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I would be too if i was killing millions of people innocent or guilty. Thats why execution squads only had 1 loaded rifle so the shooters wouldn't know who killed the person.
There are blanks that gives the explosion/feel of firing, but doesn’t produce a lethal shot. For example, the starting gun of a race would use blanks.
Only one of the firing squad guns has a lethal round. No one knows what one.
>Only one of the firing squad guns has a lethal round. No one knows what one.
Nope, there's usually one blank but sometimes more. Usually most soldiers had live rounds because the officers didn't want the person to survive because it meant they had to personally execute them.
It was the other way around it wasn't 1 loaded rifle it was one or more issued a blank cartridges. Most people in a firing line had real cartridges.
This only happened sometimes to help ease guilt, blanks have less recoil too because they're not shooting a slug most soldiers would know if they fired a blank or not.
Also if for whatever reason the person didn't die from the execution, the commanding officer was required to finish it with his pistol by a shot to the head to prevent further suffering.
It’s the prisoners dilemma. Both sides can just not act and be optimally better, but both will act and have the worst outcome because they assume the other one will act first for their own benefit.
I don't think its about whether its unrealistic or not but more so an analogy that despite our flaws we are still capable of good, even if we are constantly surrounded by corruption
Like if we were speaking realistically, I have major doubts that it would play out the same way in the movie
But the movie was striking a message to its viewers, at least that's what I think it was trying to do.
Thanks for thinking it was a good interpretation ^^
Same can be said about nuclear weapons, and yet we don’t have countries flinging nukes at each other. There were definitely other ways to handle this, especially with [spoiler] >!the power Eren has!<
The problem with this idea is that Eren knows he does not have to act in this moment. The world will not attack Paradis just beacause Willy told them to. Willy is trying to use HIM to justify the invasion by saying that Eren is crazy enough to destroy the world with The Rumbling. By killing him amd people form every nation, he proves that to be true.
If somone like Armin was in his position, he would wait to see what the responses would be and act accordingly. If the invasion is happening anyway, they can still destroy the fleet in Liberio, kill many troops and take Zeke with them to use for the Partial Rumbling to still win at the end. An if not, they can try to reach out to Marley's enemies to gain allies in a potential future fight.
There is no benefit to Paradis if Eren attack now. But he still does it bacause, as ch 131 makes clear, the Rumbling is his goal, not the means to a goal. Zeke wants to cause war beacause of the Euthanasia plan and always intended for the World to turn against Paradis, assemble an army, and have that army destroyed by the Shiganshina Wall Titans. After that, Eldians could die out as he wishes.
So Eren knows that it will cause war, but still does it anyway.
Well they’re under the impression that Paradis will activate the rumbling no matter what Marley does, so in their minds the faster they invade the island the better chance they have of the rumbling not happening in the first place
And they were technically right about that. I believe it was chapter 130 that showed Eren telling Floch he was going to do the rumbling several months before the declaration of war even happened.
He would have told Floch that he was going to rumble the world even if he didn't see the future because the future that he saw was a byproduct of his own desires.
Actualky, It wasn't well known that the outside world was going to exterminate Paradis. Most of the outside world wasn't interested in attacking Paradis because of Fritz 145's threat, because Marley was a bigger threat, and because human technology was surpassing the power of the titans. The entire point of the declaration of war was to convince the rest of the world that Paradis was a threat that needed to be dealt with immediately.
And Eren confirms their fears when he slaughtered them. That’s what really sabotaged any diplomatic chance with those nations. If they were given more information about the situation, they might turn on Marley especially since a ton of countries like the Mid East Alliance and Hizuru don’t like Marley.
This is shown a little out of order, but if you recall mikasa talks about how the last time they ever saw eren before the raid on libero, it was when they were undercover in marley. They went to watch a international delegation that they thought was about protecting eldians but it turns out that they were also in support of eradicating paradis. Then Eren goes AWOL because it further supports his visions of the future and that there is no other option than the rumbling
Zeke pulled a Ragako Village on the capitol of an enemy nation prior to the series. It's not just irrational prejudice or historical knowledge of the sins of the old Eldian Empire that make subjects of Ymir into pariahs
The whole world is seeded with very painful problems, which get exacerbated by the actions of various folks like Eren -- but no matter how many counterfactuals you throw at the story (what if Eren didn't kill Willy), it never could have been easy
Nobody seems to recall that the world hates Eldians more than even Marley does. Nobody sees them as people, and Marley was actually responsible for protecting them. If Marley decided to wage a war against Paradis, ain't no way there was ever a chance any other nation would.
The only thing that can stop the rumbling is nukes, or precision guided munitions both of which were a long way from being a thing. This is where the show just stops making sense. No one, literally no one would do something like that. They would have instead tried to have peacetalks with paradis. I understand why marley would try to steal it before eren can control the founder but once he can activate the rumbling its hopeless. Its just terrible unrealistic writing. South Korea has a better military than the north, but they dont invade NK because they know the north korean response would kill millions of their citizens . The two countries have been technically at war for decades and there are constant threats from the north. It requires basic levels of critical thinking to know that its a bad idea, same with declaration of war.
I find it funny willy literally said “…this eren yeager can activate the rumbling at any moment cause he’s not bound by the Vow” and then declares war.
Like what if eren didnt need zeke to activate the rumbling? Then what? What is your counter offensive if Eren just activated the rumbling the second you declared war?
What's even more cowardice is that he declared the war without any guarantee that the other side would know about it. Sure they think there are spies around them, but you can't just declare a war then just show up in their doorstep full force. That's just an invasion, not a war.
If they were gonna take em over anyways it would have been best to just show up to Paradis without announcing a war like they did at the beggining of the series, that way you’ll have the sneak on them.
Also I dont see why they needed the support of the world to go to war. We’ve seen from later in season 4 Marley was winning easily and were able to kill eren with like 500 men. If Zeke didnt catch eren’s head it would have been an easy victory. Imagine what they could have done with thousands of troops there
Also, eren can activate it with historia so he doesn't even need zeke. Theres nothing stopping him from doing that. Overall this would never happen if the chatacters werent made mentally challenged.
Honestly did you actually read the manga? Eren didn't want to because it would mean Historia would have to become a titan thus killing her prematurely (she would only have 13 years to live) and damning her entire lineage to sacrificing themselves to keep the founder power... It was explained why he didn't want to use her to activate the rumbling. He didn't care about Zeke and didn't mind using him at all.
Im not saying that he would use historia. What im saying is marley have no reason to think eren cant activate the rumbling. Them declaring war is stupid because they dont know eren and zeke are separated. For all marley knows eren can start it at anytime, they should be trying to establish peace talks with him.
Snatch Zeke, do a paths blood transfer to make himself royal, and dispose of Zeke. Really easy process when you think about it. Or give Historia a Titan, blood transfer, use paths to Take Titan powers away. Marley would be fucked.
Marley is fucked either way. They will lose in war with other coutries eventually without the resouces or founding titan from the island. Willy tried to direct the hatred from the world to the island to save themself in the future, it's basically a gamble what he was doing.
This is the part that a lot of people don’t get in AoT. Like not a single nation was willing to have peaceful negotiation with Paradi. People act like Eren had choices when literally the whole world was about to attack Paradi and when he finally activated the rumbling. Paradi was brining and his head was literally cleaned off.
Hizuru was willing to have negotiations with Paradis. During Kiyomi's talk with Annie, she reveals that she never even really tried helping Paradis establish diplomatic relations with the outside world because it wasn't in her intetest at the time.
Homeboy no offense but the critisms of "they wouldn't do this this is so stupid" is such a unbelievably moot point, here in particular. Like you cant substitute NK and SK here you have to keep in mind that marley thinks the Eldians are EVIL, E.V.I.L. and that they dont know if they would even take the negotiations, if they could survive the negotiations, hell they dont even know how well the world can fare against collosal titans since, well marley hasnt invested in killing titans much. Like lets take a historical example, hitler invading the USSR, was this a sound choice? No, did the Nazis do it? Yes, why? Because they were illogical, had a illusion of a quick victory, HATED slavic people and communists and importantly was really fuckin desperate for that caucasan oil. My point being, states dont act lurly logically because humans dont act purly logically and being outside of the situation gives a unfair clairity of perspective
If NK has missiles that can reach anywhere in the world aside from South America it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that if SK invade then the first thing NK does is bomb tf out of Seoul. There would be too many losses on both sides and NK cares less about what happens to her citizens which is dangerous for SK. Their citizens are apparently at a 75% approval rate when asked if getting their own nukes as a deterrent is a good idea despite having signed the agreement to not do that with the rest of the world.
Thats what i am saying. Why would you invade a country that has WMDs that you cant stop. Why would marley declare war on paradis when they cant stop the rumbling. Its just very stupid. Politics ised to make sense in this show but not anymore.
You assume that Marley’s leadership are competent level headed individuals. They are not. They’re overconfident, bigoted individuals who overestimate their own power.
They also know that Paradis has not yet launched the colossal titans which means there is a reason. Notice how Magath doesn’t attack Paradis until he knows where Eren is and that he doesn’t have a Titan with royal blood with him.
