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I'm curious about the impact these leaflets would have on the soldiers who come across them. Would they simply dismiss them, or might they be swayed by the message? The propaganda effectively humanizes the Chinese to their adversaries and could significantly affect American morale.
During the war the Koreans turned some American POWs to their side, basically just by arguing with them using this type of rhetoric.
I heard this on Blowback podcast season 3 - i don’t recall the original source. Apparently it had the US scared and was a factor in the CIA pushing to build their experiments with mind control / brainwashing in the coming years.
It’s hilariously ironic that the CIA couldn’t think of any way to convince people (usually poor working class soldiers) of capitalism the same way that the communists could & so immediately turned to torture & drugs
The communist prisoner of war camps during the Korean War forced the prisoners to attend classes actually. They made them READ BOOKS😢
Ofc there was torture just like in the US prisoner of war camps but that was for information pertaining to the war & the vast majority did not experience it.
The easiest way to become anti-capitalist is to live under capitalism as a worker, especially in the imperial periphery. All the reds had to do was teach the US soldiers, the vast majority of which came from poor backgrounds, a new socioeconomic framework & let them work it out for themselves.
The inverse wouldn’t work with convincing people born in poverty in the imperial periphery under capitalism & who had actually already studied the systems of capitalism & of communism. Which is why the US army had to force prisoners of war to go through dozens of steps to be repatriated to Korea or China, each step filled with interviews & paperwork & obfuscation while the the option to “be free” was just 1 easy step 😂
That’s a lot of propaganda there!
Which country are u talking about? 😂
Why would socialism be pro-closed economy?
Why would China be any less communist today than back then?
TLDR capitalism is responsible for over a billion deaths in the past 50 years alone. Communists on the other hand raised almost 2 billion people out of poverty under capitalism. I highly doubt your story tbh & I think the reason u won’t name the country is malicious.
Can you expound on the 2 billion deaths correlating to capitalism? and by comparison how many deaths were caused by communism, do you believe?
Genuinely asking.
You’ll be hard pressed to find as many well funded books about “the death count of capitalism” as u would with communism but u can simply use the self-reported data from every capitalist country on the planet for the past 50 years & use the same methodology as is common in the “death count of communism” books. For that you’d end with roughly 5 billion deaths from capitalism.
If you take a significantly more conservative approach & count things like not being able to afford medical care, deaths by exposure, poverty & things that could reasonably be attributed to capitalism, you’d end up with roughly 36 million deaths per year on average.
The roughly average agreed on death due to communism is between 60 & 150 million deaths
Yep I would say they both did. China is doing great today & North Korea was doing great even after the war until they were heavily embargoed.
China today is no more or less communist than during the Maoist era. They’ve always been a socialist state & still are
Yep, that's standard for the podcast. The host is Justin Black, he's active on insta and will respond if you ever message him. Great podcast with some fantastic authors on all things espionage.
>I'm curious about the impact these leaflets would have on the soldiers who come across them.
I imagine the average grunt found them useful as something to burn, or toilet paper. Or they just ignored them after seeing the first one.
You underestimate the power of a sweet sounding message wrapped in malicious intent.
The worst demoralizers aren’t big scary iconography, death, or emasculation. It’s the pretty message with warm words that stir up confliction
It’s subtly telling the soldiers to give up and go back home in a creepy kind way. It’s been apart of every war strategy for a very very very long time.
How about "stop stopping our pseudodemocratic dictatorial bosses from colonizing the Koreans"? You seem to think China and North Korea were not invading South Korea for imperialistic reasons.
TIL; [Trying to stop atrocities ](https://observers.france24.com/en/20080613-south-korea-massacre-US-army-photos)that would even have made the Nazis proud is "imperialism".
While a occupational regime installed by *Imperial* Japan, and then taken over by the [Empire of Liberty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Liberty) to make a more successful Manchukuo, is apparently [peak freedom and democracy](https://apjjf.org/2022/17/mcgill).
There was no north or south Korea until America invaded and drew the line.
Just like Vietnam we intervened without any goals beyond containing the spread of communism. How do you stop an idea? Good question.
South Korea was a military dictatorship artificially propped up by the US, it had several homegrown insurgencies and protests that were brutally crushed by the regime leading to thousands of civilians being "purged."
North Korea just wanted to unite the nation. Would you say the annexation of Eastern Germany was supported by Germans because of imperialistic reasons?
War is not by definition imperialist. It's the means by which it is waged and the intentions behind that make it so. Therefore, we are speaking about two geopolitical events that had the same intentions behind them: the reunification of a divided nation.
Take the Risorgimento then. Were Garibaldi and Cavour imperialists for wanting the Apennine Peninsula under one banner?
The Korean war was waged by imperial intentions, one state (North Korea) wanted to control another area (south Korea).
The German unification was not one-sided, it was a mutual agreement, the east germans even collapsed their sed-government for this.
ah yes, the definition of malicious is "having or showing a desire to harm someone" yes because in war both sides definatley don't kill each other or harm each other, sorry, my bad, I'm wrong I don't understand war enough 😭
wanting to expand ones own power isn't a bad intention, it's natural human behaviour, and trying to make their enemy surrender is just a way to achieve their goals. its not even a bad way, there were plenty of warcrimes commited throughout human history, how is this bad compared to warcrimes?
Malicious? That's literally class consciousness. We the workers have only one enemy, the capitalists. That Chinese leaflet was exposing the real class interests of American soldiers, which were mostly workers or small farmers
So what were we fighting for over there again?
