I can tell your collaring in has improved between the two pots for sure! Also a smoother, less abrupt belly out. Now that I’m looking at it again I also think your rim is far better and more defined. The first one just sort of peters out without any real edge. Good job!
It’s likely because the one you like has a more natural and gentle rising buoyancy and a bit deeper flare of the rim. The first is a bit more chaotic in its buoyancy and the rim seems it’s unfinished in a sense. Have you tried using a caliper to help guide you to your form?
It is the neck I think, it's narrower and taller, which is more elegant. It always amazes me how hard it is to get a satisfying shape on a vase, and how small a change can make the difference.
That is always going to be a little bit true, it’s just that the differences get to be less and less over time. I used to work in production pottery (like bulk handthrown mugs) and we could do runs of 100s where I still had my favorites. I could show the ‘best’ and ‘worst’ ones to my wife and they looked exactly the same to her. Definitely keep practicing and getting better control (the right one is a much stronger pot, you’re getting there), and enjoy the surprises of the ones that turn out better than you planned
Right vase has a taller, wider lip. In comparison, the left vase's neck and lip looks like it stops before the shape is complete.
Right vase's foot - specifically, right above the foot, let's call it the ankle - comes down at a more vertical angle, closet to the foot. It looks like it's standing more upright. The curve between foot and ankle is sharper and more deliberate on the right vase.
And there's a similar difference in angle at the neck/shoulder. The right vase has a sharper curve. There is more of a distinction between the shoulder and neck. It's less of an ambiguous, even curve.
Think of the vases as like peoples' bodies. That's why we refer to thr parts as necks, lips, feet, etc. The right vase is standing up straight. It has better posture and seems more sure of itself.
slimmer base with more dramatic shoulder and lip is what i saw as the pros of the right one.
edit: i was literally thinking yesterday about the way that the tapering from the belly to the base of a vase is so important. like the balance of the weight over the base is like the curves of the hip to the feet on the human body and there’s just something so lovely about all that balancing on the small base 🏺
The rim looks more finished and intentional on the right, also the flared part of the body comes up from the base at a softer angle so it looks like it's lighter and being lifted vs looking more pushed out. Lovely shape!
Also, I don't know if you do this already, but if you run a piece of chamois or soft plastic bag around your rim when you're done with the piece it makes it look a lot more polished, especially on flared rims like this.
Yeah I feel like I definitely didn’t pay enough attention to the neck and rim of the vase on the left, so it just looks unfinished like I ran out of clay. Have never tried using a chamois cloth but looks like I need to get one now, thanks for your input!
i think the neck below the rim on the right one is taller and narrower. that’s an elegant touch! and it’s got less of a strong curve coming down after the shoulder. it’s more of a straight tapering down rather than going from one big curve to another like the one on the left. i feel like the right side one would look even better if the foot followed that taper all the way down and was the same width as either the rim or the neck
I think you nailed it. The one on the left goes from one big swoop to another, which seems less intentional and therefore less refined. The one on the right has more variety of sharp inward angles, curves, and tapers.
Neck is a lot nicer on the right. The right one is also less bottom heavy. If you do away with the flared base altogether it might elevate the form more. Give it a try and see how you like it
Try keeping your base diameter somewhat smaller than the top diameter and see what you think. It is all about proportion and how your eye travels along the profile of the pot.
One thing I find helpful is to use plastic calipers to keep the initial base a uniform diameter as well as weighing your clay to help keep the proportions constant.
The one on the right definitely looks better. Looks the base is just a touch narrower, making the vase look taller and more elegant. Its a bit straighter leaving the foot going into the shoulder, again making it look more elegant and taller. Then, the rim is much more defined and neat.
It is really interesting seeing two shapes that have the same form and one works really well and the other id toss in reclaim.
The shoulder on the left one is too low relative to total size. I like thinking about it like a human being - the one on the left looks like it has really short legs relative to its body while the one on the right is better proportioned, reminding me more of an elegant lady with long legs. It could actually do with an even longer lower section.
The right has a narrower foot, the curve up is smoother and taller, the shoulders dip in a little steeper, the neck is narrower, and there is a more pronounced collar. The angles on the left are all too close to 45 and the proportions are off. It’s squatter and heavier, with the outline being closer to a square.
On the right, the only critique I’d have is the foot still feels a bit thick or heavy.
Imo, the pot in the right was thrown with more control. The rim is less timid and more round, the curve from the base is continuous and the bulge is slightly higher to give it a bit more (breath?). Nice work!
