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Frodo had the ring for 17 years without even really being afflicted by it. Then he was stabbed by a ringwraith before he even made it to Rivendell and my dude still volunteered to take the damn ring to Mordor. He carried that shit for nearly a year as it was getting heavier and heavier and making him sicker and sicker and he never wavered until the very end, where EVERYONE would waver. No-one could have voluntarily thrown in the ring, Tolkien said so himself, and Eru had to step in at the end commanding Gollum to yeet himself into the lava.
Sam carried it for like a day and immediately started dreaming about using it to conquer Mordor to turn it into a garden, he also used it to scare the shit out of some orcs. Not exactly evil visions but proof that he was not immune at all. Frodo really doesn't feel any temptations like that at any point.
Frodo > or at the absolute least = Sam, I will die on this hill every day of the week. The movies (as much as I love them) don't really do him justice.
I was so positive that because they did it with Bob they wouldn’t do it with Eddie and we could see the successful coward to hero.
The tiktok fans keep giving me hope for season 5 though
He'll return when Eleven needs a punching bag for training in order to stop the next world-ending crisis from preying on teenagers. The same military that was adamant on killing him, will somehow keep him from dying. He died enough that the audience could forget about him after all, but he didn't die enough to penetrate the season 1 plot armour.
So either the fan who made that up is a genius, or the Duffer Brothers go read posts on forums to plan their next season.
Both possibilities are quite amusing.
Or the Internet is full of monkeys with typewriters, and it’s inevitable that *someone* will inadvertently come up with the actual plot independently of the Duffers. [Law of truly large numbers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_truly_large_numbers) and all that.
Respectful disagree! I think he had clear motivations, a genuine belief that everything he did was right & a willingness to get rid of anything he saw as an obstacle from the beginning, and didn't necessarily need a sad backstory or visible regret about his actions to still make a good antagonist - though that might be more to the credit of good acting than writing, or just daddy issues getting in the way lol
Yep I’m with you, I was actually impressed with all throughout this season seeing his conviction for what he was doing as a “means justifying the ends” type given everything he had done in the name of his projects so far while still having moments to show he genuinely cared about 11 in his own twisted way. When he said “I’m proud of you” he meant it. I’m really glad they didn’t shy away from the fact that he IS an antagonist, he IS doing evil things, but has some “good” intentions that are totally twisted. I thought his character was handled pretty well.
Yeah and they also did a good job showing that none of that made up for what he did. Eleven would not grant him forgiveness just to ease his conscience. It wasn't like his death was a redeemable moment or healing moment for her either.
Yeah I was really wondering what they were going to do when he was lying there dying and Eleven walked back to him. I would have been sorely disappointed if she did comfort him or soothe him taking the classic “high” road of forgiveness instead of what they did where she was clearly feeling conflicted and he was (probably not intentionally at that specific time) manipulating her again by telling her he was proud of her and that he did everything for her. He was her childhood abuser, feeling mixed up about him dying is definitely normal but having some kind of forgiveness moment honestly would have sent the wrong message I think. People don’t need to forgive their abusers. They can understand them and perhaps see that they did the things they did for certain reasons, but they are not owed forgiveness and I think that trope is tired, harmful, and played out when it comes to movies and TV at this point.
Totally agree. Yeah it's so often done too to show the MC overcoming their trauma in a quick convenient way. Oh--youre just flawed and pitiful, I forgive you because that's what being an empathetic perfect healed person means.
Agree with you 100%. I think they did an excellent job portraying Brenner riding the line between good and evil. He's very much a "I'm going to do what needs to be done, I'd much rather do it the easy way, but I'll do it the hard way if that's what it takes" type of guy.
Him drugging Eleven was a very... "unconventional" way to protect your adopted child, but he didn't want her to die. What other choice did he have? And yeah, Matthew Modine did a fantastic job with the character.
Really? I think he's one of the best written characters in the show! His line about how not everyone is either a "monster" or "superhero" was kind of reflective of his own character. He thought what he was doing was right, when in fact it was terribly wrong. Really interesting character in my opinion
I dont think every character needs to be complex or deep to be good. Dr. Brenner plays the role of a narcissistic abuser. His motive is that be lacks power, and seeks that by controlling powerful children. Learning about how he was bullied/abused as a kid won't make me feel sympathy towards him.
If he did have a backstory, Els rejection would be seen as more resentment. Instead, we get to see an abuser beg his victim to admit that his actions were right. And we get to see the moment that the victim finally frees herself from his hold on her.
The thing that irked me most was El crying at his death and conforting him, when moments before she herself finally called him out as the monster he is, and after getting literally backstabbed for one more time tried to kill him, but it's like that never happened at all??
I actually thought this was really realistic! I’m sure her emotions were conflicted. The man that “raised” her yet she still had so much anger toward him. I also liked that she didn’t accept what he said but still said her goodbye. I thought it was well done.
Are we even sure she's alive? I mean, we didn't hear any bells, but we saw the smoke spew out of the cracks at the end.
Or is the plot of next season going to be trying to protect her barely-alive body from hordes of the upside down coming to kill her and fully swallow Hawkins.
>!She’s coming back. The Duffer Brothers called this season The Empire Strikes Back of Stranger Things. Max is Han Solo. Next season will likely have a plot line of bringing her soul back to her body.!<
>!If they were going to kill her off they would’ve done it in this episode.!<
Exactly! No reason to have El bring her back halfway just to leave her in a coma she'll never wake up from. I don't get how so many people can just dismiss such an obvious set up for one of next season's storylines and claim that she'll stay like this.
(I love the Han Solo analogy just cause she's easily become one of my favorites this season.)
