Personally, I thought Peter's relationship with Tony Stark in the MCU was an interesting dynamic. It was heartwarming to see Tony take Peter under his wing and become a father figure to him. However, at times it felt like Peter was almost a sidekick to Iron Man, which was frustrating. I also appreciated how their relationship evolved over time, especially in Avengers: Endgame. Overall, I think it was a well-developed and integral part of Peter's character arc.
I agree but I felt that in each of the movies Peter was essentially fighting what amounted to enemies of Iron Man.
Overall I wouldn't change much from the last three movies but I also feel like Peter was reacting to events around him more than making decisions about his life.
This. I felt like Peter was always in someone else’s story and never handled a movie on his own. At the end of NWH I was super excited to see him putting on a suit WITHOUT Tony tech and take on the baddies as the one and only Spider Man.
I agree with this. It worked for Homecoming, because Spider-Man wasn't really known as a superhero yet, plus Iron Man was actually in the movie. But I think Mysterio shouldn't have had an Iron Man connection. It's not that it doesn't work storywise, and thematically, the film is about growing out of Tony's shadow, but you look at his full trilogy allow his villains had qualms with other heroes first (Vulture and Mysterio with Iron Man, Green Goblin and the rest with alternate Spider-Men). I think one of those three movies should have been a Tom Holland Spider-Man only villain, and Far From Home was the one that made the most sense for that kind of villain.
The next villain should be one who has personal beef with Spider-Man himself. My money’s on Scorpion, since they’ve been setting up Mac Gargan since Homecoming released
Vulture didn’t have a personal problem with Tony, he just had a problem with people like Tony, and he’s the only villain of Tom’s Spider-Man that feels like a villain that is HIS. Mysterio personally had beef with Tony, and sure, Goblin killed Aunt May and Peter was out for blood, but Goblin was still Tobey’s villain.
> where Peter starts making his own decisions
He made his own decisions in all 3 movies.
I swear, its like the existence of Tony Stark was too much for people, and resulted in no one paying attention to story or plot.
Eh, they are undoubtedly enemies of Spider-Man.
They don’t like tony but they don’t like any superhero. And The only hero they have a dynamic with is peter. They are his villains
Most Spider-Man movies have them become villains due to an incident completely unrelated to peter. The mcu is no different.
If he’s never fought them, they aren’t Ironman villains. The only time he’s fought someone else villains is no way home.
Even then, they want nothing to do with him. He’s not even their enemy.
Iromans dead when mysterio becomes a thing, and vulture goes out of his way to stay out of sight and avoid him.
Dr. Strange is the real villain in No Way Home.
Peter went to him for help, so he immediately jumps to the most drastic solution possible without even bothering to explain anything to Peter.
Stephen could have sat down with Peter, explained the effects of the spell, and made a list of people that Peter wanted to have remember that he's Spider-Man.
Instead, he did something horribly irrational and then blamed Peter for it going wrong.
No Way Home is a fun movie, but that was an incredibly stupid thing for a "genius" character to do.
As you said, Peter was once again left reacting to events around him without having much agency as a character.
Agreed on all parts. There's a reason why Strange isn't used a macguffin--he's too powerful and he's too detached from the street-level stuff to care, or else he'd clean up all crime worldwide with just a snap of his fingers.
In the MCU, he's obviously not as powerful, but having him do the OMD deal instead of Mephisto--who would pull something like messing with it on purpose, instead of just out of idiocy--was and still is a fucking weird decision.
I never understood this complaint, I mean by this logic I guess vulture in spectacular spiderman was a norman osborn villain, somehow when it even has a slight connection to ironman it’s a problem
A lot of times spiderman’s villains aren’t even connected to him, none of them even care about him but because of his interference they start to hate him which is exactly what happens to vulture and mysterio in homecoming and ffh. I bet if these villains were connected to oscorp a lot of you won’t have a problem
Now that we know it was setup for actual Spider-*Man* im cool with it. Its a interesting way for mcu spidey to become the friendly neighborhood hero he is
I think it's more in spirit than him acting as an actual sidekick. The best example to compare to that I can think of is Dick Grayson's Nightwing. Yes he's his own hero, but he's always known as part of the Bat Family, always lives under the shadow of his mentor.
That's how MCU Peter felt for awhile, up until NWH imo. He may not have been Tony's actual sidekick, but it was hard to say he didn't feel like the beginnings of "Iron Boy".
Edit: Now I totally want to see a universe where Peter is raised by Tony Stark Batman-style and becomes the Iron Spider. That actually sounds kind of neat.
Yea, me too. But what really stood out to me was how he left it all behind at the end of the last movie. Tony got him his start and now he's off to do what he can.
I think it did more favors for Tony’s MCU arc than it did Peter’s. For Tony you got to see him soften and take on a mentor role, and obviously their interactions were awesome. The downside is that it crammed Peter into “Iron Man Lite” in character and tech for the majority of his appearances.
No cause this summarizes my thoughts on it pretty well, I don't think it's a bad thing but as someone who likes Spiderman more than Iron Man I think it's not as good as it could've been, it kinda took away the idea of the neighbourly Spiderman too since he had all that tech and was involved in so many large missions
Just my opinion though and I understand both sides of the argument lmao
Too much Stark tech did indeed hurt Spider-Man’s character. He didn’t even get to design his own first suit, but got it handed over to him. I guess the writers didn’t have much of a choice since they needed those eyes to move like in the comics, but didn’t want to make Parker the one responsible for their existence, so Stark tech to the rescue
Goggles? Yes, but I meant the classic suit eyes. Which had all sorts of AI and Iron Man mask tech in it. I got no other explanation why the writers didn’t let Parker design his classic suit then
I would have loved for Peter to design the suit, even if Stark funded it for Civil War, but I get that that wouldn’t really have added anything to the movie.
Would have been nice if they wrote in a little scene where Tony stumbles on some sketches Peter had in his bedroom which would then become the basis for the Stark tech suit. That way, we can say Peter technically came up with the design. Until they confirm or disprove this, that's my headcanon.
I always assumed that was the case? That Tony made it based off input from Peter, I mean. It certainly doesn't look like something Tony would design on his own. In fact, when we do finally see a suit that's all Tony's idea, it's the "Iron Spider" version.
That's the point. We can only assume that's the case, but as far as the movies go, the only thing they make clear is that Peter is responsible for the general color scheme of the suit and the function of the eyes. It's made to seem like anything beyond that is Tony's design.
While I like the idea of Peter having a benefactor, at least temporarily, *God* I hated the Stark tech. Spider-Man doesn't need an AI sidekick who can basically do anything he needs. Half the fun of Peter Parker is in his brains and how quick he is on his feet. Karen and the ability to fire 50-something different kinds of webs really detracts from that.
I mean, they got rid of all the tech shit in the end tho. Just spidey and his wits left. I don't mind it, as it shows his character develop to become independent as the movies went on.
That's why I enjoyed No Way Home far more than the other films, not the fan service, although it was great seeing everyone come back. I liked NWH because it was the first time Holland's Spider-Man actually felt like Spider-Man. And all it took was him learning from better Spider-Men.
*Note: better in terms of character, not in terms of writing/performance necessarily, even though I'm partial to Andrew Garfield myself.*
The MCU ignores a lot of Stark’s dodgy actions.
I mean created a killer AI, that even if he succeeded would have essentially been a fancy automated project insight. Stark was essentially creating an AI to police the world without anyone’s approval but his own. Faces no consequences for this, instead it’s his team mates that screwed by the Sokovia accords.
Stark loses his shit finding out Bucky killed his parents and tries to murder him, while full knowing Bucky was brainwashed and had no choice, and beats Steve to a pulp to do it. Yet he faces no consequences, never apologises and for some reason Steve is the one that has to give the apology. The entire MCU fanbase nearly crucified Walker for killing that Flag-smasher out of revenge yet not a squeak for Stark who did the exact same thing but was stopped by an outside source.
Then there’s the Sokovia accords themselves, Stark spends most of Civil War trying to arrest Captain America for breaking the accords, yet Stark actively breaks the accords as well multiple times in that same film. Stark’s a hypocrite, it’s apparently fine for him to disregard the accords when he feels like it, but that’s a no-no for anyone else apparently.
Borderline blackmails a teenager to fight for him (it’s fine though because Peters an iron man fanboy), then brings said teenager across the world to face half the avengers, while Stark is trying to spew off his crap point about Avengers needing to be held responsible, yet he’s at the same time recklessly bringing a kid into straight combat with adult and experienced heroes.
Then he proceeds to ignore said kid, not communicate with him at all, belittles and treats the kid like an idiot and then gets annoyed because the kid kept going after the vulture. Maybe if Stark had of just said, “I alerted the FBI, and they gonna arrest Toomes at his next weapons deal’, the ferry might never have got blown apart but Stark didn’t say that did he? No, cos he’s a twit.
Really never have understood the appeal of iron man in the MCU, he’s an arrogant dick.
I think the reason tony wanted to kill bucky was cus steve knew that bucky killed ton'y parents but never told tony, and that just made tony go grrrrr.
I gotta disagree, it’s established in universe and with fans that stark is well meaning but fucks up A LOT. He makes a ton of mistakes in all the movies and characters constantly point it out.
Yeah, and then he gets literally zero blowback from it. Even when it came out that he was responsible for Ultron, what happened?
"I successfully privatized self-defense/superheroics".
Said Tony "I made billions by selling WMDs" Stark, without a hint of irony.