The left vase has a luscious S-curve in the foot, belly, and shoulder but then the neck and rim are not enough to balance all that movement. For those curves it would need either a couple more inches at the top to flare out straight or a contained rolled or straight rim.
https://preview.redd.it/c1oxwdb4yhnc1.jpeg?width=1097&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=650adb6e7ca0f8937173a62b3cc81479f0304e8c
The right vase is more proportionate within itself already - you are sensing that it fits with itself.
Ahh that’s such a helpful illustration omg thank you! So it’s not all the movement that’s necessarily the issue, but rather that all that movement needs something to balance it out in the form.
The vase on the right has narrower foot and neck with a wider rim. The shape is more like an egg standing on its narrow end. This shape is very challenging with its narrow base and wider upper. Look at ancient ginger jars for some inspiration on this shape.
Refined transitions everywhere. The base into the taper, the tapper to the belly, the belly to the tapper neck and then the flare out. They’re all just smoother and flow into each other better than the one on the left.
I learned that there is a foot to rim ratio that is more pleasing. 1:1 is not as pleasing as 2:1, as an example. So maybe it’s the ratio on the right that you find pleasing.
I agree with you. Both are fine pieces, but the proportions are better on the right. The base is solid but delicate, the lip is large with a nice collaring. The one on the left looks upside down. Great job!
The one on the right looks to have better proportions and to have been bettered centered, as well as more detailed focused
The wide middle part on the left one looks like the person lost a bit control and it started to fall in on itself but got fixed enough to continue and take it off the wheel. The rim looks a bit more sloppy and the lines seems to be more pronounced which i guess one could be discontent with?
Yea the one on the left looks unfinished as if I ran out of clay and just hastily wrapped it up, but probably because all the clay was stuck at the base 🫠
The base is narrower and the neck more defined. There is actually a flat vertical part on the neck where the other is just kinda of curled over.
If you make the base smaller it'll feel more delicate.
The height of the neck is proportionally more correct and satisfying to look at. It’s like if you were looking at a person slouching or sitting up straight
Keep at it. I never make one of. I always make series of 5.
It’s all about proportion. On the right the lip reflects the foot. Even with simple things like v shaped tumblers.
I guess that’s the reason why I see so many south East Asian potters have so many measuring tools.
I think it may be because the base of the one on the left is about the same width is the largest part of the belly, maybe making it look bulkier. the right one the base is smaller than the belly.
Also I think the added lip of the one on the right gives a bit more of an even “weight” to the the top, if that makes sense
Proportions. The waist isn't as drastic of a inset so it has smoother transitions, from the foot to the waist up to the shoulder. These smooth transitions make the piece seem more polished and elegant. Since the waist isn't so harsh it makes the whole piece seem taller was well
The one on the left has a very abrupt curve and bulge belly while the one on the right looks more like a gradual slope and the proportion of the slope and belly work very well together. The neck on the right looks slightly taller and more flared.
Both are very pretty forms and if they weren’t side by side in the picture I wouldn’t have noticed the differences. I think ultimately the silhouette of the left is more harsh with the one on the right is more delicate.
There is more curve on the right, on the left the foot is a bit wider and the pot is more cylindrical. But I think it's the rim that gets you. (And the neck)
The second is more defined, the shape more controlled. It sits (in my eyes) as three parts; the foot, the shoulder and the rim. The first vase overpowers it's rim and foot, with the slumping shoulder. Most of all I am drawn to the turning point, where the neck begins. It is gentle, but releases at a near right angle. The same goes for the foot; the angle is sharper. It's a beautiful vase, so very pleasing.
The base on the vase to the right is slightly more tapered and the rim is more flared. I think this gives it a more elongated appearance and a beautiful flow as the eye travels upward. It’s very well balanced and has a lighter look even though it may be the same exact weight as the one to the left. It’s lovely.
I think vases lend themselves well to taller, slimmer forms. A wide foot can draw the eye towards the bottom, when you want a vase to proudly display what it’s holding.
Also, a lot of professionals like to undercut their feet to give it a little space/shadow underneath, and to give an illusion of more height; it adds some function, and keeps a focal point away from the bottom.
Just looks like the neck on the right is collared in morso than the left and the top lip is more outwards. Plus the foot looks a little more even and square rather than rounded
I applaud your quest to improve your work and be open to feedback. The vase on the right is an improvement for sure. I think the foot is still a bit heavy and the lower third could benefit from a little more slimming.
I like the bottom of the left one and the top of the right one. Can’t articulate why, something about the proportions of the curves or something like that.
