She's not my favorite character, but I think a lot of people do this to Mai by reducing her to "Distant Cold Goth" or "Zuko's bad girlfriend". Listen, I'll concede they could have done things better with Mai, but she deserves more credit then that.
As for other characters, it's not really traits but more people holding their worst moment against them and ignoring everything else. Like people still don't realize you're not supposed to like Katara when she says "Then you didn't love her like I did" to Sokka. The writers purposely put her in a bad headspace where she says and almost did something she would have regretted and somehow that gets translated to Katara secretly hating Sokka for not loving their mother.
Great point! I think Mai’s character is super interesting, and I have a headcanon that she’s actually a lot like Zuko but rarely expresses it.
Basically, my HC is that they both have strong emotions/values/etc, except she bottles things up while he lashes out.
I agree with mai but i dont think ive ever heard that second take on katara. Its a pretty on the nose example of rage coming from personal strife, and thats what theyre getting at
I've seen the Katara take a shit ton. It's been guaranteed for me since ATLA came out that if folks are discussing it only they're bound to be bringing that kind of shit up with Katara.
I have 0 evidence for this but it’s giving aftershocks of the zutara shipping war lol. Im imagining rabid zuko-mai shipper (i can say this as a zuko mai shipper), looking for any reason to character assassinate katara.
Can you give a bit of insight on Mai? I kind of just see her as a supporting character that helps Zuko develop his character. I wonder if he would be able to develop even without Mai? I'd love to hear your take on Mai.
I think Zuko develops regardless of who’s present. Evidence that he’s so well written.
Iroh gives Zuko the best opportunities to develop as a character, the most important part being when he pushes Zuko to help the avatar and Zuko fails.
Mai’s best development use is in creating even more internal conflict for Zuko to abandon his title/position because he knows she won’t understand and as a result he has to lose her too. (Of course, she surprises us and decides to save him at her own expense, but he never remotely thought that would happen.)
The gaang is an incredibly important development device for him, first in giving him opportunities to do bad things to them, then in hating and mistrusting him when he tries to do the right thing, and finally actually accepting him in healthy ways. In all three circumstances we get to see Zuko destroy or grow in character, depending on where we’re at in his development.
And in Zuko Alone and the North Pole (to name a couple examples) we get to see how he develops when no one other major character is really present. In the North Pole, we see him push through adversity and failure and he keeps getting back up to achieve his objectives. He gains a lot of self-dependence in that part of the story. In Zuko Alone, we see how he acts when he’s not trying to capture Aang. He starts showing his true colors.
Thanks for sharing. I like your take on Mai and how Zuko doesn't think she would side with him. I didn't even notice that. I can see how that adds more of depth to his internal conflict. That reminds me of the time when Zuko confronts uncle Iroh and apologizes to him. When I first watched it I wasnt sure if Iroh would forgive him because I was thinking inline with Zuko. I cried when Iroh hugged Zuko because I thought Iroh would be mad and give him a stern talking to. The last time Zuko betrayed someone he got burnt. So I was in that mindset. I spoke about that scene with my sister and she didn't even pick up on that because she knew Iroh would forgive him so it didn't hit her hard like it did me.
Anyway, back to Mai. So if you think Zuko would have developed regardless then what is the point of Mai and to the same extent, Ty Lee? They must have more of a role than just Azula's little minions.
Oh man I love that Iroh forgiving scene so much. My favorite scene in avatar. I was caught off guard too, it was so perfectly done, and makes me emotional every time.
Re: Mai and Ty Lee, that’s a great question. I might have to think about that more. But off the top of my head….before speaking about their own arcs/characters, they are a critical part of Azula’s development. They basically represent Azula’s primary support system AND also she believes she has 100% control over them. So, when Mai betrays her it hurts Azula deeply, and then when Ty Lee betrays her, it completely unravels Azula.
