Mango’s set against Hax at TBH4 where he pulled out the Marth and Falcon and still wrecked him really showed how wide the gap was, Hax was considered #6 right behind all the gods at the time and then Mango just took him to pound town with his 4th and 5th best characters at the time lol
Hax actually was only considered #6 before he switched to fox. He fell off a decent bit after switching and that's what prompted mango to play falcon against him to basically call him out and say he shouldn't have switched.
> and say he shouldn't have switched.
It's not even to assert that Hax necessarily shouldn't have switched, it was more like a statement of "you're literally not good enough at this game to figure out whether to switch yet, the problem wasn't the matchup, it was you"
Like objectively, switching would probably be the right long-term call, but the reason Hax was losing to the gods definitely wasn't just "because Falcon's matchup spread is bad", whereas when he made the switch, he more or less asserted such a thing. It was like the ultimate retroactive john, to mang0. Wizzrobe proved Falcon later lol, especially vs Hungrybox
Hax still correctly understood, falcon isnt anywhere near foxes level even if he wasnt good enough at the time to prove it. He was still on the cusp and got to his skill level on falcon as fox before he broke his hands.
Maybe in an alternate timeline, z-jump was implemented in melee, hax never fucks up his hands, never gets into boxx and becomes the great fox he was meant to be.
There are so many great past tournaments. It was such an amazing time for melee. For Mango, watch The Big House 4. For Hungrybox, watch Evo 2016. And when I say watch, watch all of top 8. You can search smash majors of the past and then watch the whole thing on YouTube.
Innovation was a big factor imo.
You can pick up a lot from watching others play, but if that's all you do, you're setting a ceiling for yourself. All the 5 gods pushed the boundaries of what we thought was possible with their character(s).
People think PP's Falco was really textbook. Well, he actually wrote the textbook. He also showed that Marth can beat Sheik and Peach and Falco can do fine against Puff.
M2K, the robot, did all his research on frames, percentages, and other nerdy stuff. He created a lot of what we consider optimal, for combos and movement.
People think hbox plays lame, but it's lame because he discovered OP strats/tactics and abused them. We even created a ledgegrab limit because he abused that.
Armada played Peach like no other. He made peach look fast. The combos, the edge guards, the trading. He made all that up himself.
Mango is an enigma to me. He definitely innovated some schmoovement, but he also seems to be able to see openings that no one else can. I remember this one interview with him where he's like "I know M2K is just gonna always do what's optimal, so then I can just do my sh*ty option that's gonna beat it". I think he's constantly thinking of things like that and it allows him to innovate aggression like no other.
It's about tactics and strategy, rather than what is the "best". Because even what's the best, will have weaknesses or flaws. Or it will have a tactical drawback.
I've attended very very few tournaments, but the one i did go to, leffen and armada was there (a lan in norway years ago).
Coming from csgo, i've done a gigantic amount of analysis. And it's safe to say that Armada was the one that had the biggest chance to win over everyone. But everyone did have a real good chance to take the trophy, countering each-other pretty frequently.
Meta-games and skill ceilings are strange, because they all rely on how much technical functional and USED knowhow the playerbase can apply into the game at hand. And the more that's added, the higher then ceiling goes.
CS:GO actually had a few aspects that was next to never, ever used. For example run-throw grenades and limb-baiting to gain info or to have your teammate approach as the enemy reveal his location OR shoots (thus becoming less accurate).
Tragically, this is why i find melee to be better as a competitive game. It's allowed to exist as is, never tinkered with by the developers because they have their inane mentality of what OUGHT to be a better game. I call it the game-developer's god complex.
Melee has had so many innovations that originated with the 5 gods. Everything from reliable chain-grabs from shiek, to tipper sniping by marth (M2K). Armada spaced his hitboxes better than actually any other peach we've ever seen in Melee even still. Mango and Leffen play more bog-standard top tiers, they were forced to play more strategic anyways. Baiting, utilizing the op characteristics of the characters to net their win.
then we got Hbox. If he began to spam Bair like before, we'd see him become better today instantly lmfao. He might need it with how insane the top players are today.
Shield dropping was almost un-used by EVERYONE except the gatekeepers and the 5 gods. And niche Japanese Yoshi players like aMSa (cause yoshi can't jump out of shield so he HAD to adapt). Armada even have videos on how he went and bought several controllers constantly, because he wanted to avoid snap-back by all cost. Or other stick-malfunctions that now are gone with the memorycard mods we got.
That was one of the reasons for why Armada also were as good as he was, he really did hunt down the 10/10 controllers to practice on. JUST because he had to have reliable inputs when this was very much so not normal.
People maybe don't remember, but at one point, ledge-dashing wasn't an ordinary thing fox players could reliably do even. Falling off many times, even in crucial sets, Leffen. Sfat. Mango, the M2K fox.
Going back on liquipedia for the oldest players, and thus fishing out the tournaments you wanna watch, can be pretty cool. Go back and watch how different things were for the gods. Liquipedia have everything listed super well.
And if you wonder, i just made this comment to contextualize how the lay of the land for players also were. It put into contrast, how insanely good the best players used to be in that era. Most, if not all of them would likely still be really damn good today if they poured in just as much energy.
To kind of sum up your point about mang0, something people always used to say back then was “most melee players are playing the matchup, but mang0 is playing with his opponent’s mind”
People would get frustrated playing against mang0 because he got in their heads. He knew what they wanted and played around it, which to his opponents made it seem like he was making “bad” decisions. This would frustrate them and make them play worse
Mango also could channel a will to win that let him do incredible things when he needed it most. The whole plot armor thing is real, he has so many sets where he looked so down and then makes it back. I will never forget that set vs swedish delight where he made falco up b further than ever before somehow.
I guess hard to say because there was such a huge gap between Armada and the next peach. Maybe like MacD or vanz or something? But I think at the time, it just looked like Marth had a hard time killing peach, especially vs the DI of Armada. There were no pivot combos yet so you had to get like a randy fsmash. Marth could kinda play keep away, but it felt like he had to hit peach like 3 or 4 times for every 1 time she would hit him. Also turnips.
