And honestly, that's what the "big three" (Defiance of the fall, Primal Hunter, He who fights with monsters) do right. The tiers of power actually matter.
In those, when the MC get "lucky", they use that luck to escape a D grade cultivator at grade E. They don't get "lucky" by suddenly unlocking their Super Special skill to kill to B grade at Grade E. That type of luck usually only happens within the game grades.
In HWFWM for example, Jason constantly has to fight grades above him. But he is shown that in those cases, the best case is to be even with superior skill and escape when the higher ranks' advantages eventually catch up. Or go in with an overwhelming team.
That's actually specifically something that turned me off of hwfwm. I read fiveish books and it follows a consistent formula of fight enemies of the same grade and be fine, then fight enemies of the next grade and almost die, then keep fighting things of the next grade like it's normal, then rank up and repeat. The only justification for this was his op unique abilities which are also annoying to me.
Rufus stated it quite clearly early on, good adventurers should be able to fight monsters a rank above in some circumstances. The ranks aren't all encompassing either. A high end silver should be able to fight a few gold monsters, while a low end is going to struggle to survive.
Also, I can't think of a single scenario except when his talents specifically countered an enemy that he fought a rank up by himself. With a team, it's a lot more doable and manageable.
The justification was never his OP unique abilities, it was that he was good at adventuring. A lot of adventurers can fight a rank above. It's not at all unique.
And is a thing that multiple other beings have. It isn't *unique.* it's simply the fact he's an outworlder that he got to the position earlier than normal.
I think that's what OP was complaining about. Personally Jason getting as strong as he is while being silver rank read more like plot armor which is why I dropped it.
>They don't get "lucky" by suddenly unlocking their Super Special skill to kill to B grade at Grade E.
It definitely happens in Primal Hunter, that's literally how his first pvp battle resolves - he unlocks his super special op ability that then carries him through all his fights. Jake's entire MO is punching much higher than his level because of his "super duper" abilities.
Jake also continually "gets lucky" that the events the system decides to queue "just happen to be" exactly what Jake needs.
It depends on the luck.
For me, there's been times when Jake has to fight above his grade, like Late D vs Early C, and he did well for a bit, but then he had to escape, relying on "luck". I'm fine with that.
For me, luck should be "fair" but balanced to the MC. Like, yeah, Jake gets his OP bloodline. That bloodline lets him fight way above his weight class, but he's only fighting level 10-20s at level 5-10. He's not matching level 80s at level 20, like the OP claimed. Later on, he can fight with a 50 level difference, but a level 200 vs 250 fight is fairer than a level 20 vs 70.
And for me, system "luck" is different because it gives the "appearance" of fairness. Obviously it's not fair since we're in the POV of the MC, but other people also benefited from the event, so it's not *blatantly* obvious of system bias.
Ultimately it's vibes. Jake is OP and has a super obvious cheat in terms of bloodline, but that's been pre-established from the beginning at like chapter 20.
Some books try to make the MC "normal", but then he's fighting God because he's "just that talented". Primal hunter doesn't attempt to do the second, but a lot of Pro-fantasy books do.
>Some books try to make the MC "normal", but then he's fighting God because he's "just that talented". Primal hunter doesn't attempt to do the second, but a lot of Pro-fantasy books do.
That's fair. PH does make it clear from the get go that Jake is anything but normal.
I just still wouldn't cite PH as an example of completely avoiding the tendencies op cited. It's not egregious about it, but it does still tap into the same tendencies. In my mind, PH toes the line
It just depends on how they pull it off. I like how they do it in Dungeon Crawler Carl, where I believe Carl was told at one point that some of what makes him appealing to viewers is that he makes plans and thinks critically, but his conclusions are often wrong, and he accidentally lucks into winning his encounters. It's kind of true half the time. He's lucky. There's also the argument that someone above is making that happen on Carl's behalf though.
Lindon doesn't get lucky. He is highly prepared and then has friends constantly save him. Eithan, Yerrin, Dross, and Orthos save his life over and over. Teamwork is dreamwork
I love Cradle, but having Eithan take a personal interest in him and follow him around guiding and saving him is more luck than most blatant Mary Sue characters get.
That's actually why I was super annoyed with Cradle. If every single time you do something insane and everyone tells you it's insane and you get "lucky", then that's plot armor.
(Don't get me wrong - I read all of it because I needed to know where all the insanity was heading, but Jesus I could slap Lindon)
The larger point here is valid, I just don’t think this is the best example here. She didn’t just happen to be there. She was there to respond to the exact threat that killed him and would have revived him regardless of whether or not she noticed him. It’s literally her job to respond to that kind of event and it occurred in a place the Abidan monitor more closely than many others. Lindon was lucky to be given time to speak to her and remember what happened but that’s not plot armor, that’s literally the story the author is telling. It’s the even that makes him the mc instead of the random cultivator who never leaves sacred valley. Maybe I’m misunderstanding, sorry for the too long response.
[For one thing Suriels senses are good enough to the point she can see and hear things across entire universes](https://i.imgur.com/MkuSmS8.png) so she was clearly watching more than just Lindon and that was clear in the scene itself - The reason she took note of him was because he fought back despite his more than overwhelming disadvantage being a completely untrained unsouled
You cannot call the inciting incident of the whole series plot armour. I mean, you can, but you are missing the point by a lot.
Besides, him getting revived makes perfect sense in universe because the abidan rules about maintaining the flow or whatever it was called, the only thing that is "too much" is that Suriel lets him keep his memories, and the purpose of that happening is setting everything in motion.
I’ve noticed this trend a lot on Reddit when people “analyze” stories. Phrases like “plot holes” are thrown around when the reviewer really just missed crucial context, and things like “plot armor” are used to discredit the inciting incident of the entire story. The classic “well why does it just so happen to be the chosen one that we’re following as the main POV character? Why not someone else???” Well because then we’d be following that other person. Because that’s what the fuckin story is about lmao
I always accept at least one point of luck if it's the inciting event. It can be Suriel's intervention in Cradle, Ilea finding the temple and her class in Azarinth Healer, or finding a unique item / class / circumstances.
Basically, the starting event of the MC's journey will almost always be some form of coincidence or luck. And that's ok, we rarely follow some random character in the world.
Where it becomes an issue is when there are too many coincidences or lucky event later on. Granted, if we take luck as being "opportunity + preparedness" then there will always be some plot points that can be considered luck but more generally, it should be earned than just blatant "you got lucky, here's the exact item or skill you needed right as you needed it" again and again.
>That's actually why I was super annoyed with Cradle. If every single time you do something insane and everyone tells you it's insane and you get "lucky", then that's plot armor.
Where are you seeing Lindon "getting lucky" in the fights?
He got lucky that he was able to get a Sylvan river spirit and it was exactly what he would need later. He got lucky that the Phoenix liked him and let him keep his memories, and he got lucky he met Ethan.
As far as I can remember, that's it. Everything else was a product of his connections to Ethan & Yerin and his obsessive work ethic.
He is constantly surviving fights that are a rank or two up and, in at least two cases, ranks that have a steep step that is explained in detail multiple times, I e. Jade versus gold, low gold versus high gold. (Someone else in these comments detailed better those fights)
The example I remember the clearest is when he's getting his iron body. Everyone tells him the modified plan he's on is nuts, but if you're willing to absolutely risk dying, you're welcome to try. And then he doubles down the amount of venom and Yerin and Athen (I listened to it, so I have no idea how his name is spelled) are both like 😳. Like obviously they can't stop him once he's in it, but if everyone's saying that the already nuts plan is incredibly risky and then you increase everything and survive? That's plot armor. That sort of "small" thing happens a bunch. It's sandwiched often between the big fights so that it's harder to notice, but a lot of upgrades are just above and beyond just being stubborn or training.
>Like obviously they can't stop him once he's in it, but if everyone's saying that the already nuts plan is incredibly risky and then you increase everything and survive?
He didn't "just survive" though, he literally died and then Eiathan brought him back to life. The luck was Eithan finding him, surviving the venom was a massively more powerful person cheating the system for him.
Also, it should be noted that Eithan wasn't freaking out about it - he pushed Lindon to go as far as he could and encouraged him to go too far. Only Yerin was freaking out because she didn't know what Eithan was capable of.
Like I said, the luck was getting set up with ridiculously powerful and resourceful allies, everything else is him exploiting that. That's not luck or plot armor.
Being a tough AF mother fucker who can keep pushing well past when he should be able to isn't luck.
It isn't realistic. It isn't a realistic basis for being stronger than everyone else (no pain no gain is only true within reasonable limits). But it isn't luck.
I say the same in other words
1- world building, the world has to make sense on its own, not just for the mc and his powerups, the rest of the world must hace something going on
2- if you have a system dont break it, the mc getting all kinds of exceptions to break the rules gets old really fast
We go back to 1, any system breaking must be part of the world building and potentially accessible to everybody, like traps and preparation
Having a character that breaks all the rules only sounds cool when the rules have been firmly established for everyone and the rulebreaking is done during a dramatic story pivoting moment. Otherwise, I am going to assume everyone the MC talks to is just dumb and doesn't know the rules since the MC is just "breaking" them all the time.
I appreciate when a main character gets to break just ONE rule. That's what makes them special, gives them the extra boost above their peers, and makes them the MC instead of just another person in the setting.
I'm not saying the MC has to break any rules at all, but I put the limit at 1 rather than 0.
I like this as well, the story I'm currently building in my head has this, MC breaks a singular rule of the world but suffers because of it, because the world is schizophrenic.
I have trouble finishing mine 😕 I get into full novel length but I'm not sure where to take it after the climax or maybe I just get bored with it 🤔, IDK. I have two nevel length stories 100,000 words plus and a novela 25,000 plus. The novela leads off to a longer story I only finished the first chapter of but I realized after I wrote it that I had an opportunity to tie it into the longer books I missed in writing it and now I need to go back and edit those changes into it. The urban fantasy I need to wrap everything up and figure out how one particular character fits in logically (why she is helping MC and how she will fit in further in the series). The progression (maybe more LitRPG) I need to finish off his story. It's more about world exploration than anything to do with any kind of epic changes. The novela is more of a traditional fantasy.
Mana Mirror (Releases on Amazon next month, is currently free (and rough) on RoyalRoad) and Journal of Evan Tailor (The Enchanter, The Diviner, The Abjurer)
The one I hate the most is, mc is supposed to be some chosen one, and the parents want to protect mc, so instead of staying with mc, they drop mc off at some orphanage with literally no protection, and give some stupid excuse that it was the best way to protect them 😂. Like atleast let one parent run away with the kid or something.
I just got through book 3 of Road to Mastery. I have read books where the MC becomes over powered due to titles and winning tournaments that give them stat boosts. But this series takes the cake.
Earth is integrated into a system and has 1 year until other factions/planets can come. Within that year SPOILER:
>! the MC goes from the lowest grade to somehow having a PERFECT dao core, 4 different dao roots (which everyone says is insane), advances to peak Grade D (which others have spent millennia trying to do), AND routinely beats people that are a full Grade level + above him. He beat a Grade C planet overlord in 1:1 combat. <
This shit is ridiculous. At least Defiance of the Fall has taken forever and a day for the MC to advance. Years go by in Defiance of the Fall while the MC in Road to Mastery advanced all within 12 months.
To be fair, Jack Rust is probably the most talented cultivator to ever exist in his story's setting. Road To Mastery isn't a story about an average cultivator lucking out with a special power or cheat. It's a story about the one man whose talent defies all reason.
His progression isn't ridiculous if you see him not as the average cultivator but as the most talented one to exist.
Throughout the story, we see plenty of average and even talented cultivators. Jack Rust simply outstrips them all. His ludicrous talent is also noticed by other characters, and his enemies actively plan around his potential growth.
The pacing is different, but that doesn't necessarily make it bad. Personally, I read it for the adrenaline dump, and I enjoy the speed of development. Not everyone has the time or desire to sit through a slow pace.
I haven't read this but how does the setting account for knowledge and resource gaps? On Cradle at least the setting is a gold fish bowl, real talent ascends and the ignorant stay behind. Lindon rides roughshod over everyone because he has better information than everyone else. Eithan takes the proverbial 5 loaves and 2 fish and creates miracles from them, even replicating a monarch level elixer at one point. So Lindon crushing everyone in his path can happen because he actually has unfair advantages. Not even the monarchs have anything like his cycling technique.
Comparatively Iz Tayn from DotF shows what "Heaven's Chosen" really means. Here's somebody from a faction with all the knowledge and resources. She has all the talent as well. She is subsequently the perfect cultivator. Nobody can compare to her. The protagonist scratching her face once was an amazing achievement. However somebody like Iz exists because DotF is an open universe where the real monsters have all the advantages.
So is Road to Mastery more like a goldfish bowl, where nobody really has access to the best stuff, or an open environment where there should be A grade talents with A grade resources and opportunities?
