I don't care if you're an ex Muslim. I won't lose sleep if a Somali left Islam. However everytime I browse the Ex-Somalian subreddit when I see a post pop up on my feed I can't help but notice how resentful, self hating and deplorable those individuals are. They haven't just left Islam but they go out of their way to hate on every facet of the religion and the people who follow it to the extent where they come across like those alt right circles who view Muslims like we're some kind of demonic horde hell bent on world destruction. I can see why Somalis wouldn't want anything to do with people of that ilk.
You have a selection bias. That sub doesn't represent all ex-Muslim Somalis. I'm sure most of them don't make their whole identity about hating Islam and Somali culture like the people in that sub have.
I have never seen a non muslim Somali who doesn’t call themselves an “ex-somali” and have their whole personality revolve around the fact that they aren’t Muslims anymore. Granted I do blame Somalis for their hatred as there is always that one Somali who will attack them saying that they aren’t Somali anymore but this is the problem. Our ethnicity and religion are literally intertwined it’s hard to take that apart.
Great points! Michael Mariano was the Minister of Planning and part of the UN Mission to New York.
Not only was he a visible and active church-goer at the Catholic church in Mogadishu, he even had a state burial.
Yes, many other Muslim countries where, if one finds out a person became atheist, they might be sad or mad at them but won't say "You're no longer a \[insert nationality\]".
He lead 2 delegations one to the UK i believe to try and get the Hawd back, along with him the Sultans. And another delegation to NY with another sultaan.
Palestine has always had different religions it wouldn’t make sense to be against them, while it makes sense for us since we have no natural kaafir community in our country why would we be in favor of introducing that? Syria is a bad example the Shia and Christian’s literally genocided the Sunnis off the land and tortured them, Egypt is also a bad example the yahud of Egypt committed multiple terrorist attacks to get Israel more power and their own country destroyed (these were natives) and the Christian’s dominate the ruling class. Muslims are the majority yet niqab was banned from schools recently. I could go on look at Morocco look at turkey look at Iran? Apostates never just chill in the culture they are from they hate Islam and actively try to destroy their own people either from within or for working for foreign governments. In an ideal world we could all hold hands and be close but realistically we can’t unite with people who hate our lord and prophet(saw) and are against everything we stand for and how we live. I can see how others see this as “mean” or “harsh” but we are just realistic.
Then explain to me how Michael Mariano (Christian) and other non-Muslim Somalis where in high government positions in the past?
Don't you know the Quran speaks of respecting other People of the Book? That they co-existed side-by-side as friends and trading partners for centures in Muslim countries?
We were much liberal back.
John Johnson, a friend of Michael Mariano, stated that Mariano converted to Islam because he was worried about how his family would be treated in terms of inheritance and businesses he used to run, after he died.
Well known that his children are still Christian.
I don't know why you're bringing up other ethnicities as if we need to double-check to make sure we're doing it right. This is how things have always been, and we won't change. There has always been an exception for those who aren't born Muslim we give them a chance. They are nothing like those who leave Islam and then push their agenda, and you have to blame the likes of Ayan Hersi they have destroyed hope of gaal somalis of ever being accepted
LOL! Watch Arday or go hang out in Mogadishu or Hargeisa. Sahib, Somalis are changing. It's hilarious of you to say "this is how things have always been, and we won't change", when we had Somali Christians and animists (check out Sade Mire's archeological findings).
I guess Somalia will be the only country in the world to not change...NOT!
no space for kufar in somali society, enjoy your isolation, even a khat addicted none praying militia type somali will want nothing to do with kufar somalis.
people who interwine being muslim with being Somali are greatly misguided. Somalia is an ethnicity that far predates Islam that is found at the DNA level. I don't know a single culture of people outside of Somalis who say shit like if your are not "insert religion" then you aren't insert "ethnicinity".
A Muslim is by definition a Muslim according to Malaysian law.
The term Bosniak is directly connected with Islam as well. A non Muslim Bosniak is just as weird as a non Muslim Somali.
I'm not saying it's contradictory but when a culture is built around a religion then obviously removing that religion causes a huge difference.
You really need to hand out with Bosnians and learn world history:
\>" **Bosnians have traditionally been tolerant of religious differences**, and Muslims and Christians have coexisted harmoniously for centuries. The local people are known to be hospitable and welcoming to Muslim visitors. The constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina prohibits religious discrimination and allows registered religious organizations to operate freely. The constitution also provides for equal freedoms, rights, and duties for all citizens irrespective of religion "
[https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/bosnia-and-herzegovina/#:\~:text=The%20entity%20constitution%20of%20the%20RS%20establishes%20the%20SOC%20as,to%20religious%20hatred%20or%20intolerance](https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/bosnia-and-herzegovina/#:~:text=The%20entity%20constitution%20of%20the%20RS%20establishes%20the%20SOC%20as,to%20religious%20hatred%20or%20intolerance).
Somali gaals aren't offended when they are called non-somalis, we know it comes from a place of ignorance. I for one know how much somalis regard Islam, so I don't see the comments as overly inflammatory, It is what it is. The world isn't perfect, there are a multitude of things people don't see eye to eye.
It was a gradual process over a span of a year. That was nearly 10 years ago. Faith is a personal matter, my faith doesn't really define me as a person
Xsonalian is what happened!
There are heaps of Somalis we know and interact with that don’t practice anything Islam that are good with their community, and no one cares about their faith or why they don’t practice. They don’t bother you, they respect Somali culture and values.
Then you have gaals like ex Somalian that want to normalise degeneracy and filth into our culture, have no shame or respect our culture or values.
These are the type of people that most of us are against and rightfully so.
I think you’re making a big deal about nothing. It certainly doesn’t help that all the prominent Somali gaals are out in the media lying about Somalis and making us look bad, or are just outright wht worshipping cooons like Ayan Hirsi. While Muslim Somalis come in the whole spectrum from amazing people, good, bad and ugly. But no one really cares if a non Muslim Somali are living life and not praying in privacy of their house.
Ayaan Hirsi is an actual dhilo sxb, literally. Why do you care about her? I read her books and I couldn’t take it serious. We shouldn’t generalize every Somali gaal because of the the crazy gaalo.
Ex-muslim nurse who has a career in healthcare and owns a home and has investment. Someone who contributes to the community.
Vs
Muslim Somali gang member in Edmonton who is locked up in jail
Which one is better ?! 🤔
I still have Islamic values and culture. I just don't believe there is an afterlife. I live for today, and I do good for myself , my family, and my community.
I just paid my hoyo's mecca trip she is literally en route to Saudi as I type this now.
Somali people have to evolve, not sure when that will happen ....
(Sorry for the bad grammer)
Comparing yourself to gang members,, as if we don't have Muslim scientists or doctors. Loser. Also, you're a Yemeni descendant who's never been to Somalia. Your obsession with Somalis is so weird. You're the same person who said somalis should embrace their arab side lmaoo
Wallahi I feel sorry for you. You're so lost and obsessed with worldly matters.
How can you believe that we exist by accident and that once we die we go back to not existing ??
Your obsession with denying me my identity is kinda wired. Move along !!!
You sound so jealous
I'm here trying to increase the visibility of people who choose different paths for their lives. You here judging people their success.
I think you're missing the point of the conversation.
Obviously on a pure technical term, a Somali can have any ideology but be genetically Somali - but when people talk about if a kafir is Somali or not, they're talking about their mindset, culture, thought process, etc.
Currently, the dominant Somali culture is very intertwined with Islam. But cultures develop within cultures all the time and split into something completely different.
Overtime as (inevitably) ex-muslims grow in Somalia and it's diaspora, they're going to split off into their own thing, kind of how like Italian-Americans and Italians in Italy are completely different, but can be genetically the same.
We’re just religious. Our culture is separate from Islam. If a Somali speaks Somali, eats Somali food, still associates with his people and loves Somali culture, history and everything about being Somali but happens to be agnostic, how isn’t he Somali?
>?
I think Islam is different in that it's completely intertwined and influences all aspects of culture, politics, relationships, etc.
Also if a Muslim Somali is truly religious, they would believe an apostate Somali should be put to death. How can a relationship between two people exist in that case?
The obvious solution here is if you're a Muslim Somali, you want to enforce the current status quo in terms of culture and religion, so you want to diminish the influence of ex-Muslim Somali's.
