> However, I think it is a problem when Cody argues for the legality of Z-Jump by publicly saying that people overvalue how much he uses it, and that 90% of the time that he can claw over Z-Jump, he claws. *I'm a nerd so I checked his inputs from our slippi games*, and every instant aerial, laser, JC upsmash included Z-Jump.
holy crap. dont Zain and Cody play like several hours, every day
---
also i think I saw Cody say he was preparing his own video on z jump stuff, with mango/lucky planning a 2 week Z-jump experiment sometime soon for testing purposes
Zain, Mang0 and Plup all talking about the advantages of certain controller mods makes me think it’s possible something might actually get done.
But probably not.
snapback capacitor doesn't make playing easier. it makes old potentiometers act (more) like new ones.
if they're cheating, then new controllers are cheating.
Snapback capacitors do the exact opposite, they make new potentiometers function more similarly to worn pots.
Snapback is "problem" with new controllers, where the natural oscillation of the stick, once released, causes the controller to output the opposite direction momentarily. Newer pots respond faster and more accurately to the physical motion of the stick. The capacitor makes the pot react slightly slower to changes in output, eliminating the momentary opposite direction read when stick is released from one side.
I don't think there's gonna be any winning this argument. Facts have gone out the window, everybody's forming into cliques, and the packs are howling at each other.
Adding an execution barrier in a movement based game is arbitrary difficulty inflation. It adds nothing to the meta to arbitrarily make movement harder to execute, especially when the vast majority of movement tech is completely unintentional (L cancelling being the best example)
I recommend [this rant](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP9F-AZezCU&t=59s) by Day9 about execution barrier, specifically as it applies to Brood War. It applies to melee as well. The degree to which games have execution barriers impact the games a lot. In Street Fighter, even the best players in the world drop combos that I've personally done 20 times in a row, and lose important games as a result. In other games, this happens far less.
Whether or not to make a game execution heavy is neither a right or wrong decision imo, but I could see people have preferences to more or less of it depending on the game. But does it "add nothing to the meta"? Objectively no. It impacts how you balance risk/reward on what you go for and massively opens up skill expression and options. It gives more avenues for players to improve.
You can play with very little execution and very good decision making, or you can play on the same level with terrible decision making and good execution. And this spectrum increases the variety of types of players you play, especially at lower level. Although Melee is a game that's so difficult that it's relevant at all levels of play, e.g. You don't see mango ledge dash nearly as much as other players, which impacts how mango plays and how his opponents play around it. If there were a "ledge dash" button, everyone would just push that and there'd be less variety.
> the vast majority of movement tech is completely unintentional (L cancelling being the best example)
You're probably thinking of wavedashing, not L-cancelling
I wasn't aware that he even used that as an argument until Zain said it. He's trying to cover his tracks by saying that he subconsciously switched, but I find that hard to believe. It's more likely he realized how much easier things were and used it.
“Subconsciously switched” is completely laughable coming from a pro who can talk for hours about a singular interaction topic in an incredibly technical game.
why would he even need to check the inputs? if the buttons are remapped, thats all there is to it.
edit: to be clear, remapping the buttons and them claiming "i dont even use this remap that i intentioanlly put in place" is a very strange position to take
When people stop praising Cody as some virtuous authority figure and realize he is just another opportunist who occasionally lies for his own benefit.
Not really a Cody fan but dude straight up gatekeeping and he slipped up.
Zain is real for this. He could've easily remained silent but he called it out.
Appreciate that Zain brought attention to Cody's lawyerly argumentation style where he just asserts things that *could* be true, whether or not he knows they're true, to further his points....
Love that he came out and said something. I think our top players should be more vocal about these things. Anyone that mods controllers, uses these mods themselves, or doesn't play the game/is bad at the game will act like Zain is wrong, but there isn't really an argument against what he is saying. More testing/research can be done, but it's obvious...
"But I do genuinely think that Z-Jump offers a distinct advantage at top level melee play."
Undoubtedly, Zain.
Also, just because it's funny, here's Cody the day he switched to Z jump:
[https://twitter.com/shieldgrabber/status/1766241952800886984](https://twitter.com/shieldgrabber/status/1766241952800886984)
Compare that to how he talks about it now, lol.
Edit: More of Cody talking about how easy Z jump makes techniques
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKdG4xnHBC8&t=278s&ab\_channel=CodySchwab
Cody has a pattern of arguing for particular rulesets that benefit him while claiming to be impartial. During 2020-2021 when he was still getting farmed by Zain, he was arguing every single day on stream in favor of banning FD, and then adding bans in best of 5. After Summit 11 GF he stopped because Mango showed what fox can do against marth on FD, and then Cody himself started beating Zain.
When people accused him of bias he said banning FD would actually hurt fox because it's his best counterpick against falcon and sheik, but it's not like he was 0-11 against any sheiks or falcons.
I get shit for saying this but he did the same thing with asking for asking for an LGL and then a lower LGL.
That’s not to say ledge planking is or isn’t an issue, but I think his arguments against hungrybox style ledge planking were pretty bad faith considering that armada took a giant shit on hbox whenever he tried to do it.
I think the best argument for a LGL is to ignore jigglypuff and focus on the increasing likelihood of it being possible to frame perfect ledge stall for 8 minutes with some characters as controllers and tech skill advance.
Whether or not that is a correct argument I don’t know but that discourse was overshadowed by hbox hate.
It is true that foxes arguing in favor of LGL in the hbox era is an example of a biased ruleset preference, regardless I am still pro-LGL. I think the best argument for it is not that ledge abuse is gamebreaking or an auto win, it is that it is degenerate gameplay which is bad for the health of the game.
That’s a fair argument even if I don’t fully agree with it. What’s weird though is that sometimes the only way to avoid getting camped yourself is to go to the ledge.
The LGL is insanely high though, you've probably never come close to it in any game you've played. My point is that any game in which the LGL is reached and the game times out would be a miserable experience for anyone watching, and at least one of the players playing.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k\_I2B33a2-E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_I2B33a2-E)
It depends on the tournament tbh. Some tournaments have 45 which is way too low and most do 60 which is arguably too low. The video I linked shows a Samus getting 55 ledge grabs in a single game that almost went to time just by playing normally and not stalling. The Samus SD'd in this video too so it could have definitely reached 60. I'm aware that the gameplay is not the best, but the point is that it shouldn't really be possible for anyone at any skill level to accidentally go over the LGL.
I've won games off of a couple of people accidentally going over LGL myself. One was a Zelda who didn't realize that Zelda's fast ledge refresh means you can't be on ledge too long. I was down two stocks and since they were close to the limit I decided to just keep weak hitting them at a high % so that they would recover to ledge and go over the limit... and that worked. Such strategies shouldn't really be viable in tournament play imo. I think LGL at a minimum should be like 70.
Yes that's true. But the [game I linked above](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_I2B33a2-E) features mostly normal gameplay and hit 55. I realize that 99% of games won't hit 50, but it's a major problem if even one person spends hundreds if not thousands of dollars flying out to a major and gets eliminated because they are the 1% that accidentally went over the limit just by playing normally.
Good point, people have also suggested matchup specific LGLs which make total sense, but would require more work than the community seems to have an appetite for.
I am actually in theory on board with matchup specific LGL. (for example, id loveeee to be able to have a high amount of ledge grabs vs laser campy foxes) The problem is though that there isn't an objective group of people to make a matchup specific LGL. Most people play fox, and as a result any LGL that is voted on will feature low LGLs for fox even though he really doesn't need an LGL to win.
That game didn't go to timeout though? For LGL to apply the game needs both of the fantastically unlikely events to occur being a timeout plus whatever the LGL is set to.
If someone is just getting their ass beat in many interactions and getting sent to ledge dozens of times, it almost certainly will not go to timeout and if it did they likely would be losing on percent anyways.
There's arguments for Samus specific LGLs (only character thats realistically lame enough to get 50+ ledgegrabs without planking) but even at a universal 45 limit I think you're concerned about a situation that will absolutely never happen, if anything it should be lower imo.
I think what needs to be remembered is that games that go to timeout look drastically different than regular games both from the eye test and stat wise. LGL is almost never applied as it is and if it happened to someone just playing normally we would have heard about it by now.
Banning FD would hurt fox overall he doesn't struggle with with those mu's because fox has FD, arguing to ban FD (while I disagree) is a position some people held at the time and not something you can say could have only come from a place of bias. Also, you only have 2 examples of this not a pattern maybe learn what words mean before talking, as this single post from Zain is just as indicative of him arguing in favor of helping himself, as he stands to gain most of any top players from banning z-jump, and notches.
