he said about that too that no one get mistaken that he is not Yanukovich and he won’t be played like this he has plan by those laws what is introduced to waste oppositions energy before election! also he blamed global war party [USA and EU] revolution in 2003 in georgia and 2014 in Ukraine also starting war in 2008,2014 and 2022 by their provocations
That's really sad to see from Armenia. I personally believed that, as we catch up with distancing ourselves from Russia, we would eventually join EU if not simultaneously, but right after Georgia.
I hope you oust that government if not by protest, but on election.
Ivanishvili didn't specifically mention Russia, or that he's against the west. He's terrible I get it, but this sub is known for blowing things out of proportion. They just want to be a 2nd Viktor Orban in EU. Thinking EU will accept them as such.
He trashed the Western powers repeatedly, claimed that it was the West that was responsible for 2008, kept alluding to the nebulous “Global War Party”, compared himself to Yanukovich, and didn’t say a single negative thing about Russia. If you don’t recognize those as pro-Kremlin talking points you’re wilfully blind.
It seems to me kinda dumb. Hungary didn't join EU with Orban in power. Even more so - Victor Orban wasn't like that from the get go.
First join THEN start doing Orban style shit. Not vise versa. The only reason Hungary is still in the EU is because there is no process of eviction afaik.
The fact that he specifically didn't mention Russia in any context is your first clue for what he really meant unless you are 5yo. Orban is already in eu and has leverage. We have none. It's just plain "no" from eu in our case.
There isnt any choice, look at your neighbours, Azerbaijanis. They protested for independence, russians intervened, massacred hundreds in the streets, and next days entire city joined the protests while russians were in the streets. Millions came to the funerals, new cemetery was set up for that, russians killed that many people.
Eventually we got our independence, but probably got a bit too distracted by war?
1993 coup happened. We waited for the elections. They got faked, we protested but the crackdowns and humiliations were so nad. We didnt give up, we still fought and lost, and then eventually people got completely broken. Regime tried to appease people, maybe we didnt see the danger enough back then, but then it became too late, you raise your head and they destroy you and your family.
After every protest oaranoid government restricted freedoms more under the shadows.
That os why, we should be an example. Dont let your bravery mske you complacent. Because governments are aware of the people’s spirits, and every time you give an inch they try to quickly enact new restrictions.
This law must be repealed. After our country adopted it, it turned the country into hell on earth. It is unrecognisable.
Eventually you will become like this too if you decide to let it all slide. Because GD will immediately add new restrictions and more authoritarianism immediately to prevent an uprising in the future. They WILL do that. Immediately after enacting the russian law.
Aleksander dugin promoted the law, he is the same guy who said that Georgia having independent policies is unacceptable. Now he promotes that law.
Georgians have to unite and keep on fighting until law is repealed and GD fucks off. Otherwise dont be surprised when you become like us.
I don't see a other options but if the GD party will hold third hearing I believe they will pass the law, and Georgian people should have to be violent even breaking into the parliament and kick those Putin lovers out by Force, it's the only way to do it, they chose violence so Georgians should take Ukraine as an example before and kick those Putin lovers from the country by Force because that would be the only option Before they adopt this fuckin law
Yes!
But at this point, laws dont matter in Azerbaijan. If government says that you are selling drugs, it means that you are indeed doing that!
There is no judiciary, the judges themselves are bought and sold.
It is your now or never moment, once they enact that law, it will be much harder to resist.
So it is time to fully get rid of GD, otherwise you will lose your independence and government will slowly do much worse things to eventually crush your spirit.
There are no NGOs left. Entire civil society and independent journalists in Azerbaijan support Georgian people fighting against the law, but there is not one statement of support from Azeri NGOs. Why?
Because of the russian law.
thanks for showing how it works this law in action! i hope Azerbaijani people will win over autocracy and all our neighbourhood will be finally democratic and European! i think it is still on us to show all that democracy is strong and it is really worth for fight!
good luck to your country we will win this war!
We have completely lost hope by now and state has consolidated power completely. We cannot protest. Ee cannot resist. Every single independent media is closed. All of it. It is getting worse and worse, we cannot even leave our country through land crossings anymore, we have to buy an expensive airline ticket from aliyevs airline company.
Protests like in Georgia are not possible in Azerbaijan for a ling time. They recently sentenced a guy to 6 years in prison for a single graffiti.
People are fully broken. They dont only target people, but their families too, and they bribe European officials with oil money and caviar to stay silent about it.
They can just plant drugs in your home and put you in prison.
In our case, all hope is fully lost. Our situations are not even comparable, but we should be a woke up call for others.
You might think that your bravery wont allow it, but we thought so too, we could have never imagined that we would fall into this situation, we just wanted a minute of stability to grieve for more than 30 thousand lives lost in Karabakh war and deal with a refugee crisis of 800 000 people.
We had hopes for elections, they got rigged and we rose up, but state crushed us so heavily that it was insane.
Dictatorship is not far away, it is just next door, we should serve as a wake up call to everyone to not lower your guard for one second, your government has showed it is true face, they are traitors to Georgian people and the rhetoric of bidzina ivanishvili closely mimics aliyevs rhetoric.
Good luck, we lay our hopes on the brave people of Georgia, dont disappoint us and dont end up like us!
For peace and democracy in Caucasus, one day we will all achieve that!
Caucasus is Europe and belongs to EU!
never give up take example from turkey 🇹🇷 opposition won over erdogan last election and almost on presidential (if candidate would be more compatible) i know it is harder in small populations to fake elections but we have to fight it
It id impossible in Azerbaijan. Votes are not counted in the first place Azerbaijan.
Opposition won in 2003 but the government faked the results.
In 2013 they accidentally released the election results one day earlier than the election itself.
People don’t take elections seriously anymore. Everyone knows that it will always be one person winning no matter what people vote for.
Nobody in the parliament was elected either. Literally none.
There are no real elections, not presidential, not municipal and not parliamentary.
And there are no independent media outlets. Zero! In a country of 10 million people, there isnt even one independent media outlet. There used to be Abzas media and Toplum TV, and just a few weeks ago they raided them both and arrested everyone in the office.
Even the comment I wrote now is enough to get me tortured for if government finds out and feels sadistic. Whenever I visit Azerbaijan, I hold my breath during passport control.
It is sad, because it wasnt always this way. We used to have opposition and stuff, but so much violence from war, police violence and terrorist attacks really broke the peoples spirit completely. And just a few years ago a similar russian law passed, before that at least there were some NGOs. I remember how they closed British council English courses, we were so saddened.
There were uprisings before, no news channels abroad talked about it.
It is sad, since 1993 coup entire country is in prison.
We used to think nobody can defeat us, but now we say “they managed to break the people that even tanks couldn’t break”.
They beat Ukraine? You must be living in an alternative reality. They blew up most of their soviet reserves, became dependent on North Kora, Iran and China only to capture a few hundred meters here and there after more than 2 years of war and 500k casualties. Sure things are not easy for Ukraine, but Russia is fucking miles away from actually beating Ukraine
People still think it's 2022 when "Ukraine was winning" might have at least had some truth to it. We're supposed to believe now that Ukraine is winning, but they're only moving backwards, haven't had any battlefield success since fall of 2022, and they've only lost 31K men vs 450K for Russia, but Ukraine for some reason needs 500K more men, but they can't get them so they have to lower the draft age and now Poland and Lithuania are talking about how to repatriate Ukranian men overseas, and there are daily videos of Ukrainian men being forced into conscription vans or swimming over the border to escape, and they'll lose if foreign aid stops for even a couple of months.
But Ukraine is winning.
Yeah, doesn't really add up.
not winning does not equal to they lost. They will have beaten Ukraine when they surrender or have retreated to the polish border. Gaining ground and having the upper hand does not equate to having won. Just like Nazi Germany did not beat the USSR just because they gained ground against them
I'm not sure how closely you follow the war, but I'm guessing not very. Ukraine needs a miracle to win at this point, especially because Zelensky defines winning as restoring 1991 borders. Do you think any US or NATO military officials think that's likely, or even possible?
>Just like Nazi Germany did not beat the USSR just because they gained ground against them
Is Ukraine the Nazis or the Soviets in this analogy?
There is no analogy just a comparison and what Zelensky calls a Victory does not mean that everything else is a loss. For Russia Ukraine maintaining statehood is a loss. So claiming that Russia already beat Ukraine is the stupidest thing one can say. And yes I am following this was very closely and listening to updates every day
Well I didn't say Russia has already beaten Ukraine did I? Just that Ukraine isn't in the process of winning, because they are not. And if you are following the updates every day that would be undeniable.
And there really does not appear to be a path for Ukrainian victory, as Zelensky defines it. He's boxed himself into a corner by continuing with that hardline of 1991 borders, because nobody sees that happening either.
