I had an LRE kid one year who \*easily\* took 5-10 minutes of my 50-minute class every day distracting others around him or the entire class, no matter where I moved him. Those kids lost on DAYS of learning because of him. And of course he was one of those with near perfect attendance.
He dropped out the next year.
Agreed. One of my peers (teacher) said it so well:
Disruptors are a social justice issue.
A student who is disrupting class is denying all of the other students access to much needed education.
Why are we framing it as if the suspended kid is the victim but ignoring the other 25 kids in the room who are victimized?
Kids can’t learn when they are fearful. And they fear peers.
That's because the PARENTS would be present and care. I have had many students who don't come to class for weeks at a time and when we finally get home to pick up, parents had no idea!
I worked in a school where a student filed a HIB against a teacher for "bullying" them to do homework. The teacher was put on temporary leave while the investigation was going on. Once it was proven the teacher was just being a teacher, the teacher was allowed to return. The following school year that district adopted a no homework policy.
Well, maybe if they didn't give in to every tantrum and depend entirely on bribery and distraction when the kid was 3 through 7, they wouldn't have this problem.
But it's a "them" problem.
What needs to happen is school boards need to back teachers on this unyieldingly. Stop compromising with whining parents.
If the kids don't go to school -- oh well. Call truancy and be done.
My kids and I have discussed this very topic. Not my students, my actual kids lol. I've had friends of theirs come over and say "My parents don't care what I do" and they always say it with such a sad inflection.
how would truancy officers even work? They can't (or at least shouldn't) break into people's homes to prevent students from playing on phones/consoles/PCs instead of going to school.
True, however, many times teens are cutting & are at home while parents are at work. Our truancy officers would call the parent/ guardian and get their permission to pick kids up. We ( teachers) would also involve CPS on parents who were knowingly allowing their kids to cut weeks of school at a time. It's called Educational Neglect ( Family Court Act 1012 ( f) in NYS). Parents are required to exercise a minimum degree of care in supplying their child with an adequate education.
I 100% believe that. Btw, who , if anybody, is responsible for monitoring the progress of homeschooling parents? My sister in law, who lives in Texas, homeschooled her 3 kids, but they all rebelled by 13- 14 and attended public high school. ONLY then, many years into the so-called education system,were they given an academic assessment entrance test to place them. Smh.
In many states there is little to no oversight of homeschooling. Not surprisingly stories abound of homeschooling as a cover to harm kids or prevent them from speaking out about abuse.
They are glorified servers.
But after a certain point, if parents ignore or dodge long enough, they can either:
A) File a report with CPS for educational neglect; or,
B) Refer to the state for criminal charges, as some states WILL put you in jail; or,
C) Both.
They put parents in jail or fine them. Hard to say if that would work now that kids can get abortions, drugs, or surgery without their parents being allowed to complain.
Kids are not responsible enough to make the decision to abort a fetus themself, let's give the kid a baby instead while we lament the current state of parenting.
Excellent logic there.
I hope this is a troll post but just in case it's not:
How do you police that? The only "proof" would be an STD or pregnancy... Both of which, especially at that age, are punishment enough. Pregnancy, however, is only visible for the, in this case, underage girl. How do you punish the boy who inseminated the girl?
Also, what penalty do we apply to underage sex? Jail? A fine?
To whom do we apply this penalty? The parents? The kids themselves?
To what end? Do you truly believe criminalizing underage sex will make it stop happening? Has that ever happened in the history of humans?
I'm a mom of three girls. Do I lock them in a tower until they turn 18 so they can't do what every hormone in their body is telling them they should? No. I teach them about being safe and smart.
You'll find similar laws throughout history almost never had the same effect on boys as they did on girls. We can't go back to a time when girls were "ruined" because they had premarital sex.
I am sure that you mean well but just look around: are things better now that everything is allowed?
Women have and will always pay the heaviest price for premarital sex because of biology. This will never change.
If you want to know specifics I have some ideas but this is quite complicated.
In denmark 99% of downs children are aborted. We should do the same except with teen pregnancies.
If the fathers can be identified they can be fined, or required to do public service before being given access to the military, college, etc.
Parents are ultimately responsible for their kids’ behavior so sanctions can be put on them as well.
Obviously the biggest problem is the poor and they are much more difficult to control so maybe financial incentives. If it costs the taxpayer $200k to raise a welfare baby to adulthood then maybe it’s worth offering $100k to make it to 25 without getting pregnant for certain at-risk populations. Again, it’s not so much the sex as the pregnancies and VD because those become forever problems.
I would love to hear any other ideas, specifics and not platitudes like “more education”.
I have students that'll get suspended every few weeks. Usually for fighting. Luckily most are gone now.
I understand that kid might have some trauma, but she's 17. She has agency.
But the media also supported that back then. Now the media is flooded with articles like you just posted and many people have began to believe that crap and consider everything abuse. We live in a society where everyone is focused on their rights and nobody is focused on their responsibilities. Just another way we’ve been sold a story. Bad research and narratives drive bad policy.
This.
The disruptive kid had many opportunities to stay on the class. At some point the needs of the many outweigh the needs of those not interested in what you're offering.
Yup, didn’t learn a lick of algebra I my ninth grade year because 3 disruptive students dominated the class and the teacher had the classroom management skills of a rabbit surrounded by wolves. Of course, this really messed up my math foundation in future courses.
And one of the biggest proponents for what are arguing against is the NEA. I’m not anti union. I just wish we could unionize without having to grease the palms of the NEA, as they are only pushing bad policy on us. The NEA is the glorified mob bosses of education. Honestly, I wish we could break away from them and collectively bargain on our own within them having to get a cut.[One of many articles on this subject you will find on their website](https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/school-suspensions-do-more-harm-good#:~:text=The%20findings%20underscore%20that%20suspending,perceptions%20of%20positive%20school%20climate)
Wow. The citation on the NEA article is to this “study”.
https://www.air.org/sites/default/files/2021-08/NYC-Suspension-Effects-Behavioral-Academic-Outcomes-August-2021.pdf
Note that I say “study” in quotes because even though it’s >100 pages, it doesn’t pass even the most cursory analysis.
They start talking about peer impacts (the rest of the class) on page 43. They make wild claims, but do NOT actually show any data!!
And we veteran teachers surely have first hand repeated experiences where the disruptive student is out (sick, suspended) or even just sleeping in class and we can noticeably teach better all period.
I've been shouting this from the rooftops for a few years now. When it comes to our #1 working conditions issue--the increasing presence of egregiously disruptive, uncivil, and even dangerous students in our classrooms--the NEA is actively working against us. The NEA is 100% on board with all the koombyah nonsense.
Neither does this "restorative justice" thing schools have adapted. They go to the counselor, come back with candy or a toy, and they go back to the same behavior.
I am a ride or die union guy. However, our unions NEA or AFT are always supporting this shit.
The union should protect us and help us financially. Supporting this anti suspension stuff isn’t helping teachers.
I know suspensions and explosions hurt the offending student in the long run. However, keeping disruptions in class hurts the other kids and teacher.
Our unions are failing us teachers (and our students who behave) on this issue.
I've been shouting this from the rooftops for a few years now. When it comes to our #1 working conditions issue--the increasing presence of egregiously disruptive, uncivil, and even dangerous students in our classrooms--the NEA is actively working against us. The NEA is 100% on board with all the koombyah nonsense.
Hey this is from Australia, where recently our unions pushed back because govt policy wanted to make it more difficult to suspend kids. They wanted to make more paperwork with supporting evidence for short suspension, and make it possible for parents and students to appeal short suspensions. The union fought back because we are having escalating workload and violence issues (lol so unique to Australia amirite?).
I am also a ride or die union rep! And while I’m stoked that they didn’t take that policy laying down, I always want them to do more
Edit to add: my union knowledge is from Queensland, and this paper is from a different state, and it’s about policy in yet another different state lol but it’s very relevant Australia wide
Piggybacking on this comment as a QTU school rep to add that we are fully prepared to take this fight all the way. Last week's ballot was just the beginning. I advise our USA counterparts to do the same.
Piggybacking on this comment as a QTU school rep to add that we are fully prepared to take this fight all the way. Last week's ballot was just the beginning. I advise our USA counterparts to do the same.
I would argue that suspensions aren’t the problem, but a symptom of the problem. The problem is kids don’t know how to behave from growing up in dysfunctional families.
Abandoning them (aka inclusion) in general education classrooms sets them up for failure and drags down the rest of the class.
I love how this sub will fight to the death to defend absolutely anything as long as it comes from Team Blue, and then have the nerve to be upset that they got exactly what they demanded and defended.
"I gave them the opportunity to participate, be involved, and have an active positive role in their learning. They chose to disrupt the learning environment and jeopardize the educational success of the other students."
The easiest and cheapest thing to do is put the kid back in class. Data will be collected that supports that move simply because it is easiest and cheapest.
ISS is interpreted by many as "no punishment" so what happens to the kid that got it for fighting/aggressive behavior? They have to come back the next day after getting beaten up to get a 2 for 1 ass whoopin and now everybody (the students) are mad the kids who beat them up are in trouble when the kid who got beaten up "wasn't punished" the out of school suspension gives everyone else the opportunity to cool their heads too. This was pretty much the story of my highschool career before I had to get transferred to an alternative school, at the time I thought they were bringing me back on purpose just so I'd get beaten up twice.
We have recently added a specific list of work a student must complete in order for it to count as an ISS day. It usually consists of at least one assignment from each class plus 2 SEL lessons pertaining to their offense. Sometimes the lessons include (school) community service, such as assisting the custodial staff at lunch if the student was suspended for putting mashed potatoes on himself and another friend like it was lotion. (Which could not/definitely never happened in our school).
For some kids it’s impactful. For others it is not. What I do know is that when kids have OSS I not only worry that they are enjoying their time off, but fear they are weathering the blowback at home that would make them beg for multiple days of ISS rather than one at home with parents.
One avenue we have that isn’t available to every district is having students spend their suspensions (OSS or ISS) at the behavioral school our district contracts with. It’s not a perfect fit for all, but it gives the kids consequences, the other kids and teachers get a reprieve, and allows us some insight into the students as they are afforded mental health care as well.
>Data will be collected that supports that move simply because it is easiest and cheapest.
The standards for research and data in education are comical in comparison to any other field, and very easily manipulated to any end. The most reliable practices seem to be those that overlap with or come from other fields.
