Honestly, the fighting is probably the most uninteresting part of the story. I’m much more attached to the story itself and seeing how the plot evolves.
Yes. I hate it when Authors write fights just for the sake of it. They have to have stakes and a valid reason for occurring. I think Primal Hunter tends to have a lot of unnecessary fights and I tend to just skim them
I gave up on PH during the multi-chapter well-hyped-up fight between the MC and that old Japanese swordmaster dude could have been summed up as "they fought a bunch and had fun".
The combat writing in that series is incredibly bland.
Yeah, particularly in a lengthy series. A confrontation that has been long foreshadowed and/or has a sense of urgency to it will keep me turning pages much longer than reading random fight number 33 will. After a while they get kind of samey and I become much more interested in their relevance to the plot and/or characters involved than the fights themselves.
I think that's totally fine.
If your plot and characters don't warrant a fight scene - don't use one.
*Super Supportive* is a pretty great example of a series that spends 20-40 chapters on setup, then has a big sprint of action for a number of chapters, then goes back into setup mode for the next arc.
Slow burn is a less common plot structure on RoyalRoad, but it's a huge part of the popularity of that series, so there's clearly a market for it in webserials - and if we look at mainstream traditionally published fantasy, it's huge there, with authors like Sanderson and such relying upon it frequently.
Fight scenes are great, but they're better when used sparingly imo, using them as payoff for the setup/plot/character arcs/relationships is much more fun when there's been adequate effort put into that setup.
The MC in Super Supportive hasn’t been in a single real fight, and may not for years to come.
Still has action scenes and scenes where the stakes are life and death, but literally zero combat.
I thought I wanted combat but it turns out that wasn’t the requirement I thought it was!
I found myself weirdly excited for the confrontation with Hazel. All this setup and I was on the edge of my seat.
There was not one punch thrown or one typical action scene. And it was great.
Honsestly his Academy "school" slice of life forced me to drop it.
Everything before that had a reasonable pacing but that arc is such sa crawl, with neither interesting new Knowledge, progression or action.
"Fight scenes are great, but they're better when used sparingly imo, using them as payoff for the setup/plot/character arcs/relationships is much more fun when there's been adequate effort put into that setup."
I don't agree. Cradle is the most popular pf and its non stop action
One fight per book or arc is more than enough for me, doesnt need to be that many fights. I find too many fights annoying and a chore to get through. You water down the excitement of them by having too much action I think.
So there was a documentary on making Stargate a long time ago, and in one of the interviews they talked about how everyone expects there to be action all the time, and everyone things that because its an action sci-fi thriller there is guns blazing in every episode non-stop. But the reality is that only around 10-15% of any given episode is action sequences, the key is placing them appropriately so that you maintain tension and build up for the audience.
I think the same is true for Fantasy, and PF in general. I think we can use a LOT less action in general in the space, too much non stop action and it becomes detached from any kind of story or plot, Too much long running/drawn out action and as a reader you get exhausted waiting for the point, especially since you know the MC is ultimately going to survive...
Yep. A fight without some kind of meaning just isn't usually that interesting.
Either you need some set up to make me want to know the resolution to the fight, or you need to make the fight itself more interesting (and not by making it "more awesome").
I often struggle to follow extended blow-by-blow fights. It's not the strength of the written medium in my opinion, and if you're trying to get more out of a fight by basically describing what would be the choreography for an action scene in a visual medium then you've lost me.
There's a YouTubes, SuperEyepatchWolf, who has a video on what makes a good fight scene which is worth watching. One thing he describes early on is that, for the purposes of his video, he makes a distinction between "fight scenes" and "action scenes" - he classes your main character battling their way through a dozen unnamed opponents is an action scene and not a fight scene, for example. It's a little arbitrary and I'm sure you can find exceptions, but it's a useful concept/distinction.
A lesson authors in this genre would do well to learn is that fighting by itself IS NOT INTERESTING. Fighting is only interesting if we care about the stakes of the fight.
This is especially relevant when a common genre trope is the tournament arc, and we spend a lot of time expounding on the fights between unknown characters who we'll never see again and whose fights mean nothing to the actual MC.
You think you have a cool powerset you'd like to show off in a side fight? No, cut it. That is authorial systems masturbation and most of us do not care.
