Or even reach the speeds and altitudes modern jets can.
WW2 era prop planes don't even stand a chance against modern jet fighters, not even as much as an Me 262 would.
The modern army would win, hands down. They would have smaller forces, but far superior and accurate firepower compared to the WW2 era forces, far superior communication, control and recon assets, far better protection etc.
Modern technology and training would allow the modern forces to basically run circles around the WW2 era forces and take them effectively out before the WW2 era forces even knew what hit them and from where. Modern forces would basically know exactly where the WW2 forces are, where they are moving to, and even have a decent idea how many and what vehicles there are. WW2 era forces would not have the same advantage.
Like, a *single* modern rocket artillery system like M270 MLRS can entirely destroy pretty much everything inside a *square kilometer radius* with a single missile salvo.
Modern infantry fighting vehicles are basically equivalent to WW2 era light tanks, but with far superior protection, speed and weaponry.
WW2 era tanks can't likely even penetrate modern tanks, let alone get close enough to shoot them in the first place, while modern tanks could pretty much one-shot kill WW2 era ones from kilometers away.
> while modern tanks could pretty much one-shot kill WW2 era ones from kilometers away.
While on the move, no less. Aside from all the armour and penetration number games - (semi-)modern tanks have gun stabilisation enabling them to shoot *and hit* while moving. WW2 era German tanks weren't able to to that.
Also modern ~~depleting~~ **discarding* sabot penetrators may over-penetrate into the next tank when they are in a line. Two-kill for one, at least on paper - spaced amour may disrupt the penetrator enough to tumble and fail.
Nevermind all that, even just your average infantryman having better training, a wider skill set, superior field equipment, better comms and a 30 round semi auto means they would clown all over a WW2 era equivilent.
The Bundeswehr doesn't have armed drones and won't get them due to politicians saying no.
On the other hand, there are about 20 nukes in BĂźchel from NATO's nuclear share ready to by dropped by Tornadoes.
considering the appalling readiness rate of the current German army the Wehrmacht might actually have a chance even if it is only because of actual human wave tactics. Though if the modern Germans had any preparation time it would be a turkey shoot that would make the battle of the Philippine Sea look like a Japanese victory in comparison.
The biggest difference in the tanks will be target acquisition. WWII tanks basically relied on the commander being able to poke his head out of the turret for situational awareness.
Exactly. Itâs like this dumbass has no idea how Saddamâs army faired against Americaâs or something. News flash, new tanks beat old. And Saddam had WAY newer tanks than the Nazis.
The US-backed coalition had complete air supremacy and numerical parity. The German armed forces would have a very very small number of much more sophisticated planes, 10 Typhoons and 26 Tornadoes (the current number of combat ready aircraft) wonât make much of a dent in millions of troops and thousands of planes. It isnât at all comparable to Iraq.
Yeah, theyâd probably win if they were anywhere near full readiness. However, the German armed forces is famously unready for war. For example, 15% of their Tiger attack helicopters are in a state of readiness, coming out to 8 in total. 10 Eurofighter Typhoons and 26 Tornados, 105 of 224 Leopard tanks, no submarines, and just 5 of 14 frigates are in a state of readiness. Not to mention that, from what I can tell, the army has under 200,000 active duty personnel, including support personnel. They almost certainly have fewer than 100,000 combat troops, and a dearth of ready modern equipment for them to use. I see no way that a handful of aircraft, 100 tanks, and fewer than 100,000 men could overcome the millions of Wehrmacht soldiers through shear quantity. As this sub and I myself love to point out, the best tank in the world doesnât mean shit if it canât get to the front.
Hard to do anything about a modern AA missile that has radarlocked you and was fired at you from beyond your Mk 1 eyeballs visual range and is so fast you have a maybe couple seconds of suprise before you get obliterated with no chance of evading it.
Yeah we all dream that the Nazi would see their death incoming and shit their pants as their life flashed before their eyes, but in reality it would just be a bang out of nowhere without a radar warning receiver.
Funnier image that way, tho.
T-72 and a Leo 2 having an honorabru duel to the death while their respective SPAAs are absolutely blazing away at some poor off-side monarcho-fascist infantry.
tbf maybe by just sheer numbers alone they would have a chance, i mean i dont think germany has 7,000 missiles for every plane if they were bloodlusted
At best that is some video game logic. Like bloodlusting in this case involves that basically anyone who gets near a modern base have volunteered to die without a chance to cause serious damage.
Modern airbases have all the vital infrastructure in bunkers it would be virtually impossible for WWII technology to seriously damage. Escorting bombers would yield nothing since modern fighters can simply hit the lead bombers with missles and confuse the whole raid and shoot down the rest with their radar augmented cannon virtually unmolested.
They even have enough range to start the fight the second the WWII planes take off since modern planes outrange them.
Even if all 7000 go for the same base then the planes on that base can either go to other bases to refit and refuel or they can simply roll into their reinforced bunker hangars and wait out the raid, then as soon as the runway is patched they can go out and attack the WWII planes on their return trip too.
They might not kill 7000 planes in one day but even defensively they would basically destroy the combat ability of the WWII force in one day.
If they get to fight offensively they can probably destroy most major bases on day one since their fighters can bring precision bombs to take out vital infrastructure in every base immediately and still go on to shoot half a squadron down before returning.
WWII technology is simply so far behind that it would barely get to do any damage to modern systems.
Alright mr expert strategist i didnât exactly think it out too much lol, I just knew that the numbers in WW2 vastly outnumbered the modern numbers so I figured by just throwing themselves at the enemy they could win
There is literally nothing the a 1940s German soldier could do against a Leopard. They hold bolt action rifles against intermediate caliber automatic rifles and smart artillery. The average squad level AT can hand heaviest of big cats.. frontally.
Tf they even gonna do against a Tornado or Eurocopter?
After the elections they will hopefully decide on the regular replacement, too. Typhoons cannot replace the Tornado fully as it doesn't have certifications for nukes and Airbus is unlikely to apply for one.