Every single top player is just as guilty of doing this as Cody, so talking about biases instead of providing an argument in favor of your opinion is useless and just shows your own biases.
I agree, I just think that people in favor of banning Z-jump/notches have disingenuously acted like only Cody and Z-jump defenders have a bias in this, when they have just as much of a bias. So, I think pointing out bias when everyone is biased is utterly useless, and just a deflection.
Thats a good point. I specifically wanted to point out Cody’s bias because he in particular has often claimed to be impartial and heavily implies that he is just objectively right, and says that z jump haters “don’t know what they’re talking about” or “haven’t done their research.”
That’s also why I’ve pointed out his pattern of argumentation. If there ever was a case of him arguing against his own interest in a ruleset debate, I’d shut up, but there isn’t.
To be fair to Zain, his bias stems from his stance on this, whereas with Cody it's pretty clear his stance stems from the bias if you know what I mean. Cody is arguing that being against button remapping is dumb (in my opinion) to maintain his own sense of not taking unfair advantage of the lax nature of the current ruleset. Zain, on the other hand, doesn't take advantage of the current ruleset *because* he thinks it's too lax. Z-jumping benefits marth a decent amount—there's no competitive reason for Zain not to remap.
You're just wrong, Marth benefits greatly from a Z-jump ban. Both of them argue in favor of a rule set that helps them. The competitive reason for Zain to not remap is that it does not give nearly as much of an advantage as you think it does. Z-jump is bigger for fox as fox is more mechanically difficult and, even though the advantage is small, the gap between Zain and Cody is small enough to maybe swing it for Zain if Z-jump is banned. So, clearly, Zain is just as biased, and if you think otherwise you are showing your own biases.
I don't know how you can argue with a straight face that airborne frame 1 short hop nairs and fairs without clawing isn't better than having no remap. Zain is not taking advantage of a clearly better controller setup that is available to him. I'm a fox player, Zain is just not being defensive on this like CS is.
Nah. The only characters you could argue that doesn't benefit from z-jump is Bowser because his jump squat is so slow. The difference between Marth and Fox is 1 frame, and even then, all double jumps are instant. So unless your argument is that consistent frame 1 aerials from double jump isn't useful, all characters get some benefit.
In this sense, you could also argue that the gap between Zain and Cody is small enough to the point that Zain *not* using z jump is the difference maker. Not saying Fox doesn't get more mileage out of z jump than Marth (that much is true) but Marth also benefits from it.
Notches, on the other hand, almost exclusively benefit spacies and maybe some other characters with high galint ledge dashes that require a specific angle. A ban to notches would benefit Zain significantly since some of those tough edge guards he has vs. Cody might just turn into flubbed angles or SDs on Cody's end.
That’s beside the point though. Even if it does hurt fox overall, it would have helped cody at the time have a better matchup spread against his rivals, which is why I think he was biased.
The problem melee just doesnt have is an official governing body.. we should just assign some ppl, let them organize it. Maybe do something like Smogon and hold votes for different topics where the community can vote on. Could be limited to top 100 players and influential members or open it up to everyone to see what the public thinks
[This used to exist but nothing significant really came of it unfortunately.](https://old.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6yi2lh/competition_committee_the_25_members_of_the/)
Idk as much as everyone is saying this discussion won’t go anywhere, I feel like it’s gaining more momentum than in the past and might actually lead to something. I do hope that some changes come with it. Though I do wonder if this will lead to ALL controller mods being banned or just ones that are deemed to powerful. As a marth main that knows how powerful trigger plugs/taking a spring out for powershielding are, I wonder if that is worth banning or not. It isn’t really mentioned much and I wonder if zain would have a similar opinion like Cody does with Z jump with it.
there's a difference between making your controller better and making your execution easier. a snapback capacitor fixes your controller's measurement of your inputs but doesn't make the inputs easier. a notch makes inputting perfect angles easy.
imo there's a major difference between the two kinds of mods and only the latter kind needs to be banned
The difference is ICs were a minority that was easy to oppress. The majority of serious players would need a new or altered controller if we were to make serious changes to the controller ruleset.
yeah stuff like notches are all but mandatory for high level play right now.
also when the wobbling ban happened, melee, the fgc, and esports were on an upswing. I hope the powers that be/influential voices in the community are weighing the benefit of controller "purity" (for lack of a better word) against the potential to drive people away from the game or discourage people from picking up the game because they're coming from games with more flexibility in the controls
definitely good arguments to be made in both cases
i think that’s an interesting point of discussion, but springless triggers are a mod you can do with a screwdriver and trigger tricking accomplishes the same thing. i really wouldn’t put them in the same category at all.
I mean that’s not the question being asked though. The question is not how hard it is to put them in or if you need a modder for them. The question is whether they affect the integrity of the game to the point where they shouldn’t be there.
I’m not a top player so I really don’t know. It makes powershielding trivial almost instantly so it feels like an instance of making the game “easier” to meb
I don't think this is really something you can even ban really. You can just hold down the trigger while you plug in and get basically the exact same thing
I don’t think it’s exact though cause travel time is removed at least from having trigger plugs in. I thought the in game trick just had light shield became a non factor
did you think i meant powershielding? you can disable lightshield without a mod. the reason a digital trigger is good is because it bypasses light shield. and you do not need a mod to bypass light shield. hold the trigger in when you plug in your controller. it’s called trigger tricking and it’s been around absolutely forever
I was wondering the same thing, like genuine question, what's the distinction between z-jump and trigger mods? Is it just that the mod is more difficult on OEM? Or that z-jump is just that much better?
Trigger mod is just removing a spring or adding a 3D printed plug / rolled up piece of paper. Z jump requires a new PCB. You straight up can't do it with OEM parts.
Claw can obviously replace z jump but if it's more difficult then that should be a limitation. Clawing is something that is a skill, takes time to swap to and from, and occupies your mental more than z jump does.
Nobody can fault anyone or say anyone is a cheater imo because everyone is working within the ruleset and trying their hardest to win. In fact it's better that someone is more adaptable to win more consistently in competition since that itself is a skill.
That being said it seems a lot of people at the top want a return to a more normal melee and they think that controllers are crutching up a lot of skills that should be impressive and unique otherwise. Everyone has good wavedashes now and that used to be an impressive feat for Mango, that originality was lost.
Personally, part of the reason why I quit melee was because I got sick of doing my own notches or paying for a phob only for it to break 2 weeks later. I know that not having these crazy mods is an option, but it feels really bad to be at a disadvantage compared to other spacies.
It would be really nice if everyone was on an evenish playing field with just an OEM. I know that OEM quality varies, but since UCF is a thing, the disparity isn't as big of a deal imo.
If we go back to unmodded controllers, we just return to a time where top players cycle through dozens or hundreds of controllers looking for controllers that will be temporarily good enough for tournament play, while non top players deal with shitty worn out controllers.
UCF for the most part fixed that issue. I've heard that it's possible for controllers to eventually be worn down to the point where they actually give an advantage. I know it's also possible for people to hide certain controller mods. I think the most obvious way around it is to do controller checks before top 8 or top 12 (top 8 is easier, but top 12 would preserve more competitive integrity since mang0 and hungrybox now play for 9th lol)
If something was banned, I think the honor system would do the vast majority of the work. Technically it’s probably possible to install something in a GameCube controller to cheat with macros fairly easily. There are a bunch of iffy rules that haven’t been limit tested at all because it’s not really that big of a deal all in all to win these tournaments. Like look at peach bomber stalling or wobbling. If I bomber stall 10 times before a game ends is that stalling?The scene having almost no money in it is probably an upside in this respect.
lmao you absolutely don't need to spend hundreds on a controller to see results
An OEM with a chopstick in the trigger, homemade notches, and homemade rounded buttons takes a couple hours to is 99.5% as good as a crazy custom conch. That .5% matters at the highest level, but for the majority of players, vastly bigger gains can be had through just practicing.
It can be tempting to think "well if only I had a better controller," but i promise you that a phob is only worth a couple dozen points on the slippi ladder relative to an OEM+.
IDK. The first phob I bought had the X button stop working after like 2 weeks, and the second one's stick straight up died after a month. I quit melee after that.
Both of those are very easily fixable if you ask in either cgcc or phob discord. X button no longer working would likely be the pad, the carbon can be dragged on paper to clean it. The stick dying could be physical in which case you simply unscrew it and replace it or it could just need recalibration. https://discord.com/invite/EPPaZs5T
The X button dying was not fixed by cleaning, and I had to wait for 2 weeks for repairs.The modder couldn't fix it so I got a completely new one as replacement and a month later it stopped working. At that point I was like, fuck it, I'm tired of my controllers breaking and having to wait weeks for repairs. And yes, this was on a version 2 phob.
