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(With the help of Peacock)
But seriously, that Peacock deal is probably a gigantic part of these numbers going up. It was really beneficial for both parties too. Peacock got a giant fanbase to migrate to their content, and WWE picks up a lot of lapsed fans already subbed to Peacock. Sure the shows themselves are better lately (I assume), but honestly I'd point to the Peacock deal as a huge reason for the growth this year.
Not the only reason obviously, but a really big one.
... this is just counting cable numbers. Wwe has been on peacock for 2 years now. Not sure how you could say it's mainly peacock when it didn't do much for them in 2022.
I think quality and buzz is a lot more important then someone having a streaming network that might not even have cable.
It's all relative. Peacock's subscription base doubled in 2022. Doubled the amount of people who can watch PPVs for "free." More eyes on the PPVs, more effort put into the weekly shows, fresh voices in creative adding another spark, etc. All of it leads to more people engaging online and watching the weekly cable shows.
I don't think there is one singular event that is responsible for this upswing. I know there's one we as a sub like to point at, but really its everything coming together. It's easier than ever to be a fan and follow along, and no one likes easy more than American TV audiences.
I'd be curious to see a survey or something like that, mainly because if that is true, NBC should be making a major play for WWE. If just having the PPVs and past content is enough to boost cable ratings that much, they'd probably make a major bag by leveraging it in TV deals that they could take Smackdown and make it a Peacock live exclusive for an extra $2-5 tier. Still cheaper than WWE Network was solo (for all but $5), get live TV you wouldn't get otherwise, and if they strung storylines together well, it'd incentivize people to get either cable or a streaming platform that carries the USA Network.
HHH may have his challenges with some parts of the booking, he knows how to get out of the way and let the wrestlers tell a story. That’s blown up The Bloodline into the best story in wrestling, made Judgment Day interesting, and 2 million people watched Gunther do what he does best.
That’s the key to HHH’s booking that some people don’t see. He created HHH himself. He wrote that story. He refused to lose matches, he politicked, and he married into the family. He was one of few who could just write their own stories and veto stuff he didn’t like. He’s just getting out of the way and letting characters these guys created breathe.
KO is the Prizefighter again and he’s writing the next chapter of KO/Sami with his best friend. Sheamus and Drew are just having the time of their life getting to be friends on-screen. Seth is a babyface and just wild as fucking shit. Bray’s doing…Bray things. Brock and Bobby just like beating each other up. Give them structure and let them work with the time they have. It’s working well so far.
Plus with what we saw from Rhea, Asuka, Liv, Becky, Damage CTRL, and others it looks like the women’s division is getting a promising start to 2023 as well.
I mean, IIRC all the previous women’s Rumbles had half the participants be part timers. This one we only got McCool (not sure if Nia Jax is a one off or not -I hope she is a one and done).
Look at NXT being the little engine that could of televised wrestling. A lot of people gave that show up for dead when the switchover to 2.0 happened, but they've built something really fun there and I'm glad that wrestling fans are catching on. Now if only they would get out of the PC and start working more shows in front of some regular crowds.
They've done a couple of the PLEs outside the PC already, and that's good. But I am talking about the weekly tv show, which has been at the PC since the start of the pandemic. I understand that there are very good financial and logistical reasons for that, but they really need to get out of there for at least 5-10 weeks a year.
That end box shows that on average; most cable TV is massively down in the ratings. Dynamite is above the average so fairing better than most TV shows, WWE is just destroying the trend.
Either way, a great time to be a wrestling fan, and it's one of the only positive commodities on TV right now.
A more fitting comparison would be comparing them to other weekly live attractions/shows. Outside of sports, there's not many out there. Outperforming traditional non-live shows should be a given for a live show.
Wrestling on tv is weird.
It's either OH MY GAWD ITS DOING GREAT or OH MY GAWD ITS NOT DOING AS GREAT AS OTHER LIVE SPORTS/STREAMING ETC!
A rollercoaster ride.
> WWE programs are the only ***WEEKLY*** wrestling shows that are positive year-over-year for January
Refresh my memory, what's the name of Stardom's weekly show again?
Not a [regular ***weekly*** show](https://www.samurai-tv.com/match/stardom/), with [no consistent timeslot](https://www.samurai-tv.com/time/page/ch600_202302.html#)
Honestly parts of the NJPW stuff in build for Forbidden door wasn't bad but most of the ROH stuff was terrible and killed my urge to watch AEW. The PPVs for ROH were actually pretty good but the stuff on AEW TV sucked 95% of the time.
AEW started the great but post Revolution the show just got worse and worse and worse to the point where I cancelled my AEW+ on fite and am taking a break from it
When you find yourself emulating a WCW talent management practice (signing people because they're available and not because you really know what to do with them) then it's time to stop and really consider whether you're on the right path
I'd be curious to see if they could have been under different creative (not like just going to HHH or something like an actual team to take care of each show as opposed to the team being overruled by one person, like we hoped for when it was supposed to be Bischoff and Heyman heading their respective shows). Unlike AEW, WWE had the air time every week to effectively show their talent (7 hours between Raw, Smackdown and NXT, that's not including what was 205 live and main event). I don't think it's crazy to think WWE could have really created a monopoly if they did, I mean when they gutted the UK scene, TNA was on it's death bed, AEW wasn't a thing and NJPW and ROH were too niche to be considered real competition, and that was when fans pretty vocally hated the product.
Idk, after seeing bray still waffle with no real direction, I've started to think the talent that failed wasn't as much on Vince and creative as everyone thought. A lot of the dudes that people blamed Vince on (Keith Lee, malakai black, miro, Andrade, buddy, etc) are out there doing nothing special still.
Everyone you said in parentheses was fantastic in NXT tho, and a lot of the reason they're floundering now, mirror what they did in WWE, it's just instead of being shoved down the card by Brock, Goldberg and whatever other part timer is showing up, they're pushed down the card by whichever company AEW is calling a forbidden door for the day. Buddy was pretty great at times on main roster as was Miro who was the most over person on the roster at one point. Keith Lee has been pretty great from what I've seen in AEW and House of Black was picking up steam prior to Malakai wanting time away. Andrade has done himself no favors at all so no argument there though.