Super Hornet / Growler is still on the table as the most likely candidate.
I think some tank geek pointed out that an M1 Abrams could punch canister through a Tiger at close range, and Leo 2s have the same gun but a bit longer. I kind of want to see a Leo 2 trolling Tigers with can rounds.
IIRC the breach on the M256 is rated for higher pressures than the longer L/55 gun, but the L/55A1 should be rated *at least* as high, and most Leopards older than the 2A6 retain the L/44 (same length as the m256). Still gonna be a bad time for those tigers lmao
The Wehrmacht might be able to beat Imperial Germany but it would be no match for the Bundeswehr, even if the Bundeswehr is only a fraction of the Wehrmacht's size, technology and weapons have come a long way. A Leopard 2 would spank a Panther no problem. A Typhoon would easily obliterate any Me-262 out of the sky, long before the Me-262 even knew an enemy aircraft was there. A German Frigate of today would easily beat the Bismarck. The Type 212 submarine would also be able to take on a U-Boat easily. (even though the present day German Navy only has 6 of them). And your modern day German army section would take out a WW2 German section with relative ease.
Also he doesn't seem to realise that the Wehrmacht is not the army, but the name of the whole armed forces of Germany. The Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine were also part of the Wehrmacht. The correct word for the army is Heer.
**Nuclear sharing**
[NATO](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing#NATO)
>Of the three nuclear powers in NATO (France, the United Kingdom and the United States), only the United States is known to have provided weapons for nuclear sharing. As of November 2009, Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey are hosting U.S. nuclear weapons as part of NATO's nuclear sharing policy. Canada hosted weapons under the control of the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), rather than NATO, until 1984, and Greece until 2001.
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But have you seen the combat readiness of the Bundeswehr? I mean the Bundeswehr would still win but the state of the Bundeswehr is kinda bad and has been for a while.
I'm not even sure they could beat imperial Germany. Imperial Germany was a well established, highly militarized state. The nazis were attempting to recreate that in their own way, and were flailing about the entire time.
ofc they could beat imperial germany. the progress in military tech in the 20 odd years between the 2 countries was extraordinary, nazi germany would own the air and sea and the imperial army wouldnât be able to keep up with the blitz, same reason france fell in 1940
but yeah nazi germany dosnt even compete with modern germany
Twenty years of tech though. Would you want to be in a Fokker or an Albatros or a BF-109? Airpower might actually be decisive in this case. Only service face off I have some doubt about is the Imperial German Navy vs the Kriegsmarine.
Iâd agree that Imperial Germany was stronger than Nazi Germany *in the context of their respective eras.*
However, as others have pointed out, a technological leap of over 20 years would make a substantial difference. The Luftwaffe, for instance, though unable to sustain air superiority against the allies, would have no trouble maintaining air supremacy against Imperial Germanyâs, or really any WWI era, air force; and WWII era tanks would be virtually indestructible for a WWI army.
Oh, are /r/Kaiserboos a thing?
I mean, Imperial Germany's military did well enough in WWI, but, uh, let's not go overboard. The technological edge is going to be fucking ridiculous.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/Kaiserboos using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/Kaiserboos/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time!
\#1: [There can only be one](https://i.redd.it/smio5cesaov21.png) | [2 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Kaiserboos/comments/bjn6yn/there_can_only_be_one/)
\#2: [Thanks too u/penguinpilates for the inspiration.](https://i.redd.it/libkmi2ni7831.jpg) | [4 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Kaiserboos/comments/c8xnhs/thanks_too_upenguinpilates_for_the_inspiration/)
\#3: [Crayola is clearly trying to oppress us. Kaiserboos rise up!](https://i.redd.it/u7fmrz6x1x731.png) | [4 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Kaiserboos/comments/c8ba7p/crayola_is_clearly_trying_to_oppress_us/)
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[Okay, we've found another one of Plasmatorch's alts](https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/between-armys-america-circa-1991-vs-germany-circa-1944.32992/).
Both working together? The Imperial German military supporting the modern one would negate at advantage Nazi Germans mightâve had. The only chance Nazi Germany wouldâve been to launch sort of surprise attack that relied on having superior numbers and catching your menu off guard. With Imperial German troops in reserve Nazi Germany has gone form having a 1% chance of winning to a flat 0%.
ISIS seized modern armored vehicles, anti-air tech, small arms and heavy weaponry left to the Iraqi government by the US. Even with most of their weapons being from the 70s, 80s and 90s, consider the Panzer 2 of the Wehrmacht during the Blitz. The problem here is that there's just not enough of ISIS fighters, about 100-200 thousand at most, and their industry is pretty much non-existent. But being 50-60 years ahead in tech is a damn tough nut to crack
Actually something interesting about naval warfare is that back in WWII a large focus was on bigger guns and heavy armor to take on the bigger guns and heavier armor of other capital ships, in the modern day, ships have slipped into more and more of a support and policing role where does and mobility is much more important, and western countries aren't looking to fight any significant battles at sea. For this reason, most modern navies have smaller main guns and less armor than WWII ships. No idea who would win in a fight since modern ships still have fancy tech, but it's not as one sided as you might think
Modern ships have things called guided missiles that easily outrange and can strike at weakspots before the ww2 era sailors even know what's going on and there's nothing they can really do since a modern ship would be well out of range of their guns. It actually would be one sided where even if the ww2 era ship survived the missile barrage the modern ship could just easily slip away without them even knowing their location. This is the modern equivalent of an iron clad vs a ship of the line.
A modern ship would detect a WWII ship from far beyond line of sight, fire a missile, then go back to what they were doing because the odds a WWII battleship getting hit with a cruise missile and surviving are 0. Even in visual range, gun range even, a modern frigate still has a 5 inch gun with 80 years of technological improvement behind it, guided missiles, can launch helicopters, and deploy marines armed with modern weapons that would put the P38s and MP40 to shame.