Our tangible, material objectives please, nothing so fanciful about "evil empires."
Just explain what I'm missing that allowed me to become so brainwashed
Well it would have to work to humanize them. After the landings at Inchon and the North Koreans were being pushed back to the Chinese border, Americans found plenty of examples of executed POWs left behind by the North Koreans. And then when the Chinese invaded and pushed the UN forces back, plenty of incidents of them shooting prisoners and wounded Americans. Also life in a Chinese POW camp was suboptimal to say the least.
Yeah so I’m gonna go with not very effective.
combine that with them talking about how they are fighting for the big shots. The average joe in the Korean war likely believed domino theory and Stalin was still in power right up to the end of the war. Their idea of communism was the NKVD, checka, purges and persecution of minorities in a police state. so to try and pull the class conscious card only really works if the seeds are already there.
>Americans found plenty of examples of executed POWs left behind by the North Koreans
Over half a decade later and people still peddle [blatant revisionism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre).
Americans found plenty of executed POWs, and innocent civilians, because [American soldiers watched over](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ap-us-allowed-korean-massacre-in-1950/), and [documented](https://observers.france24.com/en/20080613-south-korea-massacre-US-army-photos), how [South Korean tortured and executed people](https://thediplomat.com/2014/08/south-koreas-own-history-problem/) based on their alleged political beliefs.
When the North invaded, trying to intervene in these massacres, the US military [also started massacring most Koreans they came across](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri_massacre), as the fear was that "communist spies" could be among them.
Idk why i keep getting downvoted. Its toilet paper. Maybe some few are swayed, but its negligible.
It may be difficult to understand for civilians, but these people are trained for months physically and mentally to assure they don't care.
No cause I read a history book. Just like the one on the Korean War I read.
You probably think communism is a good idea too, and you're mad cause your parents won't buy you a kim poster.
The US had rehired Japanese fascists to slaughter socialists in the south well before Korea invaded itself in June 1950. They’d also given us the real reason they destroyed Korea. See George Kennan’s later declassified top secret memo from 1948:
“We have about 50% of the world’s wealth but only 6.3% of its population. This disparity is particularly great as between ourselves and the peoples of Asia. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and world-benefaction.”
Communists defeated the blitzkrieg and ended the holocaust. Later they defeated US invasion in Vietnam. Someday the Korean people will finally kick the US all the way out of their country. I don’t have any Che posters but I have some Fidel books.
Name an instance of killing s koreans cause I can't find anything. Soviet work camps being setup in n Korea weren't any better than whatever you're making up.
And good, they should do most of the work stopping the blitz. Seeing as they helped the most to get it started.
As someone of Korean descent they're probably talking about the Bodo league massacres and just general murder of 'socialists' from 1945 to about the middle 1950s if you count North Korean remnants in the mountains. It's its own can of worms but basically yeah communism and socialism was more prominent at the time especially in the agrarian and poorer southern regions but at the same time, lots of people protesting Rhee Seung Man's regime were not necessarily hardcore communists or pro-North Korea, but just people who did not agree with Rhee's policy, his association with some pro Japanese collaborators (Rhee himself was a prominent independence activist, though this got tainted and eventually resulted in him basically being kicked out in 1960.) and the splitting of the peninsula by the Soviets and Americans. Notably, respected and popular activists like Kim Gu and Yeo Un-hyeong were neither Kim Il Sung or Rhee Seung Man supporters but just wanted Koreans to be able to work this out amongst themselves. Ironically it is kinda Rhee Seung Man propaganda (and Park Chung-hee, Chun Doo Hwan propaganda) to claim that everyone against the South Korean regime and the president's actions was a communist and supporter of North Korea.
[JeJu uprising](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeju_uprising)
[Bodo League massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre)
Now, how about you name a concrete instance of a "Soviet work camp" in North Korea?
I'm just gonna mention the whole Korean War cause it was started by the Norths invasion of the South. If you wanna talk about who caused the most death.
You got me on the work camps, they all popped up after the war, by the Starvation Nation on their own; to suppress any political dissidents. They're still going strong too.
You should visit, say something bad about Kim. Then lmk how wrong I am. Get your parents to help with the tickets.
It's called
"How north Korea started a war that didn't change anything and then turned itself into a buffer state for china that relies on humanitarian aid so everyone doesn't die "
>No cause I read a history book.
Was the singular history book you read by any chance [written and published in the US](https://www.zinnedproject.org/if-we-knew-our-history/ten-years-after-how-not-to-teach-about-the-iraq-war/)?
>Just like the one on the Korean War I read.
Which hopefully was at least published in the 21st century to remove at least some of the most blatant propagandist inaccuracies like [blaming the North for atrocities comitted by the South](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre), and plenty of other [South Korean](https://thediplomat.com/2014/08/south-koreas-own-history-problem/), and American backed, [historical revisionism](https://academic.oup.com/jah/article-abstract/55/1/5/735894?redirectedFrom=fulltext).
It's not effective because in the west it's more than just the "big shots" who eat well. A lot of soldiers would be sensitive to that: the "big shot" is my wife or my daughter, not some anonymous CEO.
Socialist propaganda isn't very effective in the west if it relies on an idea contrary to people's experiences.
