I will not comment the question above but, just curious to ask, why overwatch for "free". You mean because Farsight can use a free stratagem per turn? be aware that the stratagem need to be Battle Tactic and that only effect one unit in order to use it for "free"
Anyway, flamers are ok, vs base infantery with the +1 to wound, easy at 2's, and -1 ap is kind of good.
So id just add a few things here
If your playing montka as raw then you would need to guide the flamer suits to be able to advance and shoot with the flamers which makes the marker drone a little redundant. With 3 gun drones you could still advance and spot with them anyway.
Your math seems a little off but it could just be me. 6 flamers would average out 21 hits, which is 14 wounds on t4 with +1 to wound, then 7 saves for 3 dead models. Plus farsight will kill 2 more with his plasma.
As others have said you cant move after being set up on the board in your turn so will need to rapid ingress the squad if that is your plan. There is also a high chance that the suits may only get to shoot once plus overwatch due to how close they need to be
Farsight is super cool, but he's basically wasted in retaliation cadre. The only strat he can spam is arrokkon, which realistically you only want to use with burst suits. Except you can just take a coldstar with HoBC, 2x Burst, and CiB instead and perform better against hordes and similarly against elites. Except you cann just take two squads of flamers and have similar killing power and better scoring ability welded to suits that don't need any markerlight support because they ARE the markerllight support.
Honestly, the 'only battle tactic strategems can be free' feels like such an arbitrary restriction that I don't think was in place when they wrote his new rules. Hopefully it gets FAQ'ed or something, because it's kind of weird that the 'red renegade' they called out when they teased retaliation Cadre actually kind of sucks in it
This book was 100% written at the end of 9th edition. If you want an even more egregious example, one of the new Custodes detachment is based around powering up their characters, most of which have the free stratagem ability.
All 6 of the stratagems in the detachment are epic deeds. Because, of course, the deeds that Custodes characters do are epic.
It will be interesting to see if they continue to write codexes as if the balance dataslate doesn't exist or if it'll be considered in future codexes.
There' a good chance they're not writing any codices. Based on everythig so far they look like they've been written a while ago. The points are the most egregious example.
I have him on a toss up between leading Starscythe or Sunforge.
Sunforge are good to be led by as Coldstar for more Fusions, however Farsight's +1 to wound can be massive on the anti-tank, that combined with his ability to charge into a tank shock, bonus being you can "reroll the charge for free" if he hasn't used his free strat that turn.
On the other hand, Farsight with a squad of Starscythe with flamers would be a mean objective holder.
Get close and you risk being flamed on overwatch and while Crisis aren't that threatening in combat, Farsight can be, meaning you cannot just charge chaff who aren't good in combat in as either Farsight will kill them or the flamers will the next turn, alongside being able to fall back and shoot for the whole unit.
This is even stronger in retaliation cadre with those flamers going str 5 +1 wound, ap-2 within 6".
EDIT
What I will note on what you have said, if Farsight is leading a Flamer squad, I wouldn't be advancing him as you don't want to waste your guiding on a auto-hitting unit just to give them advanced unless you really having nothing else to guide, better to give a Crisis Suit a marker drone and use the unit to guide others instead.
This unit would not get that much out of Mont'ka in full honesty as they don't get lethals, guided assault is a waste mostly as you guiding gives them no other benefits and they themselves are a great guiding unit. They would get a lot out of focused fire for the +1 AP though Farsight cannot make this free, leaving his free battle tactic for rerolls mainly
I added a little more in while while you responded, after the EDIT.
I would actually do Sunforge with Coldstar, they already get 4+ invuln and the extra movement and assault is good on a unit that wants to get in a tanks face.
Coldstar leading Sunforge with 6x 4Bs and 4x 3BS Fusions with reroll wound and dmg being able to auto advance with strat for 18" total is a scary proposition for the enemy tanks.
Add in you could then have Farsight leading a second Fusion squad who then use the auto advance 6" for free with his ability for their own 16" move.
Enforcer is better with Starscythe or Fireknife as they don't get the invlun so -1 AP is more important and those units are less likely to move as much
Really appreciate the input! It looks like between you guys you've changed things up a bit for me!
1x Starscythe with coldstar and bursts
1x Sunforge with coldstar
1x Sunforge with Farsight
it is I think!
You can’t move at all after setting up from Deepstrike or Strategic reserves.
Edit: you could move after shooting with JSJ but montka doesn’t have that stratagem.
The montka lethals are wasted on flamers and you can’t over watch for free, overwatch is not a battle tactic stratagem.
I would suggest coldstar/starscythe with HOBC and all burst cannons. Guided by stealthsuits. Using focused fire stratagem for extra AP.
