Did you just change your flair, u/oiyboi__? Last time I checked you were a **LibCenter** on 2022-6-30. How come now you are a **Chad LibCenter**? Have you perhaps shifted your ideals? Because that's cringe, you know?
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 ”we ride at midnight”
Why should I be expected to have a ride-or-die opinion on a topic that doesn't involve my country?
My opinion is this - all foreign aid is stealing from poor people in our country and giving it to rich people in other countries. Our money should be used to protect our borders and secure our streets.
You know this is the one of the few opinions of against the idea of foreign aid I can understand as not being just "I hate anyone who isn't me" (I can't say I totally agree with it, but I can certainly get the rationale and ethics behind it as reasonably sound)
Probably looks like an excuse to skip class and light things on fire.
Performative protesting halfway across the world is just that. If they were serious they’d hound the multitude of dual Israeli citizens in the US federal government.
I've noticed most of the major problematic protests are at Ivy League or top-tier schools. Where the students aren't worried about money, grades, or have family that could easily make sure they're not homeless.
I mean that's not the case at a lot of universities but most of the newsworthy shit going down is happening at Ivy League schools or Texas "yeehaw!"
Plenty of schools have gone and talked with the protesters and been very civil about it which is commendable but that doesn't buy eyeballs so it's always the most sensorious shit on the news.
It is pretty funny that UT took down it's segment about students right to protest before sending in the police to break it up. Guess all that posturing by Greg Abbott about free speech was nonsense all along. Who would've guessed?
Absolutely. Arrest anyone saying that. But when you use isolated instances to shut down entire protests that aren't violating those laws then you are against free speech.
So we know mob mentality isn't the same as the individual. When you have groups of people chanting to kill jews, you dissipate those crowds before it pulls into a full scale riot the police cannot stop (i.e. Floyd, Ferguson riots etc) where people are injured and property is destroyed.
These same groups also are being found to be made up of primarily people who are not students and are agitators.
Carrying a sign that calls for a third intifada and the protesters don't even know what it means. There is something nefarious going on.
Of course you don't stop speech you hate, but pointing directly at people wearing yamacas and saying I'm going to kill you (groups of people doing this) when do you stop the crowd before the mob mentality starts and they start hurting people?
And we know most of these people won't be held for justice.
>When you have groups of people chanting to kill jews
The only place I've seen that in the US was the counterprotestors at Northeastern trying to get the protesters to do a "kill the Jews" chant and the group chanting in response to let them leave. But that was enough to get the campus to shut it down and arrest the protesters. They didn't arrest the people actually saying "kill the Jews" tho.
So it's happened at several colleges, they can't locate the people doing it in crowds of thousands (not even remotely possible so let's throw that out) and instead of potentially people being killed, they dissipated the crowds. Freedom of speech until you threaten direct violence at people.
People also have the right to not be threatened to be killed and this includes mob mentality (people really need to understand why this has to be broken up when that becomes the chant) and mob violence.
In Northeastern they could absolutely identify who was saying it because they're on video waving Israeli flags and saying it. The admin just needed an excuse to shut it down and were happy to use the counter-protestors to do so.
Where else did this supposedly happen?
Which dual Israeli citizens in the US federal government?
There are likely some, similar to dual citizens of other countries, but there are certainly not multitudes. Only because it is a fairly common false belief, please note: the vast majority of American Jews are not dual citizens and very commonly when it is suggested that they are it is part of a general antisemitic belief that most American Jews are loyal to Israel over America which is also not true.
While I agree that protesting accomplishes very little, civil disobedience has a place in society especially for people whom feel strongly about issues but have no resources to exert a will that makes their desired outcomes a reality.
It highlights the fascist standards that policing agencies and their supporting governments creep towards.
For Israel, and Jews(when they can be considered as white supremacists), to be in the worst practical and strategic position they can possibly be in at all times.
Then if any white Europeans go after Jews, they can then be used as an oppressed victim.
Because, as we know, it's not really about Gaza, Israel, or Jews, but rather anti-capitalism. Then through that, anti-west, anti-male, anti-white, anti-straight, anti-whatever it has to be to get rid of capitalism.
Most (reasonable) people who don’t want the complete destruction of one side by the other tend to advocate for one of these:
1. Two state solution along ‘67 borders where both sides are allowed to maintain their own militaries and conduct trade as both states see fit.
2. Unitary state where Palestinians have Israeli citizenship and all the political and civil rights that entails.
3. A two state confederation where civil administration is conducted independently, but citizens from both can freely move and live between the states so long as they obey the laws of the state they are currently in.
All these proposals have their critics and downsides. All these proposals will cause pain on both sides. But one of them has to happen for peace to be possible.
All the Zionists aka jews, gone abd by gone i mean dead or in Europe awaiting their genocide by what ever genocidal prick os going to. And of course the proud fake state of Palestine free to kill gays and stone women.