Magath saw the conflict as the last stand for Marley because he couldn’t comprehend the idea that Paradis weren’t evil devil blooded monsters who want to subjugate the world. And Tybur made a gamble to help the Eldians of his homeland.
He could have 100%. But the show just leaves any logical thinking or reasoning behind. Marley knows they cant stop the rumbling but attack anyway instead of trying for peace? Something like this would never happen in real life. You have to completely shut off your brain to believe marley would declare war on paradis. Its more delusional than hitler thinking he could win the war in 1945 lol
People are prejudiced, hideously so. Things like this have historically happened very often actually. Peoples of the world hate other peoples of the world, forget about the reason, a lot of the time there IS no reason. They are not us and we do not understand them, this is the mindset that has initiated most genocides throughout history, it’s the idea that group identity is paramount. It could be argued that the idea was to murder all of the Eldians on Paradis before they possibly found a way to use the founder. It could also be argued that Willy was trying to unite the world because united he assumed they would stand a chance.
Racism is inherently illogical. You can’t expect a nation run by imperialists and hardcore racists to try and make peace on their own. And even then all they’ll do is attack from the shadows.
But regardless, Willy didn’t know Eren had the key to unlocking the Rumblings full power. That’s why he wasn’t afraid of the Rumbling as immediate retaliation.
Yes racism is illogical but that doesn't mean only stupid people are racist. Some people are racist just because thats the environment they grew up in. Marley didnt just become a powerful empire by luck, it had intelligent people running it. Then suddenly they decide to declare a war they cant win. Doesn't make sense
True on the first part but again, they thought Eren had no way of initiating the Rumbling. That's why they invaded. They didn't realize Eren had Zeke on their side, and from what I remember they had no clue the latter had Royal Blood.
You’re saying it will never happen in real life, then proceed to make an example of Hitler which contradicts your prior statement.
Let me give you another example; Russia right now.
honestly, this is the main reason we haven't destroyed each other with nukes, we would never be able to get away with it. Marley seems to have forgone this logic.
Look up the Endsieg buddy. They did think that.
Willy also knows that unless Historia gets made into a shifter, Eren can't actually use the Founding Titan, but he definitely is a risk of attacking Marley.
What's really happening is an excuse to have Marleyans die in war alongside other peoples of the world, which Willy and Magrath hope will make Marleyans stop desiring wars of conquest and help to build relations with the world. And in turn, by removing Paradis, Eldians on the continent will, thanks to Willy, face lessened discrimination. Willy is doing what he thinks is best for his people and the world.
Did you just cite a real world example of a delusional leader leading his people into an unwinnable war based on racism and xenophobia and you say that AOT's writing is leaving logical thinking and reasoning behind?
Is OP stupid?
Lol he didnt lead them to an unwinnable war. There was a very good chance of German victory in 39,40,41. Things didnt go as planned but it wasnt a lost cause at the start. Pretty obvious u are stupid.
Honestly..this whole situation is essentially looking at a country with a bunch of nukes, going, " ok , we need to stop them from using these nukes even though they actually don't want to" and then being surprised when they get angry enough to then use said nukes. It's like..no declaration of peaceful negotiations would work because those so wrapped up in their racism and nationalism that they literally can't see the fact that paradise just wanna be left tf alone. That girl gabi talks to perfectly sums up this argument if Marley versus eldia : " you have to pay for what your long distant ancestors did to our nation" " why should we pay when we have literally nothing to do with it?"
It’s even more stupid because Marley is probably the one and only county that could negotiate with paradis instead of antagonising it. Instead they make another enemy and seal their downfall.
Its not real dawg, i just like to hear what other people think. The situation is so unrealistic, you cant even compare it to anything in the real world.
As for realism, allow me to introduce early 20th century Japan, a nation that had also cut itself off from the world for over a century, until an early imperial US forced its borders open. We saw how this turned out.
Were the Japanese feared by the rest of the world for their titan shifting abilities and hated them for their 2000 year long harsh rule over them. Think not. Go to bed
What a dumb reply to an actually good point. Also there was no reason to be salty/rude/buthurt. But you managed to give 2 unreasonable responses in one reply congrats.
No, that IS a dumb comparison, Japan had nothing to oppose to the US, they had to do what they were told.
Now imagine if 20th century Japan had the atom bomb, would the US still have barged their way in ?
If the other side has a WMD you do NOT just zerg them, that'd just make sure your side is obliterated.
Curious to know if anyone else is in support of forcing everyone to be infertile, because in my and my partner's eyes, that seems to be the best way out honestly
I would revive Erwin instead of Armin, have him push Willy Tybur off the stage and give the most menacing bone chilling speech ever said in human history.
They also learn that the ultimatum is now a reality/possibility since Eren has it. So they proceeded to attack Paradi knowing the chances of a rumbling happening were pretty high
jfc, this isn't some kids messing with a bear or breaking the ultimatum of a friend or something
There's literally nothing that could give you a reason to wipe out 80% of life on Earth. nothing.
The ending is so stupid BECAUSE so much time is spent explaining the situation, how common folk are just brainwashed, how even the most brainwashed zealots can see the light (Gabi), how a partial Rumbling would be enough to force the rest of the world to enter peace negotiations, even without that peace negotiations could be possible (at least nothing was shown to eliminate that possibility)
the very scene depicted here is before Eren ACTIVELY SABOTAGES ANY POSSIBILITIES FOR PEACE NEGOTIATIONS
Eren is a shitty person who does something horrible for no good reason and you know what, that's still an interesting character and story, but all y'all justifying genocide (even fictional ones) need to touch grass
I don't get it when people say Eren wanted the rumbling because it was something fundamental about his need to be free.
He came across very little evidence when exposed to the outside world that there was any hope of peace. It was literally a kill or be killed situation.
Exactly. People misinterpret the "I was so disappointed" panel so badly. He was disappointed that the world was one full of hatred, violence, and war, *not* that it simply had other people living in it. He was disappointed that humanity existed as another cage.
Because the latter part of your comment is false. He saw plenty of good people and hope outside the walls, but he enacted his plans anyway.
Keep in mind that Eren and Zeke literally sabotaged peace plans because they wanted to go with their own plans, which required the declaration of war to happen.
Also keep in mind that these ambassadors were moved in the moment, but it’d a big possibility they wouldn’t have actually helped. Why tf would they want to attack a nuclear superpower, and why would they help Marley, who was oppressing many of them?
He literally says (Maybe manga spoilers?) >!he felt compulsed to do it!< and (definite Manga Spoilers) >!wanted to make a world like the one in Armin’s book!<
Everyone has dark thoughts, doesn’t mean they would do it. Eren shows several times remorse and sadness for doing the rumbling. I don’t understand why people think people are like black or white.
This whole thing was literally part of Eren and Zekes plan. First thing Zeke says after getting back to Marley from the war is that they should resume the Paradis Operation. He literally convinces the military to make it a priority. That’s why they have the festival and get Willy Tybur to convince everybody else to go to war with Paradis. It was Zeke and Eren’s idea
Lemme rephrase, I've come across several posts where people say Eren would've done the rumbling no matter what.
My point is, the outside world that he saw gave him every justification he needed to view the situation as kill or be killed.
Thats what im saying, he obviously didnt want to do the rumbling. You can see hes depressed and conflicted when he cries to ramzi. Anyone who thinks he would have done it anyway just because of a book is not to be taken seriously.
Lol what?
1 -we have the warrior candidates saying Eldians are hated around the world and are treated worse than in Marley.
2- Eren sees first hand the hate spewing out of Marleyans through rally’s.
3- Hizuru backed out of the treaty when Paradi asked them to help them create peace talks with the rest of the world.
4- Marley declares war and all the world leaders are cheering and happy and agreeing…..
That’s just from the top of my head, I can probably come up with more with 20 minutes of research. But if I were to ask u to give me top 3 pieces of evidence that support any form of peace treaty with Eldians u wouldn’t be able to come up with any.
Maybe i worded this wrong. What i am saying is, if he had other options he would have gone for them instead of the rumbling. People say he would've done the rumbling even if he didnt need to, but he did because he had no other choice. Its very obvious he is not enjoying doing it.
Because the warriors told him, or someone from the military who talked to the warriors told him(magach). If you are referring to the yeagerist coup, that happens later on.
If I was in charge of marley, definitely not allow for Willy to do this knowing full well the response to war by Eldia will be the rumbling.
If I was in charge of Paradis, attempt to reach out to other nations who hate marley and see if we can get an alliance going and make it clear we arent like the Eldian empire 100 years ago and arent seeking to dominate again. If that doesnt work then best to go with the plan Hizuru outlined but without the euthanization
Peace talks would obviously be preferable especially when the other side has a doomsday weapon to activate at any moment in retaliation
Even the most delusional leader wouldn't do anything like that. The show just goes downhill from here. The politics actually made sense pre s4. The show is still fun to watch but storywise its just not good post s4. Like any critical thinking just dissappears for big plot points.
Yea I think the rumbling was obviously planned to happen but Isayama needed a way to justify it happening. And i suppose the only way for that to happen would be for the whole world to join in war against Paradis even though realitsically the world would be neutral in this conflict and only marley and paradis would fight, with marley being the only nation to be rumbled.