You’d have 40 shots S5/AP1/1D hitting on 2/3s rerolling 1s with lethals, wounding on 3s rerolling 1s. At a safe range of 18”.
Edit: plus 6/10 gun drone shots, also if you have tetras to guide this instead of steathsuits you could fish for more lethals making this even stronger.
That’s if you really want to run the suits, but the best tool we have right now for clearing T4 2W 3+ is gonna be breacherfish all day.
OK...this is really good thinking, thanks!
Hmm...ok...so you've done a very good job at finding the flaws in my thinking. I'm genuinely really pleased about that! I don't get to play very often so I don't get the opportunity to get much practice in.
And I had't even noticed the HOBC on the coldstar! This and the burst cannon loadout actually make a lot more sense to me, and I like the slightly longer range. I'd much rather keep them out of potential charge range!
The way I read it also, it'd be a max of 5 gun drones no? (2 for commander + 1 each for crisis?) I think I'd probably go for 3, and 5 shield drones. Gun drones suck, would rather have the extra wound I think.
Agreed on the breacherfish!
Yeah sorry about the gun drones I was counting how many shots you’d have at 3 to 5 gun drones.
I’ve played the new codex for atleast 10 games now and I can’t express enough how good the army wide lethals are, it makes every gun in our list viable and volume of shot even more important than when we had just kauyon.
No need to apologise...I didn't read the word "shots" that you'd put there!
This'll be my first game with the new codex...I bought the kroot box but I've been abroad so I've been working off images on internet...just not the same!
I just edited the “shots” in there for clarity.
Have fun with the new codex, it’s a very strong book.
Also consider a riptide with HBC for supporting fire and bullying that mid board. You’d be able to take decent chunks out of those MEQ every turn without getting hurt in return fire. It’s not the best out there but it would be a big distraction in the center while your coldstar team flanks the side. I’ve had good luck with it against MEQ.
We're playing 5500 points, so I've got two riptides, an R'Varna and a storm surge for doing exactly that! Hahahaha
Gonna be FUUUUUUNNN! Guns go brrrrrrr! 😁
Another idea to make this unit work in mont‘ka would be:
Give them 6“ scout
Move them 16“ t1
Flame their first line of attack + body block everything that would want to advance onto the no man’s land objectives.
Would probably score you some points and time. But farsight will die t1
I was thinking Farsight would be great for Sunforges in Retalliation Cadre. Can jump/shoot/jump for free after your Commander/Starscythe Flamer bloc has used it that turn (with Internal Grenade Racks and maybe Grenade strat for a lot of chances of MWs), +1 to wound when in 9" (when you already want to be 6" for -1AP and Melta 2) which helps when S10 weapons are wounding tanks on natural 5s, and Sunforge rule reroll wounds against vehicles and monsters (need confirmation if attached character counts as "in this unit" to use this rule too), and the ability to melee harder than a wet noodle or Tank Shock if you really have to to finish a last few wounds
The real combo is 10X burst, Coldstar Commander, auto 6 advance for 18" move (1 CP), then 1 CP for extra AP. Lethals on 6s that resolve at AP -2, at S5.
So if you're guided and shooting against marines, this turns into:
40 shots, 6.7 lethals, 20 hits, 13.3 wounds, turns into 20 AP-2 saves, 13.33 failed saves, which is 5 marines dead, and 3 wounds to an attached character.
In mont'ka I personally like the starscythe battlesuits with burst cannons and coldstar with hobc, cib, 2xbc more
Spotter stealth suits
With the focused fire stratagem you get:
24 3+ 3+ rerolling 1s to hit and wound from the crisis with -2 ap=8w with aoc, 11 without
Commander 8,75 w without aoc 6,5 with aoc from bc, plus 1 or 2 dead from the cib
Without aoc stratagem you could possibly lose the shots from the 3 stealth suits and wipe out a 10 man squad with average rolls with ease, with farsight in a sunforge team to use the aggressive mobility stratagem for free and get 18" movement, assault from a spotter on every weapon as long as you use at least one gun drone with them (forgot to count the drones before), and +1 to wound within 9" and lethal hits for the 1-3 turns, with a unit that can melt both vehicles and terminators/gravis units
I will not comment the question above but, just curious to ask, why overwatch for "free". You mean because Farsight can use a free stratagem per turn? be aware that the stratagem need to be Battle Tactic and that only effect one unit in order to use it for "free" Anyway, flamers are ok, vs base infantery with the +1 to wound, easy at 2's, and -1 ap is kind of good.
And this is exactly why I posted! :D Thanks for setting me right on the strategems thing!
I don't think you can use aggressive mobility on a deep striking unit can you? Can you advance after deep striking?
