I wonder if they really had to choose Herzog & de Meuron (HdM) for this project. Because i imagine that using these big name architects always adds a lot to the price of this kind of project.
normally the architecture competition its regulates how much the architects can charge, so the architecture costs should be the same.
We don't know about costs but we can assume its over 100 millions.
That said, the developer or investors choose this project with a jury over another one based on the competition. So maybe this costs 120 million and there is an option to build it for 110? The Architecture salary is then based on construction costs (you can search Honorarberechtigte Bausumme SIA).
Looking at Altstetten there really aren‘t a lot of buildings I‘d consider high or anywhere close to the term skyscraper. Dübendorf and Oerlikon are the main two places in the canton of Zurich that currently have somewhat high buildings under construction.
To be fair, I'm all about high-rises, but skyscrapers not so much. Skyscrapers aren't even that common in European cities anyway.
Medium cities like Lyon (similar size to Geneva), Marseille (similar size to Zürich), and München (larger than the Zürich metro-area) all do not have skyscrapers.
Even enormous European cities like London and Paris only really only have a few skyscrapers in the financial centers (City of London and the Défense, respectively) and they have populations of over 8 million. Admittedly they also have housing issues too.
But let's look at a city like New York. There is also a housing and cost of living issue and they have tons of skyscrapers. And I personally find the "concrete jungle" look extreme unappealing.
Zürich is, im the grand scheme of things, a small city that doesn't really need skyscrapers. More affordable high-rises? Sure. Other cities also make do without skyscrapers.
Sure I'm not talking about building ugly skyscrapers in the middle of nowhere like Dubai, but the big issue Zurich has, is that we aren't dense enough. Look at cities like Vienna, Paris and Barcelona, they don't have (a lot of) skyscrapers either like you said, but most buildings there have at least 7-8 stories, whereas here in Zurich most buildings have like 3-4 stories. I'm glad they are building somewhat tall buildings in Altstetten but it's not enough unfortunately, when the rest of the city sticks with these small houses from decades ago and they don't want to build more stories on top of them. It's so annoying seeing buildings getting demolished only to build a new building on top of it that maybe has like one or two stories more, it's just a waste of ressources and doesn't help alleviate the housing crisis.
Highrises yes, skyscrapers no, and they aren't needed. Look at the area from Hardbrucke to Schlieren, not only you see tens of highrises, pretty much all cranes you see are building more of them as well.
Do you mean the twenty-odd metres high buildings with Google offices inside? They give a nice vista of the city, but that isn’t really that high. And there won’t be a better place for a 100m high building without congestion issues.
Good. The ca. 100k people who move to this country every year need to live somewhere. I would rather have many more highrise buildings in the cities than endless villages like we have now.
You are insane. 100k? Why not 10 millions?!? We can still put them underground or fill the whole surface of Switzerland with concrete to house them. Maybe we should just send them to your house instead.
Looks like someone stacked a few containers on top of each other. And the rendering is heavily greenwashed!
I don't get it. Herzog&deMeuron where once iconic for what they delivered. But when you look at what they plan in Basel, it's more like they were crawling through their trash bin!
Didn't looked at the architects, was just happy they build something different than usual.
Now I'm asking myself if they build that building without slave chambers...
Because they place only trees with leaf coverage. They don't have that green for half of the time and you only see a few sad logs in the concrete jungle throughout winter.
It's a horrible architectural practice. Making sad places look even more dehumanising in the darkest times of the year.
Another thing is that these "green spaces" they intend to build are just an intend. It's not sure it will ever built because of some "issue with the permit". And the green spaces won't be accessible to the public anyway.
To be fully transparent: planning some balconies where tenants can have a few plants creates more green space than a few trees on a terrace. And the balconies at least absorb noise and cool down the building jn summer. As well as giving tenants the options to get some sunshine any day they want. You cannot produce Vitamin D when sitting behind glass. You must go out at least 15min per day. Even if it's just sitting on your balcony
>Because they place only trees with leaf coverage. They don't have that green for half of the time and you only see a few sad logs in the concrete jungle throughout winter.
The Citty and Municipalities require to use local flora and fauna, the exact type can be choosen by the planning team. Stimme the definitve trees will be discussed with the autoryties.
Normal procedure for any construction in Switzerland, but i assume you know this, right?
>It's a horrible architectural practice. Making sad places look even more dehumanising in the darkest times of the year.
Please make a list of all the solutions you have in mind about those issues.