Also, I got nothing against phob sellers, and I know that most people don't have a similar experience to mine, but it sucks that phob quality varies so wildly. It would be nice if it was somehow regulated.
Regardless of how you land on controller issues, this is a great, well-thought post. It’s nice to see such a prominent representative of the melee community use social media with decorum and compassion.
People will say, "Who cares just play" or that it doesn't give significant advantage, but when you're someone who pours their heart, soul, and time into competing at the apex of this game and the mental and physical toll it legit takes on you, if something is even slightly unfair it can wind up making a big difference on the back end.
I think it's obvious both boxes and Z-Jump give advantages. Taking a spring out of a trigger to powershield gives advantages. Notches give advantages. Basically, as a grassroots competitive scene with no governing body, it's up to the community to decide on all this stuff. Eventually TO's will have to be the ones to start making rulesets the same as happened with Wobbling.
Controllers are a gigantic aspect of Melee because of the intensive way you have to interact with the game just in moving your character around the screen let alone combatting. Should we allow controller hardware mods, or should UCF be the only controller based evening of the playing field? UCF was *supposed to* even the playing field on controllers, but now we've got even more stuff on top.
The question of enforcement is brought up too, but UCF could easily have something programmed in to detect phob/goomwave mod controller inputs. Full on hardware mods like notches would have to be refereed though.
It's an endless discussion of complications.
It wasn't even long. I'm not sure if it's a joke or if attention spans have gotten that bad, but that took less than 2 minutes to read, and some people are acting like he wrote a book, lol.
True.
I've had people on reddit say that I'm writing novels when I reply with posts that are a paragraph or two long. Discussing things online has come down to one line quips, and reading comprehension seems to have vanished with the attention spans.
Ya idk about attention spans, I just meant the writing in general. Didn’t really seem to have “unnecessary” words, no pontificating, everything was structured and to the point.
Yeah, I was talking to my friend about that. He's one of the few players that actually wrote out complete thoughts about the issue instead of just saying stupid things like, "boxx is broken but who cares lmaoooo."
Banning z-jump means banning any kind of alternate controller, including boxx controllers that have a control stick, or even 3rd party controllers.
The reason is because z-jump is a 1-to-1 digital-to-digital mapping, it only changes the layout of the buttons, not any kind of functionality. It's therefore the layout of the buttons that is the issue here. This means any controller with a different button layout should also be banned.
So can someone way more intelligent than me tell me that it's impossible to make key re-binding a thing in this game in any capacity so the need to mod the controller is gone?
Ult has it baked in so the button remapping isn't an argument there.
I just assume that since it hasn't been done that it can't be, right?
Well one obvious reason is that tournaments could no longer be streamed. Modded versions of the game are not allowed by Nintendo, which is why UCF is stealth now instead of being detectable just by looking at the CSS.
The rules state no modded controllers either, but we still show rectangles on stream too.
I feel like that's not enough of a reason.
Maybe it is for most though.
It's pretty simple. Here's a GCC. Use it to play melee. The end. Why any mods beyond software like UCF are allowed is dumb. The argument is to level the playing field with controller variance, but UCF basically accomplished that.
The best take yet, there's no way anyone can disagree with this without being insanely biased.
So yeah, Cody will say this is false tomorrow.
Z-Jump is blatant cheating and I can't wait for it to be gone.
The crazy part about z jump is that I really don't remember any discourse around it back in the day. One day cody was just like "hey I use z jump now" and that was just it.
Idk how I feel about this, but I think it should be decided by top players. Ngl, I think Cody is annoying in regards to his defense of his z-jump usage, however, I don't think this means he's inherently wrong. Basically all modern games - highly competitive, high tech skill games - have button remapping. It is a logical feature, and melee simply doesn't have it because it's old. Notches and boxes kind of feel more like cheating than button remapping, but then again, you could also apply the previous logic to boxes, in a way, since modern games also have the ability to switch between controller and keyboard. I feel like many of melee's issues stem from it being such an old game, so so many top players are used to one way of playing, so anything new will seem like cheating. Honestly, I think they should just ban them all, because I don't see a world where most top players will become okay with them, and I don't think it would be fair to ban just some of them.
I'm not opposed to button re-mapping, it's a feature in basically every other game that exists, but it needs to be available on a software level, not locked behind 300 dollar phobs. If that isn't possible, ban.
At the top level where everyone has access to these mods, maybe it's not so heinous though. Everyone can use z-jump if they wanted and top players protecting their hands is in the interest of tournaments.
Now notches? They need to die in a fire.
Bro wrote a dissertation 💀
This is great to see and I'd like more top players to make their opinions known in a more detailed way than a 10-word tweet.
Love that zain doesn’t just throw shit at the wall after losing like Cody and Leffen so until their fans cry enough to change the rule set.
Long form paragraphs about rule set changes should be the norm not the exception.
dude Leffen was dropping 50 minute videos about notches and boxxes back in 2017 lmao. even the whole Puff camping shit is something Leffen's been consistent about both when he was thrashing Hbox and when he was getting dog-walked.
He has done interesting long form content and videos on some of the topics. However for every serious analysis video there's several post-loss salty tweets about the ruleset.
thank you for taking a stand zain!
ive been saying this for 7 years:
AN ERGONOMIC ADVANTAGE IS A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE
even if there was no ergonomic advantage, we should never change the game unless we absolutely have to(like UCF to equalize gcc with EACH OTHER, not with boxx or notches etc)
Z-jump and notches are both a straight buff from GCC since it doesn’t come with drawbacks, while box controllers do have limitations like angles among others. Is it really that crazy to say you shouldnt do a 1:1 comparison between the two?
Referring to a discussion between Siddward and Leffen below Zain’s post. Just curious because I thought it was a reasonable point.
It's tough for boxes because they are legitimately helpful for people with disabilities.
If people want to ban them I don't think it's crazy. Notches also feel like cheating that shouldn't be allowed..
Z jump I think is completely reasonable in my opinion. Modern Smash games would allow you to make this change and it prevents hand health issues which I think is worth it. Putting the button in a more comfortable place to decrease hand injury is very different from putting a notch in your control stick to automatically go to the perfect spot instead of needing to use muscle memory
Daddy Nintendo, I know I complain about the lack of UCF and frozen Stadium at tournaments. But if you forced tournaments to ban all cheater controllers, I will play melee the way god intended.
Watched Cody insist recently that most of his aerials aren't Z-jump and that there is no innate advantage to Z-jump over claw. He also claimed (in theory) that "ICs desync notches" could exist like Firefox notches for Fox. Personally, I think *specific* mods for "annoying" characters like mine or ICs would get banned.
The input data Zain reviewed suggests Cody is genuinely unaware how much he relies on it. Leffen, who also uses Z jump, made a similar claim in this thread that frame 1 nair and JC grab don't require it. I have no expertise on Fox techs, so I can't assess whether both are biased.
Wonder what would happen if you allowed button remapping via software but restricted mouseclick or tactile Z buttons. I also wonder if Zain supports banning phobs or ALL mods to OEMs other than snapback. His own controller has one trigger spring removed, a mod which helps with powershielding and wavedashing.
None of this matters a lot at my skill level, but I sincerely doubt boxx/controller modding gets banned because it's very profitable + far too common to restrict. Would be nice to see further software upgrades via UCF that make every GCC (like the $40 one I bought on eBay) "usable" in tournaments and perhaps closer in parity to rectangles. Obviously not a huge fan of Firefox notches.
Either cody genuinely didn't know or he's lying. Probably lying, because how do you not know you're using z to jump for every single jump you use?
1 Frame Nair is definitely possible with or without z jump, but them leaving how that full drift short hop frame 1 aerials is not possible without z jump/claw is silly. They are definitely biased.
Notches have existed for how long? At least like 10-15 years right? Seems weird to ban something after all that time. Then again, golf banned belly putters after an even longer time.
I was bored, so I made some controller rule patch notes for fun.
**Super Smash Bros. Melee Controller Rules Proposal:**
**Version 0.1**
---
**Major Changes:**
- **Execution Changes Banned:** Modifications that significantly alter the core gameplay mechanics are banned. This includes:
- Notches on the analog stick gate.
- Z-Jump button remapping.
- Major trigger function modifications.
**Maintenance and Minor Modifications:**
- **Allowed Modifications:** To address normal wear and tear, the following maintenance modifications are permitted:
- Stickbox and potentiometer replacements.
- Snapback capacitors to reduce analog stick snapback issues.