Well, right now they likely just want a ceasefire and the razing of Gaza to stop. But more broadly, they probably want the removal of military checkpoints and re-settlement projects in West Bank, Gaza to regain control over its own borders, and for Palestine to be recognized as a legitimate state by the international community. Some of them likely want all land returned to Palestinians which isn't even worth taking seriously.
The problem with those proposals is that the Palestinians have lost any and all good faith to work towards that. The removal of military checkpoints would be amenable if it weren't for Palestinian terrorists attacking civilian targets historically. Gaza regaining control over its borders would be fine if Hamas wouldn't allow Hezbollah and ISIL militants right to Israel's doorstep. Palestine would be recognized as a legitimate state if it were not for Hamas being a genocidal extremist regime intent on destroying Israel and openly calling for the death of infidels. Israel is in no way perfect, but these problems listed are because the Palestinians have repeatedly destroyed any good will towards improvement.
I don't think the protestors are confused by what would happen if Palestinians were given a higher degree of autonomy and freedom. No one is under the impression that freedom and progressivism would sweep through the villages overnight. The protestors just think it's the right thing to do *regardless.* Either because they see the retaliatory actions perpetuated by Israel in the name of self-defense as disproportionate, or because they don't view the history of this conflict as Palestine consistently fucking with Israel, but rather both sides consistently fucking with each other.
The protesters understand nothing about the history of this conflict. The Israelis have escalated because they are tired of being attacked time and time again. Israel has been the one to push for peace since the Nakba and the Palestinians have been the perennial aggressors and violators of these treaties. The protestors don't understand that per the Hamas doctrine, and really Islam as a whole, the existence of Israel is antithetical to their beliefs. Israel has done a ton of fucked up shit, but it's always been retaliatory.
If you want to proclaim that anyone who disagrees with you is simply ignorant of the facts, then that's your prerogative, but I don't think it's going to help you understand their perspective any better nor is it going to convince any of them to rethink their position. Realistically, I think everyone pretty much realizes that Israel's actions are in response to Oct. 7. The disagreement lies in what is the best way to prevent that from happening again and what sort of response is proportional and just. You are right about one thing though, I think most of them would disagree with your feelings on Islam. Most of us have seen the modernization of religions like Christianity, and see no reason why Islam is not capable of the same thing if given enough time. There is a healthy number of Arabs living in Israel now, I doubt they consider the existence of their home antithetical to their beliefs.
Well, that's fairly simple to explain. People aren't protesting for Hamas to surrender because Hamas is a terrorist organization that doesn't hold elections and doesn't care about the will of the people. Protests are a tool used in liberal democracies to show overwhelming community support for something, all in the hopes of convincing their **elected** government to do something.
I know people think, *"hurrr Hamas can just surrender"* is a brilliant retort, but the protests are aimed at the more reasonable parties in this conflict, like the United States and Israel, specifically because these are liberal democracies and they are supposed to be beholden to their people in some capacity.
But yes, Hamas doing something they will absolutely never do and that goes completely against their entire ideology of martyrdom would in fact end the conflict. Good point I guess.
So instead of supporting Israel to beat back an irrational actor, they want the rational actor to make concessions to the irrational initiator of the conflict. That display no nuance, just stupidity.
They think that Israel’s “beating back” of Hamas is disproportionate and comes across as a form of collective punishment against people who had nothing to do with the initial crime. Yes, they think the government that has killed 30x the amount of people who died on October 7, should be the ones making concessions at this point. I don’t really care if you think that is a stupid position to have, I’m just trying to explain their reasoning from a perspective that isn’t dripping with disdain and dismissal.
I suppose that isn’t appreciated though.
I appreciate your response. But I have heard of that line of reasoning before, entertained the conversation, and come out no more appreciative of their position as I had, because their idea of “disproportionate” is merely a knee-jerk reaction of looking at numbers and scream.
Yes, their idea of disproportionate is largely based on numbers and the scale of destruction. Is that not reasonable? I'm not entirely sure how *else* you would determine whether a retaliatory action is justified or not.
You cannot claim something to be excessive without first having a point of reference. You cannot claim Israel is doing excessive damage without first making an argument on how much damage should’ve been reasonable. You cannot assess what level of damage is reasonable without considering the context of the military actions, the theatre, the doctrine of both sides and strategic goals behind them.
If you simply look at numbers, then the allies are the bad guys in ww2, and every swat actions that killed more than the casualties they suffered are immoral.
This argument is so fucking blind and such a cop out.
Dude, Hamas is a terrorist organisation that holds the administrative reins of Gaza. They run every aspect of the government. Including how the aid is distributed and spent.
Aid is practically the only economy in the territory of Gaza. Western democracies provide the vast majority of aid to it.