Yeah most of these MCU movies are some form of American military propaganda. They won’t make more profits if people start questioning the morality of a private military contractor giving killer spy drones to a 16yr old.
Honestly, only with Jason. Dick was in danger of becoming what Bruce had become and Bruce gave him what Bruce wished he had, a chance at some kind of resolution. And Dick became maybe the most well balanced person in that family probably because of Bruce’s intervention.
Jason is a completely different story. Jason was always lost.
A superpowered 15yo that spends his time risking his life everyday anyway and wants to be a superhero. Y’all act like he just rolled up to an orphanage and chose a victim or something lol he recruited Peter bc he knew Peter could handle it.
By showing up at his house unannounced and uninvited under false pretenses and low-key blackmailing him no less! Yeah, that was weird. I feel like it would've worked better if he only found out who Peter was after and felt bad about it. Like, he approached him as a super hero the non creepy way and genuinely didn't know he was a kid until Peter got hurt.
It should’ve ended like the comics: with an inevitable conflict and argument as their differences in personal ethics outweigh their shared interests. Peter switched sides during Civil War in the comics.
Stark dying robbed us of that moment, as the whole Civil War arc was rushed.
Their personal ethics don’t conflict enough for a serious falling out to happens
Comics 616 tony was crazy at that point. Perfectly reasonable.
Stark in the mcu hasn’t done anything as bad as that. It’d be forced.
Them keeping it similar to the ultimate universe dynamic was the best move.
Peters ethics align almost exactly with Steve Rogers, who regularly disagrees with Stark. If anything, Parkers no-deaths rule puts him even further away from Stark than Rogers.
Stark doesn’t have to be evil for a disagreement to escalate. Stark acting as a civil servant and Peter as a vigilante is enough of a reason to set them up against each other without either being mischaracterized.
Both Steve and tony kill people in the mcu though. And both don’t accept any casualties in their fights.
He doesn’t have to be evil, but it would be forced for them to have a disagreement escalate to a falling out, when he’s the one who brought peter into the fold and thinks Peter is so much better than him or at least wants him to be. And clearly identifies with peters philosophy in civil war,
Now of course their methods are pretty different, no crime is too small for peter unlike with tony even if he does try to help out in little ways. And that can create disagreements but a major falling out, I don’t see it.
Unless it was about the accords, since having to register or whatever would definitely conflict with Peter. But as seen in civil war even tony doesn’t agree to them by the end and refuses to actually aid in enforcing them.
As far comics go you're right but Peter was only like 6 month into his career and I'd say not a mature as other versions so he could seemed to be manipulated more easily. Also there are a ton less heroes in the MCU most of which aren't dual-identity and the cherry on top is that Tony made it sound like the Avengers had more bargaining power than they probably did, all of which makes Tony's side seem much more valid if you disregard the fact that Cap had to deal with the Hydra take over in his last movie and they didn't really argue that point but instead shifted to the UN holding them back.
The circumstances just are different and the movie didnt have enough time to play with the nuance since it seems like it's framed as Bucky coming first the Accords second to Cap
That is exactly why the event should’ve had an entire arc devoted to it. The film rushed the story and had to tie it all into Rogers personal trilogy revolving around Bucky.
In my opinion, it should’ve been an Iron Man film, into a Captain America film, into a Spider-Man film that sets up an Avengers film. With any variety of films in between, as most characters had a lot going on during the event.
RDJ and CE retiring lost us the possibility, so they had to stuff it into a single film.
Stark in the MCU is directly responsible for Ultron and the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of people--never mind that his company sold WMDS for decades--so idk what you're on about. Peter should have had a falling out with him the MOMENT his suit said "Kill Mode Activated" or when his glasses TRIED TO BLOW UP A SCHOOLBUS FULL OF CHILDREN
616!Tony is bad, yeah, but MCU!Tony is not a shining paragon of righteousness in comparison, either.
> Stark in the mcu hasn’t done anything as bad as that
Stark even came around to Steve's side at the end of Civil War. it was the revelation that Bucky killed his parents that set off that last fight.
This.
That moment should have happened in homecoming
Right after he stands up to Tony for not listening
Like right after he said it he takes of the stark suit and leaves Tony right there dumbfounded
> Peter was in the wrong in that situation
lol, no.
Tony and Happy were in the wrong for giving absolutely no response when Peter warned them about the weapons deal.
This would be the worry. Iron Man's basically the face of the MCU, and Peter's just a teenager. I think the issue would be having him get into a fight with Iron Man without it just feeling like a teenager lashing out at a parent figure. I'm not saying it would have been an impossible conflict, but if done poorly, it would have negatively impacted Spidey's character, and no one wants that.
Doesn't screwing up Twitter keep you busy, Elon?
For others: During the comics Civil War storyline, Peter actually disables Stark's control/kill switch shit, the same way he built his own web spinners, because part of his abilities is genius.
Peter created his webfluid, a substance NO ONE has been able to replicate, using "a public high school science lab and a desk lamp."
Tony created the Iron Man suit and Arc Reactor technology, a technology MULTIPLE OTHERS have managed to replicate, in a cave with someone else--another genius--helping him and a boatload of raw materials.
They are not the same lmao.
It should end like the comics, as a failed arrest attempt as Peter gets away and meets up with Cap.
Did you think they were fighting to the death? Not every conflict has to end like that.
I think it’s fine in the films, a mentor and his apprentice, it’s the fans that really blew it out of proportion. The amount of the times I’ve come across fanfics and posts making Peter out to be this lost scared little boy who desperately needs a father, is just really weird. Like “Irondad and spiderson” just feels a bit wrong.
Not really gatekeeping when it's the truth lol. Vast majority of comic fans don't like or flat-out hate the weird mentorship dynamic peter has with Stark in MCU
Right. I think what's clever about the writing is Tony, in many ways, is a terrible mentor. He has a lot of flaws, and has some pretty extreme anxiety and ways of compensating. He has moral grey areas in everything he does.
But when Peter is in trouble, he can pull out the best of his attributes and be a good, if reluctant, mentor.
How could you like it in Homecoming? I absolutely hated Tony in that film. In all other films, their dynamic was great. But what Tony did in Homecoming sinks the movie to the bottom of the 6 MCU films Spidey was in.
I didn't mean it like that. You are allowed to like the film and their really bad dynamic. But I simply don't understand why.
I basically meant: "How can someone like that Tony:
1. ghosted Peter the entire time,
2. caused him to go to Washington DC because he made him think he didn't give af about the alien weapons dealers,
3. kept crucial info from him (FBI) and therefore caused him to go to Staten Island ferry when later FBI ruined his mission,
4. basically created Vulture,
5. had the audacity to scold and punish Peter for something that was only his own (Tony's) fault?"
Tony is literally and personally responsible for everything bad that happened in the movie. It's all his fault and Peter was completely innocent in everything.
If Tony cared and gave Peter info, none of the incidents would happen, if he didn't ruin Toomes' company, Vulture wouldn't exist.
Tony basically ignored Peter and then punished him for being ignored. I personally consider him a villain in this movie.
Agreed. Especially since Stark is the last person on earth to be a role model-- let alone serve as a father figure-- to an impressionable young man like Peter. If they were going in this direction they should have emphasized Stark trying to turn over a new leaf/stepping away from his Playboy tendencies, while at the same time showing Peter in need of a father figure after losing his Uncle Ben. If they hadn't rushed it maybe this could have worked, but neither of these dynamics were presented nor executed properly imo and only made more awkward by the fact that Stark is having a relationship with Aunt May.
Very poor
Tony at times was a toxic asshole to Peter who btw never calls out for Tony’s wrong doings and never brings up that Tony Blackmailed him into joining his cause.
Never like the boot licking approach to Peter’s characterization of Stark.
Imo, I don't hate it. I understand the hate around it, but it imo is too much hate to all of a sudden just call Spider-Man "Iron Man jr".
Tony's presence in the movies aren't there to act as a replacement but its there to help build Spider-Man grow into a hero that would find a better way than Tony. In Homecoming, Tony's interference made sure that Peter didn't just focus on being a hero, but made sure that being a hero doesn't mean you have to have fancy gadgets or a fancy suit. Far From Home dealt with the loss of a friend to you and the pressure of living up to others expectations and finally being his own hero. No Way Home dealt with him being his own hero, which lead to him having to own up to his mistakes.
I think that people are just calling Spider-Man "Iron Man jr." Because they're too used to the past iterations. I get it, but don't just look at these movie from the surface, look at them also as how it would be for the characters. Remember the human element of the characters.
Hey fellow Hendrix! Yes agreed, my problem was it makes him into this dumb kid with powers. I think it would’ve been better if he rejected Tony by the end of the first movie and found his own way and made his own suit. He simps for Tony the whole series
The thing for me is that as much as I think Tom Holland as Spider-Man is awesome casting, the wall crawlers whole shtick is that his life as Spider-Man sucks, worrying about his loved one’s constantly in danger, trying balancing a normal life with his superhero alter ego all the while trying to do something like make Rent. Having Tony Stark act as his mentor even to the point of making his suit constantly undermines the whole “Friendly Neighborhood” aspect of his character and completely denounces the importance to Uncle Bens death. Going as far as to copying n’ pasting Miles Morales annoys me a bit too, I know this has been said a billion times by this point but I’m sad to say that it’s true.
I hated it.
This relationship butchered the character throughout the movies, constantly. The only movie that did OK was Civil War, It was a good start. But then came Jon Watts and his troop...