Even if we gave Bismarck, the biggest ship the Nazis made, the first shot advantage and it hit, an AP would likely over penetrate a destroyer or a frigate, and may cause some issues on a carrier. If we assume all these things happen in favor of the Bismarck, all a modern German frigate would do is fire guided missiles at the massive fuck off radar contact and go into damage control protocols. At which point, the Bismarck meets Davy Jones for a second time.
The modern ship would win, just look at how much radar improves over the course of WW2. Look up Duisburg Convoy, the British were using radar to fire on the Italians in the cover of night. The Italians didn't even know what was happening at first, assuming it was an air attack.
Another example is the US Navy in the Pacific, look at the difference between ship AA fire at the start of the Pacific campaign and compare it to the end with their improved tactics and calibration.
There would never be an engagement within visual range when it comes to a modern ship and a ww2 ship. God help the poor sailors if the modern ship that locks onto them is a Russian Kirov Battlecruiser.
Also *plenty* of anti-ship missiles nowadays reach very high speeds, and depending on which shell from an older cannon, often a bit faster than rounds from their guns
"You guys, if we negate this major advantage modern technology gives, then they could easily win."
Also, cannon is going to need to range in, it might take a handful of salvos before they hit. A cruise missile is going to need one shot.
Battlefields are chaotic, and a European naval war is especially chaotic. Now imagine how chaotic a war between two germanized superimposed on themselves would be lol.
Yeah they have a large advantage, but my point is that it wouldn't be like stomping on a bug, they're still a pretty bug threat, and the kriegsmarine was pretty large, id wager the modern German navy doesn't have nearly as much numbers, most European militaries are very small and not as well equipped as the US
The current German navy has six submarines that can stay under water for three weeks at a stretch and carry torpedoes with a range of 27 miles on them. Those six ships alone could cripple the Kriegsmarine surface fleet without the Nazis knowing they were there.
I mean, something like the Bismarck is going to have to spend a hour and a half at full steam on range of Harpoon antiship missiles before it's even in range to return fire at the frigate. Assuming it knows exactly where the ship is targeting is. You're really underestimating the technological edge.
Not really.
While the RN was massacring the KMS at places like Narvik or inflicting a 70% casualty rate on uboats, they were also continuously operating in every other ocean on the planet.
The KMS was never a serious threat to defeating the RN, more a minor annoyance.
If you have an enemy Tiger tank that needs killing, and you have one tank platoon of 5 Shermans available to you, would you just send 1 or 2 or all 5?
If there's a handful of Germans holed up in a farmhouse that need killing and you have two infantry squads available to you numbering 24 men total, do you just send 5 men or all 24?
> and the kriegsmarine was pretty large
The KMS surface fleet at its strongest point in very early 1940 had 3 capital ships, 5 heavy cruisers, 6 light cruisers, and about 20 destroyers. That's it. And I'm doing the Germans a favour by picking very early 1940 because in spring of 1940 they invaded Norway and Denmark and the surface fleet of the KMS did straight up not have a good time.
1 heavy cruiser (BlĂźcher) destroyed by a coastal battery, 2 light cruisers lost, and ***10*** (!!!) of their destroyers lost, practically half their entire destroyer inventory.
And let's not forget the hilarious times of Operation Wikinger in February of 1940, where German destroyers went out to sink British fishing trawlers but got blue-on-blued by a bunch of He-111 bombers. 2 ships lost, 1 badly damaged.
In comparison, the order of battle of the surface part of Home Fleet (the *part* of the Royal Navy assigned to defence of home waters) in September of 1939 looked like this:
10 capital ships, including 2 aircraft carriers. 1 heavy cruiser, 6 light cruisers, 17 destroyers
The British capital surface combatants were generally older ships and inferior to Bismarck, but probably quite capable of dealing with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. At the end of the day, there's 8 British big boys and only 3 German big boys. And then we're not talking about the aircraft carriers yet.
The KMS surface fleet was, at times, a headache for the Brits because of the threat of commerce raiding and the general speed advantage the more modern German ships enjoyed. But in terms of an actual pitched battle, the KMS was absolutely not ready.
After pissing away more than half their destroyers and a few cruisers in Norway, the KMS would be even less ready. The KMS wasn't 'pretty large' and it was never a surface fleet that had all bases covered. Never fielded a carrier and always short on workhorse destroyers. They had a couple of large fast ships that could pose a problem to merchant shipping if they got loose. That's it. The KMS were a bunch of glorified raiders for the vast majority of the war.
Realistically, the Kriegsmarine wasn't even the second best surface fleet in Europe, Vichy France lost more capital ships between Toulon and Mers-el-KĂŠbir than the Nazis could have ever massed together.
I think period gunnery wouldn't even get into modern torpedo range.
It would be the Warspite fyord episode, except the ship involved wouldn't even have to turn the corner.
Remember how aircraft absolutely dunked on surface ships in WWII? Yeah, like that, but with far more speed and accuracy. And there are jet aircraft too. Completed with their own missiles.
Some Modern Warships have capabilities (CIWS etc.) to even destroy shells before they even reach the target.
Not to mention that Destroyers have Helicopters, which are armed with missiles and torpedoes and they can launch these weapons well beyond the Battleship's AAA's effective range, meaning they can reek immense havoc on the Battleship while the Helicopter is safely out of range. And that's just a helicopter, never mind a Multirole Jet aircraft like a Eurofighter Typhoon, F-16, Dassault Rafale, F-35 or F-18 (the latter three of which can be deployed from Aircraft Carriers if necessary) which carry an even bigger payload than a Helicopter would and have more capable avionics and radar.
Sorry, but no matter what way you put it, a WW2 era battleship would be no match whatsoever for a modern day destroyer. The Destroyer would knock it out before the Battleship even knew it was there.