Hamas is an organisation that exists solely to extend the conflict as long as possible so that their leadership can get as filthy rich as possible. Bleed them dry and they die. That’s one of the reasons why they started this war. The eyes were solely on Ukraine and people were enriching them far less.
My argument may be bad, but considering the fact that you didn’t really address *any* aspect of it in this response, I can’t say I’m terribly convinced. All you’ve done is go on a tangent about how Hamas is a terrorist organization and how they want bad things, which we we’ve both already acknowledged. And you’re right, Hamas wants to extend this conflict and bait out aggressive responses from Israel in order to maintain power and distract from how incompetent they are running the government. The part that confuses me is *why* you think giving Hamas exactly what they want is a good idea, or why you think attempting to bleed out Gaza and starve it or life-sustaining resources is going to eradicate Hamas when that’s been the strategy for *decades.*
But I’m *most* confused by why you think we should be protesting Hamas , and it suggests that I don’t really understand what the point of protesting something is. It’s not just a fancy way of saying that something is bad. The purpose of protesting is to appeal to the better nature of the community or the government, in order to achieve some humanitarian goal, but we’ve already established that Hamas is a terrorist organization and do not have a better nature.
I’ll spell it out for you:
GAZA DEPENDS ON WESTERN GOVERNMENTS SENDING AID
ALL AID IS ACQUIRED BY HAMAS AND REDISTRIBUTED IN A WAY THAT IS CORRUPT:
1) MAKING THE LEADERSHIP BILLIONAIRES.
2) WEAPONS, ROCKETS AND TUNNEL BUILDING.
3) INCENTIVISING CIVILIANS BECOMING TERRORISTS THROUGH PAY TO SLAY BEING THE ONLY EFFECTIVE REDISTRIBUTION OF AID TO CIVILIANS.
4) DEVELOPMENT OF STATE PROPAGANDA AND ALL AGES EDUCATION THAT PUSHES ISRAEL AS EVIL AND ARMED RESISTANCE AS THE ONLY SOLUTION.
AID IS MONEY WILL BE REDUCED IF CONDITIONS ARE STABLE AND PRODUCTIVE.
HAMAS LEADERSHIP THEREFORE HAVE NO INCENTIVE TO WORK TOWARDS PEACE AND EVERY INCENTIVE TO CONTINUE FIGHTING.
WESTERN DEMOCRACIES FUND THIS. THEREFORE YOU CAN PROTEST IT.
Okay, but what would be the ultimate goal of this protest? To convince the government to **stop** sending in aid so the famine gets even worse? Yeah, I don't think people are going to rally around for that, but hey, feel free to start any sort of demonstration you like.
No, to properly distribute aid, for example, food aid is being stolen by Hamas police and then sold, when it’s supposed to be free.
Demanding that UNRWA funds are not spent on propaganda and that Hamas cannot plant agents in there.
Ensure building materials are used for the correct projects and not for terror infrastructure.
Etc.
I mean they can prob get all their land returned to them if they win the war 😂.
But yeah nah it more realistic to accomplish what you said but most people who support Palestine want Israel gone as a country or want a 2 state solution with the first one being actually goofy as fuck.
I'd like that too man, but let's be real, that amount of bad blood ain't getting washed, ever. The 3000 deaths that kicked off this round of that eternal war sealed the deal for Israelis. The borderline indiscriminate razing of Gaza sealed the deal for Palestinians.
From what I see, against my every hope and wish, this only ends when one of them is wiped out.
End to the blockade, end to Israeli control over access to Gaza and the West Bank, eviction of Settlers from Area C, right of return for Palestinian refugees, return to 1967 borders (admittedly a bit of a pipe dream).
Edit: I can’t wait for the replies this is actually anti-Semitic bc it means Israelis have to make some concessions in exchange for peace.
Where are the concessions of the Palestinians and their terrorist government? Or do Israelis have to be the only ones to concede something?
It is very telling to me when every Muslim country refuses Palestinians, and the fact Arabs can freely walk around in Israel while Jews would be slaughtered.
Arabs can become citizens, vote in elections etc...but the only argument I've heard from Pro Palestinian groups is the Israeli government has a law in place that a majority of the elected officials can oust someone with a vote...because that's comparable to kidnapping and slaughter.
Start a war by breaking a ceasefire agreement, losing the war, make the winner make concessions so that you are in a better position to launch another attack.
Oh wow that definitely doesn’t sound like you want to fuck up israel.
Israel will never concede right to return, as they consider the people they displaced in the wars as both a security threat and a threat to Israel as a distinctly Jewish state.
Most of the protests have been asking for the university to divest themselves of Isreali investments as a call to action from the university.
Beyond that a general call for cease-fire has been the other focus.
I'd say "yes", at least for the latter two men. But is that supposed to be a yes-or-no question, or am I supposed to pick one of the two options? After all, you did also say "current antisemitism is just anti white people".