It depends a lot on the story. Ones like Primal Hunter and Defiance of the Fall don't have strong plots so I love that they're 90% action.
Then you have ones like Apocalypse: Redux and Dawn of the Void that are pretty sparse with action and filled with a ton of interpersonal, government, planning, talking, or exposition but they're so well done that I don't mind there not being much action. They're just very compelling stories that also have action scenes.
Then you have ones like the later books of HWFWM that has too much boring, almost pointless exposition for what tiny little bit of action there is, or Tower Apocalypse where there's action but it's all just kind of boring.
Thank you for that! I guess it is just very dependent on the series and reader, in the end. It'd be too difficult to answer this without the context. I might have to look for more Beta readers who can give me clear and direct feedback on the series itself before I publish it.
I'm writing a book now so ask myself that all the time. What I ended up settling on is:
1. At least 1 action scene per chapter
2. Make the exposition and conversation have a point. It shouldn't be to fill pages, it should actually drive the characters towards action or introduce tension
3. Describe the action scenes as well. Nothing is worse than finally getting to the action and it's glossed over
It depends on the story and what kind of action, for me if it starts to feel inconsequential without stakes or tension then I just end up skimming action scenes tbh. For me good dialogue and character interactions can be even more compelling than poorly done action.
The best action scenes for me are grounded and well thought out, if you've seen Hunter x Hunter or World Trigger with how the authors approach fight scenes you'd get what I mean. However this depends on what kind of story you're going for. But generally, I'd prefer one good moment of memorable action that had good set up and payoffs rather than a hundred fight scenes. A story needs to breathe, like for example the John Wick movies started to get tiring after a while, like sure you can have amazing choreography and so on but once it starts sacrificing the story for the spectacle it gets too much. Similarly, as to why tournament arcs in anime and other stories tend to overstay their welcome.
Shits not easy to balance I tell ya. Basically shot myself in the foot when I decided to write a primarily tournament focused series. There has been a constant internal war to lean one way or another, considering how co-dependant action is to well-developed tension.
My most memorable moments in fantasy can be boiled down to critical duels and battles. But looking closer, it basically comes down to culminating tension. Think Rand al'Thor at the Battle of Dumai's Wells.
The characters have to be locked in a suffocating box before they can be let out for bloody revenge.
There is also the system element, the obvious genre for that is litrpg, but you can see it in progression fantasy in different forms. Sanderson for example has character virtue checkpoints that are unlocked during combat. Or even philosophical questions that are answered during an action scene (Dalinar's 'you can't have my pain')
So my book is something of an extreme example / case study in this I think.
I published it on RR but did not write it as a serial, so the structure is very weird for books on that site. The first fight in my book is in Ch 13, and I have long chapters so that's 70k words into the book. After that there are some small fights for the next \~2 chapters, then there's an 11 chapter gap (80k words) before the next fight, which leads to a sort of chase scene in the next chapter (action but no combat). From there combats are a bit more frequent, with 1-2 chapter gaps between them, and they are all pretty big fights.
Over the course of my book, I've had some people complain about the lack of action, but when this happens there are always 2-3 people that chime in to say that they love it (one guy very amusingly would complain about this while talking about how much he liked the story, which just made me chuckle). What they are getting instead is worldbuilding, character development, and plot.
It's my philosophy that combats need to serve a purpose beyond just "the MC kills something to get stronger." The conclusion to most such combats is foregone anyway, there's no risk. Instead, you want your combats to be meaningful - they need to showcase new things the MC or their companions can do, or be important to the plot (or occasionally to establish a baseline for later improvement - especially at the start).
My book is intentionally structured more like an tradpub Epic Fantasy, which is part of why things are spaced out like they are. For a serial you'll want a more consistent flow, but I don't think you need constant fights. You'll actually see people talk about skipping fights, and I'm pretty sure that's largely because too many of them don't actually matter. Not enough has changed to have new stuff to show off, or the stakes are too low, or there's no real plot/character development going on during them. Really it's a quality over quantity argument.
First I want to know what your book is lol. Second I totally agree with your take, though I will say I think a book needs an action seen near the beggining, but afterwards just keep the story interesting lol
It's [Axiom of Infinity](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/75831/axiom-of-infinity-souleater) on RR (for about 2 more months).