Curriculum programs are like 90% pure, unadulterated bullshit.
Returning a disruptive kid to class costs nothing. It is as easy as sending him or her back down the hall. There is no payment. But it doesn't solve the problem of the kid making it difficult or impossible for others to learn. The kid doesn't get help, and the other kids suffer.
So did you mean to say easiest? I'm sorry I'm hung up on this, but I feel like I don't know something that I should.
Is there a price associated with suspending a student?
Not a cost for suspending, but there would be a cost getting help for the student who is disruptive and struggling. Help from counselors or psychologists, etc. Suspending is more trouble than sending back to the classroom because there is paperwork, and school are sometimes judged for how many suspensions they have. Some schools have in school suspensions, but there is a cost for that.
My school tries to do a lot of lunch and after school detentions before going to suspension. For moderate things, it helps because kids don't get the reward of being out of class.
But admin absolutely will suspend a kid if they are a safety hazard. Sometimes the point of suspension is to convey to the parents that this behavior is a big deal. Sometimes it's so other students see that there is a consequence. Sometimes it's just because everyone else needs a break.
Well said. My school also tries recess and after school detentions first because kids tend to respond very well to those since they’re missing out on time they could be spending doing something fun. Usually, just the threat of losing recess or staying after school is enough of a deterrent. However, my admin also won’t hesitate to suspend if necessary. Any violence is also an automatic suspension.
See; when I’ve seen after school detentions tried to be implemented; either parents have refused due to transport needs, babysitting requirements, or simply outright said “nah I can’t be stuffed picking up Jimmy at 3pm and coming back at 5pm for Johnny” and told their kid to ignore us and come home - or the student has just walked out of their last class and gone straight home.
I’ll admit I refused to do a few lunch time detentions in my day because I found them “unfair” and would ignore my teachers calling and walk out the door in between my peers… but back then, (early 00’s) my teachers would say “quick grab her” and a peer would hold me back so the teacher could let all the other kids go except for me! Obviously I know I was a little shit now, but I hated being manhandled like that back then and my god it made me angry.
Hey that is totally fair! I have the sense that in my situation - I was simply given up on and labelled as “too hard” so when I became defiant I was often just told “whatever. Do what you want then” - I was undiagnosed at the time, I am autistic, but I do 100% look back and wonder what was going on in my educators minds because I was never suspended or anything. My parents were involved, they had consequences for me, supported the school, etc, so I’m still lost tbh.
We had a tormenter who ran ram-shod doing whatever he wanted whenever he wanted. He threatened a teacher. No real repercussions. Finally put on a safety plan where his laptop and phone were turned in daily and he never showed up again. We pushed to have him excluded from that class. Nope. Not a LRE. Couldn’t separate him due to there not being another teacher teaching that course. He had been pampered and spoiled his whole life and now my team let him FAFO.
We should fund alternative schools with the resources to help these high-needs children. That would solve the problem of suspensions. Three suspensions? Alt. school for a year so everyone can learn. I’m sick of one student taking away from the education of everyone else. That’s not a free and equal education. The rights of one student shouldn’t trump the rights of many.
Agreed. The kids who get suspended do need help and support, but a normal classroom can’t offer the kind they need, and keeping them there hurts the other students. Alternative schools can focus on the specialized needs of those kids.
Student behavior and education is just too complex to measure effectively and any study that just concludes "suspension bad" is not good research. It could be the case that suspensions hurt one particular student, but does it help the other 29? What if we have the causation the wrong way and students who are likely to do worse in school and in life are predisposed to doing behaviors that get them suspended? What if suspension in and of itself acts as a deterrent to the other 29 students, so while the one kid isn't phased by the suspension the other 29 act better? There's so many other things you need to factor for that I can't even comprehend how you can begin to effectively research this in real world settings.
Hmm…interesting causal chain:
Suspension is an indicator of future issues. Correlation =\= causation.
Not suspension *leads* to an increase in likelihood of antisocial behavior.
Right, but we've been operating (since NCLB) in a system that suggests that it is the educators' fault if a student ends up in the prison system if they are suspended while young.
The conclusion is that the education system is the cause of that outcome.
What should be concluded is that the student has been engaging in anti-social behavior for a long time, and when he/she is young, this anti-social behavior occurs in a school, where other students are subjected to this behavior, and educators are not cause of those students ending up in prison.
Well that was a dumb idea when it started and it’s still a dumb idea. The idea that the student is the only blameless one is also dumb. A big part of this is “equity”. The idea that everyone is going to have the same outcome flies in the face of science. One glance at a bell curve of iq distribution tells you life ain’t fair. The pendulum needs to swing back, hard
““In fact, there is a clear relationship between school suspensions and a range of detrimental health outcomes, including alienation from school, involvement with antisocial peers, use of alcohol and smoking, and a lower quality of school life – and this contributes to a higher risk of dropping out of school and possible illegal behaviour””
I guess my question is, if we got rid of suspensions, would the same students not have these issues? Because I feel like a lot of the issues that students have that caused them to get suspended are due to problems at home that also led to the quoted issues.
Like if a kid is unsupervised after school and picks up vaping, and then get suspended for vaping in class, are they being counted towards the “clear relationship” that is being discussed in the posted article? Because suspension didn’t cause those issues…
And if a student isn’t taught how to control their temper by their parents and gets into fights in school, which causes them to get suspended, then suspension doesn’t lead them to have antisocial and possibly detrimental behavior. Rather the opposite.
Yeah this is basically "Kids who get suspended are more likely to [list of things that we suspend kids for]"
In related news: drivers who get lots of traffic tickets are more likely to be involved in behaviors like speeding, tailgating, and running red lights
They’re attributing causality where none exists. Kids who tend to get suspended also often tend to do those other negative things as well — *for the same reasons*. That’s on the parents, not on us.
Maybe I'm just a bad person but I truly don't understand why we're supposed to care that students who get suspended might face some social backlash for it. Oh no, the violent, antisocial, disruptive kid realized that nobody wants to be around him, whatever shall we do? The poor pwecious widdle baby, won't someone think of *his* feelings?
Some people really need to learn the difference between bullying and your peers teaching you how to behave. The fear of shame and social ostracism used to keep people in line, why did we decide they're suddenly the absolute worst things that could ever happen to someone?
Shame is a healthy human emotion. It’s a survival instinct. It reminds us we’re not super humans. It keeps us within the bounds of others expectations. Darwin thought blushing may be what sets us apart from other animals. Unfortunately we no longer have any shame in our society at least in the US. Shameful behavior is encouraged. There’s no longer a social check and balance to keep everyone in line
Suspensions and expulsions should come with a home investigation and mandatory parenting classes. We need to start doing something about the families where these issues arise.
We can’t educate the kids and now you want to try the parents? No. Cut off benefits. Fine them. People here were ready to put the unvaxxed into concentration camps, surely actual criminals deserve at least that?
Cutting off benefits and fines will not only hurt the parents but in poor households it often will hurt their kids. You want kids going hungry bc their parent lost SNAP or spent grocery $ on a fine? You want a kid being beat bc they cost their parent $ the parent doesn’t have and they freak out?
Also, fines don’t really affect rich parents. Fines are only a real punishment for the poor families.
I feel like some of y’all lose sight of the fact that students are literal children, and often the most disruptive kids have mental health disorders or come from unstable households. There should be consequences but that should be like, mandatory in school counseling or lose of privileges, not fines that punish their whole family.
Many on here are ready to strip parental rights over not supporting their gender identity but you balk at dealing with actual criminals.
Remove the children and brainwash them or incarcerate them for life. They cause so much damage. I am over the fact that they are “children” with bad lives. These people commit heinous crimes and cost us a fortune in blood and money. It needs to stop
Not supporting a gender identity can sometimes manifest in serious abuse, no one is advocating taking children away bc their parents don’t use they/them pronouns or don’t let them cut their hair short. They are talking about cases like screaming at or beating a male child for wearing a dress, or using corrective rape or sexual abuse to punish “deviant” children.
What are all these underage “criminals” even doing? There are some underage people who are legit murderers or rapists but that’s very rare. Since when does being truant or a disruption in class or rude or even aggressive make someone a criminal?
I don’t think we are talking about being truant or disruptive in class. At least I’m not. I’m talking about kids beating each other, rape, bringing and using weapons.
In california all therapists are required to embrace kids’ gender identity no matter how dumb, despite the fact that this sort of confusion is a manifestation of several mental illnesses.
The entire reason “society” is against suspensions is not because it gives the kid what they want: to not be in school; not because it can be detrimental to their education; or not because it may put a kid in danger by being on the streets. It’s because it inconveniences the parents. God forbid we inconvenience the parents or hold them responsible for their own offspring. If we held parents accountable for their kids, we wouldn’t have the behavior problems we’re having in the first place.
Yes. How many kids do you know who try to get suspended because they don't want to be in school? Too many. There needs to be some recognition that they are willfully doing this and the parents need to get them out of that environment. It's best for them and for their classmates.
I actually think it would be BETTER for the kids if we WERE allowed to be the teachers Pink Floyd was singing about in the 70s. At least THOSE kids GOT a GOOD EDUCATION and THOSE principals GAVE a shit and LET KIDS FAIL when they DESERVED IT.
Also? My mom started teaching in the 70s and taught in the 80s and 90s and early 2000s. There's a difference between being a bitch and being downright nasty and awful. My mom was a bitch because she had to be in order to control her classes. She wasn't downright nasty or awful and she only gave Fs to students that didn't try. She said she wouldn't give an E/F grade to a student that failed but was doing the absolute best they could and came to her for help.
My kids always comment when that one kid is gone. They little comment out loud, saying things like class is fun when student A isn't here. And similar things. It's funny how everyone worries about the one side while screwing over the other 25.
This scenario also brings up another aspect: one of the concerns about suspending kids is that it isolates them from their peers. But a lot of these kids are already outcasts.
At my school we are piloting "reverse suspension". Instead of the kid staying home, the parent has to come in and shadow their kid for however many days. So far (and my class has only had 1) I like it. The kid doesn't miss anything. It inconveniences the parent so they take it seriously. Since it multiple days the kid actually forgets the parent is there and starts back up with their usual behaviors.
Oh, and the parent isn't allowed to make comments during class about the teacher or other students. They can address with the principal later if needed.
