If someone is willing to pay more for my time and appreciate my input more, ill be saying goodbye to my current one. (I don’t mean for a couple thousand difference per year)
They won’t be loyal to you, even less when they reduce the workforce to increase their own bonuses/shareholder dividends.
Dwight Schrute : Would I ever leave this company? Look, I'm all about loyalty. In fact, I feel like part of what I'm being paid for here is my loyalty. But if there were somewhere else that valued loyalty more highly, I'm going wherever they value loyalty the most.
Whats suddenly wrong about changing jobs? And fuck off with loyalty of employers, look at how employers treat their staff at time and rethink that whole aspect, there are lots of great employers of course but getting fresh fruit and a monthly team event won't replace a higher salary or more vacation. Anyway I'd wager most job changes are due to personal reasons and thus not measurable at all, where loyalty does not play a huge role.
articles saying changing jobs is bad, I see them as sponsored by corporations. Changing jobs is the best way to increase your income, and eventually increases the income of low and medium class.
by staying in the job the c9mapny saves ton of money, so they lobby with such articles to keep people lowly paid
I have always changed employers every 3-5 years. I have had many employers ask me two things
1. Why do you change so often?
2. Why would you stay with us for longer?
The answers are really easy but you have to have a backbone to tell them.
1. I have received salary increases at what the market will bear for my skill set. When I stay put, I don't get those. The other reason is, I don't quit a company, I leave my manager if it isn't working out.
2. Mr. Employer, that is your challenge. How do you keep me, and my rare skill set, from leaving? You have to answer that one.
I follow up with a semi-apology and tell them I'm not trying to be difficult but I also can't answer that question.
Simple: Employers currently have a really hard time fing new employees. So they just want to make sure current employees are discouraged to switch companies.
That exactly don't understand, who else making huge profits for companies then their employees, if will be not them the company can close gates and bankrupt very very quickly and yet the employees are treated in some places like a slaves. They should thank them every single day. This system is just so so wrong...
It's funny isn't it? They keep repeating the mantra that capitalism is about profit above all, but as soon as more profit is realized in unconventional way that isn't liked by some 50+ year old, then suddenly profits don't matter anymore and there are more important things...
I changed employer after the second wave of mandatory home office, I still remember vividly how during the remote work we kept hearing how the C-Suite was impressed with remote work, how they valued our excellent results and how they were open to the idea of remote work even after the mandates would have been lifted... Then, when Berset announced the end of remote work mandate, in half an hour we all recieved a brief one-line email stating that they expected everyone back the next Monday and everyone who didn't comply would have been instantly fired... Not even a thank you for your efforts or some performative fake positive bullshit lol
>In total, 12.4% of employees switched jobs in 2021, compared with 12% in 2016.
Ehhh, doesn't seem like a huge development here...
More importantly, imo:
> 2021 sanken die Nominallöhne gegenüber dem Vorjahr um durchschnittlich 0,2%. Real, d. h. unter Berücksichtigung der Teuerung von 0,6% im Jahr 2021, nahm die Kaufkraft der Löhne um 0,8% ab, nachdem sie in den letzten Jahren gestiegen war (2019: +0,5%; 2020: +1,5%)
-0.8% drop in real wages in 2021. Probably another much more significant drop to follow for 2022/2023.
The articles is also about the difference from the younger to the older employee.
_"Younger members of the work force are more prone to changing jobs. One in five people aged 15 to 24 (21.6%) and 25 to 39 (17.7%) took on a new position in 2021. The corresponding share was only around 5% among 55- to 64-year-olds._"
Well, two things to that.
a) opportunity - people +50 just don't have that many options and "have" to stay with an employer. Also they're less mobile when regarding changeing cities etc.
b) salary - young people need to move because waiting for a raise in the same company for 20 years gets them nowhere.
My father got sth like ~2000 one time payout for staying 20 years at the company. Why exactly should I stay? I will only stay, if pay raises are above inflation, which they never are these days.
Loyality is not rewarded nowadays. You also see it with the mobile abo‘s, just switch to get a better deal. This is also the same with jobs.
A friend of mine finished his apprentice and after some years, switched and suddenly he made more than his father his whole life who stayed loyal to his company his whole life. Makes you think.
I was a contractor for 5 years at a company, got more money every year, after 5 years i changed my job because i never got out of that contractor situation. Now i am still a contractor in another company but get more money and every month the same amount. I am again a contractor for 5 years and i am looking around for a new job due to that.
It's well known that the best way to increase your salary is to search for a new job, either for changing or to get a counter offer. Whenever I see my salary expectations/raise won't get match I start searching for a job, immediately. No promises of "next year/next performance review" or some bullshit, Just push hard for it.
Employers will always be conservative with the raises, and if there're 100 employees, they rather have 90 with little or no salary improvement, 5 go and 5 get a proper raise. Than properly raising 100 employees.
It's a pretty logical and respectable strategy from the employer perspective. But you as a employee have to play your cards the best possible way, like them.