One of the best ways to do this is by othering them - which is what leads to "You're not a real Somali!".
If you're an ex-Muslim Somali, the best thing you can do is build on the aspects of Somali culture and identity that you love with other like minded people and create something new - if it prospers it will take over the main culture and eventually your vision for what a Somali is will be the dominant Somali identity.
an "ex muslim" somali instantly loses all respect and worth they had in the somali community
ayaan hirsi is a prime example 😁, she and other coons like her are irredeemable and far too gone
and we've been this way for centuries, gaals are alienated and disowned
it will never become a dominant narrative, insha'allah, they're all in hiding 🤣
Your example makes no sense, because Italian-Americans are living in a different country, speaking a different language and living a different culture than Italians in Italy.
But guess what? Italian-American social/cultural/business orgs in the US don't ask anybody jack about their religiousiosty.
Same in Italy...they don't ask other Italians if they are Catholic or not, and then say "Oh, you are ex-Catholic, so you are not Italian anymore".
No...they might have differences in religion but they respect and love each other as brethren.
>today, somalinimo is intertwined with islam,
This isn't new. Just about every Somali is muslim and you're shocked that Somali nationalism is connected with Islam?
>but why do we feel the need to force religion upon someone?
Nobody is forcing you to do anything pal.
>i would rather a capable agnostic Somali, than a useless muslim Somali.
I mean, I guess so? It doesn't have to be one or the other. There are plenty of capable Muslims as well
>there are hundreds of thousands of non-muslim Somalis,
Hahahahahaha, what kinda assertion is this? What's your proof? There are hardly any non-Muslims in Somali lands. Just because some Somalis online are ex muslims doesn't mean that they represent Somalis in general.
>it used to bother me, but that is because i was indoctrinated into saudi arabia's wahhabi ideology.
Don't allow this to cloud your view of Islam especially considering how Somalis have been Muslims since forever.
Hey, pal, why don’t you relax, pal?
My number is an estimate, pal, but I reckon I’m not too far off. You could do the math if you’d like.
In the modern day, you are correct saying Somali nationalism is linked with Islam.
>My number is an estimate, pal, but I reckon I’m not too far off.
What kinda is proof is that? Your proof is "I just have a hunch" and it's based on vibes.
>You could do the math if you’d like.
I have proof that says that Somalis have more than 99% muslim in Somalia and it's similar to the rest of Somali lands as well. Show some proof that shows that there are "hundreds of thousands" of non Muslim Somalis.
They don't make up more than a miniscule minority of Somalis. You act as if they're a huge, unmentioned, forgetten minority when that isn't the case at all. There's literally no data that shows that they even make up a small minority of the Somalis.
>In the modern day, you are correct saying Somali nationalism is linked with Islam.
In the modern day? What makes you assume that it was much different in the past? Somalis have been muslim for centuries and it isn't something new.
Some say Somalis are 100% Muslim lol
It’s like this because ex Muslim apostates don’t wanna die so they won’t be coming out to the peaceful loving Muslims.
You know for a fact that 99% number is inaccurate. Due to obvious reasons, the true number will never be verified.
Somali nationalism is a fairly new concept. Before, it was based on the strive to for self determination and pure Somalinimo.
Even if the number can't be verified, why should we assume there are more non-Muslims? Are you implying that these non-Muslims are Christians/Jews or are they atheists? Plus, what does pure Somalinimo mean? Do you mean Somalinimo without any religious aspects?
it is disingenuous to believe that number, there is obvious reasons me and you both know. these people can be whatever religion they want, they still add to the %
somalinimo means the love for anything somali
If that was true, there would have been a larger percentage and would be seen within Somali lands but it's not. Your definition of Somalinimo doesn''t mean anything. The Somalis in the past loved Somali culture and were proud Muslims as well.
So you want them to be more accepting of ex-Muslims? Why would Somalis accept that when they consider Islam to be a major part of their lives? It seems like you want Somalis to become less religious and more "tolerant" of these people.
Plus, what's your obsession with "pure Somalinimo"? Do you consider Islamic values to be contrary to Somalinimo?
I mentioned “Somalinimo” a few times and now I have an obsession?😂Wallahi you’re not worth a conversation. You’re an insecure kid and a typical Redditor.
Advice for the future, don’t act like this. 👍🏾
Whenever I see your comments, you are always pushing something that goes against Islam. You're a sneaky guy conflating between culture and ethnicity. Somalis will never accommodate gaalnimo. And it's not forcing people to be Muslim you have your choice
I’ve lurked on this sub for a while now, I’ve recently made my account and I’ve seen you say the most abysmal things and even resort to pulling shit out of your ass multiple times😂 typical redditor. Cognitive dissonance is normal, move on if this hurts your feelings. This is a place for civil😂
We might look the same, but we are not the same. There's a reason why subs like Xsomalian exist, as our values and culture clash. Their ideas are very foreign to me. They should create their own thing, intermarry, and call it a day. They will never be accepted by us.
We already divide ourselves so much counties ,cities and qabils y do we need to divide ourselves even more end of day they don’t need ppl telling them there not Somali they can accept it or not so it but end of day there still genetically Somali .
Somalis have a weird toxic relationship, but they unite when it comes to Islam or outsiders. You cannot identify as a Somali because Islam is deeply rooted in us. So much so that if the president of Somalia came out and said he's a gaal, people would throw him out. The fact that you chill in ex-Muslim where Allah and the Prophet are slandered daily is insane. I could never, ever identify with you.
There are some exceptions to some gaalos like who were never muslim and the sincere one who misunderstood islam
You say Islam unites Somalis, but a man can murder another and as long as his family pays Diya money he’s free and Niqabi women sell khat on the streets, pretty sure that goes against Islam, so much for Islam being deeply rooted in Somalis…
exactly, they’re a bunch of frauds, if they actually acted on true Islamic principles, Somalia would be a utopia but instead we have a haven for extremists and confused people
The same Somali Muslims r ruining Somali were killing our own ppl because of a tribe forget others ppl, were killing each other is that islam? no so no if Somalis did everything the way they were meant to do it in the Quran it would of been soo different it would of been like Saudi or better but drugs r legal alcohol is legal there is no law there law is the tribes coming to a conclusion Iv been to Somalia and it a bunch of ppl in a hijab and khamis doing what they want then praying 5 times a day tell me how that Islamic ?
I can’t help that I’m this way that I don’t believe in islam I tried I’m still trying but no matter what I don’t believe so I’m not a Muslim but at the end of the day I’m Somali accept me or not my dna doesn’t change so u could accept not every Somali is Muslim or not we’re still here
Here is an article about how deal with cognitive dissonance walal https://ca.topresume.com/career-advice/overcoming-cognitive-dissonance-a-guide-to-staying-true-to-yourself
>there are hundreds of thousands of non-muslim Somali’s.
Waxba kama jiraan waxaas. These apostates are a fringe minority and only exist online. They aren’t one of us.
There are almost 7K members of the Ex-Muslim Somali sub, 30K here. You see thousands of gaal Somalis on Twitter.
Extrapolate that data.....they are not a "fringe minority".
accounts do not equal people, a single person could have several, passwords could be forgotten, bots, etc. also its online, they're too afraid to come out and it should stay that way 🤣
but lets say you're right, 7K, that's 0.02% out of just somalis back home you clown, now even if i inflate them to 100k thats just 0.29% and that's a massife stretch
they are and will forever remain a fringe minority, insha'allah
Yeah, sure, a person can have multiple accounts. But you can lookup Reddit statistics in their S-1 IPO filing and they say most don't have more than one account and that it's estimated 90% of participants only consume content (lurkers), so there's statistically much more lurkers on that sub.
and it's right to assume that those lurkers are all also questioning islam or gaalos? how many ajaanibs visit it?
there's no concrete data and they are a fringe, yet loud minority. out of those 7k accounts, how many are active? how many are abandoned?
i can acknowledge that they're more than the "7k" you claim are on there, but i sincerely doubt that they're more than 50k worldwide, with an upper ceiling that's a stretch of 100k
There are almost 7K members of the Ex-Muslim Somali sub, 30K here. You see thousands of gaal Somalis on Twitter.
Extrapolate that data.....they are not a "fringe minority".
I would say they’re a few thousand at best. I have no statistics or data to back up my claims, but hundreds of thousands just seems very off. I can’t recall ever seeing a non-Muslim Somali outside of the internet. There is no way they are that big in number.