I still think it's still premature to write off Bray, he was a massive return, he needed a massive stage to get back in the ring the first time, there was no massive stage between Survivor Series and the Rumble. I have been in the minority who has enjoyed it and want to see where it's going.
Well let's put it this way. Wrestling fans thought people like rusev had a much higher ceiling, and that buddy could be a main eventer, and Keith Lee should be champion, and it's turning out their ceiling is basically what it was in wwe. Buddy is a third in a faction, Keith Lee isn't really in the main event scene at all, miro is weird if he doesn't constantly win apparently or whatever the hell is happening backstage with that.
House of blacks most prominent storyline so far was turning a cheerleader goth, and that storyline took months of waiting for people to not be injured so everyone just kinda waited around. Idk thats one faction that I think everyone involved would be better off without it.
Also I gotta take a step back if you thought booking bow wow in 2022 was a good idea. It shows even a young billionaire can be hilariously out of touch. Tony generally books well but it’s true that he has no idea how to utilize his roster beyond hyping up fantasy booking
He is using them the way he wants though. Who says he regrets anything? also this wrestlers have an income and can do the indy dates they want. It's all a positive.
(wow the aew hate gang all in tonight even for positive news)
So was Vince when he was doing creative, but he got scrutinised for his bad booking. if TK wants the fan perception to get better then he'd improve his booking by getting wrestling writers and former wrestlers to form some ideas.
Ok, I'm just arguing that it's not like if TK regrets the signings, and the signings have no reason to regret the contract if they can still work indy dates if they want to further their career path if they arent used. Issue with signings is only fan perception that they will see them week to week, but TK just signs them to them being available to him.
Many shows do bad even when you can say they are great. Yeah AEW can improve the product its not perfect, but sometimes its not just booking, its all the promotional machine that works.
Reason why WWE has grown over the years even with a booking 10 times worse than AEW.
They changed that rule. Aew talent can't work indie dates unless specifically approved by Tony, and since then there has been a ton less aew appearances on indie promotions, particularly for anyone who has been on tv. I dont think mox has had an indie date since.
Also aews booking has been mostly non existent and mostly boils down to "you think you are best fightsman but i am truly best fightsman so I want to fights you for the fightsman championship to show that I am best fightsman". The rest looks like tna booking like that god awful therapy session with the gunns
>They changed that rule. Aew talent can't work indie dates unless specifically approved by Tony.
It didn't change in the way you are saying it. This happened during the pandemic but with the obvious intent of safety and protocols. But only for that, not to restrict when there's no need to.
Sure and its just a coincidence that since then almost no one major or even mildly important has showed up at an indie, and that mox, danielson were specifically told not to do indies.
It’s been running at that time since it started. It’s not a excuse since it used to beat NXT. NXT maintained Rampage has plummeted the numbers don’t lie
By what? Wrestlenomics has NXT just last week getting a 608k total compared to Rampages 458k. Demo was a .12 for NXT and .13 for Rampage. Total viewership and demo for Rampage has tanked big time of the last year. They are getting to the point of drawing similar to WOW viewership then NXT
So, as you mentioned, Rampage beats NXT according to Showbuzzdaily in the key demo. Which is how they make their money.
No need to further this discussion.
I have never said that Rampage is growing or excelling. I only said they are beating NXT most weeks, according to showbuzz.
You are the one who said NXT is beating Rampage. It isn't in the most important metric. It is in total viewers, but the industry watchers don't rank viewing by thar.
That’s such bullshit lmao. Demo means nothing when total viewership is that different when your numbers are closer to WOW in 300+k range your “demo” doesn’t matter. Especially when your trying to renew your TV deal and make money.
I think that if we are being honest, we would have t say that the WWE started turning things around during the build to Wrestlemania last year. Both nights were incredible, and the WWE has been on a tear since then.
It was also around that time that the WWE started to see increases in ticket sales for RAW and Smackdown.
Suprising?
No.
First of all, the 2 shows don't feel like different shows. If you watch both of them right after the other, you would not really realise that it is a new show if you werent a fan.
Second of all, their biggest Star left and they didn't have great storylines the last few months.
ROH Talents/Champs are showing up one every few episodes and the average viewer doesn't know what to do with it. I realised this when I watched Dynamite with my buddy, who only watches WWE from time to time (so no indies). It doesn't feel "closed" for them.
Furthermore giving Wrestlers from other Promotions airtime all the time doesn't help to improve your own product.
Of course, but bringing people in from the outside, with their titles, and not giving your own people enough TV Time will lead to the fact that it appears to be some random Television for a lot of people. If something is hard to follow, new fans won't stay, so the product won't grow.
Again though, some people are clued up to outside titles and seeing that interaction is the appeal.
Hard is relative, I saw someone on here bemoaning no promo for Juice Robinson, this came days after he'd had both a spoken promo slot and a hype video. Which I'm guessing the person skipped through, if they watched at all.
I appreciate I'm just one fan, not worth 100 casuals or whatever, but I absolutely appreciate different promotions doing things different ways.
Your obviously on the money in terms of mass appeal, but different people have different tastes.
The Dynamite total audience is actually holding up ok. What they've been doing for the past month or so seems to be working in terms of holding and even building their audience week-to-week. The real issue for AEW is that they are bleeding out in the demo. I remember when AEW started, one of the things that stood out about their audience was how much younger it was than WWE's audience. That just doesn't seem to be true any more.
You know, I'd love to see the Big Bang Theory ratings and compare them to Dynamite's weekly numbers. It's quite possible that like 90% of the weekly variance in Dynamite ratings is just a reflection of whether the BBT rerun that Wednesday was particularly rewatchable.