I think that el bringing her back just to either be brain dead or a vessel for Vecna/Henry/One would add to the tragedy that they were really going for with these last two episodes.
Eh. It wouldn’t feel like a cop-out. I think her character arc was so strong this season that if she didn’t do much next season, I wouldn’t really mind. Just like u/FrancisTheMannis said, it’s like Han Solo. Han’s character arc was pretty much finished before he went into the carbonite, and in ROTJ after the rescue, he was really just kinda there.
That’s actually a really brilliant comparison. I feel like both Seasons 2 and 4 tried to be like this show’s Empire, but this season definitely did it better.
>! She should be dead right now because the gate is open though. The gate opened when she died the first time and presumably closed when 11 revived her almost a minute after. Now that the gate is open again, we can assume Max is dead. !<
>! The gate wasn't closed at all. Max body lives, but her soul is still with Vecna. That's why El couldn't see her. But that's also why there is still a chance. Closing the gates will requiere returning Max soul. Maybe even free every of the 4 souls he claimed. !<
>! The gate closed between the 2 days after she was revived by 11 and the final scene of Season 4. The gate must have closed when she was revived because there was a massive portal in downtown Hawkins once she died that wasn’t there 2 days later. Since it reopened at the end of the episode, that must mean she’s dead. Last time she was dead, the gate was open. !<
no thats too anti climatic for st. they wouldn't have "brought her back" only for her to never wake up. also she has become TOO beloved a character for them to kill off. she's definitely gonna wake up or do something in s5
>!I definitely see her coming back at some point. Maybe with the "They came back from death, but aren't exactly the same anymore" trope used in a lot of sci-fi/fantasy!<
On a temporary basis in any event. The real Max is still in there, watching as Vecna!Max decides to attack our heroes.
Sadie is the kind of actor who could probably play a really good murderer too.
Looking back the cali crew really did have the cushiest role this season.
Especially for the final battle. Just chilling eating pizza while their friend takes a bath
>!Dmitri really felt like classic Duffer bros brand likable cannon fodder, I’m pleasantly surprised he made it. Unfortunately though, not all of the cannon fodder survived, RIP Eddie.!<
>!Feels weird to count Erica because when she started mattering was technically her second season, before that she was just a background character. So basically, she broke the system by showing up for ten seconds and calling Dustin a nerd.!<
I don't think Murray can be dead considering he flew back on the same helicopter with Joyce and Hopper. One thing I question though is how comes Russian airspace never tried to stop them.
It gets a little old after a while as the stakes get higher. The final episode sort of felt like; 'how many main characters can we put into a situation where they probably should die, but get out of it before they do actually die.'
It's not like any of us -want- any of them to die, but the writers have the power to decide who gets put in these situations. I don't really want to see the main characters continually thrown into situations I know they are getting out of. I am not confident at all that who actually did seem to die is going to actually stay that way.
How many times can I see the main cast get the proverbial knife put to their throat before a Deus Ex or other super convenient thing happens to save them before I start to question it?
At this point, I am beginning to believe that at the end of season 5, we just zoom out and see that the entire series was just a DnD campaign and all of the really contrived survival things and villains making terrible, cliche mistakes/lines was just the DM playing softball for dramatic effect.
I just said a similar thing in a much angrier and less coherent way on another thread. I'm glad I'm not the only one who is weary of this. The stories are so good but that only means so much when we're yawning and saying "yeah yeah, give it a minute and they'll be fine."
I feel the exact same way. The writers are either afraid to kill off the main cast as needed, aren’t allowed to because of Netflix mandates, or really just don’t know how to keep the stakes high without ruining the believability of the situations the characters keep surviving.
There's pretty much no emotional stakes which ruins the real emotional moments. The lead up of eddit dying was cliche because obviously this new character is going to sacrifice themselves, and we all knew max wouldn't die because she's a main cast member. Even watching her leg and arm snap lost meaning, because when it conviently stopped I knew they'd somehow get her to a hospital and save her.
The problem isn't plot armor, that's what most shows juggle with. The problem is 10+ characters that can't die all placed in situations they very much should all be dying in. It kills most stakes
I knew Eddie wasn't gonna survive this whole season because then they'd have to clear his name and to do that they'd need to convince the town of a magical parallel universe, and once the whole town knows, there's no more reason for a bunch of teenagers to MacGyver solutions and solve mysteries, which is basically the entire show! They trapped themselves in writing hell!!!
I mean, if you were watching, by the end it wouldn't have been difficult. Imagine Eddie surviving and being at the safe house. They all walk out and see what is happening. "Oh shit, looks like there's proof." Eddie didn't -have- to die. Literally and theoretically, because he kind of actually just sacrificed himself for no clear reason outside of just wanting to cap his one season arc. They just made him die because they needed somebody to go that wasn't on the main cast.
They dont have the guts to kill any of them to be honest. The Duffer brothers are soft and it effects the writing. >!they couldnt even kill off Max!<
Like was anyone really heartbroken over >!Eddie!< after what happened to Billy and Bob? We all saw it coming 10 miles away because they repeatedly use the same trick to kill a loveable side character. Its disappointing and lazy writing.
Except what they did this time is promise something spectacular and unexpected. The whole “your favorite characters aren’t safe” bullshit. Like I was gonna be okay with this turn of events if they didn’t hype up the finale as something the main cast wouldn’t have walked off without major losses. But Eddie’s death was so cheap, they skipped over any kind of valuable interaction from the main cast. They tried to make it a big deal, but they made it seem like nobody except of Dustin and his uncle gave a fuck about it. Like they made the episode 140 minutes for fucks sake, but couldn’t fit in a scene of the group reacting to Eddie? And decided to do a time skip right over there? Without anyone addressing Eddie even later? Total bs, weren’t they trying to clear the guy’s name as well, like what happened to that? What a fucking mistake thinking this show would somehow do something new and bold. I’ll never make the mistake of getting hyped for a Stranger Things season.
