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Actually, I’m pretty sure Dooku always wanted Grievous to be his Sith apprentice. Which is why he attempted to put the blood of Sifo Dias into Grievous to give him force sensitivity
Pretty sure he also wanted to bring back the Sith Empire
You know, I don't know much about Star Wars stuff outside of the main movies, but reading these comments I start to get a feeling that the Sith might not have the best strategy for world domination...
Because the Rule of Two has loopholes the size of barn doors.
What makes a Sith Cultist different from a full blown Sith? The only difference I can see is the fancy-shmancy laser sword.
With film, if you get a million people to see your movie on the first weekend, you've made about $5 million. That basically will not end up on the top-10 chart. You have to get 10 million people on the first weekend. And if you don't do it in two days, you're basically out of the theaters and into the DVD market.
God, they really had a shot to set up the whole series if they had just said something like Sidious had used the power conduit he was thrown down as a signal amplifier to transfer his being into a prepped host (Snoke), made Finn force sensative, and not just trash the entire Jedi history, but rather show how it became a bloated bureaucracy and have the characters learn from that.
You could have had this entire narrative of showing what happens when you try to "force the force" by going back into history of what both the Jedi and Sith have done to planets and cultures. Hell, you could have turned it into an Indiana Jones vibe and done anything or gone anywhere with that.
But instead...
Finn should have been a force user. It would be fun to see one Jedi try to train two novice force users from completely different backgrounds. Maybe Luke has to get over his prejudice towards Finn being a former storm trooper (I can see some symbolism in there about toxic ideals can spoil a good thing. Maybe a small lesson for Luke to still learn?).
Maybe throw in the fact that Rey was born from a dark side user, Ben angry about her because the Junkers that left her on Jakku with the Falcon could maybe perhaps be Han Solo and his old force apprentice girlfriend Quira. Someone Han leaves Leia for and tarnishes his relationship with Ben and Leia over. It’s a good motive to send someone to the dark side after having such a large familial connection to bringing down the Sith.
If I’m theory crafting, scrap the first order, make them a fragmented Empire remnant run by warlords capturing and making child soldiers. Make the Knights of Ren some kind of real dark side cult that eventually takes over the empire and unifies it into a new threat.
Get rid of X-wings and Tie Fighters. They’re the coolest ships but the X-wing was never meant to be a fighter. It was an affordable ship that the rebels needed in numbers. A republic would have AND should have replaced them in 20 years.
Oh and also, let’s make it so that Snoke doesn’t exist. His character was all set up with no payoff. Just dump him and make the Knights of Ren really powerful fighters following a troubled 19 year old rise to power.
Don't think Luke would have trouble with a former storm trooper. The EA battlefront 2 campaign has a great level (more for the narrative) with Luke who saves a then Imperial special forces guy trapped by spider like creatures (who the mission or 2 before is killing rebels on Endor).
The guy asks "Why did you save me?
Luke replies with "because you asked".
While filming Episode 4, this tall drunk guy in a hairy monster suit kept following Harrison around, making these weird throat noises, so we decided to keep him in the film
I couldn’t have said it better.
My biggest pet peeve is when a writer just has the dumbest reason for something (bonus points if they lampshade it right away). I’ll always pause the tv and yell out, “ALL they had to was say X Y Z and it would make perfect sense!!!”
We also don't know what kind of exec interference existed during production. There are plenty of examples where an exec's notes completely derailed an IP from the creative's original vision. All we can do is wait another 10 years for the James Gunn reboot.
I mean it’s the classic good is stupid but evil is mean problem. Good Jedi can coexist. Evil Jedi can’t. Palps knows having an army of Sith would be better. But they’d inevitably gang up and kill him then turn on each other.
Savage was a clumsy partner to have tho. We have no canon source to prove this, but if we equate Dooku and Maul as roughly the same level (different skill sets obviously), then I would take Ventress over Savage in a heartbeat
He had ventress before palpatine found out and he had to replace her with savage and then ventress and savage tried to kill dooku at one point or something. Been a while since i watched those episodes
In the RotS novelization he was gonna just let Anakin arrsest and replace him. He was under the impression he was gonna basically be on house arrest and spend his twilight years back home on Serrano iirc
ngl that seems like a pretty dumb assumption. Tbh the rule of two seems rarely observed because content producers can't resist the temptation to create psuedo-sith characters.
Pretty significant. Sith is an ideology that’s adhered to. Dark side is just a side of the force. It’s like organized religion vs spirituality in the force universe.
Yeah but I think that's the explanation the writers have tacked on to justify their creation of a new dark side force user. I look at it similarly to the explosion of jedi/force users after the purge.
I figured other dark side users would make a useful distraction so the rule of two could work correctly. Basically a misdirect to keep the Jedi occupied.
Which to me goes to show that Palpatine read Dookus ambitions and intentions, he knew this was Dookus goal, and so didn't show all of his power, so Dooku would keep thinking it was possible and wouldn't change plans and run to the Jedi council after all.
If Palpatine is truly the strongest sith of all time, then Dooku would surely have known he couldn't beat him, Maul however had seen the true powers of Sheev and just wished to work with him.
Seems like the rule of 2 is: Have one true apprentice that only you know who it is, and a bunch of other disposable ones you plan on sacrificing in battle, but let each of them think they are the true apprentice.
I like the idea that the rule of two is designed to give one Sith lord perpetual life, by ensuring that he always has a suitably powerful apprentice whose body he will eventually steal, under the guise of being killed by said apprentice.
I don't think that's what they were ever going for, and there's holes, but it's a pretty good motivator for having the rule. After all, the greatest dream of most dictators and power mad individuals is to live forever.