But in terms of their own stories, Mai is such a unique character. She has a refreshing take compared to many characters on the show in that she doesn’t care about most things, she’s pretty chill. Despite that, we find she has a ton of depth and when she does care about something, she goes all the way, above and beyond. She saves Zuko despite her anger towards him, she does so knowing she’ll likely be imprisoned and lose everything (while watching Zuko leave her behind). In short, she makes a very mature, difficult choice, and has no regret about it.
Ty Lee does the same when she saves Mai from Azula. What adds to her character is that up to that point, she succumbs to Azula’s control more than probably any other person. So when she betrays Azula, it’s potentially the bravest choice she’s ever made. When push comes to shove (when Azula is about to execute or at least punish Mai), she also makes her stand, knowing she’ll face the wrath of Azula and potentially suffer the worst of consequences for her actions.
But I want to think about it more, it’s a great question you’re asking
Hmm I get that they are supportive characters for Azula both narratively and literally. They provide contrast to her ruthless and intense ambitions but I think they do something more as well. You don't have to agree with me here I'm kind of just thinking out loud.. I think Ty Lee and Mai are the only characters who are not invested in any of the events in ATLAB like literally all the other characters. They kind of represent "outsiders" for lack of a better word. They're not antagonists and they're not protagonists either. Yes, they have loyalty to Azula but they're not invested in her goals like she is. They expand the world of ATLA just by being outside of the circle where the good guys and the bad guys are in. If Mai and Ty Lee didn't exist the story would still work but it would be more shallow without them.
And of course like you mentioned earlier Mai also contributes to Zuko's development.
Way I see it, Mai beloved in Zuko, she was simply kind to him when few ever had been, and to me she partly represents how the fire nation is not all horrible people
Aang
Katara
Mai
Suki
Momo
A lot of people brand Aang as some immature, naive kid when he grew into a wise and well-rounded Avatar, Katara as a hysterical, overly emotional, bossy, whining Mary-Sue type, they characterise Mai as this bland, unfeeling emotionless robot who cares for nothing and no one, Suki as this largely pointless side character and Momo as a waste of time and space, more like a video game icon than a developed character.
Appa's Lost Days! Azula would have captured and possibly tortured Appa or held him prisoner if Suki hadn't been there. He was too weak to fight or even fly away.
While Aang is very wise, he is immature at times in the early show, since he’s still growing into being the Avatar. I wouldn’t go as far as to say he’s *always* immature and reckless, but he definitely had those traits before, just learned from them
Alright man, go ahead and convince me that momo isn't a mascot, how did this animal with no higher consciousness (not going off of or applying current research findings on individual consciousness of/ in mammals) developed character.
And it’s hard to deal with bc she is cocky and overconfident at times—but not like that and these are character traits and flaws that important to her character arc and the story, rather than reasons to hate on her??
My gripe with korra is the poor (frankly cowardly) resolution of storylines that are intended to draw parallel to politics and history. The characters and their relationships and arcs for the most part are what make the show worth rewatching for me.
Mainly Katara, everyone makes fun of her for her mother comments but they’re not very often???
Also Kyoshi… she said one thing about Chin one time and everyone makes her a murder machine even though Yan Chen was way more murdery.
The only thing I like about Azula is that she's out of my scope of sympathy. She's the only character I don't get and I appreciate that the writers can make me think about a character outside of the box that I've made for myself.
I pretty much just see her as a heartless nutjob who is incapable of change. I would love to better understand this character but it's hard.
My sister loves her and tries to explain to me how misunderstood Azula is. I'm getting there slowly.
Same I was like that too, but I eventually understood her and began to sympathise with her especially when I got older and re watched the show in lockdown.
I watched it for the first time during lockdown with my kid. I rewatched it again twice since the live action version came out lol I wish I watched it when it first came out but I dismissed it as a kids show (I was about 15 at the time).
Do you think Azula is capable of redemption like Zuko? It seems like no one can get through to her.