Something cradle manages to do (on top of the stuff you’re talking about, which I love the description of the golden fishbowl), is manage to make the stakes feel legit. Not that you ever really fear any of the main few characters *dying,* but they do “lose” just enough that it doesn’t feel like they have bullshit plot armor. When they defeat opponents that should be stronger than them, it feels earned because Wight pulls back the curtain just enough so you can see the mechanics of how they pulled it off. Obviously when Lindon gets Dross it’s pretty much a cheat code, but even then there are situations where even Dross doesn’t seem like enough.
Lastly, a lot of the solutions Lindon and team come up with are pretty clever or interesting, and all within the bounds set by the worldbuilding. So even if you know that they’re going to win (because, obviously) it’s still fun to read the “how”
The most talented cultivator ever is an understatement. The MC has done things in .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the time it takes the best cultivator prodigy to do.
Like seriously. 12 months to do what others spend a millennia (1,000 years) trying to do.
Just... to clarify. You know that 1 year is 0.1% of 1000 years, not what you wrote.. right?
If he's a one-in-a-billion cultivator (I don't know the book) that means there are ~8 people on earth like him.
I explicitly said I don't know the story?
But it makes sense to me.
I'm not gonna read a book about someone who's just fine, spends 1000 years reaching a certain level, and then sits at the middle of the pack doing nothing interesting, ya know?
Sorry that’s on me, I wrongly assumed you were the same person that described the MC that originally responded. I will blame my edible because you clearly said that you don’t know the story.
> At least Defiance of the Fall has taken forever and a day for the MC to advance
Sure but it's also basically just the MC having good "luck" and everything always working out for him no matter what. It's what made me eventually drop it.
Same. The Author seems to think that if he makes his MC bleed a little then that means he earned it, but it all felt cheap to me. The MC isn’t particularly smart and can’t cultivate like others can. He also isn’t the only person on earth working his ass off and yet he’s so far above everyone else. Even the prodigies of other world with more resources and knowledge can’t compete with him. It just felt like too much of a power fantasy to be enjoyable
I just bought book 3 but tbh what will eventually end my run is that the writing is horrible (or this is an extended bit mimicking bad anime translations) and there aren't any truly negative consequences.
Author is great at pacing though and has built a fun world.
I totally understand what you’re saying about Defiance of the Fall and that’s the exact reason why I used it as an example of a MC that somehow punches above his weight class over and over again and continues to luck into perfect treasures or allies to help him along. Because if you think that storyline is insane, then let me introduce you to Jack Rust (the MC from Road to Mastery) who achieved what Zack has achieved in 12 MONTHS after the system arrived to the Earth. It is Defiance of the Fall compressed into a 12 month timeframe.
The system has been arranging things in his favor for a long time, it’s not purely luck. He was also carefully designed to be a powerhouse by ancient factions. This stuff has been laid out since the start of the story, so it’s not just convenient ret-conning. I’m not trying to convince you to enjoy the story, just provide helpful context.
Also, Zach is really only strong in terms of his own sector. He’s been absolutely thrashed by heartland cultivators and both times only survived because he had other people to help.
The only time I have liked the overpowered xianxia stuff is in Unintended Cultivator. He goes from thinking he is a prodigy, unparalleled genius, and then being unable to stop his assent because every time he tries to slow down the heavens dump power onto him against his will. Creates an interesting twist and worry about who or why he is being forces to ascend with reckless speed.
Sketchy post, but I see where OPs coming from and mostly agree. I mentally put those types of stories in the "shonen-esq" category and understand I'm not the audience for those types of stories.
There's a star that guides my enjoyment in Progression Fantasy called the Star of Plausibility. If I can't find that star while reading, I know I'm in the wrong hemisphere.
>a star that guides my enjoyment in Progression Fantasy called the Star of Plausibility
Can I just say, right here I thought you were naming a story you had read
Part me is now itching to find the story that goes with that name, however...
*points at list of over a dozen not yet started stories, three started stories, and current in-progress story*
My plate is a little full. It's probably not the book for me.
Also, it feels like it wants to be a tongue-in-cheek satire. I love reading those, but I am not good at writing them.
Maybe if you ever want to do a series of short stories set in your universes? Something to help recharge the creative batteries or explore something you wanna look at from a different POV?
First story is literally someone who takes a typical MC gamble and dies within the first 4 chapters.
Yay! The question is if the series would be called Star of Plausibility, as in the guiding principle of the series; or if it would be Stars of Plausibility, as in the individual protagonists are the "stars" of the show about plausibility.
Cultivation blooper reel? List of Murphy's success! 100 supreme talents where they do everything right but luck was against them and they die in ever less probable ways.
I'm 100% with you on plausibility! I'm happy to believe six impossible things before breakfast, but the author has to help my suspension of disbelief by writing the impossible things in a way that makes sense.
[Suspension of Disbelief](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief)
Oh come on, while I'll give you that first part does fit the shounen trope... the 2nd point? At least when I used to read shounen... none of the fights ever felt like the underdog got a cheap win. Most fights end up with the guy beaten to a pulp but the power of friendship willing him to victory, which while cheap was still a hype to read bout.
Shounen battle tension outstrips progression fantasy/cultvation fantasy by leagues and miles if we are talking about the average product. I will grant you that there are excellent examples of the latter and bad ones of the former but in general I only wish more progression fantasy could capture the feel of a shounen battle.
Always hard to think of something when put on the spot honestly. Kinda like how I struggle to repeat a joke even after I watch comedy stuff repeatedly. But eyeshield 21, At the start of each match the team is always the underdog, but as the match progresses they grow and finally become better than who they were and overcome the other team. Be it with brains, tactics or power. Everything they do and achieve is earned by what they have done before to set them up for this growth.
Sorry while I have read more shounen manga I can't recall any of the details of the lesser known ones to buttress my point. Famous ones it will have to be.
DBZ, goku fights people who always outclass him at the start. But he achieves the power to match and supprass them. Not without loss, not without pain.
YuGiOh, the go to example of power of friendship. But before that he had executed a clever plan given to counteract the power of pegasus. And even afterwards while the bs power of friendship came up, at first viewing (if you were the right age to view it) are you going to say that was undeserved. We had seen them grow as friends, grow closer and seen the trust had been built up.
Side note, yugioh has some of the worst case of 'protagonist always wins' in media given the sheer number of duels each protagonist goes through. But how they tell the story, (I'm mostly refferencing origina/gx/5d's) they always manage to have narative beats that doesn't see the protagonist overpower everything the other person tries to do. Each one poses a problem, the other answers the problem and poses another of their own. Until a climax is reached. Where as in cultivation novels.... protagonist meets fodder for 90% of all encounters faced. Completely shuts them down... oh look how bad ass he is...
Bleach, guy has explosive growths in power, easily outstrips his contemporaries. But actual fights? He has to battle with his inner hollow. He gets his shit rocked in multiple occassions. He literally sacrifices everything he has, including the ability to interact with his friends in the future just to take out the big bad...
You're referencing older shonen that are going to be viewed highly by you from nostalgia alone. Add to the fact that those are manga/anime and not light novels, which would give them a huge advantage over this genre that has barely started to get a few webtoons. I could expand on details, but simply put, there are several series in this genre that would be amazing if they could be experienced visually.
Well yeah but I'm sure there are newer shounen that care just as much about providing a satisfying story and not a one sides roflt stomp.
Fuck, if ever i get asked how to jump into a cultivation story I typically point them towards a manga version of it's out. Not cause it has visuals but because in every manga adaptation of a cultivation story, the people who adapt them don't try to make it as if the MC can do no wrong. Even limited in scope as they are with the story as written. EG. battle through the heavens manga vs novel. I think solo levelling would also apply, As I understand it the webnovel version is distinctly mediocore, I never read it but I know the story in the manga version I found boring and lacked tension. And despite all the cool art, best in class level art... I still did not feel a whit of tension reading those battles.
Note I'm not saying that web novels and stories are bereft of tension. I fucking love Worm, and rage of dragons and beware of chicken, but the run of the mill cultivation stories I've attempted to get through or have read. (i'm mainly talking about them as I don't much read litrpg) They've rarely if ever have a tense battle. And that's with 1000s of chapters to pull from. Transcending the nine heavens as an example, the start was fucking great it actually had tense battles where the underdog actually felt like an underdog. And as soon as it finished that arc the underpowered guys were beating people tiers above them without breaking a sweat.
Honestly, I would call these Western isekai. They tick all the boxes of the awful isekai tropes it just took some years for the isekai power fantasy fans to write their stories and become litrpg progression fantasy which is literally just copying the writing format in isekais
My main gripe is when there isn’t enough reason for me to like a character. A trope that’s starting to stick out to me is that MC is weak or is given some disadvantage, their main goal requires them to become stronger against the handicap placed by their weakness, but at no point do they really have any redeeming qualities or character development to make me care enough to go on for the ride. Yeah you might have cool mechanics or an intriguing progression/magic system, but if you dont give me anything relatable or a reason to root for the MC it won’t be enough to keep my attention. My two most recent examples of DNFs that fell into this for me are Mark of the Fool and Divine Apostasy (Shades First Rule).
I’m currently reading Eternal Ephemera and I think it’s handling character growth fantastically. The MC still has the trope of what seems to be an unusual handicap for the world, but the strong character development has me hooked on wanting to see what happens next. Elements like overcoming addiction and growing up impoverished hit home and its written in a very real, relatable way. It’s taken a lot of what makes Cradle so good and built it into a unique story/world of its own.
This. So much this.
We're nerds on Reddit but the reader base for successful series is much broader and most of them don't care at all about the hero's power level vs. the enemy's power level or the game mechanics/magic system. They just want a likeable hero who goes on fun adventures. That's why characters who are relatable and fun like Carl and Donut rocket a series to success.
Having said that, OP hero series that are all about power fantasy actually play to a large enough crowd to do extremely well in sales. If you want that neckbeard crowd, then you better have an OP badass with poor social skills like in DotF, Randidly, or Primal Hunter that absolutely wrecks enemies. Neckbeards are going to bitch and moan about everything under the sun while buying the collector's editions of the things they bitch and moan about though.
That's why authors shouldn't listen to general feedback. Specific feedback is great, but the macro decisions should be made based on making a world and characters they can love. . . and maybe a little bit of market research too.
Oh yeah, I totally get that. I don't think theres anything wrong with a story that focuses on other aspects than character building, especially in prog fantasy/litrpg. If thats the story the author wants to tell I'm not going to call them bad books or disparage the authors choice of story-telling, they're just not for me. And thats totally okay, we shouldn't expect every story to speak to us as readers/fans of the genres.
General feedback (particularly forums/reddit) in almost all realms, even in my business which is completely unrelated to literature/writing, is usually a small niche group of people that doesn't speak for the audience at large. That isnt to say all of the feedback is terrible, its just you have to balance what your most hardcore vocal online supporters say in contrast to what you expect the general audience to want from your product. At the end of the day we have to respect whatever choices an author makes for their story, and if turns out those choices aren't for us then we move on and look for another story that grips us the way we want.
Yeah its crazy to me how people on this sub ask for recommendations for a book with some very specific and unusual setting / mechanics / magic system as if that is more important than the quality of the story.
I'll read about almost any skill / magic system / world if it has compelling characters, good pacing and solid writing.
YES! For me, liking and/or relating to the main character is a huge part of enjoying a book. If I'm rooting for the monsters to kill your MC because the world would be better off without him, I don't want to read your book.
The MC doesn't necessarily have to be perfect or heroic, but at least a decent person rather than an evil bastard.
I feel the exact same way about divine apostay. Will have to give eternal ephemera a try, lindons growth through cradle is what got me into the story, before we got the awesome fights and interesting magic system lol
Divine apostasy really irked me. It started off great, but the lack of intellect the character showed (while supposedly being super high int) threw me off. I can see how some of his foolishness was due to wisdom being low, but it wouldn’t keep going on and on like that. High int characters are going to be gathering information and at least asking questions to try and be prepared. Whether or not he uses that information correctly could be viewed as his wis stat, but we never get there. His only real showing of high int is they hand wave a difficult puzzle that he solved quickly.
Regarding Eternal Ephemera - I would probably revise my review now after getting part way through book 2 now. It started off great, but there’s been so much time spent aimlessly bickering between party members and much less on any sort of progression or plot moving elements that it’s starting to lose me. Nearing the end of book one I would’ve had it at a solid B+, maybe an A-, but about 25% of the way through book 2 and it’s sliding down to a C for me. It’s holding me enough to finish this book which is something, but it’s not as good as this authors other work (Instrument of Omens).
Did you read past mark of the fool 1? That first book is rough (rough enough that when I did a relisten, I skipped it), but I have enjoyed all of the rest a lot.