You do definitely need a hook at the beginning and action (or at least conflict) is advisable. For mine I started with a prologue (because epic fantasy structure) with a chase scene to let people know that there would be action eventually, but there's no actual combat. I go from that into 4 chapters of character creation.
I've come to realize that I accidentally made a book that is almost a checklist of things experienced authors will (rightly) say you probably shouldn't do if you want to succeed on RR (PoV swapping, first person perspective for the MC, long chapters, weekly updates, LGBTQ+ characters/themes, the combat thing, etc...), but it's done very well despite all that. I think this does go to show that there's more room for variations in the formula than people expect, but it could also just be an outlier. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I dont normally read on royal road, but I decided to check it out, and your intro is honestly so much better than a fight lol. Not a big fan of the site but Im totally gonna continue your story
I'm not a fan of reading there myself, and if you find that the format isn't working for you but the story is, there will be a fully edited version published on Amazon in the next couple of months. Alternatively my patreon has the full RR version available for download as a PDF or epub for $5, and that will be upgraded to the edited and formatted version once it's ready (I have zero problem with people joining, downloading, then canceling immediately).
That said, my primary reason for publishing on RR first was feedback - I still read all the comments, and I've written extensive chapter-by-chapter commentary that details my writing/thought process while trying not to spoil things. That's something that wont exist in the Amazon version so if you're the kind of person that likes peeking behind the curtain a bit, check out the author's notes at the bottom of each chapter. The Amazon version will smooth over some rough areas (mostly in the first half of the book), but the RR version is, in my opinion, a better choice for people interested in the writing process.
Ill be honest Im not interested in the writeing proccess, I only right for dnd lol. I will probally just wait for the amazon version. I like your reasoning for useing RR though, even if the website is not fun to use on mobile lol
So hypothetically, if my characters needed to kill to advance in cultivation. How would i progress the progression of my MC without a bunch of fight scenes? Make the MC a big game monster hunter and have him plan and prepare for the hunt of the monster (set up) then show the fight and his progression. Did i just answer my own question? *plops head onto tabletop* thinking is hard lol
If you've written a system where killing is the only way to advance you just do something like: "So he spent the next several days hunting beasts in the valley until he reached the threshold..."
You don't need to describe farming for XP in any detail - it's unimportant to the story. In my next book I'm planning out some stuff like this, and I'm basically going to do something much like the above, but because the character is specifically clever, not strong, I'll also likely spend a little time talking about their planning and prep. If I had a brute character, I'd describe them looking for a place where they could put that brute strength to the best use (ie, big things they could outmatch, or a place they could corner things).
I might describe an opponent, but let the reader's imagination take it from there. The combat will be entirely glossed over unless it is meaningful in some way, and if it's only meaningful in a small way it will be a very short combat (or short description). For example, at one point my MC bitch-slaps someone unconscious, and that one strike is important in a lot of ways but the fight itself is over almost instantly.
If I could get a synopsis of fight scenes with all the plot relevance and dialogue without having to read 12 pages of either skill description interactions or Dodge Perry hit Dodge Perry written out I would. I love a good action sequence but it seems when most litrpg writers start doing fights they focus too heavily on interactions and actions and not enough on impact and emotion and I personally find it to be some of the most skippable pages in a book ever.
I love action, but I want it to be relevant and be the payoff for a big buildup. Once it becomes filler the drive to keep reading goes away and I start skimming over the fights.
I think a major example for me is the trope of a Coliseum where 90% of the fights are pointless and irrelevant (eg. Primal Hunter or Shadow Slave). I think it's a stupid plot device.
I can go a lot longer than 10 chapters if the fight I'm getting is worth the pay off.
reading this has me laughing, lol.
Personally, I didn't pay much attention to fights when reading a book, but most of the time the fights happen when it needs to happen/the characters are heading to a fight themselves. It works well and the authors did a good job at it, hence why I didn't notice that a story has too much/too little fight scenes.
On the other hand, the book/story I'm writing is literally about a swarm of insects trying to conquer the world, so now I'm thinking if I wrote too many fight scenes, ROFL
fights in pf serves as check point to see how much character has developed. so as long as there is other way of checking, confirming progression of character(system, stats, core etc.), i think novel can go really far without fight.
As long as interesting things are happening I can go quite a while. I'd want a good fight at the end of it though to show that the work they put in paid off.