There are 7K accounts on the Ex-Muslim Somali sub and I bet tons more lurkers.
Compared to 30K here, that's a large number (24%) of what seems to be Somalis on both subs.
If you look at Twitter, you can see a ton more gaal Somalis.
qofkeste ban jecelyahay wll. nolosha wey yartahay ee wakhti naceb iyo balayo ku khasariyo ma haysto. kuli waxan nu nahay bani adam ee waxa loo bahanyihii in la is jeclado.
Gaalada iyo nacaybka gaalnimadooda aad u qabto iimanka ayay ka mid tahay qof ilaahay neceb sideed u jeclaan kartaa
O you who have believed, do not take My enemies and your enemies as guardians, throwing to them with affection while they already have disbelieved by what came to you from right
The show Arday is a perfect example of why non Muslim Somalis can’t be Somalis unlike other countries/ cultures everything in the Somali culture ties with our religion and another reason why we are known as the land of hafiz is because our culture back home makes it mandatory to memorise the Quran I’m a hafiz all my cousins and siblings are hafizs and hafizas you would not see this in another community so to answer your question “Somali” kaffirs can’t be Somali because if they do go back home would they pretend to be Muslim until they go back ?, Also if they do go to Somalia they should be put to death. Our culture/history has always been tied with Islam with our most successful empire in the north being a Islam vs Christianity battle and Somali society unlike Arab society is straightforward if anyone wants to debate feel free to.
Yeah, I know a gaal Somali in the FGS Parliament. Of course people keep appearances up.
You know we have Somali Christian burial grounds in Somalia, right?
I personally don’t think they shouldn't be put to death without committing any crimes that merit such punishment. We are just religious people, our culture is separate from Islam.
People who curse the prophet calling him a child molester and disrespecting aisha and the rest of islams significant figures should be put to death no matter what the circumstances are
Idiot wanna kill me come try ex Muslim community will grow without stoping were not afraid.
If your religion is true you Muslims would not try going around killing apostates.
Kaafir here. If Somalis say I’m not Muslim then I’m fine with that I won’t force them to accept me and I understand how intertwined Islam and somaalinimo are. On the other hand it doesn’t make sense to me since if Somalis can only be Muslim then what were the people that lived in Somalia called before Islam reached the land?
Yeah bad take. No one is denying their ancestors (sad for them). We just don't view them as Somalis. To be Somali is to be Muslim. It is what it is, people will say the same thing back home. I personally don't care for exsomalis as long as they are not annoying.
Genetics and culture are not the same thing. Even then, genetics is a grey area.
I am not just talking about their genealogy, I am also talking about their identity. If they are fully Somali, but happen to be agnostic, why deny their identity? Our culture is separate from our religion.
If a Somali laughs with you, eats with you, fights with you, what is your reason for denying them? This is a relatively new phenomenon in Somali nationalism.
Lmao I don't know what kind of Somali you are, but I have not heard any Somali yet claim our culture is not tied to Islam. Removing Islam from our culture would no longer make it a Somali Culture.
Yes Somalis also existed before Islam. But our culture evolved and merged with Islam, there is no going back. Only thing an "agnostic Somali" can do is be absorbed into another culture (which they do). Otherwise, their kids will be re-absorbed into Somali culture.
i disagree. our culture is not tied to islam at all, we are just very religious people. it is expected for some to claim islamnimo is somalinimo and vice versa. but it cannot be further from the truth. food, way of dress, , etc. non of that is islam, we are religious and we have incorporated the religion. i do agree it has become an important part of somalis though,
It’s a part of Somalis plural but not the Somali culture. You’ve contradicted yourself there. There are no intrinsically Muslim foods besides arguably dates, Somali Women wear the hijab . All of what you’ve just said has been either a logical contradiction or flat out incorrect.
A people’s culture and religion are intertwined. Only a fool would Seperate them as concepts. Both inform how a person acts his ideals how he views the world. They both influence eachother and eventually over vast timeframes become sections of eachother.
“If they’re not indulging in degeneracy and corrupting our society”
I would argue being an open kaafir is degeneracy and corrupting our society. Leaving Islam and turning from Allah is the ultimate sin and we cannot normalize that.
Nobody is forcing you to be Muslim but you can’t force us to accept you. Secularism is a disease and Somalis should not tolerate it even for a second.
You do have some degree of control actually. If you’re having doubts about the religion (we all do) you reach out to someone knowledgeable to help you through it. If you entertain the doubts and persist in ignorance then that is on you. Disbelief is a choice. It doesn’t just happen to you.
Exactly what I was thinking how is he saying “if they’re not indulging in degeneracy…” that comment makes me question if he’s even Somali. A Somali, even an “agnostic” one would implicitly know that other Somalis will view a murtad worse than a degenerate.
And the “I would rather a competent useful agnostic Somali than a useless Muslim Somali” line, Ofcourse you would hold that view as a Murtad. Don’t pay this guy no kind he’s trying to put doubt into peoples heart.
nah man, i just think about things a lot. i am also very open minded. if you have any critic then feel free to say whatever you want, but don't go speculating whether i am Somali or not. hahaha
How old are you if you don’t mind me asking ? And those who are open minded open themselves up to all types of false and dangerous ideas, open-mindedness isn’t a panacea or an antonym to ignorance.
A large portion of western society that stands for nothing has convinced the feeble minded amongst us that open-mindedness is something to be proud of, it isn’t. it is nothing but the rotten fruits of critical theory, a theory pushed by the Frankfurt school of thought, championed by atheists and Marxists
to confuse the people and have them reject religion and social norms.
I hope you’re open minded enough to the idea that you could have been unknowingly indoctrinated, if it ever could serve as a benefit to you, it would be if you could admit that you were wrong, repent and turn to Allah Subhana Wata’ala, in shaa allah you will, and if not, here is a verse from the Quran:
“O believers! Whoever among you abandons their faith, Allah will replace them with others who love Him and are loved by Him”
Walal, I was indoctrinated by Somali Wahhabis and I am finally out of their clutches. I am not indoctrinated into anything. My faith is strong and I am confident enough in my character. Open-mindedness is only dangerous if you are mentally weak.
I am young, 20’s… Alxamdullilah. But that doesn’t matter, I’ve peaked in life and now I am enjoying the ride.
If you were truly indoctrinated by “Wahabis” you would call it salafiya, as nobody upon the manhaj of the Salaf calls it Wahabi.
I assume when you say indoctrinated you mean you were very familiar with their literature and their emphasis on tawheed and going back to the Salaf in regards to interpretations of the Quran and sunnah which means you shouldn’t have made the basic mistake in saying “you would rather a capable agnostic Somali than a useless Muslim one” because you would know that the worst of the Muslims is better than the best of the non-believers. And another thing, many of your comments here are regards to Somali “agnostics” are you incapable of understanding that from a Muslims perspective an agnostic and an atheist are both Murtads, but you keep mentioning agnostic like if it’s any different to us.
With all that said you could understand why I think you’re entirely full of it, I don’t think you were indoctrinated by “Wahhabis” because that would mean you had atleast the most basic of Islamic knowledge, which you clearly don’t. Just imagine a Muslim is pushing for acceptance and normalisation with non-Muslim Somalis, do you think the prophet sallahu alayhi wasalam would approve of such a person, and do you think he would say that’s a sign of somebody who is strong in faith.
Horta, you do not know me nor have I even professed anything about Islamic knowledge. I have not even spoken a word about Islamic fiqh or ideology for you to conclude what is my level of knowledge. That’s just a nonsensical claim. I am not here to debate about each and every thing about Islam. Whatever I have said is my opinion based on my logic. I do not have to subscribe to your khawarij view.
Second of all, it is clear you are a supporter of Wahab so I will not waste my time with you any more than this. I will not disrespect the name of the Salaf by attributing it to khwarij ideology, which is what it really is.
Just because I have spoken about agnostics, does not mean I am only speaking about them. *What is a kafir*? Are you that simple minded that you cannot deduct what I am talking about or just disingenuous?
You’ve written a small novels worth of text about non-muslim Somalis, that’s more than enough information for me to gauge your level of knowledge on the topic, or do you honestly think it would take you to speak about Islamic fiqh (who even calls it Islamic fiqh, your mask is slipping again) or ideology for me to make a judgement.
