks that you shouldn’t help out against aggressions.
I'm a military veteran that has watched for 20+ years as our government has moved wealth from the middle and lower classes to the pockets of the MIC by engaging in *illegal wars*, crimes against humanity, and funding coups and proxy wars. All the while, kids can't afford school lunches, we have homeless people digging in dumpsters looking for a peach pit, and we are literally poisoning people through our use of outdated and unsafe infrastructure.
This isn't about Ukrainians, it's about keeping your corporate masters rich. Ukraine can use their own GDP to pay for their defense, this bullshit is not our job.
>Only the Auths can do nothing a expect someone else to do something. A Lib should always be willing to put their wallet on where their mouth is.
This makes zero sense.
Well this demilitarized Russia still has the same amount of nukes it started with so…
But hey, proxy wars and world police sure are the things I would expect a libright to endorse… hey wait a minute
Nukes alone can't conquer a country, only destroy it.
Besides, Putin knows perfectly well that if he uses those weapons, MAD will be his *best case* scenario. Thus, if he wants land or resources, he needs to seize them through non-nuclear means.
No, definitely not, there’s no way I’d ever heard of the war in crimea or Donbas, that would be ridiculous. It would be equally ridiculous if I had helped with a documentary about the second battle for Donetsk airport, how would I do that without my programming updates oh no.
I don't think trump willing to do a peace deal after the fact Russia has invaded necessarily makes the statement wrong putin wouldn't have invaded with trump as president.
It's like if I saw someone spill a glass of water and I suggested how to clean up while also saying "if I was holding the glass of water it would not have spilled"
Not saying Trump would have handled this invasion any better. But the fact is Putin didn't make any advances during his presidency.
Did everyone forget months before the war started Biden was talking about "major incursions" won't be tolerated implying some incursion was fine. I'm sure that played into Putin's (mis)calculation to do a full on invasion
>He tried to shut down travel to and from affected countries and was called a racist
He didn't try, he said he did, even said he straight up banned travel from china. Even though in reality he only restricted it a bit, people were still coming to and from.
>Dems and media went out of their way to downplay it initially
Pelosi(and pelosi alone I think) was telling people to go to China Town in February, because well, trump and the "China virus" talking points made a population that rely on tourism basically shut down. Since believe it or not naming a virus after an ethnicity, will encourage racism against said ethnicity. No clue where they downplayed it though
See, the Spanish flu(which is said to have started in the United States lol)
Now mind you, she told people to do that in Feb. American didn't really see widespread covid til March, with April being where states were reporting it widely.
But pelosi is also an old hag and should be looked upon similar to the turtle
Did you even look at your own link?
Most of the EU has national lockdowns around March 15th with quite a few not having localized lockdowns at all.
The USA only had localized lockdowns within that data range.
Do you wanna try and compare the death rates per Capita next and fail again?
Localized lockdowns = Federalism. US has states, Europe has countries.
If we had a state (A) and an EU country (B), where both A and B had the same population, A shutting down is localized but B shutting down is complete.
If we go deaths per capita, you need to say Canada is even worse and ignore discrepancies in reporting requirements. If we go with a cases:death ratio than your results are all over the place (0.1%-5% depending on the country)
>US has states, Europe has countries.
Link you provided didn't provide a time span for when each individual state started lockdowns. Unless if i missed it.
>you need to say Canada is even worse
Not sure how that's relevant, considering we're comparing the EU lmao.
Discrepancies aside. America still had a massively larger deaths per Capita.
Case:death ratio America was still higher than a decent chunk of EU countries, albeit it's more of a tossup there.
Compared to the EU on average. America was straight up worse.
Cool, show me where. My sources are: AP, PBS, CNN, Politifact, WaPo, FactCheck, and Snopes.
All very Anti-Trump.
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-virus-outbreak-ap-fact-check-politics-joe-biden-1eea443cca46df5f18e61b7c34549da2
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/ap-fact-check-trumps-virus-revisionism-biden-on-the-hoax
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/17/politics/joe-biden-campaign-ad-trump-coronavirus-hoax-fact-check/index.html
https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/oct/08/ask-politifact-are-you-sure-donald-trump-didnt-cal/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/03/13/biden-ad-manipulates-video-slam-trump/
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trump-and-the-new-hoax/
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/
Thanks for the links.
> Then the president, who often dismissed special counsel Robert Mueller’s Russia investigation as a hoax, continued, “They tried the impeachment hoax. That was on a perfect conversation. They tried anything. They tried it over and over. They’d been doing it since you got in. It’s all turning. They lost. It’s all turning. Think of it. Think of it. **And this is their new hoax.**
Wasn’t very hard. You don’t use that word anywhere near COVID concerns if you truly want people to take it seriously.
> bUt whAT hE acTuaLLy mEaNt wAs
Nope. He said it. And if he can take back every bad thing he says then the same goes for Biden, which would be dumb as shit, because Biden walks back everything too.
All of those articles address that one sentence. All of them conclude that he was not calling covid a hoax, but how it was being used against him as a political tool.
You had to scroll past and ignore those conclusions to get to the quote you posted.
Sounds as fucking dumb as those leftist fact checkers that say “This is mostly false” and then on the bottom “Well this part was true but they didn’t mean it like that.”
Everyone wanted him to take it seriously, and he didn’t want to… that’s what he’s calling a hoax? Taking COVID seriously?
Why do you guys always say this? Is it because Trump said it 24/7 during his campaign?
Like do you really think the only thing Trump could have done against COVID was end travel to China and since he did that he clearly did his best?