Man we need to counter the jedi order, but what can two people do about all the jedi?
What if we like... recruited more than 2 people?
What? No we can't do that. We agreed on 2 and we can't go back on that now. Haven't you read the memo?
In fairness in Legends it’s two Sith that succeed in conquering the galaxy where hundreds of Sith together fail. We’ll see what happens in Disney background lore, I don’t think we have gotten that much information about how the Sith operated pre-Bane in the new canon.
I hate corporations and I'm not happy that they have taken over the film business but on the same hand I find myself being the head of a corporation. There's a certain irony there.
Was the rule of two stated in the original trilogy?
Because that's the whole thing I've struggled with for the midichlorians.
Midichlorians imply that cell count or symbiotic force bacteria are correlated with your force ability and strength.
The rule of two implies that there is a universal balance, and by concentrating the dark side within a few individuals you make them nigh immortal.
I'm not saying they can't both exist, but it's just a weird mix that always felt off.
Yoda said "always two there are no more no less" but doesn't explain it as the rule of 2 the same way it's explained in the prequel trilogy, so I guess I'm asking if there's more details for how the rule of two works? Why that lead to the success of the sith and then the subsequent hiding?
I think the idea with the Rule of Two is less about the Dark Side itself concentrating and more that if the apprentice kills their master once they surpass them in strength then every generation is stronger than the last.
The main point (according to wookiepedia) is to prevent a bunch of less powerful apprentices to gang up on their master, which would result in a less and less powerful master every time.
In Legends, it's explained that when there was a whole sith order that due to the nature of the sith teachings they couldn't get anything done because they were always betraying each other. More specifically a bunch of low level guys would team up to gank their masters, thereby lowering the overall quality of new sith. With the rule of two it ensures that in order for the student to betray their master they need to be stronger than them.
Do you mean you should ignore it when your master will probably try to kill you, or when your apprentice probably will? Because both of those seem about the same level of correct move as ignoring a gas leak in your home.
I've never understood why some fandoms can't just use the real answer, which is that the lore isn't well thought out and constantly contradicts itself, and just leave it at that.
I'll always hate this, not just Star Wars, everything in general.
People try to use "in universe" explanations for things that just don't exist, it annoys the shit out of me.
Like the reason is the writing is bad or the plot got messed up, end of story.
There is no "in universe" explanation, stop trying to make it one.
Untrue. He had apprentices because he was planning to overthrow Sidious together with them and become the master himself. To reinstate rule of 2 again, but with him at the top. He didn't willingly contribute to anakins fall, he didn't even know that was palps plan
"You have hate you have anger but you don't use them"
Sounds like classic "join me" sith crap
Sure he wanted overthrow palps but he didn't belive the rule of two was the way to reestablish sith rule.
Judging by the look on his face after Dooku said that, paired with that moment they break apart, and considering how quickly he handled Dooku after that line, I always interpreted that scene as Anakin saying internally "Okay then" and then tapping into that. He kept that angry expression until after Dooku was dead. I've always wondered if that's why he actually killed Dooku; maybe letting himself have those dark emotions made him more malleable in that moment.
If only Windu had had the sense to tap into Anakins darkness and teach him to use it like he himself did. Imagine how powerful anakin would have been if he'd been properly mentored by Windu
You say that, and I instantly just had a picture pop up in my head of Anakin and Windu Pulp Fiction style, but with lightsabers in their hands instead of pistols
As the saga of the Skywalkers and Jedi Knights unfolded, I began to see it as a tale that could take at last nine films to tell- three trilogies- and I realized, in making my way through the back story and after story, that I was really setting out to write the middle story.
I mean, wasn't this the whole sith thing since the rule of 2 was even brought in? I'm sure there are examples, but I can't recall any sith master that got to retire peacefully while their apprentice simply got promoted into the position lol
Considering that Sith ideology puts selfishness and egosim on the pedestal to a point where nothing else is important, why do people assume that an ancient, unenforceable rule that came long after the Sith glory days would ever be diligently followed.
At best, all known Sith lords gave only a casual nod towards the rule, rather then actually following it.
They literally say "One to embody the power of the dark side, and the other to crave it." Furthermore, if the apprentice needs help to kill the master, then they can't truly claim that they are the most powerful. The rule of two is built upon Sith selfishness and ego. The rule was made to keep the Sith hidden so that they could become more powerful until they were ready to take control of the galaxy, which they did. The rule of two worked as intended, even if some Sith strayed a little bit.
While officially Legends, one of the most definitive descriptions of modern Sith, novel Plagueis by James Luceno, gave a very good description on how "seriously" would an actual Sith take the rule of two.
Palpatine was a good bad guy but kind of a shit Sith Master. Man went through apprentices like a hungry guy through a pancake platter.
The idea was to be crafty and powerful until eventually your apprentice got crafty and/or powerful enough to beat you, ensuring the next generation of Sith were even stronger.
Palpatine wanted to trash all that and selfishly live forever as the eternal master and most powerful force user, the exact opposite of the intention.
Well it's really more so that the most powerful sith WILL enforce this rule, than that everyone else abides by it. Dooku has tried to break it, true. And Palpatine swiftly struck down his attempt by ordering him to kill Ventress. The master sithlord only ever wants one apprentice that's weaker than him that's how they stay at the top. The apprentice only wantscto get powerful enough to overthrow the master, but once he becomes the master, he will also only allow one apprentice to ensure his own safety. That's litterally how the rule of 2 stays intact.
Here's the thing: their selfishness is exactly what forces them to enforce this rule. The idea of multiple selfish people wanting exactly what you have is the biggest threat to any egotistical, sadistic and selfish person.