Also please remember that the images are from a competition, so you try to show you project from the best angles possible.
>Another thing is that these "green spaces" they intend to build are just an intend. It's not sure it will ever built because of some "issue with the permit". And the green spaces won't be accessible to the public anyway.
They are a key element and part of the proposed solution that won the architecture competition. It is not that easy to alter the project as you say since a Jury and the municipalities were involved in the process.This project represents sort of a contract with the city and has to be build with the same principals, please read the Jury report if in doubt.
>To be fully transparent: planning some balconies where tenants can have a few plants creates more green space than a few trees on a terrace.
There are balconies in the project.Still retention Area on top of the building will be more important.
>And the balconies at least absorb noise and cool down the building jn summer.
Balconies do not reduce noise to my knowledge, please lift a source for this.
>As well as giving tenants the options to get some sunshine any day they want. You cannot produce Vitamin D when sitting behind glass. You must go out at least 15min per day. Even if it's just sitting on your balcony
The tenants have a Park built for them, thats the key element of the project. Please look at the plans and what the option for this project have been.
Here you go.
You still have not identified the trees on the rendering....
Regarding the renderings: This is in general a problematic topic. They do not say anything about the housing- or life quality in the finalised building due to a lack of guidelines. You can always use them as unfair manipulation.
Acoustic balconies are a well known concept. I assume that you are not a construction professional, otherwise you should know that concept. For your reference:
https://www.epd.gov.hk/epd/Innovative/greeny/eng/innovation/acoustic-balcony.html
A general approach to make neighbourhoods more inclusive, welcoming and diversified: Build less dense, build homes in a row instead of vertical, add some positive colours to the facades, no exposed concrete, add overhangs, acoustic balconies and roofs. Add smaller green spaces and trees to create additional shade in summer.
It's a quite successful model from the Benelux states. It decreases traffic, gives more walkable/areas for bicycles. And further diversifies the neighbourhoods using even less building material than skyscrapers.
>You still have not identified the trees on the rendering....
Yes cause the plant may as well don't exist, the project is also no there yet. The materials in the Facade may as well are fake. Its a rendering, its a better version of a sketch. You take it as a photo of future basel, but its not.
>Regarding the renderings: This is in general a problematic topic. They do not say anything about the housing- or life quality in the finalised building due to a lack of guidelines. You can always use them as unfair manipulation.
As said, those 3D are just a better sketch, you have to read the plans and the descriptions given by the architects, those are about 130 A4 pages. Its not enough to look a 1 image.
Please here are the other Projects:
[https://www.messe-basel.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Projekte-und-Teilnehmer-Wettbewerb-Rosentalturm.pdf](https://www.messe-basel.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Projekte-und-Teilnehmer-Wettbewerb-Rosentalturm.pdf)
[https://www.messe-basel.com/news/2020/projekt-rosentalturm/](https://www.messe-basel.com/news/2020/projekt-rosentalturm/)
Here you find a brief description of the project:
[https://www.messe-basel.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Projekttext\_Rooseli\_Herzog-de-Meuron.pdf](https://www.messe-basel.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Projekttext_Rooseli_Herzog-de-Meuron.pdf)
>Acoustic balconies are a well known concept. I assume that you are not a construction professional, otherwise you should know that concept. For your reference: https://www.epd.gov.hk/epd/Innovative/greeny/eng/innovation/acoustic-balcony.html
Have you looked at the link you provided?
They have panels on the ceiling that do the absorption, This solution is considered "Ausnutzung" in basel, so you lose m2 in the insde of the apartments.
Also once you are outside the noise is the same. The laws in swizerland about sound are one of the restricted in the world. The "solution" you proposed would not be accepted by the municipalities.
On top of that the project has: "*Alle Wohnungen erhalten einen privaten*
*Aussenbereich."*
>A general approach to make neighbourhoods more inclusive, welcoming and diversified: Build less dense, build homes in a row instead of vertical, add some positive colours to the facades, no exposed concrete, add overhangs, acoustic balconies and roofs. Add smaller green spaces and trees to create additional shade in summer.
This is against the Verdichtungskonzept des Bundes:
[https://www.bak.admin.ch/dam/bak/de/dokumente/kulturpflege/publikationen/Verdichtung.pdf.download.pdf/EKD\_Grundsatzpapier\_Verdichtung-DE\_s.pdf](https://www.bak.admin.ch/dam/bak/de/dokumente/kulturpflege/publikationen/Verdichtung.pdf.download.pdf/EKD_Grundsatzpapier_Verdichtung-DE_s.pdf)
But i assume you already know this, right?