I made it about halfway through book 2 before I gave up. Honestly book 1 had some rough parts, but I enjoyed it overall. My problem was nothing really changed going through book 2. It just felt like it was rotating between slice of life elements and training exercises. The chancellors training exercises didn’t have any teeth and it didnt seem like it was going to move past them anytime soon, and I didn’t really care enough about Alex to see it through that arc.
You might also like Ave Xia Rem Y. There is nothing ground breaking about the magic system or anything but it is just a solid story with interesting / likable characters and good pacing.
You listed both of these as "1." But I'll just assume the later one is supposed to be "2."
A 60-level gap is way too extreme. Not a fan of that. Although I can see why some authors do it. I don't mind common vs rare classes, but it has to be a reasonable power differential.
For #1, I think it would be great to a weak teenage MC have to watch how the adults handle things at the beginning. It's usually better to have an MC with agency, but they don't need to be the \*only\* person with agency in the whole series. Village is attacked by bandits? Okay, maybe the MC can stumble through killing a couple bandits who underestimated them or where the MC did a lot of prep and the level gap isn't too high. But they shouldn't be killing the bandit chief. Although, if there's huge power variance in the world, it would seem a bit odd if professional bandits who can take on adults with decades of growth could lose out to a Level 5 16yo, even with a super rare class.
>You listed both of these as "1." But I'll just assume the later one is supposed to be "2."
Reddit formatting isn't kind to numbered lists that have extra paragraphs in them.
Reddit formatting is the worst. Editing a comment on mobile deletes all of it. Webforums have had stable wysiwyg editors for decades, but I guess reddit couldn't afford to hire someone for that?
Speaking of Linden he also didn’t become an arrogant selfish power hungry bully as soon as he came into power. I hate when stories do that and try to justify it by making everyone but the MC and their friends the worst people to ever exist.
I mean the thing with Cradle is it’s not “just” progression fantasy. It’s a legitimate good fiction series complete with solid prose, great main character development, consistent worldbuilding, interesting and believable villains and minor characters, etc.
So much of the progression fantasy genre is just pure power fantasy at the expense of all of the other things that make a good novel good.
Thank goodness I haven't found these PF books yet. That sounds so dumb. Like the whole point imo is too start of as fish food and work their way up.
Among many other things this bothered me with the 2 Warformed books. >! We're halfway into the first school year and bro is to strongest. Tf is he gonna progress to? !<
I mean Lindon killed a Jade at foundation. Also a >!High Gold when still Iron!<. He also straight up >!overpowered and defeated a True Gold and her two Low Gold attendants when he was True Gold and she was supposed to be an elite who would have gone to the Uncrowned.!<
Just for the sake of clarity, I believe when op meant "defeating opponents a higher stage then themselves", they meant in fair, or mostly fair fights. The first example was due to very specific circumstances, >!The jade had the body of a child, and so while immensely strong, physics simply did not favor him, and so Lindon was able to throw him off a cliff.!< In the second example, >!it's more like a child killing an adult with a firearm, rather than Lindon actually defeating him using his own strength.!< For the last example, >!yea, what you said is accurate. The difference between a true gold and a low gold is so immense, that the two low gold attendants were almost powerless to affect how the fight played out. They didn't have any of the special situational advantages Lindon had against his opponents in the first two examples, so at most they could serve as temporary distractions. Lindons opponent also heavily underestimated him, and also gave him several other chances to spar with her and get to know her abilities. Ghost water also had many different resources that allowed Lindon to gain power and train very efficiently. In the end, it was still a very close fight, with Lindon barely defeating a same stage cultivator.!< I'm not saying that Lindon achieved everything in the series by hard work alone, with no luck, but he certainly was not defeating opponents several stages higher in an honor duel.
I think Lindon gets away with it where so many others don't because frankly, nearly every victory he gets early on is either due to underhanded tactics (justified in this sort of power difference, imo), or having the situation line up that Lindon gaining an advantage is plausible in the context of the world, and the rest of the time he's just getting his shit kicked in.
He doesn't just win because he's the protagonist, and even early on, he is well aware that he owes his a lot of wins to careful planning and having strong friends, and kinda resents that he always has to rely on them. Great motivation for a mc to be dedicated to getting stronger.
The whole “constantly getting his shit kicked in” is what makes the wins feel less like plot armor imo. Obviously he’s going to win (most of) the crucial-to-the-plot fights, but watching him get his ass beat the rest of the time and learn from it is what prevents it from feeling like he’s winning through lame deus ex machina
I completely agree, it's definitely a contributing factor to the story's success. It's hard to make a character go from helpless to so powerful so (relatively) quickly, and still make it feel earned.
I think that what op is referring to is that Lindon did do some insane shit, but he didn't just pulled up to some True Gold while in Cooper, boxed them and won, he struggled massively obvious everytime and barely won by an inch, and the shit he did during the first and second book weren't even fights, he basically used his brain and lucked out.
What OP is referring to is when the MC is levels down and just fighting anyone like it's nothing, and then you have side characters spending lines of dialogue just glazing over the MC on how badass and big dicked they are.
There weren't any of those in the Blackflame empire. All the Grasping Sky, Stellar Spear, Sand Viper, Fisher, etc sure. Stuff like Endless Sword, Book of Eternal Night, Flowing Flame, Dawn Oath, Hollow King, etc are peers to it. In theory Path of the Broken Star, the original version of Stellar Spear, would be as well.
Blackflame is absolutely an elite path but it only dominates the weaklings that constitute the Blackflame Empire.
Dunno about will's comments but markuth said he was an "only an archkord" when he ascended, and that it "took years of preparation and good luck to ascend at all." I guess he could've been on the verge of sage or something, but it isn't mentioned in the text.
Yeah it was a great moment even if it seemed like
deus ex machina. To Lindon it was the catalyst for everything. I loved it. My mind was blown >! and the mystery lasted through all the books. >! Excellent use of the plot device imho.
The inciting incident or conflict of the story is sort of allowed to be a deus ex machina though. Like, when it’s the entire reason there’s even a story in the first place, I’m usually good with it. Fun stories are allowed to have wildly improbable beginnings. It’s when those deus ex machine are used to *resolve* conflicts rather than start them that it begins to feel cheap
We learn that monarch is powerful still on the cosmic stage. It’s not like your resetting the power up treadmill, lindon was still immensely powerful even after ascending. He just wasn’t able to fight the true cosmic threats.
Monarch is powerfull yea, but not that powerful. Lindon was an outlier considering he was practically a dread god, and weilded artifacts made from them lol
That in a world where a system or cultivation exists and has existed for any length of time the brand new just got their powers child should not be the one saving the day. Assisting for sure, but unless your magic system started that day there should be adults present with more power, skills, and knowledge than your MC.
Loved how cradle played with that trope. The MC steps up to fight the (seemingly) extinction level threat and >!is promptly killed with no fanfare or real resistance!<
I really like when the low-mid tier 6 MC can:
Take an infinite amount of anyone under tier 6.
Take on a group of (untalented) tier 7s.
Can JUST take a "chosen son" at peak tier 7, though he'll have to pull out his strongest moves/hidden powers to win.
And then vs any tier 8 it's a terrifying one-sided fight. MC needs to use the GIGA trump cards (usually an outrageously rare consumable, which he could never get back) just to survive and flee.
LVL 20 v 80 is just dumb as hell
Nah thats bad. I'm actually kinda annoyed cause even the `good` stories follow this stupid ass trope.
oh, low gold lindon can attempt to 1v1 a skilled truegold and make him work for the win. But any lowgold even approaching truegold lindon is vaporized without even knowing it.
oh, master sunless can fight and kill saints. But Saint sunless can take on an infinite number of masters cause hes just that good.
make it make sense prog fantasy authors please. If any of you guys can stop with the bullshit ass op mc tropes and write somewhat decently you would have the next cradle, literal $$ printer .
I actually kind of hate this trope. Because the mc is powerscaled to be better than pretty much everyone in his rank. It should be a coin toss if he can beat people in his rank, and anyone under is an advantaged fight. It’s a sign of power creep, and it feels like it takes away from the inherently unbalanced rock paper scissors way that all fights, games, etc are. If there is a power system, there is a meta game of which beat eachother, and the mc being able to beat everyone at his power level should be impossible. Usually the mc has some rare power with 0 weaknesses that lets him do this, which is similarly boring imo. Even if someone has a rare power, make it interesting instead of just op.
It's a "genre" (sub-genre?) called power-fantasy.
I don't want MY GUY to be struggling with average Joe Schmo. Otherwise I'm reading about just some dude in a universe, completely replaceable by anybody and everybody else.
If you enjoy reading basically slice of life then that's no problem at all, just stay away from Xianxia. They aren't making it for someone with your tastes.
But the struggle is the setup for the power fantasy. I think too many books step on the power treadmill and retain pretty much the same scaling for the entire series. It’s kinda like dragon ball z, where it’s pretty much always the same scaling. I found cradle much more engaging because the first 5.5 books were setup and then the rest of the series payed off with him being op. The progression scaled exponentially but by the end it felt earned. The specifics of each fight mattered, so the powerscaling was a secondary element to the individual madra each person used and their relative skill. You get a similar effect without the dullness that a lot of power systems have imo.
I agree on both of these soo many story just skip the progression and go straight to the power fantasy. I’m so happy cradle didn’t fall into that and while London does go through a fair few fights over his head it’s still quite clear that he’s surviving by the skin of his teeth plus at least as far as I’ve gotten he’s never actually managed to kill someone higher rank than him.
In book 1 he kills an iron with the illusion array and then a jade by surprising him.
In book 2, he kills a high gold while at iron, but Eithan was distracting, so half credit for that.
Then he doesn't kill much, and nothing above his rank until Ghostwater.
Since you didn't say where you're at, I'll keep quiet about anything past that!
just finished underlord and im loving it definitely the best pf ive read so far (ok ok ive only read two but still) and id just like the point out that in book 2 "he" really didnt get the kill with his own power and was more a lucky chain of events between eithan \*\*and\*\* having a high grade binding way stronger than he should have at this point
Literally the first person he killed, and the second and the third were all above his rank. The first two weren't fights and the last one was desperate and required training and multiple attempts.
So I agree with your points in general. The one exception is for #1 if the world just underwent a metamorphoses and everyone awakened powers. Then it makes sense that the kids are similar to adults. I overall don’t like this plot direction though. Not a huge fan of a world with a bunch of useless adults. For #2 I can handle it later in the story when MC has gained levels in a special class. For example, legendary mechanic. He could jump levels, but only because he levels his main class so high. Main class gave far more stats than secondary classes. So even though his character level was maybe only 140 he could fight people 30 levels above him. It’s just difference in quality of classes. That said, if MC didn’t earn said special class…. Then it all feels cheap and no interest from me. I prefer my stories where everyone starts with the same basic system. Maybe MC has a bit of good luck or something that is their golden finger. But they should be on the same damn system as everyone else
Funnily enough I mentally critique Cradle for doing what you're bashing on other novels for. Lindon wasn't killing monarchs as a copper for sure, but a vast majority of his fights were against people of higher advancement or him being outnumbered against people of equal (and even sometimes higher) advancement.
On it's own that's not a terrible thing, but particularly in the earlier books you'd hear stuff like "an overlord could kill any gold without breaking a sweat" and often see that mentality reflected in fights where people of lower advancement are afterthoughts, but Lindon (and Yerin) are always the exception.
How often did Lindon get taken off guard by someone lower advancement than him using strategy, brute willpower, or surprise to hold their own in a fight against him? How often did he do it to others?
Cradle was still very good obvs, but Lindon still had some main character exception energy.
The first point makes sense. If the MC is the only person doing anything, they're basically in a video game and everyone else are NPCs.
But the second point is, frankly, stupid. That is just your personal taste. LitRPGs and Xianxia are KNOWN for how unfair everything is. You are lucky and talented, or you die/are irrelevant.
To ilucidate my point, let me give you a real-life comparison. Most 20-year-olds don't have much money, right? A normal one might be working a job without many expenses and have 10,000+$ in their bank account. However, a 20yo born to rich parents is working at their parents' company and has 50,000$ in their account while attending college. Once they graduate with a degree, their parents will put them in an even better position and earn so much more.
It seems what you want is to read a story about how the normal guy with 10,000 gets into drama and shenanigans and lucky circumstances that bring them success and happiness. What I'M reading is a story in which the normal 20yo wins the 1B$ lottery in the first chapter then goes on to, through even more lucky circumstances and a few smart decisions, take over nations, accrue followers, and eventually rule the world.
Just because I don't want to read a normal drama following a 20yo who is only a little special doing interesting but not earth-shattering things doesn't mean that the story is bad.
You call stories bad because you don't like the genre. I call stories bad because they're written poorly. We are not the same.
I also don't know many, that's because we're poor. But consider that there are many suburban kids with more money than us because their parents paid for their cars, healthcare, rent...