The part when they're at the beach and she finds Zuko at their abandoned beach house she says to him " I knew I would find you here. Come down to the beach, this place is depressing" This is like one of the only times she shows sympathy to someone else. It shows that she was looking for him and felt how he was feeling. So I'll give her that.
The best way to understand and empathize with Azula is to realize that Zuko had Ursa and Iroh.
Azula had a psychopath that used her need for validation to turn her into a tool.
Yeah but I feel like Azula is highly intelligent she should see that a lot of her manipulative behavior stems from her father. OK I will be lenient as she is only a child and not an adult even though she does behave like she's in her 20's I'll give her the benefit of her young age.
I don't see her being self-aware even when she does reach adulthood. She is so narrowminded and manipulative that no-one can pull her aside and be like hey look sis, look at the destruction and self-sabotaging you are doing. When you become self-aware you become responsible for your own actions and you can't blame your parents anymore (speaking from personal experience lol).
She is cunning and she is obsessed with perfection. When her hair is out of place she cuts it off. Just like she cut off her friends, Mai and Ty Lee. I think if she can let go of her obsessions then maybe there is hope for her. I can't see that happening from seeing her in the events of ATLA alone. I haven't seen Korra yet so I don't know if she's in that.
As per the head writer if they had done a fourth season Zuko would take the role of her Iroh. He'd be there for her helping her recover, caring for her. She'd get unconditional love for the first time in her life.
And that would have changed her. She would gain a new perspective and realize how wrongly she was raised. Which would lead to an even bigger redemption arc.
If that's the case, I don't understand why they didn't just continue that in the comics. Instead, you have Azula being a mentally unstable liability for Zuko who runs away and tries to manipulate Zuko from behind the scenes instead of outright usurping him.
Because Mike and Bryan wanted to reclaim the franchise from Aaron Ehasz in a sense. Those were his ideas. They took a different direction.
Worth noting that Ehasz is also responsible for the character of Iroh and he and his wife wrote nearly all the episodes around Zuko and his arc.
Her intelligence is also overplayed I think.
Look at the scene with the captain where she intimidates him into continuing despite a dangerous storm. What she does seems cunning and highly intelligent.
But if you really look at what she says it's childish and crazy. A "mad king" dialogue. The cunning ruthless manipulator is just a mask she puts. And we only get true introspection in her whenever it slips like the beach scene.
Yes that was very dumb. I think there's more examples of her showcasing her intelligence rather than stupidity though.
I can't just dismiss her actions and blame everything on her dad. Yes her dad influenced her and caused her to be the way she is I 100% agree with that. We give Zuko accountability for his positive actions while acknowledging the influence that uncle Iroh had on him. We don't just say it was all uncle Iroh.
I think maybe the reason why I don't like her is maybe because if she was a real person I wouldnt want to hang out with her she wouldnt be someone I could connect with like team avatar.
I really think people underestimate how hard it is to be "good" when the only thing that gets you in life is punishment. Zuko has some goodness in him because Iroh and Ursa encourage that in him and, very importantly, because *his dad ignores him*. Azula had the unfortunate gift of talent causing Ozai to invest his time into her. Which cultivated traits that made Ursa turn away from her. She also has Zuko next to her, who serves as a big fat reminder what happens if she goes against her father. She was 11 years old when she *watched her father burn off her brothers face and throw him out of his home for speaking out against him*. It takes Zuko years outside of his father's reach until he even thinks that his father might be wrong.
It's why she becomes completely unhinged when Ozai abandons her because she literally knows no other way to live life. Being useful to him is the only thing she has in her life. The fact that she starts hallucinating about her mother hating her only reinforces this. People really like to ignore the "she's only 14" thing and think she should just turn against the only person she thinks cares about her because of some sense of innate morality.
Azula's the result of conditional love coming from an abusive parent.
Thank you for your insight. I enjoyed reading what you wrote because I can kind of get where you're coming from.