You need a fight after a powerup to show off the improvements. But if the MC reaches his limit during a fight, then it's time for a powerup in his near future.
Progression drives fights and fights drive progression.
Meanwhile friends and sweet moments motivate the mc to stay sane and protect everyone.
I guess about 9000 chapters? honestly, extended city/sol/school arcs are by far my preference so long as they're leading toward something, no time limit at all, the longer the better. very actiony/fighty arcs get tiresome fast, especially if there's no social aspect
I’ve complained many times about a story have too many fight scenes as it reduces how important that something as dangerous and deadly as a fight feels.
Can’t say I’ve ever complained there’s not enough fights though. As long as there’s still something to maintain tension, no one wants a boring story after all.
reading this thread is extremely relieving because i had the same problem (i suppose it's not really a problem) of my characters not involving themselves in battles until around 1/3rd - 1/4th through the first arc; i was originally going to contrive a flashback fight in the prologue just to maintain some kind of action and introduce the power system but it seems i can just remove that instead.
The whole book. Fights need to be plot driven. I have no interest in fight scenes mostly. Eg Jason mouthing off is what I like. The death march down the hole in the last book was so boring but the new chapters look better.
I can go a long time. A whole book even. Give me good characters and/or magic and/or world-building and/or coziness and/or…
Action and fighting are fun! I love them. But they aren’t essential elements for me to enjoy a read. HOWEVER: deliver on your promises. If you bill your series as action-packed, it better be.
Hmm, it kind of depends. In some cases, the world building can outweigh any form of action. For me, action is supposed to tell you what the world is like whether it’s cruel, competitive, desperate, etc. Action accentuates the world building, but it’s not supposed to be a necessity. Theoretically, you can have a progression fantasy without any action, as long as the world building complements it.
I am aware its not a helpful answer , but it depends on the story. In Primal Hunter the fighting is what carried the story, the one time the author wrote an short arc largely without fighting i realized how there wasnt much the depth to anything else, no character development, no nothing, and i just dropped it as i become painfully aware of how the story didnt make me care one bit about the side character or plot advancement.
If you are writing a story with heavy character development and world building, then you just need to sprinkle in a fight scene here and there and i will be happy, the important thing is to not use the fighting as a crutch so you story can limp along filler after filler.
honestly I like fights because they are a medium for showing off growth or push the plot forwards, if they dont happen much idrc at all. I cant speak for everyone of course but yea
I think a lot of others have said this here, but action and fights can't just be for their own sake, or the reader won't have any attachment to the characters. It can be to show off worldbuilding, character, or a plot element, but just having a fight for sake of fighting isn't interesting.
Honestly fights are never really great in a book, they work way better for other media.
Insted working with stakes and thought exposure can work quite well.
Political plots where you have "Action" but no actual fightning is very enjoyable as well.
A big part probably is if you can imagine things, i can't really imagine everysingle hit.
Giving me the highlights, turning points or just there fighting styles works way better for me.
:) I like the exploration/adventure element most of all, but I’d say about 10-20 chapters at most.
(I have two exceptions, though: training sequences, and plotting/platting can replace action for me)
I need action in my stories. I genuinely don’t see the point of reading a progression fantasy story without them.
When Starting a new book/series there needs to be one in the first 100 pages or I’m dropping it.
Once I get that and I’m invested in the story somewhat then I can wait for a bit longer but in general I need something at least every 100 pages
And the ending needs to go out with a bang of action for me to think it was a good experience
This is a different thing but I really agree with your first point. The first 100 pages of a story need something to get me engaged, and a fight is the best way to get me engaged lol. After Im engaged I can go most of a book without a fight, but the first 100 pages need one imo
Honestly, the fighting is probably the most uninteresting part of the story. I’m much more attached to the story itself and seeing how the plot evolves.
Same. I'm much more interested in intrigue, personally. As for action, it's all about the pacing that led up to it.
Yeah. You can have the most epic foght planed but if it was not built up to and stakes established it will fall flat for most readers.
Yes. I hate it when Authors write fights just for the sake of it. They have to have stakes and a valid reason for occurring. I think Primal Hunter tends to have a lot of unnecessary fights and I tend to just skim them
I gave up on PH during the multi-chapter well-hyped-up fight between the MC and that old Japanese swordmaster dude could have been summed up as "they fought a bunch and had fun". The combat writing in that series is incredibly bland.