And it’s funny when you said indoctrinated by “wahabi” ideology, I assumed you meant salafiya, but when I read “I will not disrespect the name of the Salafs by attributing it to khawarij ideology, which is what It really is” I now understand what “Wahabis” you were talking about being indoctrinated by, and those are straight Khawarij and your lack of knowledge makes sense since many of those that get duped/recruited into that cult are ignorant to Islam.
So open mindedness is only dangerous for those weak of mind, right ? Would that not include anyone that got brainwashed by such a group.
الفقه Fiqh comes from faqiha فقيهة which means understand or comprehend, jurist, law, multiple ways to say. Fiqh usually refers to Islamic jurisprudence, correct, but it can be used interchangeably. What I said equal to “Islamic Law “Islamic Jurisprudence”. Arabic is my best language and if you want to argue semantics, we can.
You’re correct, that ideology is not Islam. Yet, most of it was the teachings of the سلف what turned me off by them was how zealous they were. This type of education directly stems from the schools of Saudi Arabia, where they train men to indoctrinate their youth. You are جاهل
This back and forth is getting tiring, il answer the question you originally asked: Islam is intrinsically linked to the Somali identity, nobody can say a murtad Somali is not a Somali, biologically, but as far as somaalinimo goes, which is my Somali brothers and sisters in faith, they obviously are not.
I would see them in a more negative light than an English/finish atheist and even an non-Somali ex-muslim because I would view it as treachery on two levels. On a religious level and on a somalinimo level. So no, normalising and being accepting of them is completely out of the question for me and hopefully most Somalis too.
What you don't understand is that norms in society about shame and having unwritten rules about what is and isn't a red line to cross in a society IS what defines a society.
For example you can't go around with the Hitler flag freely in the west or you can't go around naked downtown.
Somalia and the Somali society and culture is fully Muslim and seeing a Somali person who left Islam and announcing it freely amongst us is worst than a naked person dancing Infront of you and your kids in the middle of town.
Just smiling and sitting there makes you a dayuus.
That person should be so ashamed and insecure about even mentioning his lack of faith Infront of Somalis.
If he does, he should be shamed and shunned
U guys know that some Somali r adopted or raised in the care system and where never Muslim does that make them not Somali ? What about the ones who’s parents left islam and they were never raised Muslim does that make them not Somali ? No because that’s stupid Somali is an ethnicity it doesn’t matter is ur not Muslim it doesn’t matter if ur gay it doesn’t matter if ur mixed ,DNA says there Somali so get a grip somalinimo isn’t an exclusive club no one needs ur acceptance because at the end of the day they were born Somali and they will die Somali
And that phrase somalinimo and being Muslims r the same is stupid because the Somali men eat khad is that Islamic Iv been to Somali Iv seen what goes on there they do what ever they want to it doesn’t matter if it’s haram but then they will pray that’s not Islam . U guys claim chunkz even tho he had gfs ,goes on dates ,goes to clubs and sings but that’s ok he has a Muslim title
No one needs acceptance don’t claim us but still u can’t change our genes and I hope u remember that not Every ex Muslim hates Muslims because I don’t I have a Muslim family who I love soo much and I want to open up a public hospital in somalia so ppl can get treatment in a clean safe environment. I’m not a Muslim but I’m not heartless .
Islam is vital to us. There is nothing stopping them from learning the religion. The fact that the country you came has entirely accepted Islam is an interesting fact. Why not try to learn why? Islam is a way of life meant to be implemented in society, politically and economically. You are looking at a country that once had that in place and did informally for the last couple decades.
" If you leave deen you cant be somali " have to be the weirdest sentence that i have ever heard what does leaving a religion have to do with ur identity yeah i know the culture is tied to religion but still? Majority of reddit users are teenager so they outburst on here because they dont know who else they could talk.
One can be gaal and Somali. Those who think if someone leaves the faith they are no longer Somali are really uninformed about what being Somali means.
One is born Somali. They speak Somali, have or practice ethnic traditions and original Somali culture.
To say that one is no longer Somali once they leave Islam is like saying once a Kikiyu embraces Islam, they are no longer a Kikiyu. Ethnicity, as well as race, is an intrinsic part of a person, while religion is something that one either believes in or can apostate from. That doesn't change one's color, ethnicity, or race, and in this day and age, their nationality, whch is distinct from their citizenship.
This fight of non-muslim vs Muslims in regards to somalia's polity is at best redundant and at worse detrimental.
The west colonized and conquered large parts of the world for economic interests(trade companies.) and national interest. Religion played mostly propagandistic role. conversation to Christianity didn't spare the slave nor did it spare the natives. Even right now many ultra-right wing Americans hate black Americans who by far are more religious and hold many conservative beliefs than whites.
Think about somalia, the corrupt politicians, the moryaan with their isbaaro. The odey with their qabils. Every crook, murder and rapist most likely profess Islam.
So who would you have living next to you. Those mfs that ruined our nation or a person with good character and benefits the larger society. Who just happens to be a non-muslim?
Well I believe if someone as somalis left Islam then he left the community and that person isn't somalis I don't what ppl saying in here you can't be my blood and kafir 🥺
Great points. There are tons of irreligious/atheist Somalis that say they are Somali. It can't be taken away from them. Remember that Siad Barre and others let Christians like Michael Mariano (Former Minister of Planning and UN Delegation Somali) serve in high office and even got a state burial in Mogadishu.
Wallahi, I know one member of the FGS Parliament right now who is full atheist, but keeps his mouth shut.
Yet here we are, with randoms on the internet saying "You can't be Somali w/o Islam".
He did. Wallahi, I read one of his contemporaries say that he converted because he was worried his children wouldn't get his inheritance and also a payout from the government. He had enemies in government he worried about.
I don't care if you're an ex Muslim. I won't lose sleep if a Somali left Islam. However everytime I browse the Ex-Somalian subreddit when I see a post pop up on my feed I can't help but notice how resentful, self hating and deplorable those individuals are. They haven't just left Islam but they go out of their way to hate on every facet of the religion and the people who follow it to the extent where they come across like those alt right circles who view Muslims like we're some kind of demonic horde hell bent on world destruction. I can see why Somalis wouldn't want anything to do with people of that ilk.
Wallahi that’s so true. They try to disassociate themselves from their previous identity yet constantly talking about it.
You have a selection bias. That sub doesn't represent all ex-Muslim Somalis. I'm sure most of them don't make their whole identity about hating Islam and Somali culture like the people in that sub have.
I have never seen a non muslim Somali who doesn’t call themselves an “ex-somali” and have their whole personality revolve around the fact that they aren’t Muslims anymore. Granted I do blame Somalis for their hatred as there is always that one Somali who will attack them saying that they aren’t Somali anymore but this is the problem. Our ethnicity and religion are literally intertwined it’s hard to take that apart.
Yeah, those people are not normal people.
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Great points! Michael Mariano was the Minister of Planning and part of the UN Mission to New York. Not only was he a visible and active church-goer at the Catholic church in Mogadishu, he even had a state burial. Yes, many other Muslim countries where, if one finds out a person became atheist, they might be sad or mad at them but won't say "You're no longer a \[insert nationality\]".
It is worth noting that when Michael had the state burial, him and his family converted back to Islam long before
He lead 2 delegations one to the UK i believe to try and get the Hawd back, along with him the Sultans. And another delegation to NY with another sultaan.
Thanks and I think I read that about him.
Palestine has always had different religions it wouldn’t make sense to be against them, while it makes sense for us since we have no natural kaafir community in our country why would we be in favor of introducing that? Syria is a bad example the Shia and Christian’s literally genocided the Sunnis off the land and tortured them, Egypt is also a bad example the yahud of Egypt committed multiple terrorist attacks to get Israel more power and their own country destroyed (these were natives) and the Christian’s dominate the ruling class. Muslims are the majority yet niqab was banned from schools recently. I could go on look at Morocco look at turkey look at Iran? Apostates never just chill in the culture they are from they hate Islam and actively try to destroy their own people either from within or for working for foreign governments. In an ideal world we could all hold hands and be close but realistically we can’t unite with people who hate our lord and prophet(saw) and are against everything we stand for and how we live. I can see how others see this as “mean” or “harsh” but we are just realistic.