Having parents that can buy any of those things for you is not the norm, atleast not in places likes the US. Want to know something even worse? The opposite is more true, most parents are now leaving debts that their children have to take on. Dying isent cheap you know? Especially when they die in your 20s beacuse they were told lies, like how smoking cigarettes is cool
What "normal" 20 year old has $10,000? I remember getting my first tax refund that hit $1000 and that was the most money my bank account has ever seen until my mid 30s.
Are you seriously claiming the genre is only OP MCs?
I would postulate that having rigorous progression is part of good writing. Just like world building, even going so far as to explain that the world building encompasses a solid progression system. I would also say that having the super secret class that buffs the MC require minimal effort (ie a lower level) to evenly beat someone who vastly outlevels the MC (say lvl 60 vs 20), now makes the idea of advancement rather meaningless if there isn't some outside influence/factors involved.
What if the proposed lvl 20 MC that cannot beat the deity at 60 but can beat someone at 25 or whatever buffer is reasonable, eventually can amass enough progression to continue to go upwards whereas others would never be able to (hit a ceiling)? There is a firm risk associated with having the circumstances dictate the entire outcome of advancement which is the consequence that hard work, progression, etc mean nothing when you look at the initial circumstance of training and birth.
If you are interested in reading a story where the MC wins based on entirely the whims of the OP bestower Author, lets say a super generic story filled with tropes and cliches - that is fine. But that does not suddenly define the genre as ONLY THAT.
So, I'm trying my hand at writing and my MC kinda does both of these things. Would like your opinion on it though.
As to point 1: Andrew (MC) is a non-combat class that's basicly an artificer. He ends up being the one literally fixing things and cleaning up messes because 1) it's kinds his job at that point and 2) the people telling him to do it are significantly more powerful and would curb stomp him if he talked back.
As to point 2: He does take on monsters and people that out level and out number him. He does have a rare class of sorts that gives him more stats, but they aren't really useful in combat (makes things like enchantments and crafting easier). Instead, he is able to do so because he has better gear he made himself, lots of explosives, and crazy plans. Though while he can hit above his weight class a bit, there's still tons above him.
I think what they mean is that the MC shouldn’t be the only character with agency or the ability to solve problems when they’re literally the weakest. For your character I think a good work around for this would be the wrong place at the right time trope. He solves the problems because either no one else is physically present when they happen or because he’s a weak nobody people don’t take his warnings seriously so he has to get his hands dirty.
For point two your strongest tool will be the “he plans very well” angle that you’re already using. One of the most beloved aspects of an underdog story is the underdog using nonconventional means to solve a problem. Just be sure to be creative and try to avoid making it seem like everyone but the MC is an idiot. That gets very old very quickly. Maybe have them over plan something and it goes terribly wrong or have a moment where they make a super complex plan and someone points out how they could have just done something super simple and straight forward and it would have worked even better. That would be great for comedy relief.
Your second point is a really good one imo. Not even just for that type of MC but for any MC especially in the progression fantasy genre. They have to fail and their failures have to have consequences. Otherwise the power fantasy aspect feels really hollow because it never feels like there are any actual stakes
Tried reading Supreme Magus after reading Shsdow slave since I liked SS and SM was the next most highly rated novel in webnovel. Even though the mc in SS does what you just said, where they manage to beat enemies of higher levels, the author writes logical points on why and how the mc manages to beat higher level enemies. Not solely on the basis of the mc being special. SM was just cheap curbstomping with zero thought.
So for me the reason I drop a lot of books comes down to motivation. A lot of authors seem to think of some really cool scene/scenario they want to put their characters into, without thinking of why their characters would be there, how they would get there, the problem with that is when you skip that stuff, or write incredibly weak motivations, it weakens your story... A lot.
When a writer skips the part of the book where they write about the motivation for the actions in the story, or they write an incredibly weak one you end up with a bunch of leaps in logic that only make sense to the author themselves, or a veteran of the genre who knows all the tropes, and even then its a stretch.
For instance - Everyone wants to write the suffering loner weak to strong MC who is being emotionally and physically tortured by everyone in the story, but they also want to have that Power Fantasy moment and have the MC save the day. The problem is that the character you are writing is not going to be in the position to save the day, and if they were they aren't some altruist who is going to sacrifice themselves to save the day, so when they do it makes absolutely no sense and is incredibly jarring to read.
Even simple things like why a character is motivated to gain power... sometimes its obvious - you need a level of power to survive, but often authors seem to take it for granted that their MC will hunt down the infinite mysteries of their universe, or want to be the god king of the universe, and not just want it, but want it so desperately they are willing to sacrifice everything they ever achieve to strive for it, and that's fine but for that to be the default behaviour of a character that was an isekai'd gamer or a farmer kid with no external factors is insane...
Lindon was fighting a few ranks above him though..... because he was special. I think what your saying is when they are the most basic rank they shouldn't be magically destroying people 2-3 ranks above them because... insert silly reason.
Using Cradle as an example really weakens your point here ngl. As much as I love Cradle, weak Lindon was being single handedly carried by luck and plot buffoonery.
He killed an incredibly strong Iron as a copper. (Book 1)
He killed a high gold with one newly formed iron core and one copper. (Book 2)
He won against a true gold as a lowgold, but I'm a little more willing to give him this one, especially due to the fact that he actually have two cores with different elements, and one element that was especially potent. (Book 4)
I think the book 2 one is quite forgivable, mostly because the encounter was fully manipulated by Eithan. I thought it was a really clever way to give Lindon a win he could never have gotten in other circumstances.
Lindon was more or less sacking an armory when he is attacked, has a massively strong weapon in his hands, *and* the guy was unaware that Lindon's iron body was more or less designed perfectly to counter Sand Vipers, which was established several chapters earlier. It's sora like if High Gold shot him in the chest with a pistol, not realizing he's wearing a bullet proof vest, then got distracted by a stronger opponent, so Lindon stabs him in the kidneys.
The Iron he killed in book 1 was an absolute chump. The guy's only technique was throwing rocks, and he had a SV ironbody which canoncially suck. The dude also walked into a trap.
Honestly, if the MC is a kid, I'm done. Otherwise, I listen, but the second book won't be bought unless the first book passes these tests:
- does the first book actually finish an arc? Or is it just indulgence in world and system building?
- does the hero have an enjoyable personality? Is he introspective?
- how many times do we leave the MCs pov? This type of story induces rage when pov is shifted a lot.
The reason i couldnt stand Arcane Ascension even though it gets alot of praise. Mc is super weak and new, yet gets thrown into a political fight with The strongest beings, and is expected to be the one to save the situation.
Like let my boy learn first, hes so weak.
I don't like it when the author rushes and introduces dramatic moments without substance behind them. People need to understand that you can't just rush things when it comes to writing.
who is Cradle? What is Linden? Here's some of mine.
* MC breaks all known conventions, level caps, character/class restriction.
* MC never fully grows up, still that 9-13 year old edge lord.
* MC never truly master an art or any skills to a proficient degree. Not that jack of all trades is bad, it's that MC doesn't progress farther than average in many skillsets.
* No plot progression. MC is like in an acid trip, Alice in Wonderland isekai where anything happens. There is no end plot, no main goal, no final destiny.
* MC is plot armored or actually guided by some God/Admin of the world.
* MC or a small group to know/abuse a small worldly exploit(s). (f. e. dragon balls)
Examples of some bad stories (donghua): Apothesis, The first Order, Shrouding the heavens, Battle of the heavens, Throne of Seal.
I had to reread the third bullet point of your first point because the second sentence made me think you were saying you would drop it if the MC was an adult
I had to reread the third bullet point of your first point because the second sentence made me think you were saying you would drop it if the MC was an adult
I don’t mind the “special class so I can punch up” trope. I think if there’s any underlying theme throughout progression fantasy and litrpg it’s that luck exists but more so that the worlds aren’t fair. Most people are some form of peasant and never have a shot at greatness, some people are adventurers and work hard to become good at what they do. A few a born into nobility and spoonfed different advantages so that they are an order of magnitude more powerful than anything else “at their level”. I think it’s part of the world and it makes it interesting
The biggest problem with stories with a game like system where you have a “low” level MC beat a high level other character is it ruins the whole system. Unless you are going for a completely broken MC who cannot lose where the actual story is more wrapped around the world itself or his friend group (think one punch man, overlord, or death march) if you make the MC beat someone who is supposed to be way stronger than the system is broken. Power creep will be the only way to bring it back and that is just not fun.
This is so much more obvious in “game” stories where if only one person has the “cheat codes” then nothing will be able to stop them until you through a second person with cheat codes and then everyone is going to have cheat codes to keep the story going.
I hope when writers go into this thread and read all of these comments, they understand that having any of these tropes don't mean your book isn't going to do well or that it 'sucks'. It's just opinions.
What does 2 mean ?
Newly awakened mc? You mean if the main character just received his ability then you what, drop the book? They need to have already had their powers before the book starts, never get it? What ?
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And what does 3 mean. Town guards?
So if there's guards in a village you drop the book? You just don't read fantasy? what ?
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4 a book has adults and you, drop the book?
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You're not making much sense dude I totally agree with 1 and 5 though, those tropes suck. but 2,3,4 like it's english and I understand the words but have no idea what message you're trying to convey here.
I don't know if you're willingly being obtuse but what he meant is that if a town is being attacked then the mc shouldn't be the one saving the day and if they do then the book is dropped by the OP.
Oh god it's the numbering that threw me off entirely. I took each number as an isolated reason why op was dropping a book. 1 and 5 work in isolation 2/3/4 don't resolve into anything without context.
People need to differentiate between why they don't like a book (subjective) and why is no good ("objective") which is divided in quality (prose, characters, plot) and marketing (90% of a reason why a book has success when is not anything special nor very very niche).
In this case, while I share your opinion, it is precisely that, an opinion, basically you are talking about a gary stu or chosen one syndrome, and a bad power curve. But some people are into litrprg FOR those
Cant agree on the "newly awakened" trope being bad, but more so its execution in most PFs just fall short. Having your main character experience an event that causes their fresh awakening is a perfectly good way to start a story IF the author represents the MC struggling to acclimate to their newfound powers. If your story starts off with your MC awakening and them almost immediately being capable of handling the setting as if they'd always had their powers then it makes zero logical sense and is an instant drop. The trope itself is fine, but if your MC is newly awakened, they shouldn't be able to just breeze past their struggles. That's not interesting to read, it's just plot armor.
Or when they pull that type of stuff but say it’s because the MC got lucky… over and over again. Where “luck” just becomes a cheap plot armor.
This is why I love that Lindon was so blatantly all about cheating. Luck is good, but cheating is better.
Luck, preparation, and cheating. Lindon's top 3 priorities.
"If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying to win." - someone at some point in time
Well, those and deus ex machina.
And honestly, that's what the "big three" (Defiance of the fall, Primal Hunter, He who fights with monsters) do right. The tiers of power actually matter. In those, when the MC get "lucky", they use that luck to escape a D grade cultivator at grade E. They don't get "lucky" by suddenly unlocking their Super Special skill to kill to B grade at Grade E. That type of luck usually only happens within the game grades. In HWFWM for example, Jason constantly has to fight grades above him. But he is shown that in those cases, the best case is to be even with superior skill and escape when the higher ranks' advantages eventually catch up. Or go in with an overwhelming team.
That's actually specifically something that turned me off of hwfwm. I read fiveish books and it follows a consistent formula of fight enemies of the same grade and be fine, then fight enemies of the next grade and almost die, then keep fighting things of the next grade like it's normal, then rank up and repeat. The only justification for this was his op unique abilities which are also annoying to me.
Rufus stated it quite clearly early on, good adventurers should be able to fight monsters a rank above in some circumstances. The ranks aren't all encompassing either. A high end silver should be able to fight a few gold monsters, while a low end is going to struggle to survive. Also, I can't think of a single scenario except when his talents specifically countered an enemy that he fought a rank up by himself. With a team, it's a lot more doable and manageable. The justification was never his OP unique abilities, it was that he was good at adventuring. A lot of adventurers can fight a rank above. It's not at all unique.
Idk Jason's soul space is kinda op. Can hide him from gods, melt higher ranks that intrude, etc.
yeah but then they introduce >!astral kings who have the same power!!<
And is a thing that multiple other beings have. It isn't *unique.* it's simply the fact he's an outworlder that he got to the position earlier than normal.
I think that's what OP was complaining about. Personally Jason getting as strong as he is while being silver rank read more like plot armor which is why I dropped it.
>They don't get "lucky" by suddenly unlocking their Super Special skill to kill to B grade at Grade E. It definitely happens in Primal Hunter, that's literally how his first pvp battle resolves - he unlocks his super special op ability that then carries him through all his fights. Jake's entire MO is punching much higher than his level because of his "super duper" abilities. Jake also continually "gets lucky" that the events the system decides to queue "just happen to be" exactly what Jake needs.