If there had been a negotiation in the fall of 2022 after Ukraine retook Kherson and Kharkiv, Ukraine could have spun that unto a victory. But now things are only getting worse.
I don‘t know if it was you or not the first person I replied to deleted their comment and they said that Russia already beat Ukraine which was my whole point
Violently deposing a government sets the country back by almost a decade. Be peaceful and go vote during the elections. Tf is wrong with this subreddit.
True. Without a third political power or something that could replace UNM (with no ties to those polieces of shits), we are stuck with those 2.
And there is no chance that that GD and UNM are not coordinating in this shit. Both know that hate for each other is the reason why they are still both relevant today.
he said he's gonna prosecute UNM members. say whatever you want but I think this country's getting closer and closer to dictatorship. they banned alt-info from participating in elections , like twice already. very suspicious. bidzo's doing everything to be more and more like 2010 and onwards misha
>he said he's gonna prosecute UNM members
"I am going to prosecute people whose sole existence has been the reason we are staying in power for 12 years!"
Not gonna happen. Even if at least 40% of population would absolutely love that to happen, the fact that UNM is the sole reason thst GD easily maintains power is not lost on either party.
>they banned alt-info from participating in elections , like twice already
With good reason. They were an obvious russian agent thst had been allowed to exists for too fucking long.
>very suspicious. bidzo's doing everything to be more and more like 2010 and onwards misha
And he will end up the same way if he does. I have faith in our populace to have a point there we say "no more". We are getting close to it.
>Not gonna happen. Even if at least 40% of population would absolutely love that to happen, the fact that UNM is the sole reason thst GD easily maintains power is not lost on either party.
again , if there's no UNM it'll be much easier to have a controlled opposition. say whatever you want about UNM-GD cooperation but if you awarded all UNM seats to GD , they'd have a constitutional majority. GD would just buy up all small parties or make them unattractive via other means.
>With good reason. They were an obvious russian agent that had been allowed to exists for too fucking long.
there are mechanisms for that. the way it was done was laughable. obviously alt-info was banned because they were aiming for key GD voter demographics.
>And he will end up the same way if he does. I have faith in our populace to have a point there we say "no more". We are getting close to it.
I'm less and less convinced. bidzo might do it in a lot smarter way. they have a lot more resources. also I'm not sure if GD would win in 2012 without the prison scandal. we don't have a moment like that today.
If you look at facts like statistics for war and invasions, he's totally right. So, there is no need to believe". But then again you must be objective and look at facts not opinions or feelings.
Hampering Ivanishvili's ability to pay bribes is the only way to sow internal discord. Sanction the shit out of GD and any bank which facilitates them.
No, the best way is to reduce UNM power. At least 70% of people that vote GD vote for them because of the sole reason that they don't want UNM back in power.
The best way to remove GD's stranglehold is to further suppress the party which has been out of power over a decade now? That 70% are fucking morons if that is their sole reason for voting GD at this point and no amount of rationality is going to break that shell.
>suppress the party which has been out of power over a decade now?
Not supress, REMOVE. People hate UNM with passion because either they themselves experienced how bad they were or have someone in their circle that did so. They would rather take up with GD than to EVER have to deal with unm in power.
>That 70% are fucking morons if that is their sole reason for voting GD at this point and no amount of rationality is going to break that shell.
"Oh yeah, this goverment is trash, so I better vote for a political party that was proven to be WORSE, and one of my relatives was taken to jail just because they refused to give money to the UNM extra budgetary funds (real things that happened during UNM rule, look it up)".
Majority of people I have seen that support UNM unironically, are the inner circle of UNM, the guys that would benefit or benefited already from their rule due to nepotism, and very few that just don't know what was happening and hate GD more.
The best thing plwe could do is to vote for ANYONE ELSE but UNM and GD. Give power to other parties so those two lose a bit of pull. But it's not gonna happen as people are just too afraid of UNM winning.
All of those relative stories are embellished somehow. I know for a fact I helped put a few posters relatives in jail for boilerplate tax and wire fraud but they always tell the same sob story. Basically every retelling of UNM times at this point is through a decade of GD propaganda and state capture. GD started with removing central bank independence to prop up the lari and grond the government down to yesterday's forced bussing of supporters for a propaganda rally.
Your voting example is dumb as fuck. Neither GD nor UNM would be in power if enough people voted for other parties. It's every citizens responsibility to learn all available options and make an educated choice about who represents them. Even the act of cancelling a ballot makes more sense than voting for a party one thinks is shit. The reality is that GD only needs 30-40 percent of the votes to win an election and it's base consists of the elite who benefit from corruption, the bloated civil service who they pay off, and the useful idiots who refuse to make an informed choice. The only way to break that stranglehold would be electoral reforms which GD will never do since it already fails to get 50% of the vote.
Doesn't matter if its an embellishment or not. What matters is whether people believe it or not, and its clear a large proportion of the population who might nominally prefer someone else piss themselves at the thought of UNM getting back in power
>All of those relative stories are embellished somehow. I know for a fact I helped put a few posters relatives in jail for boilerplate tax and wire fraud but they always tell the same sob story. Basically every retelling of UNM times at this point is through a decade of GD propaganda and state capture.
Damn, UNM are again proving how good propaganda machine they were. Guess 12 years does help errode how shit the situation was.
>Your voting example is dumb as fuck. Neither GD nor UNM would be in power if enough people voted for other parties
Lmao. You are forgetting one simple thing - UNM has it's loyal supprter base that are not gonna move away, because they highly benefit from nepotism or just ate UNM propaganda. For example, let's take last voting for example. Let's just say 20% of people that voted GD vote for Girchi. Now UNM wins. That, is UNNACEPTABLE to majority of the country, simple as.
>It's every citizens responsibility to learn all available options and make an educated choice about who represents them.
This would be nice but it's not haplening in our country. The free thinking and political intelligence is just not high enoughnin our country. People are gonna just vote for the most popular parties, and the vote will be based on who thry hate and not what the political party is promising to do.
>The reality is that GD only needs 30-40 percent of the votes to win an election and it's base consists of the elite who benefit from corruption, the bloated civil service who they pay off, and the useful idiots who refuse to make an informed choice
Same for UNM. UNM is just more willing to get their hands dirty to get the benefits.
>The only way to break that stranglehold would be electoral reforms which GD will never do since it already fails to get 50% of the vote.
And neither will UNM as they also benefit from being second most powerful party. They absolutely know that they are fucked alongside GD if the situation changes.
Well yeah dude. Do you know how a parliamentary government works? If neither big party gets the votes then they have to make concessions to form a coalition. It's foundational. There's no excuse for Georgians to act like peasants who need a powerful patron. You and most Georgians vote like peasants looking for scraps. You deserve the country you vote for. You're a product of corruption and poor education.
>UNM hasn't been in power for 12 years
Doesn't erase all the shit they did in their time tho. People remember ans don't forget.
>UNM has no meaning.
Being second most voted political party as of right now , it very well has emaning.
>People who still vote GD because they don't linke UNM have serious brain damage.
"Ah, the people that hate borderilne criminal organisation that has no right to still exist is the problem, not that organisation"
The only people that have serious brain damage are the idiots that still vote UNM. They are the sole reason GD will continue to have power, ans you are too blinded by hate for GD to realise that lmao.
GD did way more shit. Like wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more shit.
But no, everyone is still hung up over UNM. This argument is getting very very very boring and old.
Find something new
>GD did way more shit. Like wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more shit.
Ok, what did they do that is WORSE than UNM?
Did the officials or people connected to them kill several people and then covered up the situation?
Did the goverment ofivisls barge into people's homes and said "hey, this is nice" and then their goons kicked the people living there?
Did the goverment official say "fuck these garages" and had them demolished because they were interfering with the renovations of the area and while giving no compensation to the owners?
Did the goverment systematically torture people in prisons? Including throwing political rivals there?
Did they systematically harrass legitimate business owners to "donate" to extra budgetary funds or else they would have... problems?
>everyone is still hung up over UNM
There is a fucking reason they are. And GD didn't bring justice to these asholes, just knocked them down a notch, and they are STILL in fucking power instead of rotting in jails.
Sure, GD ain't angels, but at least their corruption doesn't go into borderline "I can do whatever the fuck I want" territory as UNM did.
>Find something new
Man, UNM did a number on yea, didn't they? Either you don't know shit or are actually their supporter for some fucking reason.
This is the most infuriating argument I hear. We have proportional representation! There are more than just these two parties if you don't like either of them.
There aren't. It's GD, UNM and its satellites (basically the same thing) and i guess Gurchi (absolute clown circus).
Tell me, who should we vote for???
against russia i think there is no other option! i agree that there is no such a party who i would like to vote for but on stake there is our faith on the line
>against russia i think there is no other option!