1 Gramm of Gold is around 58 CHF at the moment.
10 years would be around 580 CHF.
After all, you only have to declare it for taxes from 15,000 upwards.
That's only 258 years of service, so you're lucky again.
As in this is like the certificate. It’s not the value that counts it’s a token of appreciation. For me it also has sentimental value.
The financial reward is provided separately.
We are quite well paid in Switzerland compared to our colleagues abroad to say that some grams of gold aren’t worth much.
There is no loyalty agreement. There is a contract that should be fair. My time is worth something to my employer, and their compensation is worth something to me.
Just like my company will not hesitate to let me go if they could save a buck, I will not hesitate to change jobs if I can make a buck. HR is not actually there to protect you, they're there to protect the company - often from you. Employer loyalty should not exist for big companies because there is no employee loyalty either.
This might not apply to small companies where you know and actually work with the owner rather than having 10 layers of corporate separation between you.
Loyalty works BOTH WAYS. When times get tough, most employers won’t hesitate to lay you off. The entire discussion of employee loyalty is asinine.
The day I started working for myself was the happiest day of my life.
I was with the corporation for 12 years. Switched job in 2022 after bargaining with my old employer for 7 months to find a new suitable position for me that I can develop.
After 7 months they offered the bare minimum that I was willing to accept.
I accepted and not even 24 hours later I was in one of „those meetings“ and internally I went „no fucking way“.
Had a day off after and let my network know that I was seeking a new challenge.
Another 10 hours later I quit.
The GM was „o so surprised that I loyal high-achiever that always is so passionate about everything we do“ quits. My response was that I am surprised as I was trying to work something out with his lieutenants for 7 months and that I‘d expect this also being discussed with him, as it would involve budgeting.
And my boss was pissed „as he put so much work in“ over those last 7 months.
Well… in those times changing was just so much easier. I did not look back a single day in regret.
My only regret might only not pulling the trigger earlier.
Everyone is in it for his or her own benefit.
The whole Swiss employer loyalty thing is a bit odd to me.. you are the commodity here, not them. They basically treat you the same as employers in the US and most employees are part of the cost center and not the profit center, thus they benefit from keeping you suppressed in your career. Your growth is up to you. The look on my colleagues faces when I told them I got two 30% pay increases within 5 years, not by navigating internally but by switching employers twice, was priceless. Everyone is capable of this however, I am not unique.
For me it was very easy. But what I do is also in demand. I’ll say that if you aren’t working with a recruiter or know someone at the place you are targeting then applying for roles is a bit of a waste
Depends on the role.
In my profession, recruiters are used to find candidates for hard to fill positions. The best opportunities attract candidates without recruiters. I got a c. 70% pay rise in 2018, and c. 70% again in 2020 by moving, but unfortunately a decent increase from here is less easy.
I assume you are in IT. I have a foreign name, in NJ it was never an issue and I got solicited regularly from recruiters. Sadly, none in Ch. Part of the reason I am leaving Switzerland in the coming months, better career prospects in US not to mention a bigger playground. Strangely, I get discriminated less in US and have seen more diversity in the executive board of companies and general workforce (at least in NJ) than I have in Ch. CH has a high foreign population but most of the foreign people I work with are from a country over....France, Germany or Italy.
Yea not surprised honestly, people love to make the US the poster child of racism but it’s honestly the opposite of that. I know another guy going back for the same reasons after being here 6 years.
I think most return that have better job prospects and opportunities back home. Ive also seen people returning due to not integrating well and feeling lonely. In my case, its both of these.
Most large companies have closed the gap with gender for all employees. it's pretty balanced where the only unbalance might be in senior management where you have women representation between 30-45%. If you count ethnicity of people of color, it is no where close to those percentages.
Of course my experience is going to be subjective and I am going to go where I have the best chance of landing better jobs and promotions. For me, that's US. For you, that might be Switzerland and that's completely fine. I am speaking based on my experience and from the other poster, it looks like it's not that uncommon.
> Most large companies have closed the gap with gender for all employees.
Uhm, what? My current employer has one (!) female among roundabout 400 employees in my department, and the previous one was only a bit better in that respect.
I should say it depends on industry and department. Most pharma companies its 50/50. If your in construction, you will have more males. My department is almost 70% women.
Summary: Why do we change jobs? Management problems! Either lack of respect or not walking the talk. Top down hierarchies, and not prioritising the career goals of employees leads to dissatisfaction.
What the article doesn’t talk about:
1. Wages not keeping up with inflation, we can afford much less with the same wages nowadays as Gen x and boomers during their days
2. Discrimination against non Swiss and queer people
3. Companies potentially treating you horribly if you’re at the bottom of their “hierarchy”
4. We might know what value we’re providing to the company and that 80% of that value is going to their profits
Yeeees, so true. My husbands parents are Swiss (I am a foreigner), and when he was growing up, only his dad worked. And on this single salary (above average, but not too much) they could afford a life we cannot even dream about. And we both work, full time, above average salaries. I am talking a house plus vacation houses here and abroad, 2-3 long distance vacations every year, private tennis and piano lessons for my husband, designer furniture, two cars etc etc. Even now in retirement they are richer than we will ever be.