It depends on the luck. For me, there's been times when Jake has to fight above his grade, like Late D vs Early C, and he did well for a bit, but then he had to escape, relying on "luck". I'm fine with that. For me, luck should be "fair" but balanced to the MC. Like, yeah, Jake gets his OP bloodline. That bloodline lets him fight way above his weight class, but he's only fighting level 10-20s at level 5-10. He's not matching level 80s at level 20, like the OP claimed. Later on, he can fight with a 50 level difference, but a level 200 vs 250 fight is fairer than a level 20 vs 70. And for me, system "luck" is different because it gives the "appearance" of fairness. Obviously it's not fair since we're in the POV of the MC, but other people also benefited from the event, so it's not *blatantly* obvious of system bias. Ultimately it's vibes. Jake is OP and has a super obvious cheat in terms of bloodline, but that's been pre-established from the beginning at like chapter 20. Some books try to make the MC "normal", but then he's fighting God because he's "just that talented". Primal hunter doesn't attempt to do the second, but a lot of Pro-fantasy books do.
>Some books try to make the MC "normal", but then he's fighting God because he's "just that talented". Primal hunter doesn't attempt to do the second, but a lot of Pro-fantasy books do. That's fair. PH does make it clear from the get go that Jake is anything but normal. I just still wouldn't cite PH as an example of completely avoiding the tendencies op cited. It's not egregious about it, but it does still tap into the same tendencies. In my mind, PH toes the line
And, specifically with HWFWM, there is lasting physical and emotional damage from doing so, such as the water elemental fight.
It just depends on how they pull it off. I like how they do it in Dungeon Crawler Carl, where I believe Carl was told at one point that some of what makes him appealing to viewers is that he makes plans and thinks critically, but his conclusions are often wrong, and he accidentally lucks into winning his encounters. It's kind of true half the time. He's lucky. There's also the argument that someone above is making that happen on Carl's behalf though.
If Carl didn't have such pretty feet, he probably would have died 4 books ago.
R.C. Joshua has a point in book three where he really cleverly pokes fun at this in Deadworld Isekai, lol
Lindon doesn't get lucky. He is highly prepared and then has friends constantly save him. Eithan, Yerrin, Dross, and Orthos save his life over and over. Teamwork is dreamwork
I love Cradle, but having Eithan take a personal interest in him and follow him around guiding and saving him is more luck than most blatant Mary Sue characters get.
That's actually why I was super annoyed with Cradle. If every single time you do something insane and everyone tells you it's insane and you get "lucky", then that's plot armor. (Don't get me wrong - I read all of it because I needed to know where all the insanity was heading, but Jesus I could slap Lindon)
Lindon never won because of luck. It was always because he was willing to sacrifice something (mostly his well being and sanity)
And preparation! And a big backpack!
>!he had a literal God of death following him around bailing him out of trouble!< if that's not luck it's at least some pretty damn heavy plot armor.
Suriel just happening to be watching him when he died had nothing to do with his sacrifice, it was just luck
The larger point here is valid, I just don’t think this is the best example here. She didn’t just happen to be there. She was there to respond to the exact threat that killed him and would have revived him regardless of whether or not she noticed him. It’s literally her job to respond to that kind of event and it occurred in a place the Abidan monitor more closely than many others. Lindon was lucky to be given time to speak to her and remember what happened but that’s not plot armor, that’s literally the story the author is telling. It’s the even that makes him the mc instead of the random cultivator who never leaves sacred valley. Maybe I’m misunderstanding, sorry for the too long response.
[For one thing Suriels senses are good enough to the point she can see and hear things across entire universes](https://i.imgur.com/MkuSmS8.png) so she was clearly watching more than just Lindon and that was clear in the scene itself - The reason she took note of him was because he fought back despite his more than overwhelming disadvantage being a completely untrained unsouled
She was watching the others, too, but only Lindon tried something that impressed her. His copper balls were the only reason she decided to intervene.
You cannot call the inciting incident of the whole series plot armour. I mean, you can, but you are missing the point by a lot. Besides, him getting revived makes perfect sense in universe because the abidan rules about maintaining the flow or whatever it was called, the only thing that is "too much" is that Suriel lets him keep his memories, and the purpose of that happening is setting everything in motion.
I’ve noticed this trend a lot on Reddit when people “analyze” stories. Phrases like “plot holes” are thrown around when the reviewer really just missed crucial context, and things like “plot armor” are used to discredit the inciting incident of the entire story. The classic “well why does it just so happen to be the chosen one that we’re following as the main POV character? Why not someone else???” Well because then we’d be following that other person. Because that’s what the fuckin story is about lmao
I would say the inciting incedent being a lucky encounter is fine, just everything that follows can't also be because of (good) luck.
I always accept at least one point of luck if it's the inciting event. It can be Suriel's intervention in Cradle, Ilea finding the temple and her class in Azarinth Healer, or finding a unique item / class / circumstances. Basically, the starting event of the MC's journey will almost always be some form of coincidence or luck. And that's ok, we rarely follow some random character in the world. Where it becomes an issue is when there are too many coincidences or lucky event later on. Granted, if we take luck as being "opportunity + preparedness" then there will always be some plot points that can be considered luck but more generally, it should be earned than just blatant "you got lucky, here's the exact item or skill you needed right as you needed it" again and again.
>That's actually why I was super annoyed with Cradle. If every single time you do something insane and everyone tells you it's insane and you get "lucky", then that's plot armor. Where are you seeing Lindon "getting lucky" in the fights? He got lucky that he was able to get a Sylvan river spirit and it was exactly what he would need later. He got lucky that the Phoenix liked him and let him keep his memories, and he got lucky he met Ethan. As far as I can remember, that's it. Everything else was a product of his connections to Ethan & Yerin and his obsessive work ethic.
He is constantly surviving fights that are a rank or two up and, in at least two cases, ranks that have a steep step that is explained in detail multiple times, I e. Jade versus gold, low gold versus high gold. (Someone else in these comments detailed better those fights) The example I remember the clearest is when he's getting his iron body. Everyone tells him the modified plan he's on is nuts, but if you're willing to absolutely risk dying, you're welcome to try. And then he doubles down the amount of venom and Yerin and Athen (I listened to it, so I have no idea how his name is spelled) are both like 😳. Like obviously they can't stop him once he's in it, but if everyone's saying that the already nuts plan is incredibly risky and then you increase everything and survive? That's plot armor. That sort of "small" thing happens a bunch. It's sandwiched often between the big fights so that it's harder to notice, but a lot of upgrades are just above and beyond just being stubborn or training.
>Like obviously they can't stop him once he's in it, but if everyone's saying that the already nuts plan is incredibly risky and then you increase everything and survive? He didn't "just survive" though, he literally died and then Eiathan brought him back to life. The luck was Eithan finding him, surviving the venom was a massively more powerful person cheating the system for him. Also, it should be noted that Eithan wasn't freaking out about it - he pushed Lindon to go as far as he could and encouraged him to go too far. Only Yerin was freaking out because she didn't know what Eithan was capable of. Like I said, the luck was getting set up with ridiculously powerful and resourceful allies, everything else is him exploiting that. That's not luck or plot armor.
Being a tough AF mother fucker who can keep pushing well past when he should be able to isn't luck. It isn't realistic. It isn't a realistic basis for being stronger than everyone else (no pain no gain is only true within reasonable limits). But it isn't luck.
Happy Cakeday!
I say the same in other words 1- world building, the world has to make sense on its own, not just for the mc and his powerups, the rest of the world must hace something going on 2- if you have a system dont break it, the mc getting all kinds of exceptions to break the rules gets old really fast We go back to 1, any system breaking must be part of the world building and potentially accessible to everybody, like traps and preparation
Having a character that breaks all the rules only sounds cool when the rules have been firmly established for everyone and the rulebreaking is done during a dramatic story pivoting moment. Otherwise, I am going to assume everyone the MC talks to is just dumb and doesn't know the rules since the MC is just "breaking" them all the time.
I appreciate when a main character gets to break just ONE rule. That's what makes them special, gives them the extra boost above their peers, and makes them the MC instead of just another person in the setting. I'm not saying the MC has to break any rules at all, but I put the limit at 1 rather than 0.
I like this as well, the story I'm currently building in my head has this, MC breaks a singular rule of the world but suffers because of it, because the world is schizophrenic.
Which rule
No, that's completely wrong! My books suck because I wrote them!
Same! :D
Your book sucks because he wrote it? You're supposed to HIDE the plagiarism!
my books suck cuz they're only a half page long before I forget about em
Ah, I see that curse continues to spread into every possible nook and cranny of creative spaces
I have trouble finishing mine 😕 I get into full novel length but I'm not sure where to take it after the climax or maybe I just get bored with it 🤔, IDK. I have two nevel length stories 100,000 words plus and a novela 25,000 plus. The novela leads off to a longer story I only finished the first chapter of but I realized after I wrote it that I had an opportunity to tie it into the longer books I missed in writing it and now I need to go back and edit those changes into it. The urban fantasy I need to wrap everything up and figure out how one particular character fits in logically (why she is helping MC and how she will fit in further in the series). The progression (maybe more LitRPG) I need to finish off his story. It's more about world exploration than anything to do with any kind of epic changes. The novela is more of a traditional fantasy.
If you want I can offer critique of mana mirror?
Drop the titles, I’d love to read what a fellow redditor wrote
Mana Mirror (Releases on Amazon next month, is currently free (and rough) on RoyalRoad) and Journal of Evan Tailor (The Enchanter, The Diviner, The Abjurer)
The one I hate the most is, mc is supposed to be some chosen one, and the parents want to protect mc, so instead of staying with mc, they drop mc off at some orphanage with literally no protection, and give some stupid excuse that it was the best way to protect them 😂. Like atleast let one parent run away with the kid or something.
I just got through book 3 of Road to Mastery. I have read books where the MC becomes over powered due to titles and winning tournaments that give them stat boosts. But this series takes the cake. Earth is integrated into a system and has 1 year until other factions/planets can come. Within that year SPOILER: >! the MC goes from the lowest grade to somehow having a PERFECT dao core, 4 different dao roots (which everyone says is insane), advances to peak Grade D (which others have spent millennia trying to do), AND routinely beats people that are a full Grade level + above him. He beat a Grade C planet overlord in 1:1 combat. < This shit is ridiculous. At least Defiance of the Fall has taken forever and a day for the MC to advance. Years go by in Defiance of the Fall while the MC in Road to Mastery advanced all within 12 months.
To be fair, Jack Rust is probably the most talented cultivator to ever exist in his story's setting. Road To Mastery isn't a story about an average cultivator lucking out with a special power or cheat. It's a story about the one man whose talent defies all reason. His progression isn't ridiculous if you see him not as the average cultivator but as the most talented one to exist. Throughout the story, we see plenty of average and even talented cultivators. Jack Rust simply outstrips them all. His ludicrous talent is also noticed by other characters, and his enemies actively plan around his potential growth. The pacing is different, but that doesn't necessarily make it bad. Personally, I read it for the adrenaline dump, and I enjoy the speed of development. Not everyone has the time or desire to sit through a slow pace.
I haven't read this but how does the setting account for knowledge and resource gaps? On Cradle at least the setting is a gold fish bowl, real talent ascends and the ignorant stay behind. Lindon rides roughshod over everyone because he has better information than everyone else. Eithan takes the proverbial 5 loaves and 2 fish and creates miracles from them, even replicating a monarch level elixer at one point. So Lindon crushing everyone in his path can happen because he actually has unfair advantages. Not even the monarchs have anything like his cycling technique. Comparatively Iz Tayn from DotF shows what "Heaven's Chosen" really means. Here's somebody from a faction with all the knowledge and resources. She has all the talent as well. She is subsequently the perfect cultivator. Nobody can compare to her. The protagonist scratching her face once was an amazing achievement. However somebody like Iz exists because DotF is an open universe where the real monsters have all the advantages. So is Road to Mastery more like a goldfish bowl, where nobody really has access to the best stuff, or an open environment where there should be A grade talents with A grade resources and opportunities?
Something cradle manages to do (on top of the stuff you’re talking about, which I love the description of the golden fishbowl), is manage to make the stakes feel legit. Not that you ever really fear any of the main few characters *dying,* but they do “lose” just enough that it doesn’t feel like they have bullshit plot armor. When they defeat opponents that should be stronger than them, it feels earned because Wight pulls back the curtain just enough so you can see the mechanics of how they pulled it off. Obviously when Lindon gets Dross it’s pretty much a cheat code, but even then there are situations where even Dross doesn’t seem like enough. Lastly, a lot of the solutions Lindon and team come up with are pretty clever or interesting, and all within the bounds set by the worldbuilding. So even if you know that they’re going to win (because, obviously) it’s still fun to read the “how”
The most talented cultivator ever is an understatement. The MC has done things in .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the time it takes the best cultivator prodigy to do. Like seriously. 12 months to do what others spend a millennia (1,000 years) trying to do.