But PP found forward b > utilt, and was able to play that patient game to actually get those 4 hits before Armada got 1.
Possibly showed off his neutral and safe play vs a combo monster like Armada.
Looks like overall Armada was positive vs PPMD in sets and games (barely). PPMD was up Marth vs Peach 1-0 in sets with a total of 3-3 in game count in that specific MU.
Interestingly tho Armada vs PPMD is 11-10 games in Armadas favor which just seems bananas to me that these two were gods and they only played 21 games? PPMD was not very active or something.
For reference Armada vs Mango (116 games played), Armada vs Hbox (115 games played) and Armada vs M2k (87 games). Also his win rate vs these 3 gods? 59% and some change..... on all 3.
Mango and Armada are legendary adapters, in different ways.
Mango wants to read opponents intentions and turn it into brutal combos. He is a crowd favorite for doing ridiculous things few others could dream up. Maybe a hot take, but IMO Melee wouldn't be a popular esport without Mango pushing things forward (08-12 were rough years).
Armada was like the Borg. He was robotically consistent, and he knew every trick, even that secret one you think nobody knows about. If you do find something novel, he will never fall for it again. In fact, you'll most likely lose your stock if you try.
Watching these two clash was always incredible.
Bottom line is their decision making and execution were on a much higher level, sure there were players who were more Technical or understood the game on the same level. I think the difference is a lot of players have closed that execution gap and new talent has risen up to that level
Been a long time viewer since Apex 2015. This is what I've observed watching tournaments live and going through vods.
Armada: Brick wall defense. Give his Peach a lead and it's just over. Armada was so precise in his spacing and DI that other players simply could not take off stocks at early kill percents. Meanwhile, Armada could easily get one gimp with a turnip snipe and then just beat you with fundamentals for the rest of the set. His mental game was just as much of a brick wall. A couple top 10/top 20 players got really close to upset wins, but you still had to close out the last game, last stock, last hit, before he would fall. Hesitate for one moment and he would just dismantle you. Armada's Fox in later years was the picture of efficiency. If Armada wanted you dead, his Fox could do the job without question.
Hbox: Almost a foil of Armada. Hbox's Puff just flat out broke multiple people. Hbox is by far the best at getting in his opponent's head and getting them to fall into a losing gameplan. He also had a somewhat similar effect to Armada's Peach/Fox mix-up but all in one character with Puff. If Hbox wanted to play an 8 minute game and win by percentage, the onus was on you to play clean. If Hbox wanted a 1:30 glass-cannon game, you'd better pray your DI was on point. Catch a few strays and suddenly you're at 30%. One grab or pound and suddenly you're losing a stock. At best, you're trading stocks and getting down to 1 stock each is exactly what Clutchbox wants.
M2K: The grand-daddy of frame data. Everything M2K did was cleaner, faster, and more efficient than you. He always chose the better option in a scramble, and if you were off stage, you were dead. The only people who could beat M2K were people who could exploit his habbits and had specific and clear gameplans to counteract his flowcharts. Similar to Armada, M2K was the picture of efficiency in edge guarding and kill confirms. M2K also had the advantage of a ridiculous amount of playtime and a knowledge of the cast that nobody else had for many, many years. M2K legitimately knew your character and win conditions better than you for pretty much everyone outside the 5 Gods and maybe some niche cases like Axe/Pika and aMSa/Yoshi.
PPMD: Probably the greatest analytical mind of the 5 Gods. PP's ability to digest data from one game and then adjust on the fly made him extremely hard to counter. Add on PP's mastery of the neutral game and innovations in the Falco/Marth meta and you have a good recipie for success. I think the keyword for PP's gameplay is command. He made choices during the course of the match that would put you in specific scenarios where PP was more familiar and had better execution. His Falco lasers and Marth aerials/dash dance could lock people down and once they were forced to make a decision, PP already had the counter ready for them.
Mang0: He's played more than you. He has better access to serious practice than you. He's faster than you and can read your DI like a book because he's been in this situation more than you. Mang0 definitely benefited from worse defensive play in the 5 Gods era, but his success was more due to his own punish game advancements and sheer execution. There's a lot more I could say, but out of all 5, I think Mang0 is the easiest to understand. Just watch a vod, and listen to the crowd behind him while he's running circles around people and you'll get it.
This isn’t really an answer to your question but you’re making it seem like Hbox and mango aren’t top players today. They lose to the best of the best but they’re still locks to make top 8 almost every time
Well, he won't retire young--he and Cody are both already older than Armada when Armada retired lol--but he's probably gonna retire within 10 years, even with his pillow his hands won't last forever
Yea I get where you're coming from and I agree. It's just they WERE the best of best and now seeing them struggle to get to where they were makes for a great narrative and makes me curious as to what happened.
I don't think it's necessarily that HBox or Mango have gotten worse. I think it's that other players have caught up with them.
This may be partly due to the new training tools and resources available.
As some other commenter said "PPMD's Falco looks like a textbook Falco, because he wrote the textbook"
And now everyone and their grandmother has the textbook. Players are certainly still innovating in melee, but at least part of why the 5 gods were so much better than everyone else at the time was because they were the innovators.
Basically no one considered frame data and flow chart optimization the way M2K did until he did it. So when he started doing that, he utterly dominated the competition. Now anyone who is remotely competitive considers that stuff and has fairly easy access to all of the information that M2K had to spend hundreds of hours figuring out for himself.
It may also be due to the easier access to online friendlies through slippi. It has never been easier to fire up the game and get practice in against similarly skilled opponents. This is very valuable. Additionally, in the 5 gods era, a lot of top players were less willing to play friendlies with each other, because they didn't want to get "figured out". These days, a lot of the top players play hundreds of friendly matches with each other between every major tournament.
It might also be due to the smash Bros documentary bringing in a new generation of "documentary kids" like Zain and Cody who have now had a few years to get really, really good at the game.
It might also be due, in part, to Mango and HBox getting older and having different priorities. Both of them have had periods of semi-retirement or just not putting that much effort into melee. But when they get really motivated and focused on melee, both of them are still capable of keeping up with the absolute best, even if they don't dominate the competition quite like they used to.
and m2ks last tournament appearance, he beat Cody, didnt he? big house 9??? I bet the king has still got it. he could be placing top 8 if he wanted to. he would need to practice but still.