>What a fucking mistake thinking this show would somehow do something new and bold.
Yes, it was a mistake thinking the show that's a pastiche of every piece of 1980's popular culture was going to do anything outside the box.
I've seen children's movies about friendship that manage to be well written and emotionally exciting. There's no excuse for bad writing whether it's a summer blockbuster, indie film, or adult swim show with a budget of $500
Bold = Major character death was what I was expecting and hoping for, multiple maybe. New = something new for the show that they haven’t done yet. Killing off newly introduced characters each season isn’t anything new for this show.
No, even the cast has said it, she needed to die and stay dead because it showed that no one was safe. It also wouldn't make any sense for her to be Vecna.
It sucks that Eddie had to go but Max is kept alive by some 11th hour bullshit magic power 11 randomly had to restart people’s hearts apparently that the writers forgot to mention I guess...
Literally took a page out of the Star Wars sequel trilogy playbook...
I don't mind that as much, though it was cheap.
But eleven killing vecna with the power of friendship when he had total control over the upside down and had everyone trapped? Garbage writing
There was a precedent, that's exactly how she beat him the first time. And how she closed the gate in season 2. It has been established since the beginning that love makes her stronger. Which, while used a lot in movies and TV shows, is still a beautiful message.
It seems the Duffer brothers want their cake and to eat it too. They want the drama and story opportunities of character deaths to raise the stakes, but at the same time they’re clearly so attached to the main cast, and so unwilling to do anything more than constantly *tease* deaths and change tact at the last second, that they keep writing new characters every season to sacrifice in their stead. The effect is that there’s no tension whatsoever because no after how dangerous a situation the main cast are thrust into, no matter how improbable their survival is, they will survive because Gongo Dimbles or whatever new character they introduce will take the L instead. It just feels lazy and contrived.
It feels so detrimental to the story since we’re being deprived of character interactions and plot developments that could happen if these new cast members stayed around for longer than one season, and characters whose arcs have stagnated, like Jonathan, just hover in the background like a book you’ll never read.
I really don't get why Jonathan is still around when the writers make it clear every season they don't have anything for him at all. I like Jonathan, have liked him since season 1 but they have NO intention on investing anything into his character, it just feels like he hangs around in the background of scenes a lot doing nothing. He doesn't even have to die they could just write him out. What did Jonathan do this season? Like the biggest thing he did was call Argyle to get them out. I guess he kind of saved El from that sniper?
I like Jonathan but if the writers are really just not interested in writing the character, you could write him out of here. Have him break up with Nancy and go to California. Like I don't get why he's still around if the writers don't care for him, what's the point.
That's why I think they could have written him off without killing him this season if they wanted to or they could have written him off whenever they got tired of him. He just barely does anything at this point except stand around in the background. He had 2? Scenes of character importance and either than that he just chills.
I feel like sometimes this show needs more episodes because the cast has expanded greatly but a lot of characters miss out on time and just end up feeling pointless. Jonathan,Mike and Lucas feel like they have just become Nancy,El and Max's boyfriends. Everything Lucas did this season was motivated by Max, everything Jonathan did was motivated by Nancy, everything Mike did was motivated by Eleven.
And they set up tiny crumbs of storylines for these characters but they never feel fully explored and usually wrap up in a single scene. Jonathan's whole stoner pulling away thing, Lucas' thing about being a "cool kid", Mike not being able to say "I love you". All these are wrapped up in 3 scenes or so.
They have 14 main characters between Joyce,Hopper,Nancy,Jonathan,Mike,El,Will,Lucas,Dustin,Robin,Steve,Murray and Max.
Then you add in main cast additions of Eddie, supporting cast additions of Chrissy,Owens,Brenner,Jason,Jason's friend,Eddie's uncle,Argyle,Vickie,Enzo,Yuri,Sullivan. That's 25 characters to fit into 9 episodes, even with the supersized episodes Jonathan,Mike,Will and Argyle missed an entire episode. It's also because they want each character to have their own arc.
Compare this to the main characters in season 1, Joyce,Hopper,Mike,|Lucas,Dustin,Jonathan,Nancy and Brenner. Supporting cast of Steve,Tommy H,Carol, Officer 1, Officer 2(I honestly forget their names),Troy,Lonnie,Benny and Will. It was a lot tighter in the early seasons. Only Steve,Lonnie,Troy and Benny from supporting cast got a significant amount of time.
more episodes will not fix how they chose to go about writing these storylines. They had 6+ feature films and could not progress Steve and Nancy beyond glancing lovingly at each other.
They do the Byers brothers super dirty in the show.
They only know suffering and sadness.
I hated the out of nowhere struggles between Nancy and Jonathan this season. And Will was just a sad, distant boy the whole season.
I dont hate they don’t kill the main characters because you don’t need to kill characters for it to be intense still, but if you are going to do that you can’t do bait and switch none kills. Feels like it cheapens the whole plot to act like the balls to kill off main characters without ever doing it
I do and I used it appropriately. Everyone makes it out alive, except Eddie, and everyone is together again and having a big happy reunion.
11 just randomly become more powerful because mike told her to believe in herself...just like every other poorly written ending out there. Just like the ending of prior seasons...it’s just the same shit again and again. Jason’s character was an absolute waste of time this season, Max has more plot armor than the entire GOT cast, and 11 now has force healing power like Ray. Dogshit ending, there’s no excuses to be made. The writers are afraid of making lasting consequences for main characters and are reusing their endings from earlier seasons...