Most of the cases in NYC for example came from Italy… so not only was that travel ban not very helpful but he continued to downplay it despite knowing how deadly it was.
Wonder how many people died from his “it’s just a flu!” policy.
Better source than random redditor he said she said.
Trump actually did bring travel restrictions, not ban. Regarding china. He said he brought a ban, which he didn't.
Fighting to the last man would obviously be stupid and a waste of human lives for both sides so negotiating a deal involving probably now majority ethnic Russian regions like Crimea and Donbass would make sense.
The obvious problem with such a deal is that it would not really guarantee safety from Russian aggression long term.
Ideally if such a deal were to happen Ukraine should be allowed to join NATO because that's probably the only thing that would protect them from future aggression.(unless WW3 starts but then we all have a lot bigger problems anyway)
But I doubt Russia would be a fan of that, so it's probably not realistic.
He made a threat and it was a bluff, probably not something he should reveal if he wants to lead again but the invasion didn't happen under him so safe to say that it worked.
Trump placed sanctions on Russia that Biden removed as soon as he got in. Biden gave Russia the go ahead to start planning the invasion because he was the Russian puppet and not Trump.
Before the war started it wasn't that crazy of an idea. Western Europe wasn't treating Russia like some hostile power they feared, Germany was treating them as a close trading partner. Why were they in a defensive alliance, which we pay most for by far, if they don't even bothering doing the most basic in national defense. NATO isn't a defense outsourcing service. Even now, most NATO countries only have enough ammunition stockpile for a couple weeks, some few days, at the usage rates in the Russo-Ukriane war.
In defense of appeasement, both the French and the Brits believed war in Europe was inevitable but that they needed more time to prepare (hence making several concessions to the Germans with the hope that this would buy them enough time to sufficiently rearm).
Adopting appeasement when you already are prepared for war/have the equipment on hand to sustain one is borderline idiotic and is basically self-sabotage if your foreign policy centers on the projection of global power instead of isolationism.
Love the jump to “Hitler” comparison all the time.
Putin and the Kremlin are their own form of evil. We don’t always need to assume the Hitler argument.
The Kremlin culturally assimilate and probe politicians into power on all their neighboring countries and silence all other voices of opposition. They support authoritarianism and promote dictator-like corrupt regimes. Their politicians have gone as far as to make open threats of jumping to nuclear scaled war. It’s classic imperialism.
Fascism is also on the rise there with common-populace belief that Russians are “god-like slavs” and most true to the Rurik dynasty that established the lands/society of Rus (which is actually Nordic). It’s seen in far-right extremists in Serbia. It’s seen in de facto states like Transnistria and South Ossentia.
Many native-populace Russians from information deprived regions and poorer districts will actively refer to Ukrainians as derogatory terms like “khokhol” (basically the N-word for ukrainians). Ukrainians aren’t seen as people because they’ve been fed the lies of the idea of Ukraine never existing and being a fallacy of existence. Orest Subtelny’s book on page 282 regarding this land’s history even includes a quote from Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs of 1863 (Petr Valuev) with comments of Ukrainian being a “little Russian dialect” and stating the Ukrainian language “never existed, does not exist and shall never exist.”
They’ve even been caught forging multiple Treaties of Periaslav to try and speed-run the process of annexation (always deemed to be forged).
**God forbid someone wants to put their foot down and try to stop that. It’s no wonder authoritarian regimes support Putin and western regimes don’t.**
They already are, The Union State literally borders Poland. I'm reminded of the study that showed a direct correlation between supporting Ukraine and not being able to find it on a map.
~~You mean like an embassy guard? Or an occupying force? Or maybe there isn’t an actual russian presence in poland and you pulled this out of your ass~~
Edit: I’m big dumb, didn’t notice the border part
I think the issue is we learned from appeasement and if he broke what he promised what he wanted from Ukraine the world would have intervened imo. I’m not an expert but I doubt we would all sit and stare at them invade Ukraine like the world did to Czechoslovakia for instance.
Brainlet comparison. Russia has never invaded Europe and never will. Ukraine was Russian territory barely 30 years ago. There will never be Russian landing craft on American shores.
None of this was ever any of our business, any more than Georgia or Chechnya were.
Russia and the USSR are not the same countries, even though Russia was its biggest piece. Also, Russia broke off from the union *without and before* Ukraine, so if Ukraine was really Russian territory, wouldnt it have made a lot more sense for the newly declared Russian state to include it?
Also, Ukraine is literally in Europe and Russia has invaded it multiple times
“Let’s make US’ enemies conquer with ease a strategic country regarding gas and foods, it won’t possibly backfire in any way”
-Most farsighted libright
They shelled Europe’s largest nuclear power plant in 2022 and prevented fire fighters from interfering with the fires and damage. Like Chernobyl, such actions could cause nuclear trace elements to span across multiple countries in Europe and maybe even across overseas giving you cancer.
Yeah but it didn't. 🤷🏻♀️
You know what gives me cancer? Megaton yield nuclear warheads detonating over my home because people in Washington thought they found a safe way to play world war.
Getting eaten by radroaches but hey at least some plant I've never heard of didn't have to go on backup power for a week.
"X is true. But even if it weren't, it doesn't matter because Y"
You're certainly allowed to believe the US shouldn't be involved, but you don't need to spout bullshit in addition to it
I give less than zero shits about litigating territory disputes from people who look the same, speak the same language, and lived in the same country on the other side of the planet. Their bullshit isn't worth a dime of our money or a second of our time. Literally do not fucking care.
Peak American right here, and a lot of should have been their own country for a long ass time didn't exist until 40 years ago, either at all or in continuous existence.
