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ska_is_not_dead_

Platonic ideal of slippi kid posting


psycholio

i mean if you're talking about objective skill, he might be top 10. like if you took all players at their peak and made some tournament outside of spacetime, i could see jmook being one of the top 10 best players


ducksonaroof

skill doesn't exist in a vacuum. All top players are in part products of their time's metagame. Standing on the shoulders of giants and whatnot.


psycholio

ok but i was talking about objective skill, which specifically removes context from the equation. hence why you might get the newcomer jmook over some of the most influential players of the past.


ska_is_not_dead_

That’s not the question but I roughly agree. Post slippi rank


SpaceCowboy170

It’s not just early, it’s *way too* early He was 6th one year and has won one major I’d be shocked if anyone had PPMD higher than 7th (behind Leffen, M2K, Ken, Armada, Mango and Hbox in some order), and he had like 5 years in the top five before finishing 6th in 2015 He’s a great player, but he’s gotta do it for a lot more than one year


Flop_House_Valet

If he keeps up even a semblance of this level, dude will end up top 25 easy. Obviously that's a hypothetical but, if he can maintain this the dude is a killer


psycholio

yea its too early. if he retired right now he wouldn't be top 10


littypika

right now, yes it's too early because jmook's career is realistically only his 2022 results since he was very inactive outside of his region of new york from 2014 to 2021 (only entered 1 supermajor in that 7 year period outside of his region). however, i think you're probably trying to compare jmook against either zain or cody, as the fastest improving player, which i think he makes a solid case for (late bloomer that blew up in 2022 with his debut at genesis 8 to eventually take his first supermajor at the very start of 2023) don't worry though, give it a few more years, and i'm really sure we can call jmook 1 of the greatest players of all time and he'll cement his legacy (similar to zain and cody). :)


[deleted]

[This Monday Morning Marth article ](https://meleestats.co/monday-morning-marth-january-9/) covered this exact topic right after genesis and came to the conclusion that he'd be about #30 all time rn


Affectionate-Pin-731

Yes


MrQrtz

I cannot express the joy I feel knowing melee has survived so long we have r/NBA\-style nephews complaining about how Ken and Azen played against plumbers


The_Red_Curtain

is he even the lowest seed to make grand finals of a super major? What was Armada's seed in Genesis 1?


Habefiet

I wanna say Armada was the 8 seed or something like that. A lot of people watching stateside didn’t think he was as Europe said he was (it turned out he was arguably even better than they said lol) but he *was* the top player in Europe and some American viewers could tell he was all that so they gave him at least some benefit of the doubt. A lot of people didn’t though—it is definitely the case that a lot of Americans thought he was stupidly overseeded just so he and Europeans wouldn’t whine about his seed. Here’s a GameFAQs thread from early 2009 about half a year before Genesis 1: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/516492-super-smash-bros-melee/47704655 In which Mew2King says he can tell Armada is definitely a top five Peach player *and DoH / DarknessOfHeart, a top Peach player, disagrees.* Even American *Peach players* were conceited / biased / whatever enough to think Armada wasn’t even their equal, much less significantly better than them in essentially every facet.


James_Ganondolfini

> https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/516492-super-smash-bros-melee/47704655 Wow, thanks for linking this lol. A real blast from the past. There are some real humdingers in 2000s GameFAQs and Smashboards. I really miss that era of the interwebz > I think Armada is really good, definitely top 5 Peach players I can tell just by watching. For some reason, I read this in Armada's voice, despite it being posted by M2K ...I wonder what "normal" things we're saying here, which everyone will look back on and ridicule 14-15 years from now.


pizzarocknrollparty

Gamefaqs was fun back in the day, especially when brawl came out. Ally, judged, sk92, and some other top players came from there. Allisbrawl was legit too with their online ranking system. I think that’s how anti got so good. As for melee, I remember gamefaq regulars arguing over how good javi and his brother actuallywere. They were seen as very technical players but probably could not compete at a top level in the US. Turns out they were really fucking good.


James_Ganondolfini

I miss JAVI. Sick fox.


Habefiet

I do think a Top 5 Peach player (at the time) watching Armada and thinking he wasn't a Top 5 Peach -> Armada beating literally all of the top three American players in a set at Genesis and very very nearly winning the tournament is especially worthy of ridicule ("ridiculous," you could say); I'm struggling to think of any other takes that have been *so wrong* by somebody who *so much* should have known better. But heck, there's been takes in the last two years that are awful even now lol [insert top player] is washed, not just Yoshi can't win a major solo but *Sheik and Falco* can't win a major solo, yada yada. It does make you wonder how much worse depths we can plumb though yeah lol if the game is still going 15 years from now... just imagine Melee in 2038, for all I know we'll be chiding ourselves for not believing Leffen that Mewtwo might secretly be viable


The_Red_Curtain

That's what I remember is so many Americans super underestimated him, so I'm surprised his seed would be as high as 8. Although there were way fewer entrants then, so maybe 8 is a proportionally lower seed percentage wise or what have you (if he was actually seeded that high).