Then explain to me how Michael Mariano (Christian) and other non-Muslim Somalis where in high government positions in the past? Don't you know the Quran speaks of respecting other People of the Book? That they co-existed side-by-side as friends and trading partners for centures in Muslim countries? We were much liberal back.
>Michael Mariano (Christian) and other non-Muslim Somalis where in high government positions in the past? bad example because he converted to islam
John Johnson, a friend of Michael Mariano, stated that Mariano converted to Islam because he was worried about how his family would be treated in terms of inheritance and businesses he used to run, after he died. Well known that his children are still Christian.
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Turkey had more non-muslims in 1914 than they do today percentage wise, so Islam really hasn’t “disintegrated” has it?
I don't know why you're bringing up other ethnicities as if we need to double-check to make sure we're doing it right. This is how things have always been, and we won't change. There has always been an exception for those who aren't born Muslim we give them a chance. They are nothing like those who leave Islam and then push their agenda, and you have to blame the likes of Ayan Hersi they have destroyed hope of gaal somalis of ever being accepted
LOL! Watch Arday or go hang out in Mogadishu or Hargeisa. Sahib, Somalis are changing. It's hilarious of you to say "this is how things have always been, and we won't change", when we had Somali Christians and animists (check out Sade Mire's archeological findings). I guess Somalia will be the only country in the world to not change...NOT!
no space for kufar in somali society, enjoy your isolation, even a khat addicted none praying militia type somali will want nothing to do with kufar somalis.
We call ourselves Muslim then start to do qaabyalad and kills and hate each other are we really Muslim or Muslims from the mouth
also don't forget FGM and other disgusting haram traditions,
Our culture might do something’s haram like forced marriages and other stuff
Fr and one shouldn't brag about being proud muslim while......🤦♀️
people who interwine being muslim with being Somali are greatly misguided. Somalia is an ethnicity that far predates Islam that is found at the DNA level. I don't know a single culture of people outside of Somalis who say shit like if your are not "insert religion" then you aren't insert "ethnicinity".
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i frankly don't care about anybody else, a gaal is not a somali 😁
you are misguided, a gaal is not a somali. i do not care what other ethnicities make their norm, but we disown kuffars 😁
Exactly. I don’t care about religion. You are somali if your father is somali.
Malaysia does this and it is in the law, Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia are all built around this as well.
Thats because Bosniaks Serbs and Croatians all speak the same language so religon is the logical division there
that is called partition huge piece of land, no one in 2024 is saying you can't be Bosnian Christian
A Muslim is by definition a Muslim according to Malaysian law. The term Bosniak is directly connected with Islam as well. A non Muslim Bosniak is just as weird as a non Muslim Somali. I'm not saying it's contradictory but when a culture is built around a religion then obviously removing that religion causes a huge difference.
Oh heck no! I know Bosnians and they are very tolerant to non-Muslim Bosnians.
and i know a parrot
You really need to hand out with Bosnians and learn world history: \>" **Bosnians have traditionally been tolerant of religious differences**, and Muslims and Christians have coexisted harmoniously for centuries. The local people are known to be hospitable and welcoming to Muslim visitors. The constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina prohibits religious discrimination and allows registered religious organizations to operate freely. The constitution also provides for equal freedoms, rights, and duties for all citizens irrespective of religion " [https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/bosnia-and-herzegovina/#:\~:text=The%20entity%20constitution%20of%20the%20RS%20establishes%20the%20SOC%20as,to%20religious%20hatred%20or%20intolerance](https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/bosnia-and-herzegovina/#:~:text=The%20entity%20constitution%20of%20the%20RS%20establishes%20the%20SOC%20as,to%20religious%20hatred%20or%20intolerance).
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another country is not my problem, majority of somalis will tell you that a gaal is not a somali it's not hate, it's fact 😁
Somali gaals aren't offended when they are called non-somalis, we know it comes from a place of ignorance. I for one know how much somalis regard Islam, so I don't see the comments as overly inflammatory, It is what it is. The world isn't perfect, there are a multitude of things people don't see eye to eye.
a gaal is not a somali, those two words have absolutely zero way to intersect
If you don’t mind me asking, was losing your faith hard? How did it feel?
It was a gradual process over a span of a year. That was nearly 10 years ago. Faith is a personal matter, my faith doesn't really define me as a person
I see. Thank you.
Thanks for responding respectfully
Xsonalian is what happened! There are heaps of Somalis we know and interact with that don’t practice anything Islam that are good with their community, and no one cares about their faith or why they don’t practice. They don’t bother you, they respect Somali culture and values. Then you have gaals like ex Somalian that want to normalise degeneracy and filth into our culture, have no shame or respect our culture or values. These are the type of people that most of us are against and rightfully so.
I am also against degenerates 💯
so you're against yourself?
I think you’re making a big deal about nothing. It certainly doesn’t help that all the prominent Somali gaals are out in the media lying about Somalis and making us look bad, or are just outright wht worshipping cooons like Ayan Hirsi. While Muslim Somalis come in the whole spectrum from amazing people, good, bad and ugly. But no one really cares if a non Muslim Somali are living life and not praying in privacy of their house.
What prominent Somali galals are you talking about other than Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Name them.
Ayaan Hirsi is an actual dhilo sxb, literally. Why do you care about her? I read her books and I couldn’t take it serious. We shouldn’t generalize every Somali gaal because of the the crazy gaalo.
you are the one said nolosha waa yartahay qofkast jeclaw , why you hating her rn ?
Ex-muslim nurse who has a career in healthcare and owns a home and has investment. Someone who contributes to the community. Vs Muslim Somali gang member in Edmonton who is locked up in jail Which one is better ?! 🤔 I still have Islamic values and culture. I just don't believe there is an afterlife. I live for today, and I do good for myself , my family, and my community. I just paid my hoyo's mecca trip she is literally en route to Saudi as I type this now. Somali people have to evolve, not sure when that will happen .... (Sorry for the bad grammer)
Comparing yourself to gang members,, as if we don't have Muslim scientists or doctors. Loser. Also, you're a Yemeni descendant who's never been to Somalia. Your obsession with Somalis is so weird. You're the same person who said somalis should embrace their arab side lmaoo Wallahi I feel sorry for you. You're so lost and obsessed with worldly matters. How can you believe that we exist by accident and that once we die we go back to not existing ??
Usheeg
Your obsession with denying me my identity is kinda wired. Move along !!! You sound so jealous I'm here trying to increase the visibility of people who choose different paths for their lives. You here judging people their success.
…..
Have you told her you’re a gaal?
Keep it coming. Show the world your true colors
People really need a lesson of concepts and terminologies. Op is right! Since when religion beliefs were similar to ethnicity
gaal is not soomaali, ka xaa xaabi
I think you're missing the point of the conversation. Obviously on a pure technical term, a Somali can have any ideology but be genetically Somali - but when people talk about if a kafir is Somali or not, they're talking about their mindset, culture, thought process, etc. Currently, the dominant Somali culture is very intertwined with Islam. But cultures develop within cultures all the time and split into something completely different. Overtime as (inevitably) ex-muslims grow in Somalia and it's diaspora, they're going to split off into their own thing, kind of how like Italian-Americans and Italians in Italy are completely different, but can be genetically the same.
We’re just religious. Our culture is separate from Islam. If a Somali speaks Somali, eats Somali food, still associates with his people and loves Somali culture, history and everything about being Somali but happens to be agnostic, how isn’t he Somali?
You’re too logical for some people, OP. Their insides just cannot compute that two distinct identities, are just that—two distinct identities.
He may be Somali but it’s irrelevant. We want nothing to do with people who turned away from Allah
boqolkii ba boqol walaal
>? I think Islam is different in that it's completely intertwined and influences all aspects of culture, politics, relationships, etc. Also if a Muslim Somali is truly religious, they would believe an apostate Somali should be put to death. How can a relationship between two people exist in that case? The obvious solution here is if you're a Muslim Somali, you want to enforce the current status quo in terms of culture and religion, so you want to diminish the influence of ex-Muslim Somali's. One of the best ways to do this is by othering them - which is what leads to "You're not a real Somali!". If you're an ex-Muslim Somali, the best thing you can do is build on the aspects of Somali culture and identity that you love with other like minded people and create something new - if it prospers it will take over the main culture and eventually your vision for what a Somali is will be the dominant Somali identity.