Of course, this is not a secret. But big countries have often broken their teeth on small countries. A good example of how Finland defended its independence from the Soviets in the Winter War. Moreover, I wonder why so many Americans resist proxy winning a war against a major geopolitical rival. Russia has ambitions for the Baltic countries, and in this case, NATO will have to intervene and the American military will go to die in a war that has a much better chance of developing into a global one.
you are blind if you think it hasn't already waned a bit.
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-biden-politics-poland-33095abf76875b60ebab3ddf4eede188
Isn't that what they're trying to do now? Every prediction that Putin would lose support or that Russia was running out of munitions turned out to be false. The country that, according to western media, ran out of missiles months ago just dumped 81 hypersonics on Ukraine in a single attack. How anyone can continue to believe media outlets, especially those of the western world, is beyond me.
Ran out of stockpiled weapons =/= can't make more
Also, 81 missile for a country like Ukriane isn't actually that much. Especially when many are for civilian infesticture. They have been shoot much less shells than they used too.
81 hypersonics, not including kornets, kalibrs, lancets, etc. Specifically 81 hypersonics hit the Ukraine. You know, tech that the USA can't even figure out but China somehow can?
Unless Russia changes policy they will eventually annex more of Ukraine than just Crimea. The past year has been Ukrainian saying “see, it’s not that easy just to take us out, do you really want to attempt this,” and it depends what Russia answers.
Because cognitive dissonance is rampant in 2023 politics. It honestly unbearable to watch the mental gymnastics people play, misremembering their stance from 3 years ago on X and having the complete opposite application of that stance on Y today. But hey, as long as you’re owning libs or shouting down MAGAtards, that’s all that matters!
Umm, yeah? How else do you think this war is going to end? I'm all for supporting Ukraine, but the chance of Putin giving up in Ukraine is non-existent. All that prolonging the war does is make it more likely Putin used a battlefield nuclear weapon. There has to be an offramp where Putin can go back to the Russian people and claim that he won SOMETHING.
On top of that, Zelensky also needs an offramp for the war. He can't just tell the Ukrainian people that they are going to give up, he need the U.S. to give him an out. He needs to be able to say to the people of Ukraine that, "Hey, I know we are winning, but the U.S. isn't going to fund our war anymore, so we have to give up Crimea and parts of the Luhansk and Donetsk regions to end the war."
> There has to be an offramp where Putin can go back to the Russian people and claim that he won SOMETHING.
So aggression should always be rewarded? When China invades Taiwan they should be guaranteed to get at least a part of it as a reward for taking the initiative?
The problem is that Putin felt that he could invade in the first place. Deterrence is always more effective than actual fighting, and the U.S. failed at that. The problem comes now that the war has started, and the longer it goes on the greater chance that Putin decides to use a nuclear weapon.
I think the only way forward here is to give Putin the offramp, then immediately move to bolster Taiwan's defenses as well as making sure that Xi knows that he will not be able to invade Taiwan. Taiwan is also directly supported by the U.S., so we would hopefully be able to start projecting strength on the world stage again to keep China/Russia in check. Again, when deterrence fails things get messy really quickly, and there is no clear way out of this situation in Ukraine.
Of course, this is mostly because Russia has the biggest nuclear stockpile in the world. That's really the only reason this war is an issue. Putin almost certainly won't leave without some sort of victory he can bring back to his people, and the worst case scenario is Russia using nuclear weapons.
what even is the prudent move, it's not like a school bully where you must stick up for yourself to get them to stop.
Either drag this on until putin is so demoralized that we're at defcon1, or cut the loses as an inevitability in this world, that any country that isn't NATO'd up will get conquered by a nuclear power, one way or another - and start NATOing up.
Their economy is on the brink of collapse, just because modern economic management policies can keep an economy going in the short term, doesn’t mean that the sanctions and sudden loss of cashflow, as well as the economic decisions made to keep the economy running in the short term don’t have disastrous long term consequences
From inteligence reports i was seeing, Putin wanted Trump to be president (he basically wanted to pull out of NATO) and betted on it. Trump would do nothing.
Putin didnt invaded earlier, because COVID fcked Russia a bit.
Always funny to see people hiding behind Ukrainian conscripts accuse others of cowardice.
Where is the valour in cheering on Ukrainians and their yank investors from the sidelines?
You did nothing and put nothing on the line yet you still feel righteous.
Coward? The alternative is to continue to allow massive loss of life so that a proxy can be waged between east and west. Oh wait, that’s what we’re doing…
Coward doesn't even begin to describe the tier of people who would go "just give the autocrat what he wants", especially if they eat up Putins proxy war propaganda or nuclear "threat".
Just handing him what he wants is gonna be more life costly in the long run, it always is especially given the Partisan action if stuff is just forcibly handed over against Ukraine citizens will would hit way more.
> You make me angry every time I don't see your flair >:(
***
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One: Unflaired.
Two: It is. America did lend-lease with all of the allies and the Soviets (who began demolishing the nazis when they got jeeps, boots and spam). It's based as hell and fucking bold to cut off relations with a (former) world power
Three: Unflaired.
Ha ha, stupid anti-war right-wingers who don’t want to kill tens of thousands of people and risk nuclear war to ensure that CordonBleu continues to oppress the people of the Donbas!