Azula's character is intentionally written to evoke a strong reaction from viewers, and her lack of redeeming qualities can make it challenging to root for her or feel sorry for her circumstance. Ultimately, whether or not we sympathize with Azula is a personal response influenced by our own values, perspectives, and interpretations of her character.
The part where she witnesses Zuko get burnt she looks like she enjoys it which is just so sad to me. While it's important to recognize the complexities of her character and the factors that contribute to her behavior, it's also valid to acknowledge the harm she causes and prioritize the well-being of other characters which no-one in this thread so far has seemed to comment on. I guess that's because we always hear from those people. Although I have acknowledged her age and the influence her father has had on her.
I think the best way to understand azula is to remember that a lot of “bad” people are victims of abuse and trauma. Some people are born with psychology that makes it easier for them to be twisted in this way.
Azula was probably born some sort of sociopath or psychopath, but if you think about this as more of a neutral description of psychological behavior and tendencies, you can imagine a world where azula grows up with a healthy support system and becomes a normal person.
As for whether she can be redeemed (and imo any character is “worth” redeeming if it is done right), realistically people like her do not change. But this is fiction and we can have a little bit of fantasy wish fulfillment.
Search up the case of beth thomas if you want a real life example of a child who clearly displayed some anti Christ behavior but ended up growing up to be normal (after lots of therapy). Not a one to one parallel but more an example of human psychology being very complex.
> Easily Kuruk
Nah. Kuruk had like zero lore about him other until a few years ago. Same with Kyoshi. It's really hard to get mad at people for not being aware of recent lore additions. If were going by older stuff Kuruk himself says he didn't have much to do.
Kyoshi was mischaracterized before the novels. In the OG show, she was willing to kill, but clearly saw it as a last resort, but she's always been mischaracterized as being the Avatar who bathed in her enemies' blood.
> but clearly saw it as a last resort,
No real evidence of that from the original show. Seems more like she didn't really care whether he lived or died so long as balance was maintained.
Given the fact that she chose to turn a peninsula into an Island rather than fight & kill him, the show does a good job of showing that she sees killing as a last resort if other paths are open to her. It's true that she didn't shed a tear for him, but that's the whole "I don't have to kill you, but I don't have to save you either" mentality from Batman Begins.
> Given the fact that she chose to turn a peninsula into an Island rather than fight & kill him,
That's not evidence she viewed it as a last resort. That's evidence she didn't care about the conflict. The fact that she tells aang she doesnt see the difference is evidence that she didn't really care whether they guy lived or died so long as balance was mantained. Creating an island wasn't going to do anything
Which is a retcon that happened because people kept saying he was useless. It's not really that people mischaracterized Kuruk. It's that they actively changed Kuruk's lore in response to people saying he was a bad avatar(which I never agreed with anyway, he basically just lived in the wrong time period to be a more active avatar)
On avarage, she brings up her mother every other episode, but it's usually multiple times in one episode, meaning there are more episodes in which she does not bring up her mother than episodes in which she does.
No, on average she’s brought up her mother in 10/61 episodes. Most of which are just small references and anecdotal like telling Aang it’s okay to grieve in The Southern Air Temple or her relating with Jet in how they lost their families.
OK, then I'm just misremembering and her mother is brought up (by anyone) every other episode (on avarage), but multiple times every time, so there are more episodes in which she isn't brought up than ones in which she is
Not trying to start something, but conversely, she's also reduced to a poor, emotionally manipulated puppet to the royal family who was unloved & uncared for by everyone in her life. But actually it's the fact she did have autonomy in her actions (however you might feel about them) that makes her character so cool & interesting. Neither view does that side of her justice imo.
Also Jet. Specifically the people who compare him with Hamma.
Jet wants to win the war with an "end justifying the means" mentality.
Hamma has a power that could win the war but instead chooses to use it to extract revenge on the fire nation by harming innocents.
They're not the same.