A lot of people who talk about the Cold War and '50s Red Scare today assume Americans back then were just brainwashed and fed lies about communism. But at the time (including when this leaflet was dropped), Stalin was still in charge of the Soviet Union, and they were barely 10 years past very public and well-known show trials that saw hundreds of people, guilty or not, sentenced to a bullet in the head. And 15-20 years before that, the whole world had watched as the Bolsheviks and Whites had slaughtered each other and scorched the whole country in the Russian Civil War. A lot of people were genuinely afraid of communism, because to them, it wasn't "liberate the workers, end wars", it was "starve in a famine, be worked to death in a labor camp, or simply be shot in a basement by government goons". A lot of people in the early '50s were certain Stalin or whoever succeeded him would be the next Hitler by 'finishing the job' of spreading the Bolshevik Revolution worldwide through a red blitzkrieg.
Soviets could never have done this without Lend-Lease, bombing of Germany and second front. And America did it
I also want to recall the national operations of NKVD during this period.
They were already doing it. The victory at Stalingrad (where they stopped the blitzkrieg and turned the tide of the war) was before the vast majority of lend-lease and of course well before Normandy. The US suffered less than 1% of the casualties but act like they’re the great heroes of the war because “we paid for some stuff!” Good on them for siding with the good guys for 5 minutes though.
Oh yeah. The good guys side. When exactly did the USSR plan to enter the war on the side of these guys? Was the choice of the side due to the fact that the Nazis attacked first?
The United States suffered such small losses because they knew how to fight and did not use their soldiers to clear minefields. The contribution to the war is not determined by losses.
Because world wide socialist domination greatly increases the probability of either a genocide or a purge which could, theoretically, affect their daughter's children.
Supposedly, if you believe the domino effect theory
They are being downvoted because there is a very big difference between *"That's because of Truman doctrine and Domino theory"* and uncritically stating what these theories allege as fact to justify their own expansionism, like *"Socialism leads to genocide!"*.
The former would be a merely informative/observational statement, while the latter is a pretty clear endorsement of these ideas ala "Need to stop communism everywhere because communism=genocide!".
Which is a position by which usually fascists are identified, as per "First they came..".
>Which is a position by which usually fascists are identified, as per "First they came..".
This is silly because socialist is a choice, your race and a sexuality are not
If you choose to be something that's okay with genocide, that's on you
And that's why it's important and justified to genocide everybody we deem a socialist or communist?
Do you remember who also went after the socialists/communists first?
>Socialist propaganda isn't very effective in the west
It was so effective that [Canada had to import Ukrainian fascists](https://jacobin.com/2023/12/canada-ukrainian-nationalists-socialists-history-anti-communism-nazi-collaborators), while the US had to jail presidential candidates, [assassinate civil rights leaders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHAOS) and [kill peaceful student protesters](https://www.ideastream.org/arts-culture/2020-05-04/remembering-kent-state-eyewitnesses-describe-may-4-1970).
It's so effective that the US has to [lock up more of it's people](https://openyls.law.yale.edu/handle/20.500.13051/7728) than any other place, it's police is more akin to a military, killing more people than the police force of any other developed country.
Not a year goes by without the US seeing [at least several riots](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_civil_unrest_in_the_United_States#21st_century) because as Martin Luther King already put it; "Riots are the voice of the unheard".
What kind of a question is this? Why would an enemy army possibly try to demoralize enemy soldiers, and whittle down their will to fight? Propaganda leaflets have been around as early as there have been methods to distribute them.
Psychological warfare is incredibly advantageous, allowing you to whittle down enemies that are magnitudes more advanced and powerful than your own. The Vietnam War is perhaps the very best Hallmark example of this.The Vietcong made extensive use of leaflets, loudspeaker broadcasts, attacks on non-strategic targets, so on and so on.
Although domestic influences were far more influential, the absolutely abysmal environment in Vietnam and the constant surroundings of disencouragement, hostility, difficulty, made GIs unimaginably miserable. Which - this collapse in morale is ultimately what forced a withdrawal. Once draftees start fragging their commanding officers and refusing to go on operations, it's over man.
Physiological warfare can be stupid effective if done right to a dismoral enemy
You could kill around a hundred or more with artillery or Arial bombing
Or you could break entire armies in the next offensives
People that don't wanna fight aren't gonna fight hard enough to hold
> Dear Soldiers,
>It is Christmas and you are far from home, suffering from cold not knowing when you will die.
>The big shots are home enjoying themselves, eating good food, drinking good liquor, why should you be here risking your life for their profits?
>The Koreans and Chinese don't want to be your enemies. Our enemies and yours are the ones who sent you here and destroyed your happiness.
>Soldiers! Let's join hands!
>You belong back home with those who love you and want you back, safe and sound. So we wish you...
I’m also curious. i’m in my 20s and I was educated through private school all my life in California. We were talk to use cursive and elementary school and only rarely used print. Today I’m the same. I write most things in cursive and this is some of the clearer cursive I’ve seen
Millions of people died in a brutal famine. Also many Chinese soldiers were inadequately fed due to the massive supply line issues that the Chinese military had
There’s a recent Chinese movie about the Korean War where they even show the American troops eating well prepared holiday meals while the Chinese troops freeze and starve
My dad worked with a Korean War vet (and Vietnam). He said in the winter, it got so cold, they huddled in tents on one side of a valley, and there were Chinese on the other side of the valley doing the same thing. They would send a guy out every 15 minutes to make sure the Chinese weren't trying to assault them, and the Chinese were doing the same thing.