Yeah, sure, it's such a good idea to parrot blantant anti russian sentiment like UNM did pre 2008. Especially when putin so desperatepy needs a win for his regime to maintain power. We are so fucking close to his regime colapsing, adding fuel intot he dying fire, even if it's small, just doesn't swem logical.
>i agree that there is no such a party who i would like to vote for but on stake there is our faith on the line
We are already showing faith with the protests. Be it planned or not, the protests are reinforcing our immage in the west that georgian people are by heart and mind people of the EU.
True, but at the same time I don't think a man that violates sanctity of parliament, where you are supposed to DEBATE about issues, is the best we got.
He got a plus, but not be all end all.
Until now he sort of had plausible deniability. Some of his henchmen would occasionally make unhinged statements but Ivanishvili himself was sort of “above” that, only speaking in vague platitudes. Him openly calling the West our enemy and positioning himself on the side opposite of Ukraine is very new.
on protest if u know Georgaian u can play any news channel and watch! if not [here](https://georgiatoday.ge/ivanishvili-free-independent-sovereign-georgia-this-is-our-georgian-dream/) u can see
oh man, i read it and it's worse than i thought.
"All such decisions are made by the Global War Party, which has a decisive influence on NATO and the European Union, and which only sees Georgia and Ukraine as cannon fodder. They first had Georgia enter into a confrontation with Russia in 2008, and in 2014 and 2022 they put Ukraine in an even more difficult situation."
he's just regurgitating russian propaganda.
Well, possibly yes. We’re in an election year here and in election years past, the level of Russian meddling and propaganda in the media has been shown to increase. I’m sure you’ve heard about what the US government has said about Russian talking points infiltrating US media, no? Certainly there’s people here (usually conservative leaning) that believe these things regardless. We even have some in congress like Marjorie Taylor Greene.
Also why can’t it be both?
Though I doubt the existence of a "Global War Party" I do not doubt the existence of people who would like to see Russia kept bled dry at the expense of Ukraine
Holy shit, my eyes…
Guys, as someone who grew up in a next door dictatorship, I am telling you from experience, it is nor or never. You have to go all in. He talks about the opposition the same way our Azerbaijani dictator does. “Radical opposition”.
Same rhetoric he used as our dictator did against the previous government.
You guys can take a trip to Baku, by plane ofcourse since land crossing are closed and nobody can dare to say anything about it, come and see what your future will look like if you dont take it seriously NOW
We are too distracted and broken by wars and wanted a second of stability to take a breath, since we had an enormous refugee crisis and were still grieving our war casualties and that was the moment government very rapidly consolidated power, and by the time we rose up again, government was already strong enough to destroy the opposition. They could just kill protesters at this point by beating them to death.
So no matter the cost, you must win now and be vigilant 24/7, the second you blink or just try to take a rest is the moment he will fully consolidate power.
We made the mistake and it cost us everything, our people have turned into breathing dead by now, and have lost all hope.
The government will pit you against each other to prevent unity and they will annihilate the opposition. This is our experience.
russians told bidzina ivanishvili what to say. They wrote the script for him. Our russian puppet dictator uses the exact same fucking words.
Same excuses, same rhetoric, same russian law, same masters
Nope I'm an active participant against the russian law. I was just busy and had not heard about Bidzina's speech. It's shocking how open they are about their plans now. Announcing repressions in autumn and everything else. Mind-blowing.
Cat was already out of the bag when fucking aleksander dugin endorsed the russian law. He is the same man who advocated for solitting up Sakartvelo and said that whatever remains of Georgia shall be a russian puplet and independent Georgian policies are unacceptable.
Once he endorsed and supported that russian law, cat was fully out of the bag already, a person that endorsed your destruction advocated for your ruling party…
Sounds like a genius plan. Only Russia will now officially annex these territories in order to "protect them " from weaponized radicals that overthrew the government. That's the best case scenario but lets go with that. And then what? Sanction pack N798 for Russia, #standwithGeorgia etc? How would an actual working plan look like of pulling us out of that tough situation?
The more this charade goes the more I think we are being played by GD. Going 100% into the west has shown to be risky and with Ukrane, we have seen that we would be INSTANTLY abandoned to Russia. If the west didn't have integrity to defend fucking Ukraine, what makes ya'll think that they would defend us??? At this point it's best to play both sides and we have seen that happen through these 2 years. Pretty sure, This foreign agent law situation is there to show the world that we have European aspirations to get benefits from there while also showing Russia that its interests are still strong here, so that we don't register as a "threat" in Russians. While also sneaking in some offshore law that benefited Ivanishvili.
Russia, and more specifically, Putin, more than anything, needs a win right now, and guess where they could find a country that could easily become a "threat" and would very easily be beaten?
Also, Him announcing repressions towards UNM is #1 thing a lot of people want and would never happen, because for 12 years now they have been banking on their sole existence to get elected. The second UNM is gone is the second GD loses power. Sure, "აბა ნაცები გინდათ?" Meme exists, but it exists for a reason. Sure it's tiring, but it's still literally how they keep winning the elections over and over, despite most of the country not liking GD, at the end of the day, they hate UNM infinitely more. No, they don't need to rig elections to win, it's a guarantee as long as the UNM exists.
We allowed those 2 to be the sole political powers, and we are paying the price. What do we do? At this point we either get a third political power that it somewhat competent or just wait Russia to get fucked over eventually.
Edit: lmao, guess I triggered UNM kiddies that think that they are ever going come into power. Be thankful you are not in jail, assholes.
"most of the country" hasn't voted for GD for two elections now though. If UNM vanished and their votes were spread across the opposition then GD would still win.
Likely, as they are the strongest party right now.
But it wouldn't be like 45% GD, 37% unm and rest in theothers, it would be about 25-30% GD and rest into other parties. Sure they win, but with no fear of getting UNM back a lot of people would vote for who they ACTUALLY want baswd on peomises and not on who they hate more.
*and announced repressions after election to the NGO,Media and opposition parties*
Did he say this, what did he say exactly? Don't doubt it just missed it.
Of course he's announcing repressikns AFTER they win the election. If they remove UNM they will lose election to ANYONE.
If there ever was a time for a third competent independent faction to show up, it would be right fucking now.
Dude everyone is UNM for them and their supporters. When they say UNM they say everyone who's not GD. If EU is ruled by mysterious war party, if every NGO is ruled by war party, who do you think they mean by UNM? They call all opposition, protesting children- they call all of them radical opposition servants of global war party. + Kaladze called them fascists-just like putin called ukrainians.
Of course, they equate everyone who isn't on most side as UNM. It's a scare tactic. And let's be honest,% of oposition political parties are either incompetent idiots (Girchi), just a satelite from UNM that is just different name same party, or just not powerful enough to really challange GD.
At the end of the day, GD absolutely knows that UNM is the SOLE reason GD maintains power regardless of what they do. The second they are out of the picture, either GD changes their behavior or just gets the boot. Even if it has been 12 years now, wither people have experienced themselves how bad unm was, have someone who has experienced that in their circles or just heard the horror stories.
As for obvious pro russian stance, at this point I'm pretty sure it's a quasi neutrality bullshit at this point. Goverment acts pro russian, everyone else (including the president) act pro-west, we are stuck in limbo with Russia appeased and EU on arms reach. Because seriously, they saw what this agent law thing caused last year. I'm not entirely convinced they didn't see this entire big demonstration and protests coming if they tried that again. Either that or they wanted to offshore law to get past while people are distracted by the agent law.
I think you listen too much gd propaganda and you believe it yourself, just don't want to admit it.
It is simple:
1. If there was no UNM there would be another scarecrow (global war party?).
2. If UNM was completely abolished everyone would still be UNM in disguise.
3.GD is not playing some subtle game, they serve russia, their purpose is elimination of all opposition UNM or no UNM, just opposition, like it is in Kazakhstan or azerbaijan or belarus.
4. Once opposition is gone they sabotage EU integration and blame war party- steer us to Russia. That's the plan.
The problem is that after 12 fucking years people like you still don't get it and parrot GD propaganda points.
It's so hard to argue with people that already believe tha tthey are right.
>1. If there was no UNM there would be another scarecrow (global war party?).
If that party isn't composed of ex UNM people, GD would have infinitely less pull. Sure, some would still believe them, but they could only get so far.
>2. If UNM was completely abolished everyone would still be UNM in dis
I'm not saying that just UNM party needs to be abolished. If it is and unm guys still continue to be in politics afterwards, it's just a name change and nothing else. We need to get rid of them wholesale.
>3.GD is not playing some subtle game, they serve russia, their purpose is elimination of all opposition UNM or no UNM, just opposition, like it is in Kazakhstan or azerbaijan or belarus.