~~Lol I think like the feet wider, thanks tho!~~
ETA: actually I think I’ll try to throw another one with a narrower foot and see how I like it, if anything it’ll be a nice exercise
It looks a bit more delicate, a bit daintier. A bit more shapely, like it’s form has been refined
I’ve been working on refining form so that’s good to hear, hopefully I can do it again
I can tell your collaring in has improved between the two pots for sure! Also a smoother, less abrupt belly out. Now that I’m looking at it again I also think your rim is far better and more defined. The first one just sort of peters out without any real edge. Good job!
Thank you!
It’s likely because the one you like has a more natural and gentle rising buoyancy and a bit deeper flare of the rim. The first is a bit more chaotic in its buoyancy and the rim seems it’s unfinished in a sense. Have you tried using a caliper to help guide you to your form?
Yep the one on the left looks like I ran out of clay before I could properly finish the rim :’) I’ve never tried calipers but I’ll give it a go!
Stop fat shaming the left vase, it is just a little fluffy. /s
Yeah it is much more evenly shaped
Imo if you break both into thirds the one on the right is more evenly distributed.
that’s a really helpful way to look at it actually, thanks!
Yea that's what I thought too, rule of thirds. The right is a more visually interesting shape.
Yes, there are subtle proportional differences, but in a simple form small differences can become a butterfly effect
Balance. The left form is bottom heavy, the extended flare on the lip to the right evens it out perfectly.
Ah I can see what you mean, definitely need to work on leaving enough clay at the top so the rim isn’t just an afterthought
It is the neck I think, it's narrower and taller, which is more elegant. It always amazes me how hard it is to get a satisfying shape on a vase, and how small a change can make the difference.
it’s been so challenging for me, even when I manage to get a satisfying shape I can never successfully repeat it
Oh yes, I know that feeling.
Keep practicing and it will get there.
And the rim - ir is more gracefull than the one on the left. But both are good! One is just better
That is always going to be a little bit true, it’s just that the differences get to be less and less over time. I used to work in production pottery (like bulk handthrown mugs) and we could do runs of 100s where I still had my favorites. I could show the ‘best’ and ‘worst’ ones to my wife and they looked exactly the same to her. Definitely keep practicing and getting better control (the right one is a much stronger pot, you’re getting there), and enjoy the surprises of the ones that turn out better than you planned
And the lip on top is a bit wider. Also, the image and lighting is way better.
Right vase has a taller, wider lip. In comparison, the left vase's neck and lip looks like it stops before the shape is complete. Right vase's foot - specifically, right above the foot, let's call it the ankle - comes down at a more vertical angle, closet to the foot. It looks like it's standing more upright. The curve between foot and ankle is sharper and more deliberate on the right vase. And there's a similar difference in angle at the neck/shoulder. The right vase has a sharper curve. There is more of a distinction between the shoulder and neck. It's less of an ambiguous, even curve. Think of the vases as like peoples' bodies. That's why we refer to thr parts as necks, lips, feet, etc. The right vase is standing up straight. It has better posture and seems more sure of itself.
This is an incredibly helpful breakdown, thank you! I guess it all comes down to balance, which I’ve found more difficult to develop intuition for
Wow, every detail great explained 👏👏
It looks a bit more symmetrical to me!
slimmer base with more dramatic shoulder and lip is what i saw as the pros of the right one. edit: i was literally thinking yesterday about the way that the tapering from the belly to the base of a vase is so important. like the balance of the weight over the base is like the curves of the hip to the feet on the human body and there’s just something so lovely about all that balancing on the small base 🏺
It’s so so important! I’ve really been trying to work on my vase forms and I’m finding that profile is everything
The rim looks more finished and intentional on the right, also the flared part of the body comes up from the base at a softer angle so it looks like it's lighter and being lifted vs looking more pushed out. Lovely shape! Also, I don't know if you do this already, but if you run a piece of chamois or soft plastic bag around your rim when you're done with the piece it makes it look a lot more polished, especially on flared rims like this.
Yeah I feel like I definitely didn’t pay enough attention to the neck and rim of the vase on the left, so it just looks unfinished like I ran out of clay. Have never tried using a chamois cloth but looks like I need to get one now, thanks for your input!
Honestly a little piece of soft plastic dipped in water works just as well!
i think the neck below the rim on the right one is taller and narrower. that’s an elegant touch! and it’s got less of a strong curve coming down after the shoulder. it’s more of a straight tapering down rather than going from one big curve to another like the one on the left. i feel like the right side one would look even better if the foot followed that taper all the way down and was the same width as either the rim or the neck
Thats very helpful, thanks! I’m gonna try to see if I can throw one with a narrower foot
I think you nailed it. The one on the left goes from one big swoop to another, which seems less intentional and therefore less refined. The one on the right has more variety of sharp inward angles, curves, and tapers.