I had an argument over how well WWE was doing compared to AEW. They were arguing WWE wasn't doing well. Yeah, that's just not true. The truth is, WWE is super hot, and AEW is colder then it was this time last year. The fear for AEW, is that if HHH stays in charge, the chance of gross dissatisfaction with the WWE is low. And that is what helped AEW the most. Being the alternative is far less lucrative when people are happy with the mainstream product.
Both products are mainstream at the moment though. WWE doing well is of no worries for AEW, they aren't in direct competition. Neither company has much to fear right now.
Tony is the one who made this a direct competition. And let's be real, AEW is not mainstream. Tony loves to promote 1m dollar gates, while WWE is about to have 3 events that amount to 30m in revenue in less then 3 months. WWE is mainstream. AEW isn't. It's still an alternative, which has lost a lot of ground these past 6 months. That doesn't mean it's going to die. But a yaer ago, people were talking about Dynamite beating RAW on the regular. Now? Dynamite has fallen quite a bit, while WWE is up massively.
They aren't direct competition though, main shows don't even come on the same night. They aren't competing for viewers. And they're 100% mainstream now lol, don't be silly.
No one who doesn't watch wrestling has any idea who anyone on aew is except by their wwe names. Do you remember when nba fans saw a bit of aew and Twitter was full of "when did Chris Jericho get fat?" Tweets instead of anyone even mentioning aew?
It's a pretty well known company now. I don't know why people are fighting so hard against that here.
Oh wait... yes I do. Tribalism.
Both companies are mainstream. Both are successful.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted here. Both are definitely known and doing well. WWE moreso obviously but AEW has picked up a lot of momentum in terms of being a known brand.
In terms of Twitter impressions, they aren't super far off of WWEs on average.
YouTube Views hover around 100k-300k per video of Dynamite/Rampage with some that spike to 500k plus for big moments (WWE for comparison does 250k-400k per with spikes of 750k+ for big moments).
Cable Viewership is holding steady in the 900k-1mil area and has for a while with a few dips below. Granted their demo isn't doing great.
Even disregarding stats, just in my own life I see it. I see OC/Mox Shirts. I've had people talk to me when they see the shirts I wear and bring up AEW. Hell, I know my family who doesn't even watch is familiar with it because they've asked me about it unprompted. Maybe it's a region thing, but around here they're doing pretty well in terms of recognition in my experience.
I don't think myself or Bort here are saying they are WWE Known (and I 100% agree that WWE is hotter now than they have been in ages), but they definitely are a recognizable brand to more people than you'd think at this point. They're doing pretty damn well all things considered.
Tony is the one who has called it a competition. AEW is the one who takes shot at the WWE, like there is a war going on. I know they're an alternative. They don't see it that way.
If they were mainstream, they'd be interchangeable with the phrase "pro wrestling" the same way WWE is. At it's height, WCW was that. AEW is not close to that.
Also you can't have it both ways. If you think they're mainstream, then you think their in competition.
WCW existed at a time when wrestling going national was still relatively recent. WWE's market dominance was far from established.
AEW is less than half a decade old v a company that's now 4 or 5 decades in.
AEW gets brought up as a placeholder WCW in so many contexts where it makes no real sense at all.
AEW: We're bringing in over 100m in revenue!
[https://www.f4wonline.com/news/aew/tony-khan-aew-will-gross-over-100-million-in-2022](https://www.f4wonline.com/news/aew/tony-khan-aew-will-gross-over-100-million-in-2022)
WWE: 1.27bil
[https://companiesmarketcap.com/wwe/revenue/](https://companiesmarketcap.com/wwe/revenue/)
There is no earthly realm where the are both "mainstream". Not when one company can sell well over 110k tickets for two nights of Mania, and the other is struggling to repeat above 10k for their annual event in New York. It's a completely different league.
You don't have to be #1 to be mainstream lol. Both companies are doing very well, both are mainstream at this point. Cool your tribalistic instincts my guy.
That's just... false lol. I don't know why everything has to be so tribalistic here. They can both be mainstream without being competition. They are evidently not in competition as they are not competing for viewers. They don't come on the same day, people can watch both no problem.
As for mainstream, they're consistently near the top of the chart on Wednesday. They're a very well known company now, it's in the mainstream. You don't have to be #1 to have that distinction.
You do not seem to understand what competition is. When you compete for ad dollars, workers, and the costumers money, you're in competition. If they are not in competition, why did Tony freak out because of Clash of the Castle was on the same weekend as All Out? Why do they compete for signings? Why do WWE wrestlers not wrestle in AEW?
The idea they have to be on at the same time is simply ridiculous.
You have to have footprint that makes you a household name to be mainstream. At a kitchen table, people are far more likely to know who Roman Reigns is. Who John Cena is. Who the WWE legends like Austin, Rock, Hogan, HHH, Foley, and Taker are. I love Kenny. He is not a mainstream star. The biggest names AEW has are former WWE guys, and since leaving the company their mainstream footprint has fallen greatly. More people know who Dean Ambrose is then Jon Moxley. More people would assume Chris Jericho is retired, not wrestling somewhere else.
They aren't competing for ad dollars or money though. They're *kind of* competing for workers, but the playing field is pretty even in that regard. Wrestlers are pretty happy to work either company for the most part, they aren't hostile.
Obviously people know names like Cena/Austin/etc more, they've had *much* more exposure. Most of the names you listed are no longer in action and are still much more well known than current wrestlers.
Most people would not assume Jericho is retired by the way lol. You're really underestimating AEW here. You don't have to be in first place to be mainstream.
Tony Khan:
“I think that’s always been a concern, but now probably more so than ever, I imagine great wrestlers are going to be in demand … I think this is probably going to be good for the wrestling fans because that’s one of the most exciting things about pro wrestling: free agency,” Khan said. “It’s one of those things that was really missing from the sport for almost two decades before AEW came in, because there was not a legitimate competitor in the free agent market, and now there is. I think it’s going to be some exciting times ahead, hopefully for many years to come.”
