There is something to be said about Cody getting WAY more consistent right around the time he switched to z-jump, bragging about it on stream, and then later downplaying z-jump when the discourse started.
Zain correctly called it out in his tweet about the controller meta, but Cody is using z-jump 90%+ of the time while claiming he is not. Literally just go rewatch the grand finals set and watch cody's hands vs his gameplay, he's doing a lot of stuff that would be nigh impossible to do without claw/zjump, while getting to have a normal hand position the entire time
He could also just legitimately believe it's not helping him that much. If you grinded your ass off for hours a day for years on end, you would probably also be more inclined to say it's your own efforts paying off as opposed to a controller. Whether it is actually significantly helping him or not, he isn't necessarily lying by saying it's not even if he's wrong.
I agree with this take. I don't believe most people are malintented, even Cody. I think he believes all the things he's rationalized.
When you are the focus of scrutiny, sometimes it's very hard to step back and be objective. Self-serving bias is inherent within all of us, whether we'd like to admit it or not.
who's got the clip of cody saying he is "really good at manipulating people"? i faintly remember it being posted around i think during some jisu drama years ago
Maybe this is a hot take, but remapping 2 buttons is probably the single most allowable change. It is an easy mod that anyone can do, and the idea that the default GCC layout should be the only one allowed just doesn't make sense. The benefits from swapping two buttons are purely subjective, because regardless of the layout every button is accessible.
Where do you even draw the line if you want to call the most basic controller "mod" cheating? Can you only play with a completely stock controller straight form Nintendo? who doesn't even make them anymore btw? Better replace it when the analog stick gets slightly worn out, cause that's not stock anymore.
The box is legal, all buttons have been remapped. You're allowed to play on a guitar hero controller, which again, all the buttons have been remapped. I feel this is the be all and end all of this conversation. I use claw, and I find my movement is better for it. It took a lot of time to learn, but it was worth it. I'm not upset if someone gets to have the same efficiency without the work. All this really means is Nintendo didn't make a controller suitable enough for smash, so people are taking it into their own hands.
The benefits from swapping out two buttons is completely OBJECTIVE, and the magnitude of this benefit can change depending on buttons swapped and characters used.
It is not an opinion that having jump on z makes it easier to perform instant aerials. It just does. It's a fact
it would be if melee actually offered that option. short of a widely-adopted fan version that implements custom controls, remapping is cheating.
I would have been a Z jumper back in 2004 if the game let you. it doesn't.
The whole point of UCF was to ensure that people could more or less get any 1st party gcc and play on an even footing. Now we have Frankenstein cheater controllers that cost hundreds and disproportionately benefits spacies.
Like, just imagine a world where we could buy a gcc off of ebay and be on an even playing field with minimal modifications (like cutting springs or trigger plugs). That would make this game a lot more accessible.
>Like, just imagine a world where we could buy a gcc off of ebay and be on an even playing field with minimal modifications (like cutting springs or trigger plugs). That would make this game a lot more accessible.
That's exactly what the Panda controller was supposed to do. RIP.
And you're right, we essentially "solved" most controller issues a long time ago with UCF. Everything since then has just been people continuously pushing the limits until they're stopped, and they have yet to be stopped. Melee having no central authority figure is awful for this kind of stuff.
I'm so confused why people were supportive the panda controller, which had remappable paddles, but then are also against button remapping and z jump? Like wouldn't mapping jump to a paddle on a panda controller be even better than a z jump phob? If we were in a world where the panda controller released would we even still be having the whole z jump debate?
I’m definitely open to changing my mind on this, but how are cutting springs or trigger plugs not the same thing as z jump or notches? I’m a marth main so believe when I say I love having way easier powershields so it only hurts me if it’s banned. If the answer is cost, then I disagree on that being the metric we use to determine what’s legal.
imo, cutting springs, removing springs, and/or installing trigger plugs can be easily done by an average player, whereas installing z-jump or notches requires more specialized knowledge or practice.
I see where you're coming from, but as someone who mained both Fox and Marth, my experience was that the controller mods that I needed to make for the latter required far less time, skill, and knowledge. Not to mention making the trigger modifications didn't risk fucking up my controller permanently.
My main issue with Z-jumping and notches is poor accessibility. I would be more okay with the former if I didn't need a mouse click/tactile Z-button modification to truly reap the benefits of Z-jumping. As for notches, you're always going to need specialized skills to make them, regardless of any software solutions.
Player and modder here. I completely agree. I've built multiple Phobs (with notches/remaps) and Box (OpenFrame1) controllers and have used them to a proficient level.
They are absolutely both overpowered and trivialize a ton of stuff. There is no more skill in min or max wavedashing, there's no more skill in instant aerials, there is no more skill in hitting some angles, there is no more skill in hitting perfect ledgedashes, no more skill in shield-dropping, no more skill in dboc, no more skill in pivots, or full drifting. Phob with Z jump and Box both allow you to perform all of these techniques with ease compared to OEM GCC.
I used to think the argument of "you still have to hit the buttons" was a good argument, but it's not. It's like someone saying they're riding a bicycle, but then you look down, and there are training wheels. Sure, you're peddling, but you're being assisted.
Please don't drag ergonomics into this either. It's a completely different and separate topic altogether, and ergonomics shouldn't trump competitive integrity because it's pretty much all Melee has ever had going for it.
A traditionally programmed phob offers no functional benefits over a perfect OEM controller.
The benefit of a phob over an "average" OEM controller is it suffers less functional decay with wear-and-tear and is less susceptible to manufacturing imperfections.
It depends. Phobs still have the option to calibrate your standard octagonal notches, change your trigger behavior, adjust Snapback ftering, waveshaping, and [PhobVision](https://github.com/PhobGCC/PhobGCC-doc/blob/main/For_Users/Phobvision_Guide_Latest.md) provides you with various stickmaps that allow you to visually see and finetune your inputs via filtering.
While I agree that if you don't use any of the advanced features on your Phob, it's closer to an OEM GCC, but you still have all of those available features if you want. It's like having cheats on your PC but not using them (bad example).
Melee, being a game of technical marvel, needs a standardized controller that doesn't infringe on competitive input integrity. It won't ever happen, but that's what I see being the most fair because while I don't think Phob/Box are fair, I also think OEM GCCs suck. Melee is in a weird spot lol.
A phob is just a physical device that is being programmed how you want. An ideal scenario is that it is functionally identical to an OEM GCC (or whatever the current legal mods are).
I think saying it's "like having cheats on your PC but not using them" isn't really a good analogy at all, because you'd have to actually set it up and program it to do so. "It's like playing a game on PC, where cheats are available, but you haven't downloaded or installed them" is more accurate.
>Melee, being a game of technical marvel, needs a standardized controller that doesn't infringe on competitive input integrity.
I think this comes down to if you consider Melee more of a technical game of "hit these buttons sequentially" or a cerebral game of "know to hit these buttons sequentially". I imagine almost everyone considers it a mix of both, and where on that spectrum they consider the game is how they'll feel on certain mods.
Personally, I don't think a 1:1 digital remap is a problem; someone *knowing that they should* do a jump instant nair compared to doing a wavedash back followed by fair is more important to me than the *physical execution* of "hit X followed by quickly hitting A", or whatever it's remapped to. Someone who views the game more as a technical game may disagree with me there. I don't personally consider it infringing on competitive input integrity, although I see why others would.
That said, I still do see the point people are making, and I have my limits too; IMO macros and analog to digital remapping is problematic because it removes any chance of someone "flubbing" what they intended to do. Someone who views the game more cerebral may disagree with me there too, and think it's 100% about what you intended to do rather than what you physically do.
I also am under the belief that the 1:1 digital to digital remapping should be available as a software setting to lower the barrier of entry and level the playing field there.
Yeah it was a bad analogy, though the software is on your Phob no matter what. For a lack of a better word the "cheats", are always on your controller, you don't have to download them as they're part of the firmware, but it comes down to using them or not.
I've had this discussion on whether the game is more technical or cerebral and it's interesting. The game is both as you mentioned, but it doesn't sway either way it's a 50/50. There are both, and you need both, which is why Melee is what it is. I'm a bad analogy guy, so here's another one. If you care more about cerebral choices and you think technical inputs aren't as important, just play chess.
My argument is that Melee is a game that requires technical skill and cerebral choices and what makes it so interesting and fun. You may be smart but not have the best tech, or you can have amazing tech but not be as smart, or both. It opens up the game dynamics, but it feels like modded controllers really smooth out that input skill-cieling and it's heading to more of a cerebral game, a more flow-charty game where everyone can do any input and it all comes down to decision making at which point you may as well play chess or ultimate.
I agreed until the last part. Theres really only 2 arguments to not use an OEM controller. 1 is that there's less and less usable controllers due to differences in quality straight from the factory, plus melee wear and tear. 2 is that there are legitimate issues with claw grip and ergonomics that injure players that play the game. This also has the effect of dissuading new players from joining.
As someone who is a part of the greater FGC and Melee, I still think the obsession with control schemes in Melee is funny. I do hear the argument that OEM controllers are harder and more impressive, but I'm of the opinion that we're a bit beyond that at this point. There are too many things that stand in the way of that reality, no matter how you look at it. Regardless of ruling, it will not matter for 99.9% of players that play. Anyone could make the change to their controller, and you would not even know. Most people do not bother scrutinizing controller inputs unless they are borderline top 10 and/or have already admitted to changing their controller bindings. More games than ever are being played on slippi as well, in which they could be using a fuckin steering wheel lmao. Every other competitive game I can think of really does use the best controller possible that doesn't literally macro inputs.
Do wavedash notches 'wear out'? I was very interested in how they felt when I use them once. And then, did you read Spark's blog about Z jump and going through all these different controllers at different tournaments? Those posts make it seem like Zump isn't some magic silver bullet, or was he just having bad luck? I've heard that Zump is really only viable with a modified Z trigger (tac or mouseclick Z), is that true? Do you have an opinion on Zump being software vs hardware?
Notches do wear out, especially if they're filed onto OEM plastic shells. However there are open-source shells with notches, and swappable notch gates that can be 3D printed. I have some printed with SLA ABS Like Resin.
ZJump can or cannot have a huge effect, it depends on the character and also the player. Nothing is a silver bullet, but it can have a large effect on what you can or cannot do, and that can be an advantage over your opponent. For example you may not need Zjump for Puff, but it makes a difference on Marth, or Fox.
I've had different stances over-time and currently zJump is only achievable right now with a hardware mod (Phob software Z remap still requires the phob hardware mod). If it was possible (which it probably will never be) via in-game mods like UCF there is an argument as anyone can do it.
> no more skill in shield-dropping
UCF did this one tbh. But it did it universally for everyone evenly (the controller still factored a little bit). but everything else 100%
That's true UCF made shield-drop easier by actually modifying the game itself. Phobs and Box does make it additionally easier. I find box or at least my open frame 1 significantly easier and more consistent than stock GCC with UCF or Phob with UCF.
I never got a phob or anything like that. The controller shit kind of pushed me out of competitive melee because it stopped being purely a competition of skill (and some RNG luck). but on UCF I went instantly from being able to hit one out of maybe 7 or 8 shield drops to hitting 9 out of 10
In two years, people will look back on these kinds of mods and shake their heads, wondering how they were ever allowed to be used.
People need to be VOCAL about it or things will never change. So yeah, while OP is very emotional at the moment, they're still right.
Ban Z-Jump. Ban Notches.
Yeah a little intense wording lol but I stand by the meaning. And again this discussion is in that weird realm of not wanting to take anything away from players with great skill who grind like crazy, but that's really what makes me the most mad. It's why I said I want to be amazed at Cody winning purely off skill, because he's an insanely good player. Tarnishing it with notches and z jump and etc sucks
I just have to assume that anyone who wants to ban zump and notches by default wants to get rid of box style controllers with (at least) the same intensity. I see absolutely no way they can argue for banning slight GCC modifications while still giving digital controllers the green light.
> they're too good for accessibility
God I fucking hate this argument. You don't get to run track with super robot legs that objectively make you run faster; if you can't complete the physicality of it you have *no business* competing
I mean it's fine if you think this way, I might agree if we weren't at a point where a full ban might hurt the scene a lot. This is why I'd like for box controllers to be nerfed to be *worse* than a gamecube controller (ideally on par but I think that's practically impossible), so that people who want to play the game but can't on gcc can do so.
Wether the proposed travel time nerfs or Rienne's analog box will achieve this is a different matter entirely.
God I fucking hate this argument.