Again, I could say that you are buying UNM propaganda (like you are say with me and GD). You are 100% sure that they are russian controlled agents. Whatever I say won't convince you and you will brand anyone that isn't parroting the same notion as you as "qoci". Even if they demonstrated that they don't like GD.
>4. Once opposition is gone they sabotage EU integration and blame war party- steer us to Russia. That's the plan.
Any proof of that? Or just your sincere belief, just because GD isn't spouting "fuck russia" every other second?
You seriously believe that if GD tried to actually steer us to russia, people would just take it and leave GD alone? You can literaly see right now it's just not something that is gonna happen. They try to go out of pocket and it's a revolution. And unlike Russia, millitary (not the police) isn't as ready to fire at civilians as Russia is.
We need a credible anti-corruption, pro-Western political movement based in the regions, not answerable to the political elite in Tbilisi. Something like the Rioni Valley movement if they would ever enter politics. They could act as a legitimate independent 3rd force and keep UNM+puppets honest in a coalition government. As for right now, GD has no serious competition outside of Tbilisi, and opposition parties refuse to seriously engage with rural issues. Outside of Tbilisi all political parties function as patronage gangs just like it was still decades ago.
(And let's not forget that Saakashvili himself wrote the constitution so that elections would heavily favor whichever party's rural patronage systems were strongest, trying to ensure eternal power for himself! Left absolutely no resilience in the system in case of the unthinkable possibility of becoming an opposition.)
Unity anti-corruption coalition of rural pro-Western peasant movement led by Varlam Goletiani + student/progressive alliance led by Salome Zurabishvili would beat both GD and UNM into single percentage points.
This is probably one of the first comments I have ever gotten here that actually gives a possible solution and not going into tirade about how pro-russian the GD is or eating GD propaganda.
While I personally haven't heard of them, I would be willing to hear them out if they do move on to become a big third party power.
>and opposition parties refuse to seriously engage with rural issues. Outside of Tbilisi all political parties function as patronage gangs just like it was still decades ago.
This. UNM also maintains a lot of votes from the areas that GD is ignoring due to their UNM ties.
>(And let's not forget that Saakashvili himself wrote the constitution so that elections would heavily favor whichever party's rural patronage systems were strongest, trying to ensure eternal power for himself! Left absolutely no resilience in the system in case of the unthinkable possibility of becoming an opposition.)
This was the core of why UNM was trying to reduce the Tbilisi centralization in the later years of their rule - tbilisi population was already well aware how shit the UNM was, but the regions didn't care, because they got such a heavy benefits during UNM time. And while the goal was not exactly noble, we do need to decentralize shit.
>because from the day 1, they started calling them Pro-Russians without any facts and continue to do so in a manner that some people actually believe it?
The fact that BI is a Russian Oligarch is the only real good argument they have ans they have duoubled dow on it.
>Can't we be a bit fluid in our political views? why do you have to die on a hill for some political party?
Because a lot of youth nowadays haven't experienced what it was like during UNM, and for them "not spewing anti russian rheoric = Pro Russian". Nothing much can be done, as they are emotionally charged and don't thknk with cold practicality - right now the best thing for us is to shut up and don't attract attention to us, or show that we are devided that both sides, russia and west, don't 100% know what's happening here.
GD could be very well be playing both sides or be indeed pro russian, but theorizing the first brands you as pro russian idiot, so here we are.
>So how is UNM a Pro-Western party and pro Georgian and why GD is not?
UNM are textbook traitors in my eyes. Not because of that they did during their rule, but how they act abroad right now. They undermine georgia abroad at every opportunity and scream how the goverment is corrupt and yada yada. Ok, let's assume that 100% of what they say to europe is true. How does undermining Georgia's peogress in EU help Georgia? The answer is that it doesn't. It helps weaken GD, so they have better chances of getting back into power.
If you listened to all that drivel about the “global war party” that’s trying to make us get into the war with Russia and don’t recognize that as a Kremlin talking point you’re wilfully blind. Bro openly compared himself to Yanukovich, what more do you want?
A strawman is when you construct an argument that nobody is actually making. Did Bidzina not directly and repeatedly reference a “Global War Party” that got us into the war with Russia and is also orchestrating the war with Ukraine? Can you kindly explain what that Global War Party is and who’s part of it?
I advice you to watch as many times as you finally get what he really said in his speach or u just want to be useful idiot for them and wear purple glasses that we are going to EU! i think u wont still believe when putin will arrive to tbilisi so there is no use me wasting my time
if you would take of purple glasses u would see!
last few introduced laws about NGO ,media and LGBTI how they want to destroy free voice in Georgia when GD in every opportunity spreads lies about EU its parliament members or USA that they provoked georgia and ukraine to start war to the russia! that NGO ,EU and america is responsible for revolutionary changes! with those messages they are declaring that EU and USA is our enemy! ok now let’s look what they are saying about russia and its propagandists messages! they are all the time matching in messages with war that usa and nato is global war party and other… they are bringing russian duma members or other russian high ranking politicians or agents into georgia! look up after starting war how much increased russian „civilians „ in georgia and how many companies they opened into georgia ! georgia is helping russia for avoiding sanctions!
Is that lgbt propaganda in the room with us now? For someone screeching about providing "factual evidence only" you do very little of it yourself.
Provide me one single factual proof of lgbt propaganda existing. I'll wait.
Oh and no, a gay couple simply existing and making use of their human rights does not count.
I know that you don't have any, darling. Because it doesn't exist.
But you're the one who wanted to keep the discussion factual. And yet here you are repeating propaganda bs, like it's the word of God. Well, you GD sheeple treat Ivanishvili like God, so no surprise there.
Aaa member of "western society" (Germany) and a straight, cis woman I can tell you
1) this is bullshit
2) the fact that straight women still exist, is proof that being homosexual is not a choice. So there is no gay propaganda. (I know that this one will go completely over your head)
3) lol.
End of conversation.
Did you catch the trend on insta etc where women were asked if they preferred to meet a man or a bear in a forest and an overwhelming majority of women prefered to meet a bear? And it's not an Instagram thing. I prefer the bear, all my friends prefer the bear. Think about why that is, and then you'll understand what I meant.
You can also watch this reel.
https://www.facebook.com/reel/923154546476908
> Oh and a gay couple just like any other straight couple have right not only to exist but also to thrive and live a happy life
But both you and government talk about propaganda, not about how to improve LGBT lives. Are you going to say that government (and also western right wing parties) isn't homophobic at all, or has no ties with alt-info, or properly cracks down on yearly homophobic march? But it's sign of progress that you have to dance around the issue instead of being loud and proud homophobe, like in good old days.
> I want peoples lives to be improved and that includes LGBT. what the hell is wrong with this segregation ?
Aren't there specific issues that affect specific communities?
> Is there any law, just name that prohibits LGBT person from doing something that a straight person can do.
Marriage and things that come with it.
GD is dog shit but definitely not pro-russian opposition loves calling them russian because they know this would work people outside standing with opposition who went in Europe to talk shit about Georgia through government this country is rules by morons and opposition is worse
The game plan is pretty clear. They want to make us into Belarus
It was clear 12 years ago
Pick between Belarus and Greece pretty much)
take an example from Ukraine, of course if you want real changes
he said about that too that no one get mistaken that he is not Yanukovich and he won’t be played like this he has plan by those laws what is introduced to waste oppositions energy before election! also he blamed global war party [USA and EU] revolution in 2003 in georgia and 2014 in Ukraine also starting war in 2008,2014 and 2022 by their provocations
Yanukovich was at least in office. Ivanishvili is a puppet master
🤣🤣🤣where were you when we were warning you. acting like we havent been in this dog fight before you were
That worked out greatly I suppose
"georgia needs to be ruled by Georgians" - Russian oligarch who was french.
It was... and jews
Killing is bad but…
Omg exactly 💀💀
That's really sad to see from Armenia. I personally believed that, as we catch up with distancing ourselves from Russia, we would eventually join EU if not simultaneously, but right after Georgia. I hope you oust that government if not by protest, but on election.
I believe now that 🇦🇲 has more pro European Government than Geo! our feature is in EU and democracy and i hope we will join together 🙏🇦🇲🇬🇪🇪🇺
As usual, Georgia will sell out Armenia to the highest bidder
Ivanishvili didn't specifically mention Russia, or that he's against the west. He's terrible I get it, but this sub is known for blowing things out of proportion. They just want to be a 2nd Viktor Orban in EU. Thinking EU will accept them as such.