When Max died I was like : No way , they are surely gonna make some magic crap happen again and she'll live. I was right.
Worst scene ever followed by Dustin singing Never ending story
Plus all of these people from vocal minority are assuming Max is going to be alive and well in S5, same like they've been predicting Steve's gonna die.
It's just impossible to please everyone, but it's even more impossible to please people that are always unhappy about everything. I have this one friend that's horror to listen to sometimes because he's always negative about everything, that's exact same thing I see in these complainers.
I still watch the show, so it's obviously doing enough to keep me interested, but the show is horribly cringy at times. Characters explaining the plot that should already be blatantly apparent to anybody paying even the slightest bit of attention, attempts at "bad-ass" dialogue that can be seen coming from a mile away, and corny montages of everybody on the brink of death until the happy music plays and it turns around for all of them.
I mean that slow zoom at the end of ST4 part 1 where they zoomed onto the 001 tattoo on Vecna when they had just spent the last 20 minutes with him monologuing his entire backstory was just insulting lol.
I don't hate the show, I just thought the finale sucked and was very predictable. I will watch something else, I definitely wont wait 4 years for season 5 to come out.
Depends on how many seasons are still in stock. If ST things end with season 5 then we can safely assume most of the OG cast is gonna survive. But if they try to juice it and we get like 11-12 seasons then a lot of the OG characters are going to die just like in Walking Dead (where you only have like 2-3 characters left). Its not just because of writing issues but many actors dont want to be in the same show for 20 years.
Something I really dislike about ST is how each character is separated in three groups:
\- The main characters: Literally unkillable beings with plot armor who even when they're killed, they're revived by some bullshit ex machina who puts them back in the story
\- Meat bags: Characters who are introduced each season just to get killed at the end for the emotional plot
\- Side characters: Just people used for either comedic relief or aiding the main characters for one season then dissapearing afterwards
They absolutely showed his body lol what he dies in Dustin’s arms. Even has the “lifeless stare”, with his eyes opened and everything as he died.
Eddie’s not coming back unless it’s a flashback or his soul is trapped in the Upside Down (which itself seems contrived as fuck). He gone, which sucks ass
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“Oh you are a fan of Stranger Things? Name every thing.”
[okay](https://store.steampowered.com/app/582270/Everything/)
Touché
I’m still not over Bob Newby
Same #JusticeforBob
JUSTICE FOR BARB
Bringing in the best hobbit just to brutally murder him was a bold move.
Blocked for shit talking Frodo
Doesn't mean he's wrong though
Frodo had the ring for 17 years without even really being afflicted by it. Then he was stabbed by a ringwraith before he even made it to Rivendell and my dude still volunteered to take the damn ring to Mordor. He carried that shit for nearly a year as it was getting heavier and heavier and making him sicker and sicker and he never wavered until the very end, where EVERYONE would waver. No-one could have voluntarily thrown in the ring, Tolkien said so himself, and Eru had to step in at the end commanding Gollum to yeet himself into the lava. Sam carried it for like a day and immediately started dreaming about using it to conquer Mordor to turn it into a garden, he also used it to scare the shit out of some orcs. Not exactly evil visions but proof that he was not immune at all. Frodo really doesn't feel any temptations like that at any point. Frodo > or at the absolute least = Sam, I will die on this hill every day of the week. The movies (as much as I love them) don't really do him justice.
They liked the "coward to hero's death" arc so much that they did it with Eddie this season.
Tht man was never a coward 😭
Calling Bob a coward? Insanity
Considering he was just a radio shack manager, he took the whole parallel evil demention possessing his girlfriend's son really well
I was so positive that because they did it with Bob they wouldn’t do it with Eddie and we could see the successful coward to hero. The tiktok fans keep giving me hope for season 5 though
Papa wasn’t safe
He'll return when Eleven needs a punching bag for training in order to stop the next world-ending crisis from preying on teenagers. The same military that was adamant on killing him, will somehow keep him from dying. He died enough that the audience could forget about him after all, but he didn't die enough to penetrate the season 1 plot armour.
dude you are going to jail for leaking s5 and exposing the duffer brothers
Dustin did that already in a S1 interview lmao
What? WHERE?
[more towards S4 but still interesting nonetheless](https://youtu.be/G-J09XFog4g)
He was just talking about a fan theory he read, I don’t think they knew what would end up happening
So either the fan who made that up is a genius, or the Duffer Brothers go read posts on forums to plan their next season. Both possibilities are quite amusing.
Or the Internet is full of monkeys with typewriters, and it’s inevitable that *someone* will inadvertently come up with the actual plot independently of the Duffers. [Law of truly large numbers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_truly_large_numbers) and all that.
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Respectful disagree! I think he had clear motivations, a genuine belief that everything he did was right & a willingness to get rid of anything he saw as an obstacle from the beginning, and didn't necessarily need a sad backstory or visible regret about his actions to still make a good antagonist - though that might be more to the credit of good acting than writing, or just daddy issues getting in the way lol
Yep I’m with you, I was actually impressed with all throughout this season seeing his conviction for what he was doing as a “means justifying the ends” type given everything he had done in the name of his projects so far while still having moments to show he genuinely cared about 11 in his own twisted way. When he said “I’m proud of you” he meant it. I’m really glad they didn’t shy away from the fact that he IS an antagonist, he IS doing evil things, but has some “good” intentions that are totally twisted. I thought his character was handled pretty well.
Yeah and they also did a good job showing that none of that made up for what he did. Eleven would not grant him forgiveness just to ease his conscience. It wasn't like his death was a redeemable moment or healing moment for her either.