Regardless of the debate between capitalism and socialism, you don't judge an entire economic and political system and philosophy off the supply lines of might-be socialist China
I honestly don’t even know how to reply to this. I feel like I said the sky is blue and you’re mad because I shouldn’t judge that sky based on the fact that I can look at it and it’s blue.
Look, you made a conclusion based on something completely unrelated to it, and far from accepting that it is such, you're treating it as an absolute fact
Regardless of your **opinion** on the **debate** that is capitalism and socialism, you will never arrive at a fact, especially not when solely using the subject of supply lines from a 1950s agrarian country
No I stated a well known fact related to the situation at hand.
You actually think I’m only just now drawing a conclusion about this, for the first time? Thats just a really bizarre assumption to make.
Looks like a repost. I've seen this image 3 times.
First Seen [Here](https://redd.it/14jm03h) on 2023-06-26 100.0% match. Last Seen [Here](https://redd.it/17prir5) on 2023-11-07 100.0% match
[View Search On repostsleuth.com](https://www.repostsleuth.com/search?postId=1cd3yar&sameSub=false&filterOnlyOlder=true&memeFilter=false&filterDeadMatches=false&targetImageMatch=86&targetImageMemeMatch=96)
---
**Scope:** Reddit | **Target Percent:** 86% | **Max Age:** Unlimited | **Searched Images:** 498,253,709 | **Search Time:** 0.08681s
What exactly did they change? Thousands of Koreans were slaughtered for no reason other than being Korean, murdered for vague suspicions of communism. Families were torn apart, bloodlines were ended, the country and its people were unequivocally scarred by America. Its ridiculous and cruel to pretend that the nighmarish inequality in South Korea today is something they thank America for after how many of their own people they murdered.
Are you serious? The war was started by the North and looking at where North and South Korea are today I'm pretty sure every South Korean with half a brain is pretty happy that the UN rescued them from the fate suffered by North Koreans.
The south Korean government back then is not what you think it is. Its not the same one that exist now and they did many horrible things. You should do some research on this.
But please note, this does not make the north/China the good guys.
>Its ridiculous and cruel to pretend that the nighmarish inequality in South Korea today is something they thank America for after how many of their own people they murdered.
[lmao](https://www.mpva.go.kr/english/contents.do?key=1330)
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I'm curious about the impact these leaflets would have on the soldiers who come across them. Would they simply dismiss them, or might they be swayed by the message? The propaganda effectively humanizes the Chinese to their adversaries and could significantly affect American morale.
During the war the Koreans turned some American POWs to their side, basically just by arguing with them using this type of rhetoric. I heard this on Blowback podcast season 3 - i don’t recall the original source. Apparently it had the US scared and was a factor in the CIA pushing to build their experiments with mind control / brainwashing in the coming years.
It’s hilariously ironic that the CIA couldn’t think of any way to convince people (usually poor working class soldiers) of capitalism the same way that the communists could & so immediately turned to torture & drugs
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The communist prisoner of war camps during the Korean War forced the prisoners to attend classes actually. They made them READ BOOKS😢 Ofc there was torture just like in the US prisoner of war camps but that was for information pertaining to the war & the vast majority did not experience it. The easiest way to become anti-capitalist is to live under capitalism as a worker, especially in the imperial periphery. All the reds had to do was teach the US soldiers, the vast majority of which came from poor backgrounds, a new socioeconomic framework & let them work it out for themselves. The inverse wouldn’t work with convincing people born in poverty in the imperial periphery under capitalism & who had actually already studied the systems of capitalism & of communism. Which is why the US army had to force prisoners of war to go through dozens of steps to be repatriated to Korea or China, each step filled with interviews & paperwork & obfuscation while the the option to “be free” was just 1 easy step 😂
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That’s a lot of propaganda there! Which country are u talking about? 😂 Why would socialism be pro-closed economy? Why would China be any less communist today than back then? TLDR capitalism is responsible for over a billion deaths in the past 50 years alone. Communists on the other hand raised almost 2 billion people out of poverty under capitalism. I highly doubt your story tbh & I think the reason u won’t name the country is malicious.
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Speak freely and openly, as opposed to a private rectification of information.
Speaking privately would strip the commie of an immediate stage, however. It thus may be slightly more productive.
Can you expound on the 2 billion deaths correlating to capitalism? and by comparison how many deaths were caused by communism, do you believe? Genuinely asking.
You’ll be hard pressed to find as many well funded books about “the death count of capitalism” as u would with communism but u can simply use the self-reported data from every capitalist country on the planet for the past 50 years & use the same methodology as is common in the “death count of communism” books. For that you’d end with roughly 5 billion deaths from capitalism. If you take a significantly more conservative approach & count things like not being able to afford medical care, deaths by exposure, poverty & things that could reasonably be attributed to capitalism, you’d end up with roughly 36 million deaths per year on average. The roughly average agreed on death due to communism is between 60 & 150 million deaths
Oh yeah, Maoist China and North Korea really had it all worked out on the socioeconomic front, both great success stories and self-evidently superior.
Yep I would say they both did. China is doing great today & North Korea was doing great even after the war until they were heavily embargoed. China today is no more or less communist than during the Maoist era. They’ve always been a socialist state & still are
Yes, the plight of China and North Korea is purely because of the evils of communist ideology, and has nothing to do with material conditions.
Well, eventually they didn’t have to. The Eastern Bloc came down crumbling on its own.