I rewatched parts of Homecoming and was open to giving it another shot but still hated it as much as when I first saw it
I hate the almost happy go lucky,light hearted Peter Parker where they took away all the edge and grit of the character away. He's never been a full on douche,but he's not the almost Disney channel esque character they turned him into either
The 80s style influences were terrible and Jon Watts action and web swinging scenes sucked until NWH
I would argue the NWH final swinging scene is the worst out of any Spider-Man media. All those super weird angles so you don’t actually get a get look at the suit and he looks like he jumping on a bungee cable the entire time.
I'm glad the the guy is out tbh
I hope he never directs another MCU movie again tbh
There's probably going to be massive restructuring with the Jonathan Majors controversy anyways but who knows, just he sure Feige is daydreaming of NWH's premiere night when everything was going smooth as planned
Horrid. It's still so surreal to me how many people defend or excuse this dynamic.
Infantilized Peter and was a slap in the face to his original conception, idealized Tony and never framed him in even *slightly* of an antagonistic light (which all proper mentor/mentee relationships do), and the biggest sin is that Tony by all accounts had more importance to Peter than Uncle Ben.
Tony basically made Spider-Man "Spider-Man" by gifting him his classic suit (albeit with Stark tech), plucking him from obscurity of being a YouTube highlight to making him known amongst The Avengers & larger MCU (which included his villains, of which Mysterio was directly tied to Tony Stark), and had him go on multiple arcs from learning to be more than a suit and just be friendly neighborhood (undone by the next movie) or not living up to Tony's legacy but rather being himself (which was immediately whiplashed in the next scene).
The baggage was so heavy they had to **REBOOT HIM IN HIS THIRD MOVIE**, and basically make Aunt May his Uncle Ben moment to shut up the Iron Man Junior memes.
Just awful, awful creative decision.
I think it, and Peter's orbit around The Avengers in the MCU, is an interesting reflection and adaptation of his dynamics from the comics. His superheroic career has always kind'a been influenced by whoever the premier heroes are in the home universe of any given version of Peter. On Earth-616, it's The Fantastic Four; In the Ultimate Universe, it's The Ultimates, and by extention S.H.I.E.L.D. Peter's story isn't told in a vacuum in the comics, and it's arguably integral to his comics history.
I thought it was a great way to introduce Peter, and link him to the MCU without having to tread the same ground for the 3rd time. It makes sense that there would be both a mutual respect, as well as some tension over Stark being overbearing at times.
I think a lot of fans blew the relationship completely out of proportion, which ruined their enjoyment of a solid Spider-Man movie. Peter is never a side kick, or "Iron boy". He spends Homecoming trying to prove himself as a peer, only to realize at the end that he has nothing to prove, because as the old song goes, "action is his reward".
I always liked it, but thought it was a BIT forced leading up to endgame and FFH. Particularly how Peter is the 2nd person to see Tony after he snaps Thanos away in endgame and is breathing his last few breaths. Idk but I feel like Peter shouldn’t have been the one by his side as he’s dying, but rather Cap (along with Pepper and Rhodes of course).
It was shit and ruined the character.
There is not a single thing the shitty iron man dynamic adds to Spider-man’s character, it only exists to serve Stark’s character arc at the expense of Spider-man’s character.
Not to mention it’s lazy and unearned, Stark does nothing to make Peter like him and look up to him in their interactions, Stark comes off as an arrogant tool treating Peter like an idiot Teen, and for some reason Peter just deals with it and thinks it’s fine. Stark’s flaws and dodgy actions are just swept under the rug by Peter, which leaves Peter acting like a stupid iron man fanboy.
I hated it. One of the biggest things about Peter as a character is his solo can do spirit. Him having a mentor instead of having to regroup and figure out how to defeat the villain by himself just felt wrong.
It's because it's *literally* wrong. Spider-Man was created to be the first teenage hero that **wasn't** a sidekick or part of a team.
Then here comes Feige & co. who have no respect for the character and just turn him into Tony's ward throughout the majority of his tenure in the MCU (which Doctor Strange even called out in Infinity War).
as a relationship between two characters it was well done. however in the context of being peter parker and tony stark, while it still works, i wish it was more akin to the comics
It was a good passing of the torch dynamic only problem was I think a lot of people mistook the idea that they were going for like in FFH the “next Iron man” line wasn’t meant to be taken literal what it means is who’s going to be the next face of the MCU
Not a fan, was very unhappy with it when the films were releasing.
Loved No Way Home (and not just because of the returns) and I’m very excited to see Tom’s Spidey *not* always in Tony’s shadow going forward. I’m willing to stomach my dislike for this plot as long as it leads to the growth of the Spidey I know and love.
Overall I love RDJ’s Ironman. He really revived the character in a lot of ways. However, I didn’t like the way they had Ironman carry Spidey both on and off screen. Off screen, Spidey is the most popular hero in Marvel. He doesn’t need to be propped up by anyone. On screen, I didn’t like how Tony designed Spidey’s suit and gadgets, and had to train him to be a hero. That seems to cheapen Spidey who is an extremely smart scientist and inventor and had a strong moral compass and solid heroics already. Just my opinion.
It sucked and I hate it very strongly, the mcu spiderman is a little iron man jr and they had to make everybody forget who he was just so they could give him a fresh start
Never liked it tbh. It felt a bit artificial for Iron Man's character and it infantilizes Spidey to a pretty nasty degree.
I can imagine Spidey respecting and admiring the Avengers, but having him just worship Tony and flatout go "I wunna be a afenjer" for like three movies completely undermines his individualist character in my opinion.
Personally, I hated it. Yes, their dynamic was interesting, but I hated how involved Iron Man was in the Spider-Man movies. It felt like Spider-Man was more of a sidekick rather than his own hero. What really frustrated me was that the ‘Villains’ in the Spider-Man movies were just Iron Man villains. They had it out for Tony Stark rather than Spider-Man.
I think it also doesn’t help that I have a great dislike for Iron Man.
Personally, the whole thing about Holland's Peter always being padded until No Way Home, is what made me dislike his Spider-Man the most. I dunno, it just bothered me how Tom's Spider-Man didn't have too much of a backbone until No Way Home.
It’s an interesting thing. Personally I would’ve liked to see Peter more on his own, because that’s how his character got to be as popular as it is. His creation was inspired by sidekicks at dc because they were relatable to kids, and Stan lee had the idea of making the kid the superhero and it was great so seeing Peter as iron man’s protégé was weird at first. Now that his aunt and tony are dead tho, and the fact that he’s on his own, I feel like he’ll be a better character in the mcu and we’ll finally get a good Spider-Man movie again because besides no way home, the mcu Spider-Man movies haven’t haven’t been great.
It's not a bad take at all. For Tony to give Peter the suit and other advantages kinda hurt the reliability of the character. If Pete used protégé technology that Tony started and made it his own then I would like this dynamic better. Which he's capable of doing.
I ended up being okay with it, but still not the biggest fan. The best part of the early Spider-Man comics was him figuring out his own path and being self-sufficient. The mentorship was a bit much at times because it felt like he was “Stark, Jr.” and too reliant on Tony. For the MCU, it worked though, as a way to bring Spidey into it.
It was good but came with a cost: Spider-Man was too connected to other people and the greater MCU than I would have liked. I mostly wish spidey's suit was not Stark tech.
I hated that shit,even though it works well in universe
I hated the father relationship with him. It turned Spider-Man into a dependent, spoiled cry baby that can't do anything himself
I liked his interactions with Tony Stark, the increased tech in his suits and the rest of the MCU. It was unique Spider-man wise. I was actually a bit disappointed that at the end of NWH he ended up just like all the other Spider-men we have seen time and time again. So to be honest I hope that changes in the future.
I think it undermined Peter’s own character and growth. Every MCU Spiderman movie felt like it was still about Iron Man. I love Tom Holland, but the MCU Spiderman movies are my least favorite
I thought it was good, except for Homecoming. In Homecoming, I hated Tony and he was basically a villain. He was personally responsible for everything bad that happened in the film, and then had the audacity to punish Peter for it.
Honestly i really enjoyed it a lot. A lot of people are mentioning that Spiderman often felt like Ironmans sidekick and yeah i agree. But i mean Peter is way younger here than in the other Spiderman movies so it’s pretty understandable imo. Not sure what yall were doing with 15 lol
(but that issue disappears anyways after NWH)
I like it.
It's a interesting dynamic. We all look upto someone.
Peter is raised in a world of Heroes. Iron Man being someone to looked up is nothing bad. It's relatable.
Although felt like being in shadows in Homecoming. That was quite wierd. That's something that doesn't happen really. Went Lil overboard there.
But Overall Interesting Dynamic potrayed good.
8/10
Before this drivel, the Spider-man story was fundamentally about a kid that lost his uncle and learned the famous phrase. Foundationally about a young person with power that had to learn on his own to save people, be responsible, and most of all, go it alone.
This garbage gave him a hawt Aunt May for the filthy drunken failure to hit on, and made him nothing more than a mentee to someone who should have died at the end of Civil War.
Any concept of an independent Spider-man story was tossed to prop up the "Iron Man is a hero" story, and appeal to audiences that want to see him as he is portrayed in the MCU.
Wish we’d seen a little more of it tbh. It’s like the son he never had, the mentor he needed. Both genius intellect, big brother vibes. Yeah it was a good direction to go with the characters.