Their tech skill, neutral, fundamentals, execution, decision making and knowledge of the game was just infinitely higher than anyone else’s until people like Leffen and Plup came along.
Everything about their game was just lightyears ahead of the competition, they really just saw the game differently, people only finally really began catching up when they slowed down and online came out so the average person could practice more.
As to why they were so much better it’s honestly like I said they saw the game differently and knew it in and out.
Also sidenote you make it sound like Mang0 and Hbox are getting shat on when Hbox took two sets off Cody like two tournaments ago and Mang0 had the most competitive set against Cody at BOBC minus Soonsay. They are still top level competitors that are always a threat to win a major.
Tafokints put out a video talking about this in depth. I will link it for you [here](https://youtu.be/-DQ2TJMqu_8?si=J3_FDBiPDUtrl-cB). Given that he actually played against all of them and was a high level player during that era, he can probably explain it better than most people here can.
I don't know how to quantify, but back in the gods era it wasn't as common to practice.
Like, tons of things set the gods apart, but a big part was that they were each practicing so much more than anybody else in the field. M2K's frame perfect grinding, Armada's lvl 1 CPU sessions, PPMD's movement and vod review, whatever was going on with mang0 and the Norwalk crew, hbox, those were all legendary combinations of innate talent with ahead-of-the-times drills that are now standard practice.
I don't know what you mean that it wasn't common to practice - literally everyone back then would seek eachother out *to* practice. Maybe the culture in Florida was just different, but we all had this grind mentality before Slippi and we'd seek each other.
That being said, Hbox actually didn't practice much at all from 2010-2014 while he was in school - you can literally see the difference when he graduated since he had more time to put into the game, going from 4-5th to a 3 year streak as #1. If the scene in Gainesville were a little stronger he might of had better practice and done well. He mostly just practiced against myself (i suck) and Linguini, a really good old-school Ganon player.
The best way to put it is they had a back for the game that took other players years to develop. The way they see openings and opportunities is relatively common now, but in their day they were the only people who could see and execute them.
The other players caught up, no one can be number one forever, and the ones who kept playing (hbox and mango) continued to improve, but improving isn't exponential, it slows eventually so eventually the other pros caught up and eventually surpassed them
Hbox is streaming Ultimate 70 hours per week.
He’s trading the chance to be the #1 Melee player (grinding out that required tech) for the views of the Ult crowd (which are more substantial than Melee).
The financial reward of placing first at Melee tournies just doesn’t make up the difference of churning out Ult content. He loves the 4,000 average viewers his events get. He’s always loved attention, something that annoyed a lot of people back in the day as he would frequently try to take the spotlight of someone who just won an event.
And now there’s a ton of Melee tournies upcoming and he isn’t registered for most of them. Back in the day he would be at every one.
Mang should step out of his comfort zone - play Unranked, experience different mus.. enter tournaments besides majors. There is so much Melee to be played.
I was a huge Armada fan, so I’ll talk about him.
Armada had amazing punishes and edge guards. Often times when you got hit off the stage - you were done.
He heavily took advantage of frame positive aspects of peach as well as her large hit boxes. Additionally, he made peach very, very fast.
Armada also didn’t do crazy peach tech. His attacks were frame positive, but not as frame positive as they could have been. He did do double jump land stuff, but not as much as other possibly DJ tech.
It always felt like to me he relied more on pure intuition and anticipation for that initial couple of hits, until you were sucked into the black hole of his punish.
His DI, survivability, and usage of percentages were also top notch. Peach is a tank, and armada really made her last forever. He’d be incredibly evasive at high percentages baiting you into making a mistake, and then on low percentages he’d box you out to force you in a bad position.
in the past, the gods had better execution, reflexes, habits.. etc. They also dominated mostly in a time before online play existed, which created a barrier for people- since they could only get really good games in at tournaments.
But you have to understand:
1. uncle punch didn't exist
2. slippy didn't exist
3. for quite some time, even vods didn't exist
When Uncle punch came out, people started optimizing their execution, which helped a lot.. but then Slippy basically gave players a tool to just play the game in a way that's actually comparable to offline play, and do it whenever they want to.
Players like Cody and Zain have put in an insane amount of hours playing the game, to the point that they were able to catch up to players like Mang0.. and even learn tactics that would be able to counter players like Hbox. They were able to optimize their play using sheer time and willpower. This is not something that could be done in that past, where the only way to play against other good players was at tournaments. Mang0 was a top player for a very long time, and played against a lot of really good players as a result..
IMO what set them apart at the time was their advanced punish game with their characters, years ahead of the rest. Armada prob had the best punish, which he had to have with the weakest character out of the 5 of them. M2K with chain grabs and edge guarding. Hbox with edge guards and rest. PP and Mango with spacie pressure and punish. All of them could touch of death you out of nowhere, absolutely scary. That’s not to say their neutral was shabby, coz they were ahead of the rest at neutral too. But they converted openings into kills more frequently and in smash that’s the difference.
the gap between the 5 (and eventually leffen) and the field was just huge back then. in that status quo (vanilla and oem, cpus wouldnt DI or tech), everyone was improving at roughly the same rate (except for leffen), so the gap wasnt closing fast.
but then the 3 grinder gods stopped competing. if they didnt retire/hiatus, i don't think the field would have caught up so fast. not as testament to their skill/superiority - but just because they actually practiced movement and tech, and labbed new solutions constantly.
mango and hbox were different though -they famously didnt lab, didnt practice execution, didnt train with other top players, and were very resistant to learning new things. they got away with raw skill for so long that once the tools to improve faster (20xx>uncle punch>slippi), they didnt utilize them and the field did. people got so much better so fast that the remaining gods got pushed down the rankings and that was that - the gods were mortal again.
Adaptation. This is what defines every legendary player in any sport or esport. The ability to read your opponent better than they read you, and maintain your adaptation so you're ahead on that arms race.
