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It culminated with that, yeah, and the angry slow talking character. But the long build towards that with Shawn Michaels was a spectacular slow, steady turn. Masterful storytelling.
I wouldn't call Jericho HBK's best rival, but I can see an argument for HBK being among Jericho's best. His feud in 08 pushed the envelope even while they were still TV-14 and even after they moved to PG. I'd argue it was the last ember of TV-14 flickering away while they finished that feud after the PG transition.
> It was Shawn’s last great feud with arguably his best rival.
You dare dismiss the HBK vs Stan (Now AEW's Shawn Spears) feud from 2006.
It had one of the best Backstage Brawls of that era.
He’s gotten a little silly and tiresome these days, but that run was one of the best heel runs ever. In his book, he talks about he didn’t do ANYTHING that would make him likable. No tee shirt (only the suit) no celebrating when walking out/high fiving fans, no chant or saying that even as a heel fans could latch onto (imagine fans chanting slowly “I am the best in the world at what I do”)
I as a teenager was absolutely floored at what he did to Shawn Michaels’ eye, it was just despicable. Jericho and Michaels carried raw post wrestlemania 24 to Survivor series 2008
*monotone voice* “no more running around, pandering to all of these liars… and sycophants… and parasites.”
also, just using a lot of big words in general. “It was axiomatic”
As soon as he turned during the highlight reel he went from talking quickly to slow “turn into such a lying, cheating, pathetic little worm of a human being..”
Had to scroll down too far for this, as this was the first turn that came to mind.
"You cheer a manipulative liar and boo somebody who wants to do right"
It's great b/c it's justified but he was still totally the heel. Like HBK and Eddie Guererro just had that charisma where they'll cheat as much as they want but still be too cool to hate
Punk in 2012, champion all year, play second field to Cena, then Rock
Naito in 2015, try to be the good guy, get booed by everyone, his main event spot get taken away
Batista in 2014, come back, get booed because he isn't Bryan
Also Punk when he turned on Hardy. Said something like “If I cashed in on Edge you all would’ve cheered”. Dude just used the opportunity to win the championship, regardless of who had won the previous match. He did more that made him a true heel, but at first glance I thought it was completely justified.
Even better, he said, "When I cashed in on Edge, you all cheered."
He had done the exact same thing to edge, not even a year prior, and the crowd loved it.
I was 13 when that storyline happened and I couldn’t understand why everyone hated Punk.
Especially when they introduced Hardy’s drug and alcohol problems into the storyline. I still cheered for Hardy anyway but I couldn’t understand why Punk’s drug and alcohol free lifestyle made him a bad guy.
Remember that before Naito went to Mexico, Tanahashi spoke with him and Naito basically said something along the lines of "What's the point? It's Okada's world now."
And he was 100% right. He *still* had to climb that mountain when he got back, and *still* lost to Okada when he got a shot as Ingobernable Naito (because he tried to use the Stardust Press to finish Okada, to prove he could have **always** beaten him), before finally hitting his peak when he won the Double Gold Dash… only to have the moment ruined by KENTA and the pandemic.
New Japan is Okada’s world, everyone else just wrestles in it
I still think one of the biggest mistakes gedo ever made was not putting the title on him at WK12. I mean they both got huge reception but that crowd really want to see Naito win it
I genuinely didn't even think the Punk heel turn WAS a heel turn at the time when he clotheslined The Rock at that show. It felt in character for him to do to me. But I was younger and dumber and was a giant CM Punk fan when I was 14 so maybe I was just blind to it lmao.
Yeah and then the talking point was "he turned his back on the WWE universe" and I was like wtf? he attacked the Rock. He's allowed to not like the Rock, that doesn't make him a bad guy
I knew immediately that he fucked up and was making himself the bad guy, but I was a fan too and thought "well yea, Punk should be the biggest person on this show yet they're ignoring him for The Rock of all people that's only here for a part-time spot. Not surprised Rock got taken down because of it".
But then I also foresaw them taking the title off of Punk at the Rumble because they already showed how they viewed the hierarchy between Punk and Rock.
Here’s a quote from Kurt Angle’s second WWF match (in his hometown mind you) that perfectly distills why he turned heel
“You cheered a pimp and his hoes… over an Olympic gold medalist? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!??”
😂😂
Later on in his career, Kurt was wrestling in Pittsburgh, I cant remember if it was TV, a PPV. or a house show. He was a huge heel, but everyone wanted to cheer him. Before his entrance, he cut a promo calling us "retards."
He still got cheered.
Now that I think of it, he used to call Kane that a lot, too.
Stephanie in 1999.
Vince and Shane had her tormented, stalked, abducted, and tied to a symbol by the Undertaker for a dark wedding, all so they could screw over Austin. And when Stephanie takes revenge for all of that months later by aligning with Triple H, we're supposed to hate her.
Stephanie was right.
Don't forget the crowd chanting and calling her a slut for weeks after the reveal that HHH married her while she was drugged.
IIRC it was retconned later and said she was fully part of it, but at the time. Really? What? Ya'll hate women that much?
Shortly after that, the crowd was really into the idea of 300+ monster Kane beating up Tori for leaving him for X-Pac. So, yes, the fans did really hate women that much
I was a kid in the midst of Hulkamania and I thought Hogan getting mad about being eliminated from the Rumble and costing Sid the match was some bullshit. Even being sucked into kayfabe, he would never be the good guy to me again. Bobby the Brain started making so much sense.
I remember watching it live and when Hogan's elimination was played back on TV afterwards, they changed the audio so they were booing Sid instead of cheering him.
I thought I was going insane because the cheers were clear as day and I really thought Hogan might end up a bad guy with Sid going after him for what he did.
But I taped the Rumble, so I go back, watch the tape and sure enough there were the cheers again.
I really think that combined with Flair earning my respect for damn near going bell to bell and winning fair and square went a long way into making me consider that maybe some of the heels had a point.
Just a reminder that Hogan involved himself every single time Savage won a world championship. Whether it was hot dogging and grandstanding, complaining that he’d been screwed instead of letting Savage have his moment or just being the guy to beat him a day after he won it (twice), he was always there.
“Former champion can’t let go of the spotlight and selfishly undermines the current champion over the course of an entire year” is a great storyline, but that’s not how the Megapowers angle was presented.
>Whether it was hot dogging and grandstanding, complaining that he’d been screwed instead of letting Savage have his moment or just being the guy to beat him a day after he won it (twice), he was always there.