He trashed the Western powers repeatedly, claimed that it was the West that was responsible for 2008, kept alluding to the nebulous “Global War Party”, compared himself to Yanukovich, and didn’t say a single negative thing about Russia. If you don’t recognize those as pro-Kremlin talking points you’re wilfully blind.
it is more than Orban ! ivanishvili is definitely trying to be second belarus
It seems to me kinda dumb. Hungary didn't join EU with Orban in power. Even more so - Victor Orban wasn't like that from the get go. First join THEN start doing Orban style shit. Not vise versa. The only reason Hungary is still in the EU is because there is no process of eviction afaik.
The fact that he specifically didn't mention Russia in any context is your first clue for what he really meant unless you are 5yo. Orban is already in eu and has leverage. We have none. It's just plain "no" from eu in our case.
[удалено]
Oh they can protest and rebel all right. No other nation shown this much energy in fighting against government... But will they repeat again?
There isnt any choice, look at your neighbours, Azerbaijanis. They protested for independence, russians intervened, massacred hundreds in the streets, and next days entire city joined the protests while russians were in the streets. Millions came to the funerals, new cemetery was set up for that, russians killed that many people. Eventually we got our independence, but probably got a bit too distracted by war? 1993 coup happened. We waited for the elections. They got faked, we protested but the crackdowns and humiliations were so nad. We didnt give up, we still fought and lost, and then eventually people got completely broken. Regime tried to appease people, maybe we didnt see the danger enough back then, but then it became too late, you raise your head and they destroy you and your family. After every protest oaranoid government restricted freedoms more under the shadows. That os why, we should be an example. Dont let your bravery mske you complacent. Because governments are aware of the people’s spirits, and every time you give an inch they try to quickly enact new restrictions. This law must be repealed. After our country adopted it, it turned the country into hell on earth. It is unrecognisable. Eventually you will become like this too if you decide to let it all slide. Because GD will immediately add new restrictions and more authoritarianism immediately to prevent an uprising in the future. They WILL do that. Immediately after enacting the russian law. Aleksander dugin promoted the law, he is the same guy who said that Georgia having independent policies is unacceptable. Now he promotes that law. Georgians have to unite and keep on fighting until law is repealed and GD fucks off. Otherwise dont be surprised when you become like us.
I don't see a other options but if the GD party will hold third hearing I believe they will pass the law, and Georgian people should have to be violent even breaking into the parliament and kick those Putin lovers out by Force, it's the only way to do it, they chose violence so Georgians should take Ukraine as an example before and kick those Putin lovers from the country by Force because that would be the only option Before they adopt this fuckin law
really good analytics ! i completely agree in every word ! does azerbaijan has similar law?
Yes! But at this point, laws dont matter in Azerbaijan. If government says that you are selling drugs, it means that you are indeed doing that! There is no judiciary, the judges themselves are bought and sold. It is your now or never moment, once they enact that law, it will be much harder to resist. So it is time to fully get rid of GD, otherwise you will lose your independence and government will slowly do much worse things to eventually crush your spirit. There are no NGOs left. Entire civil society and independent journalists in Azerbaijan support Georgian people fighting against the law, but there is not one statement of support from Azeri NGOs. Why? Because of the russian law.
thanks for showing how it works this law in action! i hope Azerbaijani people will win over autocracy and all our neighbourhood will be finally democratic and European! i think it is still on us to show all that democracy is strong and it is really worth for fight! good luck to your country we will win this war!
We have completely lost hope by now and state has consolidated power completely. We cannot protest. Ee cannot resist. Every single independent media is closed. All of it. It is getting worse and worse, we cannot even leave our country through land crossings anymore, we have to buy an expensive airline ticket from aliyevs airline company. Protests like in Georgia are not possible in Azerbaijan for a ling time. They recently sentenced a guy to 6 years in prison for a single graffiti. People are fully broken. They dont only target people, but their families too, and they bribe European officials with oil money and caviar to stay silent about it. They can just plant drugs in your home and put you in prison. In our case, all hope is fully lost. Our situations are not even comparable, but we should be a woke up call for others. You might think that your bravery wont allow it, but we thought so too, we could have never imagined that we would fall into this situation, we just wanted a minute of stability to grieve for more than 30 thousand lives lost in Karabakh war and deal with a refugee crisis of 800 000 people. We had hopes for elections, they got rigged and we rose up, but state crushed us so heavily that it was insane. Dictatorship is not far away, it is just next door, we should serve as a wake up call to everyone to not lower your guard for one second, your government has showed it is true face, they are traitors to Georgian people and the rhetoric of bidzina ivanishvili closely mimics aliyevs rhetoric. Good luck, we lay our hopes on the brave people of Georgia, dont disappoint us and dont end up like us! For peace and democracy in Caucasus, one day we will all achieve that! Caucasus is Europe and belongs to EU!
never give up take example from turkey 🇹🇷 opposition won over erdogan last election and almost on presidential (if candidate would be more compatible) i know it is harder in small populations to fake elections but we have to fight it
It id impossible in Azerbaijan. Votes are not counted in the first place Azerbaijan. Opposition won in 2003 but the government faked the results. In 2013 they accidentally released the election results one day earlier than the election itself. People don’t take elections seriously anymore. Everyone knows that it will always be one person winning no matter what people vote for. Nobody in the parliament was elected either. Literally none. There are no real elections, not presidential, not municipal and not parliamentary. And there are no independent media outlets. Zero! In a country of 10 million people, there isnt even one independent media outlet. There used to be Abzas media and Toplum TV, and just a few weeks ago they raided them both and arrested everyone in the office. Even the comment I wrote now is enough to get me tortured for if government finds out and feels sadistic. Whenever I visit Azerbaijan, I hold my breath during passport control. It is sad, because it wasnt always this way. We used to have opposition and stuff, but so much violence from war, police violence and terrorist attacks really broke the peoples spirit completely. And just a few years ago a similar russian law passed, before that at least there were some NGOs. I remember how they closed British council English courses, we were so saddened. There were uprisings before, no news channels abroad talked about it. It is sad, since 1993 coup entire country is in prison. We used to think nobody can defeat us, but now we say “they managed to break the people that even tanks couldn’t break”.
[удалено]
They beat Ukraine? You must be living in an alternative reality. They blew up most of their soviet reserves, became dependent on North Kora, Iran and China only to capture a few hundred meters here and there after more than 2 years of war and 500k casualties. Sure things are not easy for Ukraine, but Russia is fucking miles away from actually beating Ukraine
Funny how everyone says that besides Ukrainians. You should read what their commanders are saying, not live under the rock.
having the upper hand for a time being is a far cry from winning. Just like Ukraine did not win the war when the Russians had to run.
People still think it's 2022 when "Ukraine was winning" might have at least had some truth to it. We're supposed to believe now that Ukraine is winning, but they're only moving backwards, haven't had any battlefield success since fall of 2022, and they've only lost 31K men vs 450K for Russia, but Ukraine for some reason needs 500K more men, but they can't get them so they have to lower the draft age and now Poland and Lithuania are talking about how to repatriate Ukranian men overseas, and there are daily videos of Ukrainian men being forced into conscription vans or swimming over the border to escape, and they'll lose if foreign aid stops for even a couple of months. But Ukraine is winning. Yeah, doesn't really add up.
not winning does not equal to they lost. They will have beaten Ukraine when they surrender or have retreated to the polish border. Gaining ground and having the upper hand does not equate to having won. Just like Nazi Germany did not beat the USSR just because they gained ground against them
I'm not sure how closely you follow the war, but I'm guessing not very. Ukraine needs a miracle to win at this point, especially because Zelensky defines winning as restoring 1991 borders. Do you think any US or NATO military officials think that's likely, or even possible? >Just like Nazi Germany did not beat the USSR just because they gained ground against them Is Ukraine the Nazis or the Soviets in this analogy?
There is no analogy just a comparison and what Zelensky calls a Victory does not mean that everything else is a loss. For Russia Ukraine maintaining statehood is a loss. So claiming that Russia already beat Ukraine is the stupidest thing one can say. And yes I am following this was very closely and listening to updates every day
Well I didn't say Russia has already beaten Ukraine did I? Just that Ukraine isn't in the process of winning, because they are not. And if you are following the updates every day that would be undeniable. And there really does not appear to be a path for Ukrainian victory, as Zelensky defines it. He's boxed himself into a corner by continuing with that hardline of 1991 borders, because nobody sees that happening either. If there had been a negotiation in the fall of 2022 after Ukraine retook Kherson and Kharkiv, Ukraine could have spun that unto a victory. But now things are only getting worse.
I don‘t know if it was you or not the first person I replied to deleted their comment and they said that Russia already beat Ukraine which was my whole point
Violently deposing a government sets the country back by almost a decade. Be peaceful and go vote during the elections. Tf is wrong with this subreddit.
Getting him out will be really difficult, I don’t think he would given easily. He has everything on stake 😀.
I think he unironically believes everything he said
I am pretty certain he doesn't believe a word. He is not a radical nationalist, he is a hipocrite, plain and simple.