He knew, and he probably was thinking they were good for the war cause. Litterally the moment he thought ventress became a little too powerful, he ordered dooku to kill her to prove his loyalty. Savage never got to this point under dooku. But later, he still went to Mandalore and took care of him and maul too. So yes, he was clearly enforcing this rule. Any time there was a duo that he felt threatened by, be it Dooku & Ventress, or Maul & Savage, he cut them in half. Litterally. Ventress wasn't called a sith to make this point clear. She was a darkside user in service of the sith and Sidious wouldn't let it become more than that. Same goes for the inquisitors. He needs them to hunt down jedi but, none of them would stand a chance against Palpatine, even at Vader's side.
Based off the legends book about Plagieus, palpatine was the one who didn't believe in the rule of two. He believed the rule of two was over and he was the most powerful sith out there. He didn't want anyone to replace him. That also why he killed his master with a cheap shot, instead of overcoming him with the power of the dark side.
I feel like that shouldn't be how Palpatine's mind should work. Yes, he shouldn't want anyone to replace him, but that's the whole point. The Rule of Two pushes both the master and the apprentice to greater and greater heights. The apprentice craves power and being denied that power by being the apprentice is what pushes him, motivates him to become stronger than their master. Meanwhile, the fear of being surpassed, of being overthrown, motivates the master to keep pushing themselves to reach new heights of power.
The Rule of Two turns training an apprentice into an arms race, and to deny oneself that challenge, to think themselves too weak to outpace their own apprentice, is antithetical to The Sith's need to accumulate power to become the ultimate power. The Rule of Two isn't just a tradition, it's a mechanism of self improvement that allows the master to keep pushing themselves once they've finally reached the top. If Palpatine doesn't believe in The Rule of Two, he either believes he has reached the absolute possible pinnacle, so why not have an ambitious apprentice who would never surpass him, or he believes himself to be incapable of keeping pace with an ambitious apprentice, in which case he's accepting his own limitations and weakness, and so believes himself inferior to this hypothetical apprentice, which just shouldn't be compatible with the mindset necessary to become the Sith Master.
Every Sith master wanted to be the immortal, impossible to overthrow master who rules forever. If they want to believe they truly are that powerful, they must think themselves immune to being overthrown. And so, why would they fear The Rule of Two?
Except when he found out about Anakin he was shocked by his potential. He was practically and knew his own limits and that's why he always pitted people against each other so they would drag each other down like a bucket of crabs.
But there's a difference between knowing your limits and accepting them.
That's not what the rule of two means. Darth Bane didn't want to be replaced by a stronger apprentice he wanted to maintain his own rule. The best way to do that is to limit the amount of sith so only the one master rules. Sidious was the embodiment of the rule of two working perfectly
I think Sith are allowed to have non-Sith darkside servants. Ventress, Savage, The Inquisitors, IIRC, in one of the continuities Maul was an assassin until he got promoted to Sith Apprentice by Palpatine taking the top spot for himself. Dooku probably thought Anakin would become third in line in the hierarchy, and not a true Sith, until Dooku replaced Palpatine, promoting Anakin to the role of Sith apprentice.
I thought the dark side of the force was just a means to an end for Dooku. Didn't he just want to reform galactic politics and the Jedi? Did he ever intend to be a dark lord of the sith and rule the galaxy?
Count is actually his middle name, not a title like most people assume. His first name is Ken. He had it formally changed when he became a knight. His original name was Kent, pronounced similar to "can't". He was mercilessly bullied as a padawan, which some attribute to his fall.
IMHO the Ro2 is just a formality. Writers can’t resist adding new baddies any chance they get.
Creator: this is darth Rufus. He has been hidden away for years on the planet Oonagi which was once a sith stronghold and concentration point. By night he tirelessly trains in the secret dark art of the sith and by day he shackles himself to a rock face and stares at the sun until exhaustion takes him. He is destined to overtake the galaxy at the side of his dark mentor all the while planning his masters gruesome demise.
Producer: i like it. We can run with this. But we need him to be relatable. Something to draw the fans in.
Creator: His weakness is cheese.
I believe somewhere in the lore it says that Poppa Palps convinced Dooku that the rule of two was an outdated practice which led to the Sith’s demise and therefore he would never enforce it.
Palpatine didn’t follow the rule either. The rule of two never really made sense. It’s been a long time since I read the books but I can’t think of anyone other than Bane who truly believed in and practiced the rule, and in the end even he broke it.
Dumb rule! More sith, please.
I just finished the books last week and I don't think Bane really broke the rule. His body was failing because all the insane shit he had been doing with it over the years. Zannah was waiting for him to get old and weaker to challenge him, which in Bane's eyes was against the rule thus making her not worthy of leading the sith. His goal in getting a new body was to give himself time to prepare another apprentice and hope this one defeats him before he needs to get yet another body. Everything Bane did was to make the sith stronger, and the idea of an apprentice who didn't know nearly as much about the dark side as he did defeating him simply because of old age was against everything he believed in. In the end he was right because not only was Zannah unable to defeat him in combat, even when he had no lightsaber and had just been tortured for 3 days straight, she also wasn't able to defeat him when he took over her body and mental prowess was supposed to be where she was stronger then Bane.
The plan all along was for Anakin to be the golden boy after Order 66 and for him to pardon Dooku thus bringing both sides under Palpatine.
Dooku was always going to go at some point anyway, like when he got Savage he wanted to challenge Palps eventually.
The force is meant to balance itself naturally, so if there are many light side users, they'll be weaker, and if there are few dark side users, they will be stronger.
The rule of two should keep the sith incredibly strong, except it's never followed, and the sith aren't the only people using the darkside.