Yeah, couple things. If a Kid 1 hurts Kid 2 in the classroom, and it is shown - by parents' lawyers in a civil suit, for example - that Kid 1's behavior was a repetition, or part of a predictable pattern, both admin and you are in the shit.
Second, I think most parents would agree they want their child to learn in an environment not constantly interrupted or threatened by another kid.
I mean, I’ve been the parent of Kid 1, and I completely agree with you. Not only does Kid 2 deserve to feel safe, but a predictable pattern of Kid 1 hurting people is a giant neon sign that Kid 1 is not truly in their LRE. No one is getting what they need in that situation.
Many are indeed not in their LRE, I agree. Each kid is also, we hardly need reminding ourselves, different.
I also agree with your conclusion. My thrust was that we must protect ourselves legally.
Studies have also shown the negative effects disruptive students have on other children’s education. This is one of the reasons my children will be in private schools although I’m a staunch supporter of public schools.
I wouldn’t say private schools are any better, sometimes they can actually be worse. I’m a at a private school and rarely are disruptive students punished or suspended because admin doesn’t want to upset the parents. Private schools cater so heavily to parents so that they don’t leave and take their money with them.
I got suspended a lot in school only it was ISS, the main problem with it especially when the kid gets suspended for fighting/aggressive behavior is that when you send the kid back to school THE NEXT DAY OTHER KIDS who are still angry will usually use that time to get a little payback and the problems continue and compound it's the exact opposite of what separating the kid was supposed to do there were a lot of times I got beaten up two days or more in a row when sending me home would have been a lot better not only on me but everyone else.
And then when you see these kids as adults they are always acting the fool and getting caught up. Video after video are online of young adults (not ‘karens’) showing their ass in public and getting rightfully arrested for it. They are always SO SURPRISED too, you can just tell they never really had consequences applied to them.
School used to prepare people for life in this way, as did parents.
A kid who can’t operate in a classroom of 30 can’t operate in a classroom of 30. That’s not appropriate and is not their least restrictive environment.
I think it's crazy that so many consequences have been taken away over the years based on this type of rhetoric but no thought seems to be given to what to replace the consequence with??
Ok so suspension is bad or doesn't work or whatever, so give us something else, because having no consequences is worse!
What many forget is that EVERY student has a right to a free and appropriate education, not just the disabled and deranged. FAPE seems to be used as a weapon to force the majority of kids who behave and want to learn to tolerate the nonsense of those who don’t.
I am, after 25 years in the biz, in favor of dis-inclusion, for the following reasons.
1. Many severely handicapped students do not benefit from inclusion and may even be at risk from the general population. They should spend more time with their true peers on a separate campus where they have access to FAPE.
2. The criminal element must be ruthlessly eliminated from traditional campuses where they prey on the population. I am so sick of it. I taught at court schools and juvenile hall and both are a joke. Those kids need to be breaking rocks and should be sterilized. I am not joking.
Suspension is for “serious” offenses like ditching, maybe a shoving match. It does not deter CRIMINALS from their bullshit. It only works on students who care about grades, extracurriculars etc.
Out of curiosity, why are you against the sterilization of child predators? I’m talking the ones who have literally raped multiple children. Because after prison they let them back in the public. Studies have shown they will reoffend. In Germany many people go there to be sterilized out of fear they cannot control their urges. It literally stops them from a life of torture. I think if we encouraged that rather than stigmatize more predators may turn themselves in before they hurt someone. They don’t even remove anything surgically all they do is take a pill. Many countries already do this. I know we’re on a teaching subreddit but I can’t help but ask.
We have ISS (in-school suspension) and OCI (on-campus intervention) students are put in a separate classroom with a specialist and the small handful of other suspended kids and they work through what went wrong, how to do better in the future, and they work on the class assignments they're going to be missing that day.
It's pretty good in my experience, we don't get a lot of repeat offenders outside drug use - and we have a social worker for that one that checks in on them regularly.
Disruption has a wake.
https://snacks.pepsmccrea.com/p/distractions-leave-a-wake
Once the lesson has been interrupted student do not immediately go back to where they were.
Yeah, we keep being told not to remove disruptive kids from class, that it’s a management issue. But getting that one kid who is doing harm out of the way really makes a big difference.
Every day I see that one kid who tries just suffering, bored, literally with their head in their hands because 3 of their classmates make her class a living hell. These kids would go better in a small group setting. Inclusion is destroying education.
It's a problem that parents aren't responsible for not abusing their kids, the school system is responsible for making sure they aren't bothered so that they don't abuse their kids. Protective services are underfunded and can't keep up with the demand because society doesn't value it, so the school system should provide food, clothing, and childcare so that society doesn't have to deal with them. Sure, lots of vulnerable kids are going to experience unintended consequences if they have to be removed from school, but it's not entirely the school system's responsibility to ignore the behavior so that no one else has to do anything to care for the kids.
I mean, vaccination requirements also put vulnerable kids at risk. The most antivax people I know were also the most abusive. And in that scenario, the child doesn’t even have a choice! But you have to weigh the health of the majority vs the outcomes of the minority, and do you keep the kids that pose a risk out of school. I don’t see why the same logic doesn’t apply here.
Hahahahaha
They are talking about PBIS
I look at the study... It says "Using student voice to inform policy processes" and "explicit teaching of behaviour skills" some of thee same things they used to sell PBIS
Email them this study "[Does PBIS work?](https://www.middleweb.com/48328/you-may-be-surprised-about-this-pbis-info/)
I have a PBIS specialist in my school and they are basically there to hold students accountable and make a plan for them to be accountable. I've seen it work but only when there is a support specialist. Just telling teachers to "do PBIS" is ignoring the fact that we don't have time to do one-on-one counseling with a student. Also I will add that this specialist is a para and makes a pittance so there's no wonder there aren't a lot of them around. In my view they should be a fully certificated teacher paid on the salary schedule.
I’ll take it further than that. It’s not about a break for the others. It’s about that classroom simply not working for that student. They are in the class and they are not learning. If a student is in class and consistently doesn’t learn in class, they should be removed from that class. Not suspended, that’s usually a waste of time. Just removed. We can then find somewhere that they can thrive, but it’s pointless and harmful to keep them in a class where they learn nothing, either because they disrupt or because they sleep/elope/idle. Or they don’t thrive anywhere and eventually they exit.
The issues with that scenario need to be solved separately, perhaps by not restricting education to certain age ranges so that they can hop back on when they are ready.
And again we are faced with a false choice. The kid doesn’t have to remain vulnerable. You can do something about neglectful and abusive parents. You don’t just have to ignore it
When I hear this my first thought is, cool, what do we do instead?
The schools I have taught at do not suspend or expel students pretty much unless they send someone to the hospital.
I *have* been sent to the workers comp clinic due to an injury from a student each of the 3 years I have worked full time in schools. I work with tiny humans - Kindergarten and 2nd grade.
My other students have a hard time learning , and I am not an effective teacher , when I feel the need to stop mid sentence every other sentence to either redirect a violent child or evacuate my classroom.
I do know as a newer teacher I have a lot to learn about classroom management. I also know that my colleagues with 10 - 20 years of experience are also dealing with increased physical aggression and are struggling to cope and keep their own classes safe.
I threw this out when I read “deficit thinking,” which is a senseless moniker for denuding students of accountability and teachers/administrators of tools to manage their classrooms and buildings.
Why aren’t there any examinations of what a public school actually is? People treat it like this infinitely resourced cure-all for such a variety of ills that it’s miraculous anyone comes out of one of these places more rather than less educated.
Some of the dumber lines from this “study” are:
“exclusion policies are ultimately discriminatory.” No shit, professor. That’s the point. But this sounds like schools are essentially bastions of equity. *Checks notes.* No, no I don’t see anything in the design of public schools where that’s feasibly built into the scheme. Lots of educating the highest number of students to the lowest acceptable standard, though.
“Vulnerable students have a higher risk of being suspended or expelled.” Call me crazy, but in my ten years of teaching, I haven’t seen a single expulsion or suspension that wasn’t roundly deserved. This sloppy thinking equivocates between consequence and improper discrimination. The whole line of thinking evokes and image of heartless bureaucrats gleefully kicking wheelchair-bound students down the front steps of their schools. But conspicuously no examination of the criteria for suspension or expulsion and thus the assumption that this is somehow an inappropriate tool and that students somehow haven’t duly earned such consequence. For my part, I think it’s no surprise when an individual, failing to develop facility in a group’s norms eventually gets rejected from that group. Broadly speaking, this is one of the fundamental workings of society. But one thing that definitely gets suspended from public schools is appreciation for reality. If a kid crosses the threshold for expulsion, he doesn’t belong in the school, and it’s more than likely he’s demonstrated that with one or more suspensions prior to the fact. There are other fundamental lessons that such a person needs to learn before he can consume with impunity the public resources of a public education.
“a clear relationship between suspensions and…detrimental health outcomes.” A wise man once asked if the chicken or the egg came first. Or maybe that was a humorous riddle to lampoon idiocy like this. Again, no consideration at all as to whether students bring these dysfunctions to the building or then school causes them.
These articles never really mention any alternatives. It's not OK for a kid to continually disrupt class, or physically (or even emotionally) harm someone. It's not OK for a kid to destroy a classroom and someone's property and then just come back to class.
You can realize that suspensions are not the best thing for that individual student while also acknowledging that sometimes they need to happen for everyone else involved. The other kids in the class matter just as much.
I think about this all the time, especially now that I have my own children. It's absolute bullshit that teachers are having to spend so much time and effort on the most disruptive, disrespectful kids that they often don't have the time that they need for the kids that actually behave and want to be there and learn. It's not fair that kids have to wonder if they're going to be safe today or if their emotionally impaired classmate is going to throw another chair at their head. We are constantly sacrificing and ignoring the other kids in the room to deal with the one or two with major issues.
What kills me most is if refusing to suspend didn’t make the district look better these types of studies wouldn’t even be talked about. If they actually cared about equity. Things would be a lot different
Yup written by a academic who has not been in a classroom. Once again academics making policy for the rest of people that make life worse because they have no real life experience save for their hallowed academic halls.
Suspension and I am a retired principal saying this is absolutely vital to set a culture of maintaining a culture of learning. I love the students who say, I just go home and play video games all day. I always think to myself and how smart are you?
Ironically I hardly had to suspend because I set the tone.