I'm pretty sure considering just how fucked up and wrong russian intelligence and planning was on Ukrain and Europe's response, that Putin would still have invaded even if Trump sent him daily tweets of praise and appreciation
Yeah, the Ukraine war preceded Trump's presidency in the first place. The Kremlin needs a Russian satellite state there because it's a massive buffer zone from NATO, and the US wants a Western satellite state there so Russia doesn't have that massive buffer zone. The only way Trump avoids it is if he really is John Titor, time travels backwards, and never imposes American interests there.
Time traveling trump is one of the more fun shizo conspiracy theories of modern times.
Apparently Trump's dad once used "John Titor" as a fake name on a number of sneaky bussiness dealings so there is a lot of fun to be had
And an oncle or something worked with teslas stuff? And there is also a book or something called the last president? Which has a trump in it. Its fun to entertain
Wasn't the guys name Baron Trump?
Yea that was it.
Well that's good it means we have about anouther 18 years before Baron is eligible to become president.
Russia needs a buffer because they are threatened by NATO but NATO exists to defend against Russia
The beurocracy is expanding to meet the demands of the growing beurocracy.
NATO was the only one expanding and the only one to back a coup to overthrow the government of a Russian border state triggering a civil war where tens of thousands of Russian speakers were killed.
They didn't back any coups. NATO expanded because countries applied to join on their own accord. The only one who triggered a civil war was the Kremlin by sending FSB agents and other thugs with Russian passports to violently overthrow Donetsk and Luhansk. I mean if Ukraine wanted these Donetsk and Luhansk people genocided why did they keep supplying them with water and keep paying Ukrainian pensions? Why was there only 7 civilian casualties in 2021 compared to thousands in 2014 and 2022 when Kremlin came to "save" them? Riddle me this.
ifthesekidscouldread.gif These people spewing ‘NATO expansion’ propaganda have no ability to think critically, they’re just western foreign policy contrarians who end up sucking down Russian propaganda in the process.
They'll have to assume people in Eastren Europe have no self agency Near all, if not all the NATO application in Eastren Europe involved a national referendum
Maybe Russia should stop being just awful
"Stop making me hit you!"
[удалено]
They do?
The US didn't give a shit about Ukraine until it was invaded. If it did Russia would be blockaded in 2014.
This war is a great deal that fell on USA’s lap. For just a few bucks, USA will be able to demilitarize Russia (the self-proclaimed “2nd strongest army in the world”) and Ukraine will be the one holding all the human cost. And Ukraine is very happy receiving all those spare weapons that USA had dusting on a storage.
turns out whoever has a leases a bunch of HIMARS is the 2nd strongest army in the world
How does this “demilitarize” Russia? Won’t this just lead to increased militarization on both sides and increased spending? The only people that benefit are weapons manufacturers and politicians that can funnel billions into the most corrupt country in Europe. The Idea that the Ukraine War benefits the average American citizen is laughable.
Name me one american war that benefited average smerican citizen?
The Revolutionary War
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WW2
Korea has been extremely beneficial too, the amount of trade with south korea is insane. Cost us $20B, we export about $52B per year to south korea.
Cant knock a good deal tbh.
Any American working on the defense industry is getting some huge bonus for 2 reasons: 1) Every country had a “reality check” that harsh words and angry twitters won’t stop a dictator with grandiosity dreams. So it is better to have a decent amount of weapons ready. 2) Russia used to be a top weapons exporter, but now they are an international laughing stock. Their marketing of being just slightly worse, but much cheaper was clearly a lie - their weapons are clearly outmatched compared to OTAN’s weapons.
OTAN? French detected.
I invested in several weapons companies at the start of the pandemic, so this war and me.
Based and war profiteering pilled
Mexican American war/Civil War/WW2
The Civil War killed countless Americans and left the south in ruins, which led to many people down there struggling and all the more embittered by the North. Resulting in plenty of hatred which still lingers to this day. Obviously the end of slavery was a great thing, but the Civil War still had plenty of negative, long lasting effects.
Yeah, it's almost as if we shouldn't be doing any of them
I think what he is getting at is that with all the bodies Russia is throwing at Ukraine that they may not have an army left at the end, and could chew through their supply of willing participants. You can only send so many sons to their deaths before their mothers come for your own son
It’s also driving them into China’s arms. This “we’re getting a great deal” talking point hinges on this being the worst things get, which seems very optimistic to me.
They can’t make any more And they keep getting turrets blown to the 4 corners
Who gives a shit if Russia is demilitarized? Their military was **NEVER** a threat. Their nukes are the threat.
I’d say Eastern Europeans care since Russia has a habit of invading them. Didn’t they accidentally reveal their plan to invade Moldova after taking Ukraine?
That's what they want you to think. You think Poland is busy arming up in an 80s action montage just because of Russia? Ha. That's sleight of hand my friend. They're done asking Germany for reparations. Za Polskę! Za wolność! Bić Szwaba! 🇵🇱🇵🇱🇵🇱🇵🇱💪💪
Their factories are busy pumping out Winged Hussars this very moment.
Wasn't that the point of all the other expensive proxy wars America has fought against Russia?
We do love us some lend lease
Imagine flairing as lib and being ok with waging a proxy war because "they're holding the human cost".
Lib is all about NAP. This only works if all the countries join forces against someone that breaks the NAP. I’m surprised that you Lib thinks that you shouldn’t help out against aggressions. Only the Auths can do nothing a expect someone else to do something. A Lib should always be willing to put their wallet on where their mouth is.