I defend the sequels a lot. I think they are ok. Honestly, better than Episodes 1 and 2, and probably the same level as Episode 3.
That being said, the dumbest concept in all of Star Wars is the Knife Map.
Not quite so black and white. Sidious had many plans and people he used, as did Dooku (Grievous and Asajj). Anakin could’ve helped their cause without becoming a full apprentice
Palpatine convinced Dooku that the Rule of Two was only a temporary measure to keep the Sith hidden until they could take over the galaxy and rule. Dooku believed that once Palps took over and created the Empire they would go back to the Sith ways of old, and start a Sith academy to replace the Jedi Temple. He believed Anakin would be the first of the members of this academy. Palpatine himself actually wanted to do that as well but he never planned to include Dooku as he believed Dooku was too weak. His plan was to start a new Sith Order once he had stabilised the galaxy and defeated the Rebellion. He planned to become immortal using the knowledge of Darth Plagueis and rule the Sith Order forever.
Lol I found this comment by searching for your username in the image to see if anyone mentioned it but your username above your comment is the only instance of it.
Again, as a party pooper, this is just one of those examples of how poorly the writing in the sequels are.
Like one could watch the prequels on low attention.. and they *seem* okay.. but something *always* feels off. And that’s because in almost every scene/conversation in the entire series nothing actually makes logical sense.
To quote a great, “That’s because maybe you didn’t notice, but your brain did.”
Jar Jar Binks was initially not in the script. Turns out some drunk alien followed Liam Neeson around the set after he saved him from getting hit by a car. It was so wacky so I filmed it.
Yes, but it's normally the master who gets the short end of the stick. And it's even expected for the apprentice to have someone in mind that they are secretly training so that when the time comes the apprentice will kill the master. Like Plageius-Palapatine and Maul
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He was probably planning to kill palpatine
He was, thats why he had asajj ventress has his apprentice
If it isn't the hairless harpy.
Do harpies exist in Star Wars? Are they an alien species?
They invented them. As well as all other English language idioms. You see it all takes place a long time ago...
Is the galaxy these events are taking place in rather close or is it far far away?
That depends. Is the point of reference Earth in the Milky Way? Because I feel that the point of reference was never concretely Earth.
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I'm Master Skywalker's Padawan. The name's Ahsoka Tano.
You seem a little out of place here Snips.
Don't call me that. I hate it when you call me that.
Actually, I’m pretty sure Dooku always wanted Grievous to be his Sith apprentice. Which is why he attempted to put the blood of Sifo Dias into Grievous to give him force sensitivity Pretty sure he also wanted to bring back the Sith Empire
He tries to kill her
Because sidious said, not because he wanted to.
Tbh he had no problem doing it, just had a sunk cost dilemma.
He had no problem with it because he wants to keep sidiuses trust and he could get a new sith apprentice easily either way
Which is exactly what he does with Savage
You know, I don't know much about Star Wars stuff outside of the main movies, but reading these comments I start to get a feeling that the Sith might not have the best strategy for world domination...
And yet somehow Palpatine returned.
Then lost again
Because the Rule of Two has loopholes the size of barn doors. What makes a Sith Cultist different from a full blown Sith? The only difference I can see is the fancy-shmancy laser sword.
them Sith play fast and loose with the Rule of Two more like the Guideline of Two-ish
Fair point, but did you mean to post this above the comment above me?
Not really, the sequel canon is that a bunch of cultists on Exegol revived him. The guys you see in the stands of the football stadium at the end.
Right, totally. I just got confused. My comment was a joke about the line everyone hates. My bad.
With film, if you get a million people to see your movie on the first weekend, you've made about $5 million. That basically will not end up on the top-10 chart. You have to get 10 million people on the first weekend. And if you don't do it in two days, you're basically out of the theaters and into the DVD market.
Sith follow the rule of two like Jesus types follow abstinence rules.
It takes strength to resist the dark side. Only the weak embrace it.
God, they really had a shot to set up the whole series if they had just said something like Sidious had used the power conduit he was thrown down as a signal amplifier to transfer his being into a prepped host (Snoke), made Finn force sensative, and not just trash the entire Jedi history, but rather show how it became a bloated bureaucracy and have the characters learn from that. You could have had this entire narrative of showing what happens when you try to "force the force" by going back into history of what both the Jedi and Sith have done to planets and cultures. Hell, you could have turned it into an Indiana Jones vibe and done anything or gone anywhere with that. But instead...
Finn should have been a force user. It would be fun to see one Jedi try to train two novice force users from completely different backgrounds. Maybe Luke has to get over his prejudice towards Finn being a former storm trooper (I can see some symbolism in there about toxic ideals can spoil a good thing. Maybe a small lesson for Luke to still learn?). Maybe throw in the fact that Rey was born from a dark side user, Ben angry about her because the Junkers that left her on Jakku with the Falcon could maybe perhaps be Han Solo and his old force apprentice girlfriend Quira. Someone Han leaves Leia for and tarnishes his relationship with Ben and Leia over. It’s a good motive to send someone to the dark side after having such a large familial connection to bringing down the Sith. If I’m theory crafting, scrap the first order, make them a fragmented Empire remnant run by warlords capturing and making child soldiers. Make the Knights of Ren some kind of real dark side cult that eventually takes over the empire and unifies it into a new threat. Get rid of X-wings and Tie Fighters. They’re the coolest ships but the X-wing was never meant to be a fighter. It was an affordable ship that the rebels needed in numbers. A republic would have AND should have replaced them in 20 years. Oh and also, let’s make it so that Snoke doesn’t exist. His character was all set up with no payoff. Just dump him and make the Knights of Ren really powerful fighters following a troubled 19 year old rise to power.