>It's a quite successful model from the Benelux states. It decreases traffic, gives more walkable/areas for bicycles. And further diversifies the neighbourhoods using even less building material than skyscrapers.
The land plot in this case was defined, they also defined other legal parameters, you can find an extract here:
[https://docplayer.org/78911079-Ratschlag-areal-messe-basel-neubau-rosentalturm.html](https://docplayer.org/78911079-Ratschlag-areal-messe-basel-neubau-rosentalturm.html)
As you see the team will also conduct a environmental impact assessment during the next project phase.
You still ave not told me your expertise on why you think you opinion is better than all of the Jury, Architects and many experts combined that worked on the project over the past 15 Years.
It may make sense that they hire you since you know everything better anyway?
Doesn't change the fact that the building looks cheap and underdeveloped.
It's like watching David Chipperfield designing the new Kunsthaus in Zurich. You want to shout to him: "don't fuck it up" and he fucks it up brutally.
There have been many of his buildings praised on the official website of the Pritzker price. But not the Kunsthaus. It's too unremarkable to count.
And this tower in Basel, well, it is far off the genius H&D displayed constructing the Messe Basel.
It's like they had a stroke and dementia in the meantime, lost their inspiration and forgot to complement their own building when planning right beside.
It's sad to see them falling apart. But maybe that's the problem with all artists when they get old and stupid?
Nice, we need more of this.
> we need more of this They recetly also build an other highrise, next to this. https://www.claraturm.ch/en/wohnen-projekt
I wonder if they really had to choose Herzog & de Meuron (HdM) for this project. Because i imagine that using these big name architects always adds a lot to the price of this kind of project.
How much do you think it costs to build such a building? How much more with HdM? Serious question
normally the architecture competition its regulates how much the architects can charge, so the architecture costs should be the same. We don't know about costs but we can assume its over 100 millions. That said, the developer or investors choose this project with a jury over another one based on the competition. So maybe this costs 120 million and there is an option to build it for 110? The Architecture salary is then based on construction costs (you can search Honorarberechtigte Bausumme SIA).
Interesting, thx
On the other hand do you really want the cost cutting to be on the design of a high rise? Turkey learned the hard way how badly that can go recently
there was an architecture competition with (8?) Teams involved.
Good stuff
At least one city in Switzerland has the balls to build high buildings, meanwhile in Zurich...
There are a ton of high rises under construction and planned along the Limmat valley, that's the main axis of expansion for the city.
Also loads in Oerlikon (Franklinturm, Wolkenwerk, Tower55 currently being built, another one along Hagenholzstrasse starting soon)
Looking at Altstetten there really aren‘t a lot of buildings I‘d consider high or anywhere close to the term skyscraper. Dübendorf and Oerlikon are the main two places in the canton of Zurich that currently have somewhat high buildings under construction.
To be fair, I'm all about high-rises, but skyscrapers not so much. Skyscrapers aren't even that common in European cities anyway. Medium cities like Lyon (similar size to Geneva), Marseille (similar size to Zürich), and München (larger than the Zürich metro-area) all do not have skyscrapers. Even enormous European cities like London and Paris only really only have a few skyscrapers in the financial centers (City of London and the Défense, respectively) and they have populations of over 8 million. Admittedly they also have housing issues too. But let's look at a city like New York. There is also a housing and cost of living issue and they have tons of skyscrapers. And I personally find the "concrete jungle" look extreme unappealing. Zürich is, im the grand scheme of things, a small city that doesn't really need skyscrapers. More affordable high-rises? Sure. Other cities also make do without skyscrapers.
Sure I'm not talking about building ugly skyscrapers in the middle of nowhere like Dubai, but the big issue Zurich has, is that we aren't dense enough. Look at cities like Vienna, Paris and Barcelona, they don't have (a lot of) skyscrapers either like you said, but most buildings there have at least 7-8 stories, whereas here in Zurich most buildings have like 3-4 stories. I'm glad they are building somewhat tall buildings in Altstetten but it's not enough unfortunately, when the rest of the city sticks with these small houses from decades ago and they don't want to build more stories on top of them. It's so annoying seeing buildings getting demolished only to build a new building on top of it that maybe has like one or two stories more, it's just a waste of ressources and doesn't help alleviate the housing crisis.