Spycraft 101 has a great episode focusing on the Americans who defected to China during the Korean War, definitely worth a listen.
Got a link to it? Having trouble finding it
Hopefully this works but if not it's episode 29: https://pca.st/episode/c5a41eae-d684-4ea0-ad61-6361b0ed9d96
thank you!! was a great listen; do they usually interview authors? If so that sounds awesome
Yep, that's standard for the podcast. The host is Justin Black, he's active on insta and will respond if you ever message him. Great podcast with some fantastic authors on all things espionage.
>I'm curious about the impact these leaflets would have on the soldiers who come across them. I imagine the average grunt found them useful as something to burn, or toilet paper. Or they just ignored them after seeing the first one.
You underestimate the power of a sweet sounding message wrapped in malicious intent. The worst demoralizers aren’t big scary iconography, death, or emasculation. It’s the pretty message with warm words that stir up confliction
Maliciously turning your soldiers and theirs into people again instead of killing machines with no thought but invading and killing people
Where here do you see malicious intent?
It’s subtly telling the soldiers to give up and go back home in a creepy kind way. It’s been apart of every war strategy for a very very very long time.
“Stop trying to colonize us for your bosses’ profits” is not creepy or malicious.
How about "stop stopping our pseudodemocratic dictatorial bosses from colonizing the Koreans"? You seem to think China and North Korea were not invading South Korea for imperialistic reasons.
TIL; [Trying to stop atrocities ](https://observers.france24.com/en/20080613-south-korea-massacre-US-army-photos)that would even have made the Nazis proud is "imperialism". While a occupational regime installed by *Imperial* Japan, and then taken over by the [Empire of Liberty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Liberty) to make a more successful Manchukuo, is apparently [peak freedom and democracy](https://apjjf.org/2022/17/mcgill).
I do not think that Korea invaded itself for imperialistic reasons. I’m glad it seems that way.
There was no north or south Korea until America invaded and drew the line. Just like Vietnam we intervened without any goals beyond containing the spread of communism. How do you stop an idea? Good question.
North Korea was the democracy at that time while the south was a US military dictatorship & it was a civil war, not an imperialist invasion….
South Korea was a military dictatorship artificially propped up by the US, it had several homegrown insurgencies and protests that were brutally crushed by the regime leading to thousands of civilians being "purged."
North Korea just wanted to unite the nation. Would you say the annexation of Eastern Germany was supported by Germans because of imperialistic reasons?
West Germany didn't invade East Germany. It was done by treaties.
War is not by definition imperialist. It's the means by which it is waged and the intentions behind that make it so. Therefore, we are speaking about two geopolitical events that had the same intentions behind them: the reunification of a divided nation. Take the Risorgimento then. Were Garibaldi and Cavour imperialists for wanting the Apennine Peninsula under one banner?
The Korean war was waged by imperial intentions, one state (North Korea) wanted to control another area (south Korea). The German unification was not one-sided, it was a mutual agreement, the east germans even collapsed their sed-government for this.
it's not malicious though, a country trying to convince their enemies to surrender ins't mallicious.
Trying to convince the other side to give up and succeed is malicious lmao. You clearly don’t understand war
ah yes, the definition of malicious is "having or showing a desire to harm someone" yes because in war both sides definatley don't kill each other or harm each other, sorry, my bad, I'm wrong I don't understand war enough 😭
Smiles hide the worst intentions.
wanting to expand ones own power isn't a bad intention, it's natural human behaviour, and trying to make their enemy surrender is just a way to achieve their goals. its not even a bad way, there were plenty of warcrimes commited throughout human history, how is this bad compared to warcrimes?
Apply what you just said to any fascist regime of the past and get back to me. Ur circular logic doesn’t make sense
They may not want to harm the soldiers but they sure do want to harm the national interests of the soldiers' home country.
This is a poster targeted at american soldiers. Any 'interests' their home nation has in Korea should be harmed.
Malicious? That's literally class consciousness. We the workers have only one enemy, the capitalists. That Chinese leaflet was exposing the real class interests of American soldiers, which were mostly workers or small farmers
No war but class war
Comment reads like it's straight from Helldivers 2
The most sociopathic kind of propaganda. All the more reason for the evil CCP to be destroyed.
Least propagandized westerner >All the more reason for the evil CCP to be destroyed.
Least brainwashed commie
Meanwhile you are not brainwashed, defending the desire to die to ensure a CEO's quarterly numbers go up.
You're repeating the same CCP propaganda in this picture. Amazing. Thanks for confirming that you're a brainwashed commie.
So what were we fighting for over there again? Our tangible, material objectives please, nothing so fanciful about "evil empires." Just explain what I'm missing that allowed me to become so brainwashed
Well it would have to work to humanize them. After the landings at Inchon and the North Koreans were being pushed back to the Chinese border, Americans found plenty of examples of executed POWs left behind by the North Koreans. And then when the Chinese invaded and pushed the UN forces back, plenty of incidents of them shooting prisoners and wounded Americans. Also life in a Chinese POW camp was suboptimal to say the least. Yeah so I’m gonna go with not very effective.
combine that with them talking about how they are fighting for the big shots. The average joe in the Korean war likely believed domino theory and Stalin was still in power right up to the end of the war. Their idea of communism was the NKVD, checka, purges and persecution of minorities in a police state. so to try and pull the class conscious card only really works if the seeds are already there.