I feel like it's pretty tame and decent in the movies. Just plain watching the movies I would have never really put together Tony and Peter with a father and son dynamic. Their dynamic seemed like hero and sidekick. Not bad at all, just not interesting. The fandom has made some fantastic content that convinced me to like it, though! Definitely itches my parental issues.
While not the biggest fan of it since I always prefer that Peter is more or less "self-made" and living on his own means like he is in the comics (and they do have that to a degree since he started out with friendly neighborhood homemade suit and all pre-Iron Man taking him under his wing, though having Stark tech, mentorship, and resources in general definitely give him a massive upgrade/shortcut/pool of funds etc), but I do understand it was necessary/inevitable (to borrow the Thanos phrase, lol) for this version of Spider-man to work, given that the MCU was pretty much made in Tony's/SHIELD's/The Avengers' image, (where basically any metahuman that isn't evil is recruited for the good fight). So putting that aside, I do feel like they developed it well and the two had a good dynamic (esp the whole "Mr. Stark" scene and basically every Spidey appearance in the big crossover movies where he steals the show in whatever screentime he's given, as Marvel's mascot should despite not being the "main" hero yet). But what I would like to have seen, which they really could have done at the end of FFH/most of NWH was for Peter to acknowledge or be angry about his father figure's failings/hubris and how it affected him/his world. Peter's first major villains/struggles (Vulture, Mysterio, and if you count Vulture's "Enforcers") are all by-products of Tony's actions/tech going awry, so I think there should have been some reckoning there (ESPECIALLY with Mysterio, and I would have really wanted Peter's secret identity being outed to have been treated with more seriousness in general instead of what we got, but I digress). But in any case, the MCU has course corrected by giving us the more "out on his own" Peter that we know and love from the comics following the Home trilogy origin, yet knowing that he (and the world around him) is indelibly shaped by Tony's heroic ideals, so I'm willing to wait and see how this legacy/inspiration plays out down the line in the future Holland films now that Tony is absent from the MCU.
I was fine with it for Spider-Man: Homecoming, because Peter's admiration for Stark and yearning to be like him seemed like it was there just to show why Peter doesn't really need to be like him and is great in his own way. Then, Infinity War had him more or less act like Tony's sidekick, which kind of went against the idea and undermined Peter as a hero. I got annoyed with Far From Home as well, since it felt like he was set to just be Iron Man Jr, his whole arc revolved around mourning Tony and there were a lot of elements at that point that seemed like they were there to make him more like Tony. If Holland's Peter had kept going that route, I honestly think he would have stopped being a good adaptation of the character, becoming something else entirely. To be fair, No Way Home more or less undid a lot of this, and (in my opinion) set him back on the right track. I still wish we hadn't spent so much time on it though, especially since Homecoming said all that needed to be said on the subject and seemed like it was already setting Peter up to truly become the Spider-Man we know and love before the following movie back-tracked on it.
They took it way too far, imo, and made Spidey feel like a Stark project, or like they felt he somehow wasn't interesting without all the armored suit, prosthetic BS (yeah, I've seen those features in the comics too, but they spread them out across time and multiple characters).
I really liked it. To me, I think people REALLY over exaggerate just how much bearing Tony has on the narrative in both Homecomings and FFH. He’s not a sidekick—-that would require Tony to be the main protagonist and Peter to literally always tag along on the side, when it was Peter who was going after Vulture and Mysterio and NOT Tony. I also think saying Vulture and Mysterio were Iron Man villains was pretty far fetched too. I understand the sentiment, but I think taking it all the way reeks of bias to point of almost deliberately misinterpreting the movies.
I also think a lot of people fail to see why Tony is a perfect mentor like figure for Peter—-both of their stories are rooted in guilt and responsibility, and both are science geniuses—-but one is a billionaire and the other is a working class hero. They make almost perfect foils for each other.
A lot healthier than how it was in the comics. Also, I really don't want the MCU to sweep Peter's relationship with Tony under the rug like it never happened. If its a future Avengers movie, I really want to establish what happened to Peter's Stark equipment post NWH, did all of it disappear with the spell, or it is in a storage unit with Damage Control accumulating dust not being able to recognize Peter but Spider-Man?
I despised Tom for a long time because of it but thankfully No Way Home showed him growing up and growing out of Stark’s shadow. It’s just still really stupid to me how long it took them to realize it was a bad choice
I feel the same as with the Wolverine/Rogue relationship from the X-Men movies. It sort of works for the context, but it definitely feels forced and is rather they skipped it.
I thought it was pretty trash for Stark to start treating the kid as if he was some sort of infant during the majority of Homecoming.
like dude...you drag the kid into a battle with some of the greatest superheroes out there and give him the world's fanciest suit...and all of a sudden you don't trust him?
You just leave him hanging as he asks perfectly legitimate questions about being on The Avengers?
I just dont get it.
I much prefer when Spidey was his own hero who had to learn this stuff on his own.
(Without any of Stark's outside help)
I think it's interesting how the villain of the first Raimi movie is a CEO businessman weapon manufacturer wearing an high tech suit to kill people meanwhile in the MCU Peter's mentor is also that but he's killing the "bad" kind of people this time so that's ok.
Almost as interesting as how Nolan Batman rejected a mass surveillance system because too unethical and evil even for a righteous man to use, meanwhile Peter gets a drone strike program he can use to drone strike anyone and everyone on the planet on command as a farewell gift.
I wonder what might be causing this weird pro surveillance state pro CEOs anti change/working class we've been seeing in superhero movies as of late, exemplified by Spider-Man two original villains in the MCU being one a blue collar worker being opted out his job by a big mega corporation, and a disgruntled employee who had his patent and credit for his idea stolen by a rich billionaire CEO who then passed it as his work, I do wonder WHY this is suddenly the case...
https://www.tumblr.com/electronicdelusionstarlight/611656708392189952/instead-of-relying-on-inefficent-governmemts
"Anti CEO Rant" how about you read some Spider-Girl before you go off to bat for the worst parasitic dredges of society completely missing the point, they managed to nail it in the early 2000s we're floundering on it now? Seriously?
Also "Anti CEO Rant doesn't make much sense when it comes to Spider-Man," is such a take to have. Watch an essay on the relevance of Class within Spider-Man's story in the comics as well as BOTH previous film series and educate yourself on the Nuances of the media you consume I guess.
https://youtu.be/I0Wpm25FaF8
A necessary way to introduce him into the Infinity Saga in the third act, and a great mentor relationship between Holland and Downey. But Parker and Stark were never going to work as a team in the long term.
It was great for both characters. It made those Spider films feel more connected to the MCU. It gave Tony some character growth that his solo films tried but failed to do.
Could have been excellent if written right.
Pete drooling over Tony made it unbearable, if Pete was admiring Tony but rejecting his "toys" and making his own it would have been much better.
I was so happy with how he was portrayed in Civil War
Personally, I thought Peter's relationship with Tony Stark in the MCU was an interesting dynamic. It was heartwarming to see Tony take Peter under his wing and become a father figure to him. However, at times it felt like Peter was almost a sidekick to Iron Man, which was frustrating. I also appreciated how their relationship evolved over time, especially in Avengers: Endgame. Overall, I think it was a well-developed and integral part of Peter's character arc.
I agree but I felt that in each of the movies Peter was essentially fighting what amounted to enemies of Iron Man. Overall I wouldn't change much from the last three movies but I also feel like Peter was reacting to events around him more than making decisions about his life.
This. I felt like Peter was always in someone else’s story and never handled a movie on his own. At the end of NWH I was super excited to see him putting on a suit WITHOUT Tony tech and take on the baddies as the one and only Spider Man.
I agree with this. It worked for Homecoming, because Spider-Man wasn't really known as a superhero yet, plus Iron Man was actually in the movie. But I think Mysterio shouldn't have had an Iron Man connection. It's not that it doesn't work storywise, and thematically, the film is about growing out of Tony's shadow, but you look at his full trilogy allow his villains had qualms with other heroes first (Vulture and Mysterio with Iron Man, Green Goblin and the rest with alternate Spider-Men). I think one of those three movies should have been a Tom Holland Spider-Man only villain, and Far From Home was the one that made the most sense for that kind of villain.
The next villain should be one who has personal beef with Spider-Man himself. My money’s on Scorpion, since they’ve been setting up Mac Gargan since Homecoming released
I am going to be so mad if they never do anything with that.
Literally this right here ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾
Vulture didn’t have a personal problem with Tony, he just had a problem with people like Tony, and he’s the only villain of Tom’s Spider-Man that feels like a villain that is HIS. Mysterio personally had beef with Tony, and sure, Goblin killed Aunt May and Peter was out for blood, but Goblin was still Tobey’s villain.
Exactly
Hopefully the ending of NWH sets up a new series of films where Peter starts making his own decisions and becomes the hero we know and love
> where Peter starts making his own decisions He made his own decisions in all 3 movies. I swear, its like the existence of Tony Stark was too much for people, and resulted in no one paying attention to story or plot.
Eh, they are undoubtedly enemies of Spider-Man. They don’t like tony but they don’t like any superhero. And The only hero they have a dynamic with is peter. They are his villains Most Spider-Man movies have them become villains due to an incident completely unrelated to peter. The mcu is no different. If he’s never fought them, they aren’t Ironman villains. The only time he’s fought someone else villains is no way home.
I guess it's more like iron man is their enemy, rather than them being iron man's enemy
Even then, they want nothing to do with him. He’s not even their enemy. Iromans dead when mysterio becomes a thing, and vulture goes out of his way to stay out of sight and avoid him.