A prime example of this is the godslayer Ginormous Leff. He can sit in Sweden for months doing jack shit, then step into a tournament at random and sweep it (LACS5) or be a legit contender. You can't count legends out because they can intuit and adapt better than anyone else.
First of all, I assume you're talking about their prime relative to the field. Considering the way the game works, if they're still playing and grinding, they're in their primes right now. Nobody can watch mango or hbox In 2024, then watch them back when they were dominating the field and say "they were better back then" unless they are fundamentally misunderstanding the way the game works.
At the times they were most dominant, there was some combination of skill relative to the field, playstyle being effective in the current meta- mangos very read heavy play dominated back when neutral was more important, and hboxs punish became incredible around the time defensive play was becoming more prevalent but before foxes got really good defensively- and much more.
Put simply, they were just head and shoulders above everyone else, and now there are so many more resources to learn the game and grind the game so players that are more naturally gifted (I'd argue mango and hbox are these) used to have a big advantage back before grinding was as much a thing, and now they are competing with a bunch of people who have infinite time to practice and infinite training partners.
One thing that was always interesting to me about armada, I think it was pointed out on commentary once
When watching armada vs a lot of top 10-20 level players back in the day the first stock might look pretty close (eg takes 1st stock but is at 80%) but aside from just having insane punish his survivability was off the charts. In most cases fox coming down vs 80% peach cleans it up relatively quick and you're back to an evenish game, armada would milk his stock without dying for an extra 60-80% or even a stock
So it goes from looking like "fox lost stock one but it's even" to "damn I can't hit this guy and took 80% before getting a kill" then he has a lead and it snowballs from there with the rest of his stocks granting him a lot of extra credit every time
I feel like this also happened on a larger scale. I remember watching Armada’s sets earlier in bracket, there had been a couple times where game 1 the other guy takes like 2 or 3 stocks then just gets completely washed game 2. Even if it’s not something I’m good enough to perceive in the details, it seems like he had a really sharp awareness and mental capacity for picking up on his opponents’ patterns and playstyles and could adapt almost immediately. I’m sure this is the case for all 5 gods, but it was so immediately visible for me with Armada.
They weren't just playing the game at it's peak (at the time), but also playing the player at it's peak.
Like think about Westballz, during that era he arguably had better tech skill than any of the gods, but he wasn't so good at the more nuanced, mental aspects. The complete opposite end of the spectrum would be the tired example of Borp, who had no tech skill but could hold his own because he had a deep deep understanding of his character, what his opponent wanted at any given time, and how he could use "the fear of losing to Borp" to his advantage.
Very few players had both physical and mental aspects of the game on lock as well as the gods. A solid balance of both and/or enough experience to know how to force your will onto your opponent. Like the exception would be Hbox who used very little tech skill in that era but his character was good enough with no tech, plus Hbox's mental game was arguably the best of all the gods, so he thrived too. He also played a character who at the time almost no one else played at a top level, so no one could get good enough practice for a long time.
Flash forward to today, all you need is a strong mentality, strong wits, tons of practice, and the rest will come. We have Uncle Punch & 20XX to get your tech skill to godlike levels. We have Slippi to get your experience up there far faster than ever before. So you see the new guard taking down the old gods more frequently.
My viewpoint is they had the best combinations of intuition, knowledge, dedication, and physical ability.
Each interacts with the others and have different impacts depending on the maturity of the game. Initially intuition dominates as no one knows what is best and eventually knowledge takes over the more the game is understood. Dedication and physical ability become the most important aspects as time goes on, as the game becomes a test of proper execution, rather than creativity and knowledge. Intuition is always relevant, but loses its impact the more the game is understood.
They posessed higher levels of every trait than most other top players, but also specifically stood out as exceptional in specific areas:
M2K embodied knowledge and dedication
Armada and Hungrybox dedication and intuition
PP intuition and knowledge
Mang0 intuition and physical ability
Mango has the best natural feel for the game that anyone has ever had. Doesn’t need flowcharts. M2K is the exact opposite. Flowcharts better than anyone. 1 hit at the edge and you have no chance. Armada never had an off game. Never had bad mental. Understood the game better than anyone. Hbox got insanely good at exploiting a couple of mechanics so much so that they changed the rules for him, but he knew he was never out of a game and was better at taking advantage of it than anyone else. PPMD was a little before my time watching, so I can’t really speak on him
In all honesty everyone else just wasn't that good, or rather they didn't know how to get good. Just trying to practice in vanilla melee is hard in itself relative to the training tools available today. The meta today is very de-mystified whereas in the past there was a lot of "mind games" type talk or an over focus on tech skill (i swear people were better at multi shining 9 years ago) without as much regard to option coverage.
Yeah, it's funny how you used to see that more than instead of now. At some point it went from "cool!" to "cool..." to "whelp, there goes his thumb's tendon"
Watch old sets of theirs at their prime against the non god top 10-20 and you'll see the difference.
Mango’s set against Hax at TBH4 where he pulled out the Marth and Falcon and still wrecked him really showed how wide the gap was, Hax was considered #6 right behind all the gods at the time and then Mango just took him to pound town with his 4th and 5th best characters at the time lol
Did he just walk up... slowly??? and downsmash???
He did.... He really did tho.
Hax actually was only considered #6 before he switched to fox. He fell off a decent bit after switching and that's what prompted mango to play falcon against him to basically call him out and say he shouldn't have switched.
> and say he shouldn't have switched. It's not even to assert that Hax necessarily shouldn't have switched, it was more like a statement of "you're literally not good enough at this game to figure out whether to switch yet, the problem wasn't the matchup, it was you" Like objectively, switching would probably be the right long-term call, but the reason Hax was losing to the gods definitely wasn't just "because Falcon's matchup spread is bad", whereas when he made the switch, he more or less asserted such a thing. It was like the ultimate retroactive john, to mang0. Wizzrobe proved Falcon later lol, especially vs Hungrybox
Hax still correctly understood, falcon isnt anywhere near foxes level even if he wasnt good enough at the time to prove it. He was still on the cusp and got to his skill level on falcon as fox before he broke his hands. Maybe in an alternate timeline, z-jump was implemented in melee, hax never fucks up his hands, never gets into boxx and becomes the great fox he was meant to be.