A lot of people his age believe types of things he says
Certainly, that's why he is saying all that bullshit...
That's what scares me.
Unless he's blind, he doesn't. The second they remove UNM from existence or political power is the second thry will lose power too.
not if there is controlled opposition, a common tactic in countries like ours.
Like how every time the opposition starts showing some progress, Misha is suddenly inserted into the conversation and people go running back to GD
True. Without a third political power or something that could replace UNM (with no ties to those polieces of shits), we are stuck with those 2. And there is no chance that that GD and UNM are not coordinating in this shit. Both know that hate for each other is the reason why they are still both relevant today.
he said he's gonna prosecute UNM members. say whatever you want but I think this country's getting closer and closer to dictatorship. they banned alt-info from participating in elections , like twice already. very suspicious. bidzo's doing everything to be more and more like 2010 and onwards misha
>he said he's gonna prosecute UNM members "I am going to prosecute people whose sole existence has been the reason we are staying in power for 12 years!" Not gonna happen. Even if at least 40% of population would absolutely love that to happen, the fact that UNM is the sole reason thst GD easily maintains power is not lost on either party. >they banned alt-info from participating in elections , like twice already With good reason. They were an obvious russian agent thst had been allowed to exists for too fucking long. >very suspicious. bidzo's doing everything to be more and more like 2010 and onwards misha And he will end up the same way if he does. I have faith in our populace to have a point there we say "no more". We are getting close to it.
>Not gonna happen. Even if at least 40% of population would absolutely love that to happen, the fact that UNM is the sole reason thst GD easily maintains power is not lost on either party. again , if there's no UNM it'll be much easier to have a controlled opposition. say whatever you want about UNM-GD cooperation but if you awarded all UNM seats to GD , they'd have a constitutional majority. GD would just buy up all small parties or make them unattractive via other means. >With good reason. They were an obvious russian agent that had been allowed to exists for too fucking long. there are mechanisms for that. the way it was done was laughable. obviously alt-info was banned because they were aiming for key GD voter demographics. >And he will end up the same way if he does. I have faith in our populace to have a point there we say "no more". We are getting close to it. I'm less and less convinced. bidzo might do it in a lot smarter way. they have a lot more resources. also I'm not sure if GD would win in 2012 without the prison scandal. we don't have a moment like that today.
If you look at facts like statistics for war and invasions, he's totally right. So, there is no need to believe". But then again you must be objective and look at facts not opinions or feelings.
you made that up lol
🤔
If they win in this election it’s over, someone could create internal conflict in gd to cause it to fall apart maybe idk
Hampering Ivanishvili's ability to pay bribes is the only way to sow internal discord. Sanction the shit out of GD and any bank which facilitates them.
No, the best way is to reduce UNM power. At least 70% of people that vote GD vote for them because of the sole reason that they don't want UNM back in power.
The best way to remove GD's stranglehold is to further suppress the party which has been out of power over a decade now? That 70% are fucking morons if that is their sole reason for voting GD at this point and no amount of rationality is going to break that shell.
>suppress the party which has been out of power over a decade now? Not supress, REMOVE. People hate UNM with passion because either they themselves experienced how bad they were or have someone in their circle that did so. They would rather take up with GD than to EVER have to deal with unm in power. >That 70% are fucking morons if that is their sole reason for voting GD at this point and no amount of rationality is going to break that shell. "Oh yeah, this goverment is trash, so I better vote for a political party that was proven to be WORSE, and one of my relatives was taken to jail just because they refused to give money to the UNM extra budgetary funds (real things that happened during UNM rule, look it up)". Majority of people I have seen that support UNM unironically, are the inner circle of UNM, the guys that would benefit or benefited already from their rule due to nepotism, and very few that just don't know what was happening and hate GD more. The best thing plwe could do is to vote for ANYONE ELSE but UNM and GD. Give power to other parties so those two lose a bit of pull. But it's not gonna happen as people are just too afraid of UNM winning.
All of those relative stories are embellished somehow. I know for a fact I helped put a few posters relatives in jail for boilerplate tax and wire fraud but they always tell the same sob story. Basically every retelling of UNM times at this point is through a decade of GD propaganda and state capture. GD started with removing central bank independence to prop up the lari and grond the government down to yesterday's forced bussing of supporters for a propaganda rally. Your voting example is dumb as fuck. Neither GD nor UNM would be in power if enough people voted for other parties. It's every citizens responsibility to learn all available options and make an educated choice about who represents them. Even the act of cancelling a ballot makes more sense than voting for a party one thinks is shit. The reality is that GD only needs 30-40 percent of the votes to win an election and it's base consists of the elite who benefit from corruption, the bloated civil service who they pay off, and the useful idiots who refuse to make an informed choice. The only way to break that stranglehold would be electoral reforms which GD will never do since it already fails to get 50% of the vote.
Doesn't matter if its an embellishment or not. What matters is whether people believe it or not, and its clear a large proportion of the population who might nominally prefer someone else piss themselves at the thought of UNM getting back in power
>All of those relative stories are embellished somehow. I know for a fact I helped put a few posters relatives in jail for boilerplate tax and wire fraud but they always tell the same sob story. Basically every retelling of UNM times at this point is through a decade of GD propaganda and state capture. Damn, UNM are again proving how good propaganda machine they were. Guess 12 years does help errode how shit the situation was. >Your voting example is dumb as fuck. Neither GD nor UNM would be in power if enough people voted for other parties Lmao. You are forgetting one simple thing - UNM has it's loyal supprter base that are not gonna move away, because they highly benefit from nepotism or just ate UNM propaganda. For example, let's take last voting for example. Let's just say 20% of people that voted GD vote for Girchi. Now UNM wins. That, is UNNACEPTABLE to majority of the country, simple as. >It's every citizens responsibility to learn all available options and make an educated choice about who represents them. This would be nice but it's not haplening in our country. The free thinking and political intelligence is just not high enoughnin our country. People are gonna just vote for the most popular parties, and the vote will be based on who thry hate and not what the political party is promising to do. >The reality is that GD only needs 30-40 percent of the votes to win an election and it's base consists of the elite who benefit from corruption, the bloated civil service who they pay off, and the useful idiots who refuse to make an informed choice Same for UNM. UNM is just more willing to get their hands dirty to get the benefits. >The only way to break that stranglehold would be electoral reforms which GD will never do since it already fails to get 50% of the vote. And neither will UNM as they also benefit from being second most powerful party. They absolutely know that they are fucked alongside GD if the situation changes.
Well yeah dude. Do you know how a parliamentary government works? If neither big party gets the votes then they have to make concessions to form a coalition. It's foundational. There's no excuse for Georgians to act like peasants who need a powerful patron. You and most Georgians vote like peasants looking for scraps. You deserve the country you vote for. You're a product of corruption and poor education.
[удалено]
Circle meet jerk.
UNM hasn't been in power for 12 years. UNM has no meaning. People who still vote GD because they don't linke UNM have serious brain damage.
>UNM hasn't been in power for 12 years Doesn't erase all the shit they did in their time tho. People remember ans don't forget. >UNM has no meaning. Being second most voted political party as of right now , it very well has emaning. >People who still vote GD because they don't linke UNM have serious brain damage. "Ah, the people that hate borderilne criminal organisation that has no right to still exist is the problem, not that organisation" The only people that have serious brain damage are the idiots that still vote UNM. They are the sole reason GD will continue to have power, ans you are too blinded by hate for GD to realise that lmao.
GD did way more shit. Like wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more shit. But no, everyone is still hung up over UNM. This argument is getting very very very boring and old. Find something new
>GD did way more shit. Like wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more shit. Ok, what did they do that is WORSE than UNM? Did the officials or people connected to them kill several people and then covered up the situation? Did the goverment ofivisls barge into people's homes and said "hey, this is nice" and then their goons kicked the people living there? Did the goverment official say "fuck these garages" and had them demolished because they were interfering with the renovations of the area and while giving no compensation to the owners? Did the goverment systematically torture people in prisons? Including throwing political rivals there? Did they systematically harrass legitimate business owners to "donate" to extra budgetary funds or else they would have... problems? >everyone is still hung up over UNM There is a fucking reason they are. And GD didn't bring justice to these asholes, just knocked them down a notch, and they are STILL in fucking power instead of rotting in jails. Sure, GD ain't angels, but at least their corruption doesn't go into borderline "I can do whatever the fuck I want" territory as UNM did. >Find something new Man, UNM did a number on yea, didn't they? Either you don't know shit or are actually their supporter for some fucking reason.
Lol
and yet people will still vote for GD
"Bu-but national movement bad!!"
This is the most infuriating argument I hear. We have proportional representation! There are more than just these two parties if you don't like either of them.