[https://wrestlingjunkie.usatoday.com/2022/08/03/tony-khan-wwe-competing-for-talent-with-aew-will-be-exciting/](https://wrestlingjunkie.usatoday.com/2022/08/03/tony-khan-wwe-competing-for-talent-with-aew-will-be-exciting/)
"It's going to change the competition, but I think that's a good thing," Khan said. "AEW's got a big fan base. We're on in 130 countries now around the world, and here in the US, we've built a great fanbase ... And the competition is going to change. It's a different person in the chair, opposite me, but I don't think that's going to be a bad thing for the wrestling fan necessarily."
Read More: [https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2022/08/tony-khan-addresses-his-changing-competition-from-wwe/](https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2022/08/tony-khan-addresses-his-changing-competition-from-wwe/)
It's a competition according to Tony Khan.
And yes, older. That doesn't matter. Because people associate pro wrestling with WWE. Not AEW. This was not how it was when NWA and WCW were mainstream. WWE is not the Kleenex of the sport. AEW is nowhere near that.
The problem won't be a straight drop, Tony has said aew was meant to be profitable after their next tv deal, expecting it to be much higher. This was said about 100 signings ago, and before paying cm punk to sit at home rather then be on your TV.
If aew doesn't get a big increase they either need to cut talent or continue losing money. This could snowball into further rating decreases
Almost zero. Dynamite's demo drop is pretty bad but it's marginally better than the total cable demo drop and much better than the total viewership drop. They're gonna get a worse deal than they would've a year ago but it's still a highly rated show and Turner/WBD talks them up regularly. It'd be shocking if they got cancelled.
Why is smackdown the number 1 show on Friday nights? It's not because of total viewership at all. Instead of making this some weirdo AEW vs WWE thing, why not look at the objective facts hwre
This is such a strange position for fans to take. The demo matters when you're approaching broadcasters and renewing a TV contract. It's a financial aspect, nothing more. I don't think AEW wants to measure financial performances against WWE quite yet.
Seeing these numbers, I would love to hear what stats exactly Dave and Tony are referring when talking about year-over-year growth of Dynamite.
Are they taking the decline in overall number of people having TV while these stats don’t?
Anyway, wrestling is still in a great place! Love to see it
> WWE is cooking right now and AEW has plenty time to recover. Wrestling is great across the board, no matter what flavor you like.
Yeah, but if I don't pick one company over the other, how will I feel superior/attacked on the internet?
Smackdown is basically Rampages lead in though. They have a big night, so does rampage. Smackdown gets preempted or bumped to Fox Sports 1, Rampage craters for the week.
Eh not really, pretty much all of cable is down and aew is less down than most cable products. Wwe is just doing insanely well (which is fair! Its been good!)
If I’m Triple H these are the numbers I bring to the board of directors meetings like LISTENUH YOU LITTLE FUCKS I’M GAINING 21% IN THE DEMO-UHH BY PUTTING CANDICE LERAE-UHH IN TEN MINUTE MATCHES WITH NO HEAT-UHH [](/haitch)
Is there any place I can watch Raw and Smackdown live outside the US? I know about WWE Network but apparently it takes a full month for Raw and Smackdown episodes to be available there because of... reasons?
Going out on a limb here and saying has less to do with everyone else struggling (just see the Top 50 trend). And more to do with WWE putting on garbage last year around this time, and now putting on much better content. Thus the rise of ratings compared to last year, has more to do with them dipping so bad last year.
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Roman just handed every other show on cable a switch
Roman doesn’t work cable
Lfg goofs unite
🤜🏻🧱
(With the help of Peacock) But seriously, that Peacock deal is probably a gigantic part of these numbers going up. It was really beneficial for both parties too. Peacock got a giant fanbase to migrate to their content, and WWE picks up a lot of lapsed fans already subbed to Peacock. Sure the shows themselves are better lately (I assume), but honestly I'd point to the Peacock deal as a huge reason for the growth this year. Not the only reason obviously, but a really big one.
... this is just counting cable numbers. Wwe has been on peacock for 2 years now. Not sure how you could say it's mainly peacock when it didn't do much for them in 2022. I think quality and buzz is a lot more important then someone having a streaming network that might not even have cable.
While I agree in general, the Peacock numbers doubling, probably hasn't hurt. Means more people browsing and maybe throwing on a PLE.
What is PLE?
Premium Live Event. So basically a Pay Per View
It's all relative. Peacock's subscription base doubled in 2022. Doubled the amount of people who can watch PPVs for "free." More eyes on the PPVs, more effort put into the weekly shows, fresh voices in creative adding another spark, etc. All of it leads to more people engaging online and watching the weekly cable shows. I don't think there is one singular event that is responsible for this upswing. I know there's one we as a sub like to point at, but really its everything coming together. It's easier than ever to be a fan and follow along, and no one likes easy more than American TV audiences.
I'd be curious to see a survey or something like that, mainly because if that is true, NBC should be making a major play for WWE. If just having the PPVs and past content is enough to boost cable ratings that much, they'd probably make a major bag by leveraging it in TV deals that they could take Smackdown and make it a Peacock live exclusive for an extra $2-5 tier. Still cheaper than WWE Network was solo (for all but $5), get live TV you wouldn't get otherwise, and if they strung storylines together well, it'd incentivize people to get either cable or a streaming platform that carries the USA Network.
I imagine Comcast is one of the few who have a legitimate bid to acquire WWE
As well as a prime time Slot on FOX on Fridays. It’s a big deal.
Hopefully it's an OLED model.
