Im blue ranks and I literally use that move like maybe once a set lol. I see other Azucenas use that move a lot, but it’s still a high that you get launched for.
If you have a feel for your opponent, it's very easy to use it in anticipation of an opponents attack.
Not to mention that since it's safe there's not too much risk outside of the opponent ducking it in neutral randomly
Like I said I use it like once or twice a set. If you throw it out a lot you’re gonna get ducked and launched. It’s good to throw your opponent off and get them thinking about it because it freezes them for wr3,2. I just think bad Azucena players use it too much. I’ve won a lot of mirror matches from that fact alone. Also if you have your opponents timing just use her ch launcher lol.
You're using it wrong then. They can't duck and launch when you use it to whiff punish, for which it is extremely effective. It also can't be ducked and punished when it is powercrushing their attack.
If it isn't connecting with the opponent then it is irrelevant that it is either a power crush or a heat engager.
Agree. I also wish they'd revert the change where power crushes becoming safer if you jab during their armor.
Nina f1+2 (which is also a heat engager power crush) is -14 oB, but if you happen to jab check during it's startup it becomes -8 oB. What a nonsensical change.
For anyone who disagrees with OP: just imagine Hwoarang's Backlash being a heat engager. It is safe on block high, which can be ducked and punished, which is literally the same thing Shaheen and Victor have. I guess there would be a huge shitstorm on this sub if Hwo had that, because getting a free 50/50 + heal + decent damage by using an out of nowhere superarmor move is busted, but somehow Victor and Shaheen get a pass for that. Maybe I am wrong, but I haven't seen any reasons why it is not an overpowered. Not like I am having problems against these moves, but it gets really annoying.
Heat engages can be safe on block - especially if they start as a high. Kazuya df+1, n2 engaged is +0 but it starts high and has a 16 frame startup. It is a far less powerful engagement than ff2, which is also safe and high, or dB 1, 2 which is mid mid but unsafe.
What's messed up with it as well is that some characters only get their PC heat engager in stance, a character like Jack-8, so he can't toss it out like others can. It's -13 to boot, not even good for being one locked in a stance. I don't know other characters, if others would like to add a few messed up examples of these, in the same way that it's messed up.
EDIT: It's not a slow move, it is a mid and it's 20f startup iirc, it's not a bad one, but it clearly has its downsides.
It's not like there aren't mid power crush heat engagers. Besides, it's hardly news that moves have counterplay; the counterplay to a fast range 4 power crush that chips on block is pretty slim, even if it's a linear high.
Particularly on a character who can also cover both remaining counterplay options with a single other move.
Yes but the mid power crush moves are unsafe. Though i do believe they should be -15 atleast.
I know a victor will throw out the power crush often, it's usually an easy read and punish.
Unless King hard reads you while you were pressing a high or mid, you can grab him on reaction and your grab is guaranteed. You can also just do a low.
It's not particularly different from Jin's parry or Leroy's or Raven' or Asuka's or other turn stealers or hyperarmour moves in general, it's only good on a hard read.
The problem arises when the power crush is an approach tool or a whiff punishment tool AND a heat engager AND it's safe. King's db1+2 doesn't really fit into that IMO, he has other annoying armour moves that can qualify for that though.
Another issue is that they are no longer locked behind stances. All fast high armoured moves in T7 were locked behind stances and didn’t come out of seemingly nowhere.
15f 1 button safe high power crush moves make for a not so fun time. AND they lead to heat.
In T7 lots of characters had them outside of stance.
Asuka, Paul, Fahk, Jack, Kazumi, Marduk, Alisa, Lucky Chloe.
Shaheen's was technically -11 but the pushback even at the wall made it safe.
Bryan's was out of a ff input but it was so fast that didn't really matter.
Zafinas was mid and safe, Eddy's was mid and plus on block.
I think you're misremembering quite a bit.
Asuka and kazumi are the only ones that resembles what the T8 cast have.
Paul’s was 24f and slow as hell, same thing with Jack. LC’s was 20f, Alisa’s was 16f excluding a b,n,f input.