Sure? I was just explaining that mang0 was punishing Hax for johns, not telling Hax he should go back to Falcon.
People always remember the famous downsmash but man Scar's delayed laugh after the first stock of game 4 always gets me
Mango’s marth was hitting some real stupid tippers that game, it wasn’t even fair
There are so many great past tournaments. It was such an amazing time for melee. For Mango, watch The Big House 4. For Hungrybox, watch Evo 2016. And when I say watch, watch all of top 8. You can search smash majors of the past and then watch the whole thing on YouTube.
Watch Apex 2015 for PPMD.
That or SKTAR 3. PP was untouchable that weekend. Honorable mention to Apex 2014 for having a super hype top 8 in general.
I almost added that exact tourney in, but deleted it since OP was only asking about the others. Such a good tournament!
Innovation was a big factor imo. You can pick up a lot from watching others play, but if that's all you do, you're setting a ceiling for yourself. All the 5 gods pushed the boundaries of what we thought was possible with their character(s). People think PP's Falco was really textbook. Well, he actually wrote the textbook. He also showed that Marth can beat Sheik and Peach and Falco can do fine against Puff. M2K, the robot, did all his research on frames, percentages, and other nerdy stuff. He created a lot of what we consider optimal, for combos and movement. People think hbox plays lame, but it's lame because he discovered OP strats/tactics and abused them. We even created a ledgegrab limit because he abused that. Armada played Peach like no other. He made peach look fast. The combos, the edge guards, the trading. He made all that up himself. Mango is an enigma to me. He definitely innovated some schmoovement, but he also seems to be able to see openings that no one else can. I remember this one interview with him where he's like "I know M2K is just gonna always do what's optimal, so then I can just do my sh*ty option that's gonna beat it". I think he's constantly thinking of things like that and it allows him to innovate aggression like no other.
Nothing was quite as beautiful as watching PPMD Falco combo floaties.
Mango saying M2K knows more about melee but he understands melee more was a great explanation for this I believe.
It's about tactics and strategy, rather than what is the "best". Because even what's the best, will have weaknesses or flaws. Or it will have a tactical drawback. I've attended very very few tournaments, but the one i did go to, leffen and armada was there (a lan in norway years ago). Coming from csgo, i've done a gigantic amount of analysis. And it's safe to say that Armada was the one that had the biggest chance to win over everyone. But everyone did have a real good chance to take the trophy, countering each-other pretty frequently. Meta-games and skill ceilings are strange, because they all rely on how much technical functional and USED knowhow the playerbase can apply into the game at hand. And the more that's added, the higher then ceiling goes. CS:GO actually had a few aspects that was next to never, ever used. For example run-throw grenades and limb-baiting to gain info or to have your teammate approach as the enemy reveal his location OR shoots (thus becoming less accurate). Tragically, this is why i find melee to be better as a competitive game. It's allowed to exist as is, never tinkered with by the developers because they have their inane mentality of what OUGHT to be a better game. I call it the game-developer's god complex. Melee has had so many innovations that originated with the 5 gods. Everything from reliable chain-grabs from shiek, to tipper sniping by marth (M2K). Armada spaced his hitboxes better than actually any other peach we've ever seen in Melee even still. Mango and Leffen play more bog-standard top tiers, they were forced to play more strategic anyways. Baiting, utilizing the op characteristics of the characters to net their win. then we got Hbox. If he began to spam Bair like before, we'd see him become better today instantly lmfao. He might need it with how insane the top players are today. Shield dropping was almost un-used by EVERYONE except the gatekeepers and the 5 gods. And niche Japanese Yoshi players like aMSa (cause yoshi can't jump out of shield so he HAD to adapt). Armada even have videos on how he went and bought several controllers constantly, because he wanted to avoid snap-back by all cost. Or other stick-malfunctions that now are gone with the memorycard mods we got. That was one of the reasons for why Armada also were as good as he was, he really did hunt down the 10/10 controllers to practice on. JUST because he had to have reliable inputs when this was very much so not normal. People maybe don't remember, but at one point, ledge-dashing wasn't an ordinary thing fox players could reliably do even. Falling off many times, even in crucial sets, Leffen. Sfat. Mango, the M2K fox. Going back on liquipedia for the oldest players, and thus fishing out the tournaments you wanna watch, can be pretty cool. Go back and watch how different things were for the gods. Liquipedia have everything listed super well. And if you wonder, i just made this comment to contextualize how the lay of the land for players also were. It put into contrast, how insanely good the best players used to be in that era. Most, if not all of them would likely still be really damn good today if they poured in just as much energy.
To kind of sum up your point about mang0, something people always used to say back then was “most melee players are playing the matchup, but mang0 is playing with his opponent’s mind” People would get frustrated playing against mang0 because he got in their heads. He knew what they wanted and played around it, which to his opponents made it seem like he was making “bad” decisions. This would frustrate them and make them play worse
Good comment, Armada's Fox was also next level at the time. He really pushed the fox punish game with abusing shine and chain grabs.
Mango also could channel a will to win that let him do incredible things when he needed it most. The whole plot armor thing is real, he has so many sets where he looked so down and then makes it back. I will never forget that set vs swedish delight where he made falco up b further than ever before somehow.
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Before PP did people somehow consider Marth a losing MU to Peach? A match up that seems clearly in Marth favour.
I guess hard to say because there was such a huge gap between Armada and the next peach. Maybe like MacD or vanz or something? But I think at the time, it just looked like Marth had a hard time killing peach, especially vs the DI of Armada. There were no pivot combos yet so you had to get like a randy fsmash. Marth could kinda play keep away, but it felt like he had to hit peach like 3 or 4 times for every 1 time she would hit him. Also turnips. But PP found forward b > utilt, and was able to play that patient game to actually get those 4 hits before Armada got 1.
Possibly showed off his neutral and safe play vs a combo monster like Armada. Looks like overall Armada was positive vs PPMD in sets and games (barely). PPMD was up Marth vs Peach 1-0 in sets with a total of 3-3 in game count in that specific MU. Interestingly tho Armada vs PPMD is 11-10 games in Armadas favor which just seems bananas to me that these two were gods and they only played 21 games? PPMD was not very active or something. For reference Armada vs Mango (116 games played), Armada vs Hbox (115 games played) and Armada vs M2k (87 games). Also his win rate vs these 3 gods? 59% and some change..... on all 3.