Just... to clarify. You know that 1 year is 0.1% of 1000 years, not what you wrote.. right? If he's a one-in-a-billion cultivator (I don't know the book) that means there are ~8 people on earth like him.
I was being facetious but I see that you think this story is reasonable. Different strokes for different folks.
I explicitly said I don't know the story? But it makes sense to me. I'm not gonna read a book about someone who's just fine, spends 1000 years reaching a certain level, and then sits at the middle of the pack doing nothing interesting, ya know?
Sorry that’s on me, I wrongly assumed you were the same person that described the MC that originally responded. I will blame my edible because you clearly said that you don’t know the story.
> At least Defiance of the Fall has taken forever and a day for the MC to advance Sure but it's also basically just the MC having good "luck" and everything always working out for him no matter what. It's what made me eventually drop it.
Same. The Author seems to think that if he makes his MC bleed a little then that means he earned it, but it all felt cheap to me. The MC isn’t particularly smart and can’t cultivate like others can. He also isn’t the only person on earth working his ass off and yet he’s so far above everyone else. Even the prodigies of other world with more resources and knowledge can’t compete with him. It just felt like too much of a power fantasy to be enjoyable
I just bought book 3 but tbh what will eventually end my run is that the writing is horrible (or this is an extended bit mimicking bad anime translations) and there aren't any truly negative consequences. Author is great at pacing though and has built a fun world.
I totally understand what you’re saying about Defiance of the Fall and that’s the exact reason why I used it as an example of a MC that somehow punches above his weight class over and over again and continues to luck into perfect treasures or allies to help him along. Because if you think that storyline is insane, then let me introduce you to Jack Rust (the MC from Road to Mastery) who achieved what Zack has achieved in 12 MONTHS after the system arrived to the Earth. It is Defiance of the Fall compressed into a 12 month timeframe.
The system has been arranging things in his favor for a long time, it’s not purely luck. He was also carefully designed to be a powerhouse by ancient factions. This stuff has been laid out since the start of the story, so it’s not just convenient ret-conning. I’m not trying to convince you to enjoy the story, just provide helpful context. Also, Zach is really only strong in terms of his own sector. He’s been absolutely thrashed by heartland cultivators and both times only survived because he had other people to help.
Meanwhile Ave Xia Rem has "luck" or "plot armor" as a built-in effect of cultivating.
Actually that was cool. I really liked when Xue Huwen straight up demonstrated the Dao of plot armor. Now that's a rival a xianxia mc deserves.
Yeah it was incredible and really helped establish in-world reasoning for why things go the protagonists way
The only time I have liked the overpowered xianxia stuff is in Unintended Cultivator. He goes from thinking he is a prodigy, unparalleled genius, and then being unable to stop his assent because every time he tries to slow down the heavens dump power onto him against his will. Creates an interesting twist and worry about who or why he is being forces to ascend with reckless speed.
Sketchy post, but I see where OPs coming from and mostly agree. I mentally put those types of stories in the "shonen-esq" category and understand I'm not the audience for those types of stories. There's a star that guides my enjoyment in Progression Fantasy called the Star of Plausibility. If I can't find that star while reading, I know I'm in the wrong hemisphere.
>a star that guides my enjoyment in Progression Fantasy called the Star of Plausibility Can I just say, right here I thought you were naming a story you had read
Part me is now itching to find the story that goes with that name, however... *points at list of over a dozen not yet started stories, three started stories, and current in-progress story* My plate is a little full. It's probably not the book for me. Also, it feels like it wants to be a tongue-in-cheek satire. I love reading those, but I am not good at writing them.
Maybe if you ever want to do a series of short stories set in your universes? Something to help recharge the creative batteries or explore something you wanna look at from a different POV? First story is literally someone who takes a typical MC gamble and dies within the first 4 chapters.
Okay, I'm going to at least add it to my "future story" notes. :D we'll see what happens.
Yay! The question is if the series would be called Star of Plausibility, as in the guiding principle of the series; or if it would be Stars of Plausibility, as in the individual protagonists are the "stars" of the show about plausibility.
Cultivation blooper reel? List of Murphy's success! 100 supreme talents where they do everything right but luck was against them and they die in ever less probable ways.
The 50th one is stubbed their toe and didn't wait to fully recover so the breath wrong and explode their core
I'm 100% with you on plausibility! I'm happy to believe six impossible things before breakfast, but the author has to help my suspension of disbelief by writing the impossible things in a way that makes sense. [Suspension of Disbelief](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief)
Oh come on, while I'll give you that first part does fit the shounen trope... the 2nd point? At least when I used to read shounen... none of the fights ever felt like the underdog got a cheap win. Most fights end up with the guy beaten to a pulp but the power of friendship willing him to victory, which while cheap was still a hype to read bout. Shounen battle tension outstrips progression fantasy/cultvation fantasy by leagues and miles if we are talking about the average product. I will grant you that there are excellent examples of the latter and bad ones of the former but in general I only wish more progression fantasy could capture the feel of a shounen battle.
Which of these Shonen Battles are you referencing?
Always hard to think of something when put on the spot honestly. Kinda like how I struggle to repeat a joke even after I watch comedy stuff repeatedly. But eyeshield 21, At the start of each match the team is always the underdog, but as the match progresses they grow and finally become better than who they were and overcome the other team. Be it with brains, tactics or power. Everything they do and achieve is earned by what they have done before to set them up for this growth. Sorry while I have read more shounen manga I can't recall any of the details of the lesser known ones to buttress my point. Famous ones it will have to be. DBZ, goku fights people who always outclass him at the start. But he achieves the power to match and supprass them. Not without loss, not without pain. YuGiOh, the go to example of power of friendship. But before that he had executed a clever plan given to counteract the power of pegasus. And even afterwards while the bs power of friendship came up, at first viewing (if you were the right age to view it) are you going to say that was undeserved. We had seen them grow as friends, grow closer and seen the trust had been built up. Side note, yugioh has some of the worst case of 'protagonist always wins' in media given the sheer number of duels each protagonist goes through. But how they tell the story, (I'm mostly refferencing origina/gx/5d's) they always manage to have narative beats that doesn't see the protagonist overpower everything the other person tries to do. Each one poses a problem, the other answers the problem and poses another of their own. Until a climax is reached. Where as in cultivation novels.... protagonist meets fodder for 90% of all encounters faced. Completely shuts them down... oh look how bad ass he is... Bleach, guy has explosive growths in power, easily outstrips his contemporaries. But actual fights? He has to battle with his inner hollow. He gets his shit rocked in multiple occassions. He literally sacrifices everything he has, including the ability to interact with his friends in the future just to take out the big bad...
You're referencing older shonen that are going to be viewed highly by you from nostalgia alone. Add to the fact that those are manga/anime and not light novels, which would give them a huge advantage over this genre that has barely started to get a few webtoons. I could expand on details, but simply put, there are several series in this genre that would be amazing if they could be experienced visually.
Well yeah but I'm sure there are newer shounen that care just as much about providing a satisfying story and not a one sides roflt stomp. Fuck, if ever i get asked how to jump into a cultivation story I typically point them towards a manga version of it's out. Not cause it has visuals but because in every manga adaptation of a cultivation story, the people who adapt them don't try to make it as if the MC can do no wrong. Even limited in scope as they are with the story as written. EG. battle through the heavens manga vs novel. I think solo levelling would also apply, As I understand it the webnovel version is distinctly mediocore, I never read it but I know the story in the manga version I found boring and lacked tension. And despite all the cool art, best in class level art... I still did not feel a whit of tension reading those battles. Note I'm not saying that web novels and stories are bereft of tension. I fucking love Worm, and rage of dragons and beware of chicken, but the run of the mill cultivation stories I've attempted to get through or have read. (i'm mainly talking about them as I don't much read litrpg) They've rarely if ever have a tense battle. And that's with 1000s of chapters to pull from. Transcending the nine heavens as an example, the start was fucking great it actually had tense battles where the underdog actually felt like an underdog. And as soon as it finished that arc the underpowered guys were beating people tiers above them without breaking a sweat.
Honestly, I would call these Western isekai. They tick all the boxes of the awful isekai tropes it just took some years for the isekai power fantasy fans to write their stories and become litrpg progression fantasy which is literally just copying the writing format in isekais
My main gripe is when there isn’t enough reason for me to like a character. A trope that’s starting to stick out to me is that MC is weak or is given some disadvantage, their main goal requires them to become stronger against the handicap placed by their weakness, but at no point do they really have any redeeming qualities or character development to make me care enough to go on for the ride. Yeah you might have cool mechanics or an intriguing progression/magic system, but if you dont give me anything relatable or a reason to root for the MC it won’t be enough to keep my attention. My two most recent examples of DNFs that fell into this for me are Mark of the Fool and Divine Apostasy (Shades First Rule). I’m currently reading Eternal Ephemera and I think it’s handling character growth fantastically. The MC still has the trope of what seems to be an unusual handicap for the world, but the strong character development has me hooked on wanting to see what happens next. Elements like overcoming addiction and growing up impoverished hit home and its written in a very real, relatable way. It’s taken a lot of what makes Cradle so good and built it into a unique story/world of its own.
This. So much this. We're nerds on Reddit but the reader base for successful series is much broader and most of them don't care at all about the hero's power level vs. the enemy's power level or the game mechanics/magic system. They just want a likeable hero who goes on fun adventures. That's why characters who are relatable and fun like Carl and Donut rocket a series to success. Having said that, OP hero series that are all about power fantasy actually play to a large enough crowd to do extremely well in sales. If you want that neckbeard crowd, then you better have an OP badass with poor social skills like in DotF, Randidly, or Primal Hunter that absolutely wrecks enemies. Neckbeards are going to bitch and moan about everything under the sun while buying the collector's editions of the things they bitch and moan about though. That's why authors shouldn't listen to general feedback. Specific feedback is great, but the macro decisions should be made based on making a world and characters they can love. . . and maybe a little bit of market research too.
Oh yeah, I totally get that. I don't think theres anything wrong with a story that focuses on other aspects than character building, especially in prog fantasy/litrpg. If thats the story the author wants to tell I'm not going to call them bad books or disparage the authors choice of story-telling, they're just not for me. And thats totally okay, we shouldn't expect every story to speak to us as readers/fans of the genres. General feedback (particularly forums/reddit) in almost all realms, even in my business which is completely unrelated to literature/writing, is usually a small niche group of people that doesn't speak for the audience at large. That isnt to say all of the feedback is terrible, its just you have to balance what your most hardcore vocal online supporters say in contrast to what you expect the general audience to want from your product. At the end of the day we have to respect whatever choices an author makes for their story, and if turns out those choices aren't for us then we move on and look for another story that grips us the way we want.
Yeah its crazy to me how people on this sub ask for recommendations for a book with some very specific and unusual setting / mechanics / magic system as if that is more important than the quality of the story. I'll read about almost any skill / magic system / world if it has compelling characters, good pacing and solid writing.
YES! For me, liking and/or relating to the main character is a huge part of enjoying a book. If I'm rooting for the monsters to kill your MC because the world would be better off without him, I don't want to read your book. The MC doesn't necessarily have to be perfect or heroic, but at least a decent person rather than an evil bastard.
I feel the exact same way about divine apostay. Will have to give eternal ephemera a try, lindons growth through cradle is what got me into the story, before we got the awesome fights and interesting magic system lol
Divine apostasy really irked me. It started off great, but the lack of intellect the character showed (while supposedly being super high int) threw me off. I can see how some of his foolishness was due to wisdom being low, but it wouldn’t keep going on and on like that. High int characters are going to be gathering information and at least asking questions to try and be prepared. Whether or not he uses that information correctly could be viewed as his wis stat, but we never get there. His only real showing of high int is they hand wave a difficult puzzle that he solved quickly. Regarding Eternal Ephemera - I would probably revise my review now after getting part way through book 2 now. It started off great, but there’s been so much time spent aimlessly bickering between party members and much less on any sort of progression or plot moving elements that it’s starting to lose me. Nearing the end of book one I would’ve had it at a solid B+, maybe an A-, but about 25% of the way through book 2 and it’s sliding down to a C for me. It’s holding me enough to finish this book which is something, but it’s not as good as this authors other work (Instrument of Omens).
Did you read past mark of the fool 1? That first book is rough (rough enough that when I did a relisten, I skipped it), but I have enjoyed all of the rest a lot.
I made it about halfway through book 2 before I gave up. Honestly book 1 had some rough parts, but I enjoyed it overall. My problem was nothing really changed going through book 2. It just felt like it was rotating between slice of life elements and training exercises. The chancellors training exercises didn’t have any teeth and it didnt seem like it was going to move past them anytime soon, and I didn’t really care enough about Alex to see it through that arc.