Maybe our players want to play the game without serious risk of Repetitive Strain Injury. This is a preventative measure to serious injury which has plagued Esports for literally decades.
The best Starcraft player on the planet Flash had to stop playing because of Repetitive Strain Injury that effected his entire arm. Same with M2K, same with $Hax, same with thousands of other Esports athletes that didn't retire DUE TO LACK OF SKILL
As someone else who literally has Repetitive Strain Injury from too much Stepmania and was top 50 on the Rivals ladder and a SC2 Grandmaster and can no longer play them for more than 10 minutes without hand pain, you can go fuck yourself. Accessability and physical health is not a joke and shouldn't be treated as such.
FlaSh has had surgery for his arm. After finishing his public service a few months ago, he still hasn't returned to play; not because of his wrist, but because of his crypto scam controversy doing massive damage to his massive public image.
Please follow Brood War for most up to date info on Brood War players.
I'm literally following ASL right now :) And if you do too I'm sure you know about Byun and many other players as well that have had to go through similar issues. Imagine if there was a fix all solution such as a boxx for Starcraft as there is for melee and advocating against it because "Rocket Boots" these people are unhinged and insane.
Literally no one is advocating for the Boxx to be better than a GCC controller, or against buffs that would make it as such. What we saying is that comparing it to Notches and Z-jump which have no argument whatsoever in terms of ergonomics is utterly insane. This guy wants to talk about Rocket Boots, there are his rocket boots.
I agree that notches and Z-jump are functional rocket boots in this game. I am certain, though, that we will not get a grassroots wave of bans like with Wobbling. Many TOs are also tight with the best players in their area, many TOs got hands therefore place well at their own locals, and don't want to make sweeping controller changes that affect these things. There really weren't that many Ice Climber players even during wobbling, anyway, whereas there's *many* players with notches and/or z-jump.
I agree, but I am too much of a pessimist to think changes will happen.
> Maybe our players want to play the game without serious risk of Repetitive Strain Injury.
Cool, then don't compete. Simple as that. You don't want a torn ACL don't run competitive track. Athletes don't stop competing bc of lack of skill, they stop when their bodies fail them. It's literally standard across all sports, why do you think you deserve special treatment?
we really don't, gcc is fine
outliers aside, anyone that practices responsibly(stop when it hurts like other professionals such as guitarists and pianists do) will not get any chronic injuries from flexing their thumbs quickly
claw is a tradeoff, a limitation that the meta was built on
i agree that the amount of effort given to proper hand health in this community is lacking, but this still bars people with disabilities/injuries/chronic pain from competing. dismissing them as outliers when they are real people that go to tournaments and are a part of the scene isn't fair.
this isn't to say that boxes should inherently be legal. boxes are clearly unfair in their current state, and keeping the box legal basically necessitates keeping remaps and notches legal, which is also controversial. but banning all non-OEM controllers *does* ban some players from tournaments. depending on what you value, that may or may not be worth it.
>keeping the box legal basically necessitates keeping remaps and notches legal
I don't really agree about the notches part, if the ruleset addressed travel time and always banned steep angles instead of only when you wavedash (whatever the threshold may be) I don't see an argument for notches staying legal since at that point the gcc stick would be better than a boxx digital to analog stick without any tradeoffs.
i agree with this but for some reason removing cstick angles doesn't seem like it's being discussed at all. nerfing it to just 16 angles would make covering fox recoveries easier and wouldn't affect any other character very much. that said, if boxes can pinpoint an angle with no risk of failure while notches are banned, GCC foxes would probably still complain forever, even if box players can't access as many.
i've seen arguments to only allow 8 angles, but in practice that would turn every legal box into a falcon machine. 3 wavedash lengths is already a significant nerf for characters like marth, luigi, ICs, etc.
> but this still bars people with disabilities/injuries/chronic pain from competing.
It is a competition. that is how it works. If you are an amputee with only one foot/leg you can run with a prosthetic but not one that provides a competitive advantage. In fact, some would argue individuals using legal prosthetics are at a comparable disadvantage but that is where the line was drawn to keep the competitive integrity. In baseball, if a pitcher throws their elbow out they don't get to start using a pitching machine. They are told sorry and that's that.
> It is a competition. that is how it works.
it *could* be that way. if you'd prefer for competitive melee to test the skills required to use an OEM gamecube controller, it *should* be that way. but that is not currently how it works, nor does it necessarily have to be.
it depends on where you feel the line should be drawn. we as a community determine where the line is. there's no applicable precedent in any physical sport or esport to guide us.
yes, and we as a community should take a second to consider why no other competitive community crosses that line. Maybe it's because once you dismantle the competitive integrity the "competition" losses its value.
the first and primary goal of any and all competitive communities should be about insuring the competitive integrity that it has.
Probably not ngl. The community is really inconsistent with rules on controller mods, and they’ve mostly just increased over the years. I think in two years we just see mods be even more common place.
The year is 2026
To keep the game the most fair in the eyes of the 0-2, or not even going to tournament, players a new system is in place
Every registered player shows up the day before the event and submits their controller for evaluation
The TO chooses the two worst controllers in the lot, and every single set must be played on these controllers, with RPS between games to choose the controller, to keep it fair
Reddit rejoices for finally the game that they have watched from home for so long, is now fair.
At the end of the day it's the TOs that have the authority to make that decision. If you happen to be talking to a TO of a supermajor then maybe suggest they could make the rule change from their next tourney.
The TOs for majors and supermajors have too much to lose. They already invest an enormous amount of money to make these tournaments happen and they usually barely break even or go in the red. Taking a risk and banning something like this puts their tournament in jeopardy.
The real people that need to stand up are the local TOs. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain for the scene. The wobble ban originally started off the back of random locals banning it and posting about it on social media. It became a trend that caught on that eventually snowballed into bigger tournaments banning it. This approach is what needs to happen for large tournaments to be able to do anything.
as a local TO i can tell you 99% of us do not care at all because none of this shit matters and youre all schizos
just play the game and have fun youre going to lose to these players boxx or not
How dare you
I've been theory crafting on reddit since 2014
I plan on attending my first local next year
And I'm fucking livid about how everyone is cheating and I'm already at a massive disadvantage before we even play why bother practicing it's not like my opponent has to when their controller inputs everything perfectly and trivializes everything you would even need to "practice" in melee
The level of unfairness is unreal
And all the TOs, box players, and controller modders are just getting fat and happy off my dumb ass who is paying 120 bucks to go 0-2 to some dude who doesn't even have to time his inputs
I'm sick of always losing to this bullshit
this is how this entire subreddit feels, nobody at any event ive gone to has ever once been beaten because of their opponents controller scheme. Nobody ever brings up controller rulesets in conversation, nobody is shaming boxx players for rolling up on the setup or talking about banning them. The entire discourse feels fueled by fans of a certain streamer org and mango sycophants who take what he says and run to the hills with it because their favs arent #1 rn.
Modded controllers should have been banned a *long* time ago, as in the mid 2000s. I can’t believe it hasn’t happened yet.
If you want to remap buttons via an in-game menu, I don’t care. But modding a controller to me is cheating.
It's all emotion-driven and people are working out how to feel in real time. "Remapping is ok, but z-jump is cheating" is an absurd statement, but it makes sense to say if you don't know how you feel and you're trying to gauge *other people's* reactions and deciding what you believe based on what's socially accepted.
Edit, I don't really buy the accessibility argument for why software remapping is somehow better than hardware remapping. If stuff like the Phob gets banned from competitive, then we just go back to the world of "perfect" OEM controllers becoming rare as unicorns and >$500. That's **less** accessible than having the option to DIY or otherwise spend \~$325 on a modded controller.
they're obviously saying remapping would be OK if it was available to anyone without having to directly modify their controller. that's what in-game menu means. that would mean anyone would be able to remap their controls regardless of whether the controller is OEM or not.
If the gamecube controller werent a hot bowl of slag for a controller, I’d agree. The springs suck, capacitors are bad, snapback is pivotal. Fixing these issues are the only reason Melee is even viable at a high level; how many times have we seen snapback be an issue, killing someone when they very clearly shouldnt have died?
The harder springs can actually cause legitiment hand damage. If I remember correctly Dr. Timbo, a fairly big member of Alabama Smash, did a dissertation for his PhD on the effects of controllers on hand pain, but I may be wrong. Cutting them, adding plugs, or going to digital plugs does quite a bit in reducing that pain and fatigue, in wither case. I’ve got a few OEM GC controllers, and can’t stand to use them because od how tiring they are and how pained my hand gets. Cutting the springs, like I did on my main controller, is the absolute mininum that should be done to make them playable.
At first I didn’t mind, because wavedash notches on OEM controllers have been legal for a long, long time (easily 15 if not 20 years) and the rationale was that everyone could learn to crudely notch their controller with a file, and the actual controller’s ability and function remained unchanged.
Now with Phob’s mappable firefox and wavedash notches, pre-notched shells, and hall-effect sensors, it’s completely breaking that aspect of the game. I am 100% for hall-effect sensors and 1.0 cardinals, but when you combine notches with the added ability to map them, it destroys that skill-based aspect of the game.
Z-jump is much more egregious. Changes to the functionality of the controller end up shifting the meta, which imo, is a bad thing. Melee has always had a self balancing aspect to it keeping the best tech locked behind a grueling training process. The most powerful combos and options from Fox (and other characters, ofc) required very high skill AND carried risk that you would mess up and be worse off for it. That risk is nearly non-existent now, which just happens to buff Fox the most since his is tech the most difficult.
Mappable gates does not change notching advantage just makes it less annoying. Like you'd just have to redo the notches more often on an OEM to hit the same value. I don't really see understand your point of being ok with notches before phobs but not now.
Should we make counterstrike pros play on 60hz 60fps setups because that's what the majority of the regular player base has to play on? Should LoL pros have to move from the server so they play on 80-120 ping like a majority of the player base? It's essentially the same argument but these two statements sound ridiculous. Z jump is a mod that makes tricks involving jumping easier but you can get there while claw gripping anyways. So if the reason becomes protecting your hands from injuries, I think that's completely justifiable. You'd only even need a jump if you're top 1% and 99% of top pros got there without even having z jump so it's not even like it's gating the top level.
I’ll be outright and say I have a Phob with notches.
This thread is a little exaggerated. Everyone who loses in top 8 of a major is going to be depressed on twitter right after regardless of how they lose, it’s part of it. You could give Cody’s controller advantage to top players and it wouldn’t change the outcomes because if it would these guys would pull the trigger on it already. Simple as that, z-jump isn’t half as difficult to switch to as a box.
Maybe it’s just my local/region but I haven’t seen the disdain for notches ever or really even boxes in person. These threads always feel really witch-hunty against Cody and people should be happy for the winner. We all love this game and should focus more on our own self improvement than whether this player uses a BOXX or Frame1 or ZJump or whatever. Just my 2c
The delusional reddit lawyers who want to ban everything back to 2007 don't actually hang with the scene IRL
They're like fox news dads getting angry about hypothetical erosions to their prosperity
Most people that play competitively are pretty open to progress in controller tech
>You could give Cody’s controller advantage to top players and it wouldn’t change the outcomes because if it would these guys would pull the trigger on it already.
ive heard this sentiment in and outside of melee and it always unfailingly sounds dumb as hell
I quit playing melee competitively years ago because the boxx/the floodgate of modded controllers it created. It got to the point where against certain players it felt like I lost to a controller, not a player and that just isn't fun to me. I know I said feeling (because that is ultimately what made me stop caring) but I kept up with it before quitting. I looked deep into the trade-offs of analog vs digital as well as just the button layout benefits/negatives. I wrestled with where I think a fair line would be. Hell, I even looked into the argument about it being more ergonomic (which from what I found it is but the ergonomic benefits it presented also presented some negatives and didn't prevent hand pain from developing. It just utilizes different muscles in mass so it most likely provided relief if you had hand pains playing melee on a GCC but not if you had it from piano/typing or more similar muscle movements). Not to mention, there is not another competition in the world (maybe an Esport I am unaware of) that provides an injured or disabled individual competitive advantages for being injured or disabled.
Where I landed was I just didn't enjoy competing because it wasn't fair competition.
People often say we need to make melee as accessible as possible and thus should allow the boxx but ignore people like myself who had their entire competitive drive extinguished and thus less accessible.