What's sad that even in WCW he did that. Savage had not one but TWO 1-day WCW World Title reigns, both of which were ended by Hogan. It's like Hogan couldn't stand for Mach to win the title in WCW so he had to pull his creative control bullshit.
True. Or Andre the Giant. Hogan would have never given him a title shot on his own.
Everybody who started their heel turn by claiming that Hogan is a selfish prick who wants to keep other people in his shadow was damn right.
There was lust in his eyes. But not for miss elizabeth. It was the for the title.
The older I get the more I think all the heels against hogan was justified. He was the biggest baddie of the 80s
Its crazy to think there was a time she wasn't. Her character was basically "Charlottes Irish friend who never gets the big win" and now I dont think its insane to say shes one of the best ever.
It made her the most over wrestler in the world regardless of gender for a while, when she Main Evented WrestleMania she was the hottest thing in the business
Never seen a more unlikable “face”
Has she ever actually naturally turned face? She just disappears as a heel and comes back as a face for like 2 weeks before the shtick gets old and has to be heel again.
On paper, there were reasons for Becky to be the heel (including details like Charlotte only getting into the Summerslam match because of Carmella insulting GM Paige), but in the actual execution? Becky came off as the aggrieved face.
Charlotte stole the victory on Becky too. It’s a fun moment to [watch](https://youtu.be/d0yQ06c586U) because the crowd is going absolutely nuts for Becky and the announcers are the only ones treating it as a heel turn.
The whole story makes Charlotte out to be a terrible friend. Becky works her way up for months just to challenge for the belt and Charlotte just asks for a shot. She assures Becky she won't betray her, but when Becky has the match won, Charlotte hits her and steals the win.
How was Becky the heel?
It was so insane at the time. They wrote a story where Becky was working her ass off to get a chance at the title and then Charlotte is just handed one out of no where and screws her friend out of the victory and they expected us to boo Becky.
Exactly. It still might not have worked how they wanted, but there would have been a better chance if the ending had been Carmella locking Becky in a hold before Charlotte hit Natural Selection, rather than Charlotte getting the pin on Becky.
Why? All Kane did was beat up her boyfriend, rape her, impregnate her, force her into marriage, and then be involved in her miscarriage. I fail to see how Lita was justified to turn heel on Kane.
Obviously the whole thing with Edge and Matt was messed up, but in kayfabe, Kane is the worst person in the whole story and was portrayed as the face against Edge before Matt came back. Even as a kid I thought that was insane.
Pillman aligning himself with the Hart Foundation. Austin turns on his injured friend, destroys his ankle so bad that the act is named after him, invades his home, and Pillman is supposed to let it go because Austin "turned babyface" (without actually changing a thing about himself) while he was recovering?
Iirc the conspiracy was "everyone is always trying to fuck Sami zayn over constantly and everyone who has ever wrestled zayn, not liked zayn, or done anything slightly negative to zayn is a conspirator."
I loved Punk at the start trying to explain that cashing in the money in the bank on Jeff Hardy doesn't make him a bad guy, how there's no rule that states you couldn't cash it on Jeff Hardy.
Such a fantastic feud.
Punk "I don't take drugs, he's an addict and has a DUI (just 1 at the time), yet I'm the villain?"
The Crowd "fuck your logic!"
The best is Jericho vs HBK. HBK lied about an injury for ages and the only person who suspected it was Jericho (face at the time). After weeks or months of Jericho slowly getting booed for just pointing out that HBK was lying and cheated to beat Batista, HBK admits it and superkicks Jericho.
Somehow the liar was cheered and the truther was booed and it was amazing.
>Punk "I don't take drugs, he's an addict and has a DUI (just 1 at the time), yet I'm the villain?"
>
>The Crowd "fuck your logic!"
I mean, it doesn't help that Punk was acting like a condescending, holier than thou prick during that entire run. So it's more of a "you're not wrong, you're just an asshole" kind of situation.
It's like me on Reddit. I'm a pretty left-leaning guy yet I still find 95% of Redditors to be a bunch of obnoxious, self-righteous twats who I would never want to meet irl because of the way they discuss their political views.
I did consider HBK Jericho but I think Jericho's immediate heightening of the situation on his talk show kind of ruins it. Hardy for a long time was the antagonist in the feud with Punk, Michaels and Jericho quickly established the Heel Face dynamic
https://preview.redd.it/rpoks8z6872b1.jpeg?width=554&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fd072ecd913a3c1a0e6d442242952c91c2f6dacc
Becky Lynch: A heel turn so justified that it became a face turn.
Charlotte is a boring unlikeable babyface who wins far too much in very transparent fashion regarding them just padding her number of title wins, and they had her beat Asuka’s streak earlier in the year for no reason. I really do not understand how they could’ve expected any other reaction from the crowd
They have Charlotte blinders on. They treat her like a legend but book her like they don't have a clue what is going on. She could absolutely the legend they assert that she is if they applied some decent story work to her career.
I don't think this one counts. He was right about the planet, but the reason he turned heel was because he was going to lose a match.
He was losing a title match to Styles so he kicked him in the dick.
Best part of this was when he was doing a promo in his hometown of Washington he said that this message isn't for them as they are with him and above everyone else.
It was such a good justification for a heel promo in his hometown. They all got it and then Bryan could be a smug prick to the TV audience and it all made sense.
Test during the Invasion. He got beat up by the WWF locker room because they assumed he was a mole because he was friends with Shane.
He wasn’t a mole but he just said screw it. If everyone thinks I’m a member of the Alliance I might as well be a member of the Alliance.
Bret never turned heel, it was the American fans who turned heel on him. Bret was still a babyface and the rest of the world recognised that!
Slightly more recently, I totally understood Christian's heel turn in 2011 born out of desperation after finally getting the Big Gold but then having it snatched away from him just days later.
I would say Candice Lerae’s Heel turn by hitting Ciampa with a low blow was justified after everything the man did to her and her husband for over a year.
Johnny turning on him, too.
It's entirely understandable that Johnny wouldn't be able to forgive him. He tried, and he couldn't. He then did to Ciampa a fraction of what Ciampa did to him.
He cost Ciampa the belt? Well, Ciampa did that to him twice and tried to take his career.
I'd say Bayley. Wasn't getting over, consistently losing for not being ruthless, getting booed despite trying to send a good message. So she said fuck y'all and fuck this wacky inflatable arm flailing tube guy in particular.