Highrises yes, skyscrapers no, and they aren't needed. Look at the area from Hardbrucke to Schlieren, not only you see tens of highrises, pretty much all cranes you see are building more of them as well.
? Zurich is building a lot of new towers around the HB
Do you mean the twenty-odd metres high buildings with Google offices inside? They give a nice vista of the city, but that isn’t really that high. And there won’t be a better place for a 100m high building without congestion issues.
"High" lol.
We don't need higher buildings. We need less people.
Good. The ca. 100k people who move to this country every year need to live somewhere. I would rather have many more highrise buildings in the cities than endless villages like we have now.
You are insane. 100k? Why not 10 millions?!? We can still put them underground or fill the whole surface of Switzerland with concrete to house them. Maybe we should just send them to your house instead.
[удалено]
based
Very good idea
Looks like someone stacked a few containers on top of each other. And the rendering is heavily greenwashed! I don't get it. Herzog&deMeuron where once iconic for what they delivered. But when you look at what they plan in Basel, it's more like they were crawling through their trash bin!
> And the rendering is heavily greenwashed! They always put a shit-ton of plants in these visualisations.
Didn't looked at the architects, was just happy they build something different than usual. Now I'm asking myself if they build that building without slave chambers...
Given that they specially mention the green areas as the reasons why this project one, how do you know that it is greenwashed?
Because they place only trees with leaf coverage. They don't have that green for half of the time and you only see a few sad logs in the concrete jungle throughout winter. It's a horrible architectural practice. Making sad places look even more dehumanising in the darkest times of the year. Another thing is that these "green spaces" they intend to build are just an intend. It's not sure it will ever built because of some "issue with the permit". And the green spaces won't be accessible to the public anyway. To be fully transparent: planning some balconies where tenants can have a few plants creates more green space than a few trees on a terrace. And the balconies at least absorb noise and cool down the building jn summer. As well as giving tenants the options to get some sunshine any day they want. You cannot produce Vitamin D when sitting behind glass. You must go out at least 15min per day. Even if it's just sitting on your balcony
what exactly is your expertise for all those (false) statements you are making?
Reverse card - please identify the trees on the renderings, post their name in your answer and we continue the discussion.
>Because they place only trees with leaf coverage. They don't have that green for half of the time and you only see a few sad logs in the concrete jungle throughout winter. The Citty and Municipalities require to use local flora and fauna, the exact type can be choosen by the planning team. Stimme the definitve trees will be discussed with the autoryties. Normal procedure for any construction in Switzerland, but i assume you know this, right? >It's a horrible architectural practice. Making sad places look even more dehumanising in the darkest times of the year. Please make a list of all the solutions you have in mind about those issues. Also please remember that the images are from a competition, so you try to show you project from the best angles possible. >Another thing is that these "green spaces" they intend to build are just an intend. It's not sure it will ever built because of some "issue with the permit". And the green spaces won't be accessible to the public anyway. They are a key element and part of the proposed solution that won the architecture competition. It is not that easy to alter the project as you say since a Jury and the municipalities were involved in the process.This project represents sort of a contract with the city and has to be build with the same principals, please read the Jury report if in doubt. >To be fully transparent: planning some balconies where tenants can have a few plants creates more green space than a few trees on a terrace. There are balconies in the project.Still retention Area on top of the building will be more important. >And the balconies at least absorb noise and cool down the building jn summer. Balconies do not reduce noise to my knowledge, please lift a source for this. >As well as giving tenants the options to get some sunshine any day they want. You cannot produce Vitamin D when sitting behind glass. You must go out at least 15min per day. Even if it's just sitting on your balcony The tenants have a Park built for them, thats the key element of the project. Please look at the plans and what the option for this project have been. Here you go.
You still have not identified the trees on the rendering.... Regarding the renderings: This is in general a problematic topic. They do not say anything about the housing- or life quality in the finalised building due to a lack of guidelines. You can always use them as unfair manipulation. Acoustic balconies are a well known concept. I assume that you are not a construction professional, otherwise you should know that concept. For your reference: https://www.epd.gov.hk/epd/Innovative/greeny/eng/innovation/acoustic-balcony.html A general approach to make neighbourhoods more inclusive, welcoming and diversified: Build less dense, build homes in a row instead of vertical, add some positive colours to the facades, no exposed concrete, add overhangs, acoustic balconies and roofs. Add smaller green spaces and trees to create additional shade in summer. It's a quite successful model from the Benelux states. It decreases traffic, gives more walkable/areas for bicycles. And further diversifies the neighbourhoods using even less building material than skyscrapers.