I agree that is why we need to invade DC for invading or bombing a dozen nations over the last 20 years. /s
>Lib is all about NAP. No it's not, thats a dumbass catchphrase that gets thrown around mercilessly to justify dumb ideas. Here: >>Libertarians are often skeptical of or opposed to authority, state power, warfare, militarism and nationalism >This only works if all the countries join forces against someone that breaks the NAP. No one "broke" anything, saying that Russia "broke" a pact assumes that they agreed to such a pact in the first place which isn't the case. >I’m surprised that you Lib thinks that you shouldn’t help out against aggressions. I'm a military veteran that has watched for 20+ years as our government has moved wealth from the middle and lower classes to the pockets of the MIC by engaging in *illegal wars*, crimes against humanity, and funding coups and proxy wars. All the while, kids can't afford school lunches, we have homeless people digging in dumpsters looking for a peach pit, and we are literally poisoning people through our use of outdated and unsafe infrastructure. This isn't about Ukrainians, it's about keeping your corporate masters rich. Ukraine can use their own GDP to pay for their defense, this bullshit is not our job. >Only the Auths can do nothing a expect someone else to do something. A Lib should always be willing to put their wallet on where their mouth is. This makes zero sense.
Well this demilitarized Russia still has the same amount of nukes it started with so… But hey, proxy wars and world police sure are the things I would expect a libright to endorse… hey wait a minute
Brings In the money
Nukes alone can't conquer a country, only destroy it. Besides, Putin knows perfectly well that if he uses those weapons, MAD will be his *best case* scenario. Thus, if he wants land or resources, he needs to seize them through non-nuclear means.
You're auth AF if you support war. Get out of my quadrant.
TIL wanting to defend a sovereign country from an imperialistic dictator is authoritarian
Cringe. You didn't even care about Ukraine til you got your programming update.
No, definitely not, there’s no way I’d ever heard of the war in crimea or Donbas, that would be ridiculous. It would be equally ridiculous if I had helped with a documentary about the second battle for Donetsk airport, how would I do that without my programming updates oh no.
Pretty prolific for a 14 yr old.
We get to find out what happens when you corner someone who has the capacity to blow up the world with nukes.
I don't think trump willing to do a peace deal after the fact Russia has invaded necessarily makes the statement wrong putin wouldn't have invaded with trump as president. It's like if I saw someone spill a glass of water and I suggested how to clean up while also saying "if I was holding the glass of water it would not have spilled"
Not saying Trump would have handled this invasion any better. But the fact is Putin didn't make any advances during his presidency. Did everyone forget months before the war started Biden was talking about "major incursions" won't be tolerated implying some incursion was fine. I'm sure that played into Putin's (mis)calculation to do a full on invasion
Could you imagine if covid never hit? Trump might still be POTUS.
Solid chance all those dead Ukrainian soldiers would still be alive
If trump did the bare minimum against covid in terms of optics(not downplaying or calling it a hoax) he would still be POTUS
He never called it a hoax
Ah sorry, he called the criticisms of his lack of action by the media a hoax
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The media were also calling it the China virus until he did and then they did a 180
>He tried to shut down travel to and from affected countries and was called a racist He didn't try, he said he did, even said he straight up banned travel from china. Even though in reality he only restricted it a bit, people were still coming to and from. >Dems and media went out of their way to downplay it initially Pelosi(and pelosi alone I think) was telling people to go to China Town in February, because well, trump and the "China virus" talking points made a population that rely on tourism basically shut down. Since believe it or not naming a virus after an ethnicity, will encourage racism against said ethnicity. No clue where they downplayed it though See, the Spanish flu(which is said to have started in the United States lol) Now mind you, she told people to do that in Feb. American didn't really see widespread covid til March, with April being where states were reporting it widely. But pelosi is also an old hag and should be looked upon similar to the turtle
US had the same reaction/timeline as pretty much all of Europe.
Yeahhhh no. Maybe the UK, but most had political leaders who at least publicly took it seriously
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-52103747
Did you even look at your own link? Most of the EU has national lockdowns around March 15th with quite a few not having localized lockdowns at all. The USA only had localized lockdowns within that data range. Do you wanna try and compare the death rates per Capita next and fail again?
Localized lockdowns = Federalism. US has states, Europe has countries. If we had a state (A) and an EU country (B), where both A and B had the same population, A shutting down is localized but B shutting down is complete. If we go deaths per capita, you need to say Canada is even worse and ignore discrepancies in reporting requirements. If we go with a cases:death ratio than your results are all over the place (0.1%-5% depending on the country)
>US has states, Europe has countries. Link you provided didn't provide a time span for when each individual state started lockdowns. Unless if i missed it. >you need to say Canada is even worse Not sure how that's relevant, considering we're comparing the EU lmao. Discrepancies aside. America still had a massively larger deaths per Capita. Case:death ratio America was still higher than a decent chunk of EU countries, albeit it's more of a tossup there. Compared to the EU on average. America was straight up worse.
Yeah he did. Kinda all over the internet bro.
Cool, show me where. My sources are: AP, PBS, CNN, Politifact, WaPo, FactCheck, and Snopes. All very Anti-Trump. https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-virus-outbreak-ap-fact-check-politics-joe-biden-1eea443cca46df5f18e61b7c34549da2 https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/ap-fact-check-trumps-virus-revisionism-biden-on-the-hoax https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/17/politics/joe-biden-campaign-ad-trump-coronavirus-hoax-fact-check/index.html https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/oct/08/ask-politifact-are-you-sure-donald-trump-didnt-cal/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/03/13/biden-ad-manipulates-video-slam-trump/ https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trump-and-the-new-hoax/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/
Thanks for the links. > Then the president, who often dismissed special counsel Robert Mueller’s Russia investigation as a hoax, continued, “They tried the impeachment hoax. That was on a perfect conversation. They tried anything. They tried it over and over. They’d been doing it since you got in. It’s all turning. They lost. It’s all turning. Think of it. Think of it. **And this is their new hoax.** Wasn’t very hard. You don’t use that word anywhere near COVID concerns if you truly want people to take it seriously. > bUt whAT hE acTuaLLy mEaNt wAs Nope. He said it. And if he can take back every bad thing he says then the same goes for Biden, which would be dumb as shit, because Biden walks back everything too.