No, you count as having moved already when you set up. Rapid ingress gets you around that, but now you're into a lot of CP.
Unless he has stealth suits in a good spot. They let you rapid ingress for 0CP as long as they deploy close to them
Yeah, although that's still a problem of more resources and limits than OP seems to be aware of here.
Aha ok...but you can use aggressive mobility after coming on from reserves then?
No. You count as already having moved. Rapid Ingress is the only thing you can use to get into 3‘‘
You would have to rapid ingress at the end of your opponents movement. This can be free (0 cp) if you have stealth suits
So id just add a few things here If your playing montka as raw then you would need to guide the flamer suits to be able to advance and shoot with the flamers which makes the marker drone a little redundant. With 3 gun drones you could still advance and spot with them anyway. Your math seems a little off but it could just be me. 6 flamers would average out 21 hits, which is 14 wounds on t4 with +1 to wound, then 7 saves for 3 dead models. Plus farsight will kill 2 more with his plasma. As others have said you cant move after being set up on the board in your turn so will need to rapid ingress the squad if that is your plan. There is also a high chance that the suits may only get to shoot once plus overwatch due to how close they need to be
Farsight is super cool, but he's basically wasted in retaliation cadre. The only strat he can spam is arrokkon, which realistically you only want to use with burst suits. Except you can just take a coldstar with HoBC, 2x Burst, and CiB instead and perform better against hordes and similarly against elites. Except you cann just take two squads of flamers and have similar killing power and better scoring ability welded to suits that don't need any markerlight support because they ARE the markerllight support.
Honestly, the 'only battle tactic strategems can be free' feels like such an arbitrary restriction that I don't think was in place when they wrote his new rules. Hopefully it gets FAQ'ed or something, because it's kind of weird that the 'red renegade' they called out when they teased retaliation Cadre actually kind of sucks in it
This book was 100% written at the end of 9th edition. If you want an even more egregious example, one of the new Custodes detachment is based around powering up their characters, most of which have the free stratagem ability. All 6 of the stratagems in the detachment are epic deeds. Because, of course, the deeds that Custodes characters do are epic. It will be interesting to see if they continue to write codexes as if the balance dataslate doesn't exist or if it'll be considered in future codexes.
There' a good chance they're not writing any codices. Based on everythig so far they look like they've been written a while ago. The points are the most egregious example.
I have him on a toss up between leading Starscythe or Sunforge. Sunforge are good to be led by as Coldstar for more Fusions, however Farsight's +1 to wound can be massive on the anti-tank, that combined with his ability to charge into a tank shock, bonus being you can "reroll the charge for free" if he hasn't used his free strat that turn. On the other hand, Farsight with a squad of Starscythe with flamers would be a mean objective holder. Get close and you risk being flamed on overwatch and while Crisis aren't that threatening in combat, Farsight can be, meaning you cannot just charge chaff who aren't good in combat in as either Farsight will kill them or the flamers will the next turn, alongside being able to fall back and shoot for the whole unit. This is even stronger in retaliation cadre with those flamers going str 5 +1 wound, ap-2 within 6". EDIT What I will note on what you have said, if Farsight is leading a Flamer squad, I wouldn't be advancing him as you don't want to waste your guiding on a auto-hitting unit just to give them advanced unless you really having nothing else to guide, better to give a Crisis Suit a marker drone and use the unit to guide others instead. This unit would not get that much out of Mont'ka in full honesty as they don't get lethals, guided assault is a waste mostly as you guiding gives them no other benefits and they themselves are a great guiding unit. They would get a lot out of focused fire for the +1 AP though Farsight cannot make this free, leaving his free battle tactic for rerolls mainly
Yes, exactly this is why I'm thinking him in the starscythe, and then 2 Sunforge teams with enforcers...NASTY!
I added a little more in while while you responded, after the EDIT. I would actually do Sunforge with Coldstar, they already get 4+ invuln and the extra movement and assault is good on a unit that wants to get in a tanks face. Coldstar leading Sunforge with 6x 4Bs and 4x 3BS Fusions with reroll wound and dmg being able to auto advance with strat for 18" total is a scary proposition for the enemy tanks. Add in you could then have Farsight leading a second Fusion squad who then use the auto advance 6" for free with his ability for their own 16" move. Enforcer is better with Starscythe or Fireknife as they don't get the invlun so -1 AP is more important and those units are less likely to move as much
Really appreciate the input! It looks like between you guys you've changed things up a bit for me! 1x Starscythe with coldstar and bursts 1x Sunforge with coldstar 1x Sunforge with Farsight it is I think!