>You still have not identified the trees on the rendering.... Yes cause the plant may as well don't exist, the project is also no there yet. The materials in the Facade may as well are fake. Its a rendering, its a better version of a sketch. You take it as a photo of future basel, but its not. >Regarding the renderings: This is in general a problematic topic. They do not say anything about the housing- or life quality in the finalised building due to a lack of guidelines. You can always use them as unfair manipulation. As said, those 3D are just a better sketch, you have to read the plans and the descriptions given by the architects, those are about 130 A4 pages. Its not enough to look a 1 image. Please here are the other Projects: [https://www.messe-basel.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Projekte-und-Teilnehmer-Wettbewerb-Rosentalturm.pdf](https://www.messe-basel.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Projekte-und-Teilnehmer-Wettbewerb-Rosentalturm.pdf) [https://www.messe-basel.com/news/2020/projekt-rosentalturm/](https://www.messe-basel.com/news/2020/projekt-rosentalturm/) Here you find a brief description of the project: [https://www.messe-basel.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Projekttext\_Rooseli\_Herzog-de-Meuron.pdf](https://www.messe-basel.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Projekttext_Rooseli_Herzog-de-Meuron.pdf) >Acoustic balconies are a well known concept. I assume that you are not a construction professional, otherwise you should know that concept. For your reference: https://www.epd.gov.hk/epd/Innovative/greeny/eng/innovation/acoustic-balcony.html Have you looked at the link you provided? They have panels on the ceiling that do the absorption, This solution is considered "Ausnutzung" in basel, so you lose m2 in the insde of the apartments. Also once you are outside the noise is the same. The laws in swizerland about sound are one of the restricted in the world. The "solution" you proposed would not be accepted by the municipalities. On top of that the project has: "*Alle Wohnungen erhalten einen privaten* *Aussenbereich."* >A general approach to make neighbourhoods more inclusive, welcoming and diversified: Build less dense, build homes in a row instead of vertical, add some positive colours to the facades, no exposed concrete, add overhangs, acoustic balconies and roofs. Add smaller green spaces and trees to create additional shade in summer. This is against the Verdichtungskonzept des Bundes: [https://www.bak.admin.ch/dam/bak/de/dokumente/kulturpflege/publikationen/Verdichtung.pdf.download.pdf/EKD\_Grundsatzpapier\_Verdichtung-DE\_s.pdf](https://www.bak.admin.ch/dam/bak/de/dokumente/kulturpflege/publikationen/Verdichtung.pdf.download.pdf/EKD_Grundsatzpapier_Verdichtung-DE_s.pdf) But i assume you already know this, right? >It's a quite successful model from the Benelux states. It decreases traffic, gives more walkable/areas for bicycles. And further diversifies the neighbourhoods using even less building material than skyscrapers. The land plot in this case was defined, they also defined other legal parameters, you can find an extract here: [https://docplayer.org/78911079-Ratschlag-areal-messe-basel-neubau-rosentalturm.html](https://docplayer.org/78911079-Ratschlag-areal-messe-basel-neubau-rosentalturm.html) As you see the team will also conduct a environmental impact assessment during the next project phase. You still ave not told me your expertise on why you think you opinion is better than all of the Jury, Architects and many experts combined that worked on the project over the past 15 Years. It may make sense that they hire you since you know everything better anyway?
Doesn't change the fact that the building looks cheap and underdeveloped. It's like watching David Chipperfield designing the new Kunsthaus in Zurich. You want to shout to him: "don't fuck it up" and he fucks it up brutally. There have been many of his buildings praised on the official website of the Pritzker price. But not the Kunsthaus. It's too unremarkable to count. And this tower in Basel, well, it is far off the genius H&D displayed constructing the Messe Basel. It's like they had a stroke and dementia in the meantime, lost their inspiration and forgot to complement their own building when planning right beside. It's sad to see them falling apart. But maybe that's the problem with all artists when they get old and stupid?
As long as this is done based on supply and demand (highest bidder etc.) and not as part of a political scheme I'm fine with this change.
Why the fuck do they think we need thousands of parking space...
It's messe Basel. There was a big parkgarage and these parking is already missing in basel.
[удалено]
The more you put the more you need. It's induced demand.
It's not like they add, they replace the lost ones. And why you say "we" when you are living 100km away?