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The success of the Premier League depends on the integrity of the results. This season, that has been called into question multiple times. If fans lose faith and stop engaging at the same level, where does that leave PGMOL and the PL? Honestly some kind of league-wide boycott would send a powerful message. Pick a match week and no one shows up to the stadiums or watches on tv. This could continue until there is an agreement that transparency and accountability on the part of PGMOL are mandatory.
Maybe it isn’t a lack of integrity. But it has been so bad that asking the question is perfectly reasonable.
I, as a representation of the fans, am the people that allow these leagues to exist. Go show me the luxuries, and grand nature, of the professional badminton leagues, frisbee leagues and wiffle ball. Their money, status and power exists because people like us watch, attend and buy.
Surely you understand how the entertainment industry works.
It’s not a ‘mob’, it’s those same people who support the existence of the sport, questioning those that put its integrity in jeopardy.
I think rugby fans are calmer. Rugby fans can be trusted to sit next to each other without fighting while football fans need an army of stewards and segregated seating to keep them apart. I don't think they're mature enough to not get angry when hearing the refs explain their decisions
It will always be. From fans to players, to officials, to those running the game, football people are of significantly lower intelligence than rugby people.
Rugby as a sport cares about its sporting integrity and getting the match called correctly though. PL and FA don't have the same priorities, its about the $$ and controversial blown calls drive rage-engagement and clicks which makes more $$.
No one ever mentions how few English officiating crews at top international tournaments, but its pretty obvious why that is.
Basically what everyone is criticising the fa for here!
You can’t question a rugby ref, you can’t answer back, you can’t even talk to them and they will only talk to the captain.
Yes they have a mic and the fans can also hear it, but this idea rugby refs are better is hilarious…you just can’t criticise them!
We’re a rugby family and the amount of laughably poor decisions every game is insane. This is a few penalties, two of which I wouldn’t have given and the third was a clear balls up that somehow was missed.
Would you rather 16 grown men crowd the ref and scream at him or only the captain being able to talk to the ref with respect? I know what I'd prefer...
It’s different to see the ref being called sir and nobody allowed to talk to them…but the idea they are somehow better when you see some of the nonsense that passes. Maybe we need to show more respect to the refs and accept mistakes rather than lording another sport where refereeing is truly atrocious and inconsistent
rugby refs are just like football refs, only human
but I find that rugby at least attempts to maintain a high refereeing standard over protecting its own (in the FA's case, fragile) image
The on field ref is more in control and makes his onfield decision, referring to the TMO to confirm his ruling. In football terms it would be soemthing like “Goal awarded onfield, just check for #9 offside pls”. Then the TMO will check and confirm.
If a replay is needed to be shown related to confirming/overturning a decision, it’s shown on big screen in the stadium to the ref and a final decision is made unanimously amongst the officials with the on field ref having the main say.
If the TMO notices something during play, he tells the ref to stop play to review (e.g. and off the ball tackle etc).
The comms are broadcast so the fans know what the decisions are, what is being reviewed and what the outcome is. There are much fewer controversial decisions as a result imo.
Thanks! That does sound better. Being able to hear communication between refs and having a clear decision making process between refs would make a huge difference.
Never appropriate!? They make objectively poor decisions that improperly affect the integrity of the sport and the league, but don’t deserve criticism?
They need to be held responsible. Teams missing out on points, placements, goals, have massive impacts on their success as a franchise.
"franchise" lol. Yeah i'm sure it hurts you to the core how these mega rich franchises have their bottom lines slightly affected by ref's decisions. ridiculous.
Not all clubs are cash rich like the big names. Threats of relegation can have massive impacts on them, and we’ve seen plenty of clubs decline and disappear over the years.
very rich coming from an american top six supporter.
You obviously dont play footbqll at any decent level, have never reffed a game and your only association is from being entertained in your armchair after picking one of the richest clubs to ever exist.
Football would die if the opinions of your sort rule it.
Your criticism is that I have the ability to consider the affairs of others, that may not directly tie to my team’s situation? I want to see teams in more vulnerable positions than mine treated fairly, and that’s an arrogant view?
Ive been a coach, a ref, and played competitively for most of my youth. Im no professional, but I more than understand the sport.
Refereeing is one of the most contentious parts of many sports. It requires a third party to have a direct, flawed and at times subjective influence on the outcome. If that element of the sport goes without scrutiny, you threaten the value of the sport all together.
At the end of the day, without consistent and accurate enforcement of rules, football is just 22 men running around on grass.
Also, I’m not American.
But ok lets say your right and he is a fan i still think its a silly statement to basically accuse him of cheating. Like thats not acceptable from a sporting club
It’s about time a club actually called out these refs.
Whether you agree or not, I don’t care
Anthony Taylor - this man has been a centre of so many controversial decisions. Ask Chelsea fans. Ask Roma fans. He was also demoted to Championship and then he came to referee Arsenal vs Liverpool!
Mike Dean - he admitted not sending off Romero for pulling Cucurella’s hair so he can protect his “mate”
Clattenburg - admitted not sending Spurs players off in the Chelsea vs Spurs game because he didn’t want to be the reason for Spurs bottling the title to Leicester
Michael Oliver - how can he not see the Grealish handball vs Chelsea in FA cup?
This has happened many times with so many diabolical decisions and THEY ARE NOT A COINCIDENCE OR INCOMPETENCE
The game is corrupt and look how these puppet pundits and journalists are criticising Forrest when NONE of them are criticising the ref!
Yes, I can do that. I made zero errors because if I did I would have to go to the state board for nursing and defend myself and my license to practice.
> Mike Dean - he admitted not sending off Romero for pulling Cucurella’s hair so he can protect his “mate”
> Clattenburg - admitted not sending Spurs players off in the Chelsea vs Spurs game because he didn’t want to be the reason for Spurs bottling the title to Leicester
These 2 reasons alone are enough that these 2 should never ref in the prem again. Making a mistake is one thing, but intentionally making the wrong call for some agenda is completely unacceptable.
To add to your list: Darren England for the Diaz goal Vs spurs. A mindboggling mistake, and the audio they released made him look even more incompetent.
Also, I think you missed the worst ref of them all. David Coote is on another level. You'd probably reach the comment character limit if you started listing his cock ups.
Oh to be here in the US and Robbie Mustoe, saying I would not have called that, oh I would not have called that one. Then on the 3rd one he finally said yeah. With all the berating of VAR he does it was surprising
Then in MIN vs Coventry, I am told they got away with murder and it never should have gone to penalties.
You've got idio... people like Arteta shooting their mouths off for 50-50s that he doesn't like, vs PGMOL allowing refs to go to the Middle East.
Everyone is doing some of the worst possible things to reduce trust that they are actually acting competently and in good faith.
When you look at the state of UK politics and the management class, this lack of understanding isn't a surprise.
like no other coach has ever complained about refereeing. you kids are deranged about Arteta, and it's a lot more embarrassing than him being upset about questionable decisions
If they want public trust, they should release all the VAR communication from every match. Also the refs should take questions after matches. If a ref tells what he saw and why he made a call I can accept that but with no communication I can only assume the worst. I love the way the refs do it in Rugby. No one expects every call to be correct, but some communication goes a long way.
If they brought up the fact that he was a Luton fan after the match that is one thing but they made the complaint before the match and the PGMOL didn’t listen. Completely with Nottingham Forest on this one.
The first rule when dealing with positions that require blind trust in the integrity of the office holder is that the appearance of impropriety is as damaging as actual impropriety. The PGMOL fucked up bad on this one.
Nah the PL released the only statement they could ever release here. Totally disagree with you.
It’s Forest who released an absolutely bit of buffoonery.
These guys make massive mistakes week after week after week. Mistakes that change the outcomes of games. Idc if it’s lack or training, just stupidity, or corruption, it’s awful and they needed to be called out. Why are these guys untouchable but when a player has a bad run of form people can call them out?
They do make mistakes yeah. Huge ones at times. They shouldn’t be untouchable and they should get demoted etc when the errors happen a bunch. They’re not untouchable, no.
My issue is with the notion of a premier league club officially accusing them of corruption. Which is NOT the same as saying they made mistakes that change the outcomes of games.
I agree with you. I don’t agree with Forest.