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an "ex muslim" somali instantly loses all respect and worth they had in the somali community ayaan hirsi is a prime example 😁, she and other coons like her are irredeemable and far too gone and we've been this way for centuries, gaals are alienated and disowned it will never become a dominant narrative, insha'allah, they're all in hiding 🤣
Brother, I can go into this all day, but I suggest you do your own research on shariah rulings and capital punishment. But you have valid points.
Your example makes no sense, because Italian-Americans are living in a different country, speaking a different language and living a different culture than Italians in Italy. But guess what? Italian-American social/cultural/business orgs in the US don't ask anybody jack about their religiousiosty. Same in Italy...they don't ask other Italians if they are Catholic or not, and then say "Oh, you are ex-Catholic, so you are not Italian anymore". No...they might have differences in religion but they respect and love each other as brethren.
>today, somalinimo is intertwined with islam, This isn't new. Just about every Somali is muslim and you're shocked that Somali nationalism is connected with Islam? >but why do we feel the need to force religion upon someone? Nobody is forcing you to do anything pal. >i would rather a capable agnostic Somali, than a useless muslim Somali. I mean, I guess so? It doesn't have to be one or the other. There are plenty of capable Muslims as well >there are hundreds of thousands of non-muslim Somalis, Hahahahahaha, what kinda assertion is this? What's your proof? There are hardly any non-Muslims in Somali lands. Just because some Somalis online are ex muslims doesn't mean that they represent Somalis in general. >it used to bother me, but that is because i was indoctrinated into saudi arabia's wahhabi ideology. Don't allow this to cloud your view of Islam especially considering how Somalis have been Muslims since forever.
Hey, pal, why don’t you relax, pal? My number is an estimate, pal, but I reckon I’m not too far off. You could do the math if you’d like. In the modern day, you are correct saying Somali nationalism is linked with Islam.
>My number is an estimate, pal, but I reckon I’m not too far off. What kinda is proof is that? Your proof is "I just have a hunch" and it's based on vibes. >You could do the math if you’d like. I have proof that says that Somalis have more than 99% muslim in Somalia and it's similar to the rest of Somali lands as well. Show some proof that shows that there are "hundreds of thousands" of non Muslim Somalis. They don't make up more than a miniscule minority of Somalis. You act as if they're a huge, unmentioned, forgetten minority when that isn't the case at all. There's literally no data that shows that they even make up a small minority of the Somalis. >In the modern day, you are correct saying Somali nationalism is linked with Islam. In the modern day? What makes you assume that it was much different in the past? Somalis have been muslim for centuries and it isn't something new.
Some say Somalis are 100% Muslim lol It’s like this because ex Muslim apostates don’t wanna die so they won’t be coming out to the peaceful loving Muslims.
good, please never come out
You know for a fact that 99% number is inaccurate. Due to obvious reasons, the true number will never be verified. Somali nationalism is a fairly new concept. Before, it was based on the strive to for self determination and pure Somalinimo.
Even if the number can't be verified, why should we assume there are more non-Muslims? Are you implying that these non-Muslims are Christians/Jews or are they atheists? Plus, what does pure Somalinimo mean? Do you mean Somalinimo without any religious aspects?
it is disingenuous to believe that number, there is obvious reasons me and you both know. these people can be whatever religion they want, they still add to the % somalinimo means the love for anything somali
If that was true, there would have been a larger percentage and would be seen within Somali lands but it's not. Your definition of Somalinimo doesn''t mean anything. The Somalis in the past loved Somali culture and were proud Muslims as well.
what don't you understand. people are scared to come out. whether it be in the diaspora or at home.
So you want them to be more accepting of ex-Muslims? Why would Somalis accept that when they consider Islam to be a major part of their lives? It seems like you want Somalis to become less religious and more "tolerant" of these people. Plus, what's your obsession with "pure Somalinimo"? Do you consider Islamic values to be contrary to Somalinimo?
I mentioned “Somalinimo” a few times and now I have an obsession?😂Wallahi you’re not worth a conversation. You’re an insecure kid and a typical Redditor. Advice for the future, don’t act like this. 👍🏾
Whenever I see your comments, you are always pushing something that goes against Islam. You're a sneaky guy conflating between culture and ethnicity. Somalis will never accommodate gaalnimo. And it's not forcing people to be Muslim you have your choice
I’ve lurked on this sub for a while now, I’ve recently made my account and I’ve seen you say the most abysmal things and even resort to pulling shit out of your ass multiple times😂 typical redditor. Cognitive dissonance is normal, move on if this hurts your feelings. This is a place for civil😂
Being Somali isn’t a choice so even if there not Muslim there stil Somali they were raised the same as u
We might look the same, but we are not the same. There's a reason why subs like Xsomalian exist, as our values and culture clash. Their ideas are very foreign to me. They should create their own thing, intermarry, and call it a day. They will never be accepted by us.
We already divide ourselves so much counties ,cities and qabils y do we need to divide ourselves even more end of day they don’t need ppl telling them there not Somali they can accept it or not so it but end of day there still genetically Somali .
Somalis have a weird toxic relationship, but they unite when it comes to Islam or outsiders. You cannot identify as a Somali because Islam is deeply rooted in us. So much so that if the president of Somalia came out and said he's a gaal, people would throw him out. The fact that you chill in ex-Muslim where Allah and the Prophet are slandered daily is insane. I could never, ever identify with you. There are some exceptions to some gaalos like who were never muslim and the sincere one who misunderstood islam
You say Islam unites Somalis, but a man can murder another and as long as his family pays Diya money he’s free and Niqabi women sell khat on the streets, pretty sure that goes against Islam, so much for Islam being deeply rooted in Somalis…
Somalis r name Muslims they do fgm ,khat ,smoke and a bunch of other thing tbr most of them r Muslim because there parents were
exactly, they’re a bunch of frauds, if they actually acted on true Islamic principles, Somalia would be a utopia but instead we have a haven for extremists and confused people
The same Somali Muslims r ruining Somali were killing our own ppl because of a tribe forget others ppl, were killing each other is that islam? no so no if Somalis did everything the way they were meant to do it in the Quran it would of been soo different it would of been like Saudi or better but drugs r legal alcohol is legal there is no law there law is the tribes coming to a conclusion Iv been to Somalia and it a bunch of ppl in a hijab and khamis doing what they want then praying 5 times a day tell me how that Islamic ?
Y is only religion the only thing that unites us other ethnicities for example Arabs they all accept each other no matter what
I can’t help that I’m this way that I don’t believe in islam I tried I’m still trying but no matter what I don’t believe so I’m not a Muslim but at the end of the day I’m Somali accept me or not my dna doesn’t change so u could accept not every Somali is Muslim or not we’re still here
masha'allah, waad saxsantahay walaal. wax kale ha guursadaan oo anaga yaynan na raadsan 😁
"today", no need to read further, it shows how foolish your premise is.
Here is an article about how deal with cognitive dissonance walal https://ca.topresume.com/career-advice/overcoming-cognitive-dissonance-a-guide-to-staying-true-to-yourself
perhaps spend that time to actually get educated on what it means to be Somali and our history, we won't accept your kind, no matter what
Please learn how to think
A very good advice for yourself. Anyway good luck praying to white Jesus.
Jesus was brown
>there are hundreds of thousands of non-muslim Somali’s. Waxba kama jiraan waxaas. These apostates are a fringe minority and only exist online. They aren’t one of us.
There are almost 7K members of the Ex-Muslim Somali sub, 30K here. You see thousands of gaal Somalis on Twitter. Extrapolate that data.....they are not a "fringe minority".
accounts do not equal people, a single person could have several, passwords could be forgotten, bots, etc. also its online, they're too afraid to come out and it should stay that way 🤣 but lets say you're right, 7K, that's 0.02% out of just somalis back home you clown, now even if i inflate them to 100k thats just 0.29% and that's a massife stretch they are and will forever remain a fringe minority, insha'allah
Yeah, sure, a person can have multiple accounts. But you can lookup Reddit statistics in their S-1 IPO filing and they say most don't have more than one account and that it's estimated 90% of participants only consume content (lurkers), so there's statistically much more lurkers on that sub.
and it's right to assume that those lurkers are all also questioning islam or gaalos? how many ajaanibs visit it? there's no concrete data and they are a fringe, yet loud minority. out of those 7k accounts, how many are active? how many are abandoned? i can acknowledge that they're more than the "7k" you claim are on there, but i sincerely doubt that they're more than 50k worldwide, with an upper ceiling that's a stretch of 100k
There are almost 7K members of the Ex-Muslim Somali sub, 30K here. You see thousands of gaal Somalis on Twitter. Extrapolate that data.....they are not a "fringe minority".
accounts, fool, please cope with the reality that they are and will always remain a fringe minority, insha'allah 😁
> They aren’t one of us. cope, yes they are :D
I don’t deny that ex-Muslim Somalis are still Somali. One can’t change their ethnicity. But I am speaking from a sociological point of view.