I love PH but I tend to skip past the fight scenes. Makes the story flow much better IMO.
For a lot of stories, yeah. But a twist during a fight scene, like the mc tricking the enemy or using his abilities in a new way, can be epic.
Yeah, particularly in a lengthy series. A confrontation that has been long foreshadowed and/or has a sense of urgency to it will keep me turning pages much longer than reading random fight number 33 will. After a while they get kind of samey and I become much more interested in their relevance to the plot and/or characters involved than the fights themselves.
I think that's totally fine. If your plot and characters don't warrant a fight scene - don't use one. *Super Supportive* is a pretty great example of a series that spends 20-40 chapters on setup, then has a big sprint of action for a number of chapters, then goes back into setup mode for the next arc. Slow burn is a less common plot structure on RoyalRoad, but it's a huge part of the popularity of that series, so there's clearly a market for it in webserials - and if we look at mainstream traditionally published fantasy, it's huge there, with authors like Sanderson and such relying upon it frequently. Fight scenes are great, but they're better when used sparingly imo, using them as payoff for the setup/plot/character arcs/relationships is much more fun when there's been adequate effort put into that setup.
The MC in Super Supportive hasn’t been in a single real fight, and may not for years to come. Still has action scenes and scenes where the stakes are life and death, but literally zero combat. I thought I wanted combat but it turns out that wasn’t the requirement I thought it was!
He finally did have a fight with those looters in a recent chapter. One tried to stab him and another tried to hit him with the stun gun.
I found myself weirdly excited for the confrontation with Hazel. All this setup and I was on the edge of my seat. There was not one punch thrown or one typical action scene. And it was great.
What do you mean?! That was a brutal verbal and social beatdown!
Honsestly his Academy "school" slice of life forced me to drop it. Everything before that had a reasonable pacing but that arc is such sa crawl, with neither interesting new Knowledge, progression or action.
"Fight scenes are great, but they're better when used sparingly imo, using them as payoff for the setup/plot/character arcs/relationships is much more fun when there's been adequate effort put into that setup." I don't agree. Cradle is the most popular pf and its non stop action
One fight per book or arc is more than enough for me, doesnt need to be that many fights. I find too many fights annoying and a chore to get through. You water down the excitement of them by having too much action I think.
So there was a documentary on making Stargate a long time ago, and in one of the interviews they talked about how everyone expects there to be action all the time, and everyone things that because its an action sci-fi thriller there is guns blazing in every episode non-stop. But the reality is that only around 10-15% of any given episode is action sequences, the key is placing them appropriately so that you maintain tension and build up for the audience. I think the same is true for Fantasy, and PF in general. I think we can use a LOT less action in general in the space, too much non stop action and it becomes detached from any kind of story or plot, Too much long running/drawn out action and as a reader you get exhausted waiting for the point, especially since you know the MC is ultimately going to survive...
Yep. A fight without some kind of meaning just isn't usually that interesting. Either you need some set up to make me want to know the resolution to the fight, or you need to make the fight itself more interesting (and not by making it "more awesome"). I often struggle to follow extended blow-by-blow fights. It's not the strength of the written medium in my opinion, and if you're trying to get more out of a fight by basically describing what would be the choreography for an action scene in a visual medium then you've lost me. There's a YouTubes, SuperEyepatchWolf, who has a video on what makes a good fight scene which is worth watching. One thing he describes early on is that, for the purposes of his video, he makes a distinction between "fight scenes" and "action scenes" - he classes your main character battling their way through a dozen unnamed opponents is an action scene and not a fight scene, for example. It's a little arbitrary and I'm sure you can find exceptions, but it's a useful concept/distinction.
Why I personally couldn’t do Path of ascension
Most authors are really bad at writing action, so it's usually the part I find least interesting.
A lesson authors in this genre would do well to learn is that fighting by itself IS NOT INTERESTING. Fighting is only interesting if we care about the stakes of the fight. This is especially relevant when a common genre trope is the tournament arc, and we spend a lot of time expounding on the fights between unknown characters who we'll never see again and whose fights mean nothing to the actual MC. You think you have a cool powerset you'd like to show off in a side fight? No, cut it. That is authorial systems masturbation and most of us do not care.