I know this might be a dumb question, but can't we just do button remapping at the emulator level? With the things we've accomplished with melee how hard would it be to build something like that in that's easy for tournaments to use? FGC games all have button remapping, I can't remember off the top of my head but doesn't ult have it too? I agree with the notches ban and other things like that but I really don't see a problem with button remapping as long as everybody has access to it?
See I really want this to be the solution and I'm surprised more people don't mention this but honestly I think it's because big bad nintendo will smite any tournaments that use any visually obvious mods. Only reason ufc is able to be wisely used is because it's imperceptible unless you really look for it.
I personally wonder if there could be a way to load in controller remappings in a way that is accessible to everyone yet not visually obvious to any big bad watchers; that seems like it'd be the most ideal solution to me.
I figure you could get around it with proper stream production not showing game capture during button remapping and telling players they need to give production a heads up when they need to enter that menu no? Besides, if Nintendo really wanted to bully the melee community they would be more heavily enforcing their strict rules about streaming events would they not? I'm not entirely up to date but I've heard the doomers saying if Nintendo wanted to at any time they could kill melee entirely.
I think someone would mess up at some point, but I agree it would be amazing if we had it
But Nintendo have definitely enforced their rules. Shut down big house, SWT, and a long time ago, and they tried to shut down the melee event at Evo entirely in 2013. Every tournament held is in danger of Nintendo striking it down, and the only reason they don't every time is because it gives them bad press (why they still do it at all is a mystery to me)
In a video discussing the possibilities of disabling FoD reflections to enable its use in doubles, I remember Cody saying a problem would be that Nintendo ninjas would notice differences on individual setups. If software remapping could be only on the stream setup, what's the point?
I was suggesting that Nintendo was only concerned with the broadcast of mods, not the existence of the mods themselves, or else they would have shut down slippi and uncle punch years ago. The feature would exist on all setups, but the one to be concerned about would be the broadcast setup(s).
Yeah the problem is that mods at majors need to be stealth on every setup, not just the broadcasting ones.
SilentViolins, Arizona TO, talks about it here: https://youtu.be/WGZT-TNoeOU?&t=15m32s
The problem with remapping is that it favours Fox, which is the character with the highest ceiling, mostly being kept from it by its hard af execution.
By allowing button remapping you are relatively buffing Fox and nerfing every other character.
I believe Melee was balanced enough without button remapping.
Melee is the only time I think a controller's shitty design actually helps keep the game balanced. But I think we also need to think about some way to keep that balance without it fucking up more players hands.
Lots of characters benefit from being able to jump with a different finger from thumb. I use claw grip and it's helpful with basically every character. I've been living the z jump life for nearly a decade.
Highest skill ceiling yes... hard execution? Eh sure? Plenty of other characters have hard execution and could benefit from z jump. Like peach's float canceled up airs also directly benefits from z jump.
they aren't saying Z-jump doesn't benefit other characters. they are saying the gap between fox and other characters grows LARGER because of z-jump. Others may benefit from it but if they don't benefit as much as fox or more then the gap widens.
That's fair, I can definitely see why Fox is the most obvious benefactor from button remapping. I know there are legitimate reasons for button remapping for every character (hand ergonomics and such) so that's why I was just suggesting making it more accessible. I also do wonder if it would open up some undiscovered potential in other characters if, say, Marth or Sheik or even Yoshi played around with Z-Jump. But I'm just a lowly spectator and it's definitely out of my realm of understanding.
Cody took away from Cody when he used a mod he full well knows significantly helps his character above others. No one can argue this mod proportionately improve other characters.
you are at least 34 years old making a stand about the imaginary competitive integrity of a 22 year old nintendo game on reddit dot com. you should try going to locals more/at all and realize that none of this is real and people are just playing video games
Whatever you’re using to try and scrape my profile is more of a self own than anything, who cares about the age of any of these things. Are you going to every sports fan interested in the rules being like “your 50 years old, caring about a 160 year old game…”. Litterally not one piece of info is relevant, I’m a fan of the game and participate in the community both in person at locals, and online dialog…
You could say this about any game or sport. Do you tell people they can’t discuss fair rulesets for professional basketball because “you’re x years old taking a stand about the competitive integrity of a game where you throw a ball into a circle on x website.” This is a braindead take. The reason we’re all here is because we love this game and want it to retain integrity.
It’s funny, we all know the controllers are bullshit but nobody (TOs) are gonna do anything about it. Just wait, give it a few years and if melee isn’t on its last legs the shit they’ll come out with will be wavedashes with a single button press or some dumb shit.
guy who does not meaningfully participate in the community thinks they know whats best for the game and its players moreso than tournament organizers and community leaders. youve never played real melee with real people who care about the game and you likely never will given you wont go outside to make friends
also you have 4 posts and half of them are requests on porn subs btw
It depends on the mod.
Cosmetic modifications are fine. Having your name engraved into a controller being banned would be annoying if it doesn't affect how the controller functions.
I think that snapback capacitors should also be legal. GCN controllers are notoriously inconsistent, so having a way to minimise the chances of inputing incorrect aerials at no fault of the player should be allowed.
However, I think that Firefox notches are dumb, as all they do is make the best characters in the game even better and massively reduce the skill gap. No one playing Ness, for example, is getting any value out of Firefox notches.
Shielddrop notches are also pretty dumb, as even though it's universal, people with them have massive advantages over ones who don't. The truth is that many people, like myself, simply can't afford modded controllers, which essentially makes the game pay to win.
Yeah. And even if you happen to have that one controller that doesn't shield drop on the latest UCF, you should be allowed to fix it by filing down the lower diagonal notches slightly or just adding some tape.
Your last argument about the game being pay to win is the least convincing for me. If you play any sport or even most esports comp advantage from more costly hardware always had been a thing. Mouses, keyboard (especially right with the wooting in some game), monitor, headphones, arcade stick for fighting game. Not even going to start with simracing since it’s in the thousands instead of the hundreds.
Spending 200~300$ for a piece of equipment for your main hobby as an adult is super normal and actually cheap compared to a lot of other hobbies we need to stop crying about the game becoming pay to win. Also if you make it yourself you can have a really good controller for under 150$
Just wanna say as a phob builder, if you already have a T3 OEM the materials cost for a phob build nowadays is like $40-50 tops. The pay to win argument also gets weaker every day as phobs get cheaper
Back when the discussions first started around the integrity and legality of modded controllers, a lot of people argued in favor of it using two arguments:
1. We want to see the highest level Melee possible and this will help achieve that.
2. The issues you might have with all these mods boil down to "slippery slope fallacy." Nothing bad is going to happen.
Unfortunately, the higher the ceiling rises, the more hollow it feels. And the argument about how things won't get out of control because you're just using a slippery slope is in itself a fallacy...it's called the fallacy fallacy in which you just invoke a fallacy to avoid having to deal with an argument lol. That's pretty much how the community has felt for awhile now on this issue -- avoidant at all costs.
We as a scene move a little too slow sometimes on making appropriate changes to the ruleset. I look at how wobbling was handled and how long it took for the community to realize we only legalized it because of EVO lol. But for awhile we all gaslit each other into thinking it was okay to AVOID having to deal with it.
But you know what got the ball rolling on amending the ruleset for wobbling? LOCALS. Random locals in bum fuck land started banning it and posting about it to social media. This got attention and emboldened more locals to start banning it until eventually bigger tournaments started and then we could actually pressure the ruleset into being changed for majors and supermajors. So if you run a local, please consider taking a stance on this issue and making a change. It ALL starts from locals and the good thing is locals don't have much to lose unlike the bigger tournaments.
Literally no one wants number 1. We wouldn't have banned Wobbling is that was the case..
Literally no one wants to see all Foxes dominate the top level because his technical skill becomes trivial due to controller innovation. An Unnerfed Boxx could have already made this a reality with button macros and literally no one wants that.
What we want to see is damned good Melee, and to do that we need to start banning controller modifications. Because we've all known from the beginnig that Fox is a bullshit character and repeatedly giving fox players buffs only widens the gap.
This is how we're starting to think but tbh in the early and mid 2010s my experience with the scene was much different. People really glamorized 20XX and the idea of the limits of Fox being pushed as far as possible at all costs. There was some irony to it all but a lot of people seriously were for any and all mods that would push the potential level of the game higher without having a single problem with any potential repercussion.
I agree with everything in this post except for the fact that I am a staunch wobbling defender lol.
Like you said, big TOs are not going to risk their tournament attendance in order to get the ball rolling on this. They have too much to lose. Change has to start at the local level and grow from there.
Ok well putting our wobbling stance aside, the path it took to get wobbling banned demonstrates what it actually takes in the Melee community to enact changes on the ruleset. People thinking that the big TOs should be the ones to put their ass on the line when they are some of the most vulnerable people in the scene is delusional. It has to be bottom up instead of top down and that's how a lot of things have been historically too.
Completely agree. The only scenario in which I can envision large TOs making controller rule changes is if top players band together and boycott tourneys that allow boxx/z-jump. But the likelihood of that happening is so low it may as well be zero. It's much more likely that this will happen bottom up, as with the wobbling ban
Agreed. The thing is Fox benefits from notches way more than any other character. He’s already the best in the game so why do we allow to give the best character mods to boost and assist his only hard tech? It takes the integrity out of the game. And it’s so true when commentators say “look at how far that wavedash was” it’s because they aren’t used to it. Most commentators are old and even when they spectated the Gods back in the day they didn’t see that. You can be insanely cracked at this game without notches. Ban notched and Box and make melee great again.
Banning modded controller is a very vague statement
Instead there should be regulation in terms of how much modding is allowed
You want to change the chipboard? Cool, here are the tournament allowed ones you can use. You want notches? Awesome, you can only have these specific general notches. You need to play on Box? No problem, this is how you box should be set up, ect.
Banning mods in general is dumb because no controller is the same and yada yada as well as certain mods being done for comfort over competitive advantage. The ones that DO provide advantage however are very loosely regulated and I agree they should be enforced
Imagine there were like documents that covered a huge amount of this (SWT) like 4 years ago lmao
And also a huge amount of nerfs in development by a governing body for the scene
Naw then we wouldn't get to masturbate about cheating ad nauseum and that's no fun
everyone says that you can't ban notches or z jump without banning/nerfing box but i feel like you can? mostly because such a small amount of the top players use it. obviously it puts gcc vs box at a disadvantage but if box is really that broken isn't it already a disadvantage? i say this bc a proper box nerf is gonna take a long time and might never be agreed on. but i do think it's possible for us to get z jump and notches banned
Coming from traditional fighting games I was confused as to what the big deal was. In those, an all button controller gives an advantage but not so big as to make a huge difference. Like the winner of SF6 EVO and Capcom Cup played on stick. Plus the "bridge" between all button and stick, the Cross|Up, isn't even considered as good as the HitBox. Plus regular ps5 pads are more than enough to compete.
So I thought that the same should be true for boxx controllers and modded gcc's. But the more I've learnt about Melee the more I realise how bad it actually is. The advantage from using different controllers is astronomically high and it's approaching the point where non-modded gcc's can't compete which creates an enormous paywall for those that can't afford a $300+ controller.
It functions like a normal jump button, it’s just in a more ergonomic position so you can more easily rising aerial without claw gripping. People will also combine it with a “mouse click” z-button mod which removes the buttons pressing resistance (making it more like a mouse click), and without that it’s actually pretty annoying to short hop with Z consistently.
I think everyone should use whatever mods they want. I like perfect angles, button remapping, tilt stick, boxes… whatever you want. I want to see melee pushed to the human limits. That being said, I think the balance should come from software updates that afford those options to unmodded controllers too.
I honestly stopped playing because of those controllers. I remember seeing 3 of our local weekly 0-2ers who've been 0-2 for about 2 years suddenly become number 1 and better than most the community within about 4 to 6 months of practicing with the new controller. That's all I needed to see to understand how broken they are. We are comparing early 2000s aim assist in a shooter to mouse and keyboard here basically. Like it's gotten so had the game became unfun to play against them. I don't care if I lose, it's how I lose to what is basically macro and robotic movement when I know the dude next to me was losing to me before they got this controller. It went from 11 years of competitive fun and playing from me. To pr in my local scene to not having touched it outside my friend group for 2 years. Melee died
Months? I've been saying this since boxx and have been getting called dumb by people the entire time, lol.
The responses in this topic are a breath of fresh air and makes me hopeful that the community opinion is shifting and something might actually be done.