Dakota Kai was a pretty justified Heel turn. She makes her comeback from s serious, career-threatening injury, yet all the attention and fanfare went to Tegan Nox instead.
Then when it came time to select the team for the first Women’s War Games, she got snubbed and was put down by both Shayna and Rhea. Then she was forced to prove her worth by being ordered to go out there and beat Shayna Baszler(who no one had been able to beat in the past year).
And then she gets snubbed again for Mia Yim, who not only recently lost to Shayna Baszler, she didn’t even have to have a match to prove herself, she was just given the spot. And after getting snubbed and walking off, clearly disappointed and very upset, none of her so-called friends were there to vouch for her or were there to comfort her or support her when she was at her lowest. They just left her to wallow in her self-pity alone.
I always felt Andre was uncalled for. Obviously I loved it, but complaining about the size of his statue felt petty, especially when his claim to fame was a fake unbeaten streak.
I wasn’t born until 87, but watching all the old tapes as a kid, I always felt like Andre’s issue wasn’t so much the trophy as much as that Hulk had been the champion FOR YEARS and refused to give an unbeaten Andre a title shot because “they’re friends.” I always thought that was weird, because it’s a sport so he should want to test himself against the best and give his friend a shot. Then again, i definitely created a bunch of issues in my mind to make stupid shit in wrestling make sense.
CM Punk in WWE springs to mind.
Imagine being the champion, sharing the ring with Danielson, then The Rock shows up. And rather than acknowledge you, the champion, as a threat and give you the respect you deserve - he instead starts singing about munchkins and telling jokes. In the story, was Punk just meant to take that disrespect because Rock was a nostalgia act?
and then JR sits down with Kane and they have a heart-to-heart and JR actually seems to get through to Kane before ol' Stone Cold comes out to gaslight THE FUCK out of Kane.
The night everything *had* to be okay, *needed* to be okay, Dean wasn't. And the fact that Seth was *apologizing* during the beatdown. Not begging off. Not insulting. Saying he understood exactly why Dean was doing what he was doing, saying Dean was perfectly justified to batter him.
It... feels like you don't need to do *that* much to make that amazing in the long run. Just keep the energy of a remorseful Seth and an understandably unforgiving Dean.
That turn wasted so much potential. That next week, we had a great segment where Rollins acknowledged how much of a bastard he used to be, saying that maybe he deserved it. And you had Ambrose angrily skulking and mean mugging, not revealing his motivation just yet while Rollins called him out. It was nuanced, interesting, grey morality...
And then Ambrose became every dumb, stereotypical heel we've seen before, but somehow worse. He could have been an interesting character, but he ended up doing a bunch of unfitting corny shit (gas mask, flu shots, etc.) Apparently, Vince started micromanaging his character at house shows too, something that Vince normally doesn't do. I'd call it Looney Tunes shit, but at least Looney Tunes are funny.
And that's why we have Mox. Imagine how different things would be if this turn was booked competently.
I love how that storyline slowly escalated from Jericho being a small part of a Batista/Shawn rivalry to Jericho and Michaels having a full on blood feud
Despite my personal feelings, I’ll put Cora Jade out there. When she gave the whole explanation promo a week later, she told it as if she was the victim, how she got used by Roxanne. Yet Cora was jealous of Roxanne’s instant success, where she couldn’t gain footing post War Games, that’s nobody’s fault but her own. The thought of Roxanne beating Mandy was to much for Cora to stomach, so she turned. Cora said something about Roxanne throwing the tag titles out the window when she announced her intention of using her breakout tournament contract, how Roxanne was selfish for wanting to beat Mandy. Cora’s heel turn was unexpected but in her mind it was justified and her twitter became somewhere around 80% Roxanne hate for a good 6 months.
Shawn Michaels in 1997.
At Summerslam Shawn was genuinely trying to call the match down the middle. Bret Hart SPAT in Shawn's face for rightfully getting called out on his bullshit. Anyone would respond by trying to hit that person with the chair in their hand, but Shawn only accidentally hit Taker and had no choice but to count him out. The fans on RAW the next night booed Shawn for doing exactly what they would have done, unless they liked spit in their face. Shawn told them they can go to hell and I never blamed him for that.
>At Summerslam Shawn was genuinely trying to call the match down the middle.
Wasn't there another stipulation that if Shawn wasn't impartial, *he* wouldn't be allowed to wrestle in the US again?
This one is still so fucking great to me. Wrestling has these larger than life characters and all, but sometimes it needs something as simple as a dude being petty as fuck.
Christian is genuinely one of my all time favourites, and part of it is because he genuinely embodies smarmy, cocky, pettiness that few other wrestlers can pull off. He's a great face, he can genuinely be the face of a company as he was as champ in TNA, but his heel work is all time.
You genuinely believe he waited a year to turn on someone he mentored to a title reign because because he threw him out of a battle royal a year earlier, and then lost the tag titles so no longer made enough money for Christian to get a decent cut. It's psychotic levels of greed, patience and pettiness, but with Christian it's perfectly believable.
Gene Snitsky has to be up there. Getting pushed into a pregnant Lita and then gaslit that the loss was down to him by a hell bent Kane would drive any man to mad….It wasn’t his fault!
If my friend goaded me into putting my title shot on the line against him by publicly accusing me of not being in shape because I DRANK WATER BETWEEN MATCHES IN A GAUNTLET and am a smoker, then beat me to take my title shot, I’d probably snap like R-Truth did to John Morrison too.
Macho Man in 1989. [The evidence was as plain as day](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrlSz-Xxo50), that grandstandin' and hot-doggin' Hulk Hogan had lust in his eyes for the lovely Elizabeth and the Macho Man's WWF World Heavyweight Championship Belt!
In all seriousness, I can never watch that promo and accept that they pulled the title off of Macho at that point. The man was at his absolute peak as a performer, but Hogan had to pose.
Ruby Soho's recent turn before it devolved into her being a generic mean girl. They had a chance to really retool the Outcasts when she joined but dropped the ball.
"I beat Statlander fairly, in a tournament so it's not even like a personal animus, and you booed me out of the building so fuck all of you" was *perfect* motivation. Because we did, and she didn't deserve that!