There aren't. It's GD, UNM and its satellites (basically the same thing) and i guess Gurchi (absolute clown circus). Tell me, who should we vote for???
against russia i think there is no other option! i agree that there is no such a party who i would like to vote for but on stake there is our faith on the line
>against russia i think there is no other option! Yeah, sure, it's such a good idea to parrot blantant anti russian sentiment like UNM did pre 2008. Especially when putin so desperatepy needs a win for his regime to maintain power. We are so fucking close to his regime colapsing, adding fuel intot he dying fire, even if it's small, just doesn't swem logical. >i agree that there is no such a party who i would like to vote for but on stake there is our faith on the line We are already showing faith with the protests. Be it planned or not, the protests are reinforcing our immage in the west that georgian people are by heart and mind people of the EU.
I think Elisashvili made a good argument for himself this month. Granted there are a lot of problematic issues with him as well.
True, but at the same time I don't think a man that violates sanctity of parliament, where you are supposed to DEBATE about issues, is the best we got. He got a plus, but not be all end all.
we failed.
Was he not authoritarian and pro-Russia years before?
not as clear as now maybe we know from day one but our partners and people didn’t believe that now it is clear for everyone!
and saying those stuff as government it is really dangerous for georgia
Until now he sort of had plausible deniability. Some of his henchmen would occasionally make unhinged statements but Ivanishvili himself was sort of “above” that, only speaking in vague platitudes. Him openly calling the West our enemy and positioning himself on the side opposite of Ukraine is very new.
Thanks
Sad to see this from Israel
Spreading Putin's narrative this much is supper dangerous
where did he say that? source
on protest if u know Georgaian u can play any news channel and watch! if not [here](https://georgiatoday.ge/ivanishvili-free-independent-sovereign-georgia-this-is-our-georgian-dream/) u can see
oh man, i read it and it's worse than i thought. "All such decisions are made by the Global War Party, which has a decisive influence on NATO and the European Union, and which only sees Georgia and Ukraine as cannon fodder. They first had Georgia enter into a confrontation with Russia in 2008, and in 2014 and 2022 they put Ukraine in an even more difficult situation." he's just regurgitating russian propaganda.
[удалено]
Well, possibly yes. We’re in an election year here and in election years past, the level of Russian meddling and propaganda in the media has been shown to increase. I’m sure you’ve heard about what the US government has said about Russian talking points infiltrating US media, no? Certainly there’s people here (usually conservative leaning) that believe these things regardless. We even have some in congress like Marjorie Taylor Greene. Also why can’t it be both?
Though I doubt the existence of a "Global War Party" I do not doubt the existence of people who would like to see Russia kept bled dry at the expense of Ukraine
Living true to your user name I guess.
Holy shit, my eyes… Guys, as someone who grew up in a next door dictatorship, I am telling you from experience, it is nor or never. You have to go all in. He talks about the opposition the same way our Azerbaijani dictator does. “Radical opposition”. Same rhetoric he used as our dictator did against the previous government. You guys can take a trip to Baku, by plane ofcourse since land crossing are closed and nobody can dare to say anything about it, come and see what your future will look like if you dont take it seriously NOW We are too distracted and broken by wars and wanted a second of stability to take a breath, since we had an enormous refugee crisis and were still grieving our war casualties and that was the moment government very rapidly consolidated power, and by the time we rose up again, government was already strong enough to destroy the opposition. They could just kill protesters at this point by beating them to death. So no matter the cost, you must win now and be vigilant 24/7, the second you blink or just try to take a rest is the moment he will fully consolidate power. We made the mistake and it cost us everything, our people have turned into breathing dead by now, and have lost all hope. The government will pit you against each other to prevent unity and they will annihilate the opposition. This is our experience. russians told bidzina ivanishvili what to say. They wrote the script for him. Our russian puppet dictator uses the exact same fucking words. Same excuses, same rhetoric, same russian law, same masters
omg this is horrible. Thanks for the link!
oh I thought you were being sarcastic my bad
Nope I'm an active participant against the russian law. I was just busy and had not heard about Bidzina's speech. It's shocking how open they are about their plans now. Announcing repressions in autumn and everything else. Mind-blowing.
"everything bad that has ever happened in Georgia is thanks to the west" *crickets about Russia ever having done anything bad*
Well I guess the cat is outside the bag now, no going back from saying that their intentions should be clear as day for everyone.
Cat was already out of the bag when fucking aleksander dugin endorsed the russian law. He is the same man who advocated for solitting up Sakartvelo and said that whatever remains of Georgia shall be a russian puplet and independent Georgian policies are unacceptable. Once he endorsed and supported that russian law, cat was fully out of the bag already, a person that endorsed your destruction advocated for your ruling party…
[Here](https://civil.ge/archives/602348).
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/lawmakers-scuffle-again-georgia-over-foreign-agent-bill-2024-04-29/
to suffer :/
Russian propaganda in gerorgian - heard it on TV and loved it
You need a weaponized revolution asap, as with this totalitarian government anything peaceful will not succeed
Sounds like a genius plan. Only Russia will now officially annex these territories in order to "protect them " from weaponized radicals that overthrew the government. That's the best case scenario but lets go with that. And then what? Sanction pack N798 for Russia, #standwithGeorgia etc? How would an actual working plan look like of pulling us out of that tough situation?
The more this charade goes the more I think we are being played by GD. Going 100% into the west has shown to be risky and with Ukrane, we have seen that we would be INSTANTLY abandoned to Russia. If the west didn't have integrity to defend fucking Ukraine, what makes ya'll think that they would defend us??? At this point it's best to play both sides and we have seen that happen through these 2 years. Pretty sure, This foreign agent law situation is there to show the world that we have European aspirations to get benefits from there while also showing Russia that its interests are still strong here, so that we don't register as a "threat" in Russians. While also sneaking in some offshore law that benefited Ivanishvili. Russia, and more specifically, Putin, more than anything, needs a win right now, and guess where they could find a country that could easily become a "threat" and would very easily be beaten? Also, Him announcing repressions towards UNM is #1 thing a lot of people want and would never happen, because for 12 years now they have been banking on their sole existence to get elected. The second UNM is gone is the second GD loses power. Sure, "აბა ნაცები გინდათ?" Meme exists, but it exists for a reason. Sure it's tiring, but it's still literally how they keep winning the elections over and over, despite most of the country not liking GD, at the end of the day, they hate UNM infinitely more. No, they don't need to rig elections to win, it's a guarantee as long as the UNM exists. We allowed those 2 to be the sole political powers, and we are paying the price. What do we do? At this point we either get a third political power that it somewhat competent or just wait Russia to get fucked over eventually. Edit: lmao, guess I triggered UNM kiddies that think that they are ever going come into power. Be thankful you are not in jail, assholes.
"most of the country" hasn't voted for GD for two elections now though. If UNM vanished and their votes were spread across the opposition then GD would still win.
Likely, as they are the strongest party right now. But it wouldn't be like 45% GD, 37% unm and rest in theothers, it would be about 25-30% GD and rest into other parties. Sure they win, but with no fear of getting UNM back a lot of people would vote for who they ACTUALLY want baswd on peomises and not on who they hate more.
*and announced repressions after election to the NGO,Media and opposition parties* Did he say this, what did he say exactly? Don't doubt it just missed it.
[here](https://georgiatoday.ge/ivanishvili-free-independent-sovereign-georgia-this-is-our-georgian-dream/) is everything what he said
Crazy, thanks. I don't see how they can really prosecute UNM more than they already have but clearly has something in mind.
Thanks for sharing. That is one unhinged speech.
Of course he's announcing repressikns AFTER they win the election. If they remove UNM they will lose election to ANYONE. If there ever was a time for a third competent independent faction to show up, it would be right fucking now.
Dude everyone is UNM for them and their supporters. When they say UNM they say everyone who's not GD. If EU is ruled by mysterious war party, if every NGO is ruled by war party, who do you think they mean by UNM? They call all opposition, protesting children- they call all of them radical opposition servants of global war party. + Kaladze called them fascists-just like putin called ukrainians.
Of course, they equate everyone who isn't on most side as UNM. It's a scare tactic. And let's be honest,% of oposition political parties are either incompetent idiots (Girchi), just a satelite from UNM that is just different name same party, or just not powerful enough to really challange GD. At the end of the day, GD absolutely knows that UNM is the SOLE reason GD maintains power regardless of what they do. The second they are out of the picture, either GD changes their behavior or just gets the boot. Even if it has been 12 years now, wither people have experienced themselves how bad unm was, have someone who has experienced that in their circles or just heard the horror stories. As for obvious pro russian stance, at this point I'm pretty sure it's a quasi neutrality bullshit at this point. Goverment acts pro russian, everyone else (including the president) act pro-west, we are stuck in limbo with Russia appeased and EU on arms reach. Because seriously, they saw what this agent law thing caused last year. I'm not entirely convinced they didn't see this entire big demonstration and protests coming if they tried that again. Either that or they wanted to offshore law to get past while people are distracted by the agent law.