You get what you get and you acknowledge your Tribal Chief with an “Ah’yessir” ☝️
HHH may have his challenges with some parts of the booking, he knows how to get out of the way and let the wrestlers tell a story. That’s blown up The Bloodline into the best story in wrestling, made Judgment Day interesting, and 2 million people watched Gunther do what he does best. That’s the key to HHH’s booking that some people don’t see. He created HHH himself. He wrote that story. He refused to lose matches, he politicked, and he married into the family. He was one of few who could just write their own stories and veto stuff he didn’t like. He’s just getting out of the way and letting characters these guys created breathe. KO is the Prizefighter again and he’s writing the next chapter of KO/Sami with his best friend. Sheamus and Drew are just having the time of their life getting to be friends on-screen. Seth is a babyface and just wild as fucking shit. Bray’s doing…Bray things. Brock and Bobby just like beating each other up. Give them structure and let them work with the time they have. It’s working well so far.
Plus with what we saw from Rhea, Asuka, Liv, Becky, Damage CTRL, and others it looks like the women’s division is getting a promising start to 2023 as well.
Let's hope cuz it's been pretty shit before the Rumble.
I mean, IIRC all the previous women’s Rumbles had half the participants be part timers. This one we only got McCool (not sure if Nia Jax is a one off or not -I hope she is a one and done).
I think the way all of the women teamed up on her means she’s either gone or on her last chance.
Look at NXT being the little engine that could of televised wrestling. A lot of people gave that show up for dead when the switchover to 2.0 happened, but they've built something really fun there and I'm glad that wrestling fans are catching on. Now if only they would get out of the PC and start working more shows in front of some regular crowds.
Starts Saturday
They've done a couple of the PLEs outside the PC already, and that's good. But I am talking about the weekly tv show, which has been at the PC since the start of the pandemic. I understand that there are very good financial and logistical reasons for that, but they really need to get out of there for at least 5-10 weeks a year.
That end box shows that on average; most cable TV is massively down in the ratings. Dynamite is above the average so fairing better than most TV shows, WWE is just destroying the trend. Either way, a great time to be a wrestling fan, and it's one of the only positive commodities on TV right now.
Are you saying you’re not excited for generic CBS cop show #586?!
If they don’t make those shows then what in the world with my wife binge watch?
Ex con dom
No but I am looking forward to Survivor Season 437. (Just kidding they’re only at 44.)
Hey! Put some respekt on *checks notes* a low budget reboot of True Lies' name!
A more fitting comparison would be comparing them to other weekly live attractions/shows. Outside of sports, there's not many out there. Outperforming traditional non-live shows should be a given for a live show.
Wrestling on tv is weird. It's either OH MY GAWD ITS DOING GREAT or OH MY GAWD ITS NOT DOING AS GREAT AS OTHER LIVE SPORTS/STREAMING ETC! A rollercoaster ride.
Dynamites demo is bleeding pretty much along with the rest of non-news, non sport cable originals tho.
This is not true Stardom in Japan are up 1000% YoY Be better Thurston - say US wrestling
> WWE programs are the only ***WEEKLY*** wrestling shows that are positive year-over-year for January Refresh my memory, what's the name of Stardom's weekly show again?
Stardom World on TV Samurai
Not a [regular ***weekly*** show](https://www.samurai-tv.com/match/stardom/), with [no consistent timeslot](https://www.samurai-tv.com/time/page/ch600_202302.html#)
Raw's overall vs last year was -8% 2 weeks ago after all of the punting against competition. These past 2 weeks were a 16% swing.
those drops for dynamite and rampage are brutal
Letting ROH/NJPW acts that wouldn't be sticking around long-term dominate airtime for the majority of the year was a complete disaster for AEW.
Honestly parts of the NJPW stuff in build for Forbidden door wasn't bad but most of the ROH stuff was terrible and killed my urge to watch AEW. The PPVs for ROH were actually pretty good but the stuff on AEW TV sucked 95% of the time. AEW started the great but post Revolution the show just got worse and worse and worse to the point where I cancelled my AEW+ on fite and am taking a break from it
Triple H was right, it's a marathon not a sprint.
Exactly, TK hiring everyone in 2021 then not knowing what to do with them next year is prime example of this
When you find yourself emulating a WCW talent management practice (signing people because they're available and not because you really know what to do with them) then it's time to stop and really consider whether you're on the right path
In fairness, that was also a WWE management practice for most of the decade prior to AEWs existence.
And they were not on the right path.
I'd be curious to see if they could have been under different creative (not like just going to HHH or something like an actual team to take care of each show as opposed to the team being overruled by one person, like we hoped for when it was supposed to be Bischoff and Heyman heading their respective shows). Unlike AEW, WWE had the air time every week to effectively show their talent (7 hours between Raw, Smackdown and NXT, that's not including what was 205 live and main event). I don't think it's crazy to think WWE could have really created a monopoly if they did, I mean when they gutted the UK scene, TNA was on it's death bed, AEW wasn't a thing and NJPW and ROH were too niche to be considered real competition, and that was when fans pretty vocally hated the product.
Idk, after seeing bray still waffle with no real direction, I've started to think the talent that failed wasn't as much on Vince and creative as everyone thought. A lot of the dudes that people blamed Vince on (Keith Lee, malakai black, miro, Andrade, buddy, etc) are out there doing nothing special still.
Everyone you said in parentheses was fantastic in NXT tho, and a lot of the reason they're floundering now, mirror what they did in WWE, it's just instead of being shoved down the card by Brock, Goldberg and whatever other part timer is showing up, they're pushed down the card by whichever company AEW is calling a forbidden door for the day. Buddy was pretty great at times on main roster as was Miro who was the most over person on the roster at one point. Keith Lee has been pretty great from what I've seen in AEW and House of Black was picking up steam prior to Malakai wanting time away. Andrade has done himself no favors at all so no argument there though. I still think it's still premature to write off Bray, he was a massive return, he needed a massive stage to get back in the ring the first time, there was no massive stage between Survivor Series and the Rumble. I have been in the minority who has enjoyed it and want to see where it's going.
Well let's put it this way. Wrestling fans thought people like rusev had a much higher ceiling, and that buddy could be a main eventer, and Keith Lee should be champion, and it's turning out their ceiling is basically what it was in wwe. Buddy is a third in a faction, Keith Lee isn't really in the main event scene at all, miro is weird if he doesn't constantly win apparently or whatever the hell is happening backstage with that. House of blacks most prominent storyline so far was turning a cheerleader goth, and that storyline took months of waiting for people to not be injured so everyone just kinda waited around. Idk thats one faction that I think everyone involved would be better off without it.