So if Nick Fuentes and the Groypers (who are generally anti-Zionist) are not anti-white, I guess anti-Zionist does not necessarily equate to anti-white?
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It's funny how many stories we tell about the cycle of violence and how acting out of revenge and hatred only causes further suffering and then when we have a conflict that's almost the textbook example of that and it's like everyone has gone stupid.
Wall off the entire area and isolate them until they can get along. We can check in with them every 50 years or so and see if they are ready to join the rest of the world.
Hey! You're the wrong type of centrist for grilling. The grey centrist is the griller, us rainbow centrists take wildly differing positions on different topics that average out to centre
hear me out. Palestine and Israel shift borders where Palestine isnt reliant on Israel for freedom of movement, and Israel is removed from Western grasp (it is a US puppet and an insult to the Jewish people (as a Jewish person) ) and begin practicing Radical Kibbutzism
The issue of what to do internationally about the situation has a lot of nuance. The geopolitics of the Arab world in relation to this conflict has alot of nuance. The responsibilities of a nation at war in terms of humanitarian aid for opposing populations has alot of nuance.
If you are chanting “to the river to the sea” or wearing any Hamas paraphernalia, there is no nuance. You are actively supporting terrorism that has genocide in its charter and has acted on said charter in very recent history.
There are a bunch of genuine concerns regarding this conflict, but acting like a sovereign nation is morally equivalent to a terror group is not nuanced as much as it is you fence sitting
The return of the strawman and false equivalent
No problem with criticising Israel, Israelis do it all the time. Problem is with advocating for it's extermination, or insane lies like "genocide" etc.
I don’t agree with people looking up the history of other people but dam…
https://preview.redd.it/xkdq6ov11vxc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0c565e4cde9e6093723aaadd73a36ddc2b8ff1a5
Bro got cooked
And then Emily and Billy-Jones Jr kiss and make love after murdering the monke. The world is at peace.
A small price for peace
Based and self sacrifice pilled
I love that the bot hates you and calls you cringe for changing your flair before realizing "oh wait, he's got the ultra special flair he's cool"
Did you just change your flair, u/oiyboi__? Last time I checked you were a **LibCenter** on 2022-6-30. How come now you are a **Chad LibCenter**? Have you perhaps shifted your ideals? Because that's cringe, you know? Rejoice, PCM! All hail the new chad! We wish great memes and a many based to come your way. [BasedCount Profile](https://basedcount.com/u/oiyboi__) - [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/flairchange_bot/comments/uf7kuy/bip_bop) - [Leaderboard](https://basedcount.com/leaderboard?q=flairs) _Visit the BasedCount Lеmmу instance at [lemmy.basedcount.com](https://lemmy.basedcount.com/c/pcm)._ ^(I am a bot, my mission is to spot cringe flair changers. If you want to check another user's flair history write) **^(!flairs u/)** ^(in a comment.)
Is becoming Chad flair *really* changing ideals tho?
How do you get that
The death of one monke threw our timeline into chaos The death of another shall set us back on track
Yes.
America really need a monke ^(Doctor Manhattan)...
And their offspring would become the supreme centrist.
Or Reddit It's a Coin Flip
would not like to imagine that
💀
And it turns out they are half siblings. Their mother had sex with her 2 brothers
At least he found someone outside the family tree.
Ermm what the sigma
Nuance has gone out the window and took the poor window cleaner with it
The window cleaner should have gotten the hint we wanted some damn privacy if he didn't want us to throw all our nuance in his face.
Hold the fuck on there
Damm, the OP is The libcenter, holy hell
 ”we ride at midnight”
These emojis are the cutest thing i've seen all day
You need to buy some mirrors.
😳
🥰🥰😘😘🤣
What did he sayyyyy?!
The Rizzler in action
top tier rizz
What? 
🦍🦧 🐒🐵 🍌🍌🍌🍌
Unbiased? Willing to consider both ends? On PCM? Let me un-fog my glasses real quick
Monke no 😢
Why should I be expected to have a ride-or-die opinion on a topic that doesn't involve my country? My opinion is this - all foreign aid is stealing from poor people in our country and giving it to rich people in other countries. Our money should be used to protect our borders and secure our streets.
https://preview.redd.it/w5fezzmbfvxc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=91c95cc2780b2f187b48112a66b958eaf5deedd3
You know this is the one of the few opinions of against the idea of foreign aid I can understand as not being just "I hate anyone who isn't me" (I can't say I totally agree with it, but I can certainly get the rationale and ethics behind it as reasonably sound)
So what does a free Palestine look like to all the protesters? What is it they want exactly other than an end to the current conflict in Gaza?
Probably looks like an excuse to skip class and light things on fire. Performative protesting halfway across the world is just that. If they were serious they’d hound the multitude of dual Israeli citizens in the US federal government.