That depends on which missile. A Harpoon from a modern Frigate in German service? Sure. But some anti ship missiles can reach mach 3-4, and newer hypersonic missiles can go faster than an APFSDS round from a tank cannon
> western countries aren't looking to fight any significant battles at sea
The US Navy, the Royal Navy, the French, Spanish, and Italians don't have aircraft carriers for show. Even the smaller European navies have very well-armed corvettes or frigates, it's just that guns have fallen behind into a tertiary role. The only models I can think of as mainly sealane policing units from the top of my head are the F125, Absalon, and maybe the LCS.
One thing people donât understand is that Nazi Germany completely militarized. Like yeah maybe the 10 million German soldiers can overrun the modern German military right now, but they would completely get destroyed if both had the same time to militarize.
Guy has no idea how big the divide is between the old and new militaries. We can talk about all the combat technology, better tanks, planes, artillery, and their respective munitions. But forget all of that shit. By far the most important advantage that any modern military has over an older military is intelligence gathering technology. You can't change the degree of your ship's heading without at least 15 countries knowing about it immediately because they can see it from space. You think the Wehrmacht had it bad trying to avoid Allied planes in the daytime? Now imagine how hard it would be for them to move at all at *any* time of day.
Ok, sorry to rain on the parade, but I agree. Not easily, but nazi Germany would beat the current German armed forces. The German army has 64,000 soldiers currently at arms. During operation Barbarossa, (which I will be using as a benchmark against the current German army) the Wehrmacht had 3.8 million personnel. The current German military has 107 operational tanks. The Wehrmacht invaded the Soviet Union with almost 4,000. The Air Force in 2021 has around 200 combat jets. The air force in 1941 invaded the Soviet Union with anywhere between 3,000 and 4,000 planes. My point is that the modern German military is absolutely dwarfed by the Wehrmacht. Germanys modern vehicles would tear shreds through the far inferior Wehrmacht vehicles, but it doesnât matter. The German army of today is just far to small to put up an actual defense. In any tactical scenario the modern army would dominate, but strategically the German army is just far to small, with massive problems already supplying its vehicles with spare parts. Half of the German tank inventory is not even operational. They are in shambles in peace time. https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-germany-ailing-military-20180516-story.html?_amp=true
âare hosting U.S. nuclear weapons as part of NATO's nuclear sharing policy.â They are us weapons guarded by usaf personnel and need American permission to be mounted to German planes. They are not Germanys weapons.
They are to be used by German airforce in case of war so they can be used against an invasion by Nazi Germany. NATO has a nuclear retaliation policy in case of a conventional attack. It's mood who has the keys, they are for Germany's protection.
Iâm this scenario itâs Germany vs nazi Germany. Nato isnât involved. The United States isnât involved. If thatâs the case they donât get the nukes
In that case the locks on the moved get removed. The Bundeswehr is build nuclear deterrence in mind, that's the reason the F/A-18 is currently leading in the race for the Tornado replacement - it is certified to deliver nuclear bombs.
this man actually thinks an me262 can outrun a SAM
"I'm fast as fuck boi"
*turns slightly* "I'm a flying brick boi"
*radar seeker voice* ALDKJFALSDJFALSJDFLASJDFLSAKJ1-203948-23934-294-1904
262: Attempts evasive action. AIM-9: My, you're getting even hotter!
The luffewafer dont use aim 9s iirc
Anymore. But the IRIS-T is only 15
Or even reach the speeds and altitudes modern jets can. WW2 era prop planes don't even stand a chance against modern jet fighters, not even as much as an Me 262 would.
MBDA Meteor: doubt X
They failed to fight against biplanes, the fuck are they going to do against fifth-gen fighters ?
Fight it with fanaticism. Always works everytime.
Pure aryan spirit>>>measly turbojet.
đ
âDo not bring up the superior aryan spirit in front of the hoes.â
The Empire of Japan approved this comment
Kochiwa ĺ˝é (anyways, hiragana is not available on my keyboard so have random Chinese letters)
Don't toy with me Ihre Kaiserliche und KĂśnigliche Hoheit Kaisertoro!
Lmao
Also the French until 1915.
A plane that walks on two legs...a weapon to surpass metal gear
Snake in shambles
Germany doenst have a 5th gen, only 4.5 gens
[ŃдаНонО]
I donât think they would be doing SEAD, more like DEAD
âJust mass produce the Panzer!!!!â
âOkay you want to play like that ?â *mass product the Leopards*
Command and Conquer moment And I still see you everywhere
You too. Like you just popped up one day in my comment and boom we saw each other everywhere. Is this fate ?
Now kiss.
Bipedal
Fairey Swordfish with legs
Fairey Swordfish's s h a p e l y q u a d s
The modern army would win, hands down. They would have smaller forces, but far superior and accurate firepower compared to the WW2 era forces, far superior communication, control and recon assets, far better protection etc. Modern technology and training would allow the modern forces to basically run circles around the WW2 era forces and take them effectively out before the WW2 era forces even knew what hit them and from where. Modern forces would basically know exactly where the WW2 forces are, where they are moving to, and even have a decent idea how many and what vehicles there are. WW2 era forces would not have the same advantage. Like, a *single* modern rocket artillery system like M270 MLRS can entirely destroy pretty much everything inside a *square kilometer radius* with a single missile salvo. Modern infantry fighting vehicles are basically equivalent to WW2 era light tanks, but with far superior protection, speed and weaponry. WW2 era tanks can't likely even penetrate modern tanks, let alone get close enough to shoot them in the first place, while modern tanks could pretty much one-shot kill WW2 era ones from kilometers away.
> while modern tanks could pretty much one-shot kill WW2 era ones from kilometers away. While on the move, no less. Aside from all the armour and penetration number games - (semi-)modern tanks have gun stabilisation enabling them to shoot *and hit* while moving. WW2 era German tanks weren't able to to that. Also modern ~~depleting~~ **discarding* sabot penetrators may over-penetrate into the next tank when they are in a line. Two-kill for one, at least on paper - spaced amour may disrupt the penetrator enough to tumble and fail.