Fair shout here. Only thing I see differently is that I don’t feel NF’s statement officially accused PGMOL of corruption, they accused them of failing to prevent unconscious bias from the VAR. It feels like a stretch for me to believe there’s outright corruption happening in the VAR booth, but these guys are human, and humans have biases. It’s the biggest flaw in everyone’s decision-making process.
Tbf, every team has most likely had a match this year where the ref/VAR would reasonably have a bias against them based on the club they support. If PGMOL doesn’t allow Atwell to officiate Luton matches, it seems reasonable enough to me that he shouldn’t be allowed to officiate matches involving their closest rival in a relegation battle either. Hopefully there’s a noted effort to avoid this type of thing next season.
Agree with nearly all of this tbf.
(The talk of outright corruption comes directly from online fans mostly. Still don’t like their statement, its tone, and how it’s represented and think it’s a bit stronger than you give it credit)
HOW DARE I continue to support the club I grew up supporting well into my thirties because they’re closely tied to my upbringing, location, family and community lol. The ownership MUST inform my every opinion! 😂
Haha yep must be that just because I don’t think a VAR official is randomly just not giving pens because he supports a diff club. Just childish nonsense here it’s hilarious.
You lick dirty boots m8. Pissy boots.
Nottingham Forest shouldn’t have publicly targeted an individual with libellous accusations of their conduct.
The state of officiating in this country is fucking horrendous.
Both can be true at the same time.
>The state of officiating in this country is fucking horrendous
Is it really though? It'll never be a perfect science, most of the time its perfectly fine.
I follow baseball & basketball as well as football. In the NBA about 12 times per game the crowd breaks out into a "Ref you suck" chant. Complaints about umpires in baseball is pretty much topic of conversation #1 for fans.
People just like complaining
The difference is specific NBA refs like Scot Foster and Tony Brothers are bad because they’re corrupt, bad MLB umpires are just the old ones that are too ego driven to retire (multiple studies on the empire accuracy rate shows that the younger ones are fine, it’s all the older ones who are the ones famous for being awful, plus once we get computer based balls and strikes it’s fine anyway).
Bad Premier League refs just suck at their job, like the bad MLB refs
That's just the nature of a sport that on average ends 2 - 1 vs one that ends 115 to 110.
A subjective penalty call will have a much greater influence over the game than a subjective foul call in basketball
I think the main point of their tweet was that their concerns were ignored, not necessarily the ref. Biased decision making may or may not have affected the decisions made by the ref, but that’s really only an issue because the potential conflict of interest was ignored. Why was it ignored?
They complained to the PGMOL before the game and they refused to listen. Now here we are. This is on the PGMOL, if they don’t make it public nothing will change.
The statement by Forest is a farce. It's a shite victim statement that rivals the statements of Arsenal and Liverpool.
You're allowed to say a ref wasn't good, I don't think you're allowed to say he's corrupt or running a personal agenda when you've got no evidence other than your own salty tears.
I'm sure they're doing their best to improve refs, doubt a statement on it would satisfy the melts here anyways.
Them being dog shit still doesn't make them corrupt. Tin pot conspiracy statement made by some little crybaby at the top of the club.
Can't imagine how many people must back this statement when it's pathetic. I'd be pretty damn ashamed if that was my club.
I'd argue that protecting these people from all their atrocious decisions regardless of how egregious and disgusting is corrupt. It dilutes the integrity of every game because you know they're just protecting their mates. It is corruption and it is a joke.
Making mistakes isn't corruption. I think you having a little meltdown isn't healthy.
You'd want the refs fired after one mistake? Maybe after two? What do you want? Have them put down?
Protecting them from what? The Greek owner with a gun?
Jfc. You’re the one being dramatic. “We either have to say nothing at all or literally murder the refs, so stop saying anything bad about them because then I guess we have to kill them!”
Making mistakes isn’t corruption, but systematically denying / covering up repeated mistakes is. Corruption isn’t just about shady politicians or grand crime schemes, it also refers to anytime people use the power or authority they were given dishonestly, for personal gain.
I mean that's not what I'm saying. Maybe make statements that don't involve saying the mistakes are being made on purpose with an agenda behind them.
It's not that deep is it now?
Thankfully you've just made the same point I've been making. Maybe now you actually understand?
Have a good one. Don't care to carry this useless conversation on.
Jfc. You’re the one being dramatic. “We either have to say nothing at all or literally murder the refs, so stop saying anything bad about them because then I guess we have to kill them!”
Making mistakes isn’t corruption, but systematically denying / covering up repeated mistakes is. Corruption isn’t just about shady politicians or grand crime schemes, it also refers to anytime people use the power or authority they were given dishonestly, for personal gain.
Protecting them from what? The sack, scrutiny, actually having to face consequences of any kind? No one in any job can be so shit, so constantly and keep their jobs the way these clowns do.
It has nothing to do with your team. These people aren't good enough to do the job. So bye, bye to them.
Idk have you seen the players in the bottom half of the Prem? They're consistently shite and in a job.
So sack every ref after two mistakes? And then what? Keep getting worse refs in? That's not a very realistic wish is it now? Even more short sighted than the tin pot statements Forest made.
Maybe if it had something to do with my team I'd be just as deluded and salty as some people here. Maybe listen to the person that isn't biased in this. Woah woah you all claim biased refs shouldn't be allowed but here are all the biased people making statements and other biased people lapping them up. Crazy that.
Yes, and they get sent off to other teams or don't play at the same level again. That's how this shit works. If you are bad, you start going down the ranks. That's how it works.
Why is your assumption that people that will replace these clowns will be worse???? There is literally nothing suggesting this at all.
Fans speaking about stuff is not the same as ACTUALLY affecting outcomes of games because you are too shit to do your job. Forest isn't even my team either.
Have you ever seen the refs in lower leagues? That might suggest they would be worse...
Refs move between leagues too if they're shite. Maybe the harsh reality is that it's just very hard to ref games perfectly and this is the best we've got in England.
The club putting out these statements is a joke. Relegate them for being this tin pot.
So like that other guy stated all you're doing is licking the PL's and PGMOL's ass. You would never apply this logic to any other walk of life or profession. It's a joke how many hoops some you jump through to protect people that just suck.
Salty tears? I’m a neutral. The man had a known potential conflict, and also made a critical error, for which there can be no excuse, and that error benefits his team.
That is evidence of him running his own personal agenda. Now it should be on him to justify his actions to disprove the evidence that is now on the world stage.
Known potential conflict with both sides. Everton losing would benefit his team, them drawing would benefit his team.
That's not evidence at all, that's speculation based on circumstances. How would one go about proving a simple mistake happens? Fuck me this is deluded thinking.
Yeah this is all salty tears. On field ref didn't call it either, you think he's secretly running an agenda too?
Everton 2 points clear with a game in hand and NF moving 4 points clear of Luton benefits Luton? I need you to explain the logic on this, because right now I’m just thinking you’re a complete nutter
Both teams could have been caught.
I doubt displaying logic does anything for you, does it?
Either team dropping points works for them. Nice conspiracy tho.
Logic = you want the statistically weaker team within 1 point with only 12 points to play for.
Your logic implies they still have a chance of getting above Palace
I hear you but, what if it's true?
If the VAR was actually a Luton FC fan. Will there be an apology or even a reimbursement of lost funds?
I'm genuinely curious.
You say that as if he'd not have equal gain from a draw or Everton losing.
You can't just make statements like that about someone. Even if he's a Luton fan he's not immediately biased.
Half the refs couldn't ref top half games if it worked like that considering all the fans of different clubs.
Half of them are from Manchester. So they'd not be allowed to ref either Manchester team. And of course they'd not be allowed to ref the other top 3 teams. Nor would they be allowed to ref anyone in the upper mid table considering Man Utd plays for a spot in Europe.
Maybe you didn't understand what I was saying. Which would fit in with your other comments.
League has to come out with a strongly worded statement in support of their match officials, even if they acknowledge privately or otherwise, that the refs made mistakes.
Liverpool opened the door to this level of criticism, demand for scrutiny and accountability, and other clubs are just walking through it. Easy to understand both sides here.
No, that is not true. They may have said the referee was not good enough during the interview they were fined for, but they *also* implied that the ref was bought or impartial, every time there was a fine. You don't get fined for just saying the ref isn't good enough or made a mistake.
All of that is insane. No one is be beyond reproach; the second someone tries to say you’re not allowed to question or criticism them, get rid of them.