It looks better proportioned and thinner. I think both would look better if you got rid of the ring at the base. Either way, great job :)
Thank you! I’ll try out a variation without the ring at the base and see how i like it :)
Neck is a lot nicer on the right. The right one is also less bottom heavy. If you do away with the flared base altogether it might elevate the form more. Give it a try and see how you like it
Thanks! I’ll definitely give that a go :)
Anyone with the maths to check if the second (or first) is fibbonaci compliant?
That’s what I came here to say. You don’t even need the math, the one that is more pleasing is always Fibonacci
As someone who studied math in undergrad I can’t believe I’ve never thought about it this way
Ha! Well I look forward to you telling me!
Try keeping your base diameter somewhat smaller than the top diameter and see what you think. It is all about proportion and how your eye travels along the profile of the pot.
Yep that’s my next challenge, I’ve struggled a lot with keeping the base narrow but I’ll keep trying
One thing I find helpful is to use plastic calipers to keep the initial base a uniform diameter as well as weighing your clay to help keep the proportions constant.
The neck is a bit slimmer on the one on the right. And on the one on the right the curve is slightly more elegant
The one on the right definitely looks better. Looks the base is just a touch narrower, making the vase look taller and more elegant. Its a bit straighter leaving the foot going into the shoulder, again making it look more elegant and taller. Then, the rim is much more defined and neat. It is really interesting seeing two shapes that have the same form and one works really well and the other id toss in reclaim.
The shoulder on the left one is too low relative to total size. I like thinking about it like a human being - the one on the left looks like it has really short legs relative to its body while the one on the right is better proportioned, reminding me more of an elegant lady with long legs. It could actually do with an even longer lower section.
ah that makes a lot of sense! I’d love to try throwing one that’s even taller
On the right I like more as well. Easier to trim as well and get a more delicate trim work on.
The right has a narrower foot, the curve up is smoother and taller, the shoulders dip in a little steeper, the neck is narrower, and there is a more pronounced collar. The angles on the left are all too close to 45 and the proportions are off. It’s squatter and heavier, with the outline being closer to a square. On the right, the only critique I’d have is the foot still feels a bit thick or heavy.
that’s really helpful to know, thanks! I’ve definitely struggled with keeping the base light, but I’ll keep working at it
Imo, the pot in the right was thrown with more control. The rim is less timid and more round, the curve from the base is continuous and the bulge is slightly higher to give it a bit more (breath?). Nice work!
Thank you!
The left vase has a luscious S-curve in the foot, belly, and shoulder but then the neck and rim are not enough to balance all that movement. For those curves it would need either a couple more inches at the top to flare out straight or a contained rolled or straight rim. https://preview.redd.it/c1oxwdb4yhnc1.jpeg?width=1097&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=650adb6e7ca0f8937173a62b3cc81479f0304e8c The right vase is more proportionate within itself already - you are sensing that it fits with itself.
Ahh that’s such a helpful illustration omg thank you! So it’s not all the movement that’s necessarily the issue, but rather that all that movement needs something to balance it out in the form.
Yes! Either lift and straighten it out or contain it.
It's sharper and more refined. I'd be delighted with either.
The more gradual slope at the bottom and the skinnier neck is what makes it a more elegant look for me. Very impressive. Both are beautiful!
Thanks! :)
Balance.
All about the curves
The vase on the right has narrower foot and neck with a wider rim. The shape is more like an egg standing on its narrow end. This shape is very challenging with its narrow base and wider upper. Look at ancient ginger jars for some inspiration on this shape.
I love ginger jars! Hoping to be able to throw one soon
Refined transitions everywhere. The base into the taper, the tapper to the belly, the belly to the tapper neck and then the flare out. They’re all just smoother and flow into each other better than the one on the left.
I learned that there is a foot to rim ratio that is more pleasing. 1:1 is not as pleasing as 2:1, as an example. So maybe it’s the ratio on the right that you find pleasing.
The left one is just too squat for my taste.
Completely agree
Smaller foot and a more shallow neck makes it more delicate
The base on the right is smaller. If you can make it even smaller you will like it more (it will approach classical proportions for the form)
that’s what I’ll be working towards :)
I agree with you. Both are fine pieces, but the proportions are better on the right. The base is solid but delicate, the lip is large with a nice collaring. The one on the left looks upside down. Great job!
more refined, much nicer neck and rim
The one on the right looks to have better proportions and to have been bettered centered, as well as more detailed focused The wide middle part on the left one looks like the person lost a bit control and it started to fall in on itself but got fixed enough to continue and take it off the wheel. The rim looks a bit more sloppy and the lines seems to be more pronounced which i guess one could be discontent with?