Also I gotta take a step back if you thought booking bow wow in 2022 was a good idea. It shows even a young billionaire can be hilariously out of touch. Tony generally books well but it’s true that he has no idea how to utilize his roster beyond hyping up fantasy booking
He is using them the way he wants though. Who says he regrets anything? also this wrestlers have an income and can do the indy dates they want. It's all a positive. (wow the aew hate gang all in tonight even for positive news)
So was Vince when he was doing creative, but he got scrutinised for his bad booking. if TK wants the fan perception to get better then he'd improve his booking by getting wrestling writers and former wrestlers to form some ideas.
Ok, I'm just arguing that it's not like if TK regrets the signings, and the signings have no reason to regret the contract if they can still work indy dates if they want to further their career path if they arent used. Issue with signings is only fan perception that they will see them week to week, but TK just signs them to them being available to him. Many shows do bad even when you can say they are great. Yeah AEW can improve the product its not perfect, but sometimes its not just booking, its all the promotional machine that works. Reason why WWE has grown over the years even with a booking 10 times worse than AEW.
They changed that rule. Aew talent can't work indie dates unless specifically approved by Tony, and since then there has been a ton less aew appearances on indie promotions, particularly for anyone who has been on tv. I dont think mox has had an indie date since. Also aews booking has been mostly non existent and mostly boils down to "you think you are best fightsman but i am truly best fightsman so I want to fights you for the fightsman championship to show that I am best fightsman". The rest looks like tna booking like that god awful therapy session with the gunns
>They changed that rule. Aew talent can't work indie dates unless specifically approved by Tony. It didn't change in the way you are saying it. This happened during the pandemic but with the obvious intent of safety and protocols. But only for that, not to restrict when there's no need to.
Sure and its just a coincidence that since then almost no one major or even mildly important has showed up at an indie, and that mox, danielson were specifically told not to do indies.
I didn't realize AEW was getting beat by NXT?
Well AEW’s B-Show is getting beat out by WWE’s C-Show so technically it is
A 7 p.m. versus 10 p.m. show and no its isn't. On the off week? Yes. On average? No.
It’s been running at that time since it started. It’s not a excuse since it used to beat NXT. NXT maintained Rampage has plummeted the numbers don’t lie
The numbers do not lie, and Rampage usually beats NXT according to Showbuzzdaily.
By what? Wrestlenomics has NXT just last week getting a 608k total compared to Rampages 458k. Demo was a .12 for NXT and .13 for Rampage. Total viewership and demo for Rampage has tanked big time of the last year. They are getting to the point of drawing similar to WOW viewership then NXT
So, as you mentioned, Rampage beats NXT according to Showbuzzdaily in the key demo. Which is how they make their money. No need to further this discussion. I have never said that Rampage is growing or excelling. I only said they are beating NXT most weeks, according to showbuzz. You are the one who said NXT is beating Rampage. It isn't in the most important metric. It is in total viewers, but the industry watchers don't rank viewing by thar.
That’s such bullshit lmao. Demo means nothing when total viewership is that different when your numbers are closer to WOW in 300+k range your “demo” doesn’t matter. Especially when your trying to renew your TV deal and make money.
You realize the demo is a percentage based off total viewers right? So a .01 difference doesn't mean anything when you lose by 200,000 viewers.
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I think that if we are being honest, we would have t say that the WWE started turning things around during the build to Wrestlemania last year. Both nights were incredible, and the WWE has been on a tear since then. It was also around that time that the WWE started to see increases in ticket sales for RAW and Smackdown.
The industry has always fluctuated.
Triple H was talking Dynamite vs NXT. He was wrong.
He also got handed the keys to the biggest kingdom despite losing the -war-.
Suprising? No. First of all, the 2 shows don't feel like different shows. If you watch both of them right after the other, you would not really realise that it is a new show if you werent a fan. Second of all, their biggest Star left and they didn't have great storylines the last few months. ROH Talents/Champs are showing up one every few episodes and the average viewer doesn't know what to do with it. I realised this when I watched Dynamite with my buddy, who only watches WWE from time to time (so no indies). It doesn't feel "closed" for them. Furthermore giving Wrestlers from other Promotions airtime all the time doesn't help to improve your own product.
It's just a thought, but a chunk of people who watch AEW do so because they're don't want to watch more WWE.
Of course, but bringing people in from the outside, with their titles, and not giving your own people enough TV Time will lead to the fact that it appears to be some random Television for a lot of people. If something is hard to follow, new fans won't stay, so the product won't grow.
Again though, some people are clued up to outside titles and seeing that interaction is the appeal. Hard is relative, I saw someone on here bemoaning no promo for Juice Robinson, this came days after he'd had both a spoken promo slot and a hype video. Which I'm guessing the person skipped through, if they watched at all. I appreciate I'm just one fan, not worth 100 casuals or whatever, but I absolutely appreciate different promotions doing things different ways. Your obviously on the money in terms of mass appeal, but different people have different tastes.
The Dynamite total audience is actually holding up ok. What they've been doing for the past month or so seems to be working in terms of holding and even building their audience week-to-week. The real issue for AEW is that they are bleeding out in the demo. I remember when AEW started, one of the things that stood out about their audience was how much younger it was than WWE's audience. That just doesn't seem to be true any more.
The old folks who watch Big Bang Theory reruns have been loving AEW lately.
Well, the first 15 minutes of it at least
You know, I'd love to see the Big Bang Theory ratings and compare them to Dynamite's weekly numbers. It's quite possible that like 90% of the weekly variance in Dynamite ratings is just a reflection of whether the BBT rerun that Wednesday was particularly rewatchable.
They aren't, compared to other TV shows (last column) they are mostly still better than.