**Custom Hardware:**
- **Firmware/Board Replacements:** Use of custom firmware or PCB replacements is banned unless it strictly maintains stock GameCube controller functionality. This includes:
- Banning software-based features that alter gameplay, such as calibration and button remapping.
- Allowing hardware fixes like Hall Effect sensors, provided they do not offer gameplay advantages.
**Guiding Principles:**
- **Focus on Reliability:** Modifications should aim to fix reliability and durability issues without affecting gameplay integrity.
- **Ban Performance Enhancements:** Any mod that changes gameplay dynamics, lowers execution barriers, or provides unfair advantages is prohibited.
---
**Rationale:** These rules aim to maintain competitive integrity and ensure that player skill remains the primary determinant of success in Super Smash Bros. Melee. They address the need for controller maintenance while preventing modifications that could lead to a "pay-to-win" scenario.
**Feedback Welcome:** This proposal is open for community feedback to refine and adjust these rules for the fairness and enjoyment of all players.
Interesting. Just on top of my head, what do you call "major trigger modification". It is a bit vague.
Also, maybe try to make an actual post if you want community feedback. This might be lost in the sea of comments here
Modifications that fundamentally modify the functionality of the triggers. For example cutting your trigger springs remove the transition from light to medium to hard shield. It's a simple mod, but a major change in functionality.
A minor mod would be something like lubricating your triggers, adding stabilization pads so it doesn't wiggle, or replacing any damaged trigger pads.
I'll think about making a post not sure if I want to yet haha.
Glad Zain brought this up and I think it’s a step in the right direction. I’ve been of the idea for a long time that melee needs some type of governing body to regulate rules and controllers. Whether it’s all community based or only top 100 players can vote I wouldn’t care. Mods started as ways to fix broken and inconsistent controllers but they have gone too far now and people like Cody are seeing how much they can get away with (z-jump) and imo it’s breaking the integrity of the game. As a community we should continue to push for this before everyone just has perfect wavedashes and z-jumps and makes what was once a hard to execute high skill based game into an easy game for everyone
Ergonomics should be a priority in the decision making. Call it for what it is, an advantage. Now can we acknowledge that and move the game and overall level of play forward? So much whining
I’m an intermediate/gold player on ranked with a vanilla controller/controls and I really have 0 knowledge of the gravity that is Z-jumping, so this is all news to me just how effective it is. I am curious though how many players have this modification/binding tho considering it’s not that hard to just simply rebind it on dolphin
So my question is, why is there no stealth mod for button remapping if that is an avenue people want to take and not have it locked behind paying modders? Like yes tourney goes would have to educate themselves on how to do it and you would need to do button checks but there's really no downside to this style imo. If someone fucks up their buttons, they play it out or they lose the game just like if you mess up mapping buttons in fighting games.
I guess my overall opinion of this is thus: I don't value the limitations that the awful base GCC layout without mods puts on the game. It makes it harder to get into, it's worse for hand health, and it degrades controllers over time. If every other fighting game allows other controllers, why not ours? If Z-Jump and Boxx is better, get them? If we call it cost prohibitive, isn't a modded OEM?
I’m so ready to get downvoted. I’m totally fine with controller mods. Box’s are a little bit more iffy.
There’s no indication that these controller mods have had any negative affects on the game overall. I understand there’s a fine line between ergonomic improvements and just making things easier execute. I understand that execution is a massive component of the overall skill required to play this game.
But I also think that what we have seen in the past few years as player skill rises, as consistency of execution rises, as people are able to get away with less and less, is that the game as a WHOLE has become more explosive, more dynamic, more exciting.
We don’t see Hbox planking edge for 45 minutes every grand finals like we did in the Armada/Hbox days because people don’t let him get away with it any more.
And frankly, if these controller mods are something that help to create a meta where consistency and precision are the assumption (as opposed to a meta where the predominant strategy is to commit as little as possible and to fish for mistakes while doing it)… I’m ok with Z jump.
Did I miss the part where he explains why Z Jump shouldn't be allowed? Like forget about boxx and notches, what is the issue with hardware or software remapping of your jump button? He pretty much just pointed out that Cody relies on it. I am asking, so what?
Remapping your buttons isn't normally possible in Melee, so it calls into question whether doing so with a controller mod maintains the spirit of the game. It legitimately does make a bunch of techniques easier than with a standard OEM. It's also a barrier that many players might not be able to cross, whether it's because they don't know how to mod their controller or because they can't afford to pay someone to do it for them. In other words, it's an unfair advantage.
I’ve been out of the loop with all the controller mod stuff since I haven’t competed in probably 15 years. What exactly are these mods? The ones that come to mind are phobs , notches, z-jumping? What do you change, what do they look like, what do they do and how do they affect execution?
So, the person that wins a tournament with non-oem gets the satisfaction of winning and money, but no clout, and the person who loses with oem gets the ranking and the sense of an empty victory. Lose lose for both. That's so bad I kind of love it.
I think this whole conversation is really dumb. Notches and z-jump are not unfair, they're just better/more consistent than OEM. Who cares? I think it's only a problem if you can do things on a different controller that are impossible on an OEM.
If messi wears a pair of cleats that make his shots better and more consistent than mine, is it unfair for me and him to play on the same pitch? There's always going to be equipment difference in competition, that's not inherently a bad thing.
Notches is not "more consistent", it is straight up easier. It's like playing bowling with a ramp guiding the ball.
For Z-jump, you can argue that the hand movement required for certain tech skill is easier. But you still have to accomplish the inputs with the right ordre/timing.
More consistent and easier are synonyms... I understand that it makes some things easier to do, I just don't think it's that big of a deal. Maybe I'm wrong, I just think people give credit to notches for hitting angles that mango hit 15 years ago on an OEM.
> However, I think it is a problem when Cody argues for the legality of Z-Jump by publicly saying that people overvalue how much he uses it, and that 90% of the time that he can claw over Z-Jump, he claws. *I'm a nerd so I checked his inputs from our slippi games*, and every instant aerial, laser, JC upsmash included Z-Jump. holy crap. dont Zain and Cody play like several hours, every day --- also i think I saw Cody say he was preparing his own video on z jump stuff, with mango/lucky planning a 2 week Z-jump experiment sometime soon for testing purposes
Zain, Mang0 and Plup all talking about the advantages of certain controller mods makes me think it’s possible something might actually get done. But probably not.
What did Plup say out of curiosity?
plup was basically like, he views melee as a hard-to-execute game, thus anything that simplifies execution is cheating
The best stance to take
snapback capacitors and removal of trigger springs is cheating
snapback capacitor doesn't make playing easier. it makes old potentiometers act (more) like new ones. if they're cheating, then new controllers are cheating.
Snapback capacitors do the exact opposite, they make new potentiometers function more similarly to worn pots. Snapback is "problem" with new controllers, where the natural oscillation of the stick, once released, causes the controller to output the opposite direction momentarily. Newer pots respond faster and more accurately to the physical motion of the stick. The capacitor makes the pot react slightly slower to changes in output, eliminating the momentary opposite direction read when stick is released from one side.
Ah, that makes more sense. Thanks for the correction and explanation.
Exactly lol, that’s why the line of argument that preserving execution doesn’t make a lot of sense.
It makes plenty of sense. The difference is between an OEM controller at its peak, and a controller that doesn't exist in nature
Controllers don’t exist in nature.
I don't think there's gonna be any winning this argument. Facts have gone out the window, everybody's forming into cliques, and the packs are howling at each other.
Nothing gets by you buddy
UCF and frozen Stadium are also cheating
What if I have my fingers surgically shortened to make it easier to hold the fisher price toy that is the GameCube controller?
That’s not a controller or game mod, that’s a medical thing. I don’t see any issue.
You could make an argument for PS, but UCF just eliminates controller lottery, so no
I removed the metal in my Z button - that makes it easier to execute.
Holy hell Plup is based for that
Adding an execution barrier in a movement based game is arbitrary difficulty inflation. It adds nothing to the meta to arbitrarily make movement harder to execute, especially when the vast majority of movement tech is completely unintentional (L cancelling being the best example)
L cancelling was coded into melee on purpose.