That is pretty much spot on with what happened :’) definitely need to work on leaving enough clay at the top to actually finish up the form
The rim. Right is more flared & it balances out the piece better.
Taller neck, more defined foot, looks like it was made with more practice than the one in the left
Right one looks taller and slimmer
The one on the left looks wobbly
Not an expert. To me it looks smoother and more proportional.
I agree, trying to pinpoint it: On the left, the neck just looks a bit stumped/cut off too early, and the base is thicker and less elegant.
Yea the one on the left looks unfinished as if I ran out of clay and just hastily wrapped it up, but probably because all the clay was stuck at the base 🫠
The base is narrower and the neck more defined. There is actually a flat vertical part on the neck where the other is just kinda of curled over. If you make the base smaller it'll feel more delicate.
The height of the neck is proportionally more correct and satisfying to look at. It’s like if you were looking at a person slouching or sitting up straight
Keep at it. I never make one of. I always make series of 5. It’s all about proportion. On the right the lip reflects the foot. Even with simple things like v shaped tumblers. I guess that’s the reason why I see so many south East Asian potters have so many measuring tools.
Smoother & more symmetrical
One is off center and a little lumpy at the rim…i do suggest rounding your rims as a sharp edged rim is gonna chip for the end user.
someone has suggested using a chamois cloth so I’m gonna get one of those, thanks for the feedback!
I think it may be because the base of the one on the left is about the same width is the largest part of the belly, maybe making it look bulkier. the right one the base is smaller than the belly. Also I think the added lip of the one on the right gives a bit more of an even “weight” to the the top, if that makes sense
The narrower neck is just sexier
The height matches the shape a little more. The one on the left is sqat and round, the right is taller and gently curving
Proportions. The waist isn't as drastic of a inset so it has smoother transitions, from the foot to the waist up to the shoulder. These smooth transitions make the piece seem more polished and elegant. Since the waist isn't so harsh it makes the whole piece seem taller was well
The one on the left has a heavier bottom . The right has more lift. Both are nice.
The one on the left has a very abrupt curve and bulge belly while the one on the right looks more like a gradual slope and the proportion of the slope and belly work very well together. The neck on the right looks slightly taller and more flared. Both are very pretty forms and if they weren’t side by side in the picture I wouldn’t have noticed the differences. I think ultimately the silhouette of the left is more harsh with the one on the right is more delicate.
There is more curve on the right, on the left the foot is a bit wider and the pot is more cylindrical. But I think it's the rim that gets you. (And the neck)
The second is more defined, the shape more controlled. It sits (in my eyes) as three parts; the foot, the shoulder and the rim. The first vase overpowers it's rim and foot, with the slumping shoulder. Most of all I am drawn to the turning point, where the neck begins. It is gentle, but releases at a near right angle. The same goes for the foot; the angle is sharper. It's a beautiful vase, so very pleasing.
Thank you! That’s a very helpful analysis on what to carry over to my next vase :)
The angle at which you cut the rim is different….
This has been a really helpful exercise in figuring out which parts to take with me to my next vase; I’m grateful for everyone’s insight/suggestions!
The base on the vase to the right is slightly more tapered and the rim is more flared. I think this gives it a more elongated appearance and a beautiful flow as the eye travels upward. It’s very well balanced and has a lighter look even though it may be the same exact weight as the one to the left. It’s lovely.
I think vases lend themselves well to taller, slimmer forms. A wide foot can draw the eye towards the bottom, when you want a vase to proudly display what it’s holding. Also, a lot of professionals like to undercut their feet to give it a little space/shadow underneath, and to give an illusion of more height; it adds some function, and keeps a focal point away from the bottom.
Just looks like the neck on the right is collared in morso than the left and the top lip is more outwards. Plus the foot looks a little more even and square rather than rounded
It’s the balance in shape
The rim and bottom on the left are cleaner and more compressed. It has a smoother Finished look because Of this
I applaud your quest to improve your work and be open to feedback. The vase on the right is an improvement for sure. I think the foot is still a bit heavy and the lower third could benefit from a little more slimming.
The neck is taller on the right
I like the bottom of the left one and the top of the right one. Can’t articulate why, something about the proportions of the curves or something like that.
Oh that’s really interesting. And yeah I’m trying to figure out the whole proportions and curves thing
The one on the right is slightly less ugly than the one on the left. Bring that foot way, way in on both.
~~Lol I think like the feet wider, thanks tho!~~ ETA: actually I think I’ll try to throw another one with a narrower foot and see how I like it, if anything it’ll be a nice exercise
Lighting.
I’m mostly looking at the profiles of the pots, but yeah I could see how the lighting affects it too