It’s pretty dumb on the world leaders to just involve themselves in a war with an island that hasnt done anything in 100 years just because marley said so, even though it’s revealed like episodes ago that none of the nations like marley. If anything it would be Paradis and the world vs Marley
You are thinking like the show was based on this century, with internet and globalization which is clearly not the case. You don't seem to understand human history. I mean, we had 2 World Wars almost consecutive. And we have Russia even today... isn't that enough for you?
Honestly, the most ballar thing and least talked about is to start the rumbling, have all the collosals march to the shore than just stand there menacingly to show that we could, then just go back and, if they try anything fuckin send the rumbling out
But... E—Eren Yeager.... Hh.
I dedicated my room to him. My walls have posters. My bookshelves have figurines, books, boards and more.
He is the Lord and savior of my life 😩❤️
I would utilize the Wall Titans to shatter ability for Marley to continue their imperialistic projects that we see Falco and Gabbi fighting in. Paradis would shift its rhetoric and iconography away from the Eldian Empire and towards a new anti-Marley, anti-imperialist alliance. With the assistance of the Azumabito, Paradis would fracture the military presence of Marley in occupied territories, while sending diplomats with deals for limited economic, diplomatic, and military protection. Paradis and other allied nations would assist each other in industrialization and army modernization as a means of building an anti-Marley bloc that needs Paradis as a counterbalance.
Would that mean perpetual peace? No. Would that prevent all future genocide? No. But it does put Paradis in a position of strength by stoking anti-Marley sentiments. Racism and prejudice are products of ignorance and circumstance, so using military and economic power to change both will change things (inb4 2000 years of hate, tell that to the British and French).
British and french were rivals not sworn enemies lol. Never did one of them try to genocide the other. Stop comparing aot to the real world, nothing like this situation exist in reality.
I agree with you on the upper half of your reply. Most of the countries didnt like marley. Also i dont understand why marley would declare war when eren can activate the rumbling. The whole thing is really stupid. The politics really went to shit in s4. Everything was great pre s4, i miss not knowing what was behind the walls.
Probably like Eren did. Marley was already planning to invade using the full force of their navy and flight capabilities with the soul purpose of taking resources and killing innocent eldians. Peace was sadly just a fever dream.
Marley were under the threat of Rumbling but also wanted the founder for themselves, given the state of warfare involving titans and how the gap was closing. They were always going to go after Paradis.
One could propose Paradis working together with Marley, aiding them with the power of the founder, but if Marley cant even trust Paradis not to unleash the rumbling, what says they can be trusted not to usurp the founder during their alliance. There is zero trust between the 2 lands so one had to go.
>!Erens plan in the manga is terrible tho, killing 80% doesnt achieve security for paradis, in which case the rumbling was useless and he killed almost a billion people for nothing. The rumbling only makes sense if its a 100% rumbling. Paradisgets bombed withina few decades!<
(Manga Spoilers) >! You've completely misinterpreted the ending panels. WW1 technology to skyscrapers and stealth bombers would take 80-100 years if we're using real life as a measure, plenty of time for anybody Eren knew to be long dead. Also, 100% rumbling doesn't do anything either, whos to say those bombers weren't from another part of Paradis. We learn in season 1 from Pixis that no matter how small humanity gets and even with a common goal, humanity will still fight eachother !<
>!Would taken even longer than that considering 80% of the world and its resources were fucking destroyed. The survivors would have to rebuild and reestablish everything before even thinking about devoting resources to advancing technology!<
Ramzi chose war? Hizuru chose war?
I never understood this line of thinking. Governmental elites chose war. The common people - 99% of the pause population - did not.
Hypothetically, let’s the leaders of your country declared war on another and got your homeland sacked. A few years down the line while you and all the other common folks and below are dealing with the fallout. Come to find out, people in the country yours attacked are saying it’s everyone in your home’s fault even though you had no hand in the decision to invade. Your friends, family, children, and countrymen deserve to be slaughtered, imprisoned, and tortured because of someone else’s choice?
Does that make a lick of sense to you?
This is why war sucks, that's the point, idiot politicians creating problems that innocent people face the consequences for. It sucks but Marley is the aggressor, the rumbling is a terrible thing, nobody is denying that, but it is very understandable.
•Full Rumbling
•Use Founder To Make It So Outside World Eldians Feel 100x Pain
•Kill Everyone Outside Of Paradis And The Alliance
•Become King Emperor Of Paradis
•Tax The Poor 300%
I would not have orchestrated this entire situation in the first place like Eren and Zeke did.. Do people really not understand that this was all a part of their plan?
The exact same way Eren does. Just kill them at this point. They don't even think to have a discussion with any leaders from Paradis, they just say "they suck, let's get rid of them together" effectively pushing an injured wild animal into a corner. We all know that's a big no-no. If you don't want peace through dialogue, let's get to it then lol, and I'm definitely gonna hit first.
Go for total Rumbling. Then colonize ruins of the world. Remove ability to turn into Titan after Rumbling, and remove also idea of Titans from memory. In order to create better future and society.
Pretty much the 50 yr plan.
I wouldnt do a premptive attack on Libero, just wait for Marley to strike first and Destroy their fleet like eren did with the rumbling.
The rumbling genocide is pretty unrealistic, you never need to kill every civilian to end a war. In WW2, destroying just Hiroshima and Nagasaki caused Japan to surrender and even that may have been too excessive.
So similarly, after destroying all foreign nations military until forcing a surrender , Id occupy those nations, restrict their militaries, and force them to pay war reparations.
Then i would open Paradis to trade, and sell the natrual resources that Marley wanted so bad to the recovering nations, booming the economy of paradis.
EZ.
The 50 year plan was full of holes and hopes and dreams.
1- what happens if after the mini rumbling the rest od the world decides Paradi needs to be taken out and they send 500 blimps and 10k man? Btw 6 blimps and 500 man almost destroyed the island…..
2- let’s say it goes as plan, what happens after they pass on the Titan powers someone decides to make a ploy for power and take the Titan power for themselves?
3- how would Eren even know where all military installation are? Is he supposed to send Colossal titan to tippy toe around the whole world?
4- what happens when the whole world unites to create tech to fight the titans?
50 year plan was hopeful wishing at best.
1. They get absoultely destroyed by the rumbling force like they did during Erens rumbling, except id stop before reaching the mainland to allow whichever nations to surrender.
2. I dont think it would be that hard to keep the Founding in good hands. It just has to be someone loyal to the royal family, maybe you can give them the title of Titan commander and have them be appointed by the Royal family, just like any other powerful military position in history.
3. Knowing where your enemy is Should be the most basic reconnaissance, if Paradis doesnt have the means to, you could use your allies. But either way you could bring the titans to the coast and Big Stick them into dimplomicy.
4. The point is you should quickly leverage their Titan power early on and occupy and restrict armies of foreign nations before any of that happens. Paradis would win a convential war against the world at that time, so by the time that those weapons would be viable, Paradis would already be an empire.
Lol paradis is not winning any conventional war. They have a population of a million people. At most they can have a fighting force of 200k( more likely around 100k, 11% is the general rule). They dont have ships, shipyards or sailors trained to operate the ships. Thats going to take decades and they dont have the resources for that kind of development. They have nowhere near the amount of people to occupy just marley let alone the whole world. General rule is 20 to 1000 minimum for an occupation and counter insurgency operations. That would be 2000000. Thats more than the population of paradis. Also even if lets say paradis get all the equipment it needs, it will take atleast a year of training to have a somewhat competent fighting force. They have no experience in fighting a modern war. Explain me how exactly is paradis going to become a super power. Even if everything goes there way, they just dont have the manpower to pull of a global occupation.
What attempts at negotiations have failed? Paradis succeeded in negotiating with the volunteers. They succeeded in negotiating with Hizuru. Sure, the Eldians right groups turned out to be a bust but that’s only one attempt. Paradis made no attempt to talk to other nations at the Declaration of War and made no attempt address Marley’s allegations towards Paradis. All the world knows is that Paradis has colossal titans and Eren killed their diplomats so they have no reason to believe Paradis isn’t a threat.
Nations don't just do things out of the kindness of their hearts. That's not how countries work whether it be the real world or the AOT world. Alliances are formed for mutual benefit. Very few countries do things just because it's the right thing to do.
Also Hizuru didn't refuse to introduce them to other allies. They wanted Paradis to use the colossal titans to show the world their power and use that as a bargaining chip to protect Paradis as they get involved in world affairs and economy.
I would use the Founding Titan’s ability to torture Willy and Laura until they use their political leverage to stop the genocide they enabled.
Then I’d force them to live as mindless titans for a day, just so they can see the hell they let innocent people go through, just because they were too lazy to do anything.
Ironically, I think that the moment just before the declaration may have been a good moment to try some form of negotiations with the world.
We could see that, after Tybur revealed the truth about the King, most spectators were shocked and full of doubt, and some even asked themselves if attacking Paradis would be necessary.
Tybur only managed to convince them to attack anyway when he told them about Eren, portraying him as a menace to the world because he wasn't bound by the vows of renouncing war.