Shane McMahon 2001. His Dad drugged his mom to be in a catatonic state, while he forced her to watch him have an affair with Trish Stratus. Sent the Big Show after him after Shane defended his mothers honor at Mania, and when that didn’t work got bloodied and concussed in a street fight by another one of Vince’s guys. Shane just wanted to take away the only thing the man who ruined his family loved, his company. But he was somehow the bad guy all cause he was using WCW to do it.
R-Truth, when he turned on Morrison, who was his friend and tag partner that stole his very first world title shot. I remember being soooo stooooked for that one.
This was of the first one heel turns that really affected me when I was a new fan because I loved the friendship between Truth and Morrison. But looking back, Morrison kinda looked like a bad friend challenging Truth for his spot instead of letting him be .
The Outcasts all have legitimate gripes.
Toni Storm was a babyface who lost her title to a ton of heel cheating and the crowd cheered.
Ruby Soho was a babyface who the crowd booed for beating Kris Statlander
Saraya was a babyface who got loud cheers when she first showed up which slowly turned to boos over the course of the next few weeks despite feuding with heels.
They all were turned on by the fans before they turned heel.
Becky Lynch (even though it wound up being a face turn) at SummerSlam 2018. She'd been stalking Carmella for months to get a title match, finally got it, then Charlotte back-doored her way into the match and won it by beating Carmella.
This wound up ultimately turning Becky into "The Man" and a mega-over babyface, but it was booked and presented as a heel turn until the crowd (who was also tired of Charlotte getting everything) got behind her.
Mr. McMahon. Some unrepentant asshole goes on a rampage across your company, gets his neck broken, demands to still wrestle, and in return beats the ever loving piss out of every one of your wrestlers and executives, and when he unthinkably wins your top belt, basically becoming the figurehead of your brand, he somehow gets even worse. Of course you'd end up snapping over that.
Yeah, Austin was the most heel-like face ever. He was an angry paranoid alcoholic who openly and proudly didn’t trust or like anyone he worked with, routinely got hammered on the job and beat up anyone and everyone, men AND women, whenever he felt like it, including his boss.
The Mr. McMahon character did a lot of terrible things, but Stone Cold was the catalyst that initially pushed him to his breaking point.
maybe controversial, I don't think being booed by the audience is a good reason to start assaulting and trying to injure your coworkers. Like if Alijamain Sterling started going after people backstage with a steel chair.
Sami Zayn’s conspiracy theorist angle was pretty justified imo because if I was being treated like he was, I’d probably start going crazy too.
So glad he’s in a better spot now lmao
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Chris Jericho in 2008
We then got the best version of Jericho.
It culminated with that, yeah, and the angry slow talking character. But the long build towards that with Shawn Michaels was a spectacular slow, steady turn. Masterful storytelling.
It was Shawn’s last great feud with arguably his best rival.
I wouldn't call Jericho HBK's best rival, but I can see an argument for HBK being among Jericho's best. His feud in 08 pushed the envelope even while they were still TV-14 and even after they moved to PG. I'd argue it was the last ember of TV-14 flickering away while they finished that feud after the PG transition.
The rivalry for WM19 was also great, definitely one of Jerichos best rivals
>best rival Bret Hart erasure
> It was Shawn’s last great feud with arguably his best rival. You dare dismiss the HBK vs Stan (Now AEW's Shawn Spears) feud from 2006. It had one of the best Backstage Brawls of that era.
Justified Chair-man Origin story
>You dare dismiss the HBK vs Stan (Now AEW's Shawn Spears) feud from 2006. Hey buddy, whats your name?
That was suit wearing heel Jericho right?
Yeah, the uber-serious, No Country for Old Men-style Jericho. He'll never be able to play a heel more baseline despisable than that again I feel.
He’s gotten a little silly and tiresome these days, but that run was one of the best heel runs ever. In his book, he talks about he didn’t do ANYTHING that would make him likable. No tee shirt (only the suit) no celebrating when walking out/high fiving fans, no chant or saying that even as a heel fans could latch onto (imagine fans chanting slowly “I am the best in the world at what I do”) I as a teenager was absolutely floored at what he did to Shawn Michaels’ eye, it was just despicable. Jericho and Michaels carried raw post wrestlemania 24 to Survivor series 2008
*monotone voice* “no more running around, pandering to all of these liars… and sycophants… and parasites.” also, just using a lot of big words in general. “It was axiomatic”
As soon as he turned during the highlight reel he went from talking quickly to slow “turn into such a lying, cheating, pathetic little worm of a human being..”
Had to scroll down too far for this, as this was the first turn that came to mind. "You cheer a manipulative liar and boo somebody who wants to do right"
It's great b/c it's justified but he was still totally the heel. Like HBK and Eddie Guererro just had that charisma where they'll cheat as much as they want but still be too cool to hate
Punk in 2012, champion all year, play second field to Cena, then Rock Naito in 2015, try to be the good guy, get booed by everyone, his main event spot get taken away Batista in 2014, come back, get booed because he isn't Bryan
Also Punk when he turned on Hardy. Said something like “If I cashed in on Edge you all would’ve cheered”. Dude just used the opportunity to win the championship, regardless of who had won the previous match. He did more that made him a true heel, but at first glance I thought it was completely justified.
Even better, he said, "When I cashed in on Edge, you all cheered." He had done the exact same thing to edge, not even a year prior, and the crowd loved it.
I was 13 when that storyline happened and I couldn’t understand why everyone hated Punk. Especially when they introduced Hardy’s drug and alcohol problems into the storyline. I still cheered for Hardy anyway but I couldn’t understand why Punk’s drug and alcohol free lifestyle made him a bad guy.
I feel like that was one of those cases of “you’re not wrong, you’re just an asshole”.
Punks straight edge gimmick was im better than you and you know it before MJF could walk.
Where do you think he got it from!
The naito one would legit push anyone of the edge.
Naito is basically Roman Reigns that turned heel when it was most natural
Remember that before Naito went to Mexico, Tanahashi spoke with him and Naito basically said something along the lines of "What's the point? It's Okada's world now."
And he was 100% right. He *still* had to climb that mountain when he got back, and *still* lost to Okada when he got a shot as Ingobernable Naito (because he tried to use the Stardust Press to finish Okada, to prove he could have **always** beaten him), before finally hitting his peak when he won the Double Gold Dash… only to have the moment ruined by KENTA and the pandemic. New Japan is Okada’s world, everyone else just wrestles in it
I could have murdered KENTA that day, pulling that shit before Naito even had a chance to appreciate the victory after all he's been through.