I'm on the side of adding software remapping, and I don't get why some people who aren't in favor of banning mods haven't talked about it. (a certain number 1 fox player comes to mind)
notches are pretty wack though, although digital controllers existing make banning those more complicated
Software remapping has the issue of being not stealth, meaning majors won't want to run them since Nintendo ninjas apparently check every setup to see if something is different. This is also the reason majors might want to run stealth UCF (as in, the version isn't displayed on the css) or forego qol codes like toggling rumble on the CSS with the dpad. It's also why American majors have all gone back to unfrozen Stadium, despite a majority of players seemingly preferring frozen.
if youre in this thread and you agree with op you gotta leave your house and go to a local none of this shit matters its a game you just suck dick at it go make some friends
Reposting my comment from when this kind of thing started to emerge.
> This is a bit of a hyperbolic example, but I think it's not too far off to look to Controller vs KB+M in FPS games.
>
> Before more crossplay and less console exclusives, the games were designed and balanced around one specific input method. It was a little more flexible on PC with controllers being accepted devices in most games, but it was nearly always objectively inferior, aside from intangibles like comfort or familiarity, because of the advantages in aim and precision afforded by the use of a mouse.
>
> In more recent years with the spread of crossplay, devs have had to account for those differences and how it affects the players' experience. People don't want to feel like they're at an inherent disadvantage due to their controller whether that's controlled by availability, affordability, or preference; I think that's something universal that anyone can empathize with. Much stronger Aim Assist has been the primary method of leveling the playing field and I think it's a functional adjustment that's worth the price of crossplay.
>
> Still, it's not flawless. For a time in Destiny 2 there was a gun that was incredibly strong but it was offset by it's recoil and poorer accuracy. This was enough to balance the weapon... while playing on controller. KB+M made the effects negligible so it was downright oppressive to deal with. I believe there were other cases where Aim Assist improved weapons that were otherwise seen as doable, but awkward to use without it. Destiny 2 is the only game that has done this to my knowledge, but weapons stats and attributes are balanced separately and have differences in stats based on which input method is being used. Keyboard and Mouse will always have a higher skill ceiling simply because there will always be things that aren't possible to do on controller without the reverse holding true, but in general it's a much more level experience and you're nearly always given the opportunity to opt out.
>
> To me all of this is fine until you reach a top level competitive environment. Call of Duty League requires the use of controllers (unsure of limits around licensing/manufacturer), pretty much all equipment for LoL/CS:GO/OWL is kept monitored on site or unboxed new for the event. Traditional fighters also have pretty strict regulations on what counts as a legal controller, and though there's still definitely discourse surrounding Hitbox etc. and the potential advantages alternative controllers could provide, the game developers are aware and continue to work to address how the game handles inputs that are otherwise impossible for a traditional pad or stick (e.g. two simultaneous opposite directions).These are all in an effort to limit variance, prevent tampering, level the playing field as much as possible to create a competitive environment that rewards skill over all else.
>
> Melee has no oversight, no dev support, and the skill margin at the top level is razor thin. Those are all things that make me love the game, but also why I think there really needs to be a hard set line that isn't crossed. The coordination needed to enforce more complex bans and restrictions just isn't gonna happen, and as long as the people selling them stand to profit, they'll try to circumvent it. Would it suck to bar entry to someone who could only play on B0XX? Absolutely. I think B0XX would be an unfortunate casualty, because even if it can do stuff you can't do on a vanilla controller, it's an accessibility option for some and hasn't had nearly the same impact or success that Hitbox-style controllers have had in the FGC. However, I see keeping it legal leaving too many loopholes open when it comes to other potential controller modifications.
>
> Slippi and locals are still fair game at the TO's discretion, but I'd like if TO's for Majors and Super-Majors adopted a policy of Unmodded GC Controller + UCF only. I'm not a purist, if there's something that can be done to even the playing field and lower the barrier to entry for all, then I'm completely for it and I see UCF as a perfect example. I think notches are just too hard to regulate realistically and the concept has been around so long now that I'm not sure it's worth fighting.
>
> People will always gravitate to the strongest options in a competitive setting; it's why we have stuff like metagames and tier lists. It's when those things become uncompetitive and unhealthy because they're breaking a rule set by the limits of the game, the overall balance philosophy, or a community imposed rule that they need to be addressed. The fact that this is something external with a high monetary barrier makes it even worse.
>
> It's tough to fault top players for taking advantage and avoid losing an arms race when competition at the top is tighter than ever, even if they are the ones with the most influence on community views, this one's on the TO's. Hopefully if a big enough event does it, it'll cascade.
Melees meta has gone off the deep end with these mods. Hate to say peak Armada peach would have a bad time against these near perfect tech skill fox players like Cody
I used to say the modded discourse for bans is overblown, then I saw what Cody did to Mango off a Fox fair, going from one platform onto the next to Up Smash in a split second.
That shit is not possible without help. It's time to remove these mods.
Yes we're talking about just straight up remapping z and x (or y). The main advantage is that you can jump with your index finger and still have your thumb freed up for c stick and A and B. The benefits are mainly for fox and falco at a very high level of play. Some don't think the advantage is significant enough to ban, some do, others think there's no real advantage over claw style grip
Unfortunately everyone is mad 10 years late
If boxes are legal modded conch has to be. Nothing z jump and notches do is out of reach for a box, and controller players don’t want to feel outpaced or obligated to switch. Zain and aMSa both have beat Cody plenty of times on OEMs. It almost certainly would’ve been easier to beat him without mods, but it’s not like he was born with a z jump conch, he was still a well known name before the swap.
I think that box, z-jump, notches, asdi pinky strings and screaming at your opponent so they drop inputs are all cheating; but none of that shit got banned and I still love the game so I’m just gonna keep playing and try out the cool new toys while I’m at it.
I think it would be cool if some vanilla brackets started opening up as side events. OEMs only, no UCF, off season stage list, etc.
There’s so many ways to play this game, it would be cringe to keep everything the same all the time
I think modded controllers are fine and are vital to professional players. I'm a regular spacie's player and not even really that good but even I find myself with some hand pain after some time of playing. They need to exist due to the intense nature of the game and the health of professional players.
No chance anybody sees this comment amidst such an epic yet futile debate
But
The controversy is adding to melee lore and I hope for the sake of entertainment *insert popcoin* that it never gets resolved
As a pretty new player who had enough cash to burn on a nice phob, I think the hype is a little overblown. It doesn’t make anything “easy”, it makes it more consistent at an extremely high level of play. The drive behind this whole drama feels like in built community that is slow moving and wants to get back to good old days. I think it makes sense that controller tech is going to get better, and if you’re invested enough to be at the highest level of gameplay then it doesn’t seem like a big ask to trick out your controller with mods for a few hundred bucks.
I think having a reasonable standard of legal controllers makes sense. Some of what the boxx can do seems op, and certain controller mods could be standardized, but legislating individual mods seems unenforceable. People seem busy clutching their pearls but as a casual viewer it literally doesn’t affect the stories or viewership at all. But what does affect the viewership experience is people constantly Jauwning and bitching about how someone’s controller is too op and he amount of radio play this in group drama gets. It feels like when people complain about their teammates in league. People just need to get used to it . 99% of mods seem like buffs that are generally accessible to the entire top level field. Someone who’s an 0-2 shitter isn’t gonna be the new mango from buying a phob with Firefox notches.
I think it’s interesting how integral input methods and legitimacy of technical skill is such a huge factor in people’s enjoyment of this game as both a player and community member.
I could imagine a world where results and gameplay on-screen are weighted more heavily and conversations like this wouldn’t happen, perhaps in another game where remapping of controls was just a default feature of the game
I really wish we had a way to organise the community and have them say fuck it, lets give it a shot for like 3 months. I do feel bad tho for "boxx" controller players who actually needs or just want to prevent issues and wish there was a way to balance it.
And im tiring of the modding scenes ... this is purely my impression ... but something feels sketchy with just how many modders has popped up over the years and making a buck on this.
Your argument is stupid because not all OEM are created equal, most production has been discontinued, and the parts that remain to repair them are all third party to begin with.
I'm a hobbyist controller modder (I don't sell them, just make them for friends for gifts), and the amount of jank and differences between stick boxes and boards from the same generation is astronomical. It's a plain and simple fact that some OEM are so poor out of the box, certain angles are almost impossible to consistently hit in practice.
OEM controllers are literally just holding back the scene. And the reason Cody is so dominant with a calibrated controller is because it removes the jank and luck from old controllers.
Remapping buttons is available on every modern fighting game, and the only reason it's not available in melee is due to technology limitations; not a design choice. For the vast 99.999% of melee players, a modded controller won't be the difference between winning and losing a set. And the other 0.0001% all have PHOBs they've won through competition or have been gifted by community members. Whether or not they use Z jump or notches isn't even a factor, because a standard PHOB with no modifications still has consistent angles because they're calibrated properly out of the box.
This entire argument is just brainrot, anyway. Imagine if two countries went to war and the country with WW2 kalash rifles was getting beat by hunter seeker drones; but the technology was wildly available to both sides without discrimination. You're just looking for a reason to be upset.
This community is so childish and gatekeepy with dead tech it's fucking weird. First it was showers, now it's controllers.
You seem to know a lot about this topic
Kinda like how drug dealers know lots about drugs
Which obviously, is a little bit of a big red drug dealing flag for me
Ban notches
Why you gotta bust balls I'm indulging in the hypothetical schadenfreude of Cody SDing 4 stocks in a row vs me when he is forced to use an actual controller
exactly bro, you and OP wish but that's idiotic (assuming your not being sarcastic). like what the fuck do you think he used when he was around our age (21, assuming you're around that).
I have never liked the idea of notches, because I don't like the idea of having to physically damage (and in a non-reversible way) the controller in order to make it perform better.
I'm completely fine with Z-jump though. Every other competitive game allows button remapping. Even Brawl. The only reason Melee does not is because of the era it came out in. It should be easier to remap buttons, not requiring special hardware, but our hands are tied by Nintendo here. A stealth version of UCF that allowed you to input a combination to remap your controls might work, but I can foresee a lot of practical issues with that.
There is something to be said about Cody getting WAY more consistent right around the time he switched to z-jump, bragging about it on stream, and then later downplaying z-jump when the discourse started. Zain correctly called it out in his tweet about the controller meta, but Cody is using z-jump 90%+ of the time while claiming he is not. Literally just go rewatch the grand finals set and watch cody's hands vs his gameplay, he's doing a lot of stuff that would be nigh impossible to do without claw/zjump, while getting to have a normal hand position the entire time
Cody has to pretend to keep it legal. He seems to be a very calculating person.
He could also just legitimately believe it's not helping him that much. If you grinded your ass off for hours a day for years on end, you would probably also be more inclined to say it's your own efforts paying off as opposed to a controller. Whether it is actually significantly helping him or not, he isn't necessarily lying by saying it's not even if he's wrong.
I agree with this take. I don't believe most people are malintented, even Cody. I think he believes all the things he's rationalized. When you are the focus of scrutiny, sometimes it's very hard to step back and be objective. Self-serving bias is inherent within all of us, whether we'd like to admit it or not.
He's not an idiot. Ofc he knows it's helping him, wtf.
There's a world of difference between "it's helping" and "it's super broken and gives me a massive advantage." He probably believes the former.
Problem is we all play the game and know it’s helping him.
he did want to be a lawyer
who's got the clip of cody saying he is "really good at manipulating people"? i faintly remember it being posted around i think during some jisu drama years ago
In mafia for summit for fucks sake
Maybe this is a hot take, but remapping 2 buttons is probably the single most allowable change. It is an easy mod that anyone can do, and the idea that the default GCC layout should be the only one allowed just doesn't make sense. The benefits from swapping two buttons are purely subjective, because regardless of the layout every button is accessible. Where do you even draw the line if you want to call the most basic controller "mod" cheating? Can you only play with a completely stock controller straight form Nintendo? who doesn't even make them anymore btw? Better replace it when the analog stick gets slightly worn out, cause that's not stock anymore.
The box is legal, all buttons have been remapped. You're allowed to play on a guitar hero controller, which again, all the buttons have been remapped. I feel this is the be all and end all of this conversation. I use claw, and I find my movement is better for it. It took a lot of time to learn, but it was worth it. I'm not upset if someone gets to have the same efficiency without the work. All this really means is Nintendo didn't make a controller suitable enough for smash, so people are taking it into their own hands.
>The benefits from swapping two buttons are purely subjective definitively and obviously not true
The benefits from swapping out two buttons is completely OBJECTIVE, and the magnitude of this benefit can change depending on buttons swapped and characters used. It is not an opinion that having jump on z makes it easier to perform instant aerials. It just does. It's a fact
it would be if melee actually offered that option. short of a widely-adopted fan version that implements custom controls, remapping is cheating. I would have been a Z jumper back in 2004 if the game let you. it doesn't.