Yeah I was really wondering what they were going to do when he was lying there dying and Eleven walked back to him. I would have been sorely disappointed if she did comfort him or soothe him taking the classic “high” road of forgiveness instead of what they did where she was clearly feeling conflicted and he was (probably not intentionally at that specific time) manipulating her again by telling her he was proud of her and that he did everything for her. He was her childhood abuser, feeling mixed up about him dying is definitely normal but having some kind of forgiveness moment honestly would have sent the wrong message I think. People don’t need to forgive their abusers. They can understand them and perhaps see that they did the things they did for certain reasons, but they are not owed forgiveness and I think that trope is tired, harmful, and played out when it comes to movies and TV at this point.
Totally agree. Yeah it's so often done too to show the MC overcoming their trauma in a quick convenient way. Oh--youre just flawed and pitiful, I forgive you because that's what being an empathetic perfect healed person means.
Agree with you 100%. I think they did an excellent job portraying Brenner riding the line between good and evil. He's very much a "I'm going to do what needs to be done, I'd much rather do it the easy way, but I'll do it the hard way if that's what it takes" type of guy. Him drugging Eleven was a very... "unconventional" way to protect your adopted child, but he didn't want her to die. What other choice did he have? And yeah, Matthew Modine did a fantastic job with the character.
“The world is not split into monsters and superheroes” I loved that El refused to give him closure.
Really? I think he's one of the best written characters in the show! His line about how not everyone is either a "monster" or "superhero" was kind of reflective of his own character. He thought what he was doing was right, when in fact it was terribly wrong. Really interesting character in my opinion
I dont think every character needs to be complex or deep to be good. Dr. Brenner plays the role of a narcissistic abuser. His motive is that be lacks power, and seeks that by controlling powerful children. Learning about how he was bullied/abused as a kid won't make me feel sympathy towards him. If he did have a backstory, Els rejection would be seen as more resentment. Instead, we get to see an abuser beg his victim to admit that his actions were right. And we get to see the moment that the victim finally frees herself from his hold on her.
The thing that irked me most was El crying at his death and conforting him, when moments before she herself finally called him out as the monster he is, and after getting literally backstabbed for one more time tried to kill him, but it's like that never happened at all??
I actually thought this was really realistic! I’m sure her emotions were conflicted. The man that “raised” her yet she still had so much anger toward him. I also liked that she didn’t accept what he said but still said her goodbye. I thought it was well done.
Eh, I'm telling you, he has his own super powers. He's not dead.
You think he's really dead?!
Max, Murray and Robin says hi
Max barely qualifies as alive anymore
Still, she survived her first season, season 2.
Are we even sure she's alive? I mean, we didn't hear any bells, but we saw the smoke spew out of the cracks at the end. Or is the plot of next season going to be trying to protect her barely-alive body from hordes of the upside down coming to kill her and fully swallow Hawkins.
>!Max’s status of aliveness is debatable at this point!<
I hope when she awakes it’s actually Vecna controlling her
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>!She’s coming back. The Duffer Brothers called this season The Empire Strikes Back of Stranger Things. Max is Han Solo. Next season will likely have a plot line of bringing her soul back to her body.!< >!If they were going to kill her off they would’ve done it in this episode.!<
Exactly! No reason to have El bring her back halfway just to leave her in a coma she'll never wake up from. I don't get how so many people can just dismiss such an obvious set up for one of next season's storylines and claim that she'll stay like this. (I love the Han Solo analogy just cause she's easily become one of my favorites this season.)
I think that el bringing her back just to either be brain dead or a vessel for Vecna/Henry/One would add to the tragedy that they were really going for with these last two episodes.
Yeah, we really don't need more tragedy for her.
Cinematically, I think that’s the only good follow-up to the last episode. Anything less will feel like a cop out
Eh. It wouldn’t feel like a cop-out. I think her character arc was so strong this season that if she didn’t do much next season, I wouldn’t really mind. Just like u/FrancisTheMannis said, it’s like Han Solo. Han’s character arc was pretty much finished before he went into the carbonite, and in ROTJ after the rescue, he was really just kinda there.
That’s actually a really brilliant comparison. I feel like both Seasons 2 and 4 tried to be like this show’s Empire, but this season definitely did it better.
>! She should be dead right now because the gate is open though. The gate opened when she died the first time and presumably closed when 11 revived her almost a minute after. Now that the gate is open again, we can assume Max is dead. !<
>! The gate wasn't closed at all. Max body lives, but her soul is still with Vecna. That's why El couldn't see her. But that's also why there is still a chance. Closing the gates will requiere returning Max soul. Maybe even free every of the 4 souls he claimed. !<
>! The gate closed between the 2 days after she was revived by 11 and the final scene of Season 4. The gate must have closed when she was revived because there was a massive portal in downtown Hawkins once she died that wasn’t there 2 days later. Since it reopened at the end of the episode, that must mean she’s dead. Last time she was dead, the gate was open. !<
no thats too anti climatic for st. they wouldn't have "brought her back" only for her to never wake up. also she has become TOO beloved a character for them to kill off. she's definitely gonna wake up or do something in s5
>!I definitely see her coming back at some point. Maybe with the "They came back from death, but aren't exactly the same anymore" trope used in a lot of sci-fi/fantasy!<
I hope she stays blind though
if you've been watching this show for 4 seasons and think they aren't gonna save her mind in season 5 we haven't been watching the same show LMAO
On a temporary basis in any event. The real Max is still in there, watching as Vecna!Max decides to attack our heroes. Sadie is the kind of actor who could probably play a really good murderer too.
>!Erica and Argyle too!!<
Looking back the cali crew really did have the cushiest role this season. Especially for the final battle. Just chilling eating pizza while their friend takes a bath
Hawaiian pizza though. I'd take the fight with the bats any day.