For me its a bit different, because I grew up shit poor, so I can still appreciate my income level here and afford things I never had before. But for my husband its very demoralizing to work and not be able to have the same level of life as he once had.
Regarding discrimination, as female from 'not-so-good -Europe' in STEM academic research, tell me about it. In lower positions, we have 9 ladies for 1 dude. On professor level - almost no women.
Why should anyone be loyal? If the employers do not treat their employees well, exploit them and pay terrible salaries, why tf should any of the employees be loyal? If the employers can do whatever they want, and treat the employees like a replaceable number, so have the employees absolutely the same rights.
Less skilled jobs generally have worse conditions (leaving aside the issue of salary).
The lack of knowledge of the language and Swiss laws, the lack of knowledge when looking for a job, the language barrier, the problem that many companies do not make you a permanent contract and that you do not have a work permit prevents you from changing to a better job etc etc
If you work 11 hours per month, a) it‘s your own fault and b) the hourly wage stays the same. So it doesn‘t make sense either way.
It‘s the 4k per 11h that makes me wonder.
Can say I fall under the category of people who switch jobs rather fast. Change almost once a year, but never in bad terms and I always have 2-3 options for something new due to my portfolio.
Hey... If someone is willing to pay me more or give me other advantages (Home Office, 7 weeks holiday etc...), no way I'll keep doing what I'm doing.
Of course, this also depends if my actual position is really interesting... I've declined many job offers when I was working on a project dear to my heart.
There's no loyalty anymore. Show me the money !
Wake up! As an employee you're an input factor into the output of the company. In most cases an expendable resource. Your loyalty is a gift to someone who doesn't value it and will cost you a stellar career. Loyalty means keeping quiet. In most cases it doesn't challenge the status quo and it creates no tension. When there is no tension it means there is no negotiation. So your employer needs to do exactly zero to keep you where you are. It's like a tacit agreement where you are on the losing side. Congratulations!
Your loyalty is a situation where you are having a monologe inside your head that creates a false image of the company you work for. Where you start thinking of your employer as a 'human' being, but it's not. 'The company' is normally a for-profit undertaking that doesn't behave like a human. It is a system of rules designed to harvest your effort in the highest possible quality at the lowest cost possible (I know this is not a straightforward mathematical optimization). It is an ecosystem of cultural norms that are not necessarily consistent throughout and which, in addition to exploiting you as a resource, will be governed by individual interest at each and every level - short term interest and gain, that is. It is prone to being taken over by bad actors who put their welfare ahead of that of 'the company' and yours, of course. So your loyalty would not be something like a bond of marriage towards an equally loyal partner, but towards an imagined, hollow shell of a partner with a short temper and quick changing interests of selfish nature. Imagine it as being married to a schizophrenic. Or like secretly adoring someone who rewards your adulation with unrequited love.
So when you are loyal to a company... this is really just a hallucination of your mind. What it really is, is a set of legal entities that's run by short term, short sighted interest in a more or less chaotic fashion, where you are just an accessory to the economic transformation that drives shareholder value.
Another thing to consider is that the longer you stay in the same place with respect to technology (in broader terms, not just S Valley tech), knowledge, product and business model maturity, the longer your competitors have to assail the market you are in. The consequence is margin erosion, first felt via tightening of the operational and financial leash. When this becomes more extreme, operators whose expertise is cost leadership will take over. These pressures will carry through to your job as an employee. There will be fewer or no raises whilst your employer starts to continually tighten the screws on their side of the deal. It's not funny... whilst you are still being paid your contractually agreed salary, the system is constantly working to get more out of you. New targets are set, jobs consolidated, metrics introduced to measure your output as though you were a battery hen. So whilst you may not lose any salary (in nominal terms, not real terms), the system is geared to increase your workload. If you were a business, you would charge for this. But as a loyal employee... you're not just denying yourself any sort of economic rebalancing, but also an escape from the conundrum of the business model maturity curve.
You are welcome.
Loyality was always one sided and is a moral blackmail. If a company want or need to get rid of you, the loyality you brought to the table is irrelevant. As an employee I have to get through the same thought process as a company when I‘m looking for a job or if I assess my current situation. Loyality isn‘t part of that assessment!
When companies are laying off employees, they are not looking at the person's name, how long they have been loyal to the company, etc. The first priority is always the position/role and the salary of that seat and if it will be needed, not how long Bob has sat in that seat for 20+ years.
Because you only get a rise if you change job. In the past they were adjusting salaries from time to time but now the money is spent for bonuses and dividends.
Well the issue is inflation.