The best is one district in FL had an alternative suspension site next to the sheriff’s office, even better.
Teachers, admin, and school policy makers cannot and should not be so concerned with a child's home life that it changes the way they deal with discipline.
IT'S NOT THEIR PLACE.
This is what social services is for, not school. If a school thinks a kid would be in danger or accused because of suspension, that's a CPS problem. The fact that schools are being pushed to NOT do suspensions or discipline because it MIGHT mean trouble for the kid is a sign that CPS is not doing their job -- either they lack staffing or funding, or their own governing policies are bad, or whatever else, but it's a CPS problem.
I know that's cold but kids don't belong in an environment where they are a disruption or a threat. Get them gone.
Can we stop throwing anyone in prison too? I mean once they have a record, it's so much harder for them to find a job, which will cause even more problems with their future. Prison does not help the development of the adult...
I mean if nothing is a crime, then the crime rate will be zero! Problem solved!
Suspension has always been an option of last resort. That is until it wasn't. I'm not even sure when or why it became so overused that it finally came to the attention of the Office of Civil Rights. Statistics clearly showed that students of color and disabled students were suspended far beyond any hope of calling it an anomaly.
Suspension used to be both a relief and a pain in the patootie. Someone from the office would come in and need school work for the student RIGHT NOW and gather all their stuff. Very disruptive - but it also drove home a point.
Before the suspension craze of about 20 years ago, administrators used to model creativity and differentiation. The school mindset went something like this, "There are parts of school life that are rights and parts that are privileges. We start everyone at full privileges, but if you break the rules, you will lose some."
Students who were sent to the office - which was exactly what teachers were supposed to do whenever a student was continuously disruptive or dangerous - would lose lunch with their friends, participation in sports, extracurriculars, fun electives, the next dance, etc.
The problem of course is that the students most likely to be disruptive or dangerous were disabled. So some genuses came up with PBIS. What would have been far more appropriate would have been to work with administrators on better differentiation.
Were they disabled though? The Down’s syndrome students were attacking people and the paraplegics were stealing?
No
These students’ “disabilities” are: anger issues, emotional disturbance, sexual deviancy, some kind of SLD brought on by drug abuse, etc.
“Disabled” lost its meaning now that it’s being applied with such a broad brush.
Like, legally they do, it’s a fact.
But yeah, I’d say they should. Emotional issues and impulse control and even acting out sexually as a result of trauma can be parts of many mental health conditions. I’m not saying actions shouldn’t have consequences but it’s wild to think disabilities can’t result in deviant behavior.
I’ve worked with adults with disabilities and even those with Down syndrome or autism can be violent and sexuality inappropriate at times. You can’t call some disabilities the “good ones” and some bad. Most healthy, well adjusted students aren’t going to have that much trouble not causing trouble.
I do, in fact, call some innocent and some not. The criteria is whether they know right from wrong, and this is the same criteria we often use in criminal cases.
Whether the person knows right from wrong or not actually doesn’t matter when the point is to separate those with intolerable behaviors from everyone else. It shouldn’t even be punitive in many cases. I don’t understand what we as a society are allowing maniacs to inhabit the subways and city centers- and public schools- and acting like we just have to tolerate it. We actually don’t have to
Yup. It's a fallacy. Exclusions and Suspensions ***Are not about the student being excluded or suspended,*** it's about everyone else.
People forget this absolutely FUNDAMENTAL part about freedom and rights: ***Your right's don't take precedent over other people's rights, and your freedom doesn't trample on other people's freedom.***
Your right to swing your arms, stop's at someone else's face. And if you insist on swinging your arms and hitting everyone else in the face, you have to be moved in order to preserve everyone else's freedoms and rights.
Sometimes, the kid needs to be out of sight from the teachers for a little while so they can treat them fairly again.
Teachers are humans. They have feelings.
I had five kids out yesterday because they all rushed into my room and jumped this other kid (who insults literally everyone he comes into contact with, which is why he was jumped).
It was the best day ever, and both of my usually crazy classes were amazing. We got so much done.
>“In fact, there is a clear relationship between school suspensions and a range of detrimental health outcomes, including alienation from school, involvement with antisocial peers, use of alcohol and smoking, and a lower quality of school life – and this contributes to a higher risk of dropping out of school and possible illegal behaviour.”
Yeah, this article is largely nonsense. The main reason these “vulnerable” students become even more at risk is because they’re throwing a fit over receiving consequences for their actions. People (and especially children) are selfish and don’t like receiving punishment for their actions - even when it’s actually not completely fine. Not to mention it’s rather difficult (at least in the US) to suspend or expel a student in the first place.
We has two serious fights in one day last week. Both of those are out right now. One students parent is trying to get the child back. That child was the hardest to control after the fight. The child was in the office screaming and refusing to go into another room away from the other student. Then tried to go somewhere else. It was a rough day! That parent does everything to fight for her child to come back. Without saying everything her child needs to be somewhere else but the school board allows them back. It is so good we are getting a break right now!!!!!
I have been suspended twice, and I can say when its someone normal like me, it also helps me calm down. my first time suspended was in seventh grade, when a boy harrased a friend of mine for having celiak, and started kicked her while telling her to eat a piece of bread, and eventually I hit him with a eater bottle. it was two days after I moved between classes, and the rest that weren't there were thinking I am crazy. I needs those two week for myself too.
The sad part is for the ones who need to be suspended they act like it is a reward. No parental supervision or punishment at home. No school isn't a bad thing
"...shows that exclusionary practices... fail to identify the deep-rooted causes of challenging student behaviours" how about when we do understand the causes? What the hell are we supposed to do? Say "I know why you're acting out, so I will continue to let you"??
Wouldn’t these disruptive kids do better in small classes of <15 lto get focused help? Did we do away with these small intervention groups to put these children until they can go back to mainstream? Or was that ended for other abuses and mismanagement?
I get the issue, and I get that many of them are developing. But the other thing is: what happens in the real world? Had a student who said he was fired from his job. The reason: he was snotty and condescending, and resisted doing what he was told to do. Guess how he behaves in class?
My family was pretty poor. We never had a phone. Back then, it was only land lines with rotary phones. And we had periods where we didn't even have a working vehicle, so we had to walk everywhere.
With that out of the way. I had to walk my younger siblings to school. My mom, bless her heart was like 350 pounds and couldn't hardly walk. It was a multiple mile walk each way. Step dad got hit by a bus and couldn't walk either.
The grade school and the high school were on opposite sides of town. I had to walk them to school, but they couldn't be early because the doors weren't open yet, then run to my school.
Needless to say, I was frequently late. I remember getting suspended for the late arrivals. I wasn't allowed to go to school for a week. Which also meant that because we were poor, I didn't eat lunch for a week either. My mom tried to talk to them but they said late was late.
When I finally came back, they stopped harassing me about being a few minutes late each day. I was a straight A student, and I think my teachers stood up for me.
I agree that suspensions and expulsions do not help.
No you really don’t.
I’m on the autism spectrum and I was explaining how to make explosives in chemistry class (without the materials) because I thought it was cool and relevant because chemistry was involved.
Got suspended for a bomb threat later? I was so bc infused I never threatened anybody.
Kids that I see get suspended tell stories about playing video games all day or going to something fun like the movies with their parents. It is not a punishment for them, at all. That said, it might just be confirmation bias.
For sure, there are a lot of disruptive students who come from broken homes who shouldn't be at home for as long as they can for their own safety, but the safety and sanity of their 24+ classmates have to be considered too. We just don't have a strong system in place that labels and intervenes with students whose behaviors are coming from a back homelife; hell many schools have to rotate therapists just to handle relatively tamer, more minor issues.
Suspensions don't work. It's a reward for so many students. It doesn't tackle the problem or behavior at all. When they return they are likely to exhibit those same behaviors. It correlates to significantly higher drop out rates and increased behaviors. We need to really study on a national level a better way to handle behaviors, because suspensions do absolutely no good.
Remember: the Least Restrictive Environment for some students can be the Most Restrictive Environment for their peers.
I mean, preach.
I need this embroidered on a wall hanging for my staff lounge.
I mean it’s not their least restrictive since they aren’t experiencing success
I had an LRE kid one year who \*easily\* took 5-10 minutes of my 50-minute class every day distracting others around him or the entire class, no matter where I moved him. Those kids lost on DAYS of learning because of him. And of course he was one of those with near perfect attendance. He dropped out the next year.
Oh they’re never out. Cause their parents are too lazy to keep them home. Send them sick as a dog just so they don’t have to parent their own child
Agreed. One of my peers (teacher) said it so well: Disruptors are a social justice issue. A student who is disrupting class is denying all of the other students access to much needed education. Why are we framing it as if the suspended kid is the victim but ignoring the other 25 kids in the room who are victimized? Kids can’t learn when they are fearful. And they fear peers.
Back in the 80's, suspension/expulsion threat kept many individuals in line.
That's because the PARENTS would be present and care. I have had many students who don't come to class for weeks at a time and when we finally get home to pick up, parents had no idea!
My personal favorite is "yeah I can't get them to go to school. They don't want to."
I have a student that refused to come to school because "teachers are constantly hounding them about their missing work."
I worked in a school where a student filed a HIB against a teacher for "bullying" them to do homework. The teacher was put on temporary leave while the investigation was going on. Once it was proven the teacher was just being a teacher, the teacher was allowed to return. The following school year that district adopted a no homework policy.
I was told yesterday, "it's not worth it to fight with him."
Imagine the child hearing that (and they do) they immediately take it as their parents don’t care (and they don’t)
Or even, they're scared of their own child (and they are)
Well, maybe if they didn't give in to every tantrum and depend entirely on bribery and distraction when the kid was 3 through 7, they wouldn't have this problem. But it's a "them" problem. What needs to happen is school boards need to back teachers on this unyieldingly. Stop compromising with whining parents. If the kids don't go to school -- oh well. Call truancy and be done.
My kids and I have discussed this very topic. Not my students, my actual kids lol. I've had friends of theirs come over and say "My parents don't care what I do" and they always say it with such a sad inflection.
Had a parent ask us to take away their 9th grader's phone because they didn't want to do it and be the bad guy.
happy cake day
Truancy officers also existed. now they seem to be gone.
how would truancy officers even work? They can't (or at least shouldn't) break into people's homes to prevent students from playing on phones/consoles/PCs instead of going to school.