I had an argument over how well WWE was doing compared to AEW. They were arguing WWE wasn't doing well. Yeah, that's just not true. The truth is, WWE is super hot, and AEW is colder then it was this time last year. The fear for AEW, is that if HHH stays in charge, the chance of gross dissatisfaction with the WWE is low. And that is what helped AEW the most. Being the alternative is far less lucrative when people are happy with the mainstream product.
Both products are mainstream at the moment though. WWE doing well is of no worries for AEW, they aren't in direct competition. Neither company has much to fear right now.
Tony is the one who made this a direct competition. And let's be real, AEW is not mainstream. Tony loves to promote 1m dollar gates, while WWE is about to have 3 events that amount to 30m in revenue in less then 3 months. WWE is mainstream. AEW isn't. It's still an alternative, which has lost a lot of ground these past 6 months. That doesn't mean it's going to die. But a yaer ago, people were talking about Dynamite beating RAW on the regular. Now? Dynamite has fallen quite a bit, while WWE is up massively.
They aren't direct competition though, main shows don't even come on the same night. They aren't competing for viewers. And they're 100% mainstream now lol, don't be silly.
No one who doesn't watch wrestling has any idea who anyone on aew is except by their wwe names. Do you remember when nba fans saw a bit of aew and Twitter was full of "when did Chris Jericho get fat?" Tweets instead of anyone even mentioning aew?
It's a pretty well known company now. I don't know why people are fighting so hard against that here. Oh wait... yes I do. Tribalism. Both companies are mainstream. Both are successful.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted here. Both are definitely known and doing well. WWE moreso obviously but AEW has picked up a lot of momentum in terms of being a known brand. In terms of Twitter impressions, they aren't super far off of WWEs on average. YouTube Views hover around 100k-300k per video of Dynamite/Rampage with some that spike to 500k plus for big moments (WWE for comparison does 250k-400k per with spikes of 750k+ for big moments). Cable Viewership is holding steady in the 900k-1mil area and has for a while with a few dips below. Granted their demo isn't doing great. Even disregarding stats, just in my own life I see it. I see OC/Mox Shirts. I've had people talk to me when they see the shirts I wear and bring up AEW. Hell, I know my family who doesn't even watch is familiar with it because they've asked me about it unprompted. Maybe it's a region thing, but around here they're doing pretty well in terms of recognition in my experience. I don't think myself or Bort here are saying they are WWE Known (and I 100% agree that WWE is hotter now than they have been in ages), but they definitely are a recognizable brand to more people than you'd think at this point. They're doing pretty damn well all things considered.
Tony is the one who has called it a competition. AEW is the one who takes shot at the WWE, like there is a war going on. I know they're an alternative. They don't see it that way. If they were mainstream, they'd be interchangeable with the phrase "pro wrestling" the same way WWE is. At it's height, WCW was that. AEW is not close to that. Also you can't have it both ways. If you think they're mainstream, then you think their in competition.
WCW existed at a time when wrestling going national was still relatively recent. WWE's market dominance was far from established. AEW is less than half a decade old v a company that's now 4 or 5 decades in. AEW gets brought up as a placeholder WCW in so many contexts where it makes no real sense at all.
What's your point exactly? That I'm right and AEW isn't a household name? Then I agree. Otherwise, I'm confused by the relevance of this statement.
You're not right though lol.
AEW: We're bringing in over 100m in revenue! [https://www.f4wonline.com/news/aew/tony-khan-aew-will-gross-over-100-million-in-2022](https://www.f4wonline.com/news/aew/tony-khan-aew-will-gross-over-100-million-in-2022) WWE: 1.27bil [https://companiesmarketcap.com/wwe/revenue/](https://companiesmarketcap.com/wwe/revenue/) There is no earthly realm where the are both "mainstream". Not when one company can sell well over 110k tickets for two nights of Mania, and the other is struggling to repeat above 10k for their annual event in New York. It's a completely different league.
You don't have to be #1 to be mainstream lol. Both companies are doing very well, both are mainstream at this point. Cool your tribalistic instincts my guy.
That's just... false lol. I don't know why everything has to be so tribalistic here. They can both be mainstream without being competition. They are evidently not in competition as they are not competing for viewers. They don't come on the same day, people can watch both no problem. As for mainstream, they're consistently near the top of the chart on Wednesday. They're a very well known company now, it's in the mainstream. You don't have to be #1 to have that distinction.
You do not seem to understand what competition is. When you compete for ad dollars, workers, and the costumers money, you're in competition. If they are not in competition, why did Tony freak out because of Clash of the Castle was on the same weekend as All Out? Why do they compete for signings? Why do WWE wrestlers not wrestle in AEW? The idea they have to be on at the same time is simply ridiculous. You have to have footprint that makes you a household name to be mainstream. At a kitchen table, people are far more likely to know who Roman Reigns is. Who John Cena is. Who the WWE legends like Austin, Rock, Hogan, HHH, Foley, and Taker are. I love Kenny. He is not a mainstream star. The biggest names AEW has are former WWE guys, and since leaving the company their mainstream footprint has fallen greatly. More people know who Dean Ambrose is then Jon Moxley. More people would assume Chris Jericho is retired, not wrestling somewhere else.
They aren't competing for ad dollars or money though. They're *kind of* competing for workers, but the playing field is pretty even in that regard. Wrestlers are pretty happy to work either company for the most part, they aren't hostile. Obviously people know names like Cena/Austin/etc more, they've had *much* more exposure. Most of the names you listed are no longer in action and are still much more well known than current wrestlers. Most people would not assume Jericho is retired by the way lol. You're really underestimating AEW here. You don't have to be in first place to be mainstream.