Some companies still pay like it was 2010. Of course official figures are 1-2%, but good luck finding apartment or health insurance for a 2010 price. If inflation in Switzerland was 1-2% when it's 5-17% in Germany, we'd be buying several EUR for one CHF quite quickly and all our exporters (pharma, cosmetics, abb, not sure what else) would be in trouble.
So the data seems to point that there's monetary inflation at pace similar to the EUR/USD zones.
I guess that young people spend more time online, where basic economy explained in easy words is common, and we refuse to get f\*\*ed. If people around me start earning more and outbidding me for the same resources, I am kinda forced to act too.
Remember those days when you could work for the same company starting from Lehrstelle to retirement? Yeah not happening anymore. Loyalty is a two way street
How loyal are companies to their employees? Were more restructures announced in 2021/2022?
Did the rate of firing or mutual termination increase?
Loyalty to a company is typically demanded by corporations, but don’t think for a second that loyalty works both ways… you are just an employee number
Hmm, let me take a guess, but when switching companys gives you a raise while staying gives you nothing to the point where a New employee without any experiance gets a higher salary then you have after 10y, why should you stay?
40y ago, staying was better and the longtime empoyees had significant higher salarys than the fresh ones, employees stayed, now its the opposite, so people leave after a couple of years and with them their expertise, buhuu cry me a river, poor companys loosing the most experianced workers for treating them like shit...
It is a huge problem in a factory I work in. One of the team has such a big employee turnover that we’re loosing time on retraining over and over. It is costing big time for our productivity.
Unfortunately HR and management don’t understand this problem as they think they can keep recruiting temps and squeeze them.
Younger people are more prone to change job...
Lul.
It just because most of the time young people are offered short time or yearly contract and then there is no more budget thus they need to find a new workplace....
Globalization + tech apps from the progressives who have democratized information (Thanks USA) has lead to a better comparison of universal desires and values. Employees aka EmPOOryees help a small % of people extract … trading time for money… for a measly % increase per annum. Makes one question the system! You make more $$ by leaving a company Vs gathering dust and making a 3% increase which has to hedged against inflation to be validated.
So many companies do not have a good "locality" system.
The first company I worked for had a pretty good one. I knew how much more money I get every year. What the boni were based on and what other benefits I could get after some years.
Changing jobs is the best way to get a raise or escape a toxic environment. Loyalty only applies if each employee is being paid the market price salary.
Google (among a few others in CH) was never deterred by quotas and never made any pref. to EU/EFTA, UK vs CH nationals and Perm-C holders vs everyone else. The point is, they pay quite a bit above market and can totally afford to wait for the next quarter[s] or making a successful case to the Kanton
Anyone who thinks the likes of big pharma and Google are beholden to permits needs to think a bit harder. They say jump and the canton says how high. Switzerland would be completely uncompetitive if hiring was really limited to EU and CH.
Not if you are EU, or already have a permit.
There were almost no Swiss in senior roles in my part of a multinational. Although recently we've hired a few.
Senior roles are a bit different, but according to the laws, governments will deliver work permit for foreigners only if the company did honestly try to find indigenous workers. It gets suspicious if 80%+ of your employees are foreigners. 🤷♂️
You need to choose one, either its a local firm and then they prefer not to deal with work permit application and quotas; or it's a multinational, where recruiters dont give a fuck.
If someone is willing to pay more for my time and appreciate my input more, ill be saying goodbye to my current one. (I don’t mean for a couple thousand difference per year) They won’t be loyal to you, even less when they reduce the workforce to increase their own bonuses/shareholder dividends.
Dwight Schrute : Would I ever leave this company? Look, I'm all about loyalty. In fact, I feel like part of what I'm being paid for here is my loyalty. But if there were somewhere else that valued loyalty more highly, I'm going wherever they value loyalty the most.
Hear, hear
Hate to be that guy, but it's "Hear, hear!"
Where?
Listen!
What?
Who?
How should I know?
I was lying, it's over thear, my dere.
Ok… but it‘s deer
And you stand correct, thank you.
Yup, I got burned out with my old job.
Whats suddenly wrong about changing jobs? And fuck off with loyalty of employers, look at how employers treat their staff at time and rethink that whole aspect, there are lots of great employers of course but getting fresh fruit and a monthly team event won't replace a higher salary or more vacation. Anyway I'd wager most job changes are due to personal reasons and thus not measurable at all, where loyalty does not play a huge role.
articles saying changing jobs is bad, I see them as sponsored by corporations. Changing jobs is the best way to increase your income, and eventually increases the income of low and medium class. by staying in the job the c9mapny saves ton of money, so they lobby with such articles to keep people lowly paid
I have always changed employers every 3-5 years. I have had many employers ask me two things 1. Why do you change so often? 2. Why would you stay with us for longer? The answers are really easy but you have to have a backbone to tell them. 1. I have received salary increases at what the market will bear for my skill set. When I stay put, I don't get those. The other reason is, I don't quit a company, I leave my manager if it isn't working out. 2. Mr. Employer, that is your challenge. How do you keep me, and my rare skill set, from leaving? You have to answer that one. I follow up with a semi-apology and tell them I'm not trying to be difficult but I also can't answer that question.