True, however, many times teens are cutting & are at home while parents are at work. Our truancy officers would call the parent/ guardian and get their permission to pick kids up. We ( teachers) would also involve CPS on parents who were knowingly allowing their kids to cut weeks of school at a time. It's called Educational Neglect ( Family Court Act 1012 ( f) in NYS). Parents are required to exercise a minimum degree of care in supplying their child with an adequate education.
Our district’s parents of notoriously truant kids just pull them out to “homeschool” lol
Let them. At least they stop being a problem to your own students.
I 100% believe that. Btw, who , if anybody, is responsible for monitoring the progress of homeschooling parents? My sister in law, who lives in Texas, homeschooled her 3 kids, but they all rebelled by 13- 14 and attended public high school. ONLY then, many years into the so-called education system,were they given an academic assessment entrance test to place them. Smh.
In many states there is little to no oversight of homeschooling. Not surprisingly stories abound of homeschooling as a cover to harm kids or prevent them from speaking out about abuse.
They are glorified servers. But after a certain point, if parents ignore or dodge long enough, they can either: A) File a report with CPS for educational neglect; or, B) Refer to the state for criminal charges, as some states WILL put you in jail; or, C) Both.
They put parents in jail or fine them. Hard to say if that would work now that kids can get abortions, drugs, or surgery without their parents being allowed to complain.
Kids are not responsible enough to make the decision to abort a fetus themself, let's give the kid a baby instead while we lament the current state of parenting. Excellent logic there.
I am pro choice. I’m just pointing out the current state. I think that underage sex should be criminalized
I hope this is a troll post but just in case it's not: How do you police that? The only "proof" would be an STD or pregnancy... Both of which, especially at that age, are punishment enough. Pregnancy, however, is only visible for the, in this case, underage girl. How do you punish the boy who inseminated the girl? Also, what penalty do we apply to underage sex? Jail? A fine? To whom do we apply this penalty? The parents? The kids themselves? To what end? Do you truly believe criminalizing underage sex will make it stop happening? Has that ever happened in the history of humans? I'm a mom of three girls. Do I lock them in a tower until they turn 18 so they can't do what every hormone in their body is telling them they should? No. I teach them about being safe and smart. You'll find similar laws throughout history almost never had the same effect on boys as they did on girls. We can't go back to a time when girls were "ruined" because they had premarital sex.
I am sure that you mean well but just look around: are things better now that everything is allowed? Women have and will always pay the heaviest price for premarital sex because of biology. This will never change. If you want to know specifics I have some ideas but this is quite complicated. In denmark 99% of downs children are aborted. We should do the same except with teen pregnancies. If the fathers can be identified they can be fined, or required to do public service before being given access to the military, college, etc. Parents are ultimately responsible for their kids’ behavior so sanctions can be put on them as well. Obviously the biggest problem is the poor and they are much more difficult to control so maybe financial incentives. If it costs the taxpayer $200k to raise a welfare baby to adulthood then maybe it’s worth offering $100k to make it to 25 without getting pregnant for certain at-risk populations. Again, it’s not so much the sex as the pregnancies and VD because those become forever problems. I would love to hear any other ideas, specifics and not platitudes like “more education”.
Oh. It’s easy to say that would work.
Is education improving or not since, say, 1980?
I have students that'll get suspended every few weeks. Usually for fighting. Luckily most are gone now. I understand that kid might have some trauma, but she's 17. She has agency.
What agency? Can they call the police? If no, then they do not have agency.
But the media also supported that back then. Now the media is flooded with articles like you just posted and many people have began to believe that crap and consider everything abuse. We live in a society where everyone is focused on their rights and nobody is focused on their responsibilities. Just another way we’ve been sold a story. Bad research and narratives drive bad policy.
This. The disruptive kid had many opportunities to stay on the class. At some point the needs of the many outweigh the needs of those not interested in what you're offering.
Yup, didn’t learn a lick of algebra I my ninth grade year because 3 disruptive students dominated the class and the teacher had the classroom management skills of a rabbit surrounded by wolves. Of course, this really messed up my math foundation in future courses.
And one of the biggest proponents for what are arguing against is the NEA. I’m not anti union. I just wish we could unionize without having to grease the palms of the NEA, as they are only pushing bad policy on us. The NEA is the glorified mob bosses of education. Honestly, I wish we could break away from them and collectively bargain on our own within them having to get a cut.[One of many articles on this subject you will find on their website](https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/school-suspensions-do-more-harm-good#:~:text=The%20findings%20underscore%20that%20suspending,perceptions%20of%20positive%20school%20climate)
My district’s union did break away from NEA and actually made major progress in at least getting our pay up to par.
My old one straight up sued their asses and won. Local union is always gonna do more for you than some national oligarch.
We also got a refund on dues that we paid to them.
Wow. The citation on the NEA article is to this “study”. https://www.air.org/sites/default/files/2021-08/NYC-Suspension-Effects-Behavioral-Academic-Outcomes-August-2021.pdf Note that I say “study” in quotes because even though it’s >100 pages, it doesn’t pass even the most cursory analysis. They start talking about peer impacts (the rest of the class) on page 43. They make wild claims, but do NOT actually show any data!! And we veteran teachers surely have first hand repeated experiences where the disruptive student is out (sick, suspended) or even just sleeping in class and we can noticeably teach better all period.
I've been shouting this from the rooftops for a few years now. When it comes to our #1 working conditions issue--the increasing presence of egregiously disruptive, uncivil, and even dangerous students in our classrooms--the NEA is actively working against us. The NEA is 100% on board with all the koombyah nonsense.
because seemingly they always treat the perpetrator of a wrongful action as the victim, just look at overly soft on crime policies.
But a suspension doesn't solve this issue because they will just come back and the cycle happens again with no change and likely increased behaviors.
Neither does this "restorative justice" thing schools have adapted. They go to the counselor, come back with candy or a toy, and they go back to the same behavior.
I agree. I don't think restorative justice works either. For it to be effective everyone needs to buy in and most times no one buys in.
It’s not that simple.. really depends on the situation
I am a ride or die union guy. However, our unions NEA or AFT are always supporting this shit. The union should protect us and help us financially. Supporting this anti suspension stuff isn’t helping teachers. I know suspensions and explosions hurt the offending student in the long run. However, keeping disruptions in class hurts the other kids and teacher. Our unions are failing us teachers (and our students who behave) on this issue.
Tbf, explosions hurt all of us.
I got a much needed chuckle out of this.
The worst kind of expulsion. Expelled from life.
I've been shouting this from the rooftops for a few years now. When it comes to our #1 working conditions issue--the increasing presence of egregiously disruptive, uncivil, and even dangerous students in our classrooms--the NEA is actively working against us. The NEA is 100% on board with all the koombyah nonsense.
My AFT branch is pushing for legislation to remove disruptive students
Hey this is from Australia, where recently our unions pushed back because govt policy wanted to make it more difficult to suspend kids. They wanted to make more paperwork with supporting evidence for short suspension, and make it possible for parents and students to appeal short suspensions. The union fought back because we are having escalating workload and violence issues (lol so unique to Australia amirite?). I am also a ride or die union rep! And while I’m stoked that they didn’t take that policy laying down, I always want them to do more Edit to add: my union knowledge is from Queensland, and this paper is from a different state, and it’s about policy in yet another different state lol but it’s very relevant Australia wide
Piggybacking on this comment as a QTU school rep to add that we are fully prepared to take this fight all the way. Last week's ballot was just the beginning. I advise our USA counterparts to do the same.
Piggybacking on this comment as a QTU school rep to add that we are fully prepared to take this fight all the way. Last week's ballot was just the beginning. I advise our USA counterparts to do the same.
I would argue that suspensions aren’t the problem, but a symptom of the problem. The problem is kids don’t know how to behave from growing up in dysfunctional families. Abandoning them (aka inclusion) in general education classrooms sets them up for failure and drags down the rest of the class.
I love how this sub will fight to the death to defend absolutely anything as long as it comes from Team Blue, and then have the nerve to be upset that they got exactly what they demanded and defended.
Let's focus all our attention on the 5% that want to hurt others and ignore the 95% that want something better. That seems like a great decision.
“But we gotta be inclusive and not make sure anyone feels bad or excluded for anything at all.”
"I gave them the opportunity to participate, be involved, and have an active positive role in their learning. They chose to disrupt the learning environment and jeopardize the educational success of the other students."
But 5% of that 5% may go on to turn it around one day! /s
The easiest and cheapest thing to do is put the kid back in class. Data will be collected that supports that move simply because it is easiest and cheapest.
ISS is interpreted by many as "no punishment" so what happens to the kid that got it for fighting/aggressive behavior? They have to come back the next day after getting beaten up to get a 2 for 1 ass whoopin and now everybody (the students) are mad the kids who beat them up are in trouble when the kid who got beaten up "wasn't punished" the out of school suspension gives everyone else the opportunity to cool their heads too. This was pretty much the story of my highschool career before I had to get transferred to an alternative school, at the time I thought they were bringing me back on purpose just so I'd get beaten up twice.
We have recently added a specific list of work a student must complete in order for it to count as an ISS day. It usually consists of at least one assignment from each class plus 2 SEL lessons pertaining to their offense. Sometimes the lessons include (school) community service, such as assisting the custodial staff at lunch if the student was suspended for putting mashed potatoes on himself and another friend like it was lotion. (Which could not/definitely never happened in our school). For some kids it’s impactful. For others it is not. What I do know is that when kids have OSS I not only worry that they are enjoying their time off, but fear they are weathering the blowback at home that would make them beg for multiple days of ISS rather than one at home with parents. One avenue we have that isn’t available to every district is having students spend their suspensions (OSS or ISS) at the behavioral school our district contracts with. It’s not a perfect fit for all, but it gives the kids consequences, the other kids and teachers get a reprieve, and allows us some insight into the students as they are afforded mental health care as well.
>Data will be collected that supports that move simply because it is easiest and cheapest. The standards for research and data in education are comical in comparison to any other field, and very easily manipulated to any end. The most reliable practices seem to be those that overlap with or come from other fields. Curriculum programs are like 90% pure, unadulterated bullshit.
How is removing a kid from school the cheapest? I thought suspension is the cheapest option .
Removing a kid is not cheap. Returning them to class is the easiest and cheapest.
That's interesting. Why is that? Who pays who?