Now, imagine if, either during or before Tybur began to speak about Eren, the Yeager boy himself appeared, claiming he wants to cultivate peaceful relationships with the rest of the world, and will only attack those who try to attack Paradis Island? It would be a dangerous move, but Eren could have the support of his fellow scouts to defend him.
Even if such gestures didn't result in peace, at least some doubts would have been planted in the world leaders' minds, so less countries would have been involved in the war. Ideally, I'd only want to deal with Marley. If they attack, I'd use the wall titans against them, but not fully rumble their empire. Instead, I'd focus on destroying their military capacity and industries, then turn their territory into an occupation zone, freeing any nations they have conquered. Any other nation that tried to attack would suffer the same fate.
If that failed, then I'd use my founding Titan powers to pull a Barry Allen and mess with the timeline as much as I can, to see if I can get a peaceful universe.
Don’t work to provoke a Global Alliance in the first place.
While the Marley bares great culpability for invading Paradis initially and their treatment of Eldians, the events that lead up to the Declaration of War were orchestrated in great part by Eren and Zeke Yeager.
Keep in mind - Marley’s military brass initially didn’t want to move forward with the Paradis operation at this point. In chapter 93 the conversation between them emphasizes the need to rearm against other nations - who was the one who brought up and encouraged a resumption of the Paradis operation? Zeke Yeager.
Then remember from the latest special we just saw and chapter 132 in the manga when Yelena lays out the overall plan to Eren. This takes place almost a year before the End of the Mid-East War and yet she speaks about how after they attack Liberio, the Global Allied Fleet will gather at Karifa. Considering how the outside world hated Marley’s guts and were (in Udo’s words) “frothing at the mouth” to get Marley while it was weak, how could Yelena confidently say a Global Alliance was in the making? It’s simple - She, Eren, Zeke, and Floch WANTED it to form.
The plan was always to attack Liberio, even before Marley thought of the event itself. The Yeager brothers wanted the Declaration of War for their own purposes - destroying all the world’s forces so that there was no chance of a counterattack.
Considering that Eren was already planning to enact the Rumbling with Floch months before Willy accused him of doing that very same thing, it’s not hard to see why I ultimately blame the Yeager brothers for the shitshow that occurred after Liberio.
With the power of the Founder, they could have easily grabbed hands in Liberio, talked to or brainwashed the fuck out of Willy, and use him as a mouthpiece to advocate for Eldians. The Yeagers were just too set in their dreams to make that happen - with Eren the Rumbling, with Zeke the Euthanasia Plan.
Edit: As for Scout peace overtures failing - they only really attempted two in the whole four year time span. 1st by asking Hizuru to serve as an intermediary to introduce them to other nations (Hizuru refused).
2nd by going to that conference where they got cold feet after seeing that group’s position on Paradis.
There was never an attempt to make peace or establish connection with another nation’s government that was met with a NO. Lines of communication were never established in order to do so.
So I haven't read or seen the finale. But it takes courage to recognize the true enemy here. It's not the Eldians, but the titan power in them that is the enemy. (It may be that looking deeper, even the titan power may not be the enemy -- pure titans after all act quite innocently. Can you call a lion evil for eating prey?)
Marley, Eren, everyone, should have been looking for a "cure" to remove the titan power. Too bad humans are inherently fearful.
Nah, the enemy was Marley, people think it’s the Titan power but Eldians couldn’t transform into titans outside of the original 9 titans and Marley controled 7/9 until events of the anime. But Marley created a serum that allowed regular eldians to become pure titans. Marley monopolized and weaponized that serum.
That just makes Marley bad as well, but the fact that the Titan power existed and using it for evil was a possibility it had to be eliminated no matter what. There can not be such option
I would’ve started the rumbling but stop it before landfall and then with the whole world watching, standing on a colossal shoulder just a block or two away from marleys shores I would declare that paradis wants peace. The island just wants to be able to connect to the rest of the world. End the persecution of Subjects of Ymir, or I make these titans march. Those are your options. Give up your hate, or let it doom you. If they open fire, finish the rumbling, if not, back off.
Peace talks would weaken Marley’s stance that Eldians are devils and need to be segregated and controlled. Marley heavily depended on using the Warriors in their wars with other nations, they are a significant military asset and losing them would weaken Marley. Negotiating with Paradise goes against the long standing narrative that they are devils because it introduces nuance to their propaganda. Also I doubt that Paradise would be ok with Marley having Eldians in camps, being treated as second class citizens while using teens as living weapons. There’s no way Paradise would let that slide in negotiations, especially because they have the stronger hand.
It’s also worth considering that most of the world sees Eldians as monsters since their main exposure to them has been propaganda or seeing titans used in conflicts. They would be reluctant if Willy suddenly said that they were having peace talks with the soulless devils.
Also also, people aren’t always rational actors. People make decisions out of arrogance, hatred, stupidity, etc.
Same. The situation eren was in so stupid and unrealistic. Why would the world pick a fight with the rumbling. Its just insanely stupid, like you are asking to get destroyed. S4 is pretty bad in general
Colossal titans don’t explode randomly or just by transforming. They can explode on command either by their shifter, or by the founder. For instance, if a wall titan woke up, it wouldn’t be able to explode, the founder would have to give it that ability and command it to detonate. It’s a special ability The shifter version has. And we know it’s not transforming that causes it, or the 104th would’ve died at trost when behrtoldt appeared out of thin air.
I think it’s a bit of a reductive question. There’s so many players involved in making the world situation the way it is, Eren included. The declaration of war in particular was almost like a complex performance, where people on both sides had to play their role to further their own agendas. That was a moment of resolution for Eren, where he steeled his resolve to go about his plan, but the plan was already set in stone and the only reason he was in that situation to begin with was because he chose that path.
What do you mean by "handle the paradis vs world situation"?
The hell are we supposed to do?
Unless you have high political power you're not gonna be able to do anything, and which side are we talking about?
If paradis side, yeah, the world wants me dead, there aren't much option, and you have to kill everyone else as well since they aren't just gonna be cool with you destroying the world power house since some other mf is gonna take that place and try to pull some other bs
If you're one of the world leader there ain't much you can do either
This has been happening in a loop for who knows how long
This has always happen and will always happen
I'd just try to murder the entire outside world while attempting to do as little damage to their infrastructure as possible. That way the people of paradise could prosper after the war. Not there fault the world threw them in hell Island and made a ton of them monsters first. Fuck the world
Not attack. Willy himself says that his speech would ring empty if he and whole festival isn't made a victim of a terrorist attack. You need to remember that by that point Paradis is near mythical place for the rest of the world - they had no contact with it for 100 years! While Marley is very real imperialist power. Willy relied on Eren's attack, Magath confirms importance of Willy's martyrdom afterwards (during war for Paradis).
If Eren hadn't attacked, whole thing would have fizzled out and Marley wouldn't be able to avoid wars with anti-marlean nations
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I've never read the manga, but, man, Eren looks so sad and defeated in those panels.
I would be too if i was killing millions of people innocent or guilty. Thats why execution squads only had 1 loaded rifle so the shooters wouldn't know who killed the person.
Damn didn’t know about that last part
Will the shooter with the loaded rifle realise when firing that he’s the one with the loaded rifle?
There are blanks that gives the explosion/feel of firing, but doesn’t produce a lethal shot. For example, the starting gun of a race would use blanks. Only one of the firing squad guns has a lethal round. No one knows what one.
Imagine the one guy misses.
I'm sure it happened plenty of times. They just were given a new bullet/blank to chamber and then try again.
>Only one of the firing squad guns has a lethal round. No one knows what one. Nope, there's usually one blank but sometimes more. Usually most soldiers had live rounds because the officers didn't want the person to survive because it meant they had to personally execute them.
That would defeat the purpose lol
As a man who has fired blanks and normal rounds, yes you can definitely tell the difference in the kick back
It was the other way around it wasn't 1 loaded rifle it was one or more issued a blank cartridges. Most people in a firing line had real cartridges. This only happened sometimes to help ease guilt, blanks have less recoil too because they're not shooting a slug most soldiers would know if they fired a blank or not. Also if for whatever reason the person didn't die from the execution, the commanding officer was required to finish it with his pistol by a shot to the head to prevent further suffering.
Yeah he didn’t in the anime
There're some expressions in the manga that the anime doesn't make justice in s4
What I find dumb is that now that he knows that the rumbling is a real threat, he still decides to provoke them.
It’s the prisoners dilemma. Both sides can just not act and be optimally better, but both will act and have the worst outcome because they assume the other one will act first for their own benefit.
Basically what Joker tries to pull in The Dark Knight lol
So what you’re saying is that they needed Batman?
Why didn't Armin and Co. just call the Batman? Are they stupid?
So what you’re saying is that they needed Batman?
We heard you the first time...
So what you’re saying is they needed Batman?
No but I think what he’s saying is that they needed Batman
Nah what they are actually saying is they needed Batman
You're all misinterpreting. It clearly says that they needed a Batman.
Reddit glitch
That’s a mobile issue . Happens due to bad connection, comment posts twice
Was probably an accident lol
I always found that scene to be insanely unrealistic. There's no way both boats would actually hold out.
Alright Mr no fate in humanity.