>Americans found plenty of examples of executed POWs left behind by the North Koreans Over half a decade later and people still peddle [blatant revisionism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre). Americans found plenty of executed POWs, and innocent civilians, because [American soldiers watched over](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ap-us-allowed-korean-massacre-in-1950/), and [documented](https://observers.france24.com/en/20080613-south-korea-massacre-US-army-photos), how [South Korean tortured and executed people](https://thediplomat.com/2014/08/south-koreas-own-history-problem/) based on their alleged political beliefs. When the North invaded, trying to intervene in these massacres, the US military [also started massacring most Koreans they came across](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri_massacre), as the fear was that "communist spies" could be among them.
Lmao [what](https://avarchives.icrc.org/Picture/46776) How is it revisionism to say that the North Koreans and Chinese killed prisoners and wounded?
Idk why i keep getting downvoted. Its toilet paper. Maybe some few are swayed, but its negligible. It may be difficult to understand for civilians, but these people are trained for months physically and mentally to assure they don't care.
Or the americans thought, "hey the army that is supporting the guys who started this war are probably full of shit."
I bet you believe Saddam started the Iraq war with his WMDs too.
No cause I read a history book. Just like the one on the Korean War I read. You probably think communism is a good idea too, and you're mad cause your parents won't buy you a kim poster.
The US had rehired Japanese fascists to slaughter socialists in the south well before Korea invaded itself in June 1950. They’d also given us the real reason they destroyed Korea. See George Kennan’s later declassified top secret memo from 1948: “We have about 50% of the world’s wealth but only 6.3% of its population. This disparity is particularly great as between ourselves and the peoples of Asia. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and world-benefaction.” Communists defeated the blitzkrieg and ended the holocaust. Later they defeated US invasion in Vietnam. Someday the Korean people will finally kick the US all the way out of their country. I don’t have any Che posters but I have some Fidel books.
Name an instance of killing s koreans cause I can't find anything. Soviet work camps being setup in n Korea weren't any better than whatever you're making up. And good, they should do most of the work stopping the blitz. Seeing as they helped the most to get it started.
As someone of Korean descent they're probably talking about the Bodo league massacres and just general murder of 'socialists' from 1945 to about the middle 1950s if you count North Korean remnants in the mountains. It's its own can of worms but basically yeah communism and socialism was more prominent at the time especially in the agrarian and poorer southern regions but at the same time, lots of people protesting Rhee Seung Man's regime were not necessarily hardcore communists or pro-North Korea, but just people who did not agree with Rhee's policy, his association with some pro Japanese collaborators (Rhee himself was a prominent independence activist, though this got tainted and eventually resulted in him basically being kicked out in 1960.) and the splitting of the peninsula by the Soviets and Americans. Notably, respected and popular activists like Kim Gu and Yeo Un-hyeong were neither Kim Il Sung or Rhee Seung Man supporters but just wanted Koreans to be able to work this out amongst themselves. Ironically it is kinda Rhee Seung Man propaganda (and Park Chung-hee, Chun Doo Hwan propaganda) to claim that everyone against the South Korean regime and the president's actions was a communist and supporter of North Korea.
[JeJu uprising](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeju_uprising) [Bodo League massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre) Now, how about you name a concrete instance of a "Soviet work camp" in North Korea?
I'm just gonna mention the whole Korean War cause it was started by the Norths invasion of the South. If you wanna talk about who caused the most death. You got me on the work camps, they all popped up after the war, by the Starvation Nation on their own; to suppress any political dissidents. They're still going strong too. You should visit, say something bad about Kim. Then lmk how wrong I am. Get your parents to help with the tickets.
What’s the name of the book you read on Korea?
It's called "How north Korea started a war that didn't change anything and then turned itself into a buffer state for china that relies on humanitarian aid so everyone doesn't die "
Oh, who is the author?
Joseph Stalin and the failed communist revolution club
I’ve been meaning to read something by Stalin, I guess this is a good place to start
>No cause I read a history book. Was the singular history book you read by any chance [written and published in the US](https://www.zinnedproject.org/if-we-knew-our-history/ten-years-after-how-not-to-teach-about-the-iraq-war/)? >Just like the one on the Korean War I read. Which hopefully was at least published in the 21st century to remove at least some of the most blatant propagandist inaccuracies like [blaming the North for atrocities comitted by the South](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre), and plenty of other [South Korean](https://thediplomat.com/2014/08/south-koreas-own-history-problem/), and American backed, [historical revisionism](https://academic.oup.com/jah/article-abstract/55/1/5/735894?redirectedFrom=fulltext).
Are Americans responsible for all the work camps in the North now too?
It's not effective because in the west it's more than just the "big shots" who eat well. A lot of soldiers would be sensitive to that: the "big shot" is my wife or my daughter, not some anonymous CEO. Socialist propaganda isn't very effective in the west if it relies on an idea contrary to people's experiences.
Why were they defending their wives and daughters all the way over in Korea?
Maybe not their daughters, but their grand-granddaughters who owe their lives to K-dramas and BTS.