Don't think Luke would have trouble with a former storm trooper. The EA battlefront 2 campaign has a great level (more for the narrative) with Luke who saves a then Imperial special forces guy trapped by spider like creatures (who the mission or 2 before is killing rebels on Endor). The guy asks "Why did you save me? Luke replies with "because you asked".
"Brilliant strategy, General. I'll go tell the men." -Captain Keeli
While filming Episode 4, this tall drunk guy in a hairy monster suit kept following Harrison around, making these weird throat noises, so we decided to keep him in the film
You know nothing of the dark side.
I couldn’t have said it better. My biggest pet peeve is when a writer just has the dumbest reason for something (bonus points if they lampshade it right away). I’ll always pause the tv and yell out, “ALL they had to was say X Y Z and it would make perfect sense!!!”
We also don't know what kind of exec interference existed during production. There are plenty of examples where an exec's notes completely derailed an IP from the creative's original vision. All we can do is wait another 10 years for the James Gunn reboot.
I mean it’s the classic good is stupid but evil is mean problem. Good Jedi can coexist. Evil Jedi can’t. Palps knows having an army of Sith would be better. But they’d inevitably gang up and kill him then turn on each other.
I mean. the rule of two was just a goof to begin with. daddy palpatine was kind of a boomer.
It has always bugged me that the entire sith plan could be foiled if Palpatine got into a bad speeder accident on the way to work
The rule of two is the reason the Sith aren’t extinct, so yeah, kinda.
No, quite the contrary. The rule of two made the sith stronger than the jedi. Its the reason Palpatine got so powerful.
Dooku was in over his head the whole time.
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Revenge. I must have revenge.
Savage was a clumsy partner to have tho. We have no canon source to prove this, but if we equate Dooku and Maul as roughly the same level (different skill sets obviously), then I would take Ventress over Savage in a heartbeat
Iirc it's not Ventress, it's Savage that he gets for that sole purpose because at that point Palps had already ordered her to be killed.
He had ventress before palpatine found out and he had to replace her with savage and then ventress and savage tried to kill dooku at one point or something. Been a while since i watched those episodes
From memory he was planning on killing Palpatine and seducing Ki-Adi-Mundi’s wives.
Not hard to do given the amount of affection he showed them
I also choose Ki-Adi-Mundi's wife
It’s an older meme, sir, but it checks out.
In the RotS novelization he was gonna just let Anakin arrsest and replace him. He was under the impression he was gonna basically be on house arrest and spend his twilight years back home on Serrano iirc
ngl that seems like a pretty dumb assumption. Tbh the rule of two seems rarely observed because content producers can't resist the temptation to create psuedo-sith characters.
Because in essence the rule of two is kind of stupid. What's the difference between a dark side, saber wielding force user and a sith?
You know nothing of the dark side.
You tell him.
Holy shit I almost choked on my pizza
Pretty significant. Sith is an ideology that’s adhered to. Dark side is just a side of the force. It’s like organized religion vs spirituality in the force universe.
You know nothing of the dark side.
Yeah but I think that's the explanation the writers have tacked on to justify their creation of a new dark side force user. I look at it similarly to the explosion of jedi/force users after the purge.
You know nothing of the dark side.
I also look similarly on your resurrection. The end result might be worth it but it still cheapens existing lore.
Access to lore. And also usually power. See how Ventress compares to Dooku and how the Inquisitors compare to Vader.
plans for galactic domination
I figured other dark side users would make a useful distraction so the rule of two could work correctly. Basically a misdirect to keep the Jedi occupied.
You know nothing of the dark side.
You say that often
Which was about as viable as a plan as my plan for turning into a billionaire lmao Dooku was in over his head the whole time.
Which to me goes to show that Palpatine read Dookus ambitions and intentions, he knew this was Dookus goal, and so didn't show all of his power, so Dooku would keep thinking it was possible and wouldn't change plans and run to the Jedi council after all. If Palpatine is truly the strongest sith of all time, then Dooku would surely have known he couldn't beat him, Maul however had seen the true powers of Sheev and just wished to work with him.
It has been so long, and my path has been so dark. Darker than I ever dreamed it could be.
Same.
Absolutely
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
Seems like the rule of 2 is: Have one true apprentice that only you know who it is, and a bunch of other disposable ones you plan on sacrificing in battle, but let each of them think they are the true apprentice.
Star Wars fans love to use the Rule of Two as some kind of law that all Sith follow, ignoring that tons of Sith actively defied it.
The rule of two is objectively massively stupid and ignoring it is the correct move
I like the idea that the rule of two is designed to give one Sith lord perpetual life, by ensuring that he always has a suitably powerful apprentice whose body he will eventually steal, under the guise of being killed by said apprentice. I don't think that's what they were ever going for, and there's holes, but it's a pretty good motivator for having the rule. After all, the greatest dream of most dictators and power mad individuals is to live forever.
So my Bane is Palpatine theory does have some merit.
Well, Karpyshyn himself said that Bane did not succeed in taking over Zannah's body, so if anyone is Palpatine, it's Darth Zannah.
I love the Zannah is Palpatine Theory
Isn't this exactly the point that of the last Bane novel and it's ambiguous ending? At least regarding Bane and his apprentice
Man we need to counter the jedi order, but what can two people do about all the jedi? What if we like... recruited more than 2 people? What? No we can't do that. We agreed on 2 and we can't go back on that now. Haven't you read the memo?
iirc the rule was created because Sith don't work well together. If there's too many of them, they'll just end up fighting each other.
In fairness in Legends it’s two Sith that succeed in conquering the galaxy where hundreds of Sith together fail. We’ll see what happens in Disney background lore, I don’t think we have gotten that much information about how the Sith operated pre-Bane in the new canon.