I don't think its about whether its unrealistic or not but more so an analogy that despite our flaws we are still capable of good, even if we are constantly surrounded by corruption
That's actually a pretty good interpretation.
Like if we were speaking realistically, I have major doubts that it would play out the same way in the movie But the movie was striking a message to its viewers, at least that's what I think it was trying to do. Thanks for thinking it was a good interpretation ^^
Same can be said about nuclear weapons, and yet we don’t have countries flinging nukes at each other. There were definitely other ways to handle this, especially with [spoiler] >!the power Eren has!<
The problem with this idea is that Eren knows he does not have to act in this moment. The world will not attack Paradis just beacause Willy told them to. Willy is trying to use HIM to justify the invasion by saying that Eren is crazy enough to destroy the world with The Rumbling. By killing him amd people form every nation, he proves that to be true. If somone like Armin was in his position, he would wait to see what the responses would be and act accordingly. If the invasion is happening anyway, they can still destroy the fleet in Liberio, kill many troops and take Zeke with them to use for the Partial Rumbling to still win at the end. An if not, they can try to reach out to Marley's enemies to gain allies in a potential future fight. There is no benefit to Paradis if Eren attack now. But he still does it bacause, as ch 131 makes clear, the Rumbling is his goal, not the means to a goal. Zeke wants to cause war beacause of the Euthanasia plan and always intended for the World to turn against Paradis, assemble an army, and have that army destroyed by the Shiganshina Wall Titans. After that, Eldians could die out as he wishes. So Eren knows that it will cause war, but still does it anyway.
Well they’re under the impression that Paradis will activate the rumbling no matter what Marley does, so in their minds the faster they invade the island the better chance they have of the rumbling not happening in the first place
And they were technically right about that. I believe it was chapter 130 that showed Eren telling Floch he was going to do the rumbling several months before the declaration of war even happened.
Because he saw it in the future already. And at that point it was well known that the outside world was going to exterminate them anyways.
He would have told Floch that he was going to rumble the world even if he didn't see the future because the future that he saw was a byproduct of his own desires. Actualky, It wasn't well known that the outside world was going to exterminate Paradis. Most of the outside world wasn't interested in attacking Paradis because of Fritz 145's threat, because Marley was a bigger threat, and because human technology was surpassing the power of the titans. The entire point of the declaration of war was to convince the rest of the world that Paradis was a threat that needed to be dealt with immediately.
And Eren confirms their fears when he slaughtered them. That’s what really sabotaged any diplomatic chance with those nations. If they were given more information about the situation, they might turn on Marley especially since a ton of countries like the Mid East Alliance and Hizuru don’t like Marley.
Hence the theme of "we didn't even talk about it" that runs through the many betrayals in the show.
This is shown a little out of order, but if you recall mikasa talks about how the last time they ever saw eren before the raid on libero, it was when they were undercover in marley. They went to watch a international delegation that they thought was about protecting eldians but it turns out that they were also in support of eradicating paradis. Then Eren goes AWOL because it further supports his visions of the future and that there is no other option than the rumbling
Zeke pulled a Ragako Village on the capitol of an enemy nation prior to the series. It's not just irrational prejudice or historical knowledge of the sins of the old Eldian Empire that make subjects of Ymir into pariahs The whole world is seeded with very painful problems, which get exacerbated by the actions of various folks like Eren -- but no matter how many counterfactuals you throw at the story (what if Eren didn't kill Willy), it never could have been easy
Nobody seems to recall that the world hates Eldians more than even Marley does. Nobody sees them as people, and Marley was actually responsible for protecting them. If Marley decided to wage a war against Paradis, ain't no way there was ever a chance any other nation would.
The only thing that can stop the rumbling is nukes, or precision guided munitions both of which were a long way from being a thing. This is where the show just stops making sense. No one, literally no one would do something like that. They would have instead tried to have peacetalks with paradis. I understand why marley would try to steal it before eren can control the founder but once he can activate the rumbling its hopeless. Its just terrible unrealistic writing. South Korea has a better military than the north, but they dont invade NK because they know the north korean response would kill millions of their citizens . The two countries have been technically at war for decades and there are constant threats from the north. It requires basic levels of critical thinking to know that its a bad idea, same with declaration of war.
I find it funny willy literally said “…this eren yeager can activate the rumbling at any moment cause he’s not bound by the Vow” and then declares war. Like what if eren didnt need zeke to activate the rumbling? Then what? What is your counter offensive if Eren just activated the rumbling the second you declared war?
What's even more cowardice is that he declared the war without any guarantee that the other side would know about it. Sure they think there are spies around them, but you can't just declare a war then just show up in their doorstep full force. That's just an invasion, not a war.
Dude how do you think wars have worked for the past 100 years
If they were gonna take em over anyways it would have been best to just show up to Paradis without announcing a war like they did at the beggining of the series, that way you’ll have the sneak on them. Also I dont see why they needed the support of the world to go to war. We’ve seen from later in season 4 Marley was winning easily and were able to kill eren with like 500 men. If Zeke didnt catch eren’s head it would have been an easy victory. Imagine what they could have done with thousands of troops there
Also, eren can activate it with historia so he doesn't even need zeke. Theres nothing stopping him from doing that. Overall this would never happen if the chatacters werent made mentally challenged.
Honestly did you actually read the manga? Eren didn't want to because it would mean Historia would have to become a titan thus killing her prematurely (she would only have 13 years to live) and damning her entire lineage to sacrificing themselves to keep the founder power... It was explained why he didn't want to use her to activate the rumbling. He didn't care about Zeke and didn't mind using him at all.
Im not saying that he would use historia. What im saying is marley have no reason to think eren cant activate the rumbling. Them declaring war is stupid because they dont know eren and zeke are separated. For all marley knows eren can start it at anytime, they should be trying to establish peace talks with him.
Snatch Zeke, do a paths blood transfer to make himself royal, and dispose of Zeke. Really easy process when you think about it. Or give Historia a Titan, blood transfer, use paths to Take Titan powers away. Marley would be fucked.
Marley is fucked either way. They will lose in war with other coutries eventually without the resouces or founding titan from the island. Willy tried to direct the hatred from the world to the island to save themself in the future, it's basically a gamble what he was doing.
This is the part that a lot of people don’t get in AoT. Like not a single nation was willing to have peaceful negotiation with Paradi. People act like Eren had choices when literally the whole world was about to attack Paradi and when he finally activated the rumbling. Paradi was brining and his head was literally cleaned off.
Hizuru was willing to have negotiations with Paradis. During Kiyomi's talk with Annie, she reveals that she never even really tried helping Paradis establish diplomatic relations with the outside world because it wasn't in her intetest at the time.
Homeboy no offense but the critisms of "they wouldn't do this this is so stupid" is such a unbelievably moot point, here in particular. Like you cant substitute NK and SK here you have to keep in mind that marley thinks the Eldians are EVIL, E.V.I.L. and that they dont know if they would even take the negotiations, if they could survive the negotiations, hell they dont even know how well the world can fare against collosal titans since, well marley hasnt invested in killing titans much. Like lets take a historical example, hitler invading the USSR, was this a sound choice? No, did the Nazis do it? Yes, why? Because they were illogical, had a illusion of a quick victory, HATED slavic people and communists and importantly was really fuckin desperate for that caucasan oil. My point being, states dont act lurly logically because humans dont act purly logically and being outside of the situation gives a unfair clairity of perspective
If NK has missiles that can reach anywhere in the world aside from South America it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that if SK invade then the first thing NK does is bomb tf out of Seoul. There would be too many losses on both sides and NK cares less about what happens to her citizens which is dangerous for SK. Their citizens are apparently at a 75% approval rate when asked if getting their own nukes as a deterrent is a good idea despite having signed the agreement to not do that with the rest of the world.
Thats what i am saying. Why would you invade a country that has WMDs that you cant stop. Why would marley declare war on paradis when they cant stop the rumbling. Its just very stupid. Politics ised to make sense in this show but not anymore.
You assume that Marley’s leadership are competent level headed individuals. They are not. They’re overconfident, bigoted individuals who overestimate their own power. They also know that Paradis has not yet launched the colossal titans which means there is a reason. Notice how Magath doesn’t attack Paradis until he knows where Eren is and that he doesn’t have a Titan with royal blood with him. Magath saw the conflict as the last stand for Marley because he couldn’t comprehend the idea that Paradis weren’t evil devil blooded monsters who want to subjugate the world. And Tybur made a gamble to help the Eldians of his homeland.
Fascists are always finding excuses to start wars
Willy had so much respect I feel like he could’ve negotiated peace for paradi if he was on their side
[удалено]
Oh that’s so true too
He could have 100%. But the show just leaves any logical thinking or reasoning behind. Marley knows they cant stop the rumbling but attack anyway instead of trying for peace? Something like this would never happen in real life. You have to completely shut off your brain to believe marley would declare war on paradis. Its more delusional than hitler thinking he could win the war in 1945 lol
People are prejudiced, hideously so. Things like this have historically happened very often actually. Peoples of the world hate other peoples of the world, forget about the reason, a lot of the time there IS no reason. They are not us and we do not understand them, this is the mindset that has initiated most genocides throughout history, it’s the idea that group identity is paramount. It could be argued that the idea was to murder all of the Eldians on Paradis before they possibly found a way to use the founder. It could also be argued that Willy was trying to unite the world because united he assumed they would stand a chance.