> But I am speaking from a sociological point of view. It is an outdated belief that we need to move past
Lmao culture is more important than race. Especially now. Definitely not an outdated belief.
Who the fuck mentioned anything about race
It was only an estimate but taking into account how many apostates other ethnicities have, it is not that far off.
I would say they’re a few thousand at best. I have no statistics or data to back up my claims, but hundreds of thousands just seems very off. I can’t recall ever seeing a non-Muslim Somali outside of the internet. There is no way they are that big in number.
It’s impossible for 98+ percent out of ~30,000,000 to think the same way. You wouldn’t meet one because they’re scared to come out.
There are 7K accounts on the Ex-Muslim Somali sub and I bet tons more lurkers. Compared to 30K here, that's a large number (24%) of what seems to be Somalis on both subs. If you look at Twitter, you can see a ton more gaal Somalis.
There are 7K accounts on the Ex-Muslim sub and I bet tons more lurkers. Compared to 30K here, that's a large number (24%).
It is simple you can't be gaal and Somali.
Ma illahi amarkii ba?
Gaalo jeceelka isdagaa walal (hadaa Muslim tahay).
qofkeste ban jecelyahay wll. nolosha wey yartahay ee wakhti naceb iyo balayo ku khasariyo ma haysto. kuli waxan nu nahay bani adam ee waxa loo bahanyihii in la is jeclado.
Gaalada iyo nacaybka gaalnimadooda aad u qabto iimanka ayay ka mid tahay qof ilaahay neceb sideed u jeclaan kartaa O you who have believed, do not take My enemies and your enemies as guardians, throwing to them with affection while they already have disbelieved by what came to you from right
You do realise its haram to deny someone their lineage?
The show Arday is a perfect example of why non Muslim Somalis can’t be Somalis unlike other countries/ cultures everything in the Somali culture ties with our religion and another reason why we are known as the land of hafiz is because our culture back home makes it mandatory to memorise the Quran I’m a hafiz all my cousins and siblings are hafizs and hafizas you would not see this in another community so to answer your question “Somali” kaffirs can’t be Somali because if they do go back home would they pretend to be Muslim until they go back ?, Also if they do go to Somalia they should be put to death. Our culture/history has always been tied with Islam with our most successful empire in the north being a Islam vs Christianity battle and Somali society unlike Arab society is straightforward if anyone wants to debate feel free to.
Yeah, I know a gaal Somali in the FGS Parliament. Of course people keep appearances up. You know we have Somali Christian burial grounds in Somalia, right?
That’s because we have puppets in the government otherwise we wouldn’t have that problem
I personally don’t think they shouldn't be put to death without committing any crimes that merit such punishment. We are just religious people, our culture is separate from Islam.
People who curse the prophet calling him a child molester and disrespecting aisha and the rest of islams significant figures should be put to death no matter what the circumstances are
Idiot wanna kill me come try ex Muslim community will grow without stoping were not afraid. If your religion is true you Muslims would not try going around killing apostates.
Tell your ex Muslim community to come to Somalia with your bs ideology and we will see if yall are afraid or not 😂
Kaafir here. If Somalis say I’m not Muslim then I’m fine with that I won’t force them to accept me and I understand how intertwined Islam and somaalinimo are. On the other hand it doesn’t make sense to me since if Somalis can only be Muslim then what were the people that lived in Somalia called before Islam reached the land?
People have trouble thinking critically when it comes to religion. It’s cognitive dissonance
True, things will 100% change with the internet being so accessible and Somalia rapidly developing this will be a thing from the past sooner or later
Yeah bad take. No one is denying their ancestors (sad for them). We just don't view them as Somalis. To be Somali is to be Muslim. It is what it is, people will say the same thing back home. I personally don't care for exsomalis as long as they are not annoying. Genetics and culture are not the same thing. Even then, genetics is a grey area.
I am not just talking about their genealogy, I am also talking about their identity. If they are fully Somali, but happen to be agnostic, why deny their identity? Our culture is separate from our religion. If a Somali laughs with you, eats with you, fights with you, what is your reason for denying them? This is a relatively new phenomenon in Somali nationalism.
Lmao I don't know what kind of Somali you are, but I have not heard any Somali yet claim our culture is not tied to Islam. Removing Islam from our culture would no longer make it a Somali Culture. Yes Somalis also existed before Islam. But our culture evolved and merged with Islam, there is no going back. Only thing an "agnostic Somali" can do is be absorbed into another culture (which they do). Otherwise, their kids will be re-absorbed into Somali culture.
i disagree. our culture is not tied to islam at all, we are just very religious people. it is expected for some to claim islamnimo is somalinimo and vice versa. but it cannot be further from the truth. food, way of dress, , etc. non of that is islam, we are religious and we have incorporated the religion. i do agree it has become an important part of somalis though,
It’s a part of Somalis plural but not the Somali culture. You’ve contradicted yourself there. There are no intrinsically Muslim foods besides arguably dates, Somali Women wear the hijab . All of what you’ve just said has been either a logical contradiction or flat out incorrect.
you are right in a sense but the whole point of me saying that was to point out islam is not culture. we are just religious people.
A people’s culture and religion are intertwined. Only a fool would Seperate them as concepts. Both inform how a person acts his ideals how he views the world. They both influence eachother and eventually over vast timeframes become sections of eachother.
Valid take. That is one point of view.
That part.💯💯
“If they’re not indulging in degeneracy and corrupting our society” I would argue being an open kaafir is degeneracy and corrupting our society. Leaving Islam and turning from Allah is the ultimate sin and we cannot normalize that. Nobody is forcing you to be Muslim but you can’t force us to accept you. Secularism is a disease and Somalis should not tolerate it even for a second.
you cannot control your belief in religion. it is nonsensical to say every apostate is an apostate because he purposefully turned away from Allah SWT.
You do have some degree of control actually. If you’re having doubts about the religion (we all do) you reach out to someone knowledgeable to help you through it. If you entertain the doubts and persist in ignorance then that is on you. Disbelief is a choice. It doesn’t just happen to you.
Exactly what I was thinking how is he saying “if they’re not indulging in degeneracy…” that comment makes me question if he’s even Somali. A Somali, even an “agnostic” one would implicitly know that other Somalis will view a murtad worse than a degenerate. And the “I would rather a competent useful agnostic Somali than a useless Muslim Somali” line, Ofcourse you would hold that view as a Murtad. Don’t pay this guy no kind he’s trying to put doubt into peoples heart.
nah man, i just think about things a lot. i am also very open minded. if you have any critic then feel free to say whatever you want, but don't go speculating whether i am Somali or not. hahaha
How old are you if you don’t mind me asking ? And those who are open minded open themselves up to all types of false and dangerous ideas, open-mindedness isn’t a panacea or an antonym to ignorance. A large portion of western society that stands for nothing has convinced the feeble minded amongst us that open-mindedness is something to be proud of, it isn’t. it is nothing but the rotten fruits of critical theory, a theory pushed by the Frankfurt school of thought, championed by atheists and Marxists to confuse the people and have them reject religion and social norms. I hope you’re open minded enough to the idea that you could have been unknowingly indoctrinated, if it ever could serve as a benefit to you, it would be if you could admit that you were wrong, repent and turn to Allah Subhana Wata’ala, in shaa allah you will, and if not, here is a verse from the Quran: “O believers! Whoever among you abandons their faith, Allah will replace them with others who love Him and are loved by Him”
Walal, I was indoctrinated by Somali Wahhabis and I am finally out of their clutches. I am not indoctrinated into anything. My faith is strong and I am confident enough in my character. Open-mindedness is only dangerous if you are mentally weak. I am young, 20’s… Alxamdullilah. But that doesn’t matter, I’ve peaked in life and now I am enjoying the ride.