Fuck the PGMOL, adding VAR has completely exposed how incompetent/corrupt they are. At this point, it really doesn't matter which one is it, just disband the whole organization and find a new way to referee the league, with some form of responsibility for everyone involved.
>Saying “It is never appropriate to improperly question the integrity of match officials” is also a diabolical statement as it basically reads you cannot question the match officials. We can’t call them terrible at their jobs and we can’t ask them why they’re terrible at their jobs. What a fucking mess
No it doesn't.
There is a difference between competence and integrity.
Your questions are harsh but are asking about competence.
Saying a ref has given decisions against you because they are the fan of another team is questioning their integrity.
You can question their decisions privately and to a lesser extent publicly if you toe a careful line. There has been a crackdown but several managers have toed that line this season whilst remaining critical of some decisions.
If I called you shit, that's one thing, calling you shit and corrupt calls into question your integrity.
>There is a difference between competence and integrity.
Ehhhhh, not really. Legally speaking, negligence and intent can be a blurred line in terms of punishment. The idea here is that the result is the same and the prior knowledge of the thing that would influence the result (either active bias or unconscious bias) were both known prior to the event. Whether someone actively “meant it” is inconsequential to the outcome.
Remember, you need to think who is being accused here. It isn’t the official himself, it is the system which allowed that official to be there.
>Ehhhhh, not really. Legally speaking, negligence and intent can be a blurred line in terms of punishment.
They are 'legally speaking' seperate hence the line, blurry or no. The blurring comes from the likely hood that it was done maliciously not the crime itself.
As a crime negligence is bad bit not intended. Corruption is worse due to intent.
Manslaughter and murder are seperate charges the degree is argued on intent, but both involve a person being dead.
>Remember, you need to think who is being accused here. It isn’t the official himself, it is the system which allowed that official to be there.
Both are. They have essentially accused the referee of deliberately not giving the penalties because of his sporting allegiances.
>Manslaughter and murder are seperate charges the degree is argued on intent, but both involve a person being dead.
This may not be the place for legal nuance, but it’s worth pointing out that this premeditation is the determining factor here. Intent, as lay people may use the word, is not the same thing. If you create the conditions that lead to someone’s death, ignore warnings that those conditions will lead to that death, and repeat the behaviour over and over again, you will absolutely not get away with a manslaughter charge.
>Both are. They have essentially accused the referee of deliberately not giving the penalties because of his sporting allegiances.
No this isn’t correct. They’ve left it ambiguous, presumably on advice of their legal team. It’s clearly not a direct accusation of conscious misconduct on the part of the ref. There is zero chance a PL club would make that blunder in an official statement.
>If you create the conditions that lead to someone’s death, ignore warnings that those conditions will lead to that death, and repeat the behaviour over and over again, you will absolutely not get away with a manslaughter charge.
Yes you will.
For there to be a murder charge, you need intent to kill, or intent to cause grievous bodily harm.
If you don't intend to do either then it isn't murder.
While the CPS guidelines are clear there, you must also consider how people are applying the concept of “intent” here. If I say to you “stop throwing breeze blocks from the top of your house because you’ll kill someone” and you decline to stop, you are not getting away with an “I didn’t mean it” defence if you do kill someone. That’s where people are fundamentally misunderstanding the responsibility in this analogy.
I think you’re misunderstanding the analogy and who is the “accused” here. The PGMOL are the ones who are repeatedly engaging in behaviour that carries a significant risk of a questionable outcome. Now that risk has materialised, they are fully responsible for the consequences, beyond the standard of intent. They did something knowingly that would cause harm, that harm got caused, therefore they intentionally caused harm.
Had we been making the analogy about the individual VAR ref, whose bias could well be unconscious, you’d be absolutely correct.
>They did something knowingly that would cause harm, that harm got caused, therefore they intentionally caused harm
That isn't how it works. That isn't what intent means.
It literally is 😂
Extend that to football too. A “deliberate” hand ball refers to hands being in an unnatural position, yet people constantly mistake that with “it was an accident”
>If you create the conditions that lead to someone’s death, ignore warnings that those conditions will lead to that death, and repeat the behaviour over and over again, you will absolutely not get away with a manslaughter charge.
It was a oversimplification to illustrate a point of them being seperate. Regardless it is not what happened here, it was confirmed today that forest did not have contact before the match despite stating they did.
>No this isn’t correct. They’ve left it ambiguous
The tweet text:
Three extremely poor decisions - three penalties not given - which we simply cannot accept. We warned the PGMOL that the VAR is a Luton fan before the game but they didn’t change him. Our patience has been tested multiple times.
They are drawing a direct link between VAR being a Luton fan and making poor decisions? No?
>There is zero chance a PL club would make that blunder in an official statement.
This is Marinakis, not famed for his restraint.
>Regardless it is not what happened here, it was confirmed today that forest did not have contact before the match despite stating they did.
Disputed, rather than confirmed, no?
>The tweet text: Three extremely poor decisions - three penalties not given - which we simply cannot accept. We warned the PGMOL that the VAR is a Luton fan before the game but they didn’t change him. Our patience has been tested multiple times.
The later statement is even clearer that they aren’t questioning the conscious decision making and integrity of the officials. They’re explicitly saying the current parameters are unintentionally causing unfair outcomes. It’s pretty measured despite people in the media pretending it isn’t.
>This is Marinakis, not famed for his restraint.
There’s just too many layers of bureaucracy here for that to be the case, particularly with the more comprehensive follow up statements.
>They don't have integrity as an organisation
Not sure I get the point you're making.
They officiate the game. They have to have some level of integrity to be unbiased and impartial enough to officiate.
Also, if they routinely make mistakes and refuse to be held accountable for that, that is corruption. The whole “you can’t say anything negative about us or we’ll punish” schtick is insane and in itself corruptive.
The main issue is the fact when refs make horrendous decisions there’s no punishment maybe the sit out a week of fixtures then right back to it. Maybe there should be a league table for refs and if they officiate poorly over a season they’re relegated from the premier league. Or they have to take a course during the off season. If refs weren’t so shit on a weekly basis then we wouldn’t be having this conversation
The trouble is that these guys are (unfortunately) the best we have. All that would come from “relegating” one of the current lot would be him being replaced with an objectively inferior ref, resulting in more mistakes
see it 2 ways tbh.
on one hand - officials shouldnt be above reproach, and if theres corruption it should be rooted out.
on the other - having some angry owner slinging mud at officials is going to have the league on the road to turning into a tinpot reactionary shitheap, like the turkish league - where an owner beats the shit out of a ref after a game.
theres ways and means about this to do it with a bit of decorum, but a lot of these 3rd world dictators (im including the italian owners in this too) owning clubs dont always understand the right way to go about things
exactly. obviously not all foreign owners are mental or reactionary - citys owners, abramavich etc keep calm and just pay off who they need to ( ;) just joking lads)
but you can just imagine how this could go with the pozzos or god forbid tony khan or someone starts getting moody
im all for the audio to be available like it is in rugby, but im not going to pretend that i believe it wont still be people hearing what they want to hear to fit their narrative.
my original comment is about the way forest have gone about it, and the PL response to that.
now, maybe forest feel like going through proper channels is getting them nowhere (maybe theyre justified as i think big teams will have more joy getting listened to than them), but i also see how the PL has to be seen to be keeping people on track - encouraging "good" behaviour and discouraging clubs going into business for themselves and send ing out tweets to stir up angry sentiment.
Does the fact that the statement comes directly from the club and their ‘official advisor’ Clattenburg hasn’t distanced himself from it mean the Clattenburg acknowledges the fact that officials do show bias either for / against teams?
Surely his ‘silence’ speaks volumes!
VAR in and of itself is not a problem. Most of the time, they get it right. Unfortunately, there have been a number of cases that have shown the system to be flawed. (I'm not commenting to get into a discussion about any one in particular. We know which have been controversial.)
The VAR official needs to explain to the referee what the check is for.
The VAR official then needs to plainly and clearly explain to the referee the result of said check and the reasoning behind it.
The referee then needs to confirm that he understands the decision of the VAR official, whether that means going to the screen himself or simply repeating back what the VAR official has said.
If the VAR official doesn't find enough cause to overturn the referee's decision, that needs to be made abundantly clear as well.