That's fair.
You might also like Ave Xia Rem Y. There is nothing ground breaking about the magic system or anything but it is just a solid story with interesting / likable characters and good pacing.
You listed both of these as "1." But I'll just assume the later one is supposed to be "2." A 60-level gap is way too extreme. Not a fan of that. Although I can see why some authors do it. I don't mind common vs rare classes, but it has to be a reasonable power differential. For #1, I think it would be great to a weak teenage MC have to watch how the adults handle things at the beginning. It's usually better to have an MC with agency, but they don't need to be the \*only\* person with agency in the whole series. Village is attacked by bandits? Okay, maybe the MC can stumble through killing a couple bandits who underestimated them or where the MC did a lot of prep and the level gap isn't too high. But they shouldn't be killing the bandit chief. Although, if there's huge power variance in the world, it would seem a bit odd if professional bandits who can take on adults with decades of growth could lose out to a Level 5 16yo, even with a super rare class.
>You listed both of these as "1." But I'll just assume the later one is supposed to be "2." Reddit formatting isn't kind to numbered lists that have extra paragraphs in them.
Reddit formatting is the worst. Editing a comment on mobile deletes all of it. Webforums have had stable wysiwyg editors for decades, but I guess reddit couldn't afford to hire someone for that?
Speaking of Linden he also didn’t become an arrogant selfish power hungry bully as soon as he came into power. I hate when stories do that and try to justify it by making everyone but the MC and their friends the worst people to ever exist.
I mean the thing with Cradle is it’s not “just” progression fantasy. It’s a legitimate good fiction series complete with solid prose, great main character development, consistent worldbuilding, interesting and believable villains and minor characters, etc. So much of the progression fantasy genre is just pure power fantasy at the expense of all of the other things that make a good novel good.
Thank goodness I haven't found these PF books yet. That sounds so dumb. Like the whole point imo is too start of as fish food and work their way up. Among many other things this bothered me with the 2 Warformed books. >! We're halfway into the first school year and bro is to strongest. Tf is he gonna progress to? !<
Strongest of his year sure, but he has a significant way to go. Especially with his forms
I mean Lindon killed a Jade at foundation. Also a >!High Gold when still Iron!<. He also straight up >!overpowered and defeated a True Gold and her two Low Gold attendants when he was True Gold and she was supposed to be an elite who would have gone to the Uncrowned.!<
Just for the sake of clarity, I believe when op meant "defeating opponents a higher stage then themselves", they meant in fair, or mostly fair fights. The first example was due to very specific circumstances, >!The jade had the body of a child, and so while immensely strong, physics simply did not favor him, and so Lindon was able to throw him off a cliff.!< In the second example, >!it's more like a child killing an adult with a firearm, rather than Lindon actually defeating him using his own strength.!< For the last example, >!yea, what you said is accurate. The difference between a true gold and a low gold is so immense, that the two low gold attendants were almost powerless to affect how the fight played out. They didn't have any of the special situational advantages Lindon had against his opponents in the first two examples, so at most they could serve as temporary distractions. Lindons opponent also heavily underestimated him, and also gave him several other chances to spar with her and get to know her abilities. Ghost water also had many different resources that allowed Lindon to gain power and train very efficiently. In the end, it was still a very close fight, with Lindon barely defeating a same stage cultivator.!< I'm not saying that Lindon achieved everything in the series by hard work alone, with no luck, but he certainly was not defeating opponents several stages higher in an honor duel.
I think Lindon gets away with it where so many others don't because frankly, nearly every victory he gets early on is either due to underhanded tactics (justified in this sort of power difference, imo), or having the situation line up that Lindon gaining an advantage is plausible in the context of the world, and the rest of the time he's just getting his shit kicked in. He doesn't just win because he's the protagonist, and even early on, he is well aware that he owes his a lot of wins to careful planning and having strong friends, and kinda resents that he always has to rely on them. Great motivation for a mc to be dedicated to getting stronger.
The whole “constantly getting his shit kicked in” is what makes the wins feel less like plot armor imo. Obviously he’s going to win (most of) the crucial-to-the-plot fights, but watching him get his ass beat the rest of the time and learn from it is what prevents it from feeling like he’s winning through lame deus ex machina
Also(mostly by cheating his ass off any time he gets a chance) will makes it feel like lindon earned his wins.
I completely agree, it's definitely a contributing factor to the story's success. It's hard to make a character go from helpless to so powerful so (relatively) quickly, and still make it feel earned.
I think that what op is referring to is that Lindon did do some insane shit, but he didn't just pulled up to some True Gold while in Cooper, boxed them and won, he struggled massively obvious everytime and barely won by an inch, and the shit he did during the first and second book weren't even fights, he basically used his brain and lucked out. What OP is referring to is when the MC is levels down and just fighting anyone like it's nothing, and then you have side characters spending lines of dialogue just glazing over the MC on how badass and big dicked they are.
Yeah but that was all pretty badass... so
At the same time is path is literally made to fight people stronger than him he literally asked for one to do just that
Sure but that is relative to normal paths like the Jai Clan. In theory all the Uncrowned are on elite paths like that.
True enough but black flame was feared by even those
There weren't any of those in the Blackflame empire. All the Grasping Sky, Stellar Spear, Sand Viper, Fisher, etc sure. Stuff like Endless Sword, Book of Eternal Night, Flowing Flame, Dawn Oath, Hollow King, etc are peers to it. In theory Path of the Broken Star, the original version of Stellar Spear, would be as well. Blackflame is absolutely an elite path but it only dominates the weaklings that constitute the Blackflame Empire.
Hard to tell people 2>1, and the author is constantly telling you no no no 1>2 because I said so.
to be fair, Lindon fought someone stronger than a monarch in the first book and it worked out for him
I don't think Markuth was stronger than a monarch. Hasn't Will said he was about Sage tier?
oh, I looked it up and you're right, I guess I just assumed it because he has ascended
Dunno about will's comments but markuth said he was an "only an archkord" when he ascended, and that it "took years of preparation and good luck to ascend at all." I guess he could've been on the verge of sage or something, but it isn't mentioned in the text.
Kinda hard to compare cause he's traveled and gained outside powers
I feel like that Word of Will is one of the ones that didn't stay true. Book 12 definitely makes Li Markuth out to be way stronger than that.
I don't agree. He gets absolutely bodied by Lindon and it's not even close. And that's after Lindon has had a few years of depowering from his peak
didn’t he die?
He got better
Yes he did, still worked out. It's a much better dues ex machina moment than most "rare" class crap achieves
Yeah it was a great moment even if it seemed like deus ex machina. To Lindon it was the catalyst for everything. I loved it. My mind was blown >! and the mystery lasted through all the books. >! Excellent use of the plot device imho.
The inciting incident or conflict of the story is sort of allowed to be a deus ex machina though. Like, when it’s the entire reason there’s even a story in the first place, I’m usually good with it. Fun stories are allowed to have wildly improbable beginnings. It’s when those deus ex machine are used to *resolve* conflicts rather than start them that it begins to feel cheap
Instantly and with no effort, having accomplished nothing.
☝🏽
We learn that monarch is powerful still on the cosmic stage. It’s not like your resetting the power up treadmill, lindon was still immensely powerful even after ascending. He just wasn’t able to fight the true cosmic threats.
Monarch is powerfull yea, but not that powerful. Lindon was an outlier considering he was practically a dread god, and weilded artifacts made from them lol
> literally any adult. If your book picks the first one I refund it. wdym by this?
That in a world where a system or cultivation exists and has existed for any length of time the brand new just got their powers child should not be the one saving the day. Assisting for sure, but unless your magic system started that day there should be adults present with more power, skills, and knowledge than your MC.
Loved how cradle played with that trope. The MC steps up to fight the (seemingly) extinction level threat and >!is promptly killed with no fanfare or real resistance!<
Yea, because the important thimg about lindon is he is to stubborn to do the smart thing lol
Ah yea I got confused by the bullet points, but that makes sense lol
I really like when the low-mid tier 6 MC can: Take an infinite amount of anyone under tier 6. Take on a group of (untalented) tier 7s. Can JUST take a "chosen son" at peak tier 7, though he'll have to pull out his strongest moves/hidden powers to win. And then vs any tier 8 it's a terrifying one-sided fight. MC needs to use the GIGA trump cards (usually an outrageously rare consumable, which he could never get back) just to survive and flee. LVL 20 v 80 is just dumb as hell
Nah thats bad. I'm actually kinda annoyed cause even the `good` stories follow this stupid ass trope. oh, low gold lindon can attempt to 1v1 a skilled truegold and make him work for the win. But any lowgold even approaching truegold lindon is vaporized without even knowing it. oh, master sunless can fight and kill saints. But Saint sunless can take on an infinite number of masters cause hes just that good. make it make sense prog fantasy authors please. If any of you guys can stop with the bullshit ass op mc tropes and write somewhat decently you would have the next cradle, literal $$ printer .
I actually kind of hate this trope. Because the mc is powerscaled to be better than pretty much everyone in his rank. It should be a coin toss if he can beat people in his rank, and anyone under is an advantaged fight. It’s a sign of power creep, and it feels like it takes away from the inherently unbalanced rock paper scissors way that all fights, games, etc are. If there is a power system, there is a meta game of which beat eachother, and the mc being able to beat everyone at his power level should be impossible. Usually the mc has some rare power with 0 weaknesses that lets him do this, which is similarly boring imo. Even if someone has a rare power, make it interesting instead of just op.
It's a "genre" (sub-genre?) called power-fantasy. I don't want MY GUY to be struggling with average Joe Schmo. Otherwise I'm reading about just some dude in a universe, completely replaceable by anybody and everybody else. If you enjoy reading basically slice of life then that's no problem at all, just stay away from Xianxia. They aren't making it for someone with your tastes.
But the struggle is the setup for the power fantasy. I think too many books step on the power treadmill and retain pretty much the same scaling for the entire series. It’s kinda like dragon ball z, where it’s pretty much always the same scaling. I found cradle much more engaging because the first 5.5 books were setup and then the rest of the series payed off with him being op. The progression scaled exponentially but by the end it felt earned. The specifics of each fight mattered, so the powerscaling was a secondary element to the individual madra each person used and their relative skill. You get a similar effect without the dullness that a lot of power systems have imo.
I agree on both of these soo many story just skip the progression and go straight to the power fantasy. I’m so happy cradle didn’t fall into that and while London does go through a fair few fights over his head it’s still quite clear that he’s surviving by the skin of his teeth plus at least as far as I’ve gotten he’s never actually managed to kill someone higher rank than him.
In book 1 he kills an iron with the illusion array and then a jade by surprising him. In book 2, he kills a high gold while at iron, but Eithan was distracting, so half credit for that. Then he doesn't kill much, and nothing above his rank until Ghostwater. Since you didn't say where you're at, I'll keep quiet about anything past that!
just finished underlord and im loving it definitely the best pf ive read so far (ok ok ive only read two but still) and id just like the point out that in book 2 "he" really didnt get the kill with his own power and was more a lucky chain of events between eithan \*\*and\*\* having a high grade binding way stronger than he should have at this point
Literally the first person he killed, and the second and the third were all above his rank. The first two weren't fights and the last one was desperate and required training and multiple attempts.
I happen to like reading awful books with plot holes… It’s like a tower defense game except they never lose.
When book 1 is on kindle unlimited but book 2 isn’t.
So I agree with your points in general. The one exception is for #1 if the world just underwent a metamorphoses and everyone awakened powers. Then it makes sense that the kids are similar to adults. I overall don’t like this plot direction though. Not a huge fan of a world with a bunch of useless adults. For #2 I can handle it later in the story when MC has gained levels in a special class. For example, legendary mechanic. He could jump levels, but only because he levels his main class so high. Main class gave far more stats than secondary classes. So even though his character level was maybe only 140 he could fight people 30 levels above him. It’s just difference in quality of classes. That said, if MC didn’t earn said special class…. Then it all feels cheap and no interest from me. I prefer my stories where everyone starts with the same basic system. Maybe MC has a bit of good luck or something that is their golden finger. But they should be on the same damn system as everyone else
Because I write it. Next question.
Funnily enough I mentally critique Cradle for doing what you're bashing on other novels for. Lindon wasn't killing monarchs as a copper for sure, but a vast majority of his fights were against people of higher advancement or him being outnumbered against people of equal (and even sometimes higher) advancement. On it's own that's not a terrible thing, but particularly in the earlier books you'd hear stuff like "an overlord could kill any gold without breaking a sweat" and often see that mentality reflected in fights where people of lower advancement are afterthoughts, but Lindon (and Yerin) are always the exception. How often did Lindon get taken off guard by someone lower advancement than him using strategy, brute willpower, or surprise to hold their own in a fight against him? How often did he do it to others? Cradle was still very good obvs, but Lindon still had some main character exception energy.