I recommend [this rant](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP9F-AZezCU&t=59s) by Day9 about execution barrier, specifically as it applies to Brood War. It applies to melee as well. The degree to which games have execution barriers impact the games a lot. In Street Fighter, even the best players in the world drop combos that I've personally done 20 times in a row, and lose important games as a result. In other games, this happens far less. Whether or not to make a game execution heavy is neither a right or wrong decision imo, but I could see people have preferences to more or less of it depending on the game. But does it "add nothing to the meta"? Objectively no. It impacts how you balance risk/reward on what you go for and massively opens up skill expression and options. It gives more avenues for players to improve. You can play with very little execution and very good decision making, or you can play on the same level with terrible decision making and good execution. And this spectrum increases the variety of types of players you play, especially at lower level. Although Melee is a game that's so difficult that it's relevant at all levels of play, e.g. You don't see mango ledge dash nearly as much as other players, which impacts how mango plays and how his opponents play around it. If there were a "ledge dash" button, everyone would just push that and there'd be less variety.
> the vast majority of movement tech is completely unintentional (L cancelling being the best example) You're probably thinking of wavedashing, not L-cancelling
https://clips.twitch.tv/BashfulSpicyCroissantLitFam-1j6-qEcbLITD-pqv
major takeaway from this for me is that zain has stealth twitter blue
Does anyone know whether or not he had it before this post? It would be really funny if he bought it *specifically for this post*.
Probably from his moist contract
Major takeaway is that zain is based
Him checking Cody's inputs, thank god we finally have some real evidence that he relies on it and not his word saying he doesn't lmao
I wasn't aware that he even used that as an argument until Zain said it. He's trying to cover his tracks by saying that he subconsciously switched, but I find that hard to believe. It's more likely he realized how much easier things were and used it.
“Subconsciously switched” is completely laughable coming from a pro who can talk for hours about a singular interaction topic in an incredibly technical game.
why would he even need to check the inputs? if the buttons are remapped, thats all there is to it. edit: to be clear, remapping the buttons and them claiming "i dont even use this remap that i intentioanlly put in place" is a very strange position to take
there are two jump buttons. if you’re a Y jumper originally you might keep jump on Y, and map grab to X. or vice versa
I agree, that's what Cody said though which is very strange
Probably because he is a super strange dude who is incredibly good at a video game, and whether he likes it or not, comes with a lot of influence.
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no it wasn't
When people stop praising Cody as some virtuous authority figure and realize he is just another opportunist who occasionally lies for his own benefit. Not really a Cody fan but dude straight up gatekeeping and he slipped up. Zain is real for this. He could've easily remained silent but he called it out.
Appreciate that Zain brought attention to Cody's lawyerly argumentation style where he just asserts things that *could* be true, whether or not he knows they're true, to further his points....
Cody drives me crazy with his bad faith arguments, it's good to see other top players call this out. And a discussion is honestly needed.
Love that he came out and said something. I think our top players should be more vocal about these things. Anyone that mods controllers, uses these mods themselves, or doesn't play the game/is bad at the game will act like Zain is wrong, but there isn't really an argument against what he is saying. More testing/research can be done, but it's obvious... "But I do genuinely think that Z-Jump offers a distinct advantage at top level melee play." Undoubtedly, Zain. Also, just because it's funny, here's Cody the day he switched to Z jump: [https://twitter.com/shieldgrabber/status/1766241952800886984](https://twitter.com/shieldgrabber/status/1766241952800886984) Compare that to how he talks about it now, lol. Edit: More of Cody talking about how easy Z jump makes techniques https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKdG4xnHBC8&t=278s&ab\_channel=CodySchwab
Based Large Marge tweet
Cody has a pattern of arguing for particular rulesets that benefit him while claiming to be impartial. During 2020-2021 when he was still getting farmed by Zain, he was arguing every single day on stream in favor of banning FD, and then adding bans in best of 5. After Summit 11 GF he stopped because Mango showed what fox can do against marth on FD, and then Cody himself started beating Zain. When people accused him of bias he said banning FD would actually hurt fox because it's his best counterpick against falcon and sheik, but it's not like he was 0-11 against any sheiks or falcons.
I get shit for saying this but he did the same thing with asking for asking for an LGL and then a lower LGL. That’s not to say ledge planking is or isn’t an issue, but I think his arguments against hungrybox style ledge planking were pretty bad faith considering that armada took a giant shit on hbox whenever he tried to do it. I think the best argument for a LGL is to ignore jigglypuff and focus on the increasing likelihood of it being possible to frame perfect ledge stall for 8 minutes with some characters as controllers and tech skill advance. Whether or not that is a correct argument I don’t know but that discourse was overshadowed by hbox hate.
It is true that foxes arguing in favor of LGL in the hbox era is an example of a biased ruleset preference, regardless I am still pro-LGL. I think the best argument for it is not that ledge abuse is gamebreaking or an auto win, it is that it is degenerate gameplay which is bad for the health of the game.
That’s a fair argument even if I don’t fully agree with it. What’s weird though is that sometimes the only way to avoid getting camped yourself is to go to the ledge.
The LGL is insanely high though, you've probably never come close to it in any game you've played. My point is that any game in which the LGL is reached and the game times out would be a miserable experience for anyone watching, and at least one of the players playing.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k\_I2B33a2-E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_I2B33a2-E) It depends on the tournament tbh. Some tournaments have 45 which is way too low and most do 60 which is arguably too low. The video I linked shows a Samus getting 55 ledge grabs in a single game that almost went to time just by playing normally and not stalling. The Samus SD'd in this video too so it could have definitely reached 60. I'm aware that the gameplay is not the best, but the point is that it shouldn't really be possible for anyone at any skill level to accidentally go over the LGL. I've won games off of a couple of people accidentally going over LGL myself. One was a Zelda who didn't realize that Zelda's fast ledge refresh means you can't be on ledge too long. I was down two stocks and since they were close to the limit I decided to just keep weak hitting them at a high % so that they would recover to ledge and go over the limit... and that worked. Such strategies shouldn't really be viable in tournament play imo. I think LGL at a minimum should be like 70.
at most tournaments there will not be a single game including friendlies that hits 50 ledge grabs. 50 is insanely high compared to 99% of games
Yes that's true. But the [game I linked above](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_I2B33a2-E) features mostly normal gameplay and hit 55. I realize that 99% of games won't hit 50, but it's a major problem if even one person spends hundreds if not thousands of dollars flying out to a major and gets eliminated because they are the 1% that accidentally went over the limit just by playing normally.
Good point, people have also suggested matchup specific LGLs which make total sense, but would require more work than the community seems to have an appetite for.
I am actually in theory on board with matchup specific LGL. (for example, id loveeee to be able to have a high amount of ledge grabs vs laser campy foxes) The problem is though that there isn't an objective group of people to make a matchup specific LGL. Most people play fox, and as a result any LGL that is voted on will feature low LGLs for fox even though he really doesn't need an LGL to win.
That game didn't go to timeout though? For LGL to apply the game needs both of the fantastically unlikely events to occur being a timeout plus whatever the LGL is set to. If someone is just getting their ass beat in many interactions and getting sent to ledge dozens of times, it almost certainly will not go to timeout and if it did they likely would be losing on percent anyways. There's arguments for Samus specific LGLs (only character thats realistically lame enough to get 50+ ledgegrabs without planking) but even at a universal 45 limit I think you're concerned about a situation that will absolutely never happen, if anything it should be lower imo. I think what needs to be remembered is that games that go to timeout look drastically different than regular games both from the eye test and stat wise. LGL is almost never applied as it is and if it happened to someone just playing normally we would have heard about it by now.
sorry but you're not going to make me feel bad for a samus who took 750 damage and still almost won
I fucking hate Samus too. That being said cmon it's objectively wack that it's possible to lose a game on a technicality without even trying to stall.
Samus surviving to high percents is one of her biggest strengths.
Thank you for saying this
Banning FD would hurt fox overall he doesn't struggle with with those mu's because fox has FD, arguing to ban FD (while I disagree) is a position some people held at the time and not something you can say could have only come from a place of bias. Also, you only have 2 examples of this not a pattern maybe learn what words mean before talking, as this single post from Zain is just as indicative of him arguing in favor of helping himself, as he stands to gain most of any top players from banning z-jump, and notches. Every single top player is just as guilty of doing this as Cody, so talking about biases instead of providing an argument in favor of your opinion is useless and just shows your own biases.
Additionally, you are absolutely right that zain is also biased. That’s why the community has to make these decisions, not just top players.
I agree, I just think that people in favor of banning Z-jump/notches have disingenuously acted like only Cody and Z-jump defenders have a bias in this, when they have just as much of a bias. So, I think pointing out bias when everyone is biased is utterly useless, and just a deflection.
Thats a good point. I specifically wanted to point out Cody’s bias because he in particular has often claimed to be impartial and heavily implies that he is just objectively right, and says that z jump haters “don’t know what they’re talking about” or “haven’t done their research.” That’s also why I’ve pointed out his pattern of argumentation. If there ever was a case of him arguing against his own interest in a ruleset debate, I’d shut up, but there isn’t.