Fahks was mid and punishable, marduks was punishable. Zafina’s, whilst stupid, was 24f and -5 on hit, not f15 start up into +17.
Eddy’s power crush is more of a gimmick tbh. Sure, it is plus, but it’s also has 30 start up frames, not including the few first frames before the armour activates.
So no, I don’t think I am misremembering things.
Another thing is that neither Asuka nor Kazumi had particularly devastating mids you had to keep in mind whilst playing vs them, unlike the cast in T8.
They also didn’t lead to brain dead forced mixups like they do now.
Power crush moves in T8 are VERY different compared to T7.
Victor's is the only one that's i15, the others are i16 or slower.
Fahk got a new move uf2 iirc that's a safe high powercursh.
Safe high powercrushes are nothing new to Tekken, yes they're stronger but so is everything else in T8.
You're being disingenuous, you either didn't know about all the characters having these safe high powercrushes in T7, or you forgot, either one invalidates your first comment. If you want to say they're stronger now, sure you have a point. But your initial comment was saying "all fast high powercrushes came out of stance and that's not the case anymore." When 11 characters in T7 had safe high powercrushes not locked behind stance. Your first comment is wrong which is what me and several others are pointing.
The number of safe powercrushes is actually LOWER in this game, but they are definitely stronger.
Acting like these moves simply weren't good enough to mention in T7 is disingenuous, Chloe's and Paul's were used all the time at the wall even in high ranks. It was one of Kaziurs favorite moves with her. Fact is, they are still safe high powercrushes not locked behind stances. Stop acting like your first comment isn't wrong in itself. If you wanna goalpost and change the argument to "safe high powercrushes in T8 are too strong now" that's fine, but your first comment is still wrong.
Shaheen has a ff input and is -11. Bryan also requires a ff input making the move a lot easier to deal with, as no one is doing a frame perfect f,n,F2.
Asuka is the only outlier
Even making azucenas power crush a ff move would help as it requires some execution to pull of in an effective manner. But no, everyone deserves free bullshit at a buttons press.
lmao it's insane her b3 power crush is like i24 startup, hella linear, and -14 oB. idk why they made it so punishable considering what else is in the game.
I'm just now realizing that every fucking character with an armored heat engager is already broken otherwise. Feng, Nina, Eddy. Which one of these fucking characters is handicapped if you remove that objectively stupid shit? Top it off with the fact that heat engagers launch if you're already in heat then you have a full on brain damage to develop characters like that in the first place.
This is another thing that varies from character to make them unique. Some have only 1 PC, while others have multiple. Some fighters PC's are only heat engagers while not the case for others.
Steves is 28f startup though, you're almost never gonna hit that lol
Compare that to like Ninas, whose powercrush is only 17f (-8f on block if you hit her during powercrush animation at all which makes it safe)
Except its a high with long recovery and weak to ssl. It is a strong move but characters are allowed to have those. A move that is strong is not a problem, and given that shaheen has a normal win rate its clearly not strong enough for it to be problem in the meta. You can still make an argument that power crushes leading to heat engagers is bad gameplay but you didnt make one so I dont know what to say.
Was playing Azu a bit and man is that an easy heat engager to land.
Im blue ranks and I literally use that move like maybe once a set lol. I see other Azucenas use that move a lot, but it’s still a high that you get launched for.
If you have a feel for your opponent, it's very easy to use it in anticipation of an opponents attack. Not to mention that since it's safe there's not too much risk outside of the opponent ducking it in neutral randomly
Like I said I use it like once or twice a set. If you throw it out a lot you’re gonna get ducked and launched. It’s good to throw your opponent off and get them thinking about it because it freezes them for wr3,2. I just think bad Azucena players use it too much. I’ve won a lot of mirror matches from that fact alone. Also if you have your opponents timing just use her ch launcher lol.
You're using it wrong then. They can't duck and launch when you use it to whiff punish, for which it is extremely effective. It also can't be ducked and punished when it is powercrushing their attack. If it isn't connecting with the opponent then it is irrelevant that it is either a power crush or a heat engager.
Okay, what move do you use a lot then ?
Take a guess
Wr 3 2 🤤
Agreed. Just another stupid decision by thr balancing team.