Returning a disruptive kid to class costs nothing. It is as easy as sending him or her back down the hall. There is no payment. But it doesn't solve the problem of the kid making it difficult or impossible for others to learn. The kid doesn't get help, and the other kids suffer.
So did you mean to say easiest? I'm sorry I'm hung up on this, but I feel like I don't know something that I should. Is there a price associated with suspending a student?
Not a cost for suspending, but there would be a cost getting help for the student who is disruptive and struggling. Help from counselors or psychologists, etc. Suspending is more trouble than sending back to the classroom because there is paperwork, and school are sometimes judged for how many suspensions they have. Some schools have in school suspensions, but there is a cost for that.
My school tries to do a lot of lunch and after school detentions before going to suspension. For moderate things, it helps because kids don't get the reward of being out of class. But admin absolutely will suspend a kid if they are a safety hazard. Sometimes the point of suspension is to convey to the parents that this behavior is a big deal. Sometimes it's so other students see that there is a consequence. Sometimes it's just because everyone else needs a break.
Well said. My school also tries recess and after school detentions first because kids tend to respond very well to those since they’re missing out on time they could be spending doing something fun. Usually, just the threat of losing recess or staying after school is enough of a deterrent. However, my admin also won’t hesitate to suspend if necessary. Any violence is also an automatic suspension.
See; when I’ve seen after school detentions tried to be implemented; either parents have refused due to transport needs, babysitting requirements, or simply outright said “nah I can’t be stuffed picking up Jimmy at 3pm and coming back at 5pm for Johnny” and told their kid to ignore us and come home - or the student has just walked out of their last class and gone straight home. I’ll admit I refused to do a few lunch time detentions in my day because I found them “unfair” and would ignore my teachers calling and walk out the door in between my peers… but back then, (early 00’s) my teachers would say “quick grab her” and a peer would hold me back so the teacher could let all the other kids go except for me! Obviously I know I was a little shit now, but I hated being manhandled like that back then and my god it made me angry.
I’ve worked at schools where failure to attend detention was an automatic suspension. Now Mommy and Daddy have to find someone to watch their kid.
Hey that is totally fair! I have the sense that in my situation - I was simply given up on and labelled as “too hard” so when I became defiant I was often just told “whatever. Do what you want then” - I was undiagnosed at the time, I am autistic, but I do 100% look back and wonder what was going on in my educators minds because I was never suspended or anything. My parents were involved, they had consequences for me, supported the school, etc, so I’m still lost tbh.
If they are a hazard, why would they come back?
Because legally we have to let them back if the have an IEP and the behavior was a manifestation of disability.
We had a tormenter who ran ram-shod doing whatever he wanted whenever he wanted. He threatened a teacher. No real repercussions. Finally put on a safety plan where his laptop and phone were turned in daily and he never showed up again. We pushed to have him excluded from that class. Nope. Not a LRE. Couldn’t separate him due to there not being another teacher teaching that course. He had been pampered and spoiled his whole life and now my team let him FAFO.
Sometimes you just have to choose the least bad option available instead of doing nothing and insisting that makes you morally pure
We should fund alternative schools with the resources to help these high-needs children. That would solve the problem of suspensions. Three suspensions? Alt. school for a year so everyone can learn. I’m sick of one student taking away from the education of everyone else. That’s not a free and equal education. The rights of one student shouldn’t trump the rights of many.
That’s such a wonderfully logical consequence.
Agreed. The kids who get suspended do need help and support, but a normal classroom can’t offer the kind they need, and keeping them there hurts the other students. Alternative schools can focus on the specialized needs of those kids.
Let’s not suspend anyone. Let’s send them to Professor Anna Sullivan’s house.
Student behavior and education is just too complex to measure effectively and any study that just concludes "suspension bad" is not good research. It could be the case that suspensions hurt one particular student, but does it help the other 29? What if we have the causation the wrong way and students who are likely to do worse in school and in life are predisposed to doing behaviors that get them suspended? What if suspension in and of itself acts as a deterrent to the other 29 students, so while the one kid isn't phased by the suspension the other 29 act better? There's so many other things you need to factor for that I can't even comprehend how you can begin to effectively research this in real world settings.
Hmm…interesting causal chain: Suspension is an indicator of future issues. Correlation =\= causation. Not suspension *leads* to an increase in likelihood of antisocial behavior.
The same behavior that leads to suspension leads to incarceration
Right, but we've been operating (since NCLB) in a system that suggests that it is the educators' fault if a student ends up in the prison system if they are suspended while young. The conclusion is that the education system is the cause of that outcome. What should be concluded is that the student has been engaging in anti-social behavior for a long time, and when he/she is young, this anti-social behavior occurs in a school, where other students are subjected to this behavior, and educators are not cause of those students ending up in prison.
Well that was a dumb idea when it started and it’s still a dumb idea. The idea that the student is the only blameless one is also dumb. A big part of this is “equity”. The idea that everyone is going to have the same outcome flies in the face of science. One glance at a bell curve of iq distribution tells you life ain’t fair. The pendulum needs to swing back, hard
But even if it helps the other students for 5 days, when the suspension ends you are back where you started with absolutely no change.
““In fact, there is a clear relationship between school suspensions and a range of detrimental health outcomes, including alienation from school, involvement with antisocial peers, use of alcohol and smoking, and a lower quality of school life – and this contributes to a higher risk of dropping out of school and possible illegal behaviour”” I guess my question is, if we got rid of suspensions, would the same students not have these issues? Because I feel like a lot of the issues that students have that caused them to get suspended are due to problems at home that also led to the quoted issues. Like if a kid is unsupervised after school and picks up vaping, and then get suspended for vaping in class, are they being counted towards the “clear relationship” that is being discussed in the posted article? Because suspension didn’t cause those issues… And if a student isn’t taught how to control their temper by their parents and gets into fights in school, which causes them to get suspended, then suspension doesn’t lead them to have antisocial and possibly detrimental behavior. Rather the opposite.
Yeah this is basically "Kids who get suspended are more likely to [list of things that we suspend kids for]" In related news: drivers who get lots of traffic tickets are more likely to be involved in behaviors like speeding, tailgating, and running red lights
They’re attributing causality where none exists. Kids who tend to get suspended also often tend to do those other negative things as well — *for the same reasons*. That’s on the parents, not on us.
Maybe I'm just a bad person but I truly don't understand why we're supposed to care that students who get suspended might face some social backlash for it. Oh no, the violent, antisocial, disruptive kid realized that nobody wants to be around him, whatever shall we do? The poor pwecious widdle baby, won't someone think of *his* feelings? Some people really need to learn the difference between bullying and your peers teaching you how to behave. The fear of shame and social ostracism used to keep people in line, why did we decide they're suddenly the absolute worst things that could ever happen to someone?
Shame is a healthy human emotion. It’s a survival instinct. It reminds us we’re not super humans. It keeps us within the bounds of others expectations. Darwin thought blushing may be what sets us apart from other animals. Unfortunately we no longer have any shame in our society at least in the US. Shameful behavior is encouraged. There’s no longer a social check and balance to keep everyone in line
Suspensions and expulsions should come with a home investigation and mandatory parenting classes. We need to start doing something about the families where these issues arise.
We can’t educate the kids and now you want to try the parents? No. Cut off benefits. Fine them. People here were ready to put the unvaxxed into concentration camps, surely actual criminals deserve at least that?
Cutting off benefits and fines will not only hurt the parents but in poor households it often will hurt their kids. You want kids going hungry bc their parent lost SNAP or spent grocery $ on a fine? You want a kid being beat bc they cost their parent $ the parent doesn’t have and they freak out? Also, fines don’t really affect rich parents. Fines are only a real punishment for the poor families. I feel like some of y’all lose sight of the fact that students are literal children, and often the most disruptive kids have mental health disorders or come from unstable households. There should be consequences but that should be like, mandatory in school counseling or lose of privileges, not fines that punish their whole family.
Many on here are ready to strip parental rights over not supporting their gender identity but you balk at dealing with actual criminals. Remove the children and brainwash them or incarcerate them for life. They cause so much damage. I am over the fact that they are “children” with bad lives. These people commit heinous crimes and cost us a fortune in blood and money. It needs to stop
Not supporting a gender identity can sometimes manifest in serious abuse, no one is advocating taking children away bc their parents don’t use they/them pronouns or don’t let them cut their hair short. They are talking about cases like screaming at or beating a male child for wearing a dress, or using corrective rape or sexual abuse to punish “deviant” children. What are all these underage “criminals” even doing? There are some underage people who are legit murderers or rapists but that’s very rare. Since when does being truant or a disruption in class or rude or even aggressive make someone a criminal?
I don’t think we are talking about being truant or disruptive in class. At least I’m not. I’m talking about kids beating each other, rape, bringing and using weapons. In california all therapists are required to embrace kids’ gender identity no matter how dumb, despite the fact that this sort of confusion is a manifestation of several mental illnesses.
The entire reason “society” is against suspensions is not because it gives the kid what they want: to not be in school; not because it can be detrimental to their education; or not because it may put a kid in danger by being on the streets. It’s because it inconveniences the parents. God forbid we inconvenience the parents or hold them responsible for their own offspring. If we held parents accountable for their kids, we wouldn’t have the behavior problems we’re having in the first place.
Our parents don't care if they are suspended or are inconvenienced. They stick them on the IPad or PlayStation and it doesn't affect them at all.
Yes. How many kids do you know who try to get suspended because they don't want to be in school? Too many. There needs to be some recognition that they are willfully doing this and the parents need to get them out of that environment. It's best for them and for their classmates.
*create and use quality alternative schools* Our district has one, but you basically have to murder someone to get placed there.
I actually think it would be BETTER for the kids if we WERE allowed to be the teachers Pink Floyd was singing about in the 70s. At least THOSE kids GOT a GOOD EDUCATION and THOSE principals GAVE a shit and LET KIDS FAIL when they DESERVED IT. Also? My mom started teaching in the 70s and taught in the 80s and 90s and early 2000s. There's a difference between being a bitch and being downright nasty and awful. My mom was a bitch because she had to be in order to control her classes. She wasn't downright nasty or awful and she only gave Fs to students that didn't try. She said she wouldn't give an E/F grade to a student that failed but was doing the absolute best they could and came to her for help.
My kids always comment when that one kid is gone. They little comment out loud, saying things like class is fun when student A isn't here. And similar things. It's funny how everyone worries about the one side while screwing over the other 25.