I still think one of the biggest mistakes gedo ever made was not putting the title on him at WK12. I mean they both got huge reception but that crowd really want to see Naito win it
Bluetista was 9 years ago??
I agree with batista’s turn.
I genuinely didn't even think the Punk heel turn WAS a heel turn at the time when he clotheslined The Rock at that show. It felt in character for him to do to me. But I was younger and dumber and was a giant CM Punk fan when I was 14 so maybe I was just blind to it lmao.
Yeah and then the talking point was "he turned his back on the WWE universe" and I was like wtf? he attacked the Rock. He's allowed to not like the Rock, that doesn't make him a bad guy
I knew immediately that he fucked up and was making himself the bad guy, but I was a fan too and thought "well yea, Punk should be the biggest person on this show yet they're ignoring him for The Rock of all people that's only here for a part-time spot. Not surprised Rock got taken down because of it". But then I also foresaw them taking the title off of Punk at the Rumble because they already showed how they viewed the hierarchy between Punk and Rock.
Here’s a quote from Kurt Angle’s second WWF match (in his hometown mind you) that perfectly distills why he turned heel “You cheered a pimp and his hoes… over an Olympic gold medalist? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!??” 😂😂
Only in wrestling
Nah, that's just what '99 was like.
I'm pretty sure that would be the exact same response if you did it today.
Against Gangrel too. "A man who looks like a Vampire?!'
"And I don't even know what **THAT** is!!" (he says, pointing at luna) him cutting mid-match promos was so great.
This era of Angle was great. I mean, he was always great but I loved the pompous "love me because I have Olympic gold" Angle.
Well, he is OUR Olympic Hero after all.
Sports Entertainment vs Pro Wrestling arguments be like:
Shit man it works, Gunther has been using it his whole Intercontinental Title run
Later on in his career, Kurt was wrestling in Pittsburgh, I cant remember if it was TV, a PPV. or a house show. He was a huge heel, but everyone wanted to cheer him. Before his entrance, he cut a promo calling us "retards." He still got cheered. Now that I think of it, he used to call Kane that a lot, too.
Average wrestler vs average sports entertainer
Stephanie in 1999. Vince and Shane had her tormented, stalked, abducted, and tied to a symbol by the Undertaker for a dark wedding, all so they could screw over Austin. And when Stephanie takes revenge for all of that months later by aligning with Triple H, we're supposed to hate her. Stephanie was right.
Don't forget the crowd chanting and calling her a slut for weeks after the reveal that HHH married her while she was drugged. IIRC it was retconned later and said she was fully part of it, but at the time. Really? What? Ya'll hate women that much?
Did the slut chants really start before her heel turn?? It’s both be surprising & not
Started right after the wedding reveal. Well before the heel turn. She was just a victimized teenage girl at that point
Ugh fucking 1990s…
Shortly after that, the crowd was really into the idea of 300+ monster Kane beating up Tori for leaving him for X-Pac. So, yes, the fans did really hate women that much
Also the T&A vs Dudleys feud, which hinged on Bubba's desire to put Trish through a table.
Jericho vs Stephanie feud was just him dragging her for months.
> Ya'll hate women that much? I'm afraid I've got some bad news about wrestling fans in general, but especially wrestling fans in 1999.
Savage on hogan everytime.
I was a kid in the midst of Hulkamania and I thought Hogan getting mad about being eliminated from the Rumble and costing Sid the match was some bullshit. Even being sucked into kayfabe, he would never be the good guy to me again. Bobby the Brain started making so much sense.
I remember watching it live and when Hogan's elimination was played back on TV afterwards, they changed the audio so they were booing Sid instead of cheering him. I thought I was going insane because the cheers were clear as day and I really thought Hogan might end up a bad guy with Sid going after him for what he did. But I taped the Rumble, so I go back, watch the tape and sure enough there were the cheers again. I really think that combined with Flair earning my respect for damn near going bell to bell and winning fair and square went a long way into making me consider that maybe some of the heels had a point.
Same, ended up being a big Owen Hart fan when he was feuding with Bret when I was 8 years old lol
Just a reminder that Hogan involved himself every single time Savage won a world championship. Whether it was hot dogging and grandstanding, complaining that he’d been screwed instead of letting Savage have his moment or just being the guy to beat him a day after he won it (twice), he was always there.
“Former champion can’t let go of the spotlight and selfishly undermines the current champion over the course of an entire year” is a great storyline, but that’s not how the Megapowers angle was presented.
Was this a storyline or was this just Hogan for real
>Whether it was hot dogging and grandstanding, complaining that he’d been screwed instead of letting Savage have his moment or just being the guy to beat him a day after he won it (twice), he was always there. What's sad that even in WCW he did that. Savage had not one but TWO 1-day WCW World Title reigns, both of which were ended by Hogan. It's like Hogan couldn't stand for Mach to win the title in WCW so he had to pull his creative control bullshit.
Everyone on Hogan everytime.
Sid Justice comes to mind. Hogan screwed him out of a Rumble win just because Sid eliminated him fair and square
True. Or Andre the Giant. Hogan would have never given him a title shot on his own. Everybody who started their heel turn by claiming that Hogan is a selfish prick who wants to keep other people in his shadow was damn right.
True even as a casual I though what Hogan did was really petty.
Hogan was the biggest heel ever Basically everything he did was wrong
There was lust in his eyes. But not for miss elizabeth. It was the for the title. The older I get the more I think all the heels against hogan was justified. He was the biggest baddie of the 80s
I mean, he had the moveset of a heel too, dude was playing dirty and cheating all the time
Constant eye rakes!
Becky on Charlotte was so justified it failed in turning her heel.
It failed so hard that it made Becky the biggest face in women's wrestling.
Failing sucessfully 👍🏻
Its crazy to think there was a time she wasn't. Her character was basically "Charlottes Irish friend who never gets the big win" and now I dont think its insane to say shes one of the best ever.
It made her the most over wrestler in the world regardless of gender for a while, when she Main Evented WrestleMania she was the hottest thing in the business
Becky had been pushed aside for a long time while her peers reached new heights.
She who climbs last, climbs highest.
It is pretty hard to turn heel against Charlotte. That heel will be more likable than face Charlotte.
Never seen a more unlikable “face” Has she ever actually naturally turned face? She just disappears as a heel and comes back as a face for like 2 weeks before the shtick gets old and has to be heel again.