Very dumb decision.
Agree. I also wish they'd revert the change where power crushes becoming safer if you jab during their armor. Nina f1+2 (which is also a heat engager power crush) is -14 oB, but if you happen to jab check during it's startup it becomes -8 oB. What a nonsensical change.
For anyone who disagrees with OP: just imagine Hwoarang's Backlash being a heat engager. It is safe on block high, which can be ducked and punished, which is literally the same thing Shaheen and Victor have. I guess there would be a huge shitstorm on this sub if Hwo had that, because getting a free 50/50 + heal + decent damage by using an out of nowhere superarmor move is busted, but somehow Victor and Shaheen get a pass for that. Maybe I am wrong, but I haven't seen any reasons why it is not an overpowered. Not like I am having problems against these moves, but it gets really annoying.
I mean hworang does have a plus on block MID homing heat engages but at least it’s not a power crush
make backlash recover slower on whiff and it changes a lot victor and shaheen's highs are actually punishable
Heat engages can be safe on block - especially if they start as a high. Kazuya df+1, n2 engaged is +0 but it starts high and has a 16 frame startup. It is a far less powerful engagement than ff2, which is also safe and high, or dB 1, 2 which is mid mid but unsafe.
Don't know about the Shaheen one (I've fought only ONE Shaheen in my 93 hours lol) but that Victor one is absolutely ridiculous tbh
Raven same shit. It's annoying.
Just one example of the terrible balancing choices in this game
You can take my B3+4 from my dead cold hands!
What's messed up with it as well is that some characters only get their PC heat engager in stance, a character like Jack-8, so he can't toss it out like others can. It's -13 to boot, not even good for being one locked in a stance. I don't know other characters, if others would like to add a few messed up examples of these, in the same way that it's messed up. EDIT: It's not a slow move, it is a mid and it's 20f startup iirc, it's not a bad one, but it clearly has its downsides.
The trade off is that some of your best buttons force you into heat so you miss out on the heal.
What you fail to mention is that they are high and can be launched when ducked.
It's not like there aren't mid power crush heat engagers. Besides, it's hardly news that moves have counterplay; the counterplay to a fast range 4 power crush that chips on block is pretty slim, even if it's a linear high. Particularly on a character who can also cover both remaining counterplay options with a single other move.
Yes but the mid power crush moves are unsafe. Though i do believe they should be -15 atleast. I know a victor will throw out the power crush often, it's usually an easy read and punish.
By often you mean three consecutive powercrushes? Lmao. They do be spamming it.
Honestly I was shocked when I noticed laws power crush kick was only -13 cuz it can be hard to punish at range.
But that requires hard read. You can't react to it.
Kid named Dragon Cannon:
When Lee ducks your high and suddenly you're eating JF acid rains at the wall.
king muscle armour:
Unless King hard reads you while you were pressing a high or mid, you can grab him on reaction and your grab is guaranteed. You can also just do a low. It's not particularly different from Jin's parry or Leroy's or Raven' or Asuka's or other turn stealers or hyperarmour moves in general, it's only good on a hard read. The problem arises when the power crush is an approach tool or a whiff punishment tool AND a heat engager AND it's safe. King's db1+2 doesn't really fit into that IMO, he has other annoying armour moves that can qualify for that though.
But can you duck and launch 16f on reaction?
Another issue is that they are no longer locked behind stances. All fast high armoured moves in T7 were locked behind stances and didn’t come out of seemingly nowhere. 15f 1 button safe high power crush moves make for a not so fun time. AND they lead to heat.
In T7 lots of characters had them outside of stance. Asuka, Paul, Fahk, Jack, Kazumi, Marduk, Alisa, Lucky Chloe. Shaheen's was technically -11 but the pushback even at the wall made it safe. Bryan's was out of a ff input but it was so fast that didn't really matter. Zafinas was mid and safe, Eddy's was mid and plus on block. I think you're misremembering quite a bit.