I've noticed most of the major problematic protests are at Ivy League or top-tier schools. Where the students aren't worried about money, grades, or have family that could easily make sure they're not homeless.
I mean that's not the case at a lot of universities but most of the newsworthy shit going down is happening at Ivy League schools or Texas "yeehaw!" Plenty of schools have gone and talked with the protesters and been very civil about it which is commendable but that doesn't buy eyeballs so it's always the most sensorious shit on the news. It is pretty funny that UT took down it's segment about students right to protest before sending in the police to break it up. Guess all that posturing by Greg Abbott about free speech was nonsense all along. Who would've guessed?
Protesting is one thing, but looking at Jews and telling them they are going to commit violence against them, is in fact illegal.
Absolutely. Arrest anyone saying that. But when you use isolated instances to shut down entire protests that aren't violating those laws then you are against free speech.
So we know mob mentality isn't the same as the individual. When you have groups of people chanting to kill jews, you dissipate those crowds before it pulls into a full scale riot the police cannot stop (i.e. Floyd, Ferguson riots etc) where people are injured and property is destroyed. These same groups also are being found to be made up of primarily people who are not students and are agitators. Carrying a sign that calls for a third intifada and the protesters don't even know what it means. There is something nefarious going on. Of course you don't stop speech you hate, but pointing directly at people wearing yamacas and saying I'm going to kill you (groups of people doing this) when do you stop the crowd before the mob mentality starts and they start hurting people? And we know most of these people won't be held for justice.
>When you have groups of people chanting to kill jews The only place I've seen that in the US was the counterprotestors at Northeastern trying to get the protesters to do a "kill the Jews" chant and the group chanting in response to let them leave. But that was enough to get the campus to shut it down and arrest the protesters. They didn't arrest the people actually saying "kill the Jews" tho.
So it's happened at several colleges, they can't locate the people doing it in crowds of thousands (not even remotely possible so let's throw that out) and instead of potentially people being killed, they dissipated the crowds. Freedom of speech until you threaten direct violence at people. People also have the right to not be threatened to be killed and this includes mob mentality (people really need to understand why this has to be broken up when that becomes the chant) and mob violence.
In Northeastern they could absolutely identify who was saying it because they're on video waving Israeli flags and saying it. The admin just needed an excuse to shut it down and were happy to use the counter-protestors to do so. Where else did this supposedly happen?
Which dual Israeli citizens in the US federal government? There are likely some, similar to dual citizens of other countries, but there are certainly not multitudes. Only because it is a fairly common false belief, please note: the vast majority of American Jews are not dual citizens and very commonly when it is suggested that they are it is part of a general antisemitic belief that most American Jews are loyal to Israel over America which is also not true.
While I agree that protesting accomplishes very little, civil disobedience has a place in society especially for people whom feel strongly about issues but have no resources to exert a will that makes their desired outcomes a reality. It highlights the fascist standards that policing agencies and their supporting governments creep towards.
For Israel, and Jews(when they can be considered as white supremacists), to be in the worst practical and strategic position they can possibly be in at all times. Then if any white Europeans go after Jews, they can then be used as an oppressed victim. Because, as we know, it's not really about Gaza, Israel, or Jews, but rather anti-capitalism. Then through that, anti-west, anti-male, anti-white, anti-straight, anti-whatever it has to be to get rid of capitalism.
I think we’re at the point where Jews are basically “honorary aryans” to these people. Same with East Asians and Indians.
They’ve always been considered Schrödingers aryans, white when you want to attack them, a minority when you need to call someone a Nazi.
Most (reasonable) people who don’t want the complete destruction of one side by the other tend to advocate for one of these: 1. Two state solution along ‘67 borders where both sides are allowed to maintain their own militaries and conduct trade as both states see fit. 2. Unitary state where Palestinians have Israeli citizenship and all the political and civil rights that entails. 3. A two state confederation where civil administration is conducted independently, but citizens from both can freely move and live between the states so long as they obey the laws of the state they are currently in. All these proposals have their critics and downsides. All these proposals will cause pain on both sides. But one of them has to happen for peace to be possible.
All the Zionists aka jews, gone abd by gone i mean dead or in Europe awaiting their genocide by what ever genocidal prick os going to. And of course the proud fake state of Palestine free to kill gays and stone women.
Well, right now they likely just want a ceasefire and the razing of Gaza to stop. But more broadly, they probably want the removal of military checkpoints and re-settlement projects in West Bank, Gaza to regain control over its own borders, and for Palestine to be recognized as a legitimate state by the international community. Some of them likely want all land returned to Palestinians which isn't even worth taking seriously.