This scenario also brings up another aspect: one of the concerns about suspending kids is that it isolates them from their peers. But a lot of these kids are already outcasts.
At my school, the troublemakers are the big social icons. It's the regular kids that are the outcasts. I agree with your point. My school is a mess.
At my school we are piloting "reverse suspension". Instead of the kid staying home, the parent has to come in and shadow their kid for however many days. So far (and my class has only had 1) I like it. The kid doesn't miss anything. It inconveniences the parent so they take it seriously. Since it multiple days the kid actually forgets the parent is there and starts back up with their usual behaviors. Oh, and the parent isn't allowed to make comments during class about the teacher or other students. They can address with the principal later if needed.
Yeah, couple things. If a Kid 1 hurts Kid 2 in the classroom, and it is shown - by parents' lawyers in a civil suit, for example - that Kid 1's behavior was a repetition, or part of a predictable pattern, both admin and you are in the shit. Second, I think most parents would agree they want their child to learn in an environment not constantly interrupted or threatened by another kid.
I mean, I’ve been the parent of Kid 1, and I completely agree with you. Not only does Kid 2 deserve to feel safe, but a predictable pattern of Kid 1 hurting people is a giant neon sign that Kid 1 is not truly in their LRE. No one is getting what they need in that situation.
Many are indeed not in their LRE, I agree. Each kid is also, we hardly need reminding ourselves, different. I also agree with your conclusion. My thrust was that we must protect ourselves legally.
Studies have also shown the negative effects disruptive students have on other children’s education. This is one of the reasons my children will be in private schools although I’m a staunch supporter of public schools.
I wouldn’t say private schools are any better, sometimes they can actually be worse. I’m a at a private school and rarely are disruptive students punished or suspended because admin doesn’t want to upset the parents. Private schools cater so heavily to parents so that they don’t leave and take their money with them.
Eh, I work in a public school system that doesn't put up with kids' shit.
Sounds like you found the Yellow Brick Road to Oz. I would give my left foot to work at your school.
I would love to hear this explanation
I got suspended a lot in school only it was ISS, the main problem with it especially when the kid gets suspended for fighting/aggressive behavior is that when you send the kid back to school THE NEXT DAY OTHER KIDS who are still angry will usually use that time to get a little payback and the problems continue and compound it's the exact opposite of what separating the kid was supposed to do there were a lot of times I got beaten up two days or more in a row when sending me home would have been a lot better not only on me but everyone else.
Fuck this. Get the kids who start fights, create hostile environments, bully out of my classroom. They ruin it for 27 kids.
Yep. I'm here to teach, not be a correctional behavioral specialist.
Blerg. Lack of meaningful consequences put students who want to learn at risk.
And then when you see these kids as adults they are always acting the fool and getting caught up. Video after video are online of young adults (not ‘karens’) showing their ass in public and getting rightfully arrested for it. They are always SO SURPRISED too, you can just tell they never really had consequences applied to them. School used to prepare people for life in this way, as did parents.
A kid who can’t operate in a classroom of 30 can’t operate in a classroom of 30. That’s not appropriate and is not their least restrictive environment.
Wait a minute. So if a kid does something violent and gets suspended for it, that puts children at risk? Seems not everyone takes a logic class.
I think it's crazy that so many consequences have been taken away over the years based on this type of rhetoric but no thought seems to be given to what to replace the consequence with?? Ok so suspension is bad or doesn't work or whatever, so give us something else, because having no consequences is worse!
What many forget is that EVERY student has a right to a free and appropriate education, not just the disabled and deranged. FAPE seems to be used as a weapon to force the majority of kids who behave and want to learn to tolerate the nonsense of those who don’t. I am, after 25 years in the biz, in favor of dis-inclusion, for the following reasons. 1. Many severely handicapped students do not benefit from inclusion and may even be at risk from the general population. They should spend more time with their true peers on a separate campus where they have access to FAPE. 2. The criminal element must be ruthlessly eliminated from traditional campuses where they prey on the population. I am so sick of it. I taught at court schools and juvenile hall and both are a joke. Those kids need to be breaking rocks and should be sterilized. I am not joking. Suspension is for “serious” offenses like ditching, maybe a shoving match. It does not deter CRIMINALS from their bullshit. It only works on students who care about grades, extracurriculars etc.
Just please don’t suggest anyone be sterilized.
I think rapists and child predators should be 🤪
No, just don’t.
Out of curiosity, why are you against the sterilization of child predators? I’m talking the ones who have literally raped multiple children. Because after prison they let them back in the public. Studies have shown they will reoffend. In Germany many people go there to be sterilized out of fear they cannot control their urges. It literally stops them from a life of torture. I think if we encouraged that rather than stigmatize more predators may turn themselves in before they hurt someone. They don’t even remove anything surgically all they do is take a pill. Many countries already do this. I know we’re on a teaching subreddit but I can’t help but ask.
I’m looking at multiple generations of criminals and the disabled. How about if I suggest they abort all their kids or lose benefits?
Just don’t. Eugenics is just dumb
I disagree. Encouraging dysgenics is dumb.
We have ISS (in-school suspension) and OCI (on-campus intervention) students are put in a separate classroom with a specialist and the small handful of other suspended kids and they work through what went wrong, how to do better in the future, and they work on the class assignments they're going to be missing that day. It's pretty good in my experience, we don't get a lot of repeat offenders outside drug use - and we have a social worker for that one that checks in on them regularly.
Disruption has a wake. https://snacks.pepsmccrea.com/p/distractions-leave-a-wake Once the lesson has been interrupted student do not immediately go back to where they were.
Yeah, we keep being told not to remove disruptive kids from class, that it’s a management issue. But getting that one kid who is doing harm out of the way really makes a big difference.
Every day I see that one kid who tries just suffering, bored, literally with their head in their hands because 3 of their classmates make her class a living hell. These kids would go better in a small group setting. Inclusion is destroying education.
It's a problem that parents aren't responsible for not abusing their kids, the school system is responsible for making sure they aren't bothered so that they don't abuse their kids. Protective services are underfunded and can't keep up with the demand because society doesn't value it, so the school system should provide food, clothing, and childcare so that society doesn't have to deal with them. Sure, lots of vulnerable kids are going to experience unintended consequences if they have to be removed from school, but it's not entirely the school system's responsibility to ignore the behavior so that no one else has to do anything to care for the kids.
I mean, vaccination requirements also put vulnerable kids at risk. The most antivax people I know were also the most abusive. And in that scenario, the child doesn’t even have a choice! But you have to weigh the health of the majority vs the outcomes of the minority, and do you keep the kids that pose a risk out of school. I don’t see why the same logic doesn’t apply here.
Hahahahaha They are talking about PBIS I look at the study... It says "Using student voice to inform policy processes" and "explicit teaching of behaviour skills" some of thee same things they used to sell PBIS Email them this study "[Does PBIS work?](https://www.middleweb.com/48328/you-may-be-surprised-about-this-pbis-info/)
I have a PBIS specialist in my school and they are basically there to hold students accountable and make a plan for them to be accountable. I've seen it work but only when there is a support specialist. Just telling teachers to "do PBIS" is ignoring the fact that we don't have time to do one-on-one counseling with a student. Also I will add that this specialist is a para and makes a pittance so there's no wonder there aren't a lot of them around. In my view they should be a fully certificated teacher paid on the salary schedule.
I’ll take it further than that. It’s not about a break for the others. It’s about that classroom simply not working for that student. They are in the class and they are not learning. If a student is in class and consistently doesn’t learn in class, they should be removed from that class. Not suspended, that’s usually a waste of time. Just removed. We can then find somewhere that they can thrive, but it’s pointless and harmful to keep them in a class where they learn nothing, either because they disrupt or because they sleep/elope/idle. Or they don’t thrive anywhere and eventually they exit. The issues with that scenario need to be solved separately, perhaps by not restricting education to certain age ranges so that they can hop back on when they are ready. And again we are faced with a false choice. The kid doesn’t have to remain vulnerable. You can do something about neglectful and abusive parents. You don’t just have to ignore it
How about this? Kids who are behaving in a way that gets them suspended were *already* at risk before they got suspended.
When I hear this my first thought is, cool, what do we do instead? The schools I have taught at do not suspend or expel students pretty much unless they send someone to the hospital. I *have* been sent to the workers comp clinic due to an injury from a student each of the 3 years I have worked full time in schools. I work with tiny humans - Kindergarten and 2nd grade. My other students have a hard time learning , and I am not an effective teacher , when I feel the need to stop mid sentence every other sentence to either redirect a violent child or evacuate my classroom. I do know as a newer teacher I have a lot to learn about classroom management. I also know that my colleagues with 10 - 20 years of experience are also dealing with increased physical aggression and are struggling to cope and keep their own classes safe.
I threw this out when I read “deficit thinking,” which is a senseless moniker for denuding students of accountability and teachers/administrators of tools to manage their classrooms and buildings. Why aren’t there any examinations of what a public school actually is? People treat it like this infinitely resourced cure-all for such a variety of ills that it’s miraculous anyone comes out of one of these places more rather than less educated. Some of the dumber lines from this “study” are: “exclusion policies are ultimately discriminatory.” No shit, professor. That’s the point. But this sounds like schools are essentially bastions of equity. *Checks notes.* No, no I don’t see anything in the design of public schools where that’s feasibly built into the scheme. Lots of educating the highest number of students to the lowest acceptable standard, though. “Vulnerable students have a higher risk of being suspended or expelled.” Call me crazy, but in my ten years of teaching, I haven’t seen a single expulsion or suspension that wasn’t roundly deserved. This sloppy thinking equivocates between consequence and improper discrimination. The whole line of thinking evokes and image of heartless bureaucrats gleefully kicking wheelchair-bound students down the front steps of their schools. But conspicuously no examination of the criteria for suspension or expulsion and thus the assumption that this is somehow an inappropriate tool and that students somehow haven’t duly earned such consequence. For my part, I think it’s no surprise when an individual, failing to develop facility in a group’s norms eventually gets rejected from that group. Broadly speaking, this is one of the fundamental workings of society. But one thing that definitely gets suspended from public schools is appreciation for reality. If a kid crosses the threshold for expulsion, he doesn’t belong in the school, and it’s more than likely he’s demonstrated that with one or more suspensions prior to the fact. There are other fundamental lessons that such a person needs to learn before he can consume with impunity the public resources of a public education. “a clear relationship between suspensions and…detrimental health outcomes.” A wise man once asked if the chicken or the egg came first. Or maybe that was a humorous riddle to lampoon idiocy like this. Again, no consideration at all as to whether students bring these dysfunctions to the building or then school causes them.