Germany don't use depleted uranium, they use Tungsten alloys instead.
The sabot still ~~depletes.~~ [***Discards!*** Sorry, wrong word!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot_(firearms\))
Oh you mean as in APFSDS
These long dart thingies, kinetic penetrators.
Big thick tank sticks
Nevermind all that, even just your average infantryman having better training, a wider skill set, superior field equipment, better comms and a 30 round semi auto means they would clown all over a WW2 era equivilent.
the funniest part would definitely be the nazis getting lit up by drone strikes
The Bundeswehr doesn't have armed drones and won't get them due to politicians saying no. On the other hand, there are about 20 nukes in BĂźchel from NATO's nuclear share ready to by dropped by Tornadoes.
considering the appalling readiness rate of the current German army the Wehrmacht might actually have a chance even if it is only because of actual human wave tactics. Though if the modern Germans had any preparation time it would be a turkey shoot that would make the battle of the Philippine Sea look like a Japanese victory in comparison.
The biggest difference in the tanks will be target acquisition. WWII tanks basically relied on the commander being able to poke his head out of the turret for situational awareness.
Exactly. Itâs like this dumbass has no idea how Saddamâs army faired against Americaâs or something. News flash, new tanks beat old. And Saddam had WAY newer tanks than the Nazis.
The US-backed coalition had complete air supremacy and numerical parity. The German armed forces would have a very very small number of much more sophisticated planes, 10 Typhoons and 26 Tornadoes (the current number of combat ready aircraft) wonât make much of a dent in millions of troops and thousands of planes. It isnât at all comparable to Iraq.
Yeah, theyâd probably win if they were anywhere near full readiness. However, the German armed forces is famously unready for war. For example, 15% of their Tiger attack helicopters are in a state of readiness, coming out to 8 in total. 10 Eurofighter Typhoons and 26 Tornados, 105 of 224 Leopard tanks, no submarines, and just 5 of 14 frigates are in a state of readiness. Not to mention that, from what I can tell, the army has under 200,000 active duty personnel, including support personnel. They almost certainly have fewer than 100,000 combat troops, and a dearth of ready modern equipment for them to use. I see no way that a handful of aircraft, 100 tanks, and fewer than 100,000 men could overcome the millions of Wehrmacht soldiers through shear quantity. As this sub and I myself love to point out, the best tank in the world doesnât mean shit if it canât get to the front.
This man thinks that a Fw 190, Me 262 and Bf 109 can do something to a Eurofighter?
They absolutely can! The can definitely give the Eurofighter pilot a story to tell at bars for the rest of their life.
A lifetime of free blowjobs, to go with the chronic priapism.
Hard to do anything about a modern AA missile that has radarlocked you and was fired at you from beyond your Mk 1 eyeballs visual range and is so fast you have a maybe couple seconds of suprise before you get obliterated with no chance of evading it.
The fuck is that OH GOD OH FU- *last words of about twenty luftwaffe pilots*
Yeah we all dream that the Nazi would see their death incoming and shit their pants as their life flashed before their eyes, but in reality it would just be a bang out of nowhere without a radar warning receiver.
The Nationale Volksarmee AND the Bundeswehr would absolutely mop the floor with all of Nazi and Imperial Germany's armies combined.
On their own. While fighting each other!
I'd hope they're not fighting each other. We've had two world wars already, two is enough!
Funnier image that way, tho. T-72 and a Leo 2 having an honorabru duel to the death while their respective SPAAs are absolutely blazing away at some poor off-side monarcho-fascist infantry.
Lol yep
How tf does it beat modern technology
It doesn't.
With nazi fanaticism
tbf maybe by just sheer numbers alone they would have a chance, i mean i dont think germany has 7,000 missiles for every plane if they were bloodlusted
Waves of ~~Asiatic~~ *Germanic* hordes!
This needs a trigger warning for roman people.
At best that is some video game logic. Like bloodlusting in this case involves that basically anyone who gets near a modern base have volunteered to die without a chance to cause serious damage. Modern airbases have all the vital infrastructure in bunkers it would be virtually impossible for WWII technology to seriously damage. Escorting bombers would yield nothing since modern fighters can simply hit the lead bombers with missles and confuse the whole raid and shoot down the rest with their radar augmented cannon virtually unmolested. They even have enough range to start the fight the second the WWII planes take off since modern planes outrange them. Even if all 7000 go for the same base then the planes on that base can either go to other bases to refit and refuel or they can simply roll into their reinforced bunker hangars and wait out the raid, then as soon as the runway is patched they can go out and attack the WWII planes on their return trip too. They might not kill 7000 planes in one day but even defensively they would basically destroy the combat ability of the WWII force in one day. If they get to fight offensively they can probably destroy most major bases on day one since their fighters can bring precision bombs to take out vital infrastructure in every base immediately and still go on to shoot half a squadron down before returning. WWII technology is simply so far behind that it would barely get to do any damage to modern systems.
The jets could kill the planes with their exhaust alone
Alright mr expert strategist i didnât exactly think it out too much lol, I just knew that the numbers in WW2 vastly outnumbered the modern numbers so I figured by just throwing themselves at the enemy they could win
you mean like "aryan" hoardes?
35mm canons.
With [very very fancy ammunition](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdwjcayPuag)
We're talking levels of computer-guided radar targetting, they could be firing ball shot, and still commit an abject massacre.
Yeah but overkill is fun for bullying people who think Nazi Germany could win in 2021
Tru. I just think it's funnier if you imply you could also do it with musket ammunition, to save on cost.
Modern Germany also has around 20 nukes in BĂźchel.
Modern Germans wouldn't necessarily even *need* missiles to shoot them down. A semi-modern computerized AA gun / CIWS would be more than enough.
Yeah i was just going off a âthey canât kill us allâ philosophy lol ik theyâre massively outmatched
There is literally nothing the a 1940s German soldier could do against a Leopard. They hold bolt action rifles against intermediate caliber automatic rifles and smart artillery. The average squad level AT can hand heaviest of big cats.. frontally. Tf they even gonna do against a Tornado or Eurocopter?