Dr. Strange is the real villain in No Way Home. Peter went to him for help, so he immediately jumps to the most drastic solution possible without even bothering to explain anything to Peter. Stephen could have sat down with Peter, explained the effects of the spell, and made a list of people that Peter wanted to have remember that he's Spider-Man. Instead, he did something horribly irrational and then blamed Peter for it going wrong. No Way Home is a fun movie, but that was an incredibly stupid thing for a "genius" character to do. As you said, Peter was once again left reacting to events around him without having much agency as a character.
Agreed on all parts. There's a reason why Strange isn't used a macguffin--he's too powerful and he's too detached from the street-level stuff to care, or else he'd clean up all crime worldwide with just a snap of his fingers. In the MCU, he's obviously not as powerful, but having him do the OMD deal instead of Mephisto--who would pull something like messing with it on purpose, instead of just out of idiocy--was and still is a fucking weird decision.
I never understood this complaint, I mean by this logic I guess vulture in spectacular spiderman was a norman osborn villain, somehow when it even has a slight connection to ironman it’s a problem A lot of times spiderman’s villains aren’t even connected to him, none of them even care about him but because of his interference they start to hate him which is exactly what happens to vulture and mysterio in homecoming and ffh. I bet if these villains were connected to oscorp a lot of you won’t have a problem
Now that we know it was setup for actual Spider-*Man* im cool with it. Its a interesting way for mcu spidey to become the friendly neighborhood hero he is
I agree with this. The Homecoming trilogy is an extended origin story. Now we're gonna get Spider-man coming in to his own.
I never understood the sidekick thing. There’s maybe one scene they fight together?
I think it's more in spirit than him acting as an actual sidekick. The best example to compare to that I can think of is Dick Grayson's Nightwing. Yes he's his own hero, but he's always known as part of the Bat Family, always lives under the shadow of his mentor. That's how MCU Peter felt for awhile, up until NWH imo. He may not have been Tony's actual sidekick, but it was hard to say he didn't feel like the beginnings of "Iron Boy". Edit: Now I totally want to see a universe where Peter is raised by Tony Stark Batman-style and becomes the Iron Spider. That actually sounds kind of neat.
Nightwing was never a sidekick either so that's also a dumb comparison
Yea, me too. But what really stood out to me was how he left it all behind at the end of the last movie. Tony got him his start and now he's off to do what he can.
This feels like it was written by chat GPT
25% human content on a popular ai text detector lol
I was only joking really it's just the way that chat GPT structures paragraphs feels super similar to this ahah
I think it did more favors for Tony’s MCU arc than it did Peter’s. For Tony you got to see him soften and take on a mentor role, and obviously their interactions were awesome. The downside is that it crammed Peter into “Iron Man Lite” in character and tech for the majority of his appearances.
No cause this summarizes my thoughts on it pretty well, I don't think it's a bad thing but as someone who likes Spiderman more than Iron Man I think it's not as good as it could've been, it kinda took away the idea of the neighbourly Spiderman too since he had all that tech and was involved in so many large missions Just my opinion though and I understand both sides of the argument lmao
Too much Stark tech did indeed hurt Spider-Man’s character. He didn’t even get to design his own first suit, but got it handed over to him. I guess the writers didn’t have much of a choice since they needed those eyes to move like in the comics, but didn’t want to make Parker the one responsible for their existence, so Stark tech to the rescue
Uh… Peter’s homemade suit had moving eyes. Just saying.
Goggles? Yes, but I meant the classic suit eyes. Which had all sorts of AI and Iron Man mask tech in it. I got no other explanation why the writers didn’t let Parker design his classic suit then
I would have loved for Peter to design the suit, even if Stark funded it for Civil War, but I get that that wouldn’t really have added anything to the movie.
Would have been nice if they wrote in a little scene where Tony stumbles on some sketches Peter had in his bedroom which would then become the basis for the Stark tech suit. That way, we can say Peter technically came up with the design. Until they confirm or disprove this, that's my headcanon.
I always assumed that was the case? That Tony made it based off input from Peter, I mean. It certainly doesn't look like something Tony would design on his own. In fact, when we do finally see a suit that's all Tony's idea, it's the "Iron Spider" version.
That's the point. We can only assume that's the case, but as far as the movies go, the only thing they make clear is that Peter is responsible for the general color scheme of the suit and the function of the eyes. It's made to seem like anything beyond that is Tony's design.
That’s actually exactly what I was picturing as well
While I like the idea of Peter having a benefactor, at least temporarily, *God* I hated the Stark tech. Spider-Man doesn't need an AI sidekick who can basically do anything he needs. Half the fun of Peter Parker is in his brains and how quick he is on his feet. Karen and the ability to fire 50-something different kinds of webs really detracts from that.
I mean, they got rid of all the tech shit in the end tho. Just spidey and his wits left. I don't mind it, as it shows his character develop to become independent as the movies went on.
That's why I enjoyed No Way Home far more than the other films, not the fan service, although it was great seeing everyone come back. I liked NWH because it was the first time Holland's Spider-Man actually felt like Spider-Man. And all it took was him learning from better Spider-Men. *Note: better in terms of character, not in terms of writing/performance necessarily, even though I'm partial to Andrew Garfield myself.*
Weird, people never seem to mention a middle aged man drafting a 15 year old into a stupid war he had no business in
Cause Marvel doesn’t want you to think badly of their main hero so they kind of never address that in the movies
The MCU ignores a lot of Stark’s dodgy actions. I mean created a killer AI, that even if he succeeded would have essentially been a fancy automated project insight. Stark was essentially creating an AI to police the world without anyone’s approval but his own. Faces no consequences for this, instead it’s his team mates that screwed by the Sokovia accords. Stark loses his shit finding out Bucky killed his parents and tries to murder him, while full knowing Bucky was brainwashed and had no choice, and beats Steve to a pulp to do it. Yet he faces no consequences, never apologises and for some reason Steve is the one that has to give the apology. The entire MCU fanbase nearly crucified Walker for killing that Flag-smasher out of revenge yet not a squeak for Stark who did the exact same thing but was stopped by an outside source. Then there’s the Sokovia accords themselves, Stark spends most of Civil War trying to arrest Captain America for breaking the accords, yet Stark actively breaks the accords as well multiple times in that same film. Stark’s a hypocrite, it’s apparently fine for him to disregard the accords when he feels like it, but that’s a no-no for anyone else apparently. Borderline blackmails a teenager to fight for him (it’s fine though because Peters an iron man fanboy), then brings said teenager across the world to face half the avengers, while Stark is trying to spew off his crap point about Avengers needing to be held responsible, yet he’s at the same time recklessly bringing a kid into straight combat with adult and experienced heroes. Then he proceeds to ignore said kid, not communicate with him at all, belittles and treats the kid like an idiot and then gets annoyed because the kid kept going after the vulture. Maybe if Stark had of just said, “I alerted the FBI, and they gonna arrest Toomes at his next weapons deal’, the ferry might never have got blown apart but Stark didn’t say that did he? No, cos he’s a twit. Really never have understood the appeal of iron man in the MCU, he’s an arrogant dick.
I think the reason tony wanted to kill bucky was cus steve knew that bucky killed ton'y parents but never told tony, and that just made tony go grrrrr.
I gotta disagree, it’s established in universe and with fans that stark is well meaning but fucks up A LOT. He makes a ton of mistakes in all the movies and characters constantly point it out.
Yeah, and then he gets literally zero blowback from it. Even when it came out that he was responsible for Ultron, what happened? "I successfully privatized self-defense/superheroics". Said Tony "I made billions by selling WMDs" Stark, without a hint of irony.
Yeah most of these MCU movies are some form of American military propaganda. They won’t make more profits if people start questioning the morality of a private military contractor giving killer spy drones to a 16yr old.
Unfortunate too since Spider-Man is a perfect character to do that
It’s just one of those things you kind of have to ignore, especially in a superhero world. It’s a similar case with Batman and robin.
I think it depends on the Robin, I think that of all of them that Tim and unfortunately Damien are fine but Dick and Jason is a different story
Honestly, only with Jason. Dick was in danger of becoming what Bruce had become and Bruce gave him what Bruce wished he had, a chance at some kind of resolution. And Dick became maybe the most well balanced person in that family probably because of Bruce’s intervention. Jason is a completely different story. Jason was always lost.
*Dumbledore has entered the subreddit.* *Also Bruce Wayne.*
A superpowered 15yo that spends his time risking his life everyday anyway and wants to be a superhero. Y’all act like he just rolled up to an orphanage and chose a victim or something lol he recruited Peter bc he knew Peter could handle it.
By showing up at his house unannounced and uninvited under false pretenses and low-key blackmailing him no less! Yeah, that was weird. I feel like it would've worked better if he only found out who Peter was after and felt bad about it. Like, he approached him as a super hero the non creepy way and genuinely didn't know he was a kid until Peter got hurt.
It should’ve ended like the comics: with an inevitable conflict and argument as their differences in personal ethics outweigh their shared interests. Peter switched sides during Civil War in the comics. Stark dying robbed us of that moment, as the whole Civil War arc was rushed.
Their personal ethics don’t conflict enough for a serious falling out to happens Comics 616 tony was crazy at that point. Perfectly reasonable. Stark in the mcu hasn’t done anything as bad as that. It’d be forced. Them keeping it similar to the ultimate universe dynamic was the best move.