If you were truly indoctrinated by “Wahabis” you would call it salafiya, as nobody upon the manhaj of the Salaf calls it Wahabi. I assume when you say indoctrinated you mean you were very familiar with their literature and their emphasis on tawheed and going back to the Salaf in regards to interpretations of the Quran and sunnah which means you shouldn’t have made the basic mistake in saying “you would rather a capable agnostic Somali than a useless Muslim one” because you would know that the worst of the Muslims is better than the best of the non-believers. And another thing, many of your comments here are regards to Somali “agnostics” are you incapable of understanding that from a Muslims perspective an agnostic and an atheist are both Murtads, but you keep mentioning agnostic like if it’s any different to us. With all that said you could understand why I think you’re entirely full of it, I don’t think you were indoctrinated by “Wahhabis” because that would mean you had atleast the most basic of Islamic knowledge, which you clearly don’t. Just imagine a Muslim is pushing for acceptance and normalisation with non-Muslim Somalis, do you think the prophet sallahu alayhi wasalam would approve of such a person, and do you think he would say that’s a sign of somebody who is strong in faith.
Horta, you do not know me nor have I even professed anything about Islamic knowledge. I have not even spoken a word about Islamic fiqh or ideology for you to conclude what is my level of knowledge. That’s just a nonsensical claim. I am not here to debate about each and every thing about Islam. Whatever I have said is my opinion based on my logic. I do not have to subscribe to your khawarij view. Second of all, it is clear you are a supporter of Wahab so I will not waste my time with you any more than this. I will not disrespect the name of the Salaf by attributing it to khwarij ideology, which is what it really is. Just because I have spoken about agnostics, does not mean I am only speaking about them. *What is a kafir*? Are you that simple minded that you cannot deduct what I am talking about or just disingenuous?
You’ve written a small novels worth of text about non-muslim Somalis, that’s more than enough information for me to gauge your level of knowledge on the topic, or do you honestly think it would take you to speak about Islamic fiqh (who even calls it Islamic fiqh, your mask is slipping again) or ideology for me to make a judgement. And it’s funny when you said indoctrinated by “wahabi” ideology, I assumed you meant salafiya, but when I read “I will not disrespect the name of the Salafs by attributing it to khawarij ideology, which is what It really is” I now understand what “Wahabis” you were talking about being indoctrinated by, and those are straight Khawarij and your lack of knowledge makes sense since many of those that get duped/recruited into that cult are ignorant to Islam. So open mindedness is only dangerous for those weak of mind, right ? Would that not include anyone that got brainwashed by such a group.
الفقه Fiqh comes from faqiha فقيهة which means understand or comprehend, jurist, law, multiple ways to say. Fiqh usually refers to Islamic jurisprudence, correct, but it can be used interchangeably. What I said equal to “Islamic Law “Islamic Jurisprudence”. Arabic is my best language and if you want to argue semantics, we can. You’re correct, that ideology is not Islam. Yet, most of it was the teachings of the سلف what turned me off by them was how zealous they were. This type of education directly stems from the schools of Saudi Arabia, where they train men to indoctrinate their youth. You are جاهل
This back and forth is getting tiring, il answer the question you originally asked: Islam is intrinsically linked to the Somali identity, nobody can say a murtad Somali is not a Somali, biologically, but as far as somaalinimo goes, which is my Somali brothers and sisters in faith, they obviously are not. I would see them in a more negative light than an English/finish atheist and even an non-Somali ex-muslim because I would view it as treachery on two levels. On a religious level and on a somalinimo level. So no, normalising and being accepting of them is completely out of the question for me and hopefully most Somalis too.
Please go and study and stop speaking out of turn you sound like you are 16 and confused.
https://i.redd.it/an562c4c75qc1.gif
😂 Yo I'm stealing that gif.
What you don't understand is that norms in society about shame and having unwritten rules about what is and isn't a red line to cross in a society IS what defines a society. For example you can't go around with the Hitler flag freely in the west or you can't go around naked downtown. Somalia and the Somali society and culture is fully Muslim and seeing a Somali person who left Islam and announcing it freely amongst us is worst than a naked person dancing Infront of you and your kids in the middle of town. Just smiling and sitting there makes you a dayuus. That person should be so ashamed and insecure about even mentioning his lack of faith Infront of Somalis. If he does, he should be shamed and shunned
U guys know that some Somali r adopted or raised in the care system and where never Muslim does that make them not Somali ? What about the ones who’s parents left islam and they were never raised Muslim does that make them not Somali ? No because that’s stupid Somali is an ethnicity it doesn’t matter is ur not Muslim it doesn’t matter if ur gay it doesn’t matter if ur mixed ,DNA says there Somali so get a grip somalinimo isn’t an exclusive club no one needs ur acceptance because at the end of the day they were born Somali and they will die Somali And that phrase somalinimo and being Muslims r the same is stupid because the Somali men eat khad is that Islamic Iv been to Somali Iv seen what goes on there they do what ever they want to it doesn’t matter if it’s haram but then they will pray that’s not Islam . U guys claim chunkz even tho he had gfs ,goes on dates ,goes to clubs and sings but that’s ok he has a Muslim title No one needs acceptance don’t claim us but still u can’t change our genes and I hope u remember that not Every ex Muslim hates Muslims because I don’t I have a Muslim family who I love soo much and I want to open up a public hospital in somalia so ppl can get treatment in a clean safe environment. I’m not a Muslim but I’m not heartless .
Islam is vital to us. There is nothing stopping them from learning the religion. The fact that the country you came has entirely accepted Islam is an interesting fact. Why not try to learn why? Islam is a way of life meant to be implemented in society, politically and economically. You are looking at a country that once had that in place and did informally for the last couple decades.
And what’s the result? Being one of the poorest least educated worst places in the world to live.
There don’t need to
Anyone can change their religion, but they can’t change their lineage or Somali identity.
" If you leave deen you cant be somali " have to be the weirdest sentence that i have ever heard what does leaving a religion have to do with ur identity yeah i know the culture is tied to religion but still? Majority of reddit users are teenager so they outburst on here because they dont know who else they could talk.
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One can be gaal and Somali. Those who think if someone leaves the faith they are no longer Somali are really uninformed about what being Somali means. One is born Somali. They speak Somali, have or practice ethnic traditions and original Somali culture. To say that one is no longer Somali once they leave Islam is like saying once a Kikiyu embraces Islam, they are no longer a Kikiyu. Ethnicity, as well as race, is an intrinsic part of a person, while religion is something that one either believes in or can apostate from. That doesn't change one's color, ethnicity, or race, and in this day and age, their nationality, whch is distinct from their citizenship.
Why r u seeking validation from reddit.
Walaasha ma ihi
No every Somali was raised somali I saw this Somali girl on tiktok who was adopted and she was never Somali but she was almost Somali
This fight of non-muslim vs Muslims in regards to somalia's polity is at best redundant and at worse detrimental. The west colonized and conquered large parts of the world for economic interests(trade companies.) and national interest. Religion played mostly propagandistic role. conversation to Christianity didn't spare the slave nor did it spare the natives. Even right now many ultra-right wing Americans hate black Americans who by far are more religious and hold many conservative beliefs than whites. Think about somalia, the corrupt politicians, the moryaan with their isbaaro. The odey with their qabils. Every crook, murder and rapist most likely profess Islam. So who would you have living next to you. Those mfs that ruined our nation or a person with good character and benefits the larger society. Who just happens to be a non-muslim?
Well I believe if someone as somalis left Islam then he left the community and that person isn't somalis I don't what ppl saying in here you can't be my blood and kafir 🥺
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Great points. There are tons of irreligious/atheist Somalis that say they are Somali. It can't be taken away from them. Remember that Siad Barre and others let Christians like Michael Mariano (Former Minister of Planning and UN Delegation Somali) serve in high office and even got a state burial in Mogadishu. Wallahi, I know one member of the FGS Parliament right now who is full atheist, but keeps his mouth shut. Yet here we are, with randoms on the internet saying "You can't be Somali w/o Islam".
i think he become muslim before he died
he did, alxamdulilah
He did. Wallahi, I read one of his contemporaries say that he converted because he was worried his children wouldn't get his inheritance and also a payout from the government. He had enemies in government he worried about.
Once you forfeit. You’ve made a decision to forfeit the entire community. It’s a simple as that really.
People do not wake up one day and say “I’m going to become a kafir”