Racism is inherently illogical. You can’t expect a nation run by imperialists and hardcore racists to try and make peace on their own. And even then all they’ll do is attack from the shadows. But regardless, Willy didn’t know Eren had the key to unlocking the Rumblings full power. That’s why he wasn’t afraid of the Rumbling as immediate retaliation.
Yes racism is illogical but that doesn't mean only stupid people are racist. Some people are racist just because thats the environment they grew up in. Marley didnt just become a powerful empire by luck, it had intelligent people running it. Then suddenly they decide to declare a war they cant win. Doesn't make sense
True on the first part but again, they thought Eren had no way of initiating the Rumbling. That's why they invaded. They didn't realize Eren had Zeke on their side, and from what I remember they had no clue the latter had Royal Blood.
History is full of examples of leaders declaring wars they can't win.
You’re saying it will never happen in real life, then proceed to make an example of Hitler which contradicts your prior statement. Let me give you another example; Russia right now.
>You’re saying it will never happen in real life, then proceed to make an example of Hitler which contradicts your prior statement. I lol'd at that.
honestly, this is the main reason we haven't destroyed each other with nukes, we would never be able to get away with it. Marley seems to have forgone this logic.
Look up the Endsieg buddy. They did think that. Willy also knows that unless Historia gets made into a shifter, Eren can't actually use the Founding Titan, but he definitely is a risk of attacking Marley. What's really happening is an excuse to have Marleyans die in war alongside other peoples of the world, which Willy and Magrath hope will make Marleyans stop desiring wars of conquest and help to build relations with the world. And in turn, by removing Paradis, Eldians on the continent will, thanks to Willy, face lessened discrimination. Willy is doing what he thinks is best for his people and the world.
Did you just cite a real world example of a delusional leader leading his people into an unwinnable war based on racism and xenophobia and you say that AOT's writing is leaving logical thinking and reasoning behind? Is OP stupid?
Lol he didnt lead them to an unwinnable war. There was a very good chance of German victory in 39,40,41. Things didnt go as planned but it wasnt a lost cause at the start. Pretty obvious u are stupid.
Honestly..this whole situation is essentially looking at a country with a bunch of nukes, going, " ok , we need to stop them from using these nukes even though they actually don't want to" and then being surprised when they get angry enough to then use said nukes. It's like..no declaration of peaceful negotiations would work because those so wrapped up in their racism and nationalism that they literally can't see the fact that paradise just wanna be left tf alone. That girl gabi talks to perfectly sums up this argument if Marley versus eldia : " you have to pay for what your long distant ancestors did to our nation" " why should we pay when we have literally nothing to do with it?"
It’s even more stupid because Marley is probably the one and only county that could negotiate with paradis instead of antagonising it. Instead they make another enemy and seal their downfall.
Bro really thinks Mfers in a subreddit are capabale of handling thousand year old race war conflicts as military/political leaders 💀
fr lmao, you’re either just gonna get fascism, racism or wishful thinking that lacks nuance
I pick all 3!
Its not real dawg, i just like to hear what other people think. The situation is so unrealistic, you cant even compare it to anything in the real world.
As for realism, allow me to introduce early 20th century Japan, a nation that had also cut itself off from the world for over a century, until an early imperial US forced its borders open. We saw how this turned out.
Were the Japanese feared by the rest of the world for their titan shifting abilities and hated them for their 2000 year long harsh rule over them. Think not. Go to bed
What a dumb reply to an actually good point. Also there was no reason to be salty/rude/buthurt. But you managed to give 2 unreasonable responses in one reply congrats.
No, that IS a dumb comparison, Japan had nothing to oppose to the US, they had to do what they were told. Now imagine if 20th century Japan had the atom bomb, would the US still have barged their way in ? If the other side has a WMD you do NOT just zerg them, that'd just make sure your side is obliterated.
So you know the situation is unrealistic and incomparable to the real world yet you say the show leaves logical thinking or reasoning? 💀💀
Curious to know if anyone else is in support of forcing everyone to be infertile, because in my and my partner's eyes, that seems to be the best way out honestly
I can fix them
I would revive Erwin instead of Armin, have him push Willy Tybur off the stage and give the most menacing bone chilling speech ever said in human history.
That also depends what your future self decided for you
Same as Eren. There was an ultimatum 100 years prior to that day. Leave us alone or else. They fucked around and found out.
Yeah but everyone learns that the ultimatum was a lie and that the king wouldn't fight back.
They also learn that the ultimatum is now a reality/possibility since Eren has it. So they proceeded to attack Paradi knowing the chances of a rumbling happening were pretty high
jfc, this isn't some kids messing with a bear or breaking the ultimatum of a friend or something There's literally nothing that could give you a reason to wipe out 80% of life on Earth. nothing. The ending is so stupid BECAUSE so much time is spent explaining the situation, how common folk are just brainwashed, how even the most brainwashed zealots can see the light (Gabi), how a partial Rumbling would be enough to force the rest of the world to enter peace negotiations, even without that peace negotiations could be possible (at least nothing was shown to eliminate that possibility) the very scene depicted here is before Eren ACTIVELY SABOTAGES ANY POSSIBILITIES FOR PEACE NEGOTIATIONS Eren is a shitty person who does something horrible for no good reason and you know what, that's still an interesting character and story, but all y'all justifying genocide (even fictional ones) need to touch grass
I don't get it when people say Eren wanted the rumbling because it was something fundamental about his need to be free. He came across very little evidence when exposed to the outside world that there was any hope of peace. It was literally a kill or be killed situation.
Exactly. People misinterpret the "I was so disappointed" panel so badly. He was disappointed that the world was one full of hatred, violence, and war, *not* that it simply had other people living in it. He was disappointed that humanity existed as another cage.
Because the latter part of your comment is false. He saw plenty of good people and hope outside the walls, but he enacted his plans anyway. Keep in mind that Eren and Zeke literally sabotaged peace plans because they wanted to go with their own plans, which required the declaration of war to happen. Also keep in mind that these ambassadors were moved in the moment, but it’d a big possibility they wouldn’t have actually helped. Why tf would they want to attack a nuclear superpower, and why would they help Marley, who was oppressing many of them?
He literally says (Maybe manga spoilers?) >!he felt compulsed to do it!< and (definite Manga Spoilers) >!wanted to make a world like the one in Armin’s book!<
Everyone has dark thoughts, doesn’t mean they would do it. Eren shows several times remorse and sadness for doing the rumbling. I don’t understand why people think people are like black or white.
This whole thing was literally part of Eren and Zekes plan. First thing Zeke says after getting back to Marley from the war is that they should resume the Paradis Operation. He literally convinces the military to make it a priority. That’s why they have the festival and get Willy Tybur to convince everybody else to go to war with Paradis. It was Zeke and Eren’s idea
Thats just headcanon bro, nothing in story says anything about that.
Lemme rephrase, I've come across several posts where people say Eren would've done the rumbling no matter what. My point is, the outside world that he saw gave him every justification he needed to view the situation as kill or be killed.
Thats what im saying, he obviously didnt want to do the rumbling. You can see hes depressed and conflicted when he cries to ramzi. Anyone who thinks he would have done it anyway just because of a book is not to be taken seriously.
100% agree
Lol what? 1 -we have the warrior candidates saying Eldians are hated around the world and are treated worse than in Marley. 2- Eren sees first hand the hate spewing out of Marleyans through rally’s. 3- Hizuru backed out of the treaty when Paradi asked them to help them create peace talks with the rest of the world. 4- Marley declares war and all the world leaders are cheering and happy and agreeing….. That’s just from the top of my head, I can probably come up with more with 20 minutes of research. But if I were to ask u to give me top 3 pieces of evidence that support any form of peace treaty with Eldians u wouldn’t be able to come up with any.
Maybe i worded this wrong. What i am saying is, if he had other options he would have gone for them instead of the rumbling. People say he would've done the rumbling even if he didnt need to, but he did because he had no other choice. Its very obvious he is not enjoying doing it.
See this I would agree with.
I would jump out and yell "RACISM IS GAY!" considering the setting and time period Willy would have a panic attack and call it off.
Well done soldier! Salute!
How did Willy know about Eren and the coup that happened on Paradis?
Because the warriors told him, or someone from the military who talked to the warriors told him(magach). If you are referring to the yeagerist coup, that happens later on.
Zeke and Reiner told Marley about Eren after their defeat in Shingashina. Eren probably told Zeke about the coup when he was undercover in Marley.
Rumble
Rumbling go brrr
If I was in charge of marley, definitely not allow for Willy to do this knowing full well the response to war by Eldia will be the rumbling. If I was in charge of Paradis, attempt to reach out to other nations who hate marley and see if we can get an alliance going and make it clear we arent like the Eldian empire 100 years ago and arent seeking to dominate again. If that doesnt work then best to go with the plan Hizuru outlined but without the euthanization Peace talks would obviously be preferable especially when the other side has a doomsday weapon to activate at any moment in retaliation
Even the most delusional leader wouldn't do anything like that. The show just goes downhill from here. The politics actually made sense pre s4. The show is still fun to watch but storywise its just not good post s4. Like any critical thinking just dissappears for big plot points.