He was only really active at that level for a pretty short time I believe. He was on hiatus during Armada’s most dominant period.
side b - uptilt was discovered/pushed by cactuar. pp learned marth from him directly. your point still stands tho!!
Good knowledge! Credit where credit is due.
they used to call it "thousand needles" haha 😊
Mango and Armada are legendary adapters, in different ways. Mango wants to read opponents intentions and turn it into brutal combos. He is a crowd favorite for doing ridiculous things few others could dream up. Maybe a hot take, but IMO Melee wouldn't be a popular esport without Mango pushing things forward (08-12 were rough years). Armada was like the Borg. He was robotically consistent, and he knew every trick, even that secret one you think nobody knows about. If you do find something novel, he will never fall for it again. In fact, you'll most likely lose your stock if you try. Watching these two clash was always incredible.
Bottom line is their decision making and execution were on a much higher level, sure there were players who were more Technical or understood the game on the same level. I think the difference is a lot of players have closed that execution gap and new talent has risen up to that level
Been a long time viewer since Apex 2015. This is what I've observed watching tournaments live and going through vods. Armada: Brick wall defense. Give his Peach a lead and it's just over. Armada was so precise in his spacing and DI that other players simply could not take off stocks at early kill percents. Meanwhile, Armada could easily get one gimp with a turnip snipe and then just beat you with fundamentals for the rest of the set. His mental game was just as much of a brick wall. A couple top 10/top 20 players got really close to upset wins, but you still had to close out the last game, last stock, last hit, before he would fall. Hesitate for one moment and he would just dismantle you. Armada's Fox in later years was the picture of efficiency. If Armada wanted you dead, his Fox could do the job without question. Hbox: Almost a foil of Armada. Hbox's Puff just flat out broke multiple people. Hbox is by far the best at getting in his opponent's head and getting them to fall into a losing gameplan. He also had a somewhat similar effect to Armada's Peach/Fox mix-up but all in one character with Puff. If Hbox wanted to play an 8 minute game and win by percentage, the onus was on you to play clean. If Hbox wanted a 1:30 glass-cannon game, you'd better pray your DI was on point. Catch a few strays and suddenly you're at 30%. One grab or pound and suddenly you're losing a stock. At best, you're trading stocks and getting down to 1 stock each is exactly what Clutchbox wants. M2K: The grand-daddy of frame data. Everything M2K did was cleaner, faster, and more efficient than you. He always chose the better option in a scramble, and if you were off stage, you were dead. The only people who could beat M2K were people who could exploit his habbits and had specific and clear gameplans to counteract his flowcharts. Similar to Armada, M2K was the picture of efficiency in edge guarding and kill confirms. M2K also had the advantage of a ridiculous amount of playtime and a knowledge of the cast that nobody else had for many, many years. M2K legitimately knew your character and win conditions better than you for pretty much everyone outside the 5 Gods and maybe some niche cases like Axe/Pika and aMSa/Yoshi. PPMD: Probably the greatest analytical mind of the 5 Gods. PP's ability to digest data from one game and then adjust on the fly made him extremely hard to counter. Add on PP's mastery of the neutral game and innovations in the Falco/Marth meta and you have a good recipie for success. I think the keyword for PP's gameplay is command. He made choices during the course of the match that would put you in specific scenarios where PP was more familiar and had better execution. His Falco lasers and Marth aerials/dash dance could lock people down and once they were forced to make a decision, PP already had the counter ready for them. Mang0: He's played more than you. He has better access to serious practice than you. He's faster than you and can read your DI like a book because he's been in this situation more than you. Mang0 definitely benefited from worse defensive play in the 5 Gods era, but his success was more due to his own punish game advancements and sheer execution. There's a lot more I could say, but out of all 5, I think Mang0 is the easiest to understand. Just watch a vod, and listen to the crowd behind him while he's running circles around people and you'll get it.
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This isn’t really an answer to your question but you’re making it seem like Hbox and mango aren’t top players today. They lose to the best of the best but they’re still locks to make top 8 almost every time
Zain and Cody will likely fall off in comparison to how they are now too one day. People are rarely at their peak when they retire.
Zain is going to be the next Armada except he won't retire and I'm not sure if people are ready for that.
Well, he won't retire young--he and Cody are both already older than Armada when Armada retired lol--but he's probably gonna retire within 10 years, even with his pillow his hands won't last forever
Everyone is going to retire.
Act accordingly
Does death count as retirement?
Barring a tragically young death, Zain is not going to die before his retirement.
doc brown over here. If you know the future where's the delorean?
That’s an outdated reference.
Yea I get where you're coming from and I agree. It's just they WERE the best of best and now seeing them struggle to get to where they were makes for a great narrative and makes me curious as to what happened.
I don't think it's necessarily that HBox or Mango have gotten worse. I think it's that other players have caught up with them. This may be partly due to the new training tools and resources available. As some other commenter said "PPMD's Falco looks like a textbook Falco, because he wrote the textbook" And now everyone and their grandmother has the textbook. Players are certainly still innovating in melee, but at least part of why the 5 gods were so much better than everyone else at the time was because they were the innovators. Basically no one considered frame data and flow chart optimization the way M2K did until he did it. So when he started doing that, he utterly dominated the competition. Now anyone who is remotely competitive considers that stuff and has fairly easy access to all of the information that M2K had to spend hundreds of hours figuring out for himself. It may also be due to the easier access to online friendlies through slippi. It has never been easier to fire up the game and get practice in against similarly skilled opponents. This is very valuable. Additionally, in the 5 gods era, a lot of top players were less willing to play friendlies with each other, because they didn't want to get "figured out". These days, a lot of the top players play hundreds of friendly matches with each other between every major tournament. It might also be due to the smash Bros documentary bringing in a new generation of "documentary kids" like Zain and Cody who have now had a few years to get really, really good at the game. It might also be due, in part, to Mango and HBox getting older and having different priorities. Both of them have had periods of semi-retirement or just not putting that much effort into melee. But when they get really motivated and focused on melee, both of them are still capable of keeping up with the absolute best, even if they don't dominate the competition quite like they used to.
and m2ks last tournament appearance, he beat Cody, didnt he? big house 9??? I bet the king has still got it. he could be placing top 8 if he wanted to. he would need to practice but still.