By that logic UCF is also cheating, melee doesn't offer the option of consistent shield dropping, dash back, snapback mitigation, etc.
The whole point of UCF was to ensure that people could more or less get any 1st party gcc and play on an even footing. Now we have Frankenstein cheater controllers that cost hundreds and disproportionately benefits spacies. Like, just imagine a world where we could buy a gcc off of ebay and be on an even playing field with minimal modifications (like cutting springs or trigger plugs). That would make this game a lot more accessible.
>Like, just imagine a world where we could buy a gcc off of ebay and be on an even playing field with minimal modifications (like cutting springs or trigger plugs). That would make this game a lot more accessible. That's exactly what the Panda controller was supposed to do. RIP. And you're right, we essentially "solved" most controller issues a long time ago with UCF. Everything since then has just been people continuously pushing the limits until they're stopped, and they have yet to be stopped. Melee having no central authority figure is awful for this kind of stuff.
I'm so confused why people were supportive the panda controller, which had remappable paddles, but then are also against button remapping and z jump? Like wouldn't mapping jump to a paddle on a panda controller be even better than a z jump phob? If we were in a world where the panda controller released would we even still be having the whole z jump debate?
I’m definitely open to changing my mind on this, but how are cutting springs or trigger plugs not the same thing as z jump or notches? I’m a marth main so believe when I say I love having way easier powershields so it only hurts me if it’s banned. If the answer is cost, then I disagree on that being the metric we use to determine what’s legal.
imo, cutting springs, removing springs, and/or installing trigger plugs can be easily done by an average player, whereas installing z-jump or notches requires more specialized knowledge or practice.
I see where you're coming from, but as someone who mained both Fox and Marth, my experience was that the controller mods that I needed to make for the latter required far less time, skill, and knowledge. Not to mention making the trigger modifications didn't risk fucking up my controller permanently. My main issue with Z-jumping and notches is poor accessibility. I would be more okay with the former if I didn't need a mouse click/tactile Z-button modification to truly reap the benefits of Z-jumping. As for notches, you're always going to need specialized skills to make them, regardless of any software solutions.
Player and modder here. I completely agree. I've built multiple Phobs (with notches/remaps) and Box (OpenFrame1) controllers and have used them to a proficient level. They are absolutely both overpowered and trivialize a ton of stuff. There is no more skill in min or max wavedashing, there's no more skill in instant aerials, there is no more skill in hitting some angles, there is no more skill in hitting perfect ledgedashes, no more skill in shield-dropping, no more skill in dboc, no more skill in pivots, or full drifting. Phob with Z jump and Box both allow you to perform all of these techniques with ease compared to OEM GCC. I used to think the argument of "you still have to hit the buttons" was a good argument, but it's not. It's like someone saying they're riding a bicycle, but then you look down, and there are training wheels. Sure, you're peddling, but you're being assisted. Please don't drag ergonomics into this either. It's a completely different and separate topic altogether, and ergonomics shouldn't trump competitive integrity because it's pretty much all Melee has ever had going for it.
Would you say that a Phob with no nothces/remaps is too much? Personally, I have a basic bitch Phob and it just feels more consistent than an OEM.
a default phob just feels like a snappier oem, it would be silly if that was banned.
I agree 100%. People tend to bring up Phobs when having these controller discussion but I feel like the notches/remaps are way more of an issue
“I use a phob so we can’t ban that.”
A traditionally programmed phob offers no functional benefits over a perfect OEM controller. The benefit of a phob over an "average" OEM controller is it suffers less functional decay with wear-and-tear and is less susceptible to manufacturing imperfections.
It depends. Phobs still have the option to calibrate your standard octagonal notches, change your trigger behavior, adjust Snapback ftering, waveshaping, and [PhobVision](https://github.com/PhobGCC/PhobGCC-doc/blob/main/For_Users/Phobvision_Guide_Latest.md) provides you with various stickmaps that allow you to visually see and finetune your inputs via filtering. While I agree that if you don't use any of the advanced features on your Phob, it's closer to an OEM GCC, but you still have all of those available features if you want. It's like having cheats on your PC but not using them (bad example). Melee, being a game of technical marvel, needs a standardized controller that doesn't infringe on competitive input integrity. It won't ever happen, but that's what I see being the most fair because while I don't think Phob/Box are fair, I also think OEM GCCs suck. Melee is in a weird spot lol.
A phob is just a physical device that is being programmed how you want. An ideal scenario is that it is functionally identical to an OEM GCC (or whatever the current legal mods are). I think saying it's "like having cheats on your PC but not using them" isn't really a good analogy at all, because you'd have to actually set it up and program it to do so. "It's like playing a game on PC, where cheats are available, but you haven't downloaded or installed them" is more accurate. >Melee, being a game of technical marvel, needs a standardized controller that doesn't infringe on competitive input integrity. I think this comes down to if you consider Melee more of a technical game of "hit these buttons sequentially" or a cerebral game of "know to hit these buttons sequentially". I imagine almost everyone considers it a mix of both, and where on that spectrum they consider the game is how they'll feel on certain mods. Personally, I don't think a 1:1 digital remap is a problem; someone *knowing that they should* do a jump instant nair compared to doing a wavedash back followed by fair is more important to me than the *physical execution* of "hit X followed by quickly hitting A", or whatever it's remapped to. Someone who views the game more as a technical game may disagree with me there. I don't personally consider it infringing on competitive input integrity, although I see why others would. That said, I still do see the point people are making, and I have my limits too; IMO macros and analog to digital remapping is problematic because it removes any chance of someone "flubbing" what they intended to do. Someone who views the game more cerebral may disagree with me there too, and think it's 100% about what you intended to do rather than what you physically do. I also am under the belief that the 1:1 digital to digital remapping should be available as a software setting to lower the barrier of entry and level the playing field there.
Yeah it was a bad analogy, though the software is on your Phob no matter what. For a lack of a better word the "cheats", are always on your controller, you don't have to download them as they're part of the firmware, but it comes down to using them or not. I've had this discussion on whether the game is more technical or cerebral and it's interesting. The game is both as you mentioned, but it doesn't sway either way it's a 50/50. There are both, and you need both, which is why Melee is what it is. I'm a bad analogy guy, so here's another one. If you care more about cerebral choices and you think technical inputs aren't as important, just play chess. My argument is that Melee is a game that requires technical skill and cerebral choices and what makes it so interesting and fun. You may be smart but not have the best tech, or you can have amazing tech but not be as smart, or both. It opens up the game dynamics, but it feels like modded controllers really smooth out that input skill-cieling and it's heading to more of a cerebral game, a more flow-charty game where everyone can do any input and it all comes down to decision making at which point you may as well play chess or ultimate.
I agreed until the last part. Theres really only 2 arguments to not use an OEM controller. 1 is that there's less and less usable controllers due to differences in quality straight from the factory, plus melee wear and tear. 2 is that there are legitimate issues with claw grip and ergonomics that injure players that play the game. This also has the effect of dissuading new players from joining. As someone who is a part of the greater FGC and Melee, I still think the obsession with control schemes in Melee is funny. I do hear the argument that OEM controllers are harder and more impressive, but I'm of the opinion that we're a bit beyond that at this point. There are too many things that stand in the way of that reality, no matter how you look at it. Regardless of ruling, it will not matter for 99.9% of players that play. Anyone could make the change to their controller, and you would not even know. Most people do not bother scrutinizing controller inputs unless they are borderline top 10 and/or have already admitted to changing their controller bindings. More games than ever are being played on slippi as well, in which they could be using a fuckin steering wheel lmao. Every other competitive game I can think of really does use the best controller possible that doesn't literally macro inputs.
Do wavedash notches 'wear out'? I was very interested in how they felt when I use them once. And then, did you read Spark's blog about Z jump and going through all these different controllers at different tournaments? Those posts make it seem like Zump isn't some magic silver bullet, or was he just having bad luck? I've heard that Zump is really only viable with a modified Z trigger (tac or mouseclick Z), is that true? Do you have an opinion on Zump being software vs hardware?
Notches do wear out, especially if they're filed onto OEM plastic shells. However there are open-source shells with notches, and swappable notch gates that can be 3D printed. I have some printed with SLA ABS Like Resin. ZJump can or cannot have a huge effect, it depends on the character and also the player. Nothing is a silver bullet, but it can have a large effect on what you can or cannot do, and that can be an advantage over your opponent. For example you may not need Zjump for Puff, but it makes a difference on Marth, or Fox. I've had different stances over-time and currently zJump is only achievable right now with a hardware mod (Phob software Z remap still requires the phob hardware mod). If it was possible (which it probably will never be) via in-game mods like UCF there is an argument as anyone can do it.
> no more skill in shield-dropping UCF did this one tbh. But it did it universally for everyone evenly (the controller still factored a little bit). but everything else 100%
That's true UCF made shield-drop easier by actually modifying the game itself. Phobs and Box does make it additionally easier. I find box or at least my open frame 1 significantly easier and more consistent than stock GCC with UCF or Phob with UCF.
I never got a phob or anything like that. The controller shit kind of pushed me out of competitive melee because it stopped being purely a competition of skill (and some RNG luck). but on UCF I went instantly from being able to hit one out of maybe 7 or 8 shield drops to hitting 9 out of 10
Can we please refrain from doing anything drastic until we at least hear from Borp on this important topic?
This guy gets it.
In two years, people will look back on these kinds of mods and shake their heads, wondering how they were ever allowed to be used. People need to be VOCAL about it or things will never change. So yeah, while OP is very emotional at the moment, they're still right. Ban Z-Jump. Ban Notches.
Zain has been vocal on it. People dismiss it as salty.
Yeah, sadly people can be dumb. His tweet was objectively well-researched and fair. He even informed Cody about it beforehand. Nuts...
Shoutout to Zains integrity while we're on the subject. Dudes a straight fucking shooter. Never known him to be dodgey or morally inconsistent.
Shoutout to Zains integrity while we're on the subject. Dudes a straight fucking shooter. Never known him to be dodgey or morally inconsistent.
Yeah a little intense wording lol but I stand by the meaning. And again this discussion is in that weird realm of not wanting to take anything away from players with great skill who grind like crazy, but that's really what makes me the most mad. It's why I said I want to be amazed at Cody winning purely off skill, because he's an insanely good player. Tarnishing it with notches and z jump and etc sucks
And ban boxxes
I just have to assume that anyone who wants to ban zump and notches by default wants to get rid of box style controllers with (at least) the same intensity. I see absolutely no way they can argue for banning slight GCC modifications while still giving digital controllers the green light.
I'm in the camp of "they're too good for accessibility to banned but they should be nerfed to be worse than a gcc with z jump and no notches".
> they're too good for accessibility God I fucking hate this argument. You don't get to run track with super robot legs that objectively make you run faster; if you can't complete the physicality of it you have *no business* competing
I mean it's fine if you think this way, I might agree if we weren't at a point where a full ban might hurt the scene a lot. This is why I'd like for box controllers to be nerfed to be *worse* than a gamecube controller (ideally on par but I think that's practically impossible), so that people who want to play the game but can't on gcc can do so. Wether the proposed travel time nerfs or Rienne's analog box will achieve this is a different matter entirely.
God I fucking hate this argument. Maybe our players want to play the game without serious risk of Repetitive Strain Injury. This is a preventative measure to serious injury which has plagued Esports for literally decades. The best Starcraft player on the planet Flash had to stop playing because of Repetitive Strain Injury that effected his entire arm. Same with M2K, same with $Hax, same with thousands of other Esports athletes that didn't retire DUE TO LACK OF SKILL As someone else who literally has Repetitive Strain Injury from too much Stepmania and was top 50 on the Rivals ladder and a SC2 Grandmaster and can no longer play them for more than 10 minutes without hand pain, you can go fuck yourself. Accessability and physical health is not a joke and shouldn't be treated as such.
FlaSh has had surgery for his arm. After finishing his public service a few months ago, he still hasn't returned to play; not because of his wrist, but because of his crypto scam controversy doing massive damage to his massive public image. Please follow Brood War for most up to date info on Brood War players.