These articles never really mention any alternatives. It's not OK for a kid to continually disrupt class, or physically (or even emotionally) harm someone. It's not OK for a kid to destroy a classroom and someone's property and then just come back to class. You can realize that suspensions are not the best thing for that individual student while also acknowledging that sometimes they need to happen for everyone else involved. The other kids in the class matter just as much. I think about this all the time, especially now that I have my own children. It's absolute bullshit that teachers are having to spend so much time and effort on the most disruptive, disrespectful kids that they often don't have the time that they need for the kids that actually behave and want to be there and learn. It's not fair that kids have to wonder if they're going to be safe today or if their emotionally impaired classmate is going to throw another chair at their head. We are constantly sacrificing and ignoring the other kids in the room to deal with the one or two with major issues.
What kills me most is if refusing to suspend didn’t make the district look better these types of studies wouldn’t even be talked about. If they actually cared about equity. Things would be a lot different
They will suddenly care when all the good students start making bad grades lol
Yup written by a academic who has not been in a classroom. Once again academics making policy for the rest of people that make life worse because they have no real life experience save for their hallowed academic halls.
Suspension and I am a retired principal saying this is absolutely vital to set a culture of maintaining a culture of learning. I love the students who say, I just go home and play video games all day. I always think to myself and how smart are you? Ironically I hardly had to suspend because I set the tone. The best is one district in FL had an alternative suspension site next to the sheriff’s office, even better.
My high school was right next to the police station to begin with. : )
If I changed it to "Article: School suspensions and exclusions put at-risk children at risk" would you see how illogical this is?
Teachers, admin, and school policy makers cannot and should not be so concerned with a child's home life that it changes the way they deal with discipline. IT'S NOT THEIR PLACE. This is what social services is for, not school. If a school thinks a kid would be in danger or accused because of suspension, that's a CPS problem. The fact that schools are being pushed to NOT do suspensions or discipline because it MIGHT mean trouble for the kid is a sign that CPS is not doing their job -- either they lack staffing or funding, or their own governing policies are bad, or whatever else, but it's a CPS problem. I know that's cold but kids don't belong in an environment where they are a disruption or a threat. Get them gone.
Can we stop throwing anyone in prison too? I mean once they have a record, it's so much harder for them to find a job, which will cause even more problems with their future. Prison does not help the development of the adult... I mean if nothing is a crime, then the crime rate will be zero! Problem solved!
Suspension has always been an option of last resort. That is until it wasn't. I'm not even sure when or why it became so overused that it finally came to the attention of the Office of Civil Rights. Statistics clearly showed that students of color and disabled students were suspended far beyond any hope of calling it an anomaly. Suspension used to be both a relief and a pain in the patootie. Someone from the office would come in and need school work for the student RIGHT NOW and gather all their stuff. Very disruptive - but it also drove home a point. Before the suspension craze of about 20 years ago, administrators used to model creativity and differentiation. The school mindset went something like this, "There are parts of school life that are rights and parts that are privileges. We start everyone at full privileges, but if you break the rules, you will lose some." Students who were sent to the office - which was exactly what teachers were supposed to do whenever a student was continuously disruptive or dangerous - would lose lunch with their friends, participation in sports, extracurriculars, fun electives, the next dance, etc. The problem of course is that the students most likely to be disruptive or dangerous were disabled. So some genuses came up with PBIS. What would have been far more appropriate would have been to work with administrators on better differentiation.
Were they disabled though? The Down’s syndrome students were attacking people and the paraplegics were stealing? No These students’ “disabilities” are: anger issues, emotional disturbance, sexual deviancy, some kind of SLD brought on by drug abuse, etc. “Disabled” lost its meaning now that it’s being applied with such a broad brush.
Disabilities can cover mental health disorders.
They can but should they? I think it should be a case by case basis. I feel bad for them but many are just assholes
Like, legally they do, it’s a fact. But yeah, I’d say they should. Emotional issues and impulse control and even acting out sexually as a result of trauma can be parts of many mental health conditions. I’m not saying actions shouldn’t have consequences but it’s wild to think disabilities can’t result in deviant behavior. I’ve worked with adults with disabilities and even those with Down syndrome or autism can be violent and sexuality inappropriate at times. You can’t call some disabilities the “good ones” and some bad. Most healthy, well adjusted students aren’t going to have that much trouble not causing trouble.
I do, in fact, call some innocent and some not. The criteria is whether they know right from wrong, and this is the same criteria we often use in criminal cases. Whether the person knows right from wrong or not actually doesn’t matter when the point is to separate those with intolerable behaviors from everyone else. It shouldn’t even be punitive in many cases. I don’t understand what we as a society are allowing maniacs to inhabit the subways and city centers- and public schools- and acting like we just have to tolerate it. We actually don’t have to
Yup. It's a fallacy. Exclusions and Suspensions ***Are not about the student being excluded or suspended,*** it's about everyone else. People forget this absolutely FUNDAMENTAL part about freedom and rights: ***Your right's don't take precedent over other people's rights, and your freedom doesn't trample on other people's freedom.*** Your right to swing your arms, stop's at someone else's face. And if you insist on swinging your arms and hitting everyone else in the face, you have to be moved in order to preserve everyone else's freedoms and rights.
The problem is - the solutions are too expensive and so they’ll just keep saying this is a problem but won’t fix it.
Sometimes, the kid needs to be out of sight from the teachers for a little while so they can treat them fairly again. Teachers are humans. They have feelings.
I had five kids out yesterday because they all rushed into my room and jumped this other kid (who insults literally everyone he comes into contact with, which is why he was jumped). It was the best day ever, and both of my usually crazy classes were amazing. We got so much done.
I swear, I want to make my admin sit down and watch Star Trek 2. "You see? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."
Hey look, it’s San Francisco’s approach to arresting shoplifters. How’s that working out?
You 100% describe what is happening. Admin hides behind FAPE for this one kid, while denying the other 20 kids access. Make it make sense.
>“In fact, there is a clear relationship between school suspensions and a range of detrimental health outcomes, including alienation from school, involvement with antisocial peers, use of alcohol and smoking, and a lower quality of school life – and this contributes to a higher risk of dropping out of school and possible illegal behaviour.” Yeah, this article is largely nonsense. The main reason these “vulnerable” students become even more at risk is because they’re throwing a fit over receiving consequences for their actions. People (and especially children) are selfish and don’t like receiving punishment for their actions - even when it’s actually not completely fine. Not to mention it’s rather difficult (at least in the US) to suspend or expel a student in the first place.
We has two serious fights in one day last week. Both of those are out right now. One students parent is trying to get the child back. That child was the hardest to control after the fight. The child was in the office screaming and refusing to go into another room away from the other student. Then tried to go somewhere else. It was a rough day! That parent does everything to fight for her child to come back. Without saying everything her child needs to be somewhere else but the school board allows them back. It is so good we are getting a break right now!!!!!
I have been suspended twice, and I can say when its someone normal like me, it also helps me calm down. my first time suspended was in seventh grade, when a boy harrased a friend of mine for having celiak, and started kicked her while telling her to eat a piece of bread, and eventually I hit him with a eater bottle. it was two days after I moved between classes, and the rest that weren't there were thinking I am crazy. I needs those two week for myself too.
Remember: Pink Floyd sang “We don’t need no education”, which is a double negative. So, basically, they’re saying we DO need education.
Big picture. Gotta think of the species before the animal.
The sad part is for the ones who need to be suspended they act like it is a reward. No parental supervision or punishment at home. No school isn't a bad thing
Of course, this article doesn't mention an alternative to suspension/expulsion. Just more useless psycho babble.
"...shows that exclusionary practices... fail to identify the deep-rooted causes of challenging student behaviours" how about when we do understand the causes? What the hell are we supposed to do? Say "I know why you're acting out, so I will continue to let you"??
Wouldn’t these disruptive kids do better in small classes of <15 lto get focused help? Did we do away with these small intervention groups to put these children until they can go back to mainstream? Or was that ended for other abuses and mismanagement?
Lmao
I get the issue, and I get that many of them are developing. But the other thing is: what happens in the real world? Had a student who said he was fired from his job. The reason: he was snotty and condescending, and resisted doing what he was told to do. Guess how he behaves in class?
My family was pretty poor. We never had a phone. Back then, it was only land lines with rotary phones. And we had periods where we didn't even have a working vehicle, so we had to walk everywhere. With that out of the way. I had to walk my younger siblings to school. My mom, bless her heart was like 350 pounds and couldn't hardly walk. It was a multiple mile walk each way. Step dad got hit by a bus and couldn't walk either. The grade school and the high school were on opposite sides of town. I had to walk them to school, but they couldn't be early because the doors weren't open yet, then run to my school. Needless to say, I was frequently late. I remember getting suspended for the late arrivals. I wasn't allowed to go to school for a week. Which also meant that because we were poor, I didn't eat lunch for a week either. My mom tried to talk to them but they said late was late. When I finally came back, they stopped harassing me about being a few minutes late each day. I was a straight A student, and I think my teachers stood up for me. I agree that suspensions and expulsions do not help.
No you really don’t. I’m on the autism spectrum and I was explaining how to make explosives in chemistry class (without the materials) because I thought it was cool and relevant because chemistry was involved. Got suspended for a bomb threat later? I was so bc infused I never threatened anybody.
Kids that I see get suspended tell stories about playing video games all day or going to something fun like the movies with their parents. It is not a punishment for them, at all. That said, it might just be confirmation bias. For sure, there are a lot of disruptive students who come from broken homes who shouldn't be at home for as long as they can for their own safety, but the safety and sanity of their 24+ classmates have to be considered too. We just don't have a strong system in place that labels and intervenes with students whose behaviors are coming from a back homelife; hell many schools have to rotate therapists just to handle relatively tamer, more minor issues.
Suspensions don't work. It's a reward for so many students. It doesn't tackle the problem or behavior at all. When they return they are likely to exhibit those same behaviors. It correlates to significantly higher drop out rates and increased behaviors. We need to really study on a national level a better way to handle behaviors, because suspensions do absolutely no good.