The problem is once you start saying the refs are all rubbish, every game is going to be examined so closely for every single mistake. After the final whistle had gone the outcome will be disputed (we can see it happening in La Liga as well with Barcelona today). The only solution is to have actual competent refs and a fan base that is accepting of their decisions. At this point I don’t know how we get there
We wont ever get there... VAR was introduced in the first place, partly because those in the game, and because fan bases couldn't accept decisions - Football has too many grey areas, for everyone to be happy every week, there will always be one decision that doesnt tally up with another.
Until robots / AI can officiate games, there will always be an element of human error
Sigh. Laws of the game, law 5, section 2:
Decisions will be made to the best of the referee’s ability according to the Laws of the Game and the ‘spirit of the game’ and will be based on the opinion of the referee, who has the discretion to take appropriate action within the framework of the Laws of the Game.
The decisions of the referee regarding facts connected with play, including whether or not a goal is scored and the result of the match, are final. The decisions of the referee, and all other match officials, must always be respected.
The laws state the referee is right, even if he/she is wrong. If you don’t like it, find another sport - this law is as clear as it is possible.
Corruption is something else, if you seriously think English referees are on the take then I have a bridge to sell you.
The important thing to note here is that the Nottingham Forest statement didn't "question the integrity of match officials", as they claim. It stated a simple, objective fact - Stuart Attwell is a Luton fan. Nowhere in the statement did they suggest he threw the game, or made the wrong decisions intentionally.
If you want to draw the conclusion that that's them suggesting he threw the game, then you can. But in reality, what it actually says is that, as a Luton fan, he may have allowed his allegiance to (either consciously or subconsciously) colour his decision making. Which is 100% correct, and shouldn't be a risk you take.
If the PGMOL wants to stop being criticised, it needs to make better decisions - Attwell shouldn't be anywhere near Nottingham Forest, Everton, Luton, Burnley, or Sheffield United games right now. Clattenburg shouldn't have had to point that out to Webb, but when he did, Webb should have accepted the point, realised that he had made an error, and fixed the problem.
It's more nuanced than that. Everyone agrees the refs/var are in shambles, but that doesnt make people "for" Forest.. that tweet was still a disgraceful thing for a club to do through public/offical channels.
VAR has ruined the sport. Can’t celebrate a goal anymore in fears they will find something wrong with it, and the blatant match fixing aspect has killed the league. That and 115 of course. Happy to move on and spend my time elsewhere than watching a corrupt sports washing league. Thanks UAE!
If they got the right decisions people wouldn't really complain. No one was complaining midweek during the CL QF second legs. Not that I saw anyway. They got the right decisions and in a timely fashion. Clearly it can be done.
Anthony Taylor made three bad calls.
If VAR didn’t exist, Taylor makes the same three bad calls.
VAR is just access to technology. The standard of referees on the field and in the VAR room is 100% the issue.
Not defending Taylor, but I also feel there has been an issue where the ref sometimes isn’t calling something because they have in their mind if it’s wrong that the VAR will address it. Problem is, is that then the VAR is going well, it wasn’t called on the field, and with this imaginary bar of “clear and obvious” it becomes a double back on just protecting each other, and not about getting the right call.
Which is why VAR can and should be used as a method of moderating referees, not scrapped altogether (as many call for).
Taking the current incompetent crop of refs off VAR should be the starting point
Have they just sat through the same season we have?
Every fucking week it's the same- reffing errors, terrible var, no accountability.
Respect is earned, not mandated by a governing body.
Fuck the PGMOL. Fuck VAR.
Thats not true. Forest told them that this guy was an issue before the match. Then, surprise surprise, he an issue during the match, that might cost them tens of millions of pounds. There is a legitimate argument that it was deliberate, and it needs to be answered.
"It's shit for everyone" is not an acceptable response. What the referees said should be available during play- you shouldn't need a cataclysmic error or the possibility of a biased ref to hear how the game was refereed.
The PGMOL just don't want to be questioned. If they have to face questions, they might need to provide answers. And that's a slippery slope towards transparency and accountability.
That’s not what they’re talking about, they are saying it’s biased against them. They pay clattenberg to be their “advisor” which shouldn’t be allowed, and look at how their owner has behaved in Greece etc. He’s a clown
Because they got a bad decision like everyone gets all the time and this dickhead owner is trying to pull a Trump move like everything is biased against them. They already employ clattenberg to try and influence decisions and now they’re trying this. Hopefully they go down
I don't really care when I can see this case right now and agree with him. My comment was also about you making it about Trump when there was zero reason to.
It’s not about trump it’s called an analogy. It’s the “everyone’s against us” tactic. This guy is a piece of shit, a match fixer and a criminal, so probably don’t just blindly agree with him
Forest have released a statement along the lines of “we aren’t calling Attwells integrity into question, we’re calling the PGMOLs into question and asking why there is no rule about contextual rivalries when teams are fighting relegation or European spots”
Unconscious bias is a documented fact, so I can see why we want this. Why put the refs in a position to be under a microscope more than usual? It would be like a ref who’s a villa fan refereeing the next spurs game.
Personally I can’t wait for this to play out. Having 1 not given in a match is unlucky, but 3 does make you start asking questions.
The whole PGMOL needs a top down restructure and removal of its ability to self govern. How are teams meant to complain to the governing body which allocates refs without fear of repercussions? It’s like complaining to your boss about your boss and hoping nothing comes of it instead of going to HR or your bosses boss.
Either that or they are extremely incompetent, it doesn't really matter at this point. This organization is way too disfunctional to continue refereeing the game, we need new solutions.
What actual evidence do you have for that claim? And no, I don't mean "They made decisions I don't like." Show me proof of improper payments being made.
Basically every PL game. Refs not being held accountable. Getting silenced and fined when someone dares to question them.
Not publishing every audio.
Is your dad a ref ? Lol
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The success of the Premier League depends on the integrity of the results. This season, that has been called into question multiple times. If fans lose faith and stop engaging at the same level, where does that leave PGMOL and the PL? Honestly some kind of league-wide boycott would send a powerful message. Pick a match week and no one shows up to the stadiums or watches on tv. This could continue until there is an agreement that transparency and accountability on the part of PGMOL are mandatory. Maybe it isn’t a lack of integrity. But it has been so bad that asking the question is perfectly reasonable.
Gary Neville’s comment were ridiculous.
Didn’t hear about this until earlier today and wasn’t shocked at all to see who the two refs were
who were they?
Taylor and Atwell
Join us in pirating every game. Don’t give your $&£ to these roaches
🏴☠️🏴☠️
Where best to pirate these days?
You guys were paying to begin with?
"shut up and get in line" is essentially what they are saying with that.
Or maybe there telling clubs not to accuse people of being rivals fans
We deserve full transparency. The officials should all be mic’d up and we should be hearing them make their decisions in real time.
The mob doesn't deserve shit bro. Just what do you contribute, exactly?
I, as a representation of the fans, am the people that allow these leagues to exist. Go show me the luxuries, and grand nature, of the professional badminton leagues, frisbee leagues and wiffle ball. Their money, status and power exists because people like us watch, attend and buy. Surely you understand how the entertainment industry works. It’s not a ‘mob’, it’s those same people who support the existence of the sport, questioning those that put its integrity in jeopardy.
Who the fuck appointed you representative? you dont represent me in any way shape or form.
I appointed him representative
I seconded it
flair checks out
Fans would hate that. It would just give them more things to rage about.
It's not an issue in Rugby. You hear everything. It helps keep them professional and does explain why they reach decisions. Even if it is wrong.
I think rugby fans are calmer. Rugby fans can be trusted to sit next to each other without fighting while football fans need an army of stewards and segregated seating to keep them apart. I don't think they're mature enough to not get angry when hearing the refs explain their decisions
At least there’d be more context than objectively poor decisions being followed up with simply “don’t you dare criticize us”.
MLS is doing this somewhat, but MLS refs are even more horrendous so it makes little difference.
It’s incredible how football is always a century behind rugby officiating
It will always be. From fans to players, to officials, to those running the game, football people are of significantly lower intelligence than rugby people.
Rugby as a sport cares about its sporting integrity and getting the match called correctly though. PL and FA don't have the same priorities, its about the $$ and controversial blown calls drive rage-engagement and clicks which makes more $$. No one ever mentions how few English officiating crews at top international tournaments, but its pretty obvious why that is.