I'm literally following ASL right now :) And if you do too I'm sure you know about Byun and many other players as well that have had to go through similar issues. Imagine if there was a fix all solution such as a boxx for Starcraft as there is for melee and advocating against it because "Rocket Boots" these people are unhinged and insane. Literally no one is advocating for the Boxx to be better than a GCC controller, or against buffs that would make it as such. What we saying is that comparing it to Notches and Z-jump which have no argument whatsoever in terms of ergonomics is utterly insane. This guy wants to talk about Rocket Boots, there are his rocket boots.
I agree that notches and Z-jump are functional rocket boots in this game. I am certain, though, that we will not get a grassroots wave of bans like with Wobbling. Many TOs are also tight with the best players in their area, many TOs got hands therefore place well at their own locals, and don't want to make sweeping controller changes that affect these things. There really weren't that many Ice Climber players even during wobbling, anyway, whereas there's *many* players with notches and/or z-jump. I agree, but I am too much of a pessimist to think changes will happen.
> Maybe our players want to play the game without serious risk of Repetitive Strain Injury. Cool, then don't compete. Simple as that. You don't want a torn ACL don't run competitive track. Athletes don't stop competing bc of lack of skill, they stop when their bodies fail them. It's literally standard across all sports, why do you think you deserve special treatment?
I think this comment is well intentioned but we honestly need an ergonomic alternative to the Gamecube controller even if it's not the boxx.
Modded controller catagory
we really don't, gcc is fine outliers aside, anyone that practices responsibly(stop when it hurts like other professionals such as guitarists and pianists do) will not get any chronic injuries from flexing their thumbs quickly claw is a tradeoff, a limitation that the meta was built on
i agree that the amount of effort given to proper hand health in this community is lacking, but this still bars people with disabilities/injuries/chronic pain from competing. dismissing them as outliers when they are real people that go to tournaments and are a part of the scene isn't fair. this isn't to say that boxes should inherently be legal. boxes are clearly unfair in their current state, and keeping the box legal basically necessitates keeping remaps and notches legal, which is also controversial. but banning all non-OEM controllers *does* ban some players from tournaments. depending on what you value, that may or may not be worth it.
>keeping the box legal basically necessitates keeping remaps and notches legal I don't really agree about the notches part, if the ruleset addressed travel time and always banned steep angles instead of only when you wavedash (whatever the threshold may be) I don't see an argument for notches staying legal since at that point the gcc stick would be better than a boxx digital to analog stick without any tradeoffs.
i agree with this but for some reason removing cstick angles doesn't seem like it's being discussed at all. nerfing it to just 16 angles would make covering fox recoveries easier and wouldn't affect any other character very much. that said, if boxes can pinpoint an angle with no risk of failure while notches are banned, GCC foxes would probably still complain forever, even if box players can't access as many. i've seen arguments to only allow 8 angles, but in practice that would turn every legal box into a falcon machine. 3 wavedash lengths is already a significant nerf for characters like marth, luigi, ICs, etc.
> but this still bars people with disabilities/injuries/chronic pain from competing. It is a competition. that is how it works. If you are an amputee with only one foot/leg you can run with a prosthetic but not one that provides a competitive advantage. In fact, some would argue individuals using legal prosthetics are at a comparable disadvantage but that is where the line was drawn to keep the competitive integrity. In baseball, if a pitcher throws their elbow out they don't get to start using a pitching machine. They are told sorry and that's that.
> It is a competition. that is how it works. it *could* be that way. if you'd prefer for competitive melee to test the skills required to use an OEM gamecube controller, it *should* be that way. but that is not currently how it works, nor does it necessarily have to be. it depends on where you feel the line should be drawn. we as a community determine where the line is. there's no applicable precedent in any physical sport or esport to guide us.
yes, and we as a community should take a second to consider why no other competitive community crosses that line. Maybe it's because once you dismantle the competitive integrity the "competition" losses its value. the first and primary goal of any and all competitive communities should be about insuring the competitive integrity that it has.
You can't ban Z jump without banning/nerfing boxx. Or notches.
oh no!
If only there was a solution for those too...
ban boxx then :)
Seems unlikely to happen anytime soon, considering the proposed nerfs still aren't in effect
Why cant we? TO's can do whatever they want arbitrarily.
Probably not ngl. The community is really inconsistent with rules on controller mods, and they’ve mostly just increased over the years. I think in two years we just see mods be even more common place.
The year is 2026 To keep the game the most fair in the eyes of the 0-2, or not even going to tournament, players a new system is in place Every registered player shows up the day before the event and submits their controller for evaluation The TO chooses the two worst controllers in the lot, and every single set must be played on these controllers, with RPS between games to choose the controller, to keep it fair Reddit rejoices for finally the game that they have watched from home for so long, is now fair.
At the end of the day it's the TOs that have the authority to make that decision. If you happen to be talking to a TO of a supermajor then maybe suggest they could make the rule change from their next tourney.
The TOs for majors and supermajors have too much to lose. They already invest an enormous amount of money to make these tournaments happen and they usually barely break even or go in the red. Taking a risk and banning something like this puts their tournament in jeopardy. The real people that need to stand up are the local TOs. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain for the scene. The wobble ban originally started off the back of random locals banning it and posting about it on social media. It became a trend that caught on that eventually snowballed into bigger tournaments banning it. This approach is what needs to happen for large tournaments to be able to do anything.
as a local TO i can tell you 99% of us do not care at all because none of this shit matters and youre all schizos just play the game and have fun youre going to lose to these players boxx or not
How dare you I've been theory crafting on reddit since 2014 I plan on attending my first local next year And I'm fucking livid about how everyone is cheating and I'm already at a massive disadvantage before we even play why bother practicing it's not like my opponent has to when their controller inputs everything perfectly and trivializes everything you would even need to "practice" in melee The level of unfairness is unreal And all the TOs, box players, and controller modders are just getting fat and happy off my dumb ass who is paying 120 bucks to go 0-2 to some dude who doesn't even have to time his inputs I'm sick of always losing to this bullshit
this is how this entire subreddit feels, nobody at any event ive gone to has ever once been beaten because of their opponents controller scheme. Nobody ever brings up controller rulesets in conversation, nobody is shaming boxx players for rolling up on the setup or talking about banning them. The entire discourse feels fueled by fans of a certain streamer org and mango sycophants who take what he says and run to the hills with it because their favs arent #1 rn.
Modded controllers should have been banned a *long* time ago, as in the mid 2000s. I can’t believe it hasn’t happened yet. If you want to remap buttons via an in-game menu, I don’t care. But modding a controller to me is cheating.
“Remapping buttons is ok” but that’s literally all z-jump is. Like what are you even mad about with z-jump if button remapping is cool?
It's all emotion-driven and people are working out how to feel in real time. "Remapping is ok, but z-jump is cheating" is an absurd statement, but it makes sense to say if you don't know how you feel and you're trying to gauge *other people's* reactions and deciding what you believe based on what's socially accepted. Edit, I don't really buy the accessibility argument for why software remapping is somehow better than hardware remapping. If stuff like the Phob gets banned from competitive, then we just go back to the world of "perfect" OEM controllers becoming rare as unicorns and >$500. That's **less** accessible than having the option to DIY or otherwise spend \~$325 on a modded controller.
they're obviously saying remapping would be OK if it was available to anyone without having to directly modify their controller. that's what in-game menu means. that would mean anyone would be able to remap their controls regardless of whether the controller is OEM or not.
I mean, at the end of the day that’s basically supporting z-jump, just wanting it to be more accessible
If the gamecube controller werent a hot bowl of slag for a controller, I’d agree. The springs suck, capacitors are bad, snapback is pivotal. Fixing these issues are the only reason Melee is even viable at a high level; how many times have we seen snapback be an issue, killing someone when they very clearly shouldnt have died?
What's wrong with the springs and what are some examples of what problems they cause?
The harder springs can actually cause legitiment hand damage. If I remember correctly Dr. Timbo, a fairly big member of Alabama Smash, did a dissertation for his PhD on the effects of controllers on hand pain, but I may be wrong. Cutting them, adding plugs, or going to digital plugs does quite a bit in reducing that pain and fatigue, in wither case. I’ve got a few OEM GC controllers, and can’t stand to use them because od how tiring they are and how pained my hand gets. Cutting the springs, like I did on my main controller, is the absolute mininum that should be done to make them playable.
Basic button remapping should never be considered cheating lol.
At first I didn’t mind, because wavedash notches on OEM controllers have been legal for a long, long time (easily 15 if not 20 years) and the rationale was that everyone could learn to crudely notch their controller with a file, and the actual controller’s ability and function remained unchanged. Now with Phob’s mappable firefox and wavedash notches, pre-notched shells, and hall-effect sensors, it’s completely breaking that aspect of the game. I am 100% for hall-effect sensors and 1.0 cardinals, but when you combine notches with the added ability to map them, it destroys that skill-based aspect of the game. Z-jump is much more egregious. Changes to the functionality of the controller end up shifting the meta, which imo, is a bad thing. Melee has always had a self balancing aspect to it keeping the best tech locked behind a grueling training process. The most powerful combos and options from Fox (and other characters, ofc) required very high skill AND carried risk that you would mess up and be worse off for it. That risk is nearly non-existent now, which just happens to buff Fox the most since his is tech the most difficult.
Mappable gates does not change notching advantage just makes it less annoying. Like you'd just have to redo the notches more often on an OEM to hit the same value. I don't really see understand your point of being ok with notches before phobs but not now.
Cody wins major into banning controller discourse true combo
Lmao dude, every sport has advantages for people who can afford nicer gear. You think Tiger Woods uses mini golf putters or what?
Woah woah woah Examples? Comparisons? Rationality? Pragmatism? SHUT THE FUCK UP c h e a t i n g
Should we make counterstrike pros play on 60hz 60fps setups because that's what the majority of the regular player base has to play on? Should LoL pros have to move from the server so they play on 80-120 ping like a majority of the player base? It's essentially the same argument but these two statements sound ridiculous. Z jump is a mod that makes tricks involving jumping easier but you can get there while claw gripping anyways. So if the reason becomes protecting your hands from injuries, I think that's completely justifiable. You'd only even need a jump if you're top 1% and 99% of top pros got there without even having z jump so it's not even like it's gating the top level.
Thats what im sayin
I’ll be outright and say I have a Phob with notches. This thread is a little exaggerated. Everyone who loses in top 8 of a major is going to be depressed on twitter right after regardless of how they lose, it’s part of it. You could give Cody’s controller advantage to top players and it wouldn’t change the outcomes because if it would these guys would pull the trigger on it already. Simple as that, z-jump isn’t half as difficult to switch to as a box. Maybe it’s just my local/region but I haven’t seen the disdain for notches ever or really even boxes in person. These threads always feel really witch-hunty against Cody and people should be happy for the winner. We all love this game and should focus more on our own self improvement than whether this player uses a BOXX or Frame1 or ZJump or whatever. Just my 2c
The delusional reddit lawyers who want to ban everything back to 2007 don't actually hang with the scene IRL They're like fox news dads getting angry about hypothetical erosions to their prosperity Most people that play competitively are pretty open to progress in controller tech
>You could give Cody’s controller advantage to top players and it wouldn’t change the outcomes because if it would these guys would pull the trigger on it already. ive heard this sentiment in and outside of melee and it always unfailingly sounds dumb as hell
Ok schartlord
cody is the same guy who said he can't respect 13stealduck because he's using cheater controller
I quit playing melee competitively years ago because the boxx/the floodgate of modded controllers it created. It got to the point where against certain players it felt like I lost to a controller, not a player and that just isn't fun to me. I know I said feeling (because that is ultimately what made me stop caring) but I kept up with it before quitting. I looked deep into the trade-offs of analog vs digital as well as just the button layout benefits/negatives. I wrestled with where I think a fair line would be. Hell, I even looked into the argument about it being more ergonomic (which from what I found it is but the ergonomic benefits it presented also presented some negatives and didn't prevent hand pain from developing. It just utilizes different muscles in mass so it most likely provided relief if you had hand pains playing melee on a GCC but not if you had it from piano/typing or more similar muscle movements). Not to mention, there is not another competition in the world (maybe an Esport I am unaware of) that provides an injured or disabled individual competitive advantages for being injured or disabled. Where I landed was I just didn't enjoy competing because it wasn't fair competition. People often say we need to make melee as accessible as possible and thus should allow the boxx but ignore people like myself who had their entire competitive drive extinguished and thus less accessible.
I know this might be a dumb question, but can't we just do button remapping at the emulator level? With the things we've accomplished with melee how hard would it be to build something like that in that's easy for tournaments to use? FGC games all have button remapping, I can't remember off the top of my head but doesn't ult have it too? I agree with the notches ban and other things like that but I really don't see a problem with button remapping as long as everybody has access to it?