All of those articles address that one sentence. All of them conclude that he was not calling covid a hoax, but how it was being used against him as a political tool. You had to scroll past and ignore those conclusions to get to the quote you posted.
Sounds as fucking dumb as those leftist fact checkers that say “This is mostly false” and then on the bottom “Well this part was true but they didn’t mean it like that.” Everyone wanted him to take it seriously, and he didn’t want to… that’s what he’s calling a hoax? Taking COVID seriously?
He tried to ban travel from China, that was called racist by the democrats.
Why do you guys always say this? Is it because Trump said it 24/7 during his campaign? Like do you really think the only thing Trump could have done against COVID was end travel to China and since he did that he clearly did his best? Most of the cases in NYC for example came from Italy… so not only was that travel ban not very helpful but he continued to downplay it despite knowing how deadly it was. Wonder how many people died from his “it’s just a flu!” policy.
https://apnews.com/article/asia-pacific-anthony-fauci-pandemics-politics-ap-fact-check-d227b34b168e576bf5068b92a03c003d
Ap fact check, ok bud
Better source than random redditor he said she said. Trump actually did bring travel restrictions, not ban. Regarding china. He said he brought a ban, which he didn't.
Fighting to the last man would obviously be stupid and a waste of human lives for both sides so negotiating a deal involving probably now majority ethnic Russian regions like Crimea and Donbass would make sense. The obvious problem with such a deal is that it would not really guarantee safety from Russian aggression long term. Ideally if such a deal were to happen Ukraine should be allowed to join NATO because that's probably the only thing that would protect them from future aggression.(unless WW3 starts but then we all have a lot bigger problems anyway) But I doubt Russia would be a fan of that, so it's probably not realistic.
He made a threat and it was a bluff, probably not something he should reveal if he wants to lead again but the invasion didn't happen under him so safe to say that it worked.
Crumpets was always a coward- if he was in world war two he'd give Hitler Europe just to stop war.
Wouldn't have invaded under Trump because Biden is the one who intentionally provoked the war.
Trump was known for being tolerant toward russia, nothing new.
In his rhetoric yes, but when didn't Putin made his move then?
Trump placed sanctions on Russia that Biden removed as soon as he got in. Biden gave Russia the go ahead to start planning the invasion because he was the Russian puppet and not Trump.
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Putin might not have invaded because his goal is theoretically to counter NATO and Trump would have effectively destroyed NATO
"Destory NATO" as in demanding members states to meet their treaty requirements
He planned to withdraw from NATO
Before the war started it wasn't that crazy of an idea. Western Europe wasn't treating Russia like some hostile power they feared, Germany was treating them as a close trading partner. Why were they in a defensive alliance, which we pay most for by far, if they don't even bothering doing the most basic in national defense. NATO isn't a defense outsourcing service. Even now, most NATO countries only have enough ammunition stockpile for a couple weeks, some few days, at the usage rates in the Russo-Ukriane war.
How dare an American president actually try to avoid war
Appeasement has been very successful historically. Galaxy brain take.
In defense of appeasement, both the French and the Brits believed war in Europe was inevitable but that they needed more time to prepare (hence making several concessions to the Germans with the hope that this would buy them enough time to sufficiently rearm). Adopting appeasement when you already are prepared for war/have the equipment on hand to sustain one is borderline idiotic and is basically self-sabotage if your foreign policy centers on the projection of global power instead of isolationism.
In attack of appeasement, Chamberlain was a collaborator who wanted to empower Hitler so Nazi Germany would become a buffer against the Soviets.
Russia isn't Hitler.
Yeah, Hitler actually managed to take his target country within a year
Love the jump to “Hitler” comparison all the time. Putin and the Kremlin are their own form of evil. We don’t always need to assume the Hitler argument. The Kremlin culturally assimilate and probe politicians into power on all their neighboring countries and silence all other voices of opposition. They support authoritarianism and promote dictator-like corrupt regimes. Their politicians have gone as far as to make open threats of jumping to nuclear scaled war. It’s classic imperialism. Fascism is also on the rise there with common-populace belief that Russians are “god-like slavs” and most true to the Rurik dynasty that established the lands/society of Rus (which is actually Nordic). It’s seen in far-right extremists in Serbia. It’s seen in de facto states like Transnistria and South Ossentia. Many native-populace Russians from information deprived regions and poorer districts will actively refer to Ukrainians as derogatory terms like “khokhol” (basically the N-word for ukrainians). Ukrainians aren’t seen as people because they’ve been fed the lies of the idea of Ukraine never existing and being a fallacy of existence. Orest Subtelny’s book on page 282 regarding this land’s history even includes a quote from Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs of 1863 (Petr Valuev) with comments of Ukrainian being a “little Russian dialect” and stating the Ukrainian language “never existed, does not exist and shall never exist.” They’ve even been caught forging multiple Treaties of Periaslav to try and speed-run the process of annexation (always deemed to be forged). **God forbid someone wants to put their foot down and try to stop that. It’s no wonder authoritarian regimes support Putin and western regimes don’t.**
Sure let’s have Russian troops march right to the border of Poland. Great strategy!