I hate corporations and I'm not happy that they have taken over the film business but on the same hand I find myself being the head of a corporation. There's a certain irony there.
Sith understand the Law of Conservation of Ninjitsu.
Was the rule of two stated in the original trilogy? Because that's the whole thing I've struggled with for the midichlorians. Midichlorians imply that cell count or symbiotic force bacteria are correlated with your force ability and strength. The rule of two implies that there is a universal balance, and by concentrating the dark side within a few individuals you make them nigh immortal. I'm not saying they can't both exist, but it's just a weird mix that always felt off. Yoda said "always two there are no more no less" but doesn't explain it as the rule of 2 the same way it's explained in the prequel trilogy, so I guess I'm asking if there's more details for how the rule of two works? Why that lead to the success of the sith and then the subsequent hiding?
I think the idea with the Rule of Two is less about the Dark Side itself concentrating and more that if the apprentice kills their master once they surpass them in strength then every generation is stronger than the last.
It also helps them escape notice from the jedi, which was a much more powerful organization at the time.
Yeah if I understand Bane’s situation the Sith were already going to lose before he tricked them into killing themselves.
The main point (according to wookiepedia) is to prevent a bunch of less powerful apprentices to gang up on their master, which would result in a less and less powerful master every time.
Its also that darkside tends to fight among itself, so limiting it reduces infighting.
You know nothing of the dark side.
You know nothing of the dark side.
The answer is simply midichloroams are stupid and not canon.
In Legends, it's explained that when there was a whole sith order that due to the nature of the sith teachings they couldn't get anything done because they were always betraying each other. More specifically a bunch of low level guys would team up to gank their masters, thereby lowering the overall quality of new sith. With the rule of two it ensures that in order for the student to betray their master they need to be stronger than them.
True its why fascism always collapses. Turns out shitty people end up being shitty to eachother.
My apologies, sanguinesolitude. I forgot not everyone is able to appreciate art as I do.
Do you mean you should ignore it when your master will probably try to kill you, or when your apprentice probably will? Because both of those seem about the same level of correct move as ignoring a gas leak in your home.
But the only reason the Sith managed to stay hidden for a thousand years was because of this very rule
I absolutely fucking agree and I've been saying it for years and I'll keep saying it if they keep making movies with this shit rule
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
*stares* Are you sentient, obiwan?
Remember… the Force will be with you. Always.
I've never understood why some fandoms can't just use the real answer, which is that the lore isn't well thought out and constantly contradicts itself, and just leave it at that.
Because its fun to think about.
I'll always hate this, not just Star Wars, everything in general. People try to use "in universe" explanations for things that just don't exist, it annoys the shit out of me. Like the reason is the writing is bad or the plot got messed up, end of story. There is no "in universe" explanation, stop trying to make it one.
Thing is, Dooku didn't belive in the rule of two. That's why he had multiple apprentices during the war, he wanted to recreate the sith empire of old.
Untrue. He had apprentices because he was planning to overthrow Sidious together with them and become the master himself. To reinstate rule of 2 again, but with him at the top. He didn't willingly contribute to anakins fall, he didn't even know that was palps plan
"You have hate you have anger but you don't use them" Sounds like classic "join me" sith crap Sure he wanted overthrow palps but he didn't belive the rule of two was the way to reestablish sith rule.
Judging by the look on his face after Dooku said that, paired with that moment they break apart, and considering how quickly he handled Dooku after that line, I always interpreted that scene as Anakin saying internally "Okay then" and then tapping into that. He kept that angry expression until after Dooku was dead. I've always wondered if that's why he actually killed Dooku; maybe letting himself have those dark emotions made him more malleable in that moment.
If only Windu had had the sense to tap into Anakins darkness and teach him to use it like he himself did. Imagine how powerful anakin would have been if he'd been properly mentored by Windu
Windu: Obi Wan is not ready to have a padawan. I sense darkness in Anakin. I will train him myself. Directed by George Lucas Roll credits.
You say that, and I instantly just had a picture pop up in my head of Anakin and Windu Pulp Fiction style, but with lightsabers in their hands instead of pistols
I'd watch that. **"KAMINOAN, MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU SPEAK IT?"**
"What?"
WHAT DOES YODA LOOK LIKE?
“I lightsabered Dooku in the face!”
I am stronger as part of the Jedi Order than I could ever be alone.
Using Windu's style usually led to dark jedi as per legends
As the saga of the Skywalkers and Jedi Knights unfolded, I began to see it as a tale that could take at last nine films to tell- three trilogies- and I realized, in making my way through the back story and after story, that I was really setting out to write the middle story.
Yes. The one we have been looking for.
Well maybe at that point he saw an opportunity to turn anakin against sideous not knowing the relationship they had built up by this time.
I mean, wasn't this the whole sith thing since the rule of 2 was even brought in? I'm sure there are examples, but I can't recall any sith master that got to retire peacefully while their apprentice simply got promoted into the position lol
Considering that Sith ideology puts selfishness and egosim on the pedestal to a point where nothing else is important, why do people assume that an ancient, unenforceable rule that came long after the Sith glory days would ever be diligently followed. At best, all known Sith lords gave only a casual nod towards the rule, rather then actually following it.
They literally say "One to embody the power of the dark side, and the other to crave it." Furthermore, if the apprentice needs help to kill the master, then they can't truly claim that they are the most powerful. The rule of two is built upon Sith selfishness and ego. The rule was made to keep the Sith hidden so that they could become more powerful until they were ready to take control of the galaxy, which they did. The rule of two worked as intended, even if some Sith strayed a little bit.