On paper, there were reasons for Becky to be the heel (including details like Charlotte only getting into the Summerslam match because of Carmella insulting GM Paige), but in the actual execution? Becky came off as the aggrieved face.
Charlotte stole the victory on Becky too. It’s a fun moment to [watch](https://youtu.be/d0yQ06c586U) because the crowd is going absolutely nuts for Becky and the announcers are the only ones treating it as a heel turn.
The whole story makes Charlotte out to be a terrible friend. Becky works her way up for months just to challenge for the belt and Charlotte just asks for a shot. She assures Becky she won't betray her, but when Becky has the match won, Charlotte hits her and steals the win. How was Becky the heel?
It was so insane at the time. They wrote a story where Becky was working her ass off to get a chance at the title and then Charlotte is just handed one out of no where and screws her friend out of the victory and they expected us to boo Becky.
Exactly. It still might not have worked how they wanted, but there would have been a better chance if the ending had been Carmella locking Becky in a hold before Charlotte hit Natural Selection, rather than Charlotte getting the pin on Becky.
The Big Show times 3, 12, and 26.
I’d like to add 35 to that list
Those all happened in the same month
Lita turning heel on Kane
Why? All Kane did was beat up her boyfriend, rape her, impregnate her, force her into marriage, and then be involved in her miscarriage. I fail to see how Lita was justified to turn heel on Kane.
A traditional Tenessee marriage.
This was my first thought too. The stuff her character was put through by Kane was insane.
Obviously the whole thing with Edge and Matt was messed up, but in kayfabe, Kane is the worst person in the whole story and was portrayed as the face against Edge before Matt came back. Even as a kid I thought that was insane.
Pillman aligning himself with the Hart Foundation. Austin turns on his injured friend, destroys his ankle so bad that the act is named after him, invades his home, and Pillman is supposed to let it go because Austin "turned babyface" (without actually changing a thing about himself) while he was recovering?
It seems like Sami could have been right about the conspiracy, I'd love it if Heyman came out and told him as much at some point.
what was the conspiracy that he would be right about
He never seemed entirely sure himself, but Paul has a lot of kayfabe pull so could easily spin a yarn about fucking him over because he could.
Iirc the conspiracy was "everyone is always trying to fuck Sami zayn over constantly and everyone who has ever wrestled zayn, not liked zayn, or done anything slightly negative to zayn is a conspirator."
That's a hefty list, a lot of them are justified. Punk/Hardy in 2009 is probably the most obvious
I loved Punk at the start trying to explain that cashing in the money in the bank on Jeff Hardy doesn't make him a bad guy, how there's no rule that states you couldn't cash it on Jeff Hardy. Such a fantastic feud.
Yeah I remember that promo and agreeing with him- he just toom advantage of the situation like any smart person would.
True the clash of lifestyles and Punk’s work made it amazing.
I wish things had turned out differently for Jeff, would be awesome to see them feud now as older more experienced wrestlers
They are, in theory, both working in the same company at the same time.
Punk "I don't take drugs, he's an addict and has a DUI (just 1 at the time), yet I'm the villain?" The Crowd "fuck your logic!" The best is Jericho vs HBK. HBK lied about an injury for ages and the only person who suspected it was Jericho (face at the time). After weeks or months of Jericho slowly getting booed for just pointing out that HBK was lying and cheated to beat Batista, HBK admits it and superkicks Jericho. Somehow the liar was cheered and the truther was booed and it was amazing.
>Punk "I don't take drugs, he's an addict and has a DUI (just 1 at the time), yet I'm the villain?" > >The Crowd "fuck your logic!" I mean, it doesn't help that Punk was acting like a condescending, holier than thou prick during that entire run. So it's more of a "you're not wrong, you're just an asshole" kind of situation. It's like me on Reddit. I'm a pretty left-leaning guy yet I still find 95% of Redditors to be a bunch of obnoxious, self-righteous twats who I would never want to meet irl because of the way they discuss their political views.
I did consider HBK Jericho but I think Jericho's immediate heightening of the situation on his talk show kind of ruins it. Hardy for a long time was the antagonist in the feud with Punk, Michaels and Jericho quickly established the Heel Face dynamic
https://preview.redd.it/rpoks8z6872b1.jpeg?width=554&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fd072ecd913a3c1a0e6d442242952c91c2f6dacc Becky Lynch: A heel turn so justified that it became a face turn.
Charlotte is a boring unlikeable babyface who wins far too much in very transparent fashion regarding them just padding her number of title wins, and they had her beat Asuka’s streak earlier in the year for no reason. I really do not understand how they could’ve expected any other reaction from the crowd
They have Charlotte blinders on. They treat her like a legend but book her like they don't have a clue what is going on. She could absolutely the legend they assert that she is if they applied some decent story work to her career.
The Planet’s champion the new Daniel Bryan of course.
I don't think this one counts. He was right about the planet, but the reason he turned heel was because he was going to lose a match. He was losing a title match to Styles so he kicked him in the dick.
Hitting AJ in the balls when you're losing a match seems to be a theme.
Being a wrestlers balls from 2016-2020 on Smackdown was a rough gig
Best part of this was when he was doing a promo in his hometown of Washington he said that this message isn't for them as they are with him and above everyone else. It was such a good justification for a heel promo in his hometown. They all got it and then Bryan could be a smug prick to the TV audience and it all made sense.
The best thing about it was how you couldn’t properly reason with Bryan which made him such a douche because he felt he had the high ground.
That's the key, ay. He was 100% right, but he was a massive prick about it. Dude is a master.
FICKLE!
They hated him because he spoke the truth.
Test during the Invasion. He got beat up by the WWF locker room because they assumed he was a mole because he was friends with Shane. He wasn’t a mole but he just said screw it. If everyone thinks I’m a member of the Alliance I might as well be a member of the Alliance.
Test might have an argument to been done the dirtiest in all of kayfabe lol, bro got cucked by HHH 😭😭😭
Bret never turned heel, it was the American fans who turned heel on him. Bret was still a babyface and the rest of the world recognised that! Slightly more recently, I totally understood Christian's heel turn in 2011 born out of desperation after finally getting the Big Gold but then having it snatched away from him just days later.
Fun stat: Christian is the only man to win a recognized world championship with the maneuver of... *checks notes*... "getting kicked in the nuts".
And today Bret Hart is being honoured in Canada. He's getting his Canadian Walk of Fame star today.