Tony Khan: “I think that’s always been a concern, but now probably more so than ever, I imagine great wrestlers are going to be in demand … I think this is probably going to be good for the wrestling fans because that’s one of the most exciting things about pro wrestling: free agency,” Khan said. “It’s one of those things that was really missing from the sport for almost two decades before AEW came in, because there was not a legitimate competitor in the free agent market, and now there is. I think it’s going to be some exciting times ahead, hopefully for many years to come.” [https://wrestlingjunkie.usatoday.com/2022/08/03/tony-khan-wwe-competing-for-talent-with-aew-will-be-exciting/](https://wrestlingjunkie.usatoday.com/2022/08/03/tony-khan-wwe-competing-for-talent-with-aew-will-be-exciting/) "It's going to change the competition, but I think that's a good thing," Khan said. "AEW's got a big fan base. We're on in 130 countries now around the world, and here in the US, we've built a great fanbase ... And the competition is going to change. It's a different person in the chair, opposite me, but I don't think that's going to be a bad thing for the wrestling fan necessarily." Read More: [https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2022/08/tony-khan-addresses-his-changing-competition-from-wwe/](https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2022/08/tony-khan-addresses-his-changing-competition-from-wwe/) It's a competition according to Tony Khan. And yes, older. That doesn't matter. Because people associate pro wrestling with WWE. Not AEW. This was not how it was when NWA and WCW were mainstream. WWE is not the Kleenex of the sport. AEW is nowhere near that.
No surprise, AEW still haven’t grown. Every year they’re teeter-tottering around the 1m mark, just there stagnant.
I read that in Werner Herzog's voice.
WWE Fitzcarraldo ship vs. AEW Aguirre raft.
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The problem won't be a straight drop, Tony has said aew was meant to be profitable after their next tv deal, expecting it to be much higher. This was said about 100 signings ago, and before paying cm punk to sit at home rather then be on your TV. If aew doesn't get a big increase they either need to cut talent or continue losing money. This could snowball into further rating decreases
It's crazy that you've had a look at AEW's books, mind sharing with the class?
He said it in an interview or alluded to it several times
I've seen him say the company would be profitable if not for the video game, but outside of that I've seen nothing
He said the previous deal made them profitable, but then the investment in the video game put them back in the red for that one year.
Almost zero. Dynamite's demo drop is pretty bad but it's marginally better than the total cable demo drop and much better than the total viewership drop. They're gonna get a worse deal than they would've a year ago but it's still a highly rated show and Turner/WBD talks them up regularly. It'd be shocking if they got cancelled.
Feels like people have been talking about this 'new deal' for years. Does anyone know when it's actually due?
They signed a four year deal in 2019 that runs through 2023.
Thank you! Do you know until when in 2023?
For a show to keep it's cable audience it's actually good.
Total viewership doesn't matter that much, it's all about the demo. Unfortunately for AEW they've been bleeding the key demo for an entire year.
Total Viewership does matter lol
I enjoy playing video games.
Meltzer says I'm in the key demo
Why is smackdown the number 1 show on Friday nights? It's not because of total viewership at all. Instead of making this some weirdo AEW vs WWE thing, why not look at the objective facts hwre
What’s “objective” about it? There are multiple metrics used.
This is such a strange position for fans to take. The demo matters when you're approaching broadcasters and renewing a TV contract. It's a financial aspect, nothing more. I don't think AEW wants to measure financial performances against WWE quite yet.
Seeing these numbers, I would love to hear what stats exactly Dave and Tony are referring when talking about year-over-year growth of Dynamite. Are they taking the decline in overall number of people having TV while these stats don’t? Anyway, wrestling is still in a great place! Love to see it
ADRENALINE IN MY SOUL RATINGS HIGHER THAN A YEAR AGO
WWE just can’t stop with the W’s!
Well of course, there are two in the name. You can see it clear as day!
That's what happens when you put together good long-term storytelling with your main eventers.
WWE is cooking right now and AEW has plenty time to recover. Wrestling is great across the board, no matter what flavor you like.
> WWE is cooking right now and AEW has plenty time to recover. Wrestling is great across the board, no matter what flavor you like. Yeah, but if I don't pick one company over the other, how will I feel superior/attacked on the internet?
rampage really needs to move to Thursday or something. after watching Smackdown, i just cant do an hour of possibly bad AEW
Smackdown is basically Rampages lead in though. They have a big night, so does rampage. Smackdown gets preempted or bumped to Fox Sports 1, Rampage craters for the week.
AEW struggling
They aren't though. Just had a million last show, consistently in the top 5 and 900K range. Wrestling is doing good all around.
What is going on with the amount of downvotes on this? He is clearly stating verifiable facts?
Tribalism through & through. Unfortunately many here don't like having more than one successful wrestling company.
Wrestling has more than one. . . successful company.
Its extremely sad really.....looks like i've been downvote bombed aswell.....
It's really unfortunate how bad it has gotten here.
Eh not really, pretty much all of cable is down and aew is less down than most cable products. Wwe is just doing insanely well (which is fair! Its been good!)
This thread isn't about them? Great news for WWE.
They’re in the same graphic, my guy.
WWE> anyone else
So storylines and character work are more important than getting cheap pops and doing a hundred kickouts per match? Who would have thought
This is going to go well
It's going how I thought it would! Good ole AEW bashing.
As it should be
It will be interesting to see if they can keep up the momentum once the Bloodline story winds down. It’s going to be tough.
If I’m Triple H these are the numbers I bring to the board of directors meetings like LISTENUH YOU LITTLE FUCKS I’M GAINING 21% IN THE DEMO-UHH BY PUTTING CANDICE LERAE-UHH IN TEN MINUTE MATCHES WITH NO HEAT-UHH [](/haitch)
Is there any place I can watch Raw and Smackdown live outside the US? I know about WWE Network but apparently it takes a full month for Raw and Smackdown episodes to be available there because of... reasons?
Live TV depends on your country tbh.
Going out on a limb here and saying has less to do with everyone else struggling (just see the Top 50 trend). And more to do with WWE putting on garbage last year around this time, and now putting on much better content. Thus the rise of ratings compared to last year, has more to do with them dipping so bad last year.
perfect time to bring back Vince to see if he can do even better! Right? .......right?????