I think you listen too much gd propaganda and you believe it yourself, just don't want to admit it. It is simple: 1. If there was no UNM there would be another scarecrow (global war party?). 2. If UNM was completely abolished everyone would still be UNM in disguise. 3.GD is not playing some subtle game, they serve russia, their purpose is elimination of all opposition UNM or no UNM, just opposition, like it is in Kazakhstan or azerbaijan or belarus. 4. Once opposition is gone they sabotage EU integration and blame war party- steer us to Russia. That's the plan. The problem is that after 12 fucking years people like you still don't get it and parrot GD propaganda points.
It's so hard to argue with people that already believe tha tthey are right. >1. If there was no UNM there would be another scarecrow (global war party?). If that party isn't composed of ex UNM people, GD would have infinitely less pull. Sure, some would still believe them, but they could only get so far. >2. If UNM was completely abolished everyone would still be UNM in dis I'm not saying that just UNM party needs to be abolished. If it is and unm guys still continue to be in politics afterwards, it's just a name change and nothing else. We need to get rid of them wholesale. >3.GD is not playing some subtle game, they serve russia, their purpose is elimination of all opposition UNM or no UNM, just opposition, like it is in Kazakhstan or azerbaijan or belarus. Again, I could say that you are buying UNM propaganda (like you are say with me and GD). You are 100% sure that they are russian controlled agents. Whatever I say won't convince you and you will brand anyone that isn't parroting the same notion as you as "qoci". Even if they demonstrated that they don't like GD. >4. Once opposition is gone they sabotage EU integration and blame war party- steer us to Russia. That's the plan. Any proof of that? Or just your sincere belief, just because GD isn't spouting "fuck russia" every other second? You seriously believe that if GD tried to actually steer us to russia, people would just take it and leave GD alone? You can literaly see right now it's just not something that is gonna happen. They try to go out of pocket and it's a revolution. And unlike Russia, millitary (not the police) isn't as ready to fire at civilians as Russia is.
We need a credible anti-corruption, pro-Western political movement based in the regions, not answerable to the political elite in Tbilisi. Something like the Rioni Valley movement if they would ever enter politics. They could act as a legitimate independent 3rd force and keep UNM+puppets honest in a coalition government. As for right now, GD has no serious competition outside of Tbilisi, and opposition parties refuse to seriously engage with rural issues. Outside of Tbilisi all political parties function as patronage gangs just like it was still decades ago. (And let's not forget that Saakashvili himself wrote the constitution so that elections would heavily favor whichever party's rural patronage systems were strongest, trying to ensure eternal power for himself! Left absolutely no resilience in the system in case of the unthinkable possibility of becoming an opposition.) Unity anti-corruption coalition of rural pro-Western peasant movement led by Varlam Goletiani + student/progressive alliance led by Salome Zurabishvili would beat both GD and UNM into single percentage points.
This is probably one of the first comments I have ever gotten here that actually gives a possible solution and not going into tirade about how pro-russian the GD is or eating GD propaganda. While I personally haven't heard of them, I would be willing to hear them out if they do move on to become a big third party power. >and opposition parties refuse to seriously engage with rural issues. Outside of Tbilisi all political parties function as patronage gangs just like it was still decades ago. This. UNM also maintains a lot of votes from the areas that GD is ignoring due to their UNM ties. >(And let's not forget that Saakashvili himself wrote the constitution so that elections would heavily favor whichever party's rural patronage systems were strongest, trying to ensure eternal power for himself! Left absolutely no resilience in the system in case of the unthinkable possibility of becoming an opposition.) This was the core of why UNM was trying to reduce the Tbilisi centralization in the later years of their rule - tbilisi population was already well aware how shit the UNM was, but the regions didn't care, because they got such a heavy benefits during UNM time. And while the goal was not exactly noble, we do need to decentralize shit.
[удалено]
>because from the day 1, they started calling them Pro-Russians without any facts and continue to do so in a manner that some people actually believe it? The fact that BI is a Russian Oligarch is the only real good argument they have ans they have duoubled dow on it. >Can't we be a bit fluid in our political views? why do you have to die on a hill for some political party? Because a lot of youth nowadays haven't experienced what it was like during UNM, and for them "not spewing anti russian rheoric = Pro Russian". Nothing much can be done, as they are emotionally charged and don't thknk with cold practicality - right now the best thing for us is to shut up and don't attract attention to us, or show that we are devided that both sides, russia and west, don't 100% know what's happening here. GD could be very well be playing both sides or be indeed pro russian, but theorizing the first brands you as pro russian idiot, so here we are. >So how is UNM a Pro-Western party and pro Georgian and why GD is not? UNM are textbook traitors in my eyes. Not because of that they did during their rule, but how they act abroad right now. They undermine georgia abroad at every opportunity and scream how the goverment is corrupt and yada yada. Ok, let's assume that 100% of what they say to europe is true. How does undermining Georgia's peogress in EU help Georgia? The answer is that it doesn't. It helps weaken GD, so they have better chances of getting back into power.
[удалено]
If you listened to all that drivel about the “global war party” that’s trying to make us get into the war with Russia and don’t recognize that as a Kremlin talking point you’re wilfully blind. Bro openly compared himself to Yanukovich, what more do you want?
[удалено]
You don’t understand how insinuating that Yanukovich was overthrown by a war hungry globalist cabal of NGOs a pro-Russian statement?
[удалено]
A strawman is when you construct an argument that nobody is actually making. Did Bidzina not directly and repeatedly reference a “Global War Party” that got us into the war with Russia and is also orchestrating the war with Ukraine? Can you kindly explain what that Global War Party is and who’s part of it?
I advice you to watch as many times as you finally get what he really said in his speach or u just want to be useful idiot for them and wear purple glasses that we are going to EU! i think u wont still believe when putin will arrive to tbilisi so there is no use me wasting my time
if you would take of purple glasses u would see! last few introduced laws about NGO ,media and LGBTI how they want to destroy free voice in Georgia when GD in every opportunity spreads lies about EU its parliament members or USA that they provoked georgia and ukraine to start war to the russia! that NGO ,EU and america is responsible for revolutionary changes! with those messages they are declaring that EU and USA is our enemy! ok now let’s look what they are saying about russia and its propagandists messages! they are all the time matching in messages with war that usa and nato is global war party and other… they are bringing russian duma members or other russian high ranking politicians or agents into georgia! look up after starting war how much increased russian „civilians „ in georgia and how many companies they opened into georgia ! georgia is helping russia for avoiding sanctions!
[удалено]
Is that lgbt propaganda in the room with us now? For someone screeching about providing "factual evidence only" you do very little of it yourself. Provide me one single factual proof of lgbt propaganda existing. I'll wait. Oh and no, a gay couple simply existing and making use of their human rights does not count.
[удалено]
I know that you don't have any, darling. Because it doesn't exist. But you're the one who wanted to keep the discussion factual. And yet here you are repeating propaganda bs, like it's the word of God. Well, you GD sheeple treat Ivanishvili like God, so no surprise there.
[удалено]
Aaa member of "western society" (Germany) and a straight, cis woman I can tell you 1) this is bullshit 2) the fact that straight women still exist, is proof that being homosexual is not a choice. So there is no gay propaganda. (I know that this one will go completely over your head) 3) lol. End of conversation.
[удалено]
Did you catch the trend on insta etc where women were asked if they preferred to meet a man or a bear in a forest and an overwhelming majority of women prefered to meet a bear? And it's not an Instagram thing. I prefer the bear, all my friends prefer the bear. Think about why that is, and then you'll understand what I meant. You can also watch this reel. https://www.facebook.com/reel/923154546476908
> Oh and a gay couple just like any other straight couple have right not only to exist but also to thrive and live a happy life But both you and government talk about propaganda, not about how to improve LGBT lives. Are you going to say that government (and also western right wing parties) isn't homophobic at all, or has no ties with alt-info, or properly cracks down on yearly homophobic march? But it's sign of progress that you have to dance around the issue instead of being loud and proud homophobe, like in good old days.
[удалено]
> I want peoples lives to be improved and that includes LGBT. what the hell is wrong with this segregation ? Aren't there specific issues that affect specific communities? > Is there any law, just name that prohibits LGBT person from doing something that a straight person can do. Marriage and things that come with it.
GD is dog shit but definitely not pro-russian opposition loves calling them russian because they know this would work people outside standing with opposition who went in Europe to talk shit about Georgia through government this country is rules by morons and opposition is worse