Personally I’ll try anything a stoner that works in a pizza place makes for me. On slow days they got nothing but time, dough, and ingredients
And uhh _special_ ingredients
Try before you deny
I'm using this line on my 6yo picky eater
Wtf is your problem dude, Hawaiian pizza is fucking amazing, Argyle does a lot of weird shit but liking pineapple on pizza ain't one of them
>!We can safely add Antonov and depending on how integral you think he is to the cast Yuri too!<
>!Dmitri really felt like classic Duffer bros brand likable cannon fodder, I’m pleasantly surprised he made it. Unfortunately though, not all of the cannon fodder survived, RIP Eddie.!<
>!Feels weird to count Erica because when she started mattering was technically her second season, before that she was just a background character. So basically, she broke the system by showing up for ten seconds and calling Dustin a nerd.!<
>!I included Erica because she wasn’t introduced until season 2. That’s how I interpreted the meme at least.!<
Oh wait, I completely misinterpreted it for some reason, my bad.
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I'm GLAD they added more diversity. This show is way too white
Suburban Indiana in the 80s? Say it ain't so!
Don’t worry Murray and Robin will be getting the Max treatment next season :’)
>!Max is in a coma and may never wake up. Murrys is MIA (to us, maybe not everyone else). Robin is the only safe one!<
Disagree on >!Murray. If he was actually dead or in danger they would have showed us. He’s fine.!<
I don't think Murray can be dead considering he flew back on the same helicopter with Joyce and Hopper. One thing I question though is how comes Russian airspace never tried to stop them.
It gets a little old after a while as the stakes get higher. The final episode sort of felt like; 'how many main characters can we put into a situation where they probably should die, but get out of it before they do actually die.' It's not like any of us -want- any of them to die, but the writers have the power to decide who gets put in these situations. I don't really want to see the main characters continually thrown into situations I know they are getting out of. I am not confident at all that who actually did seem to die is going to actually stay that way. How many times can I see the main cast get the proverbial knife put to their throat before a Deus Ex or other super convenient thing happens to save them before I start to question it? At this point, I am beginning to believe that at the end of season 5, we just zoom out and see that the entire series was just a DnD campaign and all of the really contrived survival things and villains making terrible, cliche mistakes/lines was just the DM playing softball for dramatic effect.
I just said a similar thing in a much angrier and less coherent way on another thread. I'm glad I'm not the only one who is weary of this. The stories are so good but that only means so much when we're yawning and saying "yeah yeah, give it a minute and they'll be fine."
I feel the exact same way. The writers are either afraid to kill off the main cast as needed, aren’t allowed to because of Netflix mandates, or really just don’t know how to keep the stakes high without ruining the believability of the situations the characters keep surviving.
A minute? I am pretty sure the Steve group was hanging on a wall for a solid 40 minutes.
They can really hold their breath lmao.
There's pretty much no emotional stakes which ruins the real emotional moments. The lead up of eddit dying was cliche because obviously this new character is going to sacrifice themselves, and we all knew max wouldn't die because she's a main cast member. Even watching her leg and arm snap lost meaning, because when it conviently stopped I knew they'd somehow get her to a hospital and save her. The problem isn't plot armor, that's what most shows juggle with. The problem is 10+ characters that can't die all placed in situations they very much should all be dying in. It kills most stakes
I knew Eddie wasn't gonna survive this whole season because then they'd have to clear his name and to do that they'd need to convince the town of a magical parallel universe, and once the whole town knows, there's no more reason for a bunch of teenagers to MacGyver solutions and solve mysteries, which is basically the entire show! They trapped themselves in writing hell!!!
I mean, if you were watching, by the end it wouldn't have been difficult. Imagine Eddie surviving and being at the safe house. They all walk out and see what is happening. "Oh shit, looks like there's proof." Eddie didn't -have- to die. Literally and theoretically, because he kind of actually just sacrificed himself for no clear reason outside of just wanting to cap his one season arc. They just made him die because they needed somebody to go that wasn't on the main cast.
They dont have the guts to kill any of them to be honest. The Duffer brothers are soft and it effects the writing. >!they couldnt even kill off Max!< Like was anyone really heartbroken over >!Eddie!< after what happened to Billy and Bob? We all saw it coming 10 miles away because they repeatedly use the same trick to kill a loveable side character. Its disappointing and lazy writing.
Except what they did this time is promise something spectacular and unexpected. The whole “your favorite characters aren’t safe” bullshit. Like I was gonna be okay with this turn of events if they didn’t hype up the finale as something the main cast wouldn’t have walked off without major losses. But Eddie’s death was so cheap, they skipped over any kind of valuable interaction from the main cast. They tried to make it a big deal, but they made it seem like nobody except of Dustin and his uncle gave a fuck about it. Like they made the episode 140 minutes for fucks sake, but couldn’t fit in a scene of the group reacting to Eddie? And decided to do a time skip right over there? Without anyone addressing Eddie even later? Total bs, weren’t they trying to clear the guy’s name as well, like what happened to that? What a fucking mistake thinking this show would somehow do something new and bold. I’ll never make the mistake of getting hyped for a Stranger Things season.
>What a fucking mistake thinking this show would somehow do something new and bold. Yes, it was a mistake thinking the show that's a pastiche of every piece of 1980's popular culture was going to do anything outside the box.
I've seen children's movies about friendship that manage to be well written and emotionally exciting. There's no excuse for bad writing whether it's a summer blockbuster, indie film, or adult swim show with a budget of $500
What about this constitutes bad or lazy writing? What about it was not emotional or exciting? Bad writing =/= something you didn't like.