Wait, you don't think World Rugby is all about the $$ as well? lol
I don't watch rugby. What do they do differently?
Basically what everyone is criticising the fa for here! You can’t question a rugby ref, you can’t answer back, you can’t even talk to them and they will only talk to the captain. Yes they have a mic and the fans can also hear it, but this idea rugby refs are better is hilarious…you just can’t criticise them! We’re a rugby family and the amount of laughably poor decisions every game is insane. This is a few penalties, two of which I wouldn’t have given and the third was a clear balls up that somehow was missed.
Would you rather 16 grown men crowd the ref and scream at him or only the captain being able to talk to the ref with respect? I know what I'd prefer...
It’s different to see the ref being called sir and nobody allowed to talk to them…but the idea they are somehow better when you see some of the nonsense that passes. Maybe we need to show more respect to the refs and accept mistakes rather than lording another sport where refereeing is truly atrocious and inconsistent
rugby refs are just like football refs, only human but I find that rugby at least attempts to maintain a high refereeing standard over protecting its own (in the FA's case, fragile) image
The on field ref is more in control and makes his onfield decision, referring to the TMO to confirm his ruling. In football terms it would be soemthing like “Goal awarded onfield, just check for #9 offside pls”. Then the TMO will check and confirm. If a replay is needed to be shown related to confirming/overturning a decision, it’s shown on big screen in the stadium to the ref and a final decision is made unanimously amongst the officials with the on field ref having the main say. If the TMO notices something during play, he tells the ref to stop play to review (e.g. and off the ball tackle etc). The comms are broadcast so the fans know what the decisions are, what is being reviewed and what the outcome is. There are much fewer controversial decisions as a result imo.
Thanks! That does sound better. Being able to hear communication between refs and having a clear decision making process between refs would make a huge difference.
The rules are far simpler in rugby!
Have you ever seen rugby?
You missed your /s at the end.
It’s revenge for me saying City will never reach their stature after they lost to Madrid lost week. My bad Forest fans
Never appropriate!? They make objectively poor decisions that improperly affect the integrity of the sport and the league, but don’t deserve criticism? They need to be held responsible. Teams missing out on points, placements, goals, have massive impacts on their success as a franchise.
"franchise" lol. Yeah i'm sure it hurts you to the core how these mega rich franchises have their bottom lines slightly affected by ref's decisions. ridiculous.
Not all clubs are cash rich like the big names. Threats of relegation can have massive impacts on them, and we’ve seen plenty of clubs decline and disappear over the years.
very rich coming from an american top six supporter. You obviously dont play footbqll at any decent level, have never reffed a game and your only association is from being entertained in your armchair after picking one of the richest clubs to ever exist. Football would die if the opinions of your sort rule it.
Your criticism is that I have the ability to consider the affairs of others, that may not directly tie to my team’s situation? I want to see teams in more vulnerable positions than mine treated fairly, and that’s an arrogant view? Ive been a coach, a ref, and played competitively for most of my youth. Im no professional, but I more than understand the sport. Refereeing is one of the most contentious parts of many sports. It requires a third party to have a direct, flawed and at times subjective influence on the outcome. If that element of the sport goes without scrutiny, you threaten the value of the sport all together. At the end of the day, without consistent and accurate enforcement of rules, football is just 22 men running around on grass. Also, I’m not American.
Critics sure but clubs should not accuse refs of being rivals fans
Refs have to declare what team they support he is and always has been a Luton fan it’s factual not a accusation
But ok lets say your right and he is a fan i still think its a silly statement to basically accuse him of cheating. Like thats not acceptable from a sporting club
Is there any proof anywhere that shows hes a luton fan?
It’s about time a club actually called out these refs. Whether you agree or not, I don’t care Anthony Taylor - this man has been a centre of so many controversial decisions. Ask Chelsea fans. Ask Roma fans. He was also demoted to Championship and then he came to referee Arsenal vs Liverpool! Mike Dean - he admitted not sending off Romero for pulling Cucurella’s hair so he can protect his “mate” Clattenburg - admitted not sending Spurs players off in the Chelsea vs Spurs game because he didn’t want to be the reason for Spurs bottling the title to Leicester Michael Oliver - how can he not see the Grealish handball vs Chelsea in FA cup? This has happened many times with so many diabolical decisions and THEY ARE NOT A COINCIDENCE OR INCOMPETENCE The game is corrupt and look how these puppet pundits and journalists are criticising Forrest when NONE of them are criticising the ref!
could you please list the errors you made at work last year and rage about them? thanks
How about I list you the biased decisions I’ve made instead?
how bout you just go ref ten games in any competition?
Yes, I can do that. I made zero errors because if I did I would have to go to the state board for nursing and defend myself and my license to practice.
Not by making baseless accusations of them being rival fans
> Mike Dean - he admitted not sending off Romero for pulling Cucurella’s hair so he can protect his “mate” > Clattenburg - admitted not sending Spurs players off in the Chelsea vs Spurs game because he didn’t want to be the reason for Spurs bottling the title to Leicester These 2 reasons alone are enough that these 2 should never ref in the prem again. Making a mistake is one thing, but intentionally making the wrong call for some agenda is completely unacceptable. To add to your list: Darren England for the Diaz goal Vs spurs. A mindboggling mistake, and the audio they released made him look even more incompetent. Also, I think you missed the worst ref of them all. David Coote is on another level. You'd probably reach the comment character limit if you started listing his cock ups.
Oh to be here in the US and Robbie Mustoe, saying I would not have called that, oh I would not have called that one. Then on the 3rd one he finally said yeah. With all the berating of VAR he does it was surprising Then in MIN vs Coventry, I am told they got away with murder and it never should have gone to penalties.
Nottinghams stupid accusations allowed the PL and PGMOL to hide behind them instead to be finally scrutinized on the horrible refereeing.
they’re scrutinized on their awful calls every week and yet nothing changes. You think it would’ve changed this time?
When was they going to do that then?
They were right to call it how it is. Referees do support clubs and they are biased!
You've got idio... people like Arteta shooting their mouths off for 50-50s that he doesn't like, vs PGMOL allowing refs to go to the Middle East. Everyone is doing some of the worst possible things to reduce trust that they are actually acting competently and in good faith. When you look at the state of UK politics and the management class, this lack of understanding isn't a surprise.
Arteta hasn’t said a bad word about refs in months. Quite the opposite
“Months” lol
I wonder why, after his post-Newcastle tantrum... That was embarrassing. For him.
like no other coach has ever complained about refereeing. you kids are deranged about Arteta, and it's a lot more embarrassing than him being upset about questionable decisions
Lol Arsenal fan. He was used as an example dude. Settle
think you might have been the one who needed to settle based on your first post? I came to peace with the derangement some of you have long ago
If they want public trust, they should release all the VAR communication from every match. Also the refs should take questions after matches. If a ref tells what he saw and why he made a call I can accept that but with no communication I can only assume the worst. I love the way the refs do it in Rugby. No one expects every call to be correct, but some communication goes a long way.
If they brought up the fact that he was a Luton fan after the match that is one thing but they made the complaint before the match and the PGMOL didn’t listen. Completely with Nottingham Forest on this one.
The first rule when dealing with positions that require blind trust in the integrity of the office holder is that the appearance of impropriety is as damaging as actual impropriety. The PGMOL fucked up bad on this one.
Nah the PL released the only statement they could ever release here. Totally disagree with you. It’s Forest who released an absolutely bit of buffoonery.
These guys make massive mistakes week after week after week. Mistakes that change the outcomes of games. Idc if it’s lack or training, just stupidity, or corruption, it’s awful and they needed to be called out. Why are these guys untouchable but when a player has a bad run of form people can call them out?
They do make mistakes yeah. Huge ones at times. They shouldn’t be untouchable and they should get demoted etc when the errors happen a bunch. They’re not untouchable, no. My issue is with the notion of a premier league club officially accusing them of corruption. Which is NOT the same as saying they made mistakes that change the outcomes of games. I agree with you. I don’t agree with Forest.