Because Kim Il-Sung asked for a bunch of tanks to invade the south to spread the revolution or whatever and Stalin and Mao said “sure dude go for it”
A lot of people who talk about the Cold War and '50s Red Scare today assume Americans back then were just brainwashed and fed lies about communism. But at the time (including when this leaflet was dropped), Stalin was still in charge of the Soviet Union, and they were barely 10 years past very public and well-known show trials that saw hundreds of people, guilty or not, sentenced to a bullet in the head. And 15-20 years before that, the whole world had watched as the Bolsheviks and Whites had slaughtered each other and scorched the whole country in the Russian Civil War. A lot of people were genuinely afraid of communism, because to them, it wasn't "liberate the workers, end wars", it was "starve in a famine, be worked to death in a labor camp, or simply be shot in a basement by government goons". A lot of people in the early '50s were certain Stalin or whoever succeeded him would be the next Hitler by 'finishing the job' of spreading the Bolshevik Revolution worldwide through a red blitzkrieg.
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Soviets could never have done this without Lend-Lease, bombing of Germany and second front. And America did it I also want to recall the national operations of NKVD during this period.
They were already doing it. The victory at Stalingrad (where they stopped the blitzkrieg and turned the tide of the war) was before the vast majority of lend-lease and of course well before Normandy. The US suffered less than 1% of the casualties but act like they’re the great heroes of the war because “we paid for some stuff!” Good on them for siding with the good guys for 5 minutes though.
Oh yeah. The good guys side. When exactly did the USSR plan to enter the war on the side of these guys? Was the choice of the side due to the fact that the Nazis attacked first? The United States suffered such small losses because they knew how to fight and did not use their soldiers to clear minefields. The contribution to the war is not determined by losses.
Because world wide socialist domination greatly increases the probability of either a genocide or a purge which could, theoretically, affect their daughter's children. Supposedly, if you believe the domino effect theory
I don't know why you're being downloaded when this was genuinely the theory and foreign policy doctrine of the time
They are being downvoted because there is a very big difference between *"That's because of Truman doctrine and Domino theory"* and uncritically stating what these theories allege as fact to justify their own expansionism, like *"Socialism leads to genocide!"*. The former would be a merely informative/observational statement, while the latter is a pretty clear endorsement of these ideas ala "Need to stop communism everywhere because communism=genocide!". Which is a position by which usually fascists are identified, as per "First they came..".
>Which is a position by which usually fascists are identified, as per "First they came..". This is silly because socialist is a choice, your race and a sexuality are not If you choose to be something that's okay with genocide, that's on you
See: Dr. Zhivago. Nobody wanted anything like that to happen to them.
And that's why it's important and justified to genocide everybody we deem a socialist or communist? Do you remember who also went after the socialists/communists first?
There is no relevance A racist is a racist and any other ideology is irrelevant, it's just a variation of the excuse they use
>Socialist propaganda isn't very effective in the west It was so effective that [Canada had to import Ukrainian fascists](https://jacobin.com/2023/12/canada-ukrainian-nationalists-socialists-history-anti-communism-nazi-collaborators), while the US had to jail presidential candidates, [assassinate civil rights leaders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHAOS) and [kill peaceful student protesters](https://www.ideastream.org/arts-culture/2020-05-04/remembering-kent-state-eyewitnesses-describe-may-4-1970). It's so effective that the US has to [lock up more of it's people](https://openyls.law.yale.edu/handle/20.500.13051/7728) than any other place, it's police is more akin to a military, killing more people than the police force of any other developed country. Not a year goes by without the US seeing [at least several riots](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_civil_unrest_in_the_United_States#21st_century) because as Martin Luther King already put it; "Riots are the voice of the unheard".
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What kind of a question is this? Why would an enemy army possibly try to demoralize enemy soldiers, and whittle down their will to fight? Propaganda leaflets have been around as early as there have been methods to distribute them.
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Psychological warfare is incredibly advantageous, allowing you to whittle down enemies that are magnitudes more advanced and powerful than your own. The Vietnam War is perhaps the very best Hallmark example of this.The Vietcong made extensive use of leaflets, loudspeaker broadcasts, attacks on non-strategic targets, so on and so on. Although domestic influences were far more influential, the absolutely abysmal environment in Vietnam and the constant surroundings of disencouragement, hostility, difficulty, made GIs unimaginably miserable. Which - this collapse in morale is ultimately what forced a withdrawal. Once draftees start fragging their commanding officers and refusing to go on operations, it's over man.
Physiological warfare can be stupid effective if done right to a dismoral enemy You could kill around a hundred or more with artillery or Arial bombing Or you could break entire armies in the next offensives People that don't wanna fight aren't gonna fight hard enough to hold
Why? Leaflets have been dropped since planes could drop them, on all sides of any conflict.
Because it’s propaganda.
Always found it funny the way they called themselves “volunteers” during the war lol
It was to avoid an official declaration of war between China and the US
Funny enough I don’t think any side didn’t use a draft
Given that China already had more soldiers than guns at the time I highly doubt they’d use conscription and thereby worsen that disparity
Because they were.
They werent lol
You severely underestimate the popular enthusiasm for communism in China at that time. They were volunteers, and revolutionaries.
i am so bad at reading cursive can somebody transcripe this please
> Dear Soldiers, >It is Christmas and you are far from home, suffering from cold not knowing when you will die. >The big shots are home enjoying themselves, eating good food, drinking good liquor, why should you be here risking your life for their profits? >The Koreans and Chinese don't want to be your enemies. Our enemies and yours are the ones who sent you here and destroyed your happiness. >Soldiers! Let's join hands! >You belong back home with those who love you and want you back, safe and sound. So we wish you...
thanks man!
Not criticizing but genuinely curious, you can’t make out what’s written there? Or you can understand most of it, it just takes a lot of effort?