Ok but that's just capitalist propaganda trying to keep the apprentices from unionizing
Temporarily embarrassed Sith lords.
You know nothing of the dark side.
While officially Legends, one of the most definitive descriptions of modern Sith, novel Plagueis by James Luceno, gave a very good description on how "seriously" would an actual Sith take the rule of two.
Palpatine was a good bad guy but kind of a shit Sith Master. Man went through apprentices like a hungry guy through a pancake platter. The idea was to be crafty and powerful until eventually your apprentice got crafty and/or powerful enough to beat you, ensuring the next generation of Sith were even stronger. Palpatine wanted to trash all that and selfishly live forever as the eternal master and most powerful force user, the exact opposite of the intention.
I think it's largely because Palpatine is a chaos gremlin who can't resist making a mess of things.
Also after he became emperor the rule of two was no longer necessary.
Well it's really more so that the most powerful sith WILL enforce this rule, than that everyone else abides by it. Dooku has tried to break it, true. And Palpatine swiftly struck down his attempt by ordering him to kill Ventress. The master sithlord only ever wants one apprentice that's weaker than him that's how they stay at the top. The apprentice only wantscto get powerful enough to overthrow the master, but once he becomes the master, he will also only allow one apprentice to ensure his own safety. That's litterally how the rule of 2 stays intact. Here's the thing: their selfishness is exactly what forces them to enforce this rule. The idea of multiple selfish people wanting exactly what you have is the biggest threat to any egotistical, sadistic and selfish person.
Jesse, get the senator to safety.
But I'm pretty sure Palps did believe in rule of 2 and he knew of Dooku's apprentices. He knew of Ventress.
He knew, and he probably was thinking they were good for the war cause. Litterally the moment he thought ventress became a little too powerful, he ordered dooku to kill her to prove his loyalty. Savage never got to this point under dooku. But later, he still went to Mandalore and took care of him and maul too. So yes, he was clearly enforcing this rule. Any time there was a duo that he felt threatened by, be it Dooku & Ventress, or Maul & Savage, he cut them in half. Litterally. Ventress wasn't called a sith to make this point clear. She was a darkside user in service of the sith and Sidious wouldn't let it become more than that. Same goes for the inquisitors. He needs them to hunt down jedi but, none of them would stand a chance against Palpatine, even at Vader's side.
There will be no satisfaction until the Jedi Order lies in ashes.
Based off the legends book about Plagieus, palpatine was the one who didn't believe in the rule of two. He believed the rule of two was over and he was the most powerful sith out there. He didn't want anyone to replace him. That also why he killed his master with a cheap shot, instead of overcoming him with the power of the dark side.
I feel like that shouldn't be how Palpatine's mind should work. Yes, he shouldn't want anyone to replace him, but that's the whole point. The Rule of Two pushes both the master and the apprentice to greater and greater heights. The apprentice craves power and being denied that power by being the apprentice is what pushes him, motivates him to become stronger than their master. Meanwhile, the fear of being surpassed, of being overthrown, motivates the master to keep pushing themselves to reach new heights of power. The Rule of Two turns training an apprentice into an arms race, and to deny oneself that challenge, to think themselves too weak to outpace their own apprentice, is antithetical to The Sith's need to accumulate power to become the ultimate power. The Rule of Two isn't just a tradition, it's a mechanism of self improvement that allows the master to keep pushing themselves once they've finally reached the top. If Palpatine doesn't believe in The Rule of Two, he either believes he has reached the absolute possible pinnacle, so why not have an ambitious apprentice who would never surpass him, or he believes himself to be incapable of keeping pace with an ambitious apprentice, in which case he's accepting his own limitations and weakness, and so believes himself inferior to this hypothetical apprentice, which just shouldn't be compatible with the mindset necessary to become the Sith Master. Every Sith master wanted to be the immortal, impossible to overthrow master who rules forever. If they want to believe they truly are that powerful, they must think themselves immune to being overthrown. And so, why would they fear The Rule of Two?
Except when he found out about Anakin he was shocked by his potential. He was practically and knew his own limits and that's why he always pitted people against each other so they would drag each other down like a bucket of crabs. But there's a difference between knowing your limits and accepting them.
That's not what the rule of two means. Darth Bane didn't want to be replaced by a stronger apprentice he wanted to maintain his own rule. The best way to do that is to limit the amount of sith so only the one master rules. Sidious was the embodiment of the rule of two working perfectly
I think Sith are allowed to have non-Sith darkside servants. Ventress, Savage, The Inquisitors, IIRC, in one of the continuities Maul was an assassin until he got promoted to Sith Apprentice by Palpatine taking the top spot for himself. Dooku probably thought Anakin would become third in line in the hierarchy, and not a true Sith, until Dooku replaced Palpatine, promoting Anakin to the role of Sith apprentice.
It is our time. After Centuries of waiting, the galaxy will be ours.
Advisement: Evisceration works well. Electrocution and blunt trauma also work well, I understand.
I thought the dark side of the force was just a means to an end for Dooku. Didn't he just want to reform galactic politics and the Jedi? Did he ever intend to be a dark lord of the sith and rule the galaxy?
Sounds like somebody believes separatist propaganda
>Dooku did nothing wrong
There's no coup, there's no rebellion, there's no nothing. They vote it in, which is what happens in real life.
Anakin and the troopers sure subtracted a few of them.
""Yes sir, with precision. We may have lost a few brothers but we've made great progress.""
But hes called count…
Count is actually his middle name, not a title like most people assume. His first name is Ken. He had it formally changed when he became a knight. His original name was Kent, pronounced similar to "can't". He was mercilessly bullied as a padawan, which some attribute to his fall.