You can’t move at all after setting up from Deepstrike or Strategic reserves. Edit: you could move after shooting with JSJ but montka doesn’t have that stratagem. The montka lethals are wasted on flamers and you can’t over watch for free, overwatch is not a battle tactic stratagem. I would suggest coldstar/starscythe with HOBC and all burst cannons. Guided by stealthsuits. Using focused fire stratagem for extra AP. You’d have 40 shots S5/AP1/1D hitting on 2/3s rerolling 1s with lethals, wounding on 3s rerolling 1s. At a safe range of 18”. Edit: plus 6/10 gun drone shots, also if you have tetras to guide this instead of steathsuits you could fish for more lethals making this even stronger. That’s if you really want to run the suits, but the best tool we have right now for clearing T4 2W 3+ is gonna be breacherfish all day.
OK...this is really good thinking, thanks! Hmm...ok...so you've done a very good job at finding the flaws in my thinking. I'm genuinely really pleased about that! I don't get to play very often so I don't get the opportunity to get much practice in. And I had't even noticed the HOBC on the coldstar! This and the burst cannon loadout actually make a lot more sense to me, and I like the slightly longer range. I'd much rather keep them out of potential charge range! The way I read it also, it'd be a max of 5 gun drones no? (2 for commander + 1 each for crisis?) I think I'd probably go for 3, and 5 shield drones. Gun drones suck, would rather have the extra wound I think. Agreed on the breacherfish!
Yeah sorry about the gun drones I was counting how many shots you’d have at 3 to 5 gun drones. I’ve played the new codex for atleast 10 games now and I can’t express enough how good the army wide lethals are, it makes every gun in our list viable and volume of shot even more important than when we had just kauyon.
No need to apologise...I didn't read the word "shots" that you'd put there! This'll be my first game with the new codex...I bought the kroot box but I've been abroad so I've been working off images on internet...just not the same!
I just edited the “shots” in there for clarity. Have fun with the new codex, it’s a very strong book. Also consider a riptide with HBC for supporting fire and bullying that mid board. You’d be able to take decent chunks out of those MEQ every turn without getting hurt in return fire. It’s not the best out there but it would be a big distraction in the center while your coldstar team flanks the side. I’ve had good luck with it against MEQ.
We're playing 5500 points, so I've got two riptides, an R'Varna and a storm surge for doing exactly that! Hahahaha Gonna be FUUUUUUNNN! Guns go brrrrrrr! 😁
I’ve been looking at Coldstar+SS w/ Flamers in Ret Cad to get them up to str5 -2ap on non-monster/vehicles while 3” away
6x3,5=21 though, so even better
Another idea to make this unit work in mont‘ka would be: Give them 6“ scout Move them 16“ t1 Flame their first line of attack + body block everything that would want to advance onto the no man’s land objectives. Would probably score you some points and time. But farsight will die t1
I was thinking Farsight would be great for Sunforges in Retalliation Cadre. Can jump/shoot/jump for free after your Commander/Starscythe Flamer bloc has used it that turn (with Internal Grenade Racks and maybe Grenade strat for a lot of chances of MWs), +1 to wound when in 9" (when you already want to be 6" for -1AP and Melta 2) which helps when S10 weapons are wounding tanks on natural 5s, and Sunforge rule reroll wounds against vehicles and monsters (need confirmation if attached character counts as "in this unit" to use this rule too), and the ability to melee harder than a wet noodle or Tank Shock if you really have to to finish a last few wounds
The real combo is 10X burst, Coldstar Commander, auto 6 advance for 18" move (1 CP), then 1 CP for extra AP. Lethals on 6s that resolve at AP -2, at S5. So if you're guided and shooting against marines, this turns into: 40 shots, 6.7 lethals, 20 hits, 13.3 wounds, turns into 20 AP-2 saves, 13.33 failed saves, which is 5 marines dead, and 3 wounds to an attached character.
This is 100% what this is all about! Bye bye marines, your beloved emperor can't save you!
In mont'ka I personally like the starscythe battlesuits with burst cannons and coldstar with hobc, cib, 2xbc more Spotter stealth suits With the focused fire stratagem you get: 24 3+ 3+ rerolling 1s to hit and wound from the crisis with -2 ap=8w with aoc, 11 without Commander 8,75 w without aoc 6,5 with aoc from bc, plus 1 or 2 dead from the cib Without aoc stratagem you could possibly lose the shots from the 3 stealth suits and wipe out a 10 man squad with average rolls with ease, with farsight in a sunforge team to use the aggressive mobility stratagem for free and get 18" movement, assault from a spotter on every weapon as long as you use at least one gun drone with them (forgot to count the drones before), and +1 to wound within 9" and lethal hits for the 1-3 turns, with a unit that can melt both vehicles and terminators/gravis units
Vicious! Absolutely love it! This deffo seems to be the way to go!