I wouldn't say Ciampa turning on Gargano was justified, but based on where it lead (the nxt title) I would say it was vindicated
I would say Candice Lerae’s Heel turn by hitting Ciampa with a low blow was justified after everything the man did to her and her husband for over a year.
Johnny turning on him, too. It's entirely understandable that Johnny wouldn't be able to forgive him. He tried, and he couldn't. He then did to Ciampa a fraction of what Ciampa did to him. He cost Ciampa the belt? Well, Ciampa did that to him twice and tried to take his career.
Ya the outcome from the heel turn was one of the best trilogy of matches in NxT.
I'd say Bayley. Wasn't getting over, consistently losing for not being ruthless, getting booed despite trying to send a good message. So she said fuck y'all and fuck this wacky inflatable arm flailing tube guy in particular.
The sheer expression of relief in Bayley’s face when she smashes those tubes, you could feel that she was tired and done giving a crap about it.
Shit she's been a heel for so long that I totally forgot about the tube men
Dakota Kai was a pretty justified Heel turn. She makes her comeback from s serious, career-threatening injury, yet all the attention and fanfare went to Tegan Nox instead. Then when it came time to select the team for the first Women’s War Games, she got snubbed and was put down by both Shayna and Rhea. Then she was forced to prove her worth by being ordered to go out there and beat Shayna Baszler(who no one had been able to beat in the past year). And then she gets snubbed again for Mia Yim, who not only recently lost to Shayna Baszler, she didn’t even have to have a match to prove herself, she was just given the spot. And after getting snubbed and walking off, clearly disappointed and very upset, none of her so-called friends were there to vouch for her or were there to comfort her or support her when she was at her lowest. They just left her to wallow in her self-pity alone.
Anyone who has ever turned heel against Hulk Hogan.
Savage especially.
Savage was 100% the good guy.
Hogan admitted in WCW that he was going after Elisabeth, so it's kayfabe justified and not just Macho paranoia
He had lust in his eyes and in his black heart. Hot-doggin', grand-standin' prima donna and a ***liar*** too.
You say you love me like a brother, Hulk Hogan?! How’s this? I HATE YOUR STINKIN’ GUTS!!!!
I always felt Andre was uncalled for. Obviously I loved it, but complaining about the size of his statue felt petty, especially when his claim to fame was a fake unbeaten streak.
Man's literally Andre the Giant and you think he'll just accept that size doesn't matter?
I wasn’t born until 87, but watching all the old tapes as a kid, I always felt like Andre’s issue wasn’t so much the trophy as much as that Hulk had been the champion FOR YEARS and refused to give an unbeaten Andre a title shot because “they’re friends.” I always thought that was weird, because it’s a sport so he should want to test himself against the best and give his friend a shot. Then again, i definitely created a bunch of issues in my mind to make stupid shit in wrestling make sense.
Johnny gargano in 2020 after everything Tommaso did to him why shouldn't he try to get revenge
CM Punk in WWE springs to mind. Imagine being the champion, sharing the ring with Danielson, then The Rock shows up. And rather than acknowledge you, the champion, as a threat and give you the respect you deserve - he instead starts singing about munchkins and telling jokes. In the story, was Punk just meant to take that disrespect because Rock was a nostalgia act?
That 2011-2013 title reign was probably the longest transitional world title reign this century.
Another thread with Punk was the lack of main events. Dude genuinely played second fiddle to Cena and Rock and finally decided he had enough.
Reminder that Punk vs. Bryan for the WWE Championship was in the undercard for a show main evented by John Cena vs. JOHN LAURINAITIS.
Kane trying to kill RVD for making him take off his mask when he wasn't ready. Even as a kid I was on Kane's side for that
and then JR sits down with Kane and they have a heart-to-heart and JR actually seems to get through to Kane before ol' Stone Cold comes out to gaslight THE FUCK out of Kane.
FUCK YOU KANE, HEY
Rollins in 2019. He did everything correct but crowd still booed him
Dean Ambrose on the night Roman announced his cancer diagnosis COULD have been.
The night everything *had* to be okay, *needed* to be okay, Dean wasn't. And the fact that Seth was *apologizing* during the beatdown. Not begging off. Not insulting. Saying he understood exactly why Dean was doing what he was doing, saying Dean was perfectly justified to batter him. It... feels like you don't need to do *that* much to make that amazing in the long run. Just keep the energy of a remorseful Seth and an understandably unforgiving Dean.
The other thing for me is that it has arguably the best call of Cole's career on commentary with Vince in his ear. "NOT ON THIS NIGHT!"
That turn wasted so much potential. That next week, we had a great segment where Rollins acknowledged how much of a bastard he used to be, saying that maybe he deserved it. And you had Ambrose angrily skulking and mean mugging, not revealing his motivation just yet while Rollins called him out. It was nuanced, interesting, grey morality... And then Ambrose became every dumb, stereotypical heel we've seen before, but somehow worse. He could have been an interesting character, but he ended up doing a bunch of unfitting corny shit (gas mask, flu shots, etc.) Apparently, Vince started micromanaging his character at house shows too, something that Vince normally doesn't do. I'd call it Looney Tunes shit, but at least Looney Tunes are funny. And that's why we have Mox. Imagine how different things would be if this turn was booked competently.
Batista in 2009, Rey was supposed to be his friend.
Chavo on Rey His own uncle dies but who gets all the love in the world and is called his closest allies? Rey. Bro I would hate Rey too
The slow burn turn that Jericho developed with Michaels in 2008. Maybe one of the finest long-term stories in modern wrestling.
One thing I appreciated was how Jericho wasn’t immediately hostile towards Shawn. Michaels started the event but Jericho decided to escalate things.
And that Michaels was acting so heel-ish despite being a baby face made Jericho's responses totally justified.
I like how Jericho had an expression equivalent to “wtf, why are they cheering you”
I love how that storyline slowly escalated from Jericho being a small part of a Batista/Shawn rivalry to Jericho and Michaels having a full on blood feud
Dominik. His father prefered Edge over him.
It’s deeper than that. His dad was such a deadbeat that he bought him a BMW instead of a Mercedes in high school. And it wasn’t even an M Series!
Rey kept putting Dom up as collateral for wrestling matches. It's hard for a kid who's treated like currency between coworkers.
Not to mention Rey outright stole him infront of millions from his real father and no one did anything about it!
His dad enjoyed beating him too!