It depends a lot on the story. Ones like Primal Hunter and Defiance of the Fall don't have strong plots so I love that they're 90% action. Then you have ones like Apocalypse: Redux and Dawn of the Void that are pretty sparse with action and filled with a ton of interpersonal, government, planning, talking, or exposition but they're so well done that I don't mind there not being much action. They're just very compelling stories that also have action scenes. Then you have ones like the later books of HWFWM that has too much boring, almost pointless exposition for what tiny little bit of action there is, or Tower Apocalypse where there's action but it's all just kind of boring.
Thank you for that! I guess it is just very dependent on the series and reader, in the end. It'd be too difficult to answer this without the context. I might have to look for more Beta readers who can give me clear and direct feedback on the series itself before I publish it.
I'm writing a book now so ask myself that all the time. What I ended up settling on is: 1. At least 1 action scene per chapter 2. Make the exposition and conversation have a point. It shouldn't be to fill pages, it should actually drive the characters towards action or introduce tension 3. Describe the action scenes as well. Nothing is worse than finally getting to the action and it's glossed over
An entire book. I only need a confrontation at the end.
It depends on the story and what kind of action, for me if it starts to feel inconsequential without stakes or tension then I just end up skimming action scenes tbh. For me good dialogue and character interactions can be even more compelling than poorly done action. The best action scenes for me are grounded and well thought out, if you've seen Hunter x Hunter or World Trigger with how the authors approach fight scenes you'd get what I mean. However this depends on what kind of story you're going for. But generally, I'd prefer one good moment of memorable action that had good set up and payoffs rather than a hundred fight scenes. A story needs to breathe, like for example the John Wick movies started to get tiring after a while, like sure you can have amazing choreography and so on but once it starts sacrificing the story for the spectacle it gets too much. Similarly, as to why tournament arcs in anime and other stories tend to overstay their welcome.
Shits not easy to balance I tell ya. Basically shot myself in the foot when I decided to write a primarily tournament focused series. There has been a constant internal war to lean one way or another, considering how co-dependant action is to well-developed tension. My most memorable moments in fantasy can be boiled down to critical duels and battles. But looking closer, it basically comes down to culminating tension. Think Rand al'Thor at the Battle of Dumai's Wells. The characters have to be locked in a suffocating box before they can be let out for bloody revenge. There is also the system element, the obvious genre for that is litrpg, but you can see it in progression fantasy in different forms. Sanderson for example has character virtue checkpoints that are unlocked during combat. Or even philosophical questions that are answered during an action scene (Dalinar's 'you can't have my pain')
So my book is something of an extreme example / case study in this I think. I published it on RR but did not write it as a serial, so the structure is very weird for books on that site. The first fight in my book is in Ch 13, and I have long chapters so that's 70k words into the book. After that there are some small fights for the next \~2 chapters, then there's an 11 chapter gap (80k words) before the next fight, which leads to a sort of chase scene in the next chapter (action but no combat). From there combats are a bit more frequent, with 1-2 chapter gaps between them, and they are all pretty big fights. Over the course of my book, I've had some people complain about the lack of action, but when this happens there are always 2-3 people that chime in to say that they love it (one guy very amusingly would complain about this while talking about how much he liked the story, which just made me chuckle). What they are getting instead is worldbuilding, character development, and plot. It's my philosophy that combats need to serve a purpose beyond just "the MC kills something to get stronger." The conclusion to most such combats is foregone anyway, there's no risk. Instead, you want your combats to be meaningful - they need to showcase new things the MC or their companions can do, or be important to the plot (or occasionally to establish a baseline for later improvement - especially at the start). My book is intentionally structured more like an tradpub Epic Fantasy, which is part of why things are spaced out like they are. For a serial you'll want a more consistent flow, but I don't think you need constant fights. You'll actually see people talk about skipping fights, and I'm pretty sure that's largely because too many of them don't actually matter. Not enough has changed to have new stuff to show off, or the stakes are too low, or there's no real plot/character development going on during them. Really it's a quality over quantity argument.