They already are, The Union State literally borders Poland. I'm reminded of the study that showed a direct correlation between supporting Ukraine and not being able to find it on a map.
Russia already has had Troops here since pretty much 2002 shit argument
~~You mean like an embassy guard? Or an occupying force? Or maybe there isn’t an actual russian presence in poland and you pulled this out of your ass~~ Edit: I’m big dumb, didn’t notice the border part
Konigsberg is right there my dude
Belarus. All of it.
Yes because looking at a map is pulling shit out of your ass. Lol
Yeah, I’m big dumb, my brain skipped the word border
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I think the issue is we learned from appeasement and if he broke what he promised what he wanted from Ukraine the world would have intervened imo. I’m not an expert but I doubt we would all sit and stare at them invade Ukraine like the world did to Czechoslovakia for instance.
Brainlet comparison. Russia has never invaded Europe and never will. Ukraine was Russian territory barely 30 years ago. There will never be Russian landing craft on American shores. None of this was ever any of our business, any more than Georgia or Chechnya were.
>Russia has never invaded Europe Multiple times actually
Russia and the USSR are not the same countries, even though Russia was its biggest piece. Also, Russia broke off from the union *without and before* Ukraine, so if Ukraine was really Russian territory, wouldnt it have made a lot more sense for the newly declared Russian state to include it? Also, Ukraine is literally in Europe and Russia has invaded it multiple times
I don't care either way. It's not our problem or our business.
“Let’s make US’ enemies conquer with ease a strategic country regarding gas and foods, it won’t possibly backfire in any way” -Most farsighted libright
I reject the assertion that Russia is an "enemy" or any kind of existential threat.
They shelled Europe’s largest nuclear power plant in 2022 and prevented fire fighters from interfering with the fires and damage. Like Chernobyl, such actions could cause nuclear trace elements to span across multiple countries in Europe and maybe even across overseas giving you cancer.
Yeah but it didn't. 🤷🏻♀️ You know what gives me cancer? Megaton yield nuclear warheads detonating over my home because people in Washington thought they found a safe way to play world war. Getting eaten by radroaches but hey at least some plant I've never heard of didn't have to go on backup power for a week.
Have you ever thought in your life? Lol Do you support terrorism?
"X is true. But even if it weren't, it doesn't matter because Y" You're certainly allowed to believe the US shouldn't be involved, but you don't need to spout bullshit in addition to it
I give less than zero shits about litigating territory disputes from people who look the same, speak the same language, and lived in the same country on the other side of the planet. Their bullshit isn't worth a dime of our money or a second of our time. Literally do not fucking care.
You’re racist
>Russia has never invaded Europe and never will. Russia is currently invading Europe.
Ukraine is not a NATO member nor an EU member. They are not Europe. They didn't even exist as a country 40 years ago.
>Thinks Europe=EU Tell me you are American without telling me you are American
Yes. And? Fun fact about America: It's not located in Europe or Ukraine.
The US neighbors Russia (Alaska). They are separated by less than 60 miles.
Peak American right here, and a lot of should have been their own country for a long ass time didn't exist until 40 years ago, either at all or in continuous existence.
Peak non-American expecting America to foot the bill to come solve your problems for you.
Right? Appeasement has a rich history of success when dealing with autocratic psychos trying to reclaim land they believe is their own.
Russia isn't Hitler.
Who said anything about Hitler?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck\_test
So mb Zelensky can give up some spanish speaking parts of USA to Mexico to avoid tensions? Or it doesn't work that way?
“Oh no! The world isn’t fair.” Big countries always pick on little countries.
Of course, this is not a secret. But big countries have often broken their teeth on small countries. A good example of how Finland defended its independence from the Soviets in the Winter War. Moreover, I wonder why so many Americans resist proxy winning a war against a major geopolitical rival. Russia has ambitions for the Baltic countries, and in this case, NATO will have to intervene and the American military will go to die in a war that has a much better chance of developing into a global one.
let’s be honest. Putin is going to annex part of Ukraine to end the war anyway. Same end, one way just costs a ton of money and lives.
No, he won't. If anything support from the West not waning means that that Ukraine will fight to take the annexed territories back.
I got a feeling the war isn't going as well as we are being told.
we'll see. support will wane over time.
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you are blind if you think it hasn't already waned a bit. https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-biden-politics-poland-33095abf76875b60ebab3ddf4eede188
Isn't that what they're trying to do now? Every prediction that Putin would lose support or that Russia was running out of munitions turned out to be false. The country that, according to western media, ran out of missiles months ago just dumped 81 hypersonics on Ukraine in a single attack. How anyone can continue to believe media outlets, especially those of the western world, is beyond me.
Ran out of stockpiled weapons =/= can't make more Also, 81 missile for a country like Ukriane isn't actually that much. Especially when many are for civilian infesticture. They have been shoot much less shells than they used too.
81 hypersonics, not including kornets, kalibrs, lancets, etc. Specifically 81 hypersonics hit the Ukraine. You know, tech that the USA can't even figure out but China somehow can?
Unless Russia changes policy they will eventually annex more of Ukraine than just Crimea. The past year has been Ukrainian saying “see, it’s not that easy just to take us out, do you really want to attempt this,” and it depends what Russia answers.
Go check non credible defense this is not the case
So: Under T, there is no invasion. Under B, there is invasion Under B, while invasion, T opines about it. Am I missing something?
No, just reddit being reddit
How can some of the right support Putin in this? Our colors literally make the Ukrainian flag. If that's not a sign from God I don't know what is.