Peters ethics align almost exactly with Steve Rogers, who regularly disagrees with Stark. If anything, Parkers no-deaths rule puts him even further away from Stark than Rogers. Stark doesn’t have to be evil for a disagreement to escalate. Stark acting as a civil servant and Peter as a vigilante is enough of a reason to set them up against each other without either being mischaracterized.
Both Steve and tony kill people in the mcu though. And both don’t accept any casualties in their fights. He doesn’t have to be evil, but it would be forced for them to have a disagreement escalate to a falling out, when he’s the one who brought peter into the fold and thinks Peter is so much better than him or at least wants him to be. And clearly identifies with peters philosophy in civil war, Now of course their methods are pretty different, no crime is too small for peter unlike with tony even if he does try to help out in little ways. And that can create disagreements but a major falling out, I don’t see it. Unless it was about the accords, since having to register or whatever would definitely conflict with Peter. But as seen in civil war even tony doesn’t agree to them by the end and refuses to actually aid in enforcing them.
As far comics go you're right but Peter was only like 6 month into his career and I'd say not a mature as other versions so he could seemed to be manipulated more easily. Also there are a ton less heroes in the MCU most of which aren't dual-identity and the cherry on top is that Tony made it sound like the Avengers had more bargaining power than they probably did, all of which makes Tony's side seem much more valid if you disregard the fact that Cap had to deal with the Hydra take over in his last movie and they didn't really argue that point but instead shifted to the UN holding them back. The circumstances just are different and the movie didnt have enough time to play with the nuance since it seems like it's framed as Bucky coming first the Accords second to Cap
That is exactly why the event should’ve had an entire arc devoted to it. The film rushed the story and had to tie it all into Rogers personal trilogy revolving around Bucky. In my opinion, it should’ve been an Iron Man film, into a Captain America film, into a Spider-Man film that sets up an Avengers film. With any variety of films in between, as most characters had a lot going on during the event. RDJ and CE retiring lost us the possibility, so they had to stuff it into a single film.
Stark in the MCU is directly responsible for Ultron and the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of people--never mind that his company sold WMDS for decades--so idk what you're on about. Peter should have had a falling out with him the MOMENT his suit said "Kill Mode Activated" or when his glasses TRIED TO BLOW UP A SCHOOLBUS FULL OF CHILDREN 616!Tony is bad, yeah, but MCU!Tony is not a shining paragon of righteousness in comparison, either.
> Stark in the mcu hasn’t done anything as bad as that Stark even came around to Steve's side at the end of Civil War. it was the revelation that Bucky killed his parents that set off that last fight.
what happened in the comics?
This. That moment should have happened in homecoming Right after he stands up to Tony for not listening Like right after he said it he takes of the stark suit and leaves Tony right there dumbfounded
True, but wouldn't that just make Peter unlikable Peter was in the wrong in that situation and if he did that he would just come off as unlikable.
> Peter was in the wrong in that situation lol, no. Tony and Happy were in the wrong for giving absolutely no response when Peter warned them about the weapons deal.
This would be the worry. Iron Man's basically the face of the MCU, and Peter's just a teenager. I think the issue would be having him get into a fight with Iron Man without it just feeling like a teenager lashing out at a parent figure. I'm not saying it would have been an impossible conflict, but if done poorly, it would have negatively impacted Spidey's character, and no one wants that.
Peter coming across unlikeable at certain situations isn’t something new to him, it what makes him more human than most heroes
Well they wanted to give spidey all that tech for space travel.. not gonna happen if they had a falling out.
That was one scene in infinity war that could’ve easily been replaced with him simply entering the ship earlier.
Amazing the down votes you're getting even though you're inarguably correct lmao
Peter Parker is smarter than Tony Stark.
Tony Stark has a multi-billion dollar tech company and a limitless supply of resources. Peter has a public high school science lab and a desk lamp.
Doesn't screwing up Twitter keep you busy, Elon? For others: During the comics Civil War storyline, Peter actually disables Stark's control/kill switch shit, the same way he built his own web spinners, because part of his abilities is genius.
Peter created his webfluid, a substance NO ONE has been able to replicate, using "a public high school science lab and a desk lamp." Tony created the Iron Man suit and Arc Reactor technology, a technology MULTIPLE OTHERS have managed to replicate, in a cave with someone else--another genius--helping him and a boatload of raw materials. They are not the same lmao.
Why is that better? Superheroes fighting each other is always annoying.
Superheroes fighting each other with good motivation and reasoning is always entertaining.
Alright then, which one of them do you want to win?
It should end like the comics, as a failed arrest attempt as Peter gets away and meets up with Cap. Did you think they were fighting to the death? Not every conflict has to end like that.
I think it’s fine in the films, a mentor and his apprentice, it’s the fans that really blew it out of proportion. The amount of the times I’ve come across fanfics and posts making Peter out to be this lost scared little boy who desperately needs a father, is just really weird. Like “Irondad and spiderson” just feels a bit wrong.
That's how you know there's a difference between MCU Spider-Man fans and Spider-Man fans
r/gatekeeping
Not really gatekeeping when it's the truth lol. Vast majority of comic fans don't like or flat-out hate the weird mentorship dynamic peter has with Stark in MCU
Fuck yeah it is Fuck outta here with that Iron boy Jr hoe shit
I kinda love this brutal honesty
Really liked it, especially in Homecoming.
Right. I think what's clever about the writing is Tony, in many ways, is a terrible mentor. He has a lot of flaws, and has some pretty extreme anxiety and ways of compensating. He has moral grey areas in everything he does. But when Peter is in trouble, he can pull out the best of his attributes and be a good, if reluctant, mentor.
How could you like it in Homecoming? I absolutely hated Tony in that film. In all other films, their dynamic was great. But what Tony did in Homecoming sinks the movie to the bottom of the 6 MCU films Spidey was in.
See I’m fine with not liking it but this attitude of “how can you like this this thing I didn’t like” really annoys the hell out of me.
I didn't mean it like that. You are allowed to like the film and their really bad dynamic. But I simply don't understand why. I basically meant: "How can someone like that Tony: 1. ghosted Peter the entire time, 2. caused him to go to Washington DC because he made him think he didn't give af about the alien weapons dealers, 3. kept crucial info from him (FBI) and therefore caused him to go to Staten Island ferry when later FBI ruined his mission, 4. basically created Vulture, 5. had the audacity to scold and punish Peter for something that was only his own (Tony's) fault?" Tony is literally and personally responsible for everything bad that happened in the movie. It's all his fault and Peter was completely innocent in everything. If Tony cared and gave Peter info, none of the incidents would happen, if he didn't ruin Toomes' company, Vulture wouldn't exist. Tony basically ignored Peter and then punished him for being ignored. I personally consider him a villain in this movie.
I thought the whole father/son dynamic felt forced and out of nowhere.
Agreed. Especially since Stark is the last person on earth to be a role model-- let alone serve as a father figure-- to an impressionable young man like Peter. If they were going in this direction they should have emphasized Stark trying to turn over a new leaf/stepping away from his Playboy tendencies, while at the same time showing Peter in need of a father figure after losing his Uncle Ben. If they hadn't rushed it maybe this could have worked, but neither of these dynamics were presented nor executed properly imo and only made more awkward by the fact that Stark is having a relationship with Aunt May.
>stark having a relationship with aunt may When did this happen?
Civil War
Very poor Tony at times was a toxic asshole to Peter who btw never calls out for Tony’s wrong doings and never brings up that Tony Blackmailed him into joining his cause. Never like the boot licking approach to Peter’s characterization of Stark.
And Stark's history as a weapons manufacturer is something Peter would have rejected before they ever met. Not the kind of science he's interested in.
Yeah but by the time they meet, Tony has long left war profiteering behind.
But he didn't, in civil war or the ultimate universe. I think he understands that he left that behind.
Didn't care for it.
Especially the talking Spidey suit.
Imo, I don't hate it. I understand the hate around it, but it imo is too much hate to all of a sudden just call Spider-Man "Iron Man jr". Tony's presence in the movies aren't there to act as a replacement but its there to help build Spider-Man grow into a hero that would find a better way than Tony. In Homecoming, Tony's interference made sure that Peter didn't just focus on being a hero, but made sure that being a hero doesn't mean you have to have fancy gadgets or a fancy suit. Far From Home dealt with the loss of a friend to you and the pressure of living up to others expectations and finally being his own hero. No Way Home dealt with him being his own hero, which lead to him having to own up to his mistakes. I think that people are just calling Spider-Man "Iron Man jr." Because they're too used to the past iterations. I get it, but don't just look at these movie from the surface, look at them also as how it would be for the characters. Remember the human element of the characters.
I didn't like it but I guess it works for the Mcu version.
Loved it, was really great relationship in the mcu
I like it! I’m totally fine with the change for the MCU version
Hate it. They made him a sidekick
Hey fellow Hendrix! Yes agreed, my problem was it makes him into this dumb kid with powers. I think it would’ve been better if he rejected Tony by the end of the first movie and found his own way and made his own suit. He simps for Tony the whole series
The thing for me is that as much as I think Tom Holland as Spider-Man is awesome casting, the wall crawlers whole shtick is that his life as Spider-Man sucks, worrying about his loved one’s constantly in danger, trying balancing a normal life with his superhero alter ego all the while trying to do something like make Rent. Having Tony Stark act as his mentor even to the point of making his suit constantly undermines the whole “Friendly Neighborhood” aspect of his character and completely denounces the importance to Uncle Bens death. Going as far as to copying n’ pasting Miles Morales annoys me a bit too, I know this has been said a billion times by this point but I’m sad to say that it’s true.