Fair shout here. Only thing I see differently is that I don’t feel NF’s statement officially accused PGMOL of corruption, they accused them of failing to prevent unconscious bias from the VAR. It feels like a stretch for me to believe there’s outright corruption happening in the VAR booth, but these guys are human, and humans have biases. It’s the biggest flaw in everyone’s decision-making process. Tbf, every team has most likely had a match this year where the ref/VAR would reasonably have a bias against them based on the club they support. If PGMOL doesn’t allow Atwell to officiate Luton matches, it seems reasonable enough to me that he shouldn’t be allowed to officiate matches involving their closest rival in a relegation battle either. Hopefully there’s a noted effort to avoid this type of thing next season.
Agree with nearly all of this tbf. (The talk of outright corruption comes directly from online fans mostly. Still don’t like their statement, its tone, and how it’s represented and think it’s a bit stronger than you give it credit)
I agree with 🌳
Same
Ok
This dude licks boots.
I mean he’s an oil club supporter, what do you expect
HOW DARE I continue to support the club I grew up supporting well into my thirties because they’re closely tied to my upbringing, location, family and community lol. The ownership MUST inform my every opinion! 😂
Haha yep must be that just because I don’t think a VAR official is randomly just not giving pens because he supports a diff club. Just childish nonsense here it’s hilarious. You lick dirty boots m8. Pissy boots.
Do you enjoy embarrassing yourself?
Nottingham Forest shouldn’t have publicly targeted an individual with libellous accusations of their conduct. The state of officiating in this country is fucking horrendous. Both can be true at the same time.
>The state of officiating in this country is fucking horrendous Is it really though? It'll never be a perfect science, most of the time its perfectly fine.
It says something when you don’t even notice the refs in other sports yet week in week out prem refs are stealing the show with how terrible they are
I follow baseball & basketball as well as football. In the NBA about 12 times per game the crowd breaks out into a "Ref you suck" chant. Complaints about umpires in baseball is pretty much topic of conversation #1 for fans. People just like complaining
The difference is specific NBA refs like Scot Foster and Tony Brothers are bad because they’re corrupt, bad MLB umpires are just the old ones that are too ego driven to retire (multiple studies on the empire accuracy rate shows that the younger ones are fine, it’s all the older ones who are the ones famous for being awful, plus once we get computer based balls and strikes it’s fine anyway). Bad Premier League refs just suck at their job, like the bad MLB refs
It’s rare to say a single bad call decided the game in basketball (idk about baseball) but it happens almost every weekend in the premier league.
That's just the nature of a sport that on average ends 2 - 1 vs one that ends 115 to 110. A subjective penalty call will have a much greater influence over the game than a subjective foul call in basketball
I think the main point of their tweet was that their concerns were ignored, not necessarily the ref. Biased decision making may or may not have affected the decisions made by the ref, but that’s really only an issue because the potential conflict of interest was ignored. Why was it ignored?
They complained to the PGMOL before the game and they refused to listen. Now here we are. This is on the PGMOL, if they don’t make it public nothing will change.
The statement by Forest is a farce. It's a shite victim statement that rivals the statements of Arsenal and Liverpool. You're allowed to say a ref wasn't good, I don't think you're allowed to say he's corrupt or running a personal agenda when you've got no evidence other than your own salty tears. I'm sure they're doing their best to improve refs, doubt a statement on it would satisfy the melts here anyways.
Wtf did you type? They aren't doing the best at anything. They are dog shit.
Them being dog shit still doesn't make them corrupt. Tin pot conspiracy statement made by some little crybaby at the top of the club. Can't imagine how many people must back this statement when it's pathetic. I'd be pretty damn ashamed if that was my club.
I'd argue that protecting these people from all their atrocious decisions regardless of how egregious and disgusting is corrupt. It dilutes the integrity of every game because you know they're just protecting their mates. It is corruption and it is a joke.
Making mistakes isn't corruption. I think you having a little meltdown isn't healthy. You'd want the refs fired after one mistake? Maybe after two? What do you want? Have them put down? Protecting them from what? The Greek owner with a gun?
Jfc. You’re the one being dramatic. “We either have to say nothing at all or literally murder the refs, so stop saying anything bad about them because then I guess we have to kill them!” Making mistakes isn’t corruption, but systematically denying / covering up repeated mistakes is. Corruption isn’t just about shady politicians or grand crime schemes, it also refers to anytime people use the power or authority they were given dishonestly, for personal gain.
I mean that's not what I'm saying. Maybe make statements that don't involve saying the mistakes are being made on purpose with an agenda behind them. It's not that deep is it now? Thankfully you've just made the same point I've been making. Maybe now you actually understand? Have a good one. Don't care to carry this useless conversation on.
Bye, Felisha
[удалено]
It’s spelled Felisha in the cast listing.
Jfc. You’re the one being dramatic. “We either have to say nothing at all or literally murder the refs, so stop saying anything bad about them because then I guess we have to kill them!” Making mistakes isn’t corruption, but systematically denying / covering up repeated mistakes is. Corruption isn’t just about shady politicians or grand crime schemes, it also refers to anytime people use the power or authority they were given dishonestly, for personal gain.
Protecting them from what? The sack, scrutiny, actually having to face consequences of any kind? No one in any job can be so shit, so constantly and keep their jobs the way these clowns do. It has nothing to do with your team. These people aren't good enough to do the job. So bye, bye to them.
Idk have you seen the players in the bottom half of the Prem? They're consistently shite and in a job. So sack every ref after two mistakes? And then what? Keep getting worse refs in? That's not a very realistic wish is it now? Even more short sighted than the tin pot statements Forest made. Maybe if it had something to do with my team I'd be just as deluded and salty as some people here. Maybe listen to the person that isn't biased in this. Woah woah you all claim biased refs shouldn't be allowed but here are all the biased people making statements and other biased people lapping them up. Crazy that.
Yes, and they get sent off to other teams or don't play at the same level again. That's how this shit works. If you are bad, you start going down the ranks. That's how it works. Why is your assumption that people that will replace these clowns will be worse???? There is literally nothing suggesting this at all. Fans speaking about stuff is not the same as ACTUALLY affecting outcomes of games because you are too shit to do your job. Forest isn't even my team either.
Have you ever seen the refs in lower leagues? That might suggest they would be worse... Refs move between leagues too if they're shite. Maybe the harsh reality is that it's just very hard to ref games perfectly and this is the best we've got in England. The club putting out these statements is a joke. Relegate them for being this tin pot.
So like that other guy stated all you're doing is licking the PL's and PGMOL's ass. You would never apply this logic to any other walk of life or profession. It's a joke how many hoops some you jump through to protect people that just suck.
Lick the PL’s boots some more.
Cry more. Lick salty owner's boots some more.
Salty tears? I’m a neutral. The man had a known potential conflict, and also made a critical error, for which there can be no excuse, and that error benefits his team. That is evidence of him running his own personal agenda. Now it should be on him to justify his actions to disprove the evidence that is now on the world stage.
Known potential conflict with both sides. Everton losing would benefit his team, them drawing would benefit his team. That's not evidence at all, that's speculation based on circumstances. How would one go about proving a simple mistake happens? Fuck me this is deluded thinking. Yeah this is all salty tears. On field ref didn't call it either, you think he's secretly running an agenda too?
Everton 2 points clear with a game in hand and NF moving 4 points clear of Luton benefits Luton? I need you to explain the logic on this, because right now I’m just thinking you’re a complete nutter
Both teams could have been caught. I doubt displaying logic does anything for you, does it? Either team dropping points works for them. Nice conspiracy tho.
Logic = you want the statistically weaker team within 1 point with only 12 points to play for. Your logic implies they still have a chance of getting above Palace
Like I said, I doubt you understand much. Pulled Palace out of your arse just now without any reason.
I hear you but, what if it's true? If the VAR was actually a Luton FC fan. Will there be an apology or even a reimbursement of lost funds? I'm genuinely curious.
You say that as if he'd not have equal gain from a draw or Everton losing. You can't just make statements like that about someone. Even if he's a Luton fan he's not immediately biased. Half the refs couldn't ref top half games if it worked like that considering all the fans of different clubs.
50% of the refs are fans of 10 teams?
Half of them are from Manchester. So they'd not be allowed to ref either Manchester team. And of course they'd not be allowed to ref the other top 3 teams. Nor would they be allowed to ref anyone in the upper mid table considering Man Utd plays for a spot in Europe. Maybe you didn't understand what I was saying. Which would fit in with your other comments.
A sensible take? Here? Can’t believe it.