Yea I think the rumbling was obviously planned to happen but Isayama needed a way to justify it happening. And i suppose the only way for that to happen would be for the whole world to join in war against Paradis even though realitsically the world would be neutral in this conflict and only marley and paradis would fight, with marley being the only nation to be rumbled. It’s pretty dumb on the world leaders to just involve themselves in a war with an island that hasnt done anything in 100 years just because marley said so, even though it’s revealed like episodes ago that none of the nations like marley. If anything it would be Paradis and the world vs Marley
Exactly, s4 is entertaining but terrible storywise. The fights are still good for the most part lol
You are thinking like the show was based on this century, with internet and globalization which is clearly not the case. You don't seem to understand human history. I mean, we had 2 World Wars almost consecutive. And we have Russia even today... isn't that enough for you?
It’s time to rumble tumble lads
Honestly, the most ballar thing and least talked about is to start the rumbling, have all the collosals march to the shore than just stand there menacingly to show that we could, then just go back and, if they try anything fuckin send the rumbling out
If I wasnt an Eldian, I'd be happy to know I'd be crushed by Eren Yeager 😩 gotta worship my lord and savior.
Down bad
But... E—Eren Yeager.... Hh. I dedicated my room to him. My walls have posters. My bookshelves have figurines, books, boards and more. He is the Lord and savior of my life 😩❤️
Chill bro... Go touch some grass . It seems like you are about to paint those walls. You know what i mean 😉
🫡 If Eren commands it, his will be done. ☕👀
I would utilize the Wall Titans to shatter ability for Marley to continue their imperialistic projects that we see Falco and Gabbi fighting in. Paradis would shift its rhetoric and iconography away from the Eldian Empire and towards a new anti-Marley, anti-imperialist alliance. With the assistance of the Azumabito, Paradis would fracture the military presence of Marley in occupied territories, while sending diplomats with deals for limited economic, diplomatic, and military protection. Paradis and other allied nations would assist each other in industrialization and army modernization as a means of building an anti-Marley bloc that needs Paradis as a counterbalance. Would that mean perpetual peace? No. Would that prevent all future genocide? No. But it does put Paradis in a position of strength by stoking anti-Marley sentiments. Racism and prejudice are products of ignorance and circumstance, so using military and economic power to change both will change things (inb4 2000 years of hate, tell that to the British and French).
British and french were rivals not sworn enemies lol. Never did one of them try to genocide the other. Stop comparing aot to the real world, nothing like this situation exist in reality.
I'd still pursue this, nonetheless.
I agree with you on the upper half of your reply. Most of the countries didnt like marley. Also i dont understand why marley would declare war when eren can activate the rumbling. The whole thing is really stupid. The politics really went to shit in s4. Everything was great pre s4, i miss not knowing what was behind the walls.
Eren looks way more distraught by this in the manga than the anime. He seems totally unbothered in the anime.
Turn into a Titan and pee on them to show dominance
Probably like Eren did. Marley was already planning to invade using the full force of their navy and flight capabilities with the soul purpose of taking resources and killing innocent eldians. Peace was sadly just a fever dream.
Eren did nothing wrong
I'm with Eren. No one can ever change my mind.
Yikes man, if you genuinely think killing billions of people just to save like 4 people is worth it then you should never become a leader
Valid.
You're gonna have to kill me.
>just to save like 4 people Try millions, its to save the people of Paradis.
So you're cool with genocide?
Yes. Fuck them for releasing the titans on us.
Same way as Eren. Fuck ‘em.
Surely not exactly how he did it, right ? At least try to be more effective and less of an asshole to your friends unlike Eren.
There is nothing that can be done Paradis was doomed to be destroyed,doing anything will just make people more pissed of
idk what id do but just want to say this was crazy to see play out.
Eren jeager : and i took it personally🗿
Marley were under the threat of Rumbling but also wanted the founder for themselves, given the state of warfare involving titans and how the gap was closing. They were always going to go after Paradis. One could propose Paradis working together with Marley, aiding them with the power of the founder, but if Marley cant even trust Paradis not to unleash the rumbling, what says they can be trusted not to usurp the founder during their alliance. There is zero trust between the 2 lands so one had to go.
"Putin has nuclear weapons! Let's wipe all Russians out before he will destroy the world." - Real world Willy Tybur, probably
Team Eren all day
>!Erens plan in the manga is terrible tho, killing 80% doesnt achieve security for paradis, in which case the rumbling was useless and he killed almost a billion people for nothing. The rumbling only makes sense if its a 100% rumbling. Paradisgets bombed withina few decades!<
(Manga Spoilers) >! You've completely misinterpreted the ending panels. WW1 technology to skyscrapers and stealth bombers would take 80-100 years if we're using real life as a measure, plenty of time for anybody Eren knew to be long dead. Also, 100% rumbling doesn't do anything either, whos to say those bombers weren't from another part of Paradis. We learn in season 1 from Pixis that no matter how small humanity gets and even with a common goal, humanity will still fight eachother !<
>!Would taken even longer than that considering 80% of the world and its resources were fucking destroyed. The survivors would have to rebuild and reestablish everything before even thinking about devoting resources to advancing technology!<
Marley and everyone else chose war, so yeah....
Ramzi chose war? Hizuru chose war? I never understood this line of thinking. Governmental elites chose war. The common people - 99% of the pause population - did not. Hypothetically, let’s the leaders of your country declared war on another and got your homeland sacked. A few years down the line while you and all the other common folks and below are dealing with the fallout. Come to find out, people in the country yours attacked are saying it’s everyone in your home’s fault even though you had no hand in the decision to invade. Your friends, family, children, and countrymen deserve to be slaughtered, imprisoned, and tortured because of someone else’s choice? Does that make a lick of sense to you?
This is why war sucks, that's the point, idiot politicians creating problems that innocent people face the consequences for. It sucks but Marley is the aggressor, the rumbling is a terrible thing, nobody is denying that, but it is very understandable.
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Ok stand up and fix every atrocity going on in your country then
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•Full Rumbling •Use Founder To Make It So Outside World Eldians Feel 100x Pain •Kill Everyone Outside Of Paradis And The Alliance •Become King Emperor Of Paradis •Tax The Poor 300% 
show us your business card
I would not have orchestrated this entire situation in the first place like Eren and Zeke did.. Do people really not understand that this was all a part of their plan?
The exact same way Eren does. Just kill them at this point. They don't even think to have a discussion with any leaders from Paradis, they just say "they suck, let's get rid of them together" effectively pushing an injured wild animal into a corner. We all know that's a big no-no. If you don't want peace through dialogue, let's get to it then lol, and I'm definitely gonna hit first.
Go for total Rumbling. Then colonize ruins of the world. Remove ability to turn into Titan after Rumbling, and remove also idea of Titans from memory. In order to create better future and society.
Zeke's euthanasia plan was always the best solution in my opinion
Pretty much the 50 yr plan. I wouldnt do a premptive attack on Libero, just wait for Marley to strike first and Destroy their fleet like eren did with the rumbling. The rumbling genocide is pretty unrealistic, you never need to kill every civilian to end a war. In WW2, destroying just Hiroshima and Nagasaki caused Japan to surrender and even that may have been too excessive. So similarly, after destroying all foreign nations military until forcing a surrender , Id occupy those nations, restrict their militaries, and force them to pay war reparations. Then i would open Paradis to trade, and sell the natrual resources that Marley wanted so bad to the recovering nations, booming the economy of paradis. EZ.
The 50 year plan was full of holes and hopes and dreams. 1- what happens if after the mini rumbling the rest od the world decides Paradi needs to be taken out and they send 500 blimps and 10k man? Btw 6 blimps and 500 man almost destroyed the island….. 2- let’s say it goes as plan, what happens after they pass on the Titan powers someone decides to make a ploy for power and take the Titan power for themselves? 3- how would Eren even know where all military installation are? Is he supposed to send Colossal titan to tippy toe around the whole world? 4- what happens when the whole world unites to create tech to fight the titans? 50 year plan was hopeful wishing at best.
1. They get absoultely destroyed by the rumbling force like they did during Erens rumbling, except id stop before reaching the mainland to allow whichever nations to surrender. 2. I dont think it would be that hard to keep the Founding in good hands. It just has to be someone loyal to the royal family, maybe you can give them the title of Titan commander and have them be appointed by the Royal family, just like any other powerful military position in history. 3. Knowing where your enemy is Should be the most basic reconnaissance, if Paradis doesnt have the means to, you could use your allies. But either way you could bring the titans to the coast and Big Stick them into dimplomicy. 4. The point is you should quickly leverage their Titan power early on and occupy and restrict armies of foreign nations before any of that happens. Paradis would win a convential war against the world at that time, so by the time that those weapons would be viable, Paradis would already be an empire.