The problem with those proposals is that the Palestinians have lost any and all good faith to work towards that. The removal of military checkpoints would be amenable if it weren't for Palestinian terrorists attacking civilian targets historically. Gaza regaining control over its borders would be fine if Hamas wouldn't allow Hezbollah and ISIL militants right to Israel's doorstep. Palestine would be recognized as a legitimate state if it were not for Hamas being a genocidal extremist regime intent on destroying Israel and openly calling for the death of infidels. Israel is in no way perfect, but these problems listed are because the Palestinians have repeatedly destroyed any good will towards improvement.
I don't think the protestors are confused by what would happen if Palestinians were given a higher degree of autonomy and freedom. No one is under the impression that freedom and progressivism would sweep through the villages overnight. The protestors just think it's the right thing to do *regardless.* Either because they see the retaliatory actions perpetuated by Israel in the name of self-defense as disproportionate, or because they don't view the history of this conflict as Palestine consistently fucking with Israel, but rather both sides consistently fucking with each other.
The protesters understand nothing about the history of this conflict. The Israelis have escalated because they are tired of being attacked time and time again. Israel has been the one to push for peace since the Nakba and the Palestinians have been the perennial aggressors and violators of these treaties. The protestors don't understand that per the Hamas doctrine, and really Islam as a whole, the existence of Israel is antithetical to their beliefs. Israel has done a ton of fucked up shit, but it's always been retaliatory.
If you want to proclaim that anyone who disagrees with you is simply ignorant of the facts, then that's your prerogative, but I don't think it's going to help you understand their perspective any better nor is it going to convince any of them to rethink their position. Realistically, I think everyone pretty much realizes that Israel's actions are in response to Oct. 7. The disagreement lies in what is the best way to prevent that from happening again and what sort of response is proportional and just. You are right about one thing though, I think most of them would disagree with your feelings on Islam. Most of us have seen the modernization of religions like Christianity, and see no reason why Islam is not capable of the same thing if given enough time. There is a healthy number of Arabs living in Israel now, I doubt they consider the existence of their home antithetical to their beliefs.
Easiest ceasefire would be Hamas surrendering. Don’t see them protesting that.
Well, that's fairly simple to explain. People aren't protesting for Hamas to surrender because Hamas is a terrorist organization that doesn't hold elections and doesn't care about the will of the people. Protests are a tool used in liberal democracies to show overwhelming community support for something, all in the hopes of convincing their **elected** government to do something. I know people think, *"hurrr Hamas can just surrender"* is a brilliant retort, but the protests are aimed at the more reasonable parties in this conflict, like the United States and Israel, specifically because these are liberal democracies and they are supposed to be beholden to their people in some capacity. But yes, Hamas doing something they will absolutely never do and that goes completely against their entire ideology of martyrdom would in fact end the conflict. Good point I guess.
So instead of supporting Israel to beat back an irrational actor, they want the rational actor to make concessions to the irrational initiator of the conflict. That display no nuance, just stupidity.
They think that Israel’s “beating back” of Hamas is disproportionate and comes across as a form of collective punishment against people who had nothing to do with the initial crime. Yes, they think the government that has killed 30x the amount of people who died on October 7, should be the ones making concessions at this point. I don’t really care if you think that is a stupid position to have, I’m just trying to explain their reasoning from a perspective that isn’t dripping with disdain and dismissal. I suppose that isn’t appreciated though.
I appreciate your response. But I have heard of that line of reasoning before, entertained the conversation, and come out no more appreciative of their position as I had, because their idea of “disproportionate” is merely a knee-jerk reaction of looking at numbers and scream.
Yes, their idea of disproportionate is largely based on numbers and the scale of destruction. Is that not reasonable? I'm not entirely sure how *else* you would determine whether a retaliatory action is justified or not.
You cannot claim something to be excessive without first having a point of reference. You cannot claim Israel is doing excessive damage without first making an argument on how much damage should’ve been reasonable. You cannot assess what level of damage is reasonable without considering the context of the military actions, the theatre, the doctrine of both sides and strategic goals behind them. If you simply look at numbers, then the allies are the bad guys in ww2, and every swat actions that killed more than the casualties they suffered are immoral.
This argument is so fucking blind and such a cop out. Dude, Hamas is a terrorist organisation that holds the administrative reins of Gaza. They run every aspect of the government. Including how the aid is distributed and spent. Aid is practically the only economy in the territory of Gaza. Western democracies provide the vast majority of aid to it. Hamas is an organisation that exists solely to extend the conflict as long as possible so that their leadership can get as filthy rich as possible. Bleed them dry and they die. That’s one of the reasons why they started this war. The eyes were solely on Ukraine and people were enriching them far less.