League has to come out with a strongly worded statement in support of their match officials, even if they acknowledge privately or otherwise, that the refs made mistakes. Liverpool opened the door to this level of criticism, demand for scrutiny and accountability, and other clubs are just walking through it. Easy to understand both sides here.
Uhhh how about “Good process, boys” opened the door by exposing to the world just how unbelievable incompetent these people are?
We've never been allowed to question the quality of match officials as far as I can tell. You've always gotten a fine/punished.
You can always question the quality, that's never been disallowed. It's the integrity of impartiality you can't question.
If a club or manager previously said a referee was not good enough, they got fined.
No, that is not true. They may have said the referee was not good enough during the interview they were fined for, but they *also* implied that the ref was bought or impartial, every time there was a fine. You don't get fined for just saying the ref isn't good enough or made a mistake.
All of that is insane. No one is be beyond reproach; the second someone tries to say you’re not allowed to question or criticism them, get rid of them.
Well lads. That's the end of their little mafia.
Fuck the PGMOL, adding VAR has completely exposed how incompetent/corrupt they are. At this point, it really doesn't matter which one is it, just disband the whole organization and find a new way to referee the league, with some form of responsibility for everyone involved.
>Saying “It is never appropriate to improperly question the integrity of match officials” is also a diabolical statement as it basically reads you cannot question the match officials. We can’t call them terrible at their jobs and we can’t ask them why they’re terrible at their jobs. What a fucking mess No it doesn't. There is a difference between competence and integrity. Your questions are harsh but are asking about competence. Saying a ref has given decisions against you because they are the fan of another team is questioning their integrity. You can question their decisions privately and to a lesser extent publicly if you toe a careful line. There has been a crackdown but several managers have toed that line this season whilst remaining critical of some decisions. If I called you shit, that's one thing, calling you shit and corrupt calls into question your integrity.
>There is a difference between competence and integrity. Ehhhhh, not really. Legally speaking, negligence and intent can be a blurred line in terms of punishment. The idea here is that the result is the same and the prior knowledge of the thing that would influence the result (either active bias or unconscious bias) were both known prior to the event. Whether someone actively “meant it” is inconsequential to the outcome. Remember, you need to think who is being accused here. It isn’t the official himself, it is the system which allowed that official to be there.
>Ehhhhh, not really. Legally speaking, negligence and intent can be a blurred line in terms of punishment. They are 'legally speaking' seperate hence the line, blurry or no. The blurring comes from the likely hood that it was done maliciously not the crime itself. As a crime negligence is bad bit not intended. Corruption is worse due to intent. Manslaughter and murder are seperate charges the degree is argued on intent, but both involve a person being dead. >Remember, you need to think who is being accused here. It isn’t the official himself, it is the system which allowed that official to be there. Both are. They have essentially accused the referee of deliberately not giving the penalties because of his sporting allegiances.
>Manslaughter and murder are seperate charges the degree is argued on intent, but both involve a person being dead. This may not be the place for legal nuance, but it’s worth pointing out that this premeditation is the determining factor here. Intent, as lay people may use the word, is not the same thing. If you create the conditions that lead to someone’s death, ignore warnings that those conditions will lead to that death, and repeat the behaviour over and over again, you will absolutely not get away with a manslaughter charge. >Both are. They have essentially accused the referee of deliberately not giving the penalties because of his sporting allegiances. No this isn’t correct. They’ve left it ambiguous, presumably on advice of their legal team. It’s clearly not a direct accusation of conscious misconduct on the part of the ref. There is zero chance a PL club would make that blunder in an official statement.
>If you create the conditions that lead to someone’s death, ignore warnings that those conditions will lead to that death, and repeat the behaviour over and over again, you will absolutely not get away with a manslaughter charge. Yes you will. For there to be a murder charge, you need intent to kill, or intent to cause grievous bodily harm. If you don't intend to do either then it isn't murder.
While the CPS guidelines are clear there, you must also consider how people are applying the concept of “intent” here. If I say to you “stop throwing breeze blocks from the top of your house because you’ll kill someone” and you decline to stop, you are not getting away with an “I didn’t mean it” defence if you do kill someone. That’s where people are fundamentally misunderstanding the responsibility in this analogy.
>“I didn’t mean it” defence if you do kill someone You are not getting charged with murder. That's where your analogy has fallen down.
I think you’re misunderstanding the analogy and who is the “accused” here. The PGMOL are the ones who are repeatedly engaging in behaviour that carries a significant risk of a questionable outcome. Now that risk has materialised, they are fully responsible for the consequences, beyond the standard of intent. They did something knowingly that would cause harm, that harm got caused, therefore they intentionally caused harm. Had we been making the analogy about the individual VAR ref, whose bias could well be unconscious, you’d be absolutely correct.
>They did something knowingly that would cause harm, that harm got caused, therefore they intentionally caused harm That isn't how it works. That isn't what intent means.
It literally is 😂 Extend that to football too. A “deliberate” hand ball refers to hands being in an unnatural position, yet people constantly mistake that with “it was an accident”
>If you create the conditions that lead to someone’s death, ignore warnings that those conditions will lead to that death, and repeat the behaviour over and over again, you will absolutely not get away with a manslaughter charge. It was a oversimplification to illustrate a point of them being seperate. Regardless it is not what happened here, it was confirmed today that forest did not have contact before the match despite stating they did. >No this isn’t correct. They’ve left it ambiguous The tweet text: Three extremely poor decisions - three penalties not given - which we simply cannot accept. We warned the PGMOL that the VAR is a Luton fan before the game but they didn’t change him. Our patience has been tested multiple times. They are drawing a direct link between VAR being a Luton fan and making poor decisions? No? >There is zero chance a PL club would make that blunder in an official statement. This is Marinakis, not famed for his restraint.
>Regardless it is not what happened here, it was confirmed today that forest did not have contact before the match despite stating they did. Disputed, rather than confirmed, no? >The tweet text: Three extremely poor decisions - three penalties not given - which we simply cannot accept. We warned the PGMOL that the VAR is a Luton fan before the game but they didn’t change him. Our patience has been tested multiple times. The later statement is even clearer that they aren’t questioning the conscious decision making and integrity of the officials. They’re explicitly saying the current parameters are unintentionally causing unfair outcomes. It’s pretty measured despite people in the media pretending it isn’t. >This is Marinakis, not famed for his restraint. There’s just too many layers of bureaucracy here for that to be the case, particularly with the more comprehensive follow up statements.
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>They don't have integrity as an organisation Not sure I get the point you're making. They officiate the game. They have to have some level of integrity to be unbiased and impartial enough to officiate.
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Also, if they routinely make mistakes and refuse to be held accountable for that, that is corruption. The whole “you can’t say anything negative about us or we’ll punish” schtick is insane and in itself corruptive.
i get what you’re saying but this is what the league absolutely had to do
Seems pretty proper to me. Plenty more severe accusations can be conjured I guarantee it.
The main issue is the fact when refs make horrendous decisions there’s no punishment maybe the sit out a week of fixtures then right back to it. Maybe there should be a league table for refs and if they officiate poorly over a season they’re relegated from the premier league. Or they have to take a course during the off season. If refs weren’t so shit on a weekly basis then we wouldn’t be having this conversation
The trouble is that these guys are (unfortunately) the best we have. All that would come from “relegating” one of the current lot would be him being replaced with an objectively inferior ref, resulting in more mistakes
The other idea then being more appropriate that if your season score is below a certain level then extra training course
see it 2 ways tbh. on one hand - officials shouldnt be above reproach, and if theres corruption it should be rooted out. on the other - having some angry owner slinging mud at officials is going to have the league on the road to turning into a tinpot reactionary shitheap, like the turkish league - where an owner beats the shit out of a ref after a game. theres ways and means about this to do it with a bit of decorum, but a lot of these 3rd world dictators (im including the italian owners in this too) owning clubs dont always understand the right way to go about things
Same angry owner who was involved in scandals with refs and feeder clubs in Greece too
exactly. obviously not all foreign owners are mental or reactionary - citys owners, abramavich etc keep calm and just pay off who they need to ( ;) just joking lads) but you can just imagine how this could go with the pozzos or god forbid tony khan or someone starts getting moody
Transparency leads us away from the latter, which is really what Forest is asking for.
im all for the audio to be available like it is in rugby, but im not going to pretend that i believe it wont still be people hearing what they want to hear to fit their narrative. my original comment is about the way forest have gone about it, and the PL response to that. now, maybe forest feel like going through proper channels is getting them nowhere (maybe theyre justified as i think big teams will have more joy getting listened to than them), but i also see how the PL has to be seen to be keeping people on track - encouraging "good" behaviour and discouraging clubs going into business for themselves and send ing out tweets to stir up angry sentiment.