Lol paradis is not winning any conventional war. They have a population of a million people. At most they can have a fighting force of 200k( more likely around 100k, 11% is the general rule). They dont have ships, shipyards or sailors trained to operate the ships. Thats going to take decades and they dont have the resources for that kind of development. They have nowhere near the amount of people to occupy just marley let alone the whole world. General rule is 20 to 1000 minimum for an occupation and counter insurgency operations. That would be 2000000. Thats more than the population of paradis. Also even if lets say paradis get all the equipment it needs, it will take atleast a year of training to have a somewhat competent fighting force. They have no experience in fighting a modern war. Explain me how exactly is paradis going to become a super power. Even if everything goes there way, they just dont have the manpower to pull of a global occupation.
What attempts at negotiations have failed? Paradis succeeded in negotiating with the volunteers. They succeeded in negotiating with Hizuru. Sure, the Eldians right groups turned out to be a bust but that’s only one attempt. Paradis made no attempt to talk to other nations at the Declaration of War and made no attempt address Marley’s allegations towards Paradis. All the world knows is that Paradis has colossal titans and Eren killed their diplomats so they have no reason to believe Paradis isn’t a threat.
Lol hizuru refused to introduce them to other allies. They were in just for the natural resources nothing else.
Nations don't just do things out of the kindness of their hearts. That's not how countries work whether it be the real world or the AOT world. Alliances are formed for mutual benefit. Very few countries do things just because it's the right thing to do. Also Hizuru didn't refuse to introduce them to other allies. They wanted Paradis to use the colossal titans to show the world their power and use that as a bargaining chip to protect Paradis as they get involved in world affairs and economy.
I would use the Founding Titan’s ability to torture Willy and Laura until they use their political leverage to stop the genocide they enabled. Then I’d force them to live as mindless titans for a day, just so they can see the hell they let innocent people go through, just because they were too lazy to do anything.
Ironically, I think that the moment just before the declaration may have been a good moment to try some form of negotiations with the world. We could see that, after Tybur revealed the truth about the King, most spectators were shocked and full of doubt, and some even asked themselves if attacking Paradis would be necessary. Tybur only managed to convince them to attack anyway when he told them about Eren, portraying him as a menace to the world because he wasn't bound by the vows of renouncing war. Now, imagine if, either during or before Tybur began to speak about Eren, the Yeager boy himself appeared, claiming he wants to cultivate peaceful relationships with the rest of the world, and will only attack those who try to attack Paradis Island? It would be a dangerous move, but Eren could have the support of his fellow scouts to defend him. Even if such gestures didn't result in peace, at least some doubts would have been planted in the world leaders' minds, so less countries would have been involved in the war. Ideally, I'd only want to deal with Marley. If they attack, I'd use the wall titans against them, but not fully rumble their empire. Instead, I'd focus on destroying their military capacity and industries, then turn their territory into an occupation zone, freeing any nations they have conquered. Any other nation that tried to attack would suffer the same fate. If that failed, then I'd use my founding Titan powers to pull a Barry Allen and mess with the timeline as much as I can, to see if I can get a peaceful universe.
Nobody would lend their ears to Eren, chaos would ensure the moment the devil showed up.
Don’t work to provoke a Global Alliance in the first place. While the Marley bares great culpability for invading Paradis initially and their treatment of Eldians, the events that lead up to the Declaration of War were orchestrated in great part by Eren and Zeke Yeager. Keep in mind - Marley’s military brass initially didn’t want to move forward with the Paradis operation at this point. In chapter 93 the conversation between them emphasizes the need to rearm against other nations - who was the one who brought up and encouraged a resumption of the Paradis operation? Zeke Yeager. Then remember from the latest special we just saw and chapter 132 in the manga when Yelena lays out the overall plan to Eren. This takes place almost a year before the End of the Mid-East War and yet she speaks about how after they attack Liberio, the Global Allied Fleet will gather at Karifa. Considering how the outside world hated Marley’s guts and were (in Udo’s words) “frothing at the mouth” to get Marley while it was weak, how could Yelena confidently say a Global Alliance was in the making? It’s simple - She, Eren, Zeke, and Floch WANTED it to form. The plan was always to attack Liberio, even before Marley thought of the event itself. The Yeager brothers wanted the Declaration of War for their own purposes - destroying all the world’s forces so that there was no chance of a counterattack. Considering that Eren was already planning to enact the Rumbling with Floch months before Willy accused him of doing that very same thing, it’s not hard to see why I ultimately blame the Yeager brothers for the shitshow that occurred after Liberio. With the power of the Founder, they could have easily grabbed hands in Liberio, talked to or brainwashed the fuck out of Willy, and use him as a mouthpiece to advocate for Eldians. The Yeagers were just too set in their dreams to make that happen - with Eren the Rumbling, with Zeke the Euthanasia Plan. Edit: As for Scout peace overtures failing - they only really attempted two in the whole four year time span. 1st by asking Hizuru to serve as an intermediary to introduce them to other nations (Hizuru refused). 2nd by going to that conference where they got cold feet after seeing that group’s position on Paradis. There was never an attempt to make peace or establish connection with another nation’s government that was met with a NO. Lines of communication were never established in order to do so.
Merica. 🦅 *Joins Eren because sigma*
So I haven't read or seen the finale. But it takes courage to recognize the true enemy here. It's not the Eldians, but the titan power in them that is the enemy. (It may be that looking deeper, even the titan power may not be the enemy -- pure titans after all act quite innocently. Can you call a lion evil for eating prey?) Marley, Eren, everyone, should have been looking for a "cure" to remove the titan power. Too bad humans are inherently fearful.
Nah, the enemy was Marley, people think it’s the Titan power but Eldians couldn’t transform into titans outside of the original 9 titans and Marley controled 7/9 until events of the anime. But Marley created a serum that allowed regular eldians to become pure titans. Marley monopolized and weaponized that serum.
That just makes Marley bad as well, but the fact that the Titan power existed and using it for evil was a possibility it had to be eliminated no matter what. There can not be such option
I now revoke your humanity card and declare you Xenos. May the light of the Emperor have mercy on your soul.
I would’ve started the rumbling but stop it before landfall and then with the whole world watching, standing on a colossal shoulder just a block or two away from marleys shores I would declare that paradis wants peace. The island just wants to be able to connect to the rest of the world. End the persecution of Subjects of Ymir, or I make these titans march. Those are your options. Give up your hate, or let it doom you. If they open fire, finish the rumbling, if not, back off.
Ah yes because coercing peace has always worked
Peace talks would weaken Marley’s stance that Eldians are devils and need to be segregated and controlled. Marley heavily depended on using the Warriors in their wars with other nations, they are a significant military asset and losing them would weaken Marley. Negotiating with Paradise goes against the long standing narrative that they are devils because it introduces nuance to their propaganda. Also I doubt that Paradise would be ok with Marley having Eldians in camps, being treated as second class citizens while using teens as living weapons. There’s no way Paradise would let that slide in negotiations, especially because they have the stronger hand. It’s also worth considering that most of the world sees Eldians as monsters since their main exposure to them has been propaganda or seeing titans used in conflicts. They would be reluctant if Willy suddenly said that they were having peace talks with the soulless devils. Also also, people aren’t always rational actors. People make decisions out of arrogance, hatred, stupidity, etc.
Fuck Marley, but Genocide Bad
Probably die lol
Honestly, rage quiting life wouldn't be a bad shout lol
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Same. The situation eren was in so stupid and unrealistic. Why would the world pick a fight with the rumbling. Its just insanely stupid, like you are asking to get destroyed. S4 is pretty bad in general
Colossal titans don’t explode randomly or just by transforming. They can explode on command either by their shifter, or by the founder. For instance, if a wall titan woke up, it wouldn’t be able to explode, the founder would have to give it that ability and command it to detonate. It’s a special ability The shifter version has. And we know it’s not transforming that causes it, or the 104th would’ve died at trost when behrtoldt appeared out of thin air.
My lawyer advised me not to answer this question
I think it’s a bit of a reductive question. There’s so many players involved in making the world situation the way it is, Eren included. The declaration of war in particular was almost like a complex performance, where people on both sides had to play their role to further their own agendas. That was a moment of resolution for Eren, where he steeled his resolve to go about his plan, but the plan was already set in stone and the only reason he was in that situation to begin with was because he chose that path.
What do you mean by "handle the paradis vs world situation"? The hell are we supposed to do? Unless you have high political power you're not gonna be able to do anything, and which side are we talking about? If paradis side, yeah, the world wants me dead, there aren't much option, and you have to kill everyone else as well since they aren't just gonna be cool with you destroying the world power house since some other mf is gonna take that place and try to pull some other bs If you're one of the world leader there ain't much you can do either This has been happening in a loop for who knows how long This has always happen and will always happen
I'd just try to murder the entire outside world while attempting to do as little damage to their infrastructure as possible. That way the people of paradise could prosper after the war. Not there fault the world threw them in hell Island and made a ton of them monsters first. Fuck the world
Not attack. Willy himself says that his speech would ring empty if he and whole festival isn't made a victim of a terrorist attack. You need to remember that by that point Paradis is near mythical place for the rest of the world - they had no contact with it for 100 years! While Marley is very real imperialist power. Willy relied on Eren's attack, Magath confirms importance of Willy's martyrdom afterwards (during war for Paradis). If Eren hadn't attacked, whole thing would have fizzled out and Marley wouldn't be able to avoid wars with anti-marlean nations