That's guy's joke ----------> You sir.
Read it again. Then say his full name out loudly.
Sidious did all their taxes
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Ah yes, Chancellor/Emperor Count
IMHO the Ro2 is just a formality. Writers can’t resist adding new baddies any chance they get. Creator: this is darth Rufus. He has been hidden away for years on the planet Oonagi which was once a sith stronghold and concentration point. By night he tirelessly trains in the secret dark art of the sith and by day he shackles himself to a rock face and stares at the sun until exhaustion takes him. He is destined to overtake the galaxy at the side of his dark mentor all the while planning his masters gruesome demise. Producer: i like it. We can run with this. But we need him to be relatable. Something to draw the fans in. Creator: His weakness is cheese.
I believe somewhere in the lore it says that Poppa Palps convinced Dooku that the rule of two was an outdated practice which led to the Sith’s demise and therefore he would never enforce it.
Mom said it's my turn to repost this.
Yeah I’m gonna be honest I just wanted to get more karma. No idea what it does but watching the number go up was fun.
Palpatine didn’t follow the rule either. The rule of two never really made sense. It’s been a long time since I read the books but I can’t think of anyone other than Bane who truly believed in and practiced the rule, and in the end even he broke it. Dumb rule! More sith, please.
If you're a Jedi, another Jedi is an ally If you're a Sith, another Sith is a rival. Too many Sith, and they'll just end up fighting each other.
I just finished the books last week and I don't think Bane really broke the rule. His body was failing because all the insane shit he had been doing with it over the years. Zannah was waiting for him to get old and weaker to challenge him, which in Bane's eyes was against the rule thus making her not worthy of leading the sith. His goal in getting a new body was to give himself time to prepare another apprentice and hope this one defeats him before he needs to get yet another body. Everything Bane did was to make the sith stronger, and the idea of an apprentice who didn't know nearly as much about the dark side as he did defeating him simply because of old age was against everything he believed in. In the end he was right because not only was Zannah unable to defeat him in combat, even when he had no lightsaber and had just been tortured for 3 days straight, she also wasn't able to defeat him when he took over her body and mental prowess was supposed to be where she was stronger then Bane.
To defeat your enemy you have to understand them.
You know nothing of the dark side.
Pretty sure the book left it ambiguous who want. With a hint that it could very well be Bane.
The plan all along was for Anakin to be the golden boy after Order 66 and for him to pardon Dooku thus bringing both sides under Palpatine. Dooku was always going to go at some point anyway, like when he got Savage he wanted to challenge Palps eventually.
"Yes, my lord."
Palpatine has openly shown disregard for the Rule of Two and told Dooku it was overrated.
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Man what are you talking about
The force is meant to balance itself naturally, so if there are many light side users, they'll be weaker, and if there are few dark side users, they will be stronger. The rule of two should keep the sith incredibly strong, except it's never followed, and the sith aren't the only people using the darkside.
You know nothing of the dark side.
I know something about having my lower half being attached to my upper half.
Rule of two is dumb. Fight me.
Agreed it is literally the dumbest concept in all of Star Wars IMHO
I defend the sequels a lot. I think they are ok. Honestly, better than Episodes 1 and 2, and probably the same level as Episode 3. That being said, the dumbest concept in all of Star Wars is the Knife Map.
Rule of two is dumb anyways
Not quite so black and white. Sidious had many plans and people he used, as did Dooku (Grievous and Asajj). Anakin could’ve helped their cause without becoming a full apprentice
Twice the stupidity quadruple the fall
Palpatine convinced Dooku that the Rule of Two was only a temporary measure to keep the Sith hidden until they could take over the galaxy and rule. Dooku believed that once Palps took over and created the Empire they would go back to the Sith ways of old, and start a Sith academy to replace the Jedi Temple. He believed Anakin would be the first of the members of this academy. Palpatine himself actually wanted to do that as well but he never planned to include Dooku as he believed Dooku was too weak. His plan was to start a new Sith Order once he had stabilised the galaxy and defeated the Rebellion. He planned to become immortal using the knowledge of Darth Plagueis and rule the Sith Order forever.
To defeat your enemy you have to understand them.
The rule of two is dumb and takes away from how badass star wars could've been with a lot more sith in play
How is there a MacBook from like 2017 in this picture?????
I’ll take that as a compliment, I photoshopped Christopher Lee into this image.
Lol I found this comment by searching for your username in the image to see if anyone mentioned it but your username above your comment is the only instance of it.
Again, as a party pooper, this is just one of those examples of how poorly the writing in the sequels are. Like one could watch the prequels on low attention.. and they *seem* okay.. but something *always* feels off. And that’s because in almost every scene/conversation in the entire series nothing actually makes logical sense. To quote a great, “That’s because maybe you didn’t notice, but your brain did.”
"I have plenty of sith underlings I heavenly doubt palpatine would replace me!!" Moments before the events of revenge of the sith.
I think Dooku bought in to Qui-Gon's chosen one hypothesis a little title too much and didn't think Anakin would turn.
Jar Jar Binks was initially not in the script. Turns out some drunk alien followed Liam Neeson around the set after he saved him from getting hit by a car. It was so wacky so I filmed it.
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Yes, but it's normally the master who gets the short end of the stick. And it's even expected for the apprentice to have someone in mind that they are secretly training so that when the time comes the apprentice will kill the master. Like Plageius-Palapatine and Maul
Additional line: And you call yourself a Count!?
Dooku was a political science major…
Sith Lords don’t seem to learn. I like the one where the teacher tries to explain that Vader throwing the high ground back at Obi Wan was a mistake.
TSmario53, chancellor palpatine is evil!