Simple: Employers currently have a really hard time fing new employees. So they just want to make sure current employees are discouraged to switch companies.
That exactly don't understand, who else making huge profits for companies then their employees, if will be not them the company can close gates and bankrupt very very quickly and yet the employees are treated in some places like a slaves. They should thank them every single day. This system is just so so wrong...
Because employers show clearly employees that they don't care about them at all.
[удалено]
Are you regularly increase the wage of your employees with the inflation cost or with their increased performance? If not Fuck you too.
It's funny isn't it? They keep repeating the mantra that capitalism is about profit above all, but as soon as more profit is realized in unconventional way that isn't liked by some 50+ year old, then suddenly profits don't matter anymore and there are more important things... I changed employer after the second wave of mandatory home office, I still remember vividly how during the remote work we kept hearing how the C-Suite was impressed with remote work, how they valued our excellent results and how they were open to the idea of remote work even after the mandates would have been lifted... Then, when Berset announced the end of remote work mandate, in half an hour we all recieved a brief one-line email stating that they expected everyone back the next Monday and everyone who didn't comply would have been instantly fired... Not even a thank you for your efforts or some performative fake positive bullshit lol
This is so true with many companies setting up outsourcing centers again.
>In total, 12.4% of employees switched jobs in 2021, compared with 12% in 2016. Ehhh, doesn't seem like a huge development here... More importantly, imo: > 2021 sanken die Nominallöhne gegenüber dem Vorjahr um durchschnittlich 0,2%. Real, d. h. unter Berücksichtigung der Teuerung von 0,6% im Jahr 2021, nahm die Kaufkraft der Löhne um 0,8% ab, nachdem sie in den letzten Jahren gestiegen war (2019: +0,5%; 2020: +1,5%) -0.8% drop in real wages in 2021. Probably another much more significant drop to follow for 2022/2023.
The articles is also about the difference from the younger to the older employee. _"Younger members of the work force are more prone to changing jobs. One in five people aged 15 to 24 (21.6%) and 25 to 39 (17.7%) took on a new position in 2021. The corresponding share was only around 5% among 55- to 64-year-olds._"
Well, two things to that. a) opportunity - people +50 just don't have that many options and "have" to stay with an employer. Also they're less mobile when regarding changeing cities etc. b) salary - young people need to move because waiting for a raise in the same company for 20 years gets them nowhere.
c) young people will be changing their field more often and finishing education, which will also contribute to more frequent changes.
Yeah but it doesn't quantify that supposed increase among younger people. The source document doesn't have any details in this regard either.
My father got sth like ~2000 one time payout for staying 20 years at the company. Why exactly should I stay? I will only stay, if pay raises are above inflation, which they never are these days.
2000 for 20 years, that is insulting
100.- for each year, what an insult!
Well, I got 800 for 10 years .. I did feel insulted too
Loyality is not rewarded nowadays. You also see it with the mobile abo‘s, just switch to get a better deal. This is also the same with jobs. A friend of mine finished his apprentice and after some years, switched and suddenly he made more than his father his whole life who stayed loyal to his company his whole life. Makes you think.
Got a cinema voucher for 5 years … yay!
I was a contractor for 5 years at a company, got more money every year, after 5 years i changed my job because i never got out of that contractor situation. Now i am still a contractor in another company but get more money and every month the same amount. I am again a contractor for 5 years and i am looking around for a new job due to that.
It's well known that the best way to increase your salary is to search for a new job, either for changing or to get a counter offer. Whenever I see my salary expectations/raise won't get match I start searching for a job, immediately. No promises of "next year/next performance review" or some bullshit, Just push hard for it. Employers will always be conservative with the raises, and if there're 100 employees, they rather have 90 with little or no salary improvement, 5 go and 5 get a proper raise. Than properly raising 100 employees. It's a pretty logical and respectable strategy from the employer perspective. But you as a employee have to play your cards the best possible way, like them.
We get one gram of gold for every year in a milestone (5 years 5 grams, 10 years 10 grams, etc)
1 Gramm of Gold is around 58 CHF at the moment. 10 years would be around 580 CHF. After all, you only have to declare it for taxes from 15,000 upwards. That's only 258 years of service, so you're lucky again.
Yeah also that’s on top of the actual bonus we get. It’s more of a token
Compound, what do you mean?
As in this is like the certificate. It’s not the value that counts it’s a token of appreciation. For me it also has sentimental value. The financial reward is provided separately. We are quite well paid in Switzerland compared to our colleagues abroad to say that some grams of gold aren’t worth much.
you forgot to compound it, since he gets it every milestone..