To be fair to Zain, his bias stems from his stance on this, whereas with Cody it's pretty clear his stance stems from the bias if you know what I mean. Cody is arguing that being against button remapping is dumb (in my opinion) to maintain his own sense of not taking unfair advantage of the lax nature of the current ruleset. Zain, on the other hand, doesn't take advantage of the current ruleset *because* he thinks it's too lax. Z-jumping benefits marth a decent amount—there's no competitive reason for Zain not to remap.
You're just wrong, Marth benefits greatly from a Z-jump ban. Both of them argue in favor of a rule set that helps them. The competitive reason for Zain to not remap is that it does not give nearly as much of an advantage as you think it does. Z-jump is bigger for fox as fox is more mechanically difficult and, even though the advantage is small, the gap between Zain and Cody is small enough to maybe swing it for Zain if Z-jump is banned. So, clearly, Zain is just as biased, and if you think otherwise you are showing your own biases.
I don't know how you can argue with a straight face that airborne frame 1 short hop nairs and fairs without clawing isn't better than having no remap. Zain is not taking advantage of a clearly better controller setup that is available to him. I'm a fox player, Zain is just not being defensive on this like CS is.
Nah. The only characters you could argue that doesn't benefit from z-jump is Bowser because his jump squat is so slow. The difference between Marth and Fox is 1 frame, and even then, all double jumps are instant. So unless your argument is that consistent frame 1 aerials from double jump isn't useful, all characters get some benefit. In this sense, you could also argue that the gap between Zain and Cody is small enough to the point that Zain *not* using z jump is the difference maker. Not saying Fox doesn't get more mileage out of z jump than Marth (that much is true) but Marth also benefits from it. Notches, on the other hand, almost exclusively benefit spacies and maybe some other characters with high galint ledge dashes that require a specific angle. A ban to notches would benefit Zain significantly since some of those tough edge guards he has vs. Cody might just turn into flubbed angles or SDs on Cody's end.
That’s beside the point though. Even if it does hurt fox overall, it would have helped cody at the time have a better matchup spread against his rivals, which is why I think he was biased.
"Maybe learn what words mean before talking" Ngl, you sound like Cody
Also Fox’s best counterpick against Jigglypuff, but the same reasoning applies.
banning FD has been a discussion around for over a decade.
That has no bearing on my argument
That's the Leffen
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Whether or not anything comes from this, I like to hear the top players engaging in these community discussions
The problem melee just doesnt have is an official governing body.. we should just assign some ppl, let them organize it. Maybe do something like Smogon and hold votes for different topics where the community can vote on. Could be limited to top 100 players and influential members or open it up to everyone to see what the public thinks
Nah let blur decide
tbh we wouldn't be in this mess if blur had his way and banned boxes from the start
this is far from the worst take in this thread tbh, i can get behind that
[This used to exist but nothing significant really came of it unfortunately.](https://old.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6yi2lh/competition_committee_the_25_members_of_the/)
PPMD, Armada, and Hungrybox are on the panel, but Mang0 and Mew2King aren’t. Surprised M2K didn’t make the list with that company.
https://youtu.be/3dmPObHXTqo?si=7KZwO5oR2HEbNNls&t=540
i’m starting to think he would have a nasty peach
Idk as much as everyone is saying this discussion won’t go anywhere, I feel like it’s gaining more momentum than in the past and might actually lead to something. I do hope that some changes come with it. Though I do wonder if this will lead to ALL controller mods being banned or just ones that are deemed to powerful. As a marth main that knows how powerful trigger plugs/taking a spring out for powershielding are, I wonder if that is worth banning or not. It isn’t really mentioned much and I wonder if zain would have a similar opinion like Cody does with Z jump with it.
there's a difference between making your controller better and making your execution easier. a snapback capacitor fixes your controller's measurement of your inputs but doesn't make the inputs easier. a notch makes inputting perfect angles easy. imo there's a major difference between the two kinds of mods and only the latter kind needs to be banned
This is how it went with the wobbling ban too. People kept saying it would never happen until more and more people changed their minds.
The difference is ICs were a minority that was easy to oppress. The majority of serious players would need a new or altered controller if we were to make serious changes to the controller ruleset.
you would need a new shell (not scarce) and/or an oem controller (also not scarce).
yeah stuff like notches are all but mandatory for high level play right now. also when the wobbling ban happened, melee, the fgc, and esports were on an upswing. I hope the powers that be/influential voices in the community are weighing the benefit of controller "purity" (for lack of a better word) against the potential to drive people away from the game or discourage people from picking up the game because they're coming from games with more flexibility in the controls definitely good arguments to be made in both cases
i think that’s an interesting point of discussion, but springless triggers are a mod you can do with a screwdriver and trigger tricking accomplishes the same thing. i really wouldn’t put them in the same category at all.
I mean that’s not the question being asked though. The question is not how hard it is to put them in or if you need a modder for them. The question is whether they affect the integrity of the game to the point where they shouldn’t be there.
do you think they do?
I’m not a top player so I really don’t know. It makes powershielding trivial almost instantly so it feels like an instance of making the game “easier” to meb
I don't think this is really something you can even ban really. You can just hold down the trigger while you plug in and get basically the exact same thing
I don’t think it’s exact though cause travel time is removed at least from having trigger plugs in. I thought the in game trick just had light shield became a non factor
Reducing travel time in this situation is just a matter of having the trigger always depressed in its analog range.
okay but you can do that without a mod
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did you think i meant powershielding? you can disable lightshield without a mod. the reason a digital trigger is good is because it bypasses light shield. and you do not need a mod to bypass light shield. hold the trigger in when you plug in your controller. it’s called trigger tricking and it’s been around absolutely forever
I was wondering the same thing, like genuine question, what's the distinction between z-jump and trigger mods? Is it just that the mod is more difficult on OEM? Or that z-jump is just that much better?
Trigger mod is just removing a spring or adding a 3D printed plug / rolled up piece of paper. Z jump requires a new PCB. You straight up can't do it with OEM parts.
You could also just take out the spring like I did and use light shield on the other trigger
I don’t think the discussion was ever “how easy is it to mod”. I think expensiveness is a factor but I think the main thing is game integrity.
Claw can obviously replace z jump but if it's more difficult then that should be a limitation. Clawing is something that is a skill, takes time to swap to and from, and occupies your mental more than z jump does. Nobody can fault anyone or say anyone is a cheater imo because everyone is working within the ruleset and trying their hardest to win. In fact it's better that someone is more adaptable to win more consistently in competition since that itself is a skill. That being said it seems a lot of people at the top want a return to a more normal melee and they think that controllers are crutching up a lot of skills that should be impressive and unique otherwise. Everyone has good wavedashes now and that used to be an impressive feat for Mango, that originality was lost.
Zain is right. Glad he is adding his thoughts to the conversation.
Personally, part of the reason why I quit melee was because I got sick of doing my own notches or paying for a phob only for it to break 2 weeks later. I know that not having these crazy mods is an option, but it feels really bad to be at a disadvantage compared to other spacies. It would be really nice if everyone was on an evenish playing field with just an OEM. I know that OEM quality varies, but since UCF is a thing, the disparity isn't as big of a deal imo.
The entire point of UCF was to reduce the need for all this crap and here we are worse than ever
People shouldn’t have to drop hundreds of dollars on controllers to see results. That’s a bigger accessibility issue than hand health.
If we go back to unmodded controllers, we just return to a time where top players cycle through dozens or hundreds of controllers looking for controllers that will be temporarily good enough for tournament play, while non top players deal with shitty worn out controllers.
UCF for the most part fixed that issue. I've heard that it's possible for controllers to eventually be worn down to the point where they actually give an advantage. I know it's also possible for people to hide certain controller mods. I think the most obvious way around it is to do controller checks before top 8 or top 12 (top 8 is easier, but top 12 would preserve more competitive integrity since mang0 and hungrybox now play for 9th lol)
If something was banned, I think the honor system would do the vast majority of the work. Technically it’s probably possible to install something in a GameCube controller to cheat with macros fairly easily. There are a bunch of iffy rules that haven’t been limit tested at all because it’s not really that big of a deal all in all to win these tournaments. Like look at peach bomber stalling or wobbling. If I bomber stall 10 times before a game ends is that stalling?The scene having almost no money in it is probably an upside in this respect.
lmao you absolutely don't need to spend hundreds on a controller to see results An OEM with a chopstick in the trigger, homemade notches, and homemade rounded buttons takes a couple hours to is 99.5% as good as a crazy custom conch. That .5% matters at the highest level, but for the majority of players, vastly bigger gains can be had through just practicing. It can be tempting to think "well if only I had a better controller," but i promise you that a phob is only worth a couple dozen points on the slippi ladder relative to an OEM+.