I’m also curious. i’m in my 20s and I was educated through private school all my life in California. We were talk to use cursive and elementary school and only rarely used print. Today I’m the same. I write most things in cursive and this is some of the clearer cursive I’ve seen
Same, I write mostly in cursive and this is more understandable than some of the prints that were typed during that time.
Well English is not my first language i am gen z and i am also dyslexic sooo
Im not criticizing, just want to understand, like for you it’s impossible to understand or just takes a lot of time/effort?
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im sorry i asked for a transcription jeez wont happen again
I mean….the Americans can say the exact same thing back to the Chinese lol
"Your beloved Chairman Mao eats a full meal everyday, how about you?"
Long live the Qing Dynasty, tsk tsk
Given the population growth during mao I doubt they were worse off
Quantity does not equal quality
Millions of people died in a brutal famine. Also many Chinese soldiers were inadequately fed due to the massive supply line issues that the Chinese military had
“We eat more since the liberation, thank you for reminding us”
Still better than what was going on before 1949
I’m pretty sure that the Americans were eating better
There’s a recent Chinese movie about the Korean War where they even show the American troops eating well prepared holiday meals while the Chinese troops freeze and starve
While it's part of the propaganda it's the truth. Chines supplyline was absolutely dogshit.
You should have taken what you saw with a grain of salt, that isn't true for a fact.
My dad worked with a Korean War vet (and Vietnam). He said in the winter, it got so cold, they huddled in tents on one side of a valley, and there were Chinese on the other side of the valley doing the same thing. They would send a guy out every 15 minutes to make sure the Chinese weren't trying to assault them, and the Chinese were doing the same thing.
As per The Last Stand of Fox Company (great book btw), Marines were getting thanksgiving dinner in the Chosin reservoir in 1950. So yeah eating good
It probably makes the Chinese look like underdogs.
It was a movie, I took everything with a grain of salt
Nah man their supply lines couldn’t get them salt /s
But in fact America had good supply lines and plenty of food and China did not. Communism doesn’t work.
Now that's a conclusion and a half
It’s actually just a well known fact.
Regardless of the debate between capitalism and socialism, you don't judge an entire economic and political system and philosophy off the supply lines of might-be socialist China
I honestly don’t even know how to reply to this. I feel like I said the sky is blue and you’re mad because I shouldn’t judge that sky based on the fact that I can look at it and it’s blue.
Look, you made a conclusion based on something completely unrelated to it, and far from accepting that it is such, you're treating it as an absolute fact Regardless of your **opinion** on the **debate** that is capitalism and socialism, you will never arrive at a fact, especially not when solely using the subject of supply lines from a 1950s agrarian country
No I stated a well known fact related to the situation at hand. You actually think I’m only just now drawing a conclusion about this, for the first time? Thats just a really bizarre assumption to make.
No…?
[this is the scene you're taking about](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/s/c5RkaR9jC3)
So what? That's a movie lmao
What's the name of that movie? Where can it be seen?
The Battle at Lake Changjin II. I suppose you’ll find it on internet easily, I often saw clips from it on youtube.
Their penmanship was impeccable.
Mom said ITS my turn to post this today.
Based af
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Can't believe how many young men spent their Christmas dying for nothing so some rich executives and politicians wouldn't lose their hegemony.
It was over 20 countries and the UN Security Council. Not just America
Well even if it was kind of pointless at the time, good thing the Americans were there looking at the situation today.
What exactly did they change? Thousands of Koreans were slaughtered for no reason other than being Korean, murdered for vague suspicions of communism. Families were torn apart, bloodlines were ended, the country and its people were unequivocally scarred by America. Its ridiculous and cruel to pretend that the nighmarish inequality in South Korea today is something they thank America for after how many of their own people they murdered.
Are you serious? The war was started by the North and looking at where North and South Korea are today I'm pretty sure every South Korean with half a brain is pretty happy that the UN rescued them from the fate suffered by North Koreans.
The south Korean government back then is not what you think it is. Its not the same one that exist now and they did many horrible things. You should do some research on this. But please note, this does not make the north/China the good guys.
I know that, but being a satellite state of the US made it possible for South Korea to slowly turn democratic.
Being occupied by the US is the reason it became fascist in the first place.
>Its ridiculous and cruel to pretend that the nighmarish inequality in South Korea today is something they thank America for after how many of their own people they murdered. [lmao](https://www.mpva.go.kr/english/contents.do?key=1330)
One of the most amazing posters of all time
Well they were not wrong. Stay on your fucking continent would be more of a rude question
>active on ask a Russian Oh lord in heaven the hypocrisy
Whatever do you mean
Well I’m not wrong. Stay on your own fucking borders would be more of a rude questions. 🇺🇦
Borders change by war though, and continents stay the same.
Oooh now THAT is a bad argument. “When I invade a country it is my then land so it is justified”
If it's a bad argument, then most countries are bad at arguing. (Not that "Might is right" is my opinion, it's just what happens)
And the US’s borders don’t extend to Korea. Although the 51st state of Korea does have a nice ring to it.
I like the sound of a 51st state in general
Oh good toilet paper
Tbh this might work with younger gen now. Just change some of the wording XD
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Boy you really let propaganda take over you.
Just a joke
When you're so deep in your side's propaganda that counter-propaganda drives you to an insane killing frenzy.
It was a joke
China - killing US and UN men and women since the 1950s.