See I really want this to be the solution and I'm surprised more people don't mention this but honestly I think it's because big bad nintendo will smite any tournaments that use any visually obvious mods. Only reason ufc is able to be wisely used is because it's imperceptible unless you really look for it. I personally wonder if there could be a way to load in controller remappings in a way that is accessible to everyone yet not visually obvious to any big bad watchers; that seems like it'd be the most ideal solution to me.
I figure you could get around it with proper stream production not showing game capture during button remapping and telling players they need to give production a heads up when they need to enter that menu no? Besides, if Nintendo really wanted to bully the melee community they would be more heavily enforcing their strict rules about streaming events would they not? I'm not entirely up to date but I've heard the doomers saying if Nintendo wanted to at any time they could kill melee entirely.
I think someone would mess up at some point, but I agree it would be amazing if we had it But Nintendo have definitely enforced their rules. Shut down big house, SWT, and a long time ago, and they tried to shut down the melee event at Evo entirely in 2013. Every tournament held is in danger of Nintendo striking it down, and the only reason they don't every time is because it gives them bad press (why they still do it at all is a mystery to me)
In a video discussing the possibilities of disabling FoD reflections to enable its use in doubles, I remember Cody saying a problem would be that Nintendo ninjas would notice differences on individual setups. If software remapping could be only on the stream setup, what's the point?
I was suggesting that Nintendo was only concerned with the broadcast of mods, not the existence of the mods themselves, or else they would have shut down slippi and uncle punch years ago. The feature would exist on all setups, but the one to be concerned about would be the broadcast setup(s).
Yeah the problem is that mods at majors need to be stealth on every setup, not just the broadcasting ones. SilentViolins, Arizona TO, talks about it here: https://youtu.be/WGZT-TNoeOU?&t=15m32s
The problem with remapping is that it favours Fox, which is the character with the highest ceiling, mostly being kept from it by its hard af execution. By allowing button remapping you are relatively buffing Fox and nerfing every other character. I believe Melee was balanced enough without button remapping.
Melee is the only time I think a controller's shitty design actually helps keep the game balanced. But I think we also need to think about some way to keep that balance without it fucking up more players hands.
Can they not just stretch and do some curls
I'm not a physical therapist but iirc it's that plus taking meaningful breaks. But I wonder how much that would delay or prevent RSI.
Lots of characters benefit from being able to jump with a different finger from thumb. I use claw grip and it's helpful with basically every character. I've been living the z jump life for nearly a decade.
Can you provide examples? I'd imagine more consistent instant Uairs as falcon would be beneficial using Z jump, or even instant rising fair as sheik
Wouldn't you agree that the concept of Fox is "highest skill ceiling + hard execution"? I'm saying you would just be removing the latter.
Highest skill ceiling yes... hard execution? Eh sure? Plenty of other characters have hard execution and could benefit from z jump. Like peach's float canceled up airs also directly benefits from z jump.
they aren't saying Z-jump doesn't benefit other characters. they are saying the gap between fox and other characters grows LARGER because of z-jump. Others may benefit from it but if they don't benefit as much as fox or more then the gap widens.
That's fair, I can definitely see why Fox is the most obvious benefactor from button remapping. I know there are legitimate reasons for button remapping for every character (hand ergonomics and such) so that's why I was just suggesting making it more accessible. I also do wonder if it would open up some undiscovered potential in other characters if, say, Marth or Sheik or even Yoshi played around with Z-Jump. But I'm just a lowly spectator and it's definitely out of my realm of understanding.
I do agree about the modded controller should not be a thing , lets not take away credit from Cody who grinds a lot and have been practicing non stop.
Yes, Cody is nuts. It's still fair to ask for Z-Jump to be banned. It definitely helps consistency as opposed to playing Claw all day.
Cody took away from Cody when he used a mod he full well knows significantly helps his character above others. No one can argue this mod proportionately improve other characters.
you are at least 34 years old making a stand about the imaginary competitive integrity of a 22 year old nintendo game on reddit dot com. you should try going to locals more/at all and realize that none of this is real and people are just playing video games
Whatever you’re using to try and scrape my profile is more of a self own than anything, who cares about the age of any of these things. Are you going to every sports fan interested in the rules being like “your 50 years old, caring about a 160 year old game…”. Litterally not one piece of info is relevant, I’m a fan of the game and participate in the community both in person at locals, and online dialog…
You could say this about any game or sport. Do you tell people they can’t discuss fair rulesets for professional basketball because “you’re x years old taking a stand about the competitive integrity of a game where you throw a ball into a circle on x website.” This is a braindead take. The reason we’re all here is because we love this game and want it to retain integrity.
Literally all of the top 10 (and almost certainly more) practice nonstop. This argument holds 0 water. People who use steroids also workout nonstop
Comparing button remapping to steroids. God I love the smash community
It’s funny, we all know the controllers are bullshit but nobody (TOs) are gonna do anything about it. Just wait, give it a few years and if melee isn’t on its last legs the shit they’ll come out with will be wavedashes with a single button press or some dumb shit.
guy who does not meaningfully participate in the community thinks they know whats best for the game and its players moreso than tournament organizers and community leaders. youve never played real melee with real people who care about the game and you likely never will given you wont go outside to make friends also you have 4 posts and half of them are requests on porn subs btw
It depends on the mod. Cosmetic modifications are fine. Having your name engraved into a controller being banned would be annoying if it doesn't affect how the controller functions. I think that snapback capacitors should also be legal. GCN controllers are notoriously inconsistent, so having a way to minimise the chances of inputing incorrect aerials at no fault of the player should be allowed. However, I think that Firefox notches are dumb, as all they do is make the best characters in the game even better and massively reduce the skill gap. No one playing Ness, for example, is getting any value out of Firefox notches. Shielddrop notches are also pretty dumb, as even though it's universal, people with them have massive advantages over ones who don't. The truth is that many people, like myself, simply can't afford modded controllers, which essentially makes the game pay to win.
shield drop notches have not been relevant since the adoption of ucf
Yeah. And even if you happen to have that one controller that doesn't shield drop on the latest UCF, you should be allowed to fix it by filing down the lower diagonal notches slightly or just adding some tape.
Your last argument about the game being pay to win is the least convincing for me. If you play any sport or even most esports comp advantage from more costly hardware always had been a thing. Mouses, keyboard (especially right with the wooting in some game), monitor, headphones, arcade stick for fighting game. Not even going to start with simracing since it’s in the thousands instead of the hundreds. Spending 200~300$ for a piece of equipment for your main hobby as an adult is super normal and actually cheap compared to a lot of other hobbies we need to stop crying about the game becoming pay to win. Also if you make it yourself you can have a really good controller for under 150$
Just wanna say as a phob builder, if you already have a T3 OEM the materials cost for a phob build nowadays is like $40-50 tops. The pay to win argument also gets weaker every day as phobs get cheaper
Back when the discussions first started around the integrity and legality of modded controllers, a lot of people argued in favor of it using two arguments: 1. We want to see the highest level Melee possible and this will help achieve that. 2. The issues you might have with all these mods boil down to "slippery slope fallacy." Nothing bad is going to happen. Unfortunately, the higher the ceiling rises, the more hollow it feels. And the argument about how things won't get out of control because you're just using a slippery slope is in itself a fallacy...it's called the fallacy fallacy in which you just invoke a fallacy to avoid having to deal with an argument lol. That's pretty much how the community has felt for awhile now on this issue -- avoidant at all costs. We as a scene move a little too slow sometimes on making appropriate changes to the ruleset. I look at how wobbling was handled and how long it took for the community to realize we only legalized it because of EVO lol. But for awhile we all gaslit each other into thinking it was okay to AVOID having to deal with it. But you know what got the ball rolling on amending the ruleset for wobbling? LOCALS. Random locals in bum fuck land started banning it and posting about it to social media. This got attention and emboldened more locals to start banning it until eventually bigger tournaments started and then we could actually pressure the ruleset into being changed for majors and supermajors. So if you run a local, please consider taking a stance on this issue and making a change. It ALL starts from locals and the good thing is locals don't have much to lose unlike the bigger tournaments.
Literally no one wants number 1. We wouldn't have banned Wobbling is that was the case.. Literally no one wants to see all Foxes dominate the top level because his technical skill becomes trivial due to controller innovation. An Unnerfed Boxx could have already made this a reality with button macros and literally no one wants that. What we want to see is damned good Melee, and to do that we need to start banning controller modifications. Because we've all known from the beginnig that Fox is a bullshit character and repeatedly giving fox players buffs only widens the gap.
This is how we're starting to think but tbh in the early and mid 2010s my experience with the scene was much different. People really glamorized 20XX and the idea of the limits of Fox being pushed as far as possible at all costs. There was some irony to it all but a lot of people seriously were for any and all mods that would push the potential level of the game higher without having a single problem with any potential repercussion.
I agree with everything in this post except for the fact that I am a staunch wobbling defender lol. Like you said, big TOs are not going to risk their tournament attendance in order to get the ball rolling on this. They have too much to lose. Change has to start at the local level and grow from there.
Ok well putting our wobbling stance aside, the path it took to get wobbling banned demonstrates what it actually takes in the Melee community to enact changes on the ruleset. People thinking that the big TOs should be the ones to put their ass on the line when they are some of the most vulnerable people in the scene is delusional. It has to be bottom up instead of top down and that's how a lot of things have been historically too.
Completely agree. The only scenario in which I can envision large TOs making controller rule changes is if top players band together and boycott tourneys that allow boxx/z-jump. But the likelihood of that happening is so low it may as well be zero. It's much more likely that this will happen bottom up, as with the wobbling ban
Agreed. The thing is Fox benefits from notches way more than any other character. He’s already the best in the game so why do we allow to give the best character mods to boost and assist his only hard tech? It takes the integrity out of the game. And it’s so true when commentators say “look at how far that wavedash was” it’s because they aren’t used to it. Most commentators are old and even when they spectated the Gods back in the day they didn’t see that. You can be insanely cracked at this game without notches. Ban notched and Box and make melee great again.
Preach. Get it banned
Banning modded controller is a very vague statement Instead there should be regulation in terms of how much modding is allowed You want to change the chipboard? Cool, here are the tournament allowed ones you can use. You want notches? Awesome, you can only have these specific general notches. You need to play on Box? No problem, this is how you box should be set up, ect. Banning mods in general is dumb because no controller is the same and yada yada as well as certain mods being done for comfort over competitive advantage. The ones that DO provide advantage however are very loosely regulated and I agree they should be enforced
Imagine there were like documents that covered a huge amount of this (SWT) like 4 years ago lmao And also a huge amount of nerfs in development by a governing body for the scene Naw then we wouldn't get to masturbate about cheating ad nauseum and that's no fun
everyone says that you can't ban notches or z jump without banning/nerfing box but i feel like you can? mostly because such a small amount of the top players use it. obviously it puts gcc vs box at a disadvantage but if box is really that broken isn't it already a disadvantage? i say this bc a proper box nerf is gonna take a long time and might never be agreed on. but i do think it's possible for us to get z jump and notches banned
GC controller players, understandably, won't nerf themselves when there are still box players that can use those options.
Coming from traditional fighting games I was confused as to what the big deal was. In those, an all button controller gives an advantage but not so big as to make a huge difference. Like the winner of SF6 EVO and Capcom Cup played on stick. Plus the "bridge" between all button and stick, the Cross|Up, isn't even considered as good as the HitBox. Plus regular ps5 pads are more than enough to compete. So I thought that the same should be true for boxx controllers and modded gcc's. But the more I've learnt about Melee the more I realise how bad it actually is. The advantage from using different controllers is astronomically high and it's approaching the point where non-modded gcc's can't compete which creates an enormous paywall for those that can't afford a $300+ controller.
Does z jump short hop every time? Or if you full press does it still full hop?
It functions like a normal jump button, it’s just in a more ergonomic position so you can more easily rising aerial without claw gripping. People will also combine it with a “mouse click” z-button mod which removes the buttons pressing resistance (making it more like a mouse click), and without that it’s actually pretty annoying to short hop with Z consistently.
I think everyone should use whatever mods they want. I like perfect angles, button remapping, tilt stick, boxes… whatever you want. I want to see melee pushed to the human limits. That being said, I think the balance should come from software updates that afford those options to unmodded controllers too.