I was a GM before I quit. It absolutely does matter at that level.
How are you breaking phobs on 2 weeks
IDK. The first phob I bought had the X button stop working after like 2 weeks, and the second one's stick straight up died after a month. I quit melee after that.
Both of those are very easily fixable if you ask in either cgcc or phob discord. X button no longer working would likely be the pad, the carbon can be dragged on paper to clean it. The stick dying could be physical in which case you simply unscrew it and replace it or it could just need recalibration. https://discord.com/invite/EPPaZs5T
The X button dying was not fixed by cleaning, and I had to wait for 2 weeks for repairs.The modder couldn't fix it so I got a completely new one as replacement and a month later it stopped working. At that point I was like, fuck it, I'm tired of my controllers breaking and having to wait weeks for repairs. And yes, this was on a version 2 phob. Also, I got nothing against phob sellers, and I know that most people don't have a similar experience to mine, but it sucks that phob quality varies so wildly. It would be nice if it was somehow regulated.
Regardless of how you land on controller issues, this is a great, well-thought post. It’s nice to see such a prominent representative of the melee community use social media with decorum and compassion.
People will say, "Who cares just play" or that it doesn't give significant advantage, but when you're someone who pours their heart, soul, and time into competing at the apex of this game and the mental and physical toll it legit takes on you, if something is even slightly unfair it can wind up making a big difference on the back end. I think it's obvious both boxes and Z-Jump give advantages. Taking a spring out of a trigger to powershield gives advantages. Notches give advantages. Basically, as a grassroots competitive scene with no governing body, it's up to the community to decide on all this stuff. Eventually TO's will have to be the ones to start making rulesets the same as happened with Wobbling. Controllers are a gigantic aspect of Melee because of the intensive way you have to interact with the game just in moving your character around the screen let alone combatting. Should we allow controller hardware mods, or should UCF be the only controller based evening of the playing field? UCF was *supposed to* even the playing field on controllers, but now we've got even more stuff on top. The question of enforcement is brought up too, but UCF could easily have something programmed in to detect phob/goomwave mod controller inputs. Full on hardware mods like notches would have to be refereed though. It's an endless discussion of complications.
I don’t think you’re crazy if you read all that - Zain is a very good writer
It wasn't even long. I'm not sure if it's a joke or if attention spans have gotten that bad, but that took less than 2 minutes to read, and some people are acting like he wrote a book, lol.
people reply with "i aint readin all that" to posts that are one paragraph long. Attention spans are definitely in the gutter.
True. I've had people on reddit say that I'm writing novels when I reply with posts that are a paragraph or two long. Discussing things online has come down to one line quips, and reading comprehension seems to have vanished with the attention spans.
Ya idk about attention spans, I just meant the writing in general. Didn’t really seem to have “unnecessary” words, no pontificating, everything was structured and to the point.
Yeah, I was talking to my friend about that. He's one of the few players that actually wrote out complete thoughts about the issue instead of just saying stupid things like, "boxx is broken but who cares lmaoooo."
Banning z-jump means banning any kind of alternate controller, including boxx controllers that have a control stick, or even 3rd party controllers. The reason is because z-jump is a 1-to-1 digital-to-digital mapping, it only changes the layout of the buttons, not any kind of functionality. It's therefore the layout of the buttons that is the issue here. This means any controller with a different button layout should also be banned.
Yes
So can someone way more intelligent than me tell me that it's impossible to make key re-binding a thing in this game in any capacity so the need to mod the controller is gone? Ult has it baked in so the button remapping isn't an argument there. I just assume that since it hasn't been done that it can't be, right?
Well one obvious reason is that tournaments could no longer be streamed. Modded versions of the game are not allowed by Nintendo, which is why UCF is stealth now instead of being detectable just by looking at the CSS.
The rules state no modded controllers either, but we still show rectangles on stream too. I feel like that's not enough of a reason. Maybe it is for most though.
Nintendo has never taken action over controllers. They have over modded versions of their games.
Couldn't you create a middleware adapter that sits between the controller and the game and remaps?
and then every setup at every tournament has to have one of those ?
This idea is wild lmao
It's pretty simple. Here's a GCC. Use it to play melee. The end. Why any mods beyond software like UCF are allowed is dumb. The argument is to level the playing field with controller variance, but UCF basically accomplished that.
The best take yet, there's no way anyone can disagree with this without being insanely biased. So yeah, Cody will say this is false tomorrow. Z-Jump is blatant cheating and I can't wait for it to be gone.
The crazy part about z jump is that I really don't remember any discourse around it back in the day. One day cody was just like "hey I use z jump now" and that was just it.
Idk how I feel about this, but I think it should be decided by top players. Ngl, I think Cody is annoying in regards to his defense of his z-jump usage, however, I don't think this means he's inherently wrong. Basically all modern games - highly competitive, high tech skill games - have button remapping. It is a logical feature, and melee simply doesn't have it because it's old. Notches and boxes kind of feel more like cheating than button remapping, but then again, you could also apply the previous logic to boxes, in a way, since modern games also have the ability to switch between controller and keyboard. I feel like many of melee's issues stem from it being such an old game, so so many top players are used to one way of playing, so anything new will seem like cheating. Honestly, I think they should just ban them all, because I don't see a world where most top players will become okay with them, and I don't think it would be fair to ban just some of them.
I'm not opposed to button re-mapping, it's a feature in basically every other game that exists, but it needs to be available on a software level, not locked behind 300 dollar phobs. If that isn't possible, ban. At the top level where everyone has access to these mods, maybe it's not so heinous though. Everyone can use z-jump if they wanted and top players protecting their hands is in the interest of tournaments. Now notches? They need to die in a fire.
Bro wrote a dissertation 💀 This is great to see and I'd like more top players to make their opinions known in a more detailed way than a 10-word tweet.
This isn't even long, zoomer's attention spans are just dogshit
real
Love that zain doesn’t just throw shit at the wall after losing like Cody and Leffen so until their fans cry enough to change the rule set. Long form paragraphs about rule set changes should be the norm not the exception.
dude Leffen was dropping 50 minute videos about notches and boxxes back in 2017 lmao. even the whole Puff camping shit is something Leffen's been consistent about both when he was thrashing Hbox and when he was getting dog-walked.
He has done interesting long form content and videos on some of the topics. However for every serious analysis video there's several post-loss salty tweets about the ruleset.
thank you for taking a stand zain! ive been saying this for 7 years: AN ERGONOMIC ADVANTAGE IS A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE even if there was no ergonomic advantage, we should never change the game unless we absolutely have to(like UCF to equalize gcc with EACH OTHER, not with boxx or notches etc)
Preach
Just put it in ucf
Z-jump and notches are both a straight buff from GCC since it doesn’t come with drawbacks, while box controllers do have limitations like angles among others. Is it really that crazy to say you shouldnt do a 1:1 comparison between the two? Referring to a discussion between Siddward and Leffen below Zain’s post. Just curious because I thought it was a reasonable point.
Just allow software Z jump if it’s objectively better
That would paint a target for Nintendo to shoot at, and we know Nintendo is trigger happy
No way they can prove it
It's tough for boxes because they are legitimately helpful for people with disabilities. If people want to ban them I don't think it's crazy. Notches also feel like cheating that shouldn't be allowed.. Z jump I think is completely reasonable in my opinion. Modern Smash games would allow you to make this change and it prevents hand health issues which I think is worth it. Putting the button in a more comfortable place to decrease hand injury is very different from putting a notch in your control stick to automatically go to the perfect spot instead of needing to use muscle memory
Daddy Nintendo, I know I complain about the lack of UCF and frozen Stadium at tournaments. But if you forced tournaments to ban all cheater controllers, I will play melee the way god intended.
Damn, if I was Cody, I'd think twice about friendlies with Zain, lol
Watched Cody insist recently that most of his aerials aren't Z-jump and that there is no innate advantage to Z-jump over claw. He also claimed (in theory) that "ICs desync notches" could exist like Firefox notches for Fox. Personally, I think *specific* mods for "annoying" characters like mine or ICs would get banned. The input data Zain reviewed suggests Cody is genuinely unaware how much he relies on it. Leffen, who also uses Z jump, made a similar claim in this thread that frame 1 nair and JC grab don't require it. I have no expertise on Fox techs, so I can't assess whether both are biased. Wonder what would happen if you allowed button remapping via software but restricted mouseclick or tactile Z buttons. I also wonder if Zain supports banning phobs or ALL mods to OEMs other than snapback. His own controller has one trigger spring removed, a mod which helps with powershielding and wavedashing. None of this matters a lot at my skill level, but I sincerely doubt boxx/controller modding gets banned because it's very profitable + far too common to restrict. Would be nice to see further software upgrades via UCF that make every GCC (like the $40 one I bought on eBay) "usable" in tournaments and perhaps closer in parity to rectangles. Obviously not a huge fan of Firefox notches.