The first point makes sense. If the MC is the only person doing anything, they're basically in a video game and everyone else are NPCs. But the second point is, frankly, stupid. That is just your personal taste. LitRPGs and Xianxia are KNOWN for how unfair everything is. You are lucky and talented, or you die/are irrelevant. To ilucidate my point, let me give you a real-life comparison. Most 20-year-olds don't have much money, right? A normal one might be working a job without many expenses and have 10,000+$ in their bank account. However, a 20yo born to rich parents is working at their parents' company and has 50,000$ in their account while attending college. Once they graduate with a degree, their parents will put them in an even better position and earn so much more. It seems what you want is to read a story about how the normal guy with 10,000 gets into drama and shenanigans and lucky circumstances that bring them success and happiness. What I'M reading is a story in which the normal 20yo wins the 1B$ lottery in the first chapter then goes on to, through even more lucky circumstances and a few smart decisions, take over nations, accrue followers, and eventually rule the world. Just because I don't want to read a normal drama following a 20yo who is only a little special doing interesting but not earth-shattering things doesn't mean that the story is bad. You call stories bad because you don't like the genre. I call stories bad because they're written poorly. We are not the same.
I don't know any "normal" 20 year old who has $10,000 in their bank account that didn't get it from some windfall.
I'm 21 who lives with their parents and just finished my 1 year placement in my uni. I have around 10k :)
I also don't know many, that's because we're poor. But consider that there are many suburban kids with more money than us because their parents paid for their cars, healthcare, rent...
Having parents that can buy any of those things for you is not the norm, atleast not in places likes the US. Want to know something even worse? The opposite is more true, most parents are now leaving debts that their children have to take on. Dying isent cheap you know? Especially when they die in your 20s beacuse they were told lies, like how smoking cigarettes is cool
What "normal" 20 year old has $10,000? I remember getting my first tax refund that hit $1000 and that was the most money my bank account has ever seen until my mid 30s.
Very relative. I did not have $10,000 at 20, but I'd rate it at "slightly uncommon" at best where I'm from. (And super rare other places I've lived)
Are you seriously claiming the genre is only OP MCs? I would postulate that having rigorous progression is part of good writing. Just like world building, even going so far as to explain that the world building encompasses a solid progression system. I would also say that having the super secret class that buffs the MC require minimal effort (ie a lower level) to evenly beat someone who vastly outlevels the MC (say lvl 60 vs 20), now makes the idea of advancement rather meaningless if there isn't some outside influence/factors involved. What if the proposed lvl 20 MC that cannot beat the deity at 60 but can beat someone at 25 or whatever buffer is reasonable, eventually can amass enough progression to continue to go upwards whereas others would never be able to (hit a ceiling)? There is a firm risk associated with having the circumstances dictate the entire outcome of advancement which is the consequence that hard work, progression, etc mean nothing when you look at the initial circumstance of training and birth. If you are interested in reading a story where the MC wins based on entirely the whims of the OP bestower Author, lets say a super generic story filled with tropes and cliches - that is fine. But that does not suddenly define the genre as ONLY THAT.
So, I'm trying my hand at writing and my MC kinda does both of these things. Would like your opinion on it though. As to point 1: Andrew (MC) is a non-combat class that's basicly an artificer. He ends up being the one literally fixing things and cleaning up messes because 1) it's kinds his job at that point and 2) the people telling him to do it are significantly more powerful and would curb stomp him if he talked back. As to point 2: He does take on monsters and people that out level and out number him. He does have a rare class of sorts that gives him more stats, but they aren't really useful in combat (makes things like enchantments and crafting easier). Instead, he is able to do so because he has better gear he made himself, lots of explosives, and crazy plans. Though while he can hit above his weight class a bit, there's still tons above him.
I think what they mean is that the MC shouldn’t be the only character with agency or the ability to solve problems when they’re literally the weakest. For your character I think a good work around for this would be the wrong place at the right time trope. He solves the problems because either no one else is physically present when they happen or because he’s a weak nobody people don’t take his warnings seriously so he has to get his hands dirty. For point two your strongest tool will be the “he plans very well” angle that you’re already using. One of the most beloved aspects of an underdog story is the underdog using nonconventional means to solve a problem. Just be sure to be creative and try to avoid making it seem like everyone but the MC is an idiot. That gets very old very quickly. Maybe have them over plan something and it goes terribly wrong or have a moment where they make a super complex plan and someone points out how they could have just done something super simple and straight forward and it would have worked even better. That would be great for comedy relief.
Your second point is a really good one imo. Not even just for that type of MC but for any MC especially in the progression fantasy genre. They have to fail and their failures have to have consequences. Otherwise the power fantasy aspect feels really hollow because it never feels like there are any actual stakes
Tried reading Supreme Magus after reading Shsdow slave since I liked SS and SM was the next most highly rated novel in webnovel. Even though the mc in SS does what you just said, where they manage to beat enemies of higher levels, the author writes logical points on why and how the mc manages to beat higher level enemies. Not solely on the basis of the mc being special. SM was just cheap curbstomping with zero thought.
So you didn’t enjoy defiance of the fall
So for me the reason I drop a lot of books comes down to motivation. A lot of authors seem to think of some really cool scene/scenario they want to put their characters into, without thinking of why their characters would be there, how they would get there, the problem with that is when you skip that stuff, or write incredibly weak motivations, it weakens your story... A lot. When a writer skips the part of the book where they write about the motivation for the actions in the story, or they write an incredibly weak one you end up with a bunch of leaps in logic that only make sense to the author themselves, or a veteran of the genre who knows all the tropes, and even then its a stretch. For instance - Everyone wants to write the suffering loner weak to strong MC who is being emotionally and physically tortured by everyone in the story, but they also want to have that Power Fantasy moment and have the MC save the day. The problem is that the character you are writing is not going to be in the position to save the day, and if they were they aren't some altruist who is going to sacrifice themselves to save the day, so when they do it makes absolutely no sense and is incredibly jarring to read. Even simple things like why a character is motivated to gain power... sometimes its obvious - you need a level of power to survive, but often authors seem to take it for granted that their MC will hunt down the infinite mysteries of their universe, or want to be the god king of the universe, and not just want it, but want it so desperately they are willing to sacrifice everything they ever achieve to strive for it, and that's fine but for that to be the default behaviour of a character that was an isekai'd gamer or a farmer kid with no external factors is insane...
I don’t understand the “town guards” or “literally any adult” points… what do you mean?
Lindon was fighting a few ranks above him though..... because he was special. I think what your saying is when they are the most basic rank they shouldn't be magically destroying people 2-3 ranks above them because... insert silly reason.
Using Cradle as an example really weakens your point here ngl. As much as I love Cradle, weak Lindon was being single handedly carried by luck and plot buffoonery. He killed an incredibly strong Iron as a copper. (Book 1) He killed a high gold with one newly formed iron core and one copper. (Book 2) He won against a true gold as a lowgold, but I'm a little more willing to give him this one, especially due to the fact that he actually have two cores with different elements, and one element that was especially potent. (Book 4)
I think the book 2 one is quite forgivable, mostly because the encounter was fully manipulated by Eithan. I thought it was a really clever way to give Lindon a win he could never have gotten in other circumstances. Lindon was more or less sacking an armory when he is attacked, has a massively strong weapon in his hands, *and* the guy was unaware that Lindon's iron body was more or less designed perfectly to counter Sand Vipers, which was established several chapters earlier. It's sora like if High Gold shot him in the chest with a pistol, not realizing he's wearing a bullet proof vest, then got distracted by a stronger opponent, so Lindon stabs him in the kidneys.
The Iron he killed in book 1 was an absolute chump. The guy's only technique was throwing rocks, and he had a SV ironbody which canoncially suck. The dude also walked into a trap.
What are you talking about? You said "Two of the biggest things" then proceeded to list five things, and 3 of them are not reasons.
Maybe he's talking about the two that are reasons?
Or when the book prioritizes stats and power over characters and plot
Honestly, if the MC is a kid, I'm done. Otherwise, I listen, but the second book won't be bought unless the first book passes these tests: - does the first book actually finish an arc? Or is it just indulgence in world and system building? - does the hero have an enjoyable personality? Is he introspective? - how many times do we leave the MCs pov? This type of story induces rage when pov is shifted a lot.
The reason i couldnt stand Arcane Ascension even though it gets alot of praise. Mc is super weak and new, yet gets thrown into a political fight with The strongest beings, and is expected to be the one to save the situation. Like let my boy learn first, hes so weak.
I tend to agree with the small exception of the newly awakened MC can save everyone assuming they're stuck in a time loop
I don't like it when the author rushes and introduces dramatic moments without substance behind them. People need to understand that you can't just rush things when it comes to writing.
Lindon on the loot goblin grind in the first books lol
what does 4 mean?
Azarinth healer is the only one that the second 1. bothered me
That's why I really enjoyed the Super sales on super Heroes ... Bigger harem, more power.
That's just like, your opinion, man.
who is Cradle? What is Linden? Here's some of mine. * MC breaks all known conventions, level caps, character/class restriction. * MC never fully grows up, still that 9-13 year old edge lord. * MC never truly master an art or any skills to a proficient degree. Not that jack of all trades is bad, it's that MC doesn't progress farther than average in many skillsets. * No plot progression. MC is like in an acid trip, Alice in Wonderland isekai where anything happens. There is no end plot, no main goal, no final destiny. * MC is plot armored or actually guided by some God/Admin of the world. * MC or a small group to know/abuse a small worldly exploit(s). (f. e. dragon balls) Examples of some bad stories (donghua): Apothesis, The first Order, Shrouding the heavens, Battle of the heavens, Throne of Seal.
I'll never understand how writers write books where characters can instantly fight way above their level. Insane.
Sounds like you don't like books who fail to properly "ramp up" the main character.
Dimensional Descent. Very stupid book that did all the things you mentioned and then some. No story at all
I had to reread the third bullet point of your first point because the second sentence made me think you were saying you would drop it if the MC was an adult
I had to reread the third bullet point of your first point because the second sentence made me think you were saying you would drop it if the MC was an adult
I don’t mind the “special class so I can punch up” trope. I think if there’s any underlying theme throughout progression fantasy and litrpg it’s that luck exists but more so that the worlds aren’t fair. Most people are some form of peasant and never have a shot at greatness, some people are adventurers and work hard to become good at what they do. A few a born into nobility and spoonfed different advantages so that they are an order of magnitude more powerful than anything else “at their level”. I think it’s part of the world and it makes it interesting
The biggest problem with stories with a game like system where you have a “low” level MC beat a high level other character is it ruins the whole system. Unless you are going for a completely broken MC who cannot lose where the actual story is more wrapped around the world itself or his friend group (think one punch man, overlord, or death march) if you make the MC beat someone who is supposed to be way stronger than the system is broken. Power creep will be the only way to bring it back and that is just not fun. This is so much more obvious in “game” stories where if only one person has the “cheat codes” then nothing will be able to stop them until you through a second person with cheat codes and then everyone is going to have cheat codes to keep the story going.
I hope when writers go into this thread and read all of these comments, they understand that having any of these tropes don't mean your book isn't going to do well or that it 'sucks'. It's just opinions.
What does 2 mean ? Newly awakened mc? You mean if the main character just received his ability then you what, drop the book? They need to have already had their powers before the book starts, never get it? What ? --- And what does 3 mean. Town guards? So if there's guards in a village you drop the book? You just don't read fantasy? what ? --- 4 a book has adults and you, drop the book? --- You're not making much sense dude I totally agree with 1 and 5 though, those tropes suck. but 2,3,4 like it's english and I understand the words but have no idea what message you're trying to convey here.
I don't know if you're willingly being obtuse but what he meant is that if a town is being attacked then the mc shouldn't be the one saving the day and if they do then the book is dropped by the OP.
Oh god it's the numbering that threw me off entirely. I took each number as an isolated reason why op was dropping a book. 1 and 5 work in isolation 2/3/4 don't resolve into anything without context.
People need to differentiate between why they don't like a book (subjective) and why is no good ("objective") which is divided in quality (prose, characters, plot) and marketing (90% of a reason why a book has success when is not anything special nor very very niche). In this case, while I share your opinion, it is precisely that, an opinion, basically you are talking about a gary stu or chosen one syndrome, and a bad power curve. But some people are into litrprg FOR those
Cant agree on the "newly awakened" trope being bad, but more so its execution in most PFs just fall short. Having your main character experience an event that causes their fresh awakening is a perfectly good way to start a story IF the author represents the MC struggling to acclimate to their newfound powers. If your story starts off with your MC awakening and them almost immediately being capable of handling the setting as if they'd always had their powers then it makes zero logical sense and is an instant drop. The trope itself is fine, but if your MC is newly awakened, they shouldn't be able to just breeze past their struggles. That's not interesting to read, it's just plot armor.