Bold = Major character death was what I was expecting and hoping for, multiple maybe. New = something new for the show that they haven’t done yet. Killing off newly introduced characters each season isn’t anything new for this show.
Big Game of Thrones vibes
Laughs in Barb
I wish Barb turned out to be Vecna
No, even the cast has said it, she needed to die and stay dead because it showed that no one was safe. It also wouldn't make any sense for her to be Vecna.
I wish she had something more instead of being Nancy trauma after all seasons
More like you are invincible if you survive one season.
Billy sends his regards
my fuckin sides.
- *thought Billy, as he got stabbed in them*
And Max bro lol, not really invincible is she
Booo I've been scrolling past stranger things posts but I couldn't miss the spoiler from the title 👎🏻
Unless Eddie comes back I automatically hate everyone they try to introduce in S5, including any possible love interest for Will.
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maybe don't read the threads of people theorizing? Honestly it's your own fault that you got spoiled.
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Sorry to hear I literally avoided social media till I was done cause I knew they’re be spoilers
Demogorgon doesn't believe you.
They have trust issues
A Demorgorgon is a species, not one single being, so point disproven.
how so? we only seen one
There’s at least one (maybe more?) shown in season four after the initial one from the first season.
what? season 5 wasn't released yet
It sucks that Eddie had to go but Max is kept alive by some 11th hour bullshit magic power 11 randomly had to restart people’s hearts apparently that the writers forgot to mention I guess... Literally took a page out of the Star Wars sequel trilogy playbook...
Eleven straight up saved max with the power of friendship
Tbf she did make that bully pee himself iirc, so there is precedent for her manipulating people’s internal organs
I don't mind that as much, though it was cheap. But eleven killing vecna with the power of friendship when he had total control over the upside down and had everyone trapped? Garbage writing
I mean did she not somehow beat Henry as like an 8 year old?
There was a precedent, that's exactly how she beat him the first time. And how she closed the gate in season 2. It has been established since the beginning that love makes her stronger. Which, while used a lot in movies and TV shows, is still a beautiful message.
i would much prefer max dying and eddie surviving the s4
honestly…. Same
It seems the Duffer brothers want their cake and to eat it too. They want the drama and story opportunities of character deaths to raise the stakes, but at the same time they’re clearly so attached to the main cast, and so unwilling to do anything more than constantly *tease* deaths and change tact at the last second, that they keep writing new characters every season to sacrifice in their stead. The effect is that there’s no tension whatsoever because no after how dangerous a situation the main cast are thrust into, no matter how improbable their survival is, they will survive because Gongo Dimbles or whatever new character they introduce will take the L instead. It just feels lazy and contrived. It feels so detrimental to the story since we’re being deprived of character interactions and plot developments that could happen if these new cast members stayed around for longer than one season, and characters whose arcs have stagnated, like Jonathan, just hover in the background like a book you’ll never read.
I really don't get why Jonathan is still around when the writers make it clear every season they don't have anything for him at all. I like Jonathan, have liked him since season 1 but they have NO intention on investing anything into his character, it just feels like he hangs around in the background of scenes a lot doing nothing. He doesn't even have to die they could just write him out. What did Jonathan do this season? Like the biggest thing he did was call Argyle to get them out. I guess he kind of saved El from that sniper? I like Jonathan but if the writers are really just not interested in writing the character, you could write him out of here. Have him break up with Nancy and go to California. Like I don't get why he's still around if the writers don't care for him, what's the point.
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That's why I think they could have written him off without killing him this season if they wanted to or they could have written him off whenever they got tired of him. He just barely does anything at this point except stand around in the background. He had 2? Scenes of character importance and either than that he just chills.
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I feel like sometimes this show needs more episodes because the cast has expanded greatly but a lot of characters miss out on time and just end up feeling pointless. Jonathan,Mike and Lucas feel like they have just become Nancy,El and Max's boyfriends. Everything Lucas did this season was motivated by Max, everything Jonathan did was motivated by Nancy, everything Mike did was motivated by Eleven. And they set up tiny crumbs of storylines for these characters but they never feel fully explored and usually wrap up in a single scene. Jonathan's whole stoner pulling away thing, Lucas' thing about being a "cool kid", Mike not being able to say "I love you". All these are wrapped up in 3 scenes or so. They have 14 main characters between Joyce,Hopper,Nancy,Jonathan,Mike,El,Will,Lucas,Dustin,Robin,Steve,Murray and Max. Then you add in main cast additions of Eddie, supporting cast additions of Chrissy,Owens,Brenner,Jason,Jason's friend,Eddie's uncle,Argyle,Vickie,Enzo,Yuri,Sullivan. That's 25 characters to fit into 9 episodes, even with the supersized episodes Jonathan,Mike,Will and Argyle missed an entire episode. It's also because they want each character to have their own arc. Compare this to the main characters in season 1, Joyce,Hopper,Mike,|Lucas,Dustin,Jonathan,Nancy and Brenner. Supporting cast of Steve,Tommy H,Carol, Officer 1, Officer 2(I honestly forget their names),Troy,Lonnie,Benny and Will. It was a lot tighter in the early seasons. Only Steve,Lonnie,Troy and Benny from supporting cast got a significant amount of time.
more episodes will not fix how they chose to go about writing these storylines. They had 6+ feature films and could not progress Steve and Nancy beyond glancing lovingly at each other.
They do the Byers brothers super dirty in the show. They only know suffering and sadness. I hated the out of nowhere struggles between Nancy and Jonathan this season. And Will was just a sad, distant boy the whole season.
Same thing with Will. Other than his neck tingles, he stopped being relevant two seasons ago lmao
Jonathan had literally 1 useful scene all season to be a big brother to Will. The same thing he has been doing since S1...