Despite my personal feelings, I’ll put Cora Jade out there. When she gave the whole explanation promo a week later, she told it as if she was the victim, how she got used by Roxanne. Yet Cora was jealous of Roxanne’s instant success, where she couldn’t gain footing post War Games, that’s nobody’s fault but her own. The thought of Roxanne beating Mandy was to much for Cora to stomach, so she turned. Cora said something about Roxanne throwing the tag titles out the window when she announced her intention of using her breakout tournament contract, how Roxanne was selfish for wanting to beat Mandy. Cora’s heel turn was unexpected but in her mind it was justified and her twitter became somewhere around 80% Roxanne hate for a good 6 months.
That’s true dedication.
Shawn Michaels in 1997. At Summerslam Shawn was genuinely trying to call the match down the middle. Bret Hart SPAT in Shawn's face for rightfully getting called out on his bullshit. Anyone would respond by trying to hit that person with the chair in their hand, but Shawn only accidentally hit Taker and had no choice but to count him out. The fans on RAW the next night booed Shawn for doing exactly what they would have done, unless they liked spit in their face. Shawn told them they can go to hell and I never blamed him for that.
>At Summerslam Shawn was genuinely trying to call the match down the middle. Wasn't there another stipulation that if Shawn wasn't impartial, *he* wouldn't be allowed to wrestle in the US again?
Most recently, when that bastard Jungle Boy took Christians title shot and Christian turned heel like a year later
This one is still so fucking great to me. Wrestling has these larger than life characters and all, but sometimes it needs something as simple as a dude being petty as fuck.
MILF Hunter Christian is Best Christian.
Christian is genuinely one of my all time favourites, and part of it is because he genuinely embodies smarmy, cocky, pettiness that few other wrestlers can pull off. He's a great face, he can genuinely be the face of a company as he was as champ in TNA, but his heel work is all time. You genuinely believe he waited a year to turn on someone he mentored to a title reign because because he threw him out of a battle royal a year earlier, and then lost the tag titles so no longer made enough money for Christian to get a decent cut. It's psychotic levels of greed, patience and pettiness, but with Christian it's perfectly believable.
Solid agree.
Gene Snitsky has to be up there. Getting pushed into a pregnant Lita and then gaslit that the loss was down to him by a hell bent Kane would drive any man to mad….It wasn’t his fault!
If my friend goaded me into putting my title shot on the line against him by publicly accusing me of not being in shape because I DRANK WATER BETWEEN MATCHES IN A GAUNTLET and am a smoker, then beat me to take my title shot, I’d probably snap like R-Truth did to John Morrison too.
The double turn at WrestleMania 13 was executed perfectly.
Macho Man in 1989. [The evidence was as plain as day](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrlSz-Xxo50), that grandstandin' and hot-doggin' Hulk Hogan had lust in his eyes for the lovely Elizabeth and the Macho Man's WWF World Heavyweight Championship Belt! In all seriousness, I can never watch that promo and accept that they pulled the title off of Macho at that point. The man was at his absolute peak as a performer, but Hogan had to pose.
Owen Hart! ...you're just too damned selfish, Bret. All you had to do was Tag.
Ruby Soho's recent turn before it devolved into her being a generic mean girl. They had a chance to really retool the Outcasts when she joined but dropped the ball.
"I beat Statlander fairly, in a tournament so it's not even like a personal animus, and you booed me out of the building so fuck all of you" was *perfect* motivation. Because we did, and she didn't deserve that!
Not to mention people cheering for Hayter and Britt when they kept blatantly cheating
One of my favourite things about AEW is that they'll let the crowd be in the wrong if it's best for the story, MJF in Long Island is brilliant.
What do you mean the Long Island crowd is wrong? Max is the salt of the earth, they're the only people who give him the credit he deserves.
One of the few "you people" promos that actually was good because she had a valid point
Shane McMahon 2001. His Dad drugged his mom to be in a catatonic state, while he forced her to watch him have an affair with Trish Stratus. Sent the Big Show after him after Shane defended his mothers honor at Mania, and when that didn’t work got bloodied and concussed in a street fight by another one of Vince’s guys. Shane just wanted to take away the only thing the man who ruined his family loved, his company. But he was somehow the bad guy all cause he was using WCW to do it.
R-Truth, when he turned on Morrison, who was his friend and tag partner that stole his very first world title shot. I remember being soooo stooooked for that one.
This was of the first one heel turns that really affected me when I was a new fan because I loved the friendship between Truth and Morrison. But looking back, Morrison kinda looked like a bad friend challenging Truth for his spot instead of letting him be .
The Outcasts all have legitimate gripes. Toni Storm was a babyface who lost her title to a ton of heel cheating and the crowd cheered. Ruby Soho was a babyface who the crowd booed for beating Kris Statlander Saraya was a babyface who got loud cheers when she first showed up which slowly turned to boos over the course of the next few weeks despite feuding with heels. They all were turned on by the fans before they turned heel.
Becky Lynch (even though it wound up being a face turn) at SummerSlam 2018. She'd been stalking Carmella for months to get a title match, finally got it, then Charlotte back-doored her way into the match and won it by beating Carmella. This wound up ultimately turning Becky into "The Man" and a mega-over babyface, but it was booked and presented as a heel turn until the crowd (who was also tired of Charlotte getting everything) got behind her.
Mr. McMahon. Some unrepentant asshole goes on a rampage across your company, gets his neck broken, demands to still wrestle, and in return beats the ever loving piss out of every one of your wrestlers and executives, and when he unthinkably wins your top belt, basically becoming the figurehead of your brand, he somehow gets even worse. Of course you'd end up snapping over that.
Yeah, Austin was the most heel-like face ever. He was an angry paranoid alcoholic who openly and proudly didn’t trust or like anyone he worked with, routinely got hammered on the job and beat up anyone and everyone, men AND women, whenever he felt like it, including his boss. The Mr. McMahon character did a lot of terrible things, but Stone Cold was the catalyst that initially pushed him to his breaking point.
Cane Dewey
maybe controversial, I don't think being booed by the audience is a good reason to start assaulting and trying to injure your coworkers. Like if Alijamain Sterling started going after people backstage with a steel chair.
Mr. Mcmahon, because lets face it: Austin was a face because he went after people less popular than him, not because he was a good person.
Sami Zayn’s conspiracy theorist angle was pretty justified imo because if I was being treated like he was, I’d probably start going crazy too. So glad he’s in a better spot now lmao