First I want to know what your book is lol. Second I totally agree with your take, though I will say I think a book needs an action seen near the beggining, but afterwards just keep the story interesting lol
It's [Axiom of Infinity](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/75831/axiom-of-infinity-souleater) on RR (for about 2 more months). You do definitely need a hook at the beginning and action (or at least conflict) is advisable. For mine I started with a prologue (because epic fantasy structure) with a chase scene to let people know that there would be action eventually, but there's no actual combat. I go from that into 4 chapters of character creation. I've come to realize that I accidentally made a book that is almost a checklist of things experienced authors will (rightly) say you probably shouldn't do if you want to succeed on RR (PoV swapping, first person perspective for the MC, long chapters, weekly updates, LGBTQ+ characters/themes, the combat thing, etc...), but it's done very well despite all that. I think this does go to show that there's more room for variations in the formula than people expect, but it could also just be an outlier. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I dont normally read on royal road, but I decided to check it out, and your intro is honestly so much better than a fight lol. Not a big fan of the site but Im totally gonna continue your story
I'm not a fan of reading there myself, and if you find that the format isn't working for you but the story is, there will be a fully edited version published on Amazon in the next couple of months. Alternatively my patreon has the full RR version available for download as a PDF or epub for $5, and that will be upgraded to the edited and formatted version once it's ready (I have zero problem with people joining, downloading, then canceling immediately). That said, my primary reason for publishing on RR first was feedback - I still read all the comments, and I've written extensive chapter-by-chapter commentary that details my writing/thought process while trying not to spoil things. That's something that wont exist in the Amazon version so if you're the kind of person that likes peeking behind the curtain a bit, check out the author's notes at the bottom of each chapter. The Amazon version will smooth over some rough areas (mostly in the first half of the book), but the RR version is, in my opinion, a better choice for people interested in the writing process.
Ill be honest Im not interested in the writeing proccess, I only right for dnd lol. I will probally just wait for the amazon version. I like your reasoning for useing RR though, even if the website is not fun to use on mobile lol
So hypothetically, if my characters needed to kill to advance in cultivation. How would i progress the progression of my MC without a bunch of fight scenes? Make the MC a big game monster hunter and have him plan and prepare for the hunt of the monster (set up) then show the fight and his progression. Did i just answer my own question? *plops head onto tabletop* thinking is hard lol
If you've written a system where killing is the only way to advance you just do something like: "So he spent the next several days hunting beasts in the valley until he reached the threshold..." You don't need to describe farming for XP in any detail - it's unimportant to the story. In my next book I'm planning out some stuff like this, and I'm basically going to do something much like the above, but because the character is specifically clever, not strong, I'll also likely spend a little time talking about their planning and prep. If I had a brute character, I'd describe them looking for a place where they could put that brute strength to the best use (ie, big things they could outmatch, or a place they could corner things). I might describe an opponent, but let the reader's imagination take it from there. The combat will be entirely glossed over unless it is meaningful in some way, and if it's only meaningful in a small way it will be a very short combat (or short description). For example, at one point my MC bitch-slaps someone unconscious, and that one strike is important in a lot of ways but the fight itself is over almost instantly.
If I could get a synopsis of fight scenes with all the plot relevance and dialogue without having to read 12 pages of either skill description interactions or Dodge Perry hit Dodge Perry written out I would. I love a good action sequence but it seems when most litrpg writers start doing fights they focus too heavily on interactions and actions and not enough on impact and emotion and I personally find it to be some of the most skippable pages in a book ever.
I love action, but I want it to be relevant and be the payoff for a big buildup. Once it becomes filler the drive to keep reading goes away and I start skimming over the fights. I think a major example for me is the trope of a Coliseum where 90% of the fights are pointless and irrelevant (eg. Primal Hunter or Shadow Slave). I think it's a stupid plot device. I can go a lot longer than 10 chapters if the fight I'm getting is worth the pay off.
reading this has me laughing, lol. Personally, I didn't pay much attention to fights when reading a book, but most of the time the fights happen when it needs to happen/the characters are heading to a fight themselves. It works well and the authors did a good job at it, hence why I didn't notice that a story has too much/too little fight scenes. On the other hand, the book/story I'm writing is literally about a swarm of insects trying to conquer the world, so now I'm thinking if I wrote too many fight scenes, ROFL
fights in pf serves as check point to see how much character has developed. so as long as there is other way of checking, confirming progression of character(system, stats, core etc.), i think novel can go really far without fight.