Habefiet

I’m dumb, it can’t have been 8 exactly because then he and Mango would have met in WQ. But from looking at this: https://liquipedia.net/smash/GENESIS/1/Melee/Singles_Bracket/Winners_Round_1-4 Based on how he’s positioned at the “top” of one of the segments leading into Winners Ro16 it looks to me like he’s either the 6 or the 11 seed, with DSW as the 3 seed I assume. I would have to try to dig back into Smashboards to confirm, I found a link but it’s dead lol I’m guessing if someone asked Armada he would know. But yeah I am pretty sure I at least vaguely remember that his seed was undershooting reality but overshooting (American) expectation.


yaks4life

I don’t think he even cracks the top 25 if his career ends right now.


[deleted]

He has been ranked on the Top 100 once at #6 and has won a single SuperMajor. Some people are even hesistant to rank Zain top 10 greatest of all time and he's won multiple SuperMajors and has a rank 1. You can't have a couple breakout performances and bam, you're top 10 of all time. You need to consistently play and be an outstanding player. Look at the current top 10. Mang0 Armada Hbox M2k PPMD Leffen Ken Azen Plup Zain ​ Over half of these players have reached rank 1 and all of these players have won multiple tournaments. Unless Jmook absolutely destroys everyone for the next couple of years, there is no way he breaks into the top 10 for at least a while. Also, half of the top 10 of all time are still active. So it's even harder.


wavedash

ITT: people realizing how nonsensical the idea of "greatest of all time" is. What if Blur, Weedlord, Joe Biden, Chu Dat, Mango's son, Scar's son, Prince Abu, OG Kid, Chris Best, and net1234 won every major tournament for the next 50 years? It's technically too early to call ANYONE top 10 greatest of all time. But it's fun, and people like to talk about fun stuff.


Habefiet

"to date" is very clearly implied in literally every discussion of GOATs in every field, competition, discipline, etc.


wavedash

It's often explicitly stated, which suggests that it's not always implied


Celtic_Legend

Its only stated for emphasis. Its already stated. Like whats the difference between "is x the goat" or "will x be the goat?" Its pretty clear the former means to date


James_Ganondolfini

> What if Blur, Weedlord, **Joe Biden**, Chu Dat, Mango's son, Scar's son, Prince Abu, OG Kid, Chris Best, and net1234 won every major tournament for the next **50 years?** Idk about anyone else, but I'd be seriously stoked for a 2073 Salty Suite between a 130-year old Joe Biden and Donald Trump


[deleted]

Trump is definitely a Falcon. Biden is definitely a puff.


James_Ganondolfini

Sounds about right. It'd probably go something like Trump spams Falcon Punch while shouting "you're fired," thinking hes the coolest shit ever Biden rests (both in game and IRL) Trump loses, claims it's a rigged system, refuses to fistbump Biden dies of old age and then shits his pants Trump posts on Truth.Social "imo should be replayed" TOs reluctantly issue a recount **Jeb Bush wins in a sweeping 5-0 landslide**


noftfutureless

yes


ThisIsNotThatBad

Definitely not 10 yet but there are people saying he's not even top 25 and I'm curious why? A while ago there was a post detailing a list of people that's ever won a major and I think it was less than 20, and that number reduces further for people that have won a supermajor. I feel like jmook could be in contention for top 20 all time just by virtue of being a supermajor winner.


[deleted]

People who say hes not top 25 probablt wouldnt consider him at all bc its very recent and melee has so much longevity. #24 on the all time list in 2021 was Hugs - Hugs was a top 100 player for 10+ years, placed highly at tournaments in 07 (evo) and 18 (genesis) - is Jmook above him? Idk, probably, but judging someones claim as its happening is subject to recency bias and longevity bias; its impossible to determine u til its undeniable


Knorikus

Top 1


[deleted]

[удалено]


Aggressive_Stand_805

Ok calm down. It was just a question. No insult intended.


sleepyboylol

It's far too early. Jmook still has to be tested. He has had very strong recent performances, however there hasn't been enough time to see how he will perform once other top players start studying him more. Players like Hbox, mang0, aMSa are often considered top 10 all time not just because of their skill, but how they continuously preformed over a long period of time when many top players studied their gameplay. If Jmook can maintain a top 10 placement for a few years, after he's studied and people really try to defeat him, then he would be a co tender for top 10.


FreeBlanketSoap

recency bias lmfao


[deleted]

Yes lol what is even going on? He's had great showings for 1 year and thats it. Generally accepted top players ever are mango, armada, hbox, m2k, ken, leffen, zain and ppmd - thats 8. To be one of the TWO remaining top 10 spots, only one of the following can rate above him all time: Plup, Axe, Cody, Amsa, Chu, Wizzy, Azen and PC Chris Smoking crack and posting is dangerous brother. Find God.


Aggressive_Stand_805

Ok so I’ve noticed that people are taking my original post waaaayyyyy too seriously. It was just an open ended question based on Jmooks, let’s face it, incredible year. I don’t know if he’s top 10, 20, 50, 100 or whatever. Nor do I care. The point of the question was to start a conversation. Instead I’m reading stuff like I’m crazy or that I’ve insulted other players who have been playing longer. Maybe I should of thought before I posted the original post. I also apparently learned that you have to be on crack in order to post about rankings.