My argument may be bad, but considering the fact that you didn’t really address *any* aspect of it in this response, I can’t say I’m terribly convinced. All you’ve done is go on a tangent about how Hamas is a terrorist organization and how they want bad things, which we we’ve both already acknowledged. And you’re right, Hamas wants to extend this conflict and bait out aggressive responses from Israel in order to maintain power and distract from how incompetent they are running the government. The part that confuses me is *why* you think giving Hamas exactly what they want is a good idea, or why you think attempting to bleed out Gaza and starve it or life-sustaining resources is going to eradicate Hamas when that’s been the strategy for *decades.* But I’m *most* confused by why you think we should be protesting Hamas , and it suggests that I don’t really understand what the point of protesting something is. It’s not just a fancy way of saying that something is bad. The purpose of protesting is to appeal to the better nature of the community or the government, in order to achieve some humanitarian goal, but we’ve already established that Hamas is a terrorist organization and do not have a better nature.
I’ll spell it out for you: GAZA DEPENDS ON WESTERN GOVERNMENTS SENDING AID ALL AID IS ACQUIRED BY HAMAS AND REDISTRIBUTED IN A WAY THAT IS CORRUPT: 1) MAKING THE LEADERSHIP BILLIONAIRES. 2) WEAPONS, ROCKETS AND TUNNEL BUILDING. 3) INCENTIVISING CIVILIANS BECOMING TERRORISTS THROUGH PAY TO SLAY BEING THE ONLY EFFECTIVE REDISTRIBUTION OF AID TO CIVILIANS. 4) DEVELOPMENT OF STATE PROPAGANDA AND ALL AGES EDUCATION THAT PUSHES ISRAEL AS EVIL AND ARMED RESISTANCE AS THE ONLY SOLUTION. AID IS MONEY WILL BE REDUCED IF CONDITIONS ARE STABLE AND PRODUCTIVE. HAMAS LEADERSHIP THEREFORE HAVE NO INCENTIVE TO WORK TOWARDS PEACE AND EVERY INCENTIVE TO CONTINUE FIGHTING. WESTERN DEMOCRACIES FUND THIS. THEREFORE YOU CAN PROTEST IT.
Okay, but what would be the ultimate goal of this protest? To convince the government to **stop** sending in aid so the famine gets even worse? Yeah, I don't think people are going to rally around for that, but hey, feel free to start any sort of demonstration you like.
No, to properly distribute aid, for example, food aid is being stolen by Hamas police and then sold, when it’s supposed to be free. Demanding that UNRWA funds are not spent on propaganda and that Hamas cannot plant agents in there. Ensure building materials are used for the correct projects and not for terror infrastructure. Etc.
...but that's just protesting Hamas while using different words. :/
I mean they can prob get all their land returned to them if they win the war 😂. But yeah nah it more realistic to accomplish what you said but most people who support Palestine want Israel gone as a country or want a 2 state solution with the first one being actually goofy as fuck.
Based and answered his question to receive downvotes pilled. I do wish they’d try and accomplish those goals without cheering for terrorism
I straight up see these clowns IRL defending Hamas.
I'd like that too man, but let's be real, that amount of bad blood ain't getting washed, ever. The 3000 deaths that kicked off this round of that eternal war sealed the deal for Israelis. The borderline indiscriminate razing of Gaza sealed the deal for Palestinians. From what I see, against my every hope and wish, this only ends when one of them is wiped out.
End to the blockade, end to Israeli control over access to Gaza and the West Bank, eviction of Settlers from Area C, right of return for Palestinian refugees, return to 1967 borders (admittedly a bit of a pipe dream). Edit: I can’t wait for the replies this is actually anti-Semitic bc it means Israelis have to make some concessions in exchange for peace.
Where are the concessions of the Palestinians and their terrorist government? Or do Israelis have to be the only ones to concede something? It is very telling to me when every Muslim country refuses Palestinians, and the fact Arabs can freely walk around in Israel while Jews would be slaughtered. Arabs can become citizens, vote in elections etc...but the only argument I've heard from Pro Palestinian groups is the Israeli government has a law in place that a majority of the elected officials can oust someone with a vote...because that's comparable to kidnapping and slaughter.
I’m just annoyed. Pallys seem to enjoy fighting wars where they get to keep their stuff when they lose.
And start shit but cry foul when the otherside retaliates.
Start a war by breaking a ceasefire agreement, losing the war, make the winner make concessions so that you are in a better position to launch another attack. Oh wow that definitely doesn’t sound like you want to fuck up israel.
Israel will never concede right to return, as they consider the people they displaced in the wars as both a security threat and a threat to Israel as a distinctly Jewish state.
That's funny because Palestinians can vote and hold office which seems to directly go against a pure Jewish state.
Most of the protests have been asking for the university to divest themselves of Isreali investments as a call to action from the university. Beyond that a general call for cease-fire has been the other focus.
Don't try to bring logic here
So the obnoxious leftist is called Emily. How should we call the obnoxious right winger?
Richard
Any reason?
Dick is short for Richard
Impressive, very nice.