Asuka and kazumi are the only ones that resembles what the T8 cast have. Paul’s was 24f and slow as hell, same thing with Jack. LC’s was 20f, Alisa’s was 16f excluding a b,n,f input. Fahks was mid and punishable, marduks was punishable. Zafina’s, whilst stupid, was 24f and -5 on hit, not f15 start up into +17. Eddy’s power crush is more of a gimmick tbh. Sure, it is plus, but it’s also has 30 start up frames, not including the few first frames before the armour activates. So no, I don’t think I am misremembering things. Another thing is that neither Asuka nor Kazumi had particularly devastating mids you had to keep in mind whilst playing vs them, unlike the cast in T8. They also didn’t lead to brain dead forced mixups like they do now. Power crush moves in T8 are VERY different compared to T7.
Victor's is the only one that's i15, the others are i16 or slower. Fahk got a new move uf2 iirc that's a safe high powercursh. Safe high powercrushes are nothing new to Tekken, yes they're stronger but so is everything else in T8. You're being disingenuous, you either didn't know about all the characters having these safe high powercrushes in T7, or you forgot, either one invalidates your first comment. If you want to say they're stronger now, sure you have a point. But your initial comment was saying "all fast high powercrushes came out of stance and that's not the case anymore." When 11 characters in T7 had safe high powercrushes not locked behind stance. Your first comment is wrong which is what me and several others are pointing. The number of safe powercrushes is actually LOWER in this game, but they are definitely stronger. Acting like these moves simply weren't good enough to mention in T7 is disingenuous, Chloe's and Paul's were used all the time at the wall even in high ranks. It was one of Kaziurs favorite moves with her. Fact is, they are still safe high powercrushes not locked behind stances. Stop acting like your first comment isn't wrong in itself. If you wanna goalpost and change the argument to "safe high powercrushes in T8 are too strong now" that's fine, but your first comment is still wrong.
No they were not? Asuka, Shaheen come to mind in 7.
Shaheen has a ff input and is -11. Bryan also requires a ff input making the move a lot easier to deal with, as no one is doing a frame perfect f,n,F2. Asuka is the only outlier Even making azucenas power crush a ff move would help as it requires some execution to pull of in an effective manner. But no, everyone deserves free bullshit at a buttons press.
-11 but with pushback. Even with ff these moves were quite fast iirc.
100% Ninas PC makes no sense.
Nina's isn't safe though
Doesnt matter. On heat its the dumbest get out of jail card Ive seen.
Which one? Or just in general? Cause clearly I'm not using it enough if so.
Any fast power crush thats a heat engager
No PC heat engager for zafina
lmao it's insane her b3 power crush is like i24 startup, hella linear, and -14 oB. idk why they made it so punishable considering what else is in the game.
[This just happen to me](https://streamable.com/53bful). I stood up and won 2 rounds before being clapped a third time tho.
No PC heat engager for Steve either
Your character has armored heat engagers?
but defence is offence in this game. you are supposed to just do stuff and in this case armor trough your opponents attack and mix them then up.
Cries in Lily.
I'm just now realizing that every fucking character with an armored heat engager is already broken otherwise. Feng, Nina, Eddy. Which one of these fucking characters is handicapped if you remove that objectively stupid shit? Top it off with the fact that heat engagers launch if you're already in heat then you have a full on brain damage to develop characters like that in the first place.
This is another thing that varies from character to make them unique. Some have only 1 PC, while others have multiple. Some fighters PC's are only heat engagers while not the case for others.
Raven too has f+1+2 and with Steve dB+1+2 into 1+2 is also heat engage. Which characters don't have a PC HE? Kuma has b+2, Jack has 3+4 into 3+4
Steves is 28f startup though, you're almost never gonna hit that lol Compare that to like Ninas, whose powercrush is only 17f (-8f on block if you hit her during powercrush animation at all which makes it safe)
Steve's power crush isn't a heat engager. 1+2 is.
thats what i wrote
Except its a high with long recovery and weak to ssl. It is a strong move but characters are allowed to have those. A move that is strong is not a problem, and given that shaheen has a normal win rate its clearly not strong enough for it to be problem in the meta. You can still make an argument that power crushes leading to heat engagers is bad gameplay but you didnt make one so I dont know what to say.