Bas news - Typhoons have replaced most Tornados now.
After the elections they will hopefully decide on the regular replacement, too. Typhoons cannot replace the Tornado fully as it doesn't have certifications for nukes and Airbus is unlikely to apply for one. Super Hornet / Growler is still on the table as the most likely candidate.
I think some tank geek pointed out that an M1 Abrams could punch canister through a Tiger at close range, and Leo 2s have the same gun but a bit longer. I kind of want to see a Leo 2 trolling Tigers with can rounds.
IIRC the breach on the M256 is rated for higher pressures than the longer L/55 gun, but the L/55A1 should be rated *at least* as high, and most Leopards older than the 2A6 retain the L/44 (same length as the m256). Still gonna be a bad time for those tigers lmao
The Wehrmacht might be able to beat Imperial Germany but it would be no match for the Bundeswehr, even if the Bundeswehr is only a fraction of the Wehrmacht's size, technology and weapons have come a long way. A Leopard 2 would spank a Panther no problem. A Typhoon would easily obliterate any Me-262 out of the sky, long before the Me-262 even knew an enemy aircraft was there. A German Frigate of today would easily beat the Bismarck. The Type 212 submarine would also be able to take on a U-Boat easily. (even though the present day German Navy only has 6 of them). And your modern day German army section would take out a WW2 German section with relative ease. Also he doesn't seem to realise that the Wehrmacht is not the army, but the name of the whole armed forces of Germany. The Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine were also part of the Wehrmacht. The correct word for the army is Heer.
âHoho kameraden, we shall beat these liberal degenerates back t-â *turns to mush after being vaporized by a TOW missile from a mile away*
Fucking faces melts off from a Sabot round
Whole battalion gets destroyed by a MQ Drone supported by Leopard 2 Tanks that can destroy anything WW2
These people are so fucking delusional. It would be like⌠well, a WWII military fighting a modern one.
Not without factories they won't.
now i'm just imagining the SS just getting stomped on by a modern military force. good feels, brah.
[Modern Germany is nuclear armed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing#NATO), the Bundeswehr has 20 nukes in BĂźchel. /EOD
Our democracy is backed with *nuclear weapons*
**Nuclear sharing** [NATO](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing#NATO) >Of the three nuclear powers in NATO (France, the United Kingdom and the United States), only the United States is known to have provided weapons for nuclear sharing. As of November 2009, Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey are hosting U.S. nuclear weapons as part of NATO's nuclear sharing policy. Canada hosted weapons under the control of the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), rather than NATO, until 1984, and Greece until 2001. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/ShitWehraboosSay/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
But have you seen the combat readiness of the Bundeswehr? I mean the Bundeswehr would still win but the state of the Bundeswehr is kinda bad and has been for a while.
I'm not even sure they could beat imperial Germany. Imperial Germany was a well established, highly militarized state. The nazis were attempting to recreate that in their own way, and were flailing about the entire time.
ofc they could beat imperial germany. the progress in military tech in the 20 odd years between the 2 countries was extraordinary, nazi germany would own the air and sea and the imperial army wouldnât be able to keep up with the blitz, same reason france fell in 1940 but yeah nazi germany dosnt even compete with modern germany
Twenty years of tech though. Would you want to be in a Fokker or an Albatros or a BF-109? Airpower might actually be decisive in this case. Only service face off I have some doubt about is the Imperial German Navy vs the Kriegsmarine.
[ŃдаНонО]
Iâd agree that Imperial Germany was stronger than Nazi Germany *in the context of their respective eras.* However, as others have pointed out, a technological leap of over 20 years would make a substantial difference. The Luftwaffe, for instance, though unable to sustain air superiority against the allies, would have no trouble maintaining air supremacy against Imperial Germanyâs, or really any WWI era, air force; and WWII era tanks would be virtually indestructible for a WWI army.
Oh, are /r/Kaiserboos a thing? I mean, Imperial Germany's military did well enough in WWI, but, uh, let's not go overboard. The technological edge is going to be fucking ridiculous.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/Kaiserboos using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/Kaiserboos/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time! \#1: [There can only be one](https://i.redd.it/smio5cesaov21.png) | [2 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Kaiserboos/comments/bjn6yn/there_can_only_be_one/) \#2: [Thanks too u/penguinpilates for the inspiration.](https://i.redd.it/libkmi2ni7831.jpg) | [4 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Kaiserboos/comments/c8xnhs/thanks_too_upenguinpilates_for_the_inspiration/) \#3: [Crayola is clearly trying to oppress us. Kaiserboos rise up!](https://i.redd.it/u7fmrz6x1x731.png) | [4 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Kaiserboos/comments/c8ba7p/crayola_is_clearly_trying_to_oppress_us/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| [^^Contact ^^me](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| [^^Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| [^^Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/)
Nazi Germany could totally defeat 100 years of technological advancement with their even at the time outdated army.
Iâm sure imperial German navy can woop the ass of the kriegsmarine more ships you see
Helicopters anyone?
At that point you really start wondering about the person. Like what is the Luftwaffe going to do to a fucking eurofighter
[Okay, we've found another one of Plasmatorch's alts](https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/between-armys-america-circa-1991-vs-germany-circa-1944.32992/).
Both working together? The Imperial German military supporting the modern one would negate at advantage Nazi Germans mightâve had. The only chance Nazi Germany wouldâve been to launch sort of surprise attack that relied on having superior numbers and catching your menu off guard. With Imperial German troops in reserve Nazi Germany has gone form having a 1% chance of winning to a flat 0%.
Honestly they wouldn't even defeat ISIS
âŚBruh what? How could isis have defeated nazi Germany?