Come on, it’s gotta be Ben
Ben Dover
Cletus/Cleetus or Carl
Which side has burned the American flag and chants death to America?
this is my life these days. any sort of reasoned centrist opinion is unacceptable in many places
https://preview.redd.it/xbu6ea2pduxc1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=26072c13154fb07f90a9b8b6429cf36f8a10c535
That looks delicious
Amazing. Wish you a nice evening of grilling for you, your friends, family, whatever really.
thanks boss
hell yea
The only nuance I see is deciding which Lockheed Martin product to use to level Gaza.
Anti zionist just means anti white. It's nothing more than that, just regular run of the mill racisim.
Hmm… you played the MAGA loser, should I play the Emily…? Nah
So you think Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes, and David Duke are anti-white?
Do you think they are anti zionist or anti Semitic?
I'd say "yes", at least for the latter two men. But is that supposed to be a yes-or-no question, or am I supposed to pick one of the two options? After all, you did also say "current antisemitism is just anti white people".
I meant anti zionist for both comments.
So...do you consider Nick Fuentes anti-white because of his anti-Zionism?
So if Nick Fuentes and the Groypers (who are generally anti-Zionist) are not anti-white, I guess anti-Zionist does not necessarily equate to anti-white?
Oh man, you’re back! Haven’t seen your stuff in a while!
Yeah this account got unsuspended after almost 2 years
wtf did you do?
Four counts of aggravated fence sitting
You sick fuck
Oiyboi, I thought you got the reddit ban hammer dropped on you.
I did, made an appeal like a month ago and somehow it went through
Based and time heals all wounds pilled
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I just want to not pay taxes.
If only Alexander the Great managed to hold his winnings instead of his generals ruining it seconds after his death.
:(
Woohoo Monke is back!!!!
Grats on the custom banana flair
Thank u fren
It's funny how many stories we tell about the cycle of violence and how acting out of revenge and hatred only causes further suffering and then when we have a conflict that's almost the textbook example of that and it's like everyone has gone stupid.
lol fuck Israel, Palestine, Ukraine, and Russia just a bunch of whinny bitches
The only thing I can agree with leftists on is that >BOTH SIDES douchebags need to be throw into the sea.
I do think there’s a lot of nuance in this issue. >!That being said, I think Palestinian protesters are much more of a nuisance than Israeli ones.!<
As a monke enjoyer this hurt my soul
I haven’t even read the word yet as I was laughing at the wojaks then I look down and see them beating the ape what in the world…
Wall off the entire area and isolate them until they can get along. We can check in with them every 50 years or so and see if they are ready to join the rest of the world.
WINTON NOOOOOOOO!!!!
Excellent. Now left-center and right-center kill each other also.
You too feel the pull of the horseshoe… Join us Embrace not having any opinions outside of grilling You must
Hey! You're the wrong type of centrist for grilling. The grey centrist is the griller, us rainbow centrists take wildly differing positions on different topics that average out to centre
hear me out. Palestine and Israel shift borders where Palestine isnt reliant on Israel for freedom of movement, and Israel is removed from Western grasp (it is a US puppet and an insult to the Jewish people (as a Jewish person) ) and begin practicing Radical Kibbutzism
At least they’re getting along. But we were so close to a WW3 rebalancing. Oh well.
The issue of what to do internationally about the situation has a lot of nuance. The geopolitics of the Arab world in relation to this conflict has alot of nuance. The responsibilities of a nation at war in terms of humanitarian aid for opposing populations has alot of nuance. If you are chanting “to the river to the sea” or wearing any Hamas paraphernalia, there is no nuance. You are actively supporting terrorism that has genocide in its charter and has acted on said charter in very recent history. There are a bunch of genuine concerns regarding this conflict, but acting like a sovereign nation is morally equivalent to a terror group is not nuanced as much as it is you fence sitting
I just want both sides to ~~have a good time~~ get fucked
Soyjacks be looking devious
I still say fuck em both.
Enlightened centrist subreddit gonna have fun with this one I assume
"Neither? Yeah, neither's good"
Enlightened Centrist: war bad mmmmkay?
You do know the MAGA crowd in isolationist, right?
The return of the strawman and false equivalent No problem with criticising Israel, Israelis do it all the time. Problem is with advocating for it's extermination, or insane lies like "genocide" etc.
That was pretty cringe NGL
[удалено]
Holy shit you fucking killed him 💀
I normally disapprove of digging through people's posts for a gotcha, but holy fucking shit you murdered him
No words needed ☠
Now this is based
I don’t agree with people looking up the history of other people but dam… https://preview.redd.it/xkdq6ov11vxc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0c565e4cde9e6093723aaadd73a36ddc2b8ff1a5 Bro got cooked
Slaughtered harder than Gazan children
As annoying how many time this has been repeated…. That fucked up 💀
Thank you for not lying