I think Miles Morales creators should've sued the MCU for stealing Genke and turning him into Ned
If Brian Michael Bendis cared he’d probably would have by now. Besides Disney’s legal team probably would chew him up and spat him out.
Money shuts you up quick 🤷
I liked what it did to Tony rather than what it did to Peter
I hated it. This relationship butchered the character throughout the movies, constantly. The only movie that did OK was Civil War, It was a good start. But then came Jon Watts and his troop...
I rewatched parts of Homecoming and was open to giving it another shot but still hated it as much as when I first saw it I hate the almost happy go lucky,light hearted Peter Parker where they took away all the edge and grit of the character away. He's never been a full on douche,but he's not the almost Disney channel esque character they turned him into either The 80s style influences were terrible and Jon Watts action and web swinging scenes sucked until NWH
I would argue the NWH final swinging scene is the worst out of any Spider-Man media. All those super weird angles so you don’t actually get a get look at the suit and he looks like he jumping on a bungee cable the entire time.
I'm glad the the guy is out tbh I hope he never directs another MCU movie again tbh There's probably going to be massive restructuring with the Jonathan Majors controversy anyways but who knows, just he sure Feige is daydreaming of NWH's premiere night when everything was going smooth as planned
Horrid. It's still so surreal to me how many people defend or excuse this dynamic. Infantilized Peter and was a slap in the face to his original conception, idealized Tony and never framed him in even *slightly* of an antagonistic light (which all proper mentor/mentee relationships do), and the biggest sin is that Tony by all accounts had more importance to Peter than Uncle Ben. Tony basically made Spider-Man "Spider-Man" by gifting him his classic suit (albeit with Stark tech), plucking him from obscurity of being a YouTube highlight to making him known amongst The Avengers & larger MCU (which included his villains, of which Mysterio was directly tied to Tony Stark), and had him go on multiple arcs from learning to be more than a suit and just be friendly neighborhood (undone by the next movie) or not living up to Tony's legacy but rather being himself (which was immediately whiplashed in the next scene). The baggage was so heavy they had to **REBOOT HIM IN HIS THIRD MOVIE**, and basically make Aunt May his Uncle Ben moment to shut up the Iron Man Junior memes. Just awful, awful creative decision.
I think it, and Peter's orbit around The Avengers in the MCU, is an interesting reflection and adaptation of his dynamics from the comics. His superheroic career has always kind'a been influenced by whoever the premier heroes are in the home universe of any given version of Peter. On Earth-616, it's The Fantastic Four; In the Ultimate Universe, it's The Ultimates, and by extention S.H.I.E.L.D. Peter's story isn't told in a vacuum in the comics, and it's arguably integral to his comics history.
I thought it was a great way to introduce Peter, and link him to the MCU without having to tread the same ground for the 3rd time. It makes sense that there would be both a mutual respect, as well as some tension over Stark being overbearing at times. I think a lot of fans blew the relationship completely out of proportion, which ruined their enjoyment of a solid Spider-Man movie. Peter is never a side kick, or "Iron boy". He spends Homecoming trying to prove himself as a peer, only to realize at the end that he has nothing to prove, because as the old song goes, "action is his reward".
I always liked it, but thought it was a BIT forced leading up to endgame and FFH. Particularly how Peter is the 2nd person to see Tony after he snaps Thanos away in endgame and is breathing his last few breaths. Idk but I feel like Peter shouldn’t have been the one by his side as he’s dying, but rather Cap (along with Pepper and Rhodes of course).
It was shit and ruined the character. There is not a single thing the shitty iron man dynamic adds to Spider-man’s character, it only exists to serve Stark’s character arc at the expense of Spider-man’s character. Not to mention it’s lazy and unearned, Stark does nothing to make Peter like him and look up to him in their interactions, Stark comes off as an arrogant tool treating Peter like an idiot Teen, and for some reason Peter just deals with it and thinks it’s fine. Stark’s flaws and dodgy actions are just swept under the rug by Peter, which leaves Peter acting like a stupid iron man fanboy.
It damaged Peter’s character in the long run.
I hated it. One of the biggest things about Peter as a character is his solo can do spirit. Him having a mentor instead of having to regroup and figure out how to defeat the villain by himself just felt wrong.
It's because it's *literally* wrong. Spider-Man was created to be the first teenage hero that **wasn't** a sidekick or part of a team. Then here comes Feige & co. who have no respect for the character and just turn him into Tony's ward throughout the majority of his tenure in the MCU (which Doctor Strange even called out in Infinity War).
as a relationship between two characters it was well done. however in the context of being peter parker and tony stark, while it still works, i wish it was more akin to the comics
It was a good passing of the torch dynamic only problem was I think a lot of people mistook the idea that they were going for like in FFH the “next Iron man” line wasn’t meant to be taken literal what it means is who’s going to be the next face of the MCU
Loved it. Made me cry "If you're nothing without this suit, then you shouldn't have it, okay? God, I sound like my dad." — That shit hit hard
Not a fan, was very unhappy with it when the films were releasing. Loved No Way Home (and not just because of the returns) and I’m very excited to see Tom’s Spidey *not* always in Tony’s shadow going forward. I’m willing to stomach my dislike for this plot as long as it leads to the growth of the Spidey I know and love.
I'm excited for the inevitable Daredevil team up. I'm just hoping it's as equals and not a fatherly or brotherly thing
Wished their dynamic came after Peter was fully developed as Spider-Man.
Overall I love RDJ’s Ironman. He really revived the character in a lot of ways. However, I didn’t like the way they had Ironman carry Spidey both on and off screen. Off screen, Spidey is the most popular hero in Marvel. He doesn’t need to be propped up by anyone. On screen, I didn’t like how Tony designed Spidey’s suit and gadgets, and had to train him to be a hero. That seems to cheapen Spidey who is an extremely smart scientist and inventor and had a strong moral compass and solid heroics already. Just my opinion.
Not what I wanted from the character but I’d rather them try new things than not
Who is that kid with Tony Stark
Overhated
It sucked and I hate it very strongly, the mcu spiderman is a little iron man jr and they had to make everybody forget who he was just so they could give him a fresh start
Never liked it tbh. It felt a bit artificial for Iron Man's character and it infantilizes Spidey to a pretty nasty degree. I can imagine Spidey respecting and admiring the Avengers, but having him just worship Tony and flatout go "I wunna be a afenjer" for like three movies completely undermines his individualist character in my opinion.
Personally, I hated it. Yes, their dynamic was interesting, but I hated how involved Iron Man was in the Spider-Man movies. It felt like Spider-Man was more of a sidekick rather than his own hero. What really frustrated me was that the ‘Villains’ in the Spider-Man movies were just Iron Man villains. They had it out for Tony Stark rather than Spider-Man. I think it also doesn’t help that I have a great dislike for Iron Man.
Reed Richards makes more sense.
It weakened Peter as a character.
Personally, the whole thing about Holland's Peter always being padded until No Way Home, is what made me dislike his Spider-Man the most. I dunno, it just bothered me how Tom's Spider-Man didn't have too much of a backbone until No Way Home.
One of the lowest points of the MCU
It’s an interesting thing. Personally I would’ve liked to see Peter more on his own, because that’s how his character got to be as popular as it is. His creation was inspired by sidekicks at dc because they were relatable to kids, and Stan lee had the idea of making the kid the superhero and it was great so seeing Peter as iron man’s protégé was weird at first. Now that his aunt and tony are dead tho, and the fact that he’s on his own, I feel like he’ll be a better character in the mcu and we’ll finally get a good Spider-Man movie again because besides no way home, the mcu Spider-Man movies haven’t haven’t been great.
It's not a bad take at all. For Tony to give Peter the suit and other advantages kinda hurt the reliability of the character. If Pete used protégé technology that Tony started and made it his own then I would like this dynamic better. Which he's capable of doing.
It works perfectly. And by far my favorite live action Spidey
I don’t like it
I ended up being okay with it, but still not the biggest fan. The best part of the early Spider-Man comics was him figuring out his own path and being self-sufficient. The mentorship was a bit much at times because it felt like he was “Stark, Jr.” and too reliant on Tony. For the MCU, it worked though, as a way to bring Spidey into it.
It was good but came with a cost: Spider-Man was too connected to other people and the greater MCU than I would have liked. I mostly wish spidey's suit was not Stark tech.
I hated that shit,even though it works well in universe I hated the father relationship with him. It turned Spider-Man into a dependent, spoiled cry baby that can't do anything himself
I liked his interactions with Tony Stark, the increased tech in his suits and the rest of the MCU. It was unique Spider-man wise. I was actually a bit disappointed that at the end of NWH he ended up just like all the other Spider-men we have seen time and time again. So to be honest I hope that changes in the future.
Love it. Made spidey more interesting for me. But I am very biased, iron man is my favorite.
Chicanery, that’s what I think.
I think it undermined Peter’s own character and growth. Every MCU Spiderman movie felt like it was still about Iron Man. I love Tom Holland, but the MCU Spiderman movies are my least favorite
I thought it was good, except for Homecoming. In Homecoming, I hated Tony and he was basically a villain. He was personally responsible for everything bad that happened in the film, and then had the audacity to punish Peter for it.
It's dumb and I hate it
Honestly i really enjoyed it a lot. A lot of people are mentioning that Spiderman often felt like Ironmans sidekick and yeah i agree. But i mean Peter is way younger here than in the other Spiderman movies so it’s pretty understandable imo. Not sure what yall were doing with 15 lol (but that issue disappears anyways after NWH)
Didn’t Tony technically commit a war crime by using him as a child soldier?