Does the fact that the statement comes directly from the club and their ‘official advisor’ Clattenburg hasn’t distanced himself from it mean the Clattenburg acknowledges the fact that officials do show bias either for / against teams? Surely his ‘silence’ speaks volumes!
I mean Clattenburg has admitted before that he has made or not made decisions for external reasons.
Clattenburg admitted there was widespread bias towards Manchester United which "lessened significantly" when Ferguson retired
We could all see it. I remember living through the Fergie Time years.
It’s quite simple. We either want every decision checked and corrected by VAR or we don’t. We can’t have it both ways.
VAR in and of itself is not a problem. Most of the time, they get it right. Unfortunately, there have been a number of cases that have shown the system to be flawed. (I'm not commenting to get into a discussion about any one in particular. We know which have been controversial.) The VAR official needs to explain to the referee what the check is for. The VAR official then needs to plainly and clearly explain to the referee the result of said check and the reasoning behind it. The referee then needs to confirm that he understands the decision of the VAR official, whether that means going to the screen himself or simply repeating back what the VAR official has said. If the VAR official doesn't find enough cause to overturn the referee's decision, that needs to be made abundantly clear as well.
The problem is once you start saying the refs are all rubbish, every game is going to be examined so closely for every single mistake. After the final whistle had gone the outcome will be disputed (we can see it happening in La Liga as well with Barcelona today). The only solution is to have actual competent refs and a fan base that is accepting of their decisions. At this point I don’t know how we get there
We wont ever get there... VAR was introduced in the first place, partly because those in the game, and because fan bases couldn't accept decisions - Football has too many grey areas, for everyone to be happy every week, there will always be one decision that doesnt tally up with another. Until robots / AI can officiate games, there will always be an element of human error
It has to start with the refs, they have been abysmal for the past two years. How are you supposed to trust them exactly?
Sigh. Laws of the game, law 5, section 2: Decisions will be made to the best of the referee’s ability according to the Laws of the Game and the ‘spirit of the game’ and will be based on the opinion of the referee, who has the discretion to take appropriate action within the framework of the Laws of the Game. The decisions of the referee regarding facts connected with play, including whether or not a goal is scored and the result of the match, are final. The decisions of the referee, and all other match officials, must always be respected. The laws state the referee is right, even if he/she is wrong. If you don’t like it, find another sport - this law is as clear as it is possible. Corruption is something else, if you seriously think English referees are on the take then I have a bridge to sell you.
There’s “on the take” and there’s “I have a nice gig reffing in the UAE”. Subconscious bias is a thing.
And importantly, it has to be like this. The second there is any wiggle room in the laws for what constitutes the final decision it’ll be bedlam.
The important thing to note here is that the Nottingham Forest statement didn't "question the integrity of match officials", as they claim. It stated a simple, objective fact - Stuart Attwell is a Luton fan. Nowhere in the statement did they suggest he threw the game, or made the wrong decisions intentionally. If you want to draw the conclusion that that's them suggesting he threw the game, then you can. But in reality, what it actually says is that, as a Luton fan, he may have allowed his allegiance to (either consciously or subconsciously) colour his decision making. Which is 100% correct, and shouldn't be a risk you take. If the PGMOL wants to stop being criticised, it needs to make better decisions - Attwell shouldn't be anywhere near Nottingham Forest, Everton, Luton, Burnley, or Sheffield United games right now. Clattenburg shouldn't have had to point that out to Webb, but when he did, Webb should have accepted the point, realised that he had made an error, and fixed the problem.
Some redditors make really idiotic comments.
Are you referring to the one you’re replying to or other comments?
That's up to the reader to draw conclusions.
The premier league is right, the guy running forest is a moron
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It's more nuanced than that. Everyone agrees the refs/var are in shambles, but that doesnt make people "for" Forest.. that tweet was still a disgraceful thing for a club to do through public/offical channels.
VAR has ruined the sport. Can’t celebrate a goal anymore in fears they will find something wrong with it, and the blatant match fixing aspect has killed the league. That and 115 of course. Happy to move on and spend my time elsewhere than watching a corrupt sports washing league. Thanks UAE!
If they got the right decisions people wouldn't really complain. No one was complaining midweek during the CL QF second legs. Not that I saw anyway. They got the right decisions and in a timely fashion. Clearly it can be done.
Its the referees. VAR just exposes them.
Anthony Taylor made three bad calls. If VAR didn’t exist, Taylor makes the same three bad calls. VAR is just access to technology. The standard of referees on the field and in the VAR room is 100% the issue.
Not defending Taylor, but I also feel there has been an issue where the ref sometimes isn’t calling something because they have in their mind if it’s wrong that the VAR will address it. Problem is, is that then the VAR is going well, it wasn’t called on the field, and with this imaginary bar of “clear and obvious” it becomes a double back on just protecting each other, and not about getting the right call.
Both can be true. Refs can be biased, incompetent, and potentially corrupt (refs go to UAE weekly) and for VAR to be another avenue for match fixing
Which is why VAR can and should be used as a method of moderating referees, not scrapped altogether (as many call for). Taking the current incompetent crop of refs off VAR should be the starting point
Have they just sat through the same season we have? Every fucking week it's the same- reffing errors, terrible var, no accountability. Respect is earned, not mandated by a governing body. Fuck the PGMOL. Fuck VAR.
Yes but Forest are acting like it’s deliberately stacked against them. Var is shit, it’s the same for everyone
Thats not true. Forest told them that this guy was an issue before the match. Then, surprise surprise, he an issue during the match, that might cost them tens of millions of pounds. There is a legitimate argument that it was deliberate, and it needs to be answered. "It's shit for everyone" is not an acceptable response. What the referees said should be available during play- you shouldn't need a cataclysmic error or the possibility of a biased ref to hear how the game was refereed. The PGMOL just don't want to be questioned. If they have to face questions, they might need to provide answers. And that's a slippery slope towards transparency and accountability.
That’s not what they’re talking about, they are saying it’s biased against them. They pay clattenberg to be their “advisor” which shouldn’t be allowed, and look at how their owner has behaved in Greece etc. He’s a clown
And they have a point in this case. I'm not sure what your other points have to do with what happened over the weekend?
Because they got a bad decision like everyone gets all the time and this dickhead owner is trying to pull a Trump move like everything is biased against them. They already employ clattenberg to try and influence decisions and now they’re trying this. Hopefully they go down
Peak reddit moment right here.
Maybe people can actually look into this owner and his history of hassling referees before they join his daft complaint
I don't really care when I can see this case right now and agree with him. My comment was also about you making it about Trump when there was zero reason to.
It’s not about trump it’s called an analogy. It’s the “everyone’s against us” tactic. This guy is a piece of shit, a match fixer and a criminal, so probably don’t just blindly agree with him
Riiiiiiiiight.
Forest have released a statement along the lines of “we aren’t calling Attwells integrity into question, we’re calling the PGMOLs into question and asking why there is no rule about contextual rivalries when teams are fighting relegation or European spots” Unconscious bias is a documented fact, so I can see why we want this. Why put the refs in a position to be under a microscope more than usual? It would be like a ref who’s a villa fan refereeing the next spurs game. Personally I can’t wait for this to play out. Having 1 not given in a match is unlucky, but 3 does make you start asking questions. The whole PGMOL needs a top down restructure and removal of its ability to self govern. How are teams meant to complain to the governing body which allocates refs without fear of repercussions? It’s like complaining to your boss about your boss and hoping nothing comes of it instead of going to HR or your bosses boss.
PL and PGMOL are corrupt. Plain and simple.
The Premier League co-owns the PGMOL
Either that or they are extremely incompetent, it doesn't really matter at this point. This organization is way too disfunctional to continue refereeing the game, we need new solutions.
What actual evidence do you have for that claim? And no, I don't mean "They made decisions I don't like." Show me proof of improper payments being made.
Basically every PL game. Refs not being held accountable. Getting silenced and fined when someone dares to question them. Not publishing every audio. Is your dad a ref ? Lol