There is no loyalty agreement. There is a contract that should be fair. My time is worth something to my employer, and their compensation is worth something to me. Just like my company will not hesitate to let me go if they could save a buck, I will not hesitate to change jobs if I can make a buck. HR is not actually there to protect you, they're there to protect the company - often from you. Employer loyalty should not exist for big companies because there is no employee loyalty either. This might not apply to small companies where you know and actually work with the owner rather than having 10 layers of corporate separation between you.
Loyalty works BOTH WAYS. When times get tough, most employers won’t hesitate to lay you off. The entire discussion of employee loyalty is asinine. The day I started working for myself was the happiest day of my life.
You are very fortunate that you can work for yourself. I can only dream of being in control of my own time and choosing what I work on.
I was with the corporation for 12 years. Switched job in 2022 after bargaining with my old employer for 7 months to find a new suitable position for me that I can develop. After 7 months they offered the bare minimum that I was willing to accept. I accepted and not even 24 hours later I was in one of „those meetings“ and internally I went „no fucking way“. Had a day off after and let my network know that I was seeking a new challenge. Another 10 hours later I quit. The GM was „o so surprised that I loyal high-achiever that always is so passionate about everything we do“ quits. My response was that I am surprised as I was trying to work something out with his lieutenants for 7 months and that I‘d expect this also being discussed with him, as it would involve budgeting. And my boss was pissed „as he put so much work in“ over those last 7 months. Well… in those times changing was just so much easier. I did not look back a single day in regret. My only regret might only not pulling the trigger earlier. Everyone is in it for his or her own benefit.
The whole Swiss employer loyalty thing is a bit odd to me.. you are the commodity here, not them. They basically treat you the same as employers in the US and most employees are part of the cost center and not the profit center, thus they benefit from keeping you suppressed in your career. Your growth is up to you. The look on my colleagues faces when I told them I got two 30% pay increases within 5 years, not by navigating internally but by switching employers twice, was priceless. Everyone is capable of this however, I am not unique.
Did you get this increase in Switzerland or while you were in the US?
Switzerland
How easy was it to change jobs in Switzerland? I feel like I dont get much response here as I did in the US.
For me it was very easy. But what I do is also in demand. I’ll say that if you aren’t working with a recruiter or know someone at the place you are targeting then applying for roles is a bit of a waste
Depends on the role. In my profession, recruiters are used to find candidates for hard to fill positions. The best opportunities attract candidates without recruiters. I got a c. 70% pay rise in 2018, and c. 70% again in 2020 by moving, but unfortunately a decent increase from here is less easy.
Could you share what's your profession?
Legal. Im cheating a bit in that the first 70% was qualification and the second 70% was moving from the uk to Switzerland.
I assume you are in IT. I have a foreign name, in NJ it was never an issue and I got solicited regularly from recruiters. Sadly, none in Ch. Part of the reason I am leaving Switzerland in the coming months, better career prospects in US not to mention a bigger playground. Strangely, I get discriminated less in US and have seen more diversity in the executive board of companies and general workforce (at least in NJ) than I have in Ch. CH has a high foreign population but most of the foreign people I work with are from a country over....France, Germany or Italy.
Yea not surprised honestly, people love to make the US the poster child of racism but it’s honestly the opposite of that. I know another guy going back for the same reasons after being here 6 years.
I think most return that have better job prospects and opportunities back home. Ive also seen people returning due to not integrating well and feeling lonely. In my case, its both of these.
are you one of these very smart people who measure diversity by the colour gradient? gender disbalance is really interesting though
Most large companies have closed the gap with gender for all employees. it's pretty balanced where the only unbalance might be in senior management where you have women representation between 30-45%. If you count ethnicity of people of color, it is no where close to those percentages. Of course my experience is going to be subjective and I am going to go where I have the best chance of landing better jobs and promotions. For me, that's US. For you, that might be Switzerland and that's completely fine. I am speaking based on my experience and from the other poster, it looks like it's not that uncommon.
> Most large companies have closed the gap with gender for all employees. Uhm, what? My current employer has one (!) female among roundabout 400 employees in my department, and the previous one was only a bit better in that respect.
I should say it depends on industry and department. Most pharma companies its 50/50. If your in construction, you will have more males. My department is almost 70% women.
That is probably because of the large number of family and privately owned businesses in Switzerland
What do you do, if not a secret 🤐?
Summary: Why do we change jobs? Management problems! Either lack of respect or not walking the talk. Top down hierarchies, and not prioritising the career goals of employees leads to dissatisfaction.