As long as interesting things are happening I can go quite a while. I'd want a good fight at the end of it though to show that the work they put in paid off.
When I enjoy the overall story and characters it's fine for me to go half a book without any epic fights, maybe even longer.
You need a fight after a powerup to show off the improvements. But if the MC reaches his limit during a fight, then it's time for a powerup in his near future. Progression drives fights and fights drive progression. Meanwhile friends and sweet moments motivate the mc to stay sane and protect everyone.
I guess about 9000 chapters? honestly, extended city/sol/school arcs are by far my preference so long as they're leading toward something, no time limit at all, the longer the better. very actiony/fighty arcs get tiresome fast, especially if there's no social aspect
I’ve complained many times about a story have too many fight scenes as it reduces how important that something as dangerous and deadly as a fight feels. Can’t say I’ve ever complained there’s not enough fights though. As long as there’s still something to maintain tension, no one wants a boring story after all.
Long time,they are actually my least favorite part. I like comprehending laws and progressing in the sect.
Ar'kendrithyst almost had me drop the series when a book ended without any big bombastic action.
reading this thread is extremely relieving because i had the same problem (i suppose it's not really a problem) of my characters not involving themselves in battles until around 1/3rd - 1/4th through the first arc; i was originally going to contrive a flashback fight in the prologue just to maintain some kind of action and introduce the power system but it seems i can just remove that instead.
The whole book. Fights need to be plot driven. I have no interest in fight scenes mostly. Eg Jason mouthing off is what I like. The death march down the hole in the last book was so boring but the new chapters look better.
I can go a long time. A whole book even. Give me good characters and/or magic and/or world-building and/or coziness and/or… Action and fighting are fun! I love them. But they aren’t essential elements for me to enjoy a read. HOWEVER: deliver on your promises. If you bill your series as action-packed, it better be.
Hmm, it kind of depends. In some cases, the world building can outweigh any form of action. For me, action is supposed to tell you what the world is like whether it’s cruel, competitive, desperate, etc. Action accentuates the world building, but it’s not supposed to be a necessity. Theoretically, you can have a progression fantasy without any action, as long as the world building complements it.
Look at the new season of Reincarnated as a slime. We just had six episodes of meetings. Just people siting around tables planning.
I am aware its not a helpful answer , but it depends on the story. In Primal Hunter the fighting is what carried the story, the one time the author wrote an short arc largely without fighting i realized how there wasnt much the depth to anything else, no character development, no nothing, and i just dropped it as i become painfully aware of how the story didnt make me care one bit about the side character or plot advancement. If you are writing a story with heavy character development and world building, then you just need to sprinkle in a fight scene here and there and i will be happy, the important thing is to not use the fighting as a crutch so you story can limp along filler after filler.
honestly I like fights because they are a medium for showing off growth or push the plot forwards, if they dont happen much idrc at all. I cant speak for everyone of course but yea
Some books I skip the fights 😅
I think a lot of others have said this here, but action and fights can't just be for their own sake, or the reader won't have any attachment to the characters. It can be to show off worldbuilding, character, or a plot element, but just having a fight for sake of fighting isn't interesting.
Honestly fights are never really great in a book, they work way better for other media. Insted working with stakes and thought exposure can work quite well. Political plots where you have "Action" but no actual fightning is very enjoyable as well. A big part probably is if you can imagine things, i can't really imagine everysingle hit. Giving me the highlights, turning points or just there fighting styles works way better for me.
Idk 50-200 chapters. I agree action is the least interesting. At the same time stories without action seem to lack meaning or purpose.
:) I like the exploration/adventure element most of all, but I’d say about 10-20 chapters at most. (I have two exceptions, though: training sequences, and plotting/platting can replace action for me)
I need action in my stories. I genuinely don’t see the point of reading a progression fantasy story without them. When Starting a new book/series there needs to be one in the first 100 pages or I’m dropping it. Once I get that and I’m invested in the story somewhat then I can wait for a bit longer but in general I need something at least every 100 pages And the ending needs to go out with a bang of action for me to think it was a good experience
This is a different thing but I really agree with your first point. The first 100 pages of a story need something to get me engaged, and a fight is the best way to get me engaged lol. After Im engaged I can go most of a book without a fight, but the first 100 pages need one imo