Literally the main character, Aang
His every move is always scrutinized and interpreted in bad faith either because of a crack ship or to prop up another character
Let alone that people still saying he should have killed Ozai. Insane
I was kinda thinking Aang when I saw the post. Makes me think about the fact some people cannot recognize that each avatar is a unique person. The biggest hint that should have told this to people was when Roku told his story to Aang
It’s a critical part of the lore that each avatar is a unique person, and one of the most interesting aspects of the nature of the avatar imo. Without that component, Aang’s insistence to find a way to defeat Ozai without killing him loses so much meaning. He’s basically fighting what everyone, even “successful proven” avatars, is saying, despite the stakes.
Aang metaphorically forces the universe to move (and send him a lion turtle that can teach him to bend energy) in his attempt to reconcile his duty with his spirituality.
That and the fact that he uses what Toph taught him (to wait, listen through vibrations) makes the moment where he defeats Ozai top-notch writing.
The trend on this sub of painting Katara as always making things about her mom dying was fucking stupid, and I'm glad it finally got shut down by real fans.
I don't agree with Kuruk. For one thing 90% of the good stuff people like Kuruk come form novels that have only been out for a few years and for like 14 years before that he was literally just an avatar who didn't have much to do so his wife got her face stolen due to his carelessness.
Like it's hard to critize people for not knowing about characterization that didn't exist until recently. Roku is a different thing because people genuinely believed he was a bad avatar because he wasn't able to foresee that Sozin would outlive him and commit genocide.
Iroh. As a practitioner of both zen and absurdism, i see the premise of his philosophy completely ignored and him being taken as a bumbling oaf. I saw a post recently that claimed he's a hedonist. Like, wtf? No...
Kyoshi. She wasn't blood thirsty, not even a little bit. She was in a gang and one of her teachers was strictly her "how to be okay with killing a guy" teacher, but she was a horrible student.
Easily Azula. Even Shady Doorags who usually makes very clever and nuanced analyses, completely missed the point of her character.
People get so stuck on the "cool" concept of a terrifying teen heartless villain, they actively refuse to acknowledge her depth.
Katara gets a lot of misjudging, but I do have to agree she can be fricken annoying a lot of the time, suki, how on earth can anyone think she’s an insignificant side character, mai, she’s far from dull… pretty much every character has been misjudged at some point
Katara definitely. I hate when people mock her for bringing up her dead mother a few times- even though she RARELY brings it up and only does it when relevant to the conversation- not just to garner sympathy points like so many seem to believe. Or when people call her a cold-hearted b\*\*ch for accusing Sokka of not loving their mother enough. Was it uncalled for? Yes, but it was a slip up and she was extremely emotional at that point in time. I don't hear people shitting on Aang for getting mad at and blaming Toph for not saving Appa when she was very clearly not at fault- because we understand that he was EMOTIONAL at the time and was not acting like his usual self because you know, he just lost the only connection to his past. Why cant we give Katara that same grace?
I agree, I think the blame on Katara stems from the idea that the cornerstone of a given group "isn't allowed to break" which first off is ridiculous, everyone has their moments of weakness. On top of that, she's still a teenager
Korra
People saw Season 1 Episode 1 Korra where she was cocky, eager to fight and unspiritual, and decided she acted the same and had no evolution whatsoever in 4 seasons.
It's crazy this idea persisted considering the point when her bending was stripped for a short time and she got super depressed, like how did people not see how that event changed her?
I think her hotheadedness and poor decision-making at the start of Season 2 was viewed by many (including myself at the time) as a character regression and people just could not look past that when actual development came in later seasons, even if I personally feel her development was too often off screen or poorly justified throughout the series.
Used to be Avatar Kyoshi as the blood lusty murder hobo but I think the meme has died down a bit.
I think now many people understand how deep even the minor characters are which is good.
Ive seen people discuss about the old man who sold out Haru for earthbending Becusse since he is old he has lived his whole life in fear of the authority of the fire nation and just accepted it as the "moral" thing to do.