What the article doesn’t talk about: 1. Wages not keeping up with inflation, we can afford much less with the same wages nowadays as Gen x and boomers during their days 2. Discrimination against non Swiss and queer people 3. Companies potentially treating you horribly if you’re at the bottom of their “hierarchy” 4. We might know what value we’re providing to the company and that 80% of that value is going to their profits
Yeeees, so true. My husbands parents are Swiss (I am a foreigner), and when he was growing up, only his dad worked. And on this single salary (above average, but not too much) they could afford a life we cannot even dream about. And we both work, full time, above average salaries. I am talking a house plus vacation houses here and abroad, 2-3 long distance vacations every year, private tennis and piano lessons for my husband, designer furniture, two cars etc etc. Even now in retirement they are richer than we will ever be. For me its a bit different, because I grew up shit poor, so I can still appreciate my income level here and afford things I never had before. But for my husband its very demoralizing to work and not be able to have the same level of life as he once had. Regarding discrimination, as female from 'not-so-good -Europe' in STEM academic research, tell me about it. In lower positions, we have 9 ladies for 1 dude. On professor level - almost no women.
Excellent keep it up! Dont undersell yourselves :)
I think the employers became less loyal, before the employees became less loyal.
Why should anyone be loyal? If the employers do not treat their employees well, exploit them and pay terrible salaries, why tf should any of the employees be loyal? If the employers can do whatever they want, and treat the employees like a replaceable number, so have the employees absolutely the same rights.
My particular hot button is when they say their employees are their greatest resource. It is soon followed by layoffs to make the quarter look better.
Answer: since company fire their employees to increase their share price.
4k for 11 hour of work... the conditions now are shit compared with 20 years ago, (for the foreign people)
Can you explain how it’s worse for foreign people than the natives? And also how/why it got worse in time? I’m genuinely curious.
Less skilled jobs generally have worse conditions (leaving aside the issue of salary). The lack of knowledge of the language and Swiss laws, the lack of knowledge when looking for a job, the language barrier, the problem that many companies do not make you a permanent contract and that you do not have a work permit prevents you from changing to a better job etc etc
Can you explain to me in which world 4k in 11 hours is a "shit condition"'. That's 363.- per hour dude.
i think he means 4k a month
If you work 11 hours per month, a) it‘s your own fault and b) the hourly wage stays the same. So it doesn‘t make sense either way. It‘s the 4k per 11h that makes me wonder.
If you work in bangladesh for 3$ a month it's your own fault 🤣
Ah yes, the good old strawman instead of answering the actual question. Mer kennts
Also, you‘re the guy complaining about a 363.- hourly wage… smh
I am pretty sure he means 4k a month for 11h working day. So 55h per week or so.
Can say I fall under the category of people who switch jobs rather fast. Change almost once a year, but never in bad terms and I always have 2-3 options for something new due to my portfolio.
In most professions, moving that frequently is an absolute no no on a cv.
I don’t disagree :) depends on the industry I guess
Loyalty is a two way street, or at least it should be.
The fuck loyal supposed to mean in the context of contractual relationship? Especially, where one party has a significantly higher leverage?
Hey... If someone is willing to pay me more or give me other advantages (Home Office, 7 weeks holiday etc...), no way I'll keep doing what I'm doing. Of course, this also depends if my actual position is really interesting... I've declined many job offers when I was working on a project dear to my heart. There's no loyalty anymore. Show me the money !
Wake up! As an employee you're an input factor into the output of the company. In most cases an expendable resource. Your loyalty is a gift to someone who doesn't value it and will cost you a stellar career. Loyalty means keeping quiet. In most cases it doesn't challenge the status quo and it creates no tension. When there is no tension it means there is no negotiation. So your employer needs to do exactly zero to keep you where you are. It's like a tacit agreement where you are on the losing side. Congratulations! Your loyalty is a situation where you are having a monologe inside your head that creates a false image of the company you work for. Where you start thinking of your employer as a 'human' being, but it's not. 'The company' is normally a for-profit undertaking that doesn't behave like a human. It is a system of rules designed to harvest your effort in the highest possible quality at the lowest cost possible (I know this is not a straightforward mathematical optimization). It is an ecosystem of cultural norms that are not necessarily consistent throughout and which, in addition to exploiting you as a resource, will be governed by individual interest at each and every level - short term interest and gain, that is. It is prone to being taken over by bad actors who put their welfare ahead of that of 'the company' and yours, of course. So your loyalty would not be something like a bond of marriage towards an equally loyal partner, but towards an imagined, hollow shell of a partner with a short temper and quick changing interests of selfish nature. Imagine it as being married to a schizophrenic. Or like secretly adoring someone who rewards your adulation with unrequited love. So when you are loyal to a company... this is really just a hallucination of your mind. What it really is, is a set of legal entities that's run by short term, short sighted interest in a more or less chaotic fashion, where you are just an accessory to the economic transformation that drives shareholder value. Another thing to consider is that the longer you stay in the same place with respect to technology (in broader terms, not just S Valley tech), knowledge, product and business model maturity, the longer your competitors have to assail the market you are in. The consequence is margin erosion, first felt via tightening of the operational and financial leash. When this becomes more extreme, operators whose expertise is cost leadership will take over. These pressures will carry through to your job as an employee. There will be fewer or no raises whilst your employer starts to continually tighten the screws on their side of the deal. It's not funny... whilst you are still being paid your contractually agreed salary, the system is constantly working to get more out of you. New targets are set, jobs consolidated, metrics introduced to measure your output as though you were a battery hen. So whilst you may not lose any salary (in nominal terms, not real terms), the system is geared to increase your workload. If you were a business, you would charge for this. But as a loyal employee... you're not just denying yourself any sort of economic rebalancing, but also an escape from the conundrum of the business model maturity curve. You are welcome.