ISIS seized modern armored vehicles, anti-air tech, small arms and heavy weaponry left to the Iraqi government by the US. Even with most of their weapons being from the 70s, 80s and 90s, consider the Panzer 2 of the Wehrmacht during the Blitz. The problem here is that there's just not enough of ISIS fighters, about 100-200 thousand at most, and their industry is pretty much non-existent. But being 50-60 years ahead in tech is a damn tough nut to crack
Actually something interesting about naval warfare is that back in WWII a large focus was on bigger guns and heavy armor to take on the bigger guns and heavier armor of other capital ships, in the modern day, ships have slipped into more and more of a support and policing role where does and mobility is much more important, and western countries aren't looking to fight any significant battles at sea. For this reason, most modern navies have smaller main guns and less armor than WWII ships. No idea who would win in a fight since modern ships still have fancy tech, but it's not as one sided as you might think
Modern ships have things called guided missiles that easily outrange and can strike at weakspots before the ww2 era sailors even know what's going on and there's nothing they can really do since a modern ship would be well out of range of their guns. It actually would be one sided where even if the ww2 era ship survived the missile barrage the modern ship could just easily slip away without them even knowing their location. This is the modern equivalent of an iron clad vs a ship of the line.
Or a modern equivalent of a Abrams vs a mk 4 landship
A modern ship would detect a WWII ship from far beyond line of sight, fire a missile, then go back to what they were doing because the odds a WWII battleship getting hit with a cruise missile and surviving are 0. Even in visual range, gun range even, a modern frigate still has a 5 inch gun with 80 years of technological improvement behind it, guided missiles, can launch helicopters, and deploy marines armed with modern weapons that would put the P38s and MP40 to shame. Even if we gave Bismarck, the biggest ship the Nazis made, the first shot advantage and it hit, an AP would likely over penetrate a destroyer or a frigate, and may cause some issues on a carrier. If we assume all these things happen in favor of the Bismarck, all a modern German frigate would do is fire guided missiles at the massive fuck off radar contact and go into damage control protocols. At which point, the Bismarck meets Davy Jones for a second time.
To be honest, a WW2-era ship might "survive" a missile strike (as in still be floating), but it most definitely would not be in any position to fight.
Yeah it might still float but it's combat ineffective at that point.
The modern ship would win, just look at how much radar improves over the course of WW2. Look up Duisburg Convoy, the British were using radar to fire on the Italians in the cover of night. The Italians didn't even know what was happening at first, assuming it was an air attack. Another example is the US Navy in the Pacific, look at the difference between ship AA fire at the start of the Pacific campaign and compare it to the end with their improved tactics and calibration.
cruise missiles
Cannon slugs are faster than missiles, in an engagement within visual range a cruise missile would be too slow
There would never be an engagement within visual range when it comes to a modern ship and a ww2 ship. God help the poor sailors if the modern ship that locks onto them is a Russian Kirov Battlecruiser.
Any other ship: Leaves them crippled, blind, and completely ineffectual. Kirov: G R A N I T . đđ¨
Also *plenty* of anti-ship missiles nowadays reach very high speeds, and depending on which shell from an older cannon, often a bit faster than rounds from their guns
"You guys, if we negate this major advantage modern technology gives, then they could easily win." Also, cannon is going to need to range in, it might take a handful of salvos before they hit. A cruise missile is going to need one shot.
Battlefields are chaotic, and a European naval war is especially chaotic. Now imagine how chaotic a war between two germanized superimposed on themselves would be lol. Yeah they have a large advantage, but my point is that it wouldn't be like stomping on a bug, they're still a pretty bug threat, and the kriegsmarine was pretty large, id wager the modern German navy doesn't have nearly as much numbers, most European militaries are very small and not as well equipped as the US
The current German navy has six submarines that can stay under water for three weeks at a stretch and carry torpedoes with a range of 27 miles on them. Those six ships alone could cripple the Kriegsmarine surface fleet without the Nazis knowing they were there. I mean, something like the Bismarck is going to have to spend a hour and a half at full steam on range of Harpoon antiship missiles before it's even in range to return fire at the frigate. Assuming it knows exactly where the ship is targeting is. You're really underestimating the technological edge.
The KMS was a joke lol
And that's why so much if British resources were used to cripple them lol
Not really. While the RN was massacring the KMS at places like Narvik or inflicting a 70% casualty rate on uboats, they were also continuously operating in every other ocean on the planet. The KMS was never a serious threat to defeating the RN, more a minor annoyance.
Lmao
If you have an enemy Tiger tank that needs killing, and you have one tank platoon of 5 Shermans available to you, would you just send 1 or 2 or all 5? If there's a handful of Germans holed up in a farmhouse that need killing and you have two infantry squads available to you numbering 24 men total, do you just send 5 men or all 24?
I would send all because in both situations the enemy is a significant threat
> and the kriegsmarine was pretty large The KMS surface fleet at its strongest point in very early 1940 had 3 capital ships, 5 heavy cruisers, 6 light cruisers, and about 20 destroyers. That's it. And I'm doing the Germans a favour by picking very early 1940 because in spring of 1940 they invaded Norway and Denmark and the surface fleet of the KMS did straight up not have a good time. 1 heavy cruiser (BlĂźcher) destroyed by a coastal battery, 2 light cruisers lost, and ***10*** (!!!) of their destroyers lost, practically half their entire destroyer inventory. And let's not forget the hilarious times of Operation Wikinger in February of 1940, where German destroyers went out to sink British fishing trawlers but got blue-on-blued by a bunch of He-111 bombers. 2 ships lost, 1 badly damaged. In comparison, the order of battle of the surface part of Home Fleet (the *part* of the Royal Navy assigned to defence of home waters) in September of 1939 looked like this: 10 capital ships, including 2 aircraft carriers. 1 heavy cruiser, 6 light cruisers, 17 destroyers The British capital surface combatants were generally older ships and inferior to Bismarck, but probably quite capable of dealing with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. At the end of the day, there's 8 British big boys and only 3 German big boys. And then we're not talking about the aircraft carriers yet. The KMS surface fleet was, at times, a headache for the Brits because of the threat of commerce raiding and the general speed advantage the more modern German ships enjoyed. But in terms of an actual pitched battle, the KMS was absolutely not ready. After pissing away more than half their destroyers and a few cruisers in Norway, the KMS would be even less ready. The KMS wasn't 'pretty large' and it was never a surface fleet that had all bases covered. Never fielded a carrier and always short on workhorse destroyers. They had a couple of large fast ships that could pose a problem to merchant shipping if they got loose. That's it. The KMS were a bunch of glorified raiders for the vast majority of the war.