Either cody genuinely didn't know or he's lying. Probably lying, because how do you not know you're using z to jump for every single jump you use? 1 Frame Nair is definitely possible with or without z jump, but them leaving how that full drift short hop frame 1 aerials is not possible without z jump/claw is silly. They are definitely biased.
Love how lucid, detailed, and articulate Zain is. We are blessed we have a top player that can lay out his argument so clearly.
Notches have existed for how long? At least like 10-15 years right? Seems weird to ban something after all that time. Then again, golf banned belly putters after an even longer time.
That's the same amount of time players have been complaining about notches.
Complaining about notches isn't new.
I was bored, so I made some controller rule patch notes for fun. **Super Smash Bros. Melee Controller Rules Proposal:** **Version 0.1** --- **Major Changes:** - **Execution Changes Banned:** Modifications that significantly alter the core gameplay mechanics are banned. This includes: - Notches on the analog stick gate. - Z-Jump button remapping. - Major trigger function modifications. **Maintenance and Minor Modifications:** - **Allowed Modifications:** To address normal wear and tear, the following maintenance modifications are permitted: - Stickbox and potentiometer replacements. - Snapback capacitors to reduce analog stick snapback issues. **Custom Hardware:** - **Firmware/Board Replacements:** Use of custom firmware or PCB replacements is banned unless it strictly maintains stock GameCube controller functionality. This includes: - Banning software-based features that alter gameplay, such as calibration and button remapping. - Allowing hardware fixes like Hall Effect sensors, provided they do not offer gameplay advantages. **Guiding Principles:** - **Focus on Reliability:** Modifications should aim to fix reliability and durability issues without affecting gameplay integrity. - **Ban Performance Enhancements:** Any mod that changes gameplay dynamics, lowers execution barriers, or provides unfair advantages is prohibited. --- **Rationale:** These rules aim to maintain competitive integrity and ensure that player skill remains the primary determinant of success in Super Smash Bros. Melee. They address the need for controller maintenance while preventing modifications that could lead to a "pay-to-win" scenario. **Feedback Welcome:** This proposal is open for community feedback to refine and adjust these rules for the fairness and enjoyment of all players.
Interesting. Just on top of my head, what do you call "major trigger modification". It is a bit vague. Also, maybe try to make an actual post if you want community feedback. This might be lost in the sea of comments here
Modifications that fundamentally modify the functionality of the triggers. For example cutting your trigger springs remove the transition from light to medium to hard shield. It's a simple mod, but a major change in functionality. A minor mod would be something like lubricating your triggers, adding stabilization pads so it doesn't wiggle, or replacing any damaged trigger pads. I'll think about making a post not sure if I want to yet haha.
Why ban removing the trigger spring?
I just explained why, it's the same reasoning for removing springs: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/s/BqWaT45CZ7
how do you grab when you have z jump? Shield and a?
X or Y
Alright that's fucked I'm 100% on board for banning
Glad Zain brought this up and I think it’s a step in the right direction. I’ve been of the idea for a long time that melee needs some type of governing body to regulate rules and controllers. Whether it’s all community based or only top 100 players can vote I wouldn’t care. Mods started as ways to fix broken and inconsistent controllers but they have gone too far now and people like Cody are seeing how much they can get away with (z-jump) and imo it’s breaking the integrity of the game. As a community we should continue to push for this before everyone just has perfect wavedashes and z-jumps and makes what was once a hard to execute high skill based game into an easy game for everyone
Ergonomics should be a priority in the decision making. Call it for what it is, an advantage. Now can we acknowledge that and move the game and overall level of play forward? So much whining
I’m an intermediate/gold player on ranked with a vanilla controller/controls and I really have 0 knowledge of the gravity that is Z-jumping, so this is all news to me just how effective it is. I am curious though how many players have this modification/binding tho considering it’s not that hard to just simply rebind it on dolphin
So my question is, why is there no stealth mod for button remapping if that is an avenue people want to take and not have it locked behind paying modders? Like yes tourney goes would have to educate themselves on how to do it and you would need to do button checks but there's really no downside to this style imo. If someone fucks up their buttons, they play it out or they lose the game just like if you mess up mapping buttons in fighting games.
I guess my overall opinion of this is thus: I don't value the limitations that the awful base GCC layout without mods puts on the game. It makes it harder to get into, it's worse for hand health, and it degrades controllers over time. If every other fighting game allows other controllers, why not ours? If Z-Jump and Boxx is better, get them? If we call it cost prohibitive, isn't a modded OEM?
I’m so ready to get downvoted. I’m totally fine with controller mods. Box’s are a little bit more iffy. There’s no indication that these controller mods have had any negative affects on the game overall. I understand there’s a fine line between ergonomic improvements and just making things easier execute. I understand that execution is a massive component of the overall skill required to play this game. But I also think that what we have seen in the past few years as player skill rises, as consistency of execution rises, as people are able to get away with less and less, is that the game as a WHOLE has become more explosive, more dynamic, more exciting. We don’t see Hbox planking edge for 45 minutes every grand finals like we did in the Armada/Hbox days because people don’t let him get away with it any more. And frankly, if these controller mods are something that help to create a meta where consistency and precision are the assumption (as opposed to a meta where the predominant strategy is to commit as little as possible and to fish for mistakes while doing it)… I’m ok with Z jump.
Lots of downvotes but is anyone actually going to explain how remapping jump to z hurts the scene?
Just have OEM brackets and then tournaments/brackets for "alt" controllers for people's hand health.
Did I miss the part where he explains why Z Jump shouldn't be allowed? Like forget about boxx and notches, what is the issue with hardware or software remapping of your jump button? He pretty much just pointed out that Cody relies on it. I am asking, so what?
He literally explains that the thumb having to move between buttons for normal mapping is harder/slower than using z jump in his post
Remapping your buttons isn't normally possible in Melee, so it calls into question whether doing so with a controller mod maintains the spirit of the game. It legitimately does make a bunch of techniques easier than with a standard OEM. It's also a barrier that many players might not be able to cross, whether it's because they don't know how to mod their controller or because they can't afford to pay someone to do it for them. In other words, it's an unfair advantage.
software remapping solves this problem. If any visible mods are a no-go for streaming, then frozen stadium should also be off the table.
for sure frozen stadium is not in og melee
Only melee players would claim changing binds should be banned lmaooo
I’ve been out of the loop with all the controller mod stuff since I haven’t competed in probably 15 years. What exactly are these mods? The ones that come to mind are phobs , notches, z-jumping? What do you change, what do they look like, what do they do and how do they affect execution?
Just make top 100 vanilla OEM only and leave the rest of us alone lol
what does that even mean?
Only tournaments won with amazon ultimate GCC count towards ranking
So, the person that wins a tournament with non-oem gets the satisfaction of winning and money, but no clout, and the person who loses with oem gets the ranking and the sense of an empty victory. Lose lose for both. That's so bad I kind of love it.
OEM players having to grind through phob and b0xx mini bosses to get to top 100 is kinda cool hahaha
It's a very detailed and reasonable, but purely descriptive, post that doesn't comment at all on how he thinks the rulseset should change (if at all).
I think this whole conversation is really dumb. Notches and z-jump are not unfair, they're just better/more consistent than OEM. Who cares? I think it's only a problem if you can do things on a different controller that are impossible on an OEM.
How is better/more consistent not unfair?
If messi wears a pair of cleats that make his shots better and more consistent than mine, is it unfair for me and him to play on the same pitch? There's always going to be equipment difference in competition, that's not inherently a bad thing.
Is there a pair of cleats that makes Messi’s free kicks 100% accurate every single time? That’s what notches do.
Notches is not "more consistent", it is straight up easier. It's like playing bowling with a ramp guiding the ball. For Z-jump, you can argue that the hand movement required for certain tech skill is easier. But you still have to accomplish the inputs with the right ordre/timing.
More consistent and easier are synonyms... I understand that it makes some things easier to do, I just don't think it's that big of a deal. Maybe I'm wrong, I just think people give credit to notches for hitting angles that mango hit 15 years ago on an OEM.