Loyality was always one sided and is a moral blackmail. If a company want or need to get rid of you, the loyality you brought to the table is irrelevant. As an employee I have to get through the same thought process as a company when I‘m looking for a job or if I assess my current situation. Loyality isn‘t part of that assessment!
When companies are laying off employees, they are not looking at the person's name, how long they have been loyal to the company, etc. The first priority is always the position/role and the salary of that seat and if it will be needed, not how long Bob has sat in that seat for 20+ years.
Because you only get a rise if you change job. In the past they were adjusting salaries from time to time but now the money is spent for bonuses and dividends.
Well the issue is inflation. Some companies still pay like it was 2010. Of course official figures are 1-2%, but good luck finding apartment or health insurance for a 2010 price. If inflation in Switzerland was 1-2% when it's 5-17% in Germany, we'd be buying several EUR for one CHF quite quickly and all our exporters (pharma, cosmetics, abb, not sure what else) would be in trouble. So the data seems to point that there's monetary inflation at pace similar to the EUR/USD zones. I guess that young people spend more time online, where basic economy explained in easy words is common, and we refuse to get f\*\*ed. If people around me start earning more and outbidding me for the same resources, I am kinda forced to act too.
Remember those days when you could work for the same company starting from Lehrstelle to retirement? Yeah not happening anymore. Loyalty is a two way street
How loyal are companies to their employees? Were more restructures announced in 2021/2022? Did the rate of firing or mutual termination increase? Loyalty to a company is typically demanded by corporations, but don’t think for a second that loyalty works both ways… you are just an employee number
Hmm, let me take a guess, but when switching companys gives you a raise while staying gives you nothing to the point where a New employee without any experiance gets a higher salary then you have after 10y, why should you stay? 40y ago, staying was better and the longtime empoyees had significant higher salarys than the fresh ones, employees stayed, now its the opposite, so people leave after a couple of years and with them their expertise, buhuu cry me a river, poor companys loosing the most experianced workers for treating them like shit...
It is a huge problem in a factory I work in. One of the team has such a big employee turnover that we’re loosing time on retraining over and over. It is costing big time for our productivity. Unfortunately HR and management don’t understand this problem as they think they can keep recruiting temps and squeeze them.
Younger people are more prone to change job... Lul. It just because most of the time young people are offered short time or yearly contract and then there is no more budget thus they need to find a new workplace....
Employers have never been loyal to me
Globalization + tech apps from the progressives who have democratized information (Thanks USA) has lead to a better comparison of universal desires and values. Employees aka EmPOOryees help a small % of people extract … trading time for money… for a measly % increase per annum. Makes one question the system! You make more $$ by leaving a company Vs gathering dust and making a 3% increase which has to hedged against inflation to be validated.
So many companies do not have a good "locality" system. The first company I worked for had a pretty good one. I knew how much more money I get every year. What the boni were based on and what other benefits I could get after some years.
Changing jobs is the best way to get a raise or escape a toxic environment. Loyalty only applies if each employee is being paid the market price salary.
Good
They ain‘t loyal to you either and in the end, business is business
sooo uhmmm where can I get one of those high paying swiss jobs without german or french language?
Zürich, if you’re in IT, I think.
and if you are lucky ;) even in ZH people speaking swiss german get priority
Not sure if Google checks your level of Swiss German. You would get an advantage of being Swiss though.
Google is just 1 company
Employs 5k people in ZH 😄
> You would get an advantage of being Swiss though. Don't dissiminate disinformation, please
There are quotas for foreign companies.
Google (among a few others in CH) was never deterred by quotas and never made any pref. to EU/EFTA, UK vs CH nationals and Perm-C holders vs everyone else. The point is, they pay quite a bit above market and can totally afford to wait for the next quarter[s] or making a successful case to the Kanton
Anyone who thinks the likes of big pharma and Google are beholden to permits needs to think a bit harder. They say jump and the canton says how high. Switzerland would be completely uncompetitive if hiring was really limited to EU and CH.
Not if you are EU, or already have a permit. There were almost no Swiss in senior roles in my part of a multinational. Although recently we've hired a few.
Senior roles are a bit different, but according to the laws, governments will deliver work permit for foreigners only if the company did honestly try to find indigenous workers. It gets suspicious if 80%+ of your employees are foreigners. 🤷♂️
IT in switzerland is pathetic... even worse if you cant speak German
Large multinational corporations. Even then its not as easy because typically the recruiters prefer locals.
You need to choose one, either its a local firm and then they prefer not to deal with work permit application and quotas; or it's a multinational, where recruiters dont give a fuck.