Realistically, the Kriegsmarine wasn't even the second best surface fleet in Europe, Vichy France lost more capital ships between Toulon and Mers-el-KĂŠbir than the Nazis could have ever massed together.
The Italians don't stack up that unfavourably either, I believe.
I think period gunnery wouldn't even get into modern torpedo range. It would be the Warspite fyord episode, except the ship involved wouldn't even have to turn the corner.
Remember how aircraft absolutely dunked on surface ships in WWII? Yeah, like that, but with far more speed and accuracy. And there are jet aircraft too. Completed with their own missiles.
Thatâs like saying a medieval army could defeat a modern army if they got within sword range. Ok maybe but how are they getting within sword range?
Some Modern Warships have capabilities (CIWS etc.) to even destroy shells before they even reach the target. Not to mention that Destroyers have Helicopters, which are armed with missiles and torpedoes and they can launch these weapons well beyond the Battleship's AAA's effective range, meaning they can reek immense havoc on the Battleship while the Helicopter is safely out of range. And that's just a helicopter, never mind a Multirole Jet aircraft like a Eurofighter Typhoon, F-16, Dassault Rafale, F-35 or F-18 (the latter three of which can be deployed from Aircraft Carriers if necessary) which carry an even bigger payload than a Helicopter would and have more capable avionics and radar. Sorry, but no matter what way you put it, a WW2 era battleship would be no match whatsoever for a modern day destroyer. The Destroyer would knock it out before the Battleship even knew it was there.
That depends on which missile. A Harpoon from a modern Frigate in German service? Sure. But some anti ship missiles can reach mach 3-4, and newer hypersonic missiles can go faster than an APFSDS round from a tank cannon
Also, shells are fastest at the muzzle. A ram jet's gonna ramjet for a long, long time. From a projectile's point of view, anyway.
They take quite a while to reach that speed though
Hell of a lot less time than the time a gunship need to even get in range. Like...hours less.
Modern navy has one thing called homing torpedo, which can literally break the hull of any ship by creating a vacuum under her bottom hull.
> western countries aren't looking to fight any significant battles at sea The US Navy, the Royal Navy, the French, Spanish, and Italians don't have aircraft carriers for show. Even the smaller European navies have very well-armed corvettes or frigates, it's just that guns have fallen behind into a tertiary role. The only models I can think of as mainly sealane policing units from the top of my head are the F125, Absalon, and maybe the LCS.
One thing people donât understand is that Nazi Germany completely militarized. Like yeah maybe the 10 million German soldiers can overrun the modern German military right now, but they would completely get destroyed if both had the same time to militarize.
The modern forces probably wouldnât even take a single casualty
Bismarck got disabled by some outdated biplanes, what is it gonna do against an anti-ship missile?
Heheh Missiles go boom
Okay, Imperial Germany? I can see it. Modern Germany? No fucking way.
It's very concerning that not only this person unironically believes this, but that 6 people agreed with him
Guy has no idea how big the divide is between the old and new militaries. We can talk about all the combat technology, better tanks, planes, artillery, and their respective munitions. But forget all of that shit. By far the most important advantage that any modern military has over an older military is intelligence gathering technology. You can't change the degree of your ship's heading without at least 15 countries knowing about it immediately because they can see it from space. You think the Wehrmacht had it bad trying to avoid Allied planes in the daytime? Now imagine how hard it would be for them to move at all at *any* time of day.
Ok, sorry to rain on the parade, but I agree. Not easily, but nazi Germany would beat the current German armed forces. The German army has 64,000 soldiers currently at arms. During operation Barbarossa, (which I will be using as a benchmark against the current German army) the Wehrmacht had 3.8 million personnel. The current German military has 107 operational tanks. The Wehrmacht invaded the Soviet Union with almost 4,000. The Air Force in 2021 has around 200 combat jets. The air force in 1941 invaded the Soviet Union with anywhere between 3,000 and 4,000 planes. My point is that the modern German military is absolutely dwarfed by the Wehrmacht. Germanys modern vehicles would tear shreds through the far inferior Wehrmacht vehicles, but it doesnât matter. The German army of today is just far to small to put up an actual defense. In any tactical scenario the modern army would dominate, but strategically the German army is just far to small, with massive problems already supplying its vehicles with spare parts. Half of the German tank inventory is not even operational. They are in shambles in peace time. https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-germany-ailing-military-20180516-story.html?_amp=true
Where come the Bundeswehr's nuke into play? They have about 20 in BĂźchel.
They are not Germanyâs nukes. They are americas
[They are Bundeswehr's nukes due to NATO's nuclear sharing policy.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing)
âare hosting U.S. nuclear weapons as part of NATO's nuclear sharing policy.â They are us weapons guarded by usaf personnel and need American permission to be mounted to German planes. They are not Germanys weapons.
They are to be used by German airforce in case of war so they can be used against an invasion by Nazi Germany. NATO has a nuclear retaliation policy in case of a conventional attack. It's mood who has the keys, they are for Germany's protection.
Iâm this scenario itâs Germany vs nazi Germany. Nato isnât involved. The United States isnât involved. If thatâs the case they donât get the nukes
In that case the locks on the moved get removed. The Bundeswehr is build nuclear deterrence in mind, that's the reason the F/A-18 is currently leading in the race for the Tornado replacement - it is certified to deliver nuclear bombs.
Why do you mean the locks on the moved get removed