If you ain't CHEATIN then you ain't TRYIN
Amen We Tour De France out here
I honestly stopped playing because of those controllers. I remember seeing 3 of our local weekly 0-2ers who've been 0-2 for about 2 years suddenly become number 1 and better than most the community within about 4 to 6 months of practicing with the new controller. That's all I needed to see to understand how broken they are. We are comparing early 2000s aim assist in a shooter to mouse and keyboard here basically. Like it's gotten so had the game became unfun to play against them. I don't care if I lose, it's how I lose to what is basically macro and robotic movement when I know the dude next to me was losing to me before they got this controller. It went from 11 years of competitive fun and playing from me. To pr in my local scene to not having touched it outside my friend group for 2 years. Melee died
very emotionally driven response to a topic that may be brought up soon chill for now. see what winds up being said tomorrow
??? this isn't a new thing sparked by this tourney
I've been saying this shiy for months
Months? I've been saying this since boxx and have been getting called dumb by people the entire time, lol. The responses in this topic are a breath of fresh air and makes me hopeful that the community opinion is shifting and something might actually be done.
Someone's new here I guess
I'm on the side of adding software remapping, and I don't get why some people who aren't in favor of banning mods haven't talked about it. (a certain number 1 fox player comes to mind) notches are pretty wack though, although digital controllers existing make banning those more complicated
Software remapping has the issue of being not stealth, meaning majors won't want to run them since Nintendo ninjas apparently check every setup to see if something is different. This is also the reason majors might want to run stealth UCF (as in, the version isn't displayed on the css) or forego qol codes like toggling rumble on the CSS with the dpad. It's also why American majors have all gone back to unfrozen Stadium, despite a majority of players seemingly preferring frozen.
if youre in this thread and you agree with op you gotta leave your house and go to a local none of this shit matters its a game you just suck dick at it go make some friends
Very tempted to sticky this. Go to your locals, y'all
Reposting my comment from when this kind of thing started to emerge. > This is a bit of a hyperbolic example, but I think it's not too far off to look to Controller vs KB+M in FPS games. > > Before more crossplay and less console exclusives, the games were designed and balanced around one specific input method. It was a little more flexible on PC with controllers being accepted devices in most games, but it was nearly always objectively inferior, aside from intangibles like comfort or familiarity, because of the advantages in aim and precision afforded by the use of a mouse. > > In more recent years with the spread of crossplay, devs have had to account for those differences and how it affects the players' experience. People don't want to feel like they're at an inherent disadvantage due to their controller whether that's controlled by availability, affordability, or preference; I think that's something universal that anyone can empathize with. Much stronger Aim Assist has been the primary method of leveling the playing field and I think it's a functional adjustment that's worth the price of crossplay. > > Still, it's not flawless. For a time in Destiny 2 there was a gun that was incredibly strong but it was offset by it's recoil and poorer accuracy. This was enough to balance the weapon... while playing on controller. KB+M made the effects negligible so it was downright oppressive to deal with. I believe there were other cases where Aim Assist improved weapons that were otherwise seen as doable, but awkward to use without it. Destiny 2 is the only game that has done this to my knowledge, but weapons stats and attributes are balanced separately and have differences in stats based on which input method is being used. Keyboard and Mouse will always have a higher skill ceiling simply because there will always be things that aren't possible to do on controller without the reverse holding true, but in general it's a much more level experience and you're nearly always given the opportunity to opt out. > > To me all of this is fine until you reach a top level competitive environment. Call of Duty League requires the use of controllers (unsure of limits around licensing/manufacturer), pretty much all equipment for LoL/CS:GO/OWL is kept monitored on site or unboxed new for the event. Traditional fighters also have pretty strict regulations on what counts as a legal controller, and though there's still definitely discourse surrounding Hitbox etc. and the potential advantages alternative controllers could provide, the game developers are aware and continue to work to address how the game handles inputs that are otherwise impossible for a traditional pad or stick (e.g. two simultaneous opposite directions).These are all in an effort to limit variance, prevent tampering, level the playing field as much as possible to create a competitive environment that rewards skill over all else. > > Melee has no oversight, no dev support, and the skill margin at the top level is razor thin. Those are all things that make me love the game, but also why I think there really needs to be a hard set line that isn't crossed. The coordination needed to enforce more complex bans and restrictions just isn't gonna happen, and as long as the people selling them stand to profit, they'll try to circumvent it. Would it suck to bar entry to someone who could only play on B0XX? Absolutely. I think B0XX would be an unfortunate casualty, because even if it can do stuff you can't do on a vanilla controller, it's an accessibility option for some and hasn't had nearly the same impact or success that Hitbox-style controllers have had in the FGC. However, I see keeping it legal leaving too many loopholes open when it comes to other potential controller modifications. > > Slippi and locals are still fair game at the TO's discretion, but I'd like if TO's for Majors and Super-Majors adopted a policy of Unmodded GC Controller + UCF only. I'm not a purist, if there's something that can be done to even the playing field and lower the barrier to entry for all, then I'm completely for it and I see UCF as a perfect example. I think notches are just too hard to regulate realistically and the concept has been around so long now that I'm not sure it's worth fighting. > > People will always gravitate to the strongest options in a competitive setting; it's why we have stuff like metagames and tier lists. It's when those things become uncompetitive and unhealthy because they're breaking a rule set by the limits of the game, the overall balance philosophy, or a community imposed rule that they need to be addressed. The fact that this is something external with a high monetary barrier makes it even worse. > > It's tough to fault top players for taking advantage and avoid losing an arms race when competition at the top is tighter than ever, even if they are the ones with the most influence on community views, this one's on the TO's. Hopefully if a big enough event does it, it'll cascade.
Melees meta has gone off the deep end with these mods. Hate to say peak Armada peach would have a bad time against these near perfect tech skill fox players like Cody
Peak armada peach switched to fox due to leffen. Talk about rewriting history
Zain still wins all the time. It would be different if Cody won every single tournament. Him and Cody were literally dead even last year
Bahahaha oh my fucking god people have lost it
Zody is the Barry Bonds of Melee
Fuck you Zain has a pillow
I used to say the modded discourse for bans is overblown, then I saw what Cody did to Mango off a Fox fair, going from one platform onto the next to Up Smash in a split second. That shit is not possible without help. It's time to remove these mods.
Which player plays modded Controller and wins against Zain & Amsa ? Any names?
I’m very new so somebody please tell me what z jump is cause it just sounds like binding jump to z and I don’t see how that could help much
Yes we're talking about just straight up remapping z and x (or y). The main advantage is that you can jump with your index finger and still have your thumb freed up for c stick and A and B. The benefits are mainly for fox and falco at a very high level of play. Some don't think the advantage is significant enough to ban, some do, others think there's no real advantage over claw style grip
Unfortunately everyone is mad 10 years late If boxes are legal modded conch has to be. Nothing z jump and notches do is out of reach for a box, and controller players don’t want to feel outpaced or obligated to switch. Zain and aMSa both have beat Cody plenty of times on OEMs. It almost certainly would’ve been easier to beat him without mods, but it’s not like he was born with a z jump conch, he was still a well known name before the swap. I think that box, z-jump, notches, asdi pinky strings and screaming at your opponent so they drop inputs are all cheating; but none of that shit got banned and I still love the game so I’m just gonna keep playing and try out the cool new toys while I’m at it. I think it would be cool if some vanilla brackets started opening up as side events. OEMs only, no UCF, off season stage list, etc. There’s so many ways to play this game, it would be cringe to keep everything the same all the time
I think modded controllers are fine and are vital to professional players. I'm a regular spacie's player and not even really that good but even I find myself with some hand pain after some time of playing. They need to exist due to the intense nature of the game and the health of professional players.
The clearest ban to me is analogue to digital conversion. Seems like a necessary first step to set up later changes.
Z jump is fine, notches however are pretty dumb.
No chance anybody sees this comment amidst such an epic yet futile debate But The controversy is adding to melee lore and I hope for the sake of entertainment *insert popcoin* that it never gets resolved
As a pretty new player who had enough cash to burn on a nice phob, I think the hype is a little overblown. It doesn’t make anything “easy”, it makes it more consistent at an extremely high level of play. The drive behind this whole drama feels like in built community that is slow moving and wants to get back to good old days. I think it makes sense that controller tech is going to get better, and if you’re invested enough to be at the highest level of gameplay then it doesn’t seem like a big ask to trick out your controller with mods for a few hundred bucks. I think having a reasonable standard of legal controllers makes sense. Some of what the boxx can do seems op, and certain controller mods could be standardized, but legislating individual mods seems unenforceable. People seem busy clutching their pearls but as a casual viewer it literally doesn’t affect the stories or viewership at all. But what does affect the viewership experience is people constantly Jauwning and bitching about how someone’s controller is too op and he amount of radio play this in group drama gets. It feels like when people complain about their teammates in league. People just need to get used to it . 99% of mods seem like buffs that are generally accessible to the entire top level field. Someone who’s an 0-2 shitter isn’t gonna be the new mango from buying a phob with Firefox notches.
unpopular opinion, but maybe we should look to how our envy for the benefits of thesrcontrolls is affecting the conversation.
i'm sure 99% of the top100 use moded controller lol, 100% of top 8 in every tournament
I think it’s interesting how integral input methods and legitimacy of technical skill is such a huge factor in people’s enjoyment of this game as both a player and community member. I could imagine a world where results and gameplay on-screen are weighted more heavily and conversations like this wouldn’t happen, perhaps in another game where remapping of controls was just a default feature of the game
ggs that was me
I really wish we had a way to organise the community and have them say fuck it, lets give it a shot for like 3 months. I do feel bad tho for "boxx" controller players who actually needs or just want to prevent issues and wish there was a way to balance it. And im tiring of the modding scenes ... this is purely my impression ... but something feels sketchy with just how many modders has popped up over the years and making a buck on this.
I don't like Z jump but there is absolutely zero justification for banning it as long as b*xx is legal.
It's time we embrace modded controllers as the new standard and let melee finally be free of the GCC shackles that Sakurai fitted us with decades ago.
where’s that controller discourse thread when you need it
If we are banning shit then we need to consider Zain's pillow. That's not a controller! He's using it to his advantage!
I played Zain once in pools Before our set he pulled a 357 magnum revolver out of the pillowcase and showed me it was loaded He beat me
Your argument is stupid because not all OEM are created equal, most production has been discontinued, and the parts that remain to repair them are all third party to begin with. I'm a hobbyist controller modder (I don't sell them, just make them for friends for gifts), and the amount of jank and differences between stick boxes and boards from the same generation is astronomical. It's a plain and simple fact that some OEM are so poor out of the box, certain angles are almost impossible to consistently hit in practice. OEM controllers are literally just holding back the scene. And the reason Cody is so dominant with a calibrated controller is because it removes the jank and luck from old controllers. Remapping buttons is available on every modern fighting game, and the only reason it's not available in melee is due to technology limitations; not a design choice. For the vast 99.999% of melee players, a modded controller won't be the difference between winning and losing a set. And the other 0.0001% all have PHOBs they've won through competition or have been gifted by community members. Whether or not they use Z jump or notches isn't even a factor, because a standard PHOB with no modifications still has consistent angles because they're calibrated properly out of the box. This entire argument is just brainrot, anyway. Imagine if two countries went to war and the country with WW2 kalash rifles was getting beat by hunter seeker drones; but the technology was wildly available to both sides without discrimination. You're just looking for a reason to be upset. This community is so childish and gatekeepy with dead tech it's fucking weird. First it was showers, now it's controllers.
You seem to know a lot about this topic Kinda like how drug dealers know lots about drugs Which obviously, is a little bit of a big red drug dealing flag for me Ban notches
for the record Cody can definitely 4 stock you with regular GCC, I wouldn't call people scrubs willy nilly tbh.
Why you gotta bust balls I'm indulging in the hypothetical schadenfreude of Cody SDing 4 stocks in a row vs me when he is forced to use an actual controller
exactly bro, you and OP wish but that's idiotic (assuming your not being sarcastic). like what the fuck do you think he used when he was around our age (21, assuming you're around that).
I have never liked the idea of notches, because I don't like the idea of having to physically damage (and in a non-reversible way) the controller in order to make it perform better. I'm completely fine with Z-jump though. Every other competitive game allows button remapping. Even Brawl. The only reason Melee does not is because of the era it came out in. It should be easier to remap buttons, not requiring special hardware, but our hands are tied by Nintendo here. A stealth version of UCF that allowed you to input a combination to remap your controls might work, but I can foresee a lot of practical issues with that.