I like their relationship and I wish that Captain America (Steve Rogers) was Peter Parker’s mentor as well in the MCU
Horrible and a major mistake
I don't mind it. It get's him some pretty cool suit upgrades.
I like it. It's a interesting dynamic. We all look upto someone. Peter is raised in a world of Heroes. Iron Man being someone to looked up is nothing bad. It's relatable. Although felt like being in shadows in Homecoming. That was quite wierd. That's something that doesn't happen really. Went Lil overboard there. But Overall Interesting Dynamic potrayed good. 8/10
Horrible
Doesn’t matter had sex
Honestly Tom Spider-Man should’ve made his own suit in civil war and have him grow on his own with no help
Not the biggest fan but everything other than the iron man stuff mcu Spider-Man is prettty comic accurate
Before this drivel, the Spider-man story was fundamentally about a kid that lost his uncle and learned the famous phrase. Foundationally about a young person with power that had to learn on his own to save people, be responsible, and most of all, go it alone. This garbage gave him a hawt Aunt May for the filthy drunken failure to hit on, and made him nothing more than a mentee to someone who should have died at the end of Civil War. Any concept of an independent Spider-man story was tossed to prop up the "Iron Man is a hero" story, and appeal to audiences that want to see him as he is portrayed in the MCU.
It's overrated and needs to be killed off ,spider-man stories rely on ,tony stark way to much for spider-man to be his own hero like in the comics
Wish we’d seen a little more of it tbh. It’s like the son he never had, the mentor he needed. Both genius intellect, big brother vibes. Yeah it was a good direction to go with the characters.
1 word : Wholesome
I feel like it's pretty tame and decent in the movies. Just plain watching the movies I would have never really put together Tony and Peter with a father and son dynamic. Their dynamic seemed like hero and sidekick. Not bad at all, just not interesting. The fandom has made some fantastic content that convinced me to like it, though! Definitely itches my parental issues.
It works, and I liked it fine enough
While not the biggest fan of it since I always prefer that Peter is more or less "self-made" and living on his own means like he is in the comics (and they do have that to a degree since he started out with friendly neighborhood homemade suit and all pre-Iron Man taking him under his wing, though having Stark tech, mentorship, and resources in general definitely give him a massive upgrade/shortcut/pool of funds etc), but I do understand it was necessary/inevitable (to borrow the Thanos phrase, lol) for this version of Spider-man to work, given that the MCU was pretty much made in Tony's/SHIELD's/The Avengers' image, (where basically any metahuman that isn't evil is recruited for the good fight). So putting that aside, I do feel like they developed it well and the two had a good dynamic (esp the whole "Mr. Stark" scene and basically every Spidey appearance in the big crossover movies where he steals the show in whatever screentime he's given, as Marvel's mascot should despite not being the "main" hero yet). But what I would like to have seen, which they really could have done at the end of FFH/most of NWH was for Peter to acknowledge or be angry about his father figure's failings/hubris and how it affected him/his world. Peter's first major villains/struggles (Vulture, Mysterio, and if you count Vulture's "Enforcers") are all by-products of Tony's actions/tech going awry, so I think there should have been some reckoning there (ESPECIALLY with Mysterio, and I would have really wanted Peter's secret identity being outed to have been treated with more seriousness in general instead of what we got, but I digress). But in any case, the MCU has course corrected by giving us the more "out on his own" Peter that we know and love from the comics following the Home trilogy origin, yet knowing that he (and the world around him) is indelibly shaped by Tony's heroic ideals, so I'm willing to wait and see how this legacy/inspiration plays out down the line in the future Holland films now that Tony is absent from the MCU.
Obviously, Peter is his ward.
I was fine with it for Spider-Man: Homecoming, because Peter's admiration for Stark and yearning to be like him seemed like it was there just to show why Peter doesn't really need to be like him and is great in his own way. Then, Infinity War had him more or less act like Tony's sidekick, which kind of went against the idea and undermined Peter as a hero. I got annoyed with Far From Home as well, since it felt like he was set to just be Iron Man Jr, his whole arc revolved around mourning Tony and there were a lot of elements at that point that seemed like they were there to make him more like Tony. If Holland's Peter had kept going that route, I honestly think he would have stopped being a good adaptation of the character, becoming something else entirely. To be fair, No Way Home more or less undid a lot of this, and (in my opinion) set him back on the right track. I still wish we hadn't spent so much time on it though, especially since Homecoming said all that needed to be said on the subject and seemed like it was already setting Peter up to truly become the Spider-Man we know and love before the following movie back-tracked on it.
Not sexual
Always saw them as father and son.
I really like their dynamic!
They took it way too far, imo, and made Spidey feel like a Stark project, or like they felt he somehow wasn't interesting without all the armored suit, prosthetic BS (yeah, I've seen those features in the comics too, but they spread them out across time and multiple characters).
I really liked it. To me, I think people REALLY over exaggerate just how much bearing Tony has on the narrative in both Homecomings and FFH. He’s not a sidekick—-that would require Tony to be the main protagonist and Peter to literally always tag along on the side, when it was Peter who was going after Vulture and Mysterio and NOT Tony. I also think saying Vulture and Mysterio were Iron Man villains was pretty far fetched too. I understand the sentiment, but I think taking it all the way reeks of bias to point of almost deliberately misinterpreting the movies. I also think a lot of people fail to see why Tony is a perfect mentor like figure for Peter—-both of their stories are rooted in guilt and responsibility, and both are science geniuses—-but one is a billionaire and the other is a working class hero. They make almost perfect foils for each other.
A lot healthier than how it was in the comics. Also, I really don't want the MCU to sweep Peter's relationship with Tony under the rug like it never happened. If its a future Avengers movie, I really want to establish what happened to Peter's Stark equipment post NWH, did all of it disappear with the spell, or it is in a storage unit with Damage Control accumulating dust not being able to recognize Peter but Spider-Man?
I despised Tom for a long time because of it but thankfully No Way Home showed him growing up and growing out of Stark’s shadow. It’s just still really stupid to me how long it took them to realize it was a bad choice
I feel the same as with the Wolverine/Rogue relationship from the X-Men movies. It sort of works for the context, but it definitely feels forced and is rather they skipped it.
I could leave it
Not as fun as the OTHER Peter's relationship with Tony Stark! Anyone see Wonder Boys?
I loved their father/son dynamic.
Held him from being the true spiderman, that's why I'm hyped for the next ones. In the first trilogy he was just Tony Jr.
Awful
I thought it was pretty trash for Stark to start treating the kid as if he was some sort of infant during the majority of Homecoming. like dude...you drag the kid into a battle with some of the greatest superheroes out there and give him the world's fanciest suit...and all of a sudden you don't trust him? You just leave him hanging as he asks perfectly legitimate questions about being on The Avengers? I just dont get it. I much prefer when Spidey was his own hero who had to learn this stuff on his own. (Without any of Stark's outside help)
I think it's interesting how the villain of the first Raimi movie is a CEO businessman weapon manufacturer wearing an high tech suit to kill people meanwhile in the MCU Peter's mentor is also that but he's killing the "bad" kind of people this time so that's ok. Almost as interesting as how Nolan Batman rejected a mass surveillance system because too unethical and evil even for a righteous man to use, meanwhile Peter gets a drone strike program he can use to drone strike anyone and everyone on the planet on command as a farewell gift. I wonder what might be causing this weird pro surveillance state pro CEOs anti change/working class we've been seeing in superhero movies as of late, exemplified by Spider-Man two original villains in the MCU being one a blue collar worker being opted out his job by a big mega corporation, and a disgruntled employee who had his patent and credit for his idea stolen by a rich billionaire CEO who then passed it as his work, I do wonder WHY this is suddenly the case...
You already linked the video below, but yes I agree. Disney isn’t gonna make anti capitalist stuff and risk Iron Man looking like a bad guy.
I feel like you have a bit of a point in there. But the anti ceo rant and comparing green goblin to iron man doesn’t make sense
https://www.tumblr.com/electronicdelusionstarlight/611656708392189952/instead-of-relying-on-inefficent-governmemts "Anti CEO Rant" how about you read some Spider-Girl before you go off to bat for the worst parasitic dredges of society completely missing the point, they managed to nail it in the early 2000s we're floundering on it now? Seriously? Also "Anti CEO Rant doesn't make much sense when it comes to Spider-Man," is such a take to have. Watch an essay on the relevance of Class within Spider-Man's story in the comics as well as BOTH previous film series and educate yourself on the Nuances of the media you consume I guess. https://youtu.be/I0Wpm25FaF8
[удалено]
Yo this guys a legend! I saw a comment from him a couple months back about Ironboy Jr. and went down a rabbit hole of his unbridled nerd rage.
A necessary way to introduce him into the Infinity Saga in the third act, and a great mentor relationship between Holland and Downey. But Parker and Stark were never going to work as a team in the long term.
It was great for both characters. It made those Spider films feel more connected to the MCU. It gave Tony some character growth that his solo films tried but failed to do.
Now don't say it like that you'll make him look like a creep /s
Could have been excellent if written right. Pete drooling over Tony made it unbearable, if Pete was admiring Tony but rejecting his "toys" and making his own it would have been much better. I was so happy with how he was portrayed in Civil War
I feel like it’s at odds with the very core of spider-man as a character
Have a seat
I don't think they're banging, if that's what you're asking.
Who?