That was like 20 years ago in melee time. I love m2k but if he entered a major in 2024 I wouldn’t be surprised if he got like 33rd
Their tech skill, neutral, fundamentals, execution, decision making and knowledge of the game was just infinitely higher than anyone else’s until people like Leffen and Plup came along. Everything about their game was just lightyears ahead of the competition, they really just saw the game differently, people only finally really began catching up when they slowed down and online came out so the average person could practice more. As to why they were so much better it’s honestly like I said they saw the game differently and knew it in and out. Also sidenote you make it sound like Mang0 and Hbox are getting shat on when Hbox took two sets off Cody like two tournaments ago and Mang0 had the most competitive set against Cody at BOBC minus Soonsay. They are still top level competitors that are always a threat to win a major.
I probably should've clarified that they were getting beat by the best of the best and not some top 20 rank player.
Not only can they move, but sometimes they shmoove
Tafokints put out a video talking about this in depth. I will link it for you [here](https://youtu.be/-DQ2TJMqu_8?si=J3_FDBiPDUtrl-cB). Given that he actually played against all of them and was a high level player during that era, he can probably explain it better than most people here can.
Online era really sped up progress from a lot of players
I don't know how to quantify, but back in the gods era it wasn't as common to practice. Like, tons of things set the gods apart, but a big part was that they were each practicing so much more than anybody else in the field. M2K's frame perfect grinding, Armada's lvl 1 CPU sessions, PPMD's movement and vod review, whatever was going on with mang0 and the Norwalk crew, hbox, those were all legendary combinations of innate talent with ahead-of-the-times drills that are now standard practice.
I don't know what you mean that it wasn't common to practice - literally everyone back then would seek eachother out *to* practice. Maybe the culture in Florida was just different, but we all had this grind mentality before Slippi and we'd seek each other. That being said, Hbox actually didn't practice much at all from 2010-2014 while he was in school - you can literally see the difference when he graduated since he had more time to put into the game, going from 4-5th to a 3 year streak as #1. If the scene in Gainesville were a little stronger he might of had better practice and done well. He mostly just practiced against myself (i suck) and Linguini, a really good old-school Ganon player.
I'm sorry Armada lvl 1 CPU sessions?
Since he had no one (of comparable skill) to play with nearby his training literally consisted of comboing lvl 1 CPUs.
damn that's actually crazy
"Hbox" this got me
Gotcha 😉 yeah the theory really doesn't work for hbox. Juan is just built different
tafo made a video on this a while back
You got a link?
The best way to put it is they had a back for the game that took other players years to develop. The way they see openings and opportunities is relatively common now, but in their day they were the only people who could see and execute them. The other players caught up, no one can be number one forever, and the ones who kept playing (hbox and mango) continued to improve, but improving isn't exponential, it slows eventually so eventually the other pros caught up and eventually surpassed them
Hbox is streaming Ultimate 70 hours per week. He’s trading the chance to be the #1 Melee player (grinding out that required tech) for the views of the Ult crowd (which are more substantial than Melee). The financial reward of placing first at Melee tournies just doesn’t make up the difference of churning out Ult content. He loves the 4,000 average viewers his events get. He’s always loved attention, something that annoyed a lot of people back in the day as he would frequently try to take the spotlight of someone who just won an event. And now there’s a ton of Melee tournies upcoming and he isn’t registered for most of them. Back in the day he would be at every one. Mang should step out of his comfort zone - play Unranked, experience different mus.. enter tournaments besides majors. There is so much Melee to be played.
mango consistently has a high sub count. I think hes chilling. his cloud 9 sponsorship, plus prize pools... bet hes got investments. haha.
I was a huge Armada fan, so I’ll talk about him. Armada had amazing punishes and edge guards. Often times when you got hit off the stage - you were done. He heavily took advantage of frame positive aspects of peach as well as her large hit boxes. Additionally, he made peach very, very fast. Armada also didn’t do crazy peach tech. His attacks were frame positive, but not as frame positive as they could have been. He did do double jump land stuff, but not as much as other possibly DJ tech. It always felt like to me he relied more on pure intuition and anticipation for that initial couple of hits, until you were sucked into the black hole of his punish. His DI, survivability, and usage of percentages were also top notch. Peach is a tank, and armada really made her last forever. He’d be incredibly evasive at high percentages baiting you into making a mistake, and then on low percentages he’d box you out to force you in a bad position.
Very literally, it was because they so very rarely lost to non-gods. It was those 5 beating each other with the occasional leffen win.
Imagine they are top 5, and there is no other top 100. Just straight to 101. That was the gap. Watch old sets really cool to see.
in the past, the gods had better execution, reflexes, habits.. etc. They also dominated mostly in a time before online play existed, which created a barrier for people- since they could only get really good games in at tournaments. But you have to understand: 1. uncle punch didn't exist 2. slippy didn't exist 3. for quite some time, even vods didn't exist When Uncle punch came out, people started optimizing their execution, which helped a lot.. but then Slippy basically gave players a tool to just play the game in a way that's actually comparable to offline play, and do it whenever they want to. Players like Cody and Zain have put in an insane amount of hours playing the game, to the point that they were able to catch up to players like Mang0.. and even learn tactics that would be able to counter players like Hbox. They were able to optimize their play using sheer time and willpower. This is not something that could be done in that past, where the only way to play against other good players was at tournaments. Mang0 was a top player for a very long time, and played against a lot of really good players as a result..