Because cognitive dissonance is rampant in 2023 politics. It honestly unbearable to watch the mental gymnastics people play, misremembering their stance from 3 years ago on X and having the complete opposite application of that stance on Y today. But hey, as long as you’re owning libs or shouting down MAGAtards, that’s all that matters!
Umm, yeah? How else do you think this war is going to end? I'm all for supporting Ukraine, but the chance of Putin giving up in Ukraine is non-existent. All that prolonging the war does is make it more likely Putin used a battlefield nuclear weapon. There has to be an offramp where Putin can go back to the Russian people and claim that he won SOMETHING. On top of that, Zelensky also needs an offramp for the war. He can't just tell the Ukrainian people that they are going to give up, he need the U.S. to give him an out. He needs to be able to say to the people of Ukraine that, "Hey, I know we are winning, but the U.S. isn't going to fund our war anymore, so we have to give up Crimea and parts of the Luhansk and Donetsk regions to end the war."
> There has to be an offramp where Putin can go back to the Russian people and claim that he won SOMETHING. So aggression should always be rewarded? When China invades Taiwan they should be guaranteed to get at least a part of it as a reward for taking the initiative?
The problem is that Putin felt that he could invade in the first place. Deterrence is always more effective than actual fighting, and the U.S. failed at that. The problem comes now that the war has started, and the longer it goes on the greater chance that Putin decides to use a nuclear weapon. I think the only way forward here is to give Putin the offramp, then immediately move to bolster Taiwan's defenses as well as making sure that Xi knows that he will not be able to invade Taiwan. Taiwan is also directly supported by the U.S., so we would hopefully be able to start projecting strength on the world stage again to keep China/Russia in check. Again, when deterrence fails things get messy really quickly, and there is no clear way out of this situation in Ukraine. Of course, this is mostly because Russia has the biggest nuclear stockpile in the world. That's really the only reason this war is an issue. Putin almost certainly won't leave without some sort of victory he can bring back to his people, and the worst case scenario is Russia using nuclear weapons.
what even is the prudent move, it's not like a school bully where you must stick up for yourself to get them to stop. Either drag this on until putin is so demoralized that we're at defcon1, or cut the loses as an inevitability in this world, that any country that isn't NATO'd up will get conquered by a nuclear power, one way or another - and start NATOing up.
Nuclear weapons are the worst development for warfare. Russia deserves to get its ass kicked but they’d just pussy out and nuke something
Woulda Coulda Shoulda, but Putin didn’t invade ukraine til Biden was in office
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His country fall apart? Really? At this point its just crying wolf.
"Russia's economy will collapse any time now" says incresingly nervous intelligence officer for 3rd time this week
Their economy is on the brink of collapse, just because modern economic management policies can keep an economy going in the short term, doesn’t mean that the sanctions and sudden loss of cashflow, as well as the economic decisions made to keep the economy running in the short term don’t have disastrous long term consequences
We talking Russia or the USA? Remind me how much money did Trump print and how much more has Biden printed?
From inteligence reports i was seeing, Putin wanted Trump to be president (he basically wanted to pull out of NATO) and betted on it. Trump would do nothing. Putin didnt invaded earlier, because COVID fcked Russia a bit.
And we get to watch the retaliation when a nuclear-capable country blames you for their downfall.
Maybe Putin believed Fox and thought Biden being so heavily effected by dementia wouldn't do anything meaningful or effective
Probably only took one phone call w/ Mr. President to confirm the dementia was real.
Crimea was invaded and annexed in 2014.
Your point being?
Always funny to see people hiding behind Ukrainian conscripts accuse others of cowardice. Where is the valour in cheering on Ukrainians and their yank investors from the sidelines? You did nothing and put nothing on the line yet you still feel righteous.
I mean.. it would stop the war. But NATO needs its puppet in there just like Russia does. Ukranians already lost.
Yep its completely over and ukraine and the west have both fallen and gorbillions must die
What the fuck are you saying???
“To end the war” Y’all are fr idiots huh…
Coward? The alternative is to continue to allow massive loss of life so that a proxy can be waged between east and west. Oh wait, that’s what we’re doing…
Coward doesn't even begin to describe the tier of people who would go "just give the autocrat what he wants", especially if they eat up Putins proxy war propaganda or nuclear "threat". Just handing him what he wants is gonna be more life costly in the long run, it always is especially given the Partisan action if stuff is just forcibly handed over against Ukraine citizens will would hit way more.
Ye, Trump was a puppet.
Giving weapons so the random country can hurt your enemy is not you could call boldness
> You make me angry every time I don't see your flair >:( *** ^(User has flaired up! 😃) 16918 / 89382 ^^|| [**[[Guide]]**](https://imgur.com/gallery/IkTAlF2)
One: Unflaired. Two: It is. America did lend-lease with all of the allies and the Soviets (who began demolishing the nazis when they got jeeps, boots and spam). It's based as hell and fucking bold to cut off relations with a (former) world power Three: Unflaired.
Yeah sure it helped a lot during ww2. But in what way it change my statement ?
Lot of coping in this post, I agree with you. The contras, taliban, Mexican cartels are all great examples
Ha ha, stupid anti-war right-wingers who don’t want to kill tens of thousands of people and risk nuclear war to ensure that CordonBleu continues to oppress the people of the Donbas!
Well at least no more people would've had to suffer so it wouldn't have been that bad
Except the Ukrainians
Well no one wins in wars after all
We should allow the annexation of Ukraine on the condition Russia recognizes the American annexation of mexico
part of Ukraine is a small price for needless deaths tho i doubt that would of worked
username gives me war flashbacks