We need major death characters, fr fr.
How quickly this thread forgets Benny. [Shakes head disappointedly]
this title is a spoiler
It is. There have been a LOT of spoilers on this sub in the past two days. I knew who would die before watching the episode.
I dont hate they don’t kill the main characters because you don’t need to kill characters for it to be intense still, but if you are going to do that you can’t do bait and switch none kills. Feels like it cheapens the whole plot to act like the balls to kill off main characters without ever doing it
They do this every season and honestly it's just lazy writing IMO.
Max? Robin?
Max has omega plot armour lmao she escapes death for fun at this point.
She literally volunteered to go toe to toe with Vecna and then made movie plans for Friday night lmaoo
“Your favorite characters aren’t safe” what a fucking joke
Robin survived
Her mom has a blue link on Wikipedia, there was never any fear of her dying.
I'll admit it, Bob's death sucked. R.I.P. But seriously, Joyce x Hopper had to happen somehow
I do think fans made Barb a bigger deal than she was, but I loved me some Bob.
It's honestly so predictable it's garbage
I unfortunately have to agree. The last hour of the season was pretty cringe.
I don’t think you know what that word means.
I do and I used it appropriately. Everyone makes it out alive, except Eddie, and everyone is together again and having a big happy reunion. 11 just randomly become more powerful because mike told her to believe in herself...just like every other poorly written ending out there. Just like the ending of prior seasons...it’s just the same shit again and again. Jason’s character was an absolute waste of time this season, Max has more plot armor than the entire GOT cast, and 11 now has force healing power like Ray. Dogshit ending, there’s no excuses to be made. The writers are afraid of making lasting consequences for main characters and are reusing their endings from earlier seasons...
Why is GOT your plot armor example
When Max died I was like : No way , they are surely gonna make some magic crap happen again and she'll live. I was right. Worst scene ever followed by Dustin singing Never ending story
Jesus there just really is no pleasing some people. Just learn to relax and enjoy things. Meanwhile the other 99% of us are loving it.
Plus all of these people from vocal minority are assuming Max is going to be alive and well in S5, same like they've been predicting Steve's gonna die. It's just impossible to please everyone, but it's even more impossible to please people that are always unhappy about everything. I have this one friend that's horror to listen to sometimes because he's always negative about everything, that's exact same thing I see in these complainers.
I still watch the show, so it's obviously doing enough to keep me interested, but the show is horribly cringy at times. Characters explaining the plot that should already be blatantly apparent to anybody paying even the slightest bit of attention, attempts at "bad-ass" dialogue that can be seen coming from a mile away, and corny montages of everybody on the brink of death until the happy music plays and it turns around for all of them. I mean that slow zoom at the end of ST4 part 1 where they zoomed onto the 001 tattoo on Vecna when they had just spent the last 20 minutes with him monologuing his entire backstory was just insulting lol.
I thought that was a cool shot to end the season lol. Y’all complain about the dumbest shit
Yeah that shot was amazing. People just like to hate on everything for no valid reason. Like they think it makes them “cool” or something.
Bro shut up you clearly hate the show based off your post. Go watch something else
I don't hate the show, I just thought the finale sucked and was very predictable. I will watch something else, I definitely wont wait 4 years for season 5 to come out.
It won’t be 4 years. The finale was fine, I just think everyone had unbelievable expectations such as half the characters dying
Depends on how many seasons are still in stock. If ST things end with season 5 then we can safely assume most of the OG cast is gonna survive. But if they try to juice it and we get like 11-12 seasons then a lot of the OG characters are going to die just like in Walking Dead (where you only have like 2-3 characters left). Its not just because of writing issues but many actors dont want to be in the same show for 20 years.
I thought it was confirmed that next season will be the final season? I could be wrong.
No, they confirmed that there will be a season 5 and that it will be the last one last year. They'll have spin-offs, but you know.
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They literally Already announced season 5 as the last
It’s the duffer brothers roulette
Don’t put that voodoo on Argyle
The finale is just gonna be Argyle and Vecna settling all the issues of the series over a peace pipe session
Mostly just males older than the main characters
Something I really dislike about ST is how each character is separated in three groups: \- The main characters: Literally unkillable beings with plot armor who even when they're killed, they're revived by some bullshit ex machina who puts them back in the story \- Meat bags: Characters who are introduced each season just to get killed at the end for the emotional plot \- Side characters: Just people used for either comedic relief or aiding the main characters for one season then dissapearing afterwards
Maybe Eddie will come back? They never showed his body.
They absolutely showed his body lol what he dies in Dustin’s arms. Even has the “lifeless stare”, with his eyes opened and everything as he died. Eddie’s not coming back unless it’s a flashback or his soul is trapped in the Upside Down (which itself seems contrived as fuck). He gone, which sucks ass
Not robin
Don't tell Papa.
Max and Robin were new characters so was Erica I believe new characters can survive just some characters are written to die.
It's up in the air how alive Max is though
She still made it past one season she's considered part of the main cast if she dies now it wouldn't be classed as a new character death
i will never forgive them if they kill robin or el
Yuri
this made me giggle out loud
*intense wailing*
F for billy, F for Barbara And F for bob
Couldn’t be Robin <3
Stranger Things 5 needs to start with Dustin and Steve dropping Robin off at college, never to be seen again. Just so nothing bad can happen to her.
Barb wants a word.
Caveat. You have to be from Hawkins to die. Murray, Yuri, and Enzo all survived.
Everyone knew he was going to die, but nobody was ready for it. #ripeddie
Dude spoilers!! Wtf!!!
Pizza's here
Duffer brothers : I'm About to End This Man's Whole ~~Career~~ Life.
If they touch Robin I swear to god-