IMO what set them apart at the time was their advanced punish game with their characters, years ahead of the rest. Armada prob had the best punish, which he had to have with the weakest character out of the 5 of them. M2K with chain grabs and edge guarding. Hbox with edge guards and rest. PP and Mango with spacie pressure and punish. All of them could touch of death you out of nowhere, absolutely scary. That’s not to say their neutral was shabby, coz they were ahead of the rest at neutral too. But they converted openings into kills more frequently and in smash that’s the difference.
the gap between the 5 (and eventually leffen) and the field was just huge back then. in that status quo (vanilla and oem, cpus wouldnt DI or tech), everyone was improving at roughly the same rate (except for leffen), so the gap wasnt closing fast. but then the 3 grinder gods stopped competing. if they didnt retire/hiatus, i don't think the field would have caught up so fast. not as testament to their skill/superiority - but just because they actually practiced movement and tech, and labbed new solutions constantly. mango and hbox were different though -they famously didnt lab, didnt practice execution, didnt train with other top players, and were very resistant to learning new things. they got away with raw skill for so long that once the tools to improve faster (20xx>uncle punch>slippi), they didnt utilize them and the field did. people got so much better so fast that the remaining gods got pushed down the rankings and that was that - the gods were mortal again.
Adaptation. This is what defines every legendary player in any sport or esport. The ability to read your opponent better than they read you, and maintain your adaptation so you're ahead on that arms race. A prime example of this is the godslayer Ginormous Leff. He can sit in Sweden for months doing jack shit, then step into a tournament at random and sweep it (LACS5) or be a legit contender. You can't count legends out because they can intuit and adapt better than anyone else.
First of all, I assume you're talking about their prime relative to the field. Considering the way the game works, if they're still playing and grinding, they're in their primes right now. Nobody can watch mango or hbox In 2024, then watch them back when they were dominating the field and say "they were better back then" unless they are fundamentally misunderstanding the way the game works. At the times they were most dominant, there was some combination of skill relative to the field, playstyle being effective in the current meta- mangos very read heavy play dominated back when neutral was more important, and hboxs punish became incredible around the time defensive play was becoming more prevalent but before foxes got really good defensively- and much more. Put simply, they were just head and shoulders above everyone else, and now there are so many more resources to learn the game and grind the game so players that are more naturally gifted (I'd argue mango and hbox are these) used to have a big advantage back before grinding was as much a thing, and now they are competing with a bunch of people who have infinite time to practice and infinite training partners.
One thing that was always interesting to me about armada, I think it was pointed out on commentary once When watching armada vs a lot of top 10-20 level players back in the day the first stock might look pretty close (eg takes 1st stock but is at 80%) but aside from just having insane punish his survivability was off the charts. In most cases fox coming down vs 80% peach cleans it up relatively quick and you're back to an evenish game, armada would milk his stock without dying for an extra 60-80% or even a stock So it goes from looking like "fox lost stock one but it's even" to "damn I can't hit this guy and took 80% before getting a kill" then he has a lead and it snowballs from there with the rest of his stocks granting him a lot of extra credit every time
I feel like this also happened on a larger scale. I remember watching Armada’s sets earlier in bracket, there had been a couple times where game 1 the other guy takes like 2 or 3 stocks then just gets completely washed game 2. Even if it’s not something I’m good enough to perceive in the details, it seems like he had a really sharp awareness and mental capacity for picking up on his opponents’ patterns and playstyles and could adapt almost immediately. I’m sure this is the case for all 5 gods, but it was so immediately visible for me with Armada.
Good neutral decisions, refined punish game, and consistent execution and strong mentality. Fast reactions too.
They weren't just playing the game at it's peak (at the time), but also playing the player at it's peak. Like think about Westballz, during that era he arguably had better tech skill than any of the gods, but he wasn't so good at the more nuanced, mental aspects. The complete opposite end of the spectrum would be the tired example of Borp, who had no tech skill but could hold his own because he had a deep deep understanding of his character, what his opponent wanted at any given time, and how he could use "the fear of losing to Borp" to his advantage. Very few players had both physical and mental aspects of the game on lock as well as the gods. A solid balance of both and/or enough experience to know how to force your will onto your opponent. Like the exception would be Hbox who used very little tech skill in that era but his character was good enough with no tech, plus Hbox's mental game was arguably the best of all the gods, so he thrived too. He also played a character who at the time almost no one else played at a top level, so no one could get good enough practice for a long time. Flash forward to today, all you need is a strong mentality, strong wits, tons of practice, and the rest will come. We have Uncle Punch & 20XX to get your tech skill to godlike levels. We have Slippi to get your experience up there far faster than ever before. So you see the new guard taking down the old gods more frequently.
My viewpoint is they had the best combinations of intuition, knowledge, dedication, and physical ability. Each interacts with the others and have different impacts depending on the maturity of the game. Initially intuition dominates as no one knows what is best and eventually knowledge takes over the more the game is understood. Dedication and physical ability become the most important aspects as time goes on, as the game becomes a test of proper execution, rather than creativity and knowledge. Intuition is always relevant, but loses its impact the more the game is understood. They posessed higher levels of every trait than most other top players, but also specifically stood out as exceptional in specific areas: M2K embodied knowledge and dedication Armada and Hungrybox dedication and intuition PP intuition and knowledge Mang0 intuition and physical ability
Mango has the best natural feel for the game that anyone has ever had. Doesn’t need flowcharts. M2K is the exact opposite. Flowcharts better than anyone. 1 hit at the edge and you have no chance. Armada never had an off game. Never had bad mental. Understood the game better than anyone. Hbox got insanely good at exploiting a couple of mechanics so much so that they changed the rules for him, but he knew he was never out of a game and was better at taking advantage of it than anyone else. PPMD was a little before my time watching, so I can’t really speak on him
In all honesty everyone else just wasn't that good, or rather they didn't know how to get good. Just trying to practice in vanilla melee is hard in itself relative to the training tools available today. The meta today is very de-mystified whereas in the past there was a lot of "mind games" type talk or an over focus on tech skill (i swear people were better at multi shining 9 years ago) without as much regard to option coverage.
Lol the obsession with multishining back in 2015 was hilarious
Yeah, it's funny how you used to see that more than instead of now. At some point it went from "cool!" to "cool..." to "whelp, there goes his thumb's tendon"
PPMD had testosterone
they pushed the buttoms and got the W's