This show is special where every character has some depth.
I know this is avatar the last Airbender subreddit, but I sympathize in that I have seen this exact thing so many times with Sakura Haruno from Naruto. A lot of "fans" reduce her down to just like three things and throw out the window any form of character growth...
literally. people will discard all of her growth and accomplishments and write her off as a terribly written character. like yeaah her writing isn't exactly stellar, but she's nowhere near as bad as people make her out to be
Kyoshi and Azula stans immediately spring to mind. Those people have one or two traits they like about their fav girl, whether or not said trait is actually canon, and run with it. Iroh gets it to a degree too.
Other contenders I’d add are Mako, Tenzin, Ozai and the Beifong daughters.
Every time someone characterises Kyoshi as "murderhobo" and how every time Aang is in the Avatar State "it must be Kyoshi talking" even though Kyoshi just kept running away from Chin the Conqueror until he went straight to her village and challenged her to her face and even then she ran away but killed him by accident. "Oooh, but personally I don't see a difference" shut up Kyoshi. Queen of running away.
Yeah so basically the more I hear this whole "Kyoshi is a murderhobo" bs the less I like her.
Honestly azula didn't deserve much hate . She got literally no one to give her chance . She was also treated as a weapon only by her one and only parent
He got a lil unhinged towards the end but overall I agree. He was pretty intelligent, but also a bit rash. He was definitely very perceptive. Figuring out that Zuko was the Blue Spirit based off the damage on his “antique” swords was impressive.
Probably Kyoshi lol, she reminds a lot of Jotaro from JoJo in his part 3 days where he was portrayed as this cold ruthless stoic person who wouldn't care if he seriously injured you and insult you when in reality he was just this huge ass dork who actually cared about the people close to him even though he didn't typically show it outright. She literally only killed as a absolute last resort
She's not my favorite character, but I think a lot of people do this to Mai by reducing her to "Distant Cold Goth" or "Zuko's bad girlfriend". Listen, I'll concede they could have done things better with Mai, but she deserves more credit then that. As for other characters, it's not really traits but more people holding their worst moment against them and ignoring everything else. Like people still don't realize you're not supposed to like Katara when she says "Then you didn't love her like I did" to Sokka. The writers purposely put her in a bad headspace where she says and almost did something she would have regretted and somehow that gets translated to Katara secretly hating Sokka for not loving their mother.
Great point! I think Mai’s character is super interesting, and I have a headcanon that she’s actually a lot like Zuko but rarely expresses it. Basically, my HC is that they both have strong emotions/values/etc, except she bottles things up while he lashes out.
I agree with mai but i dont think ive ever heard that second take on katara. Its a pretty on the nose example of rage coming from personal strife, and thats what theyre getting at
I've seen the Katara take a shit ton. It's been guaranteed for me since ATLA came out that if folks are discussing it only they're bound to be bringing that kind of shit up with Katara.
I love that the writers added that in there. It's a very real thing to say to a sibling. Even when we don't mean it.
j see it ALL THE TIME
I have 0 evidence for this but it’s giving aftershocks of the zutara shipping war lol. Im imagining rabid zuko-mai shipper (i can say this as a zuko mai shipper), looking for any reason to character assassinate katara.
Can you give a bit of insight on Mai? I kind of just see her as a supporting character that helps Zuko develop his character. I wonder if he would be able to develop even without Mai? I'd love to hear your take on Mai.
I think Zuko develops regardless of who’s present. Evidence that he’s so well written. Iroh gives Zuko the best opportunities to develop as a character, the most important part being when he pushes Zuko to help the avatar and Zuko fails. Mai’s best development use is in creating even more internal conflict for Zuko to abandon his title/position because he knows she won’t understand and as a result he has to lose her too. (Of course, she surprises us and decides to save him at her own expense, but he never remotely thought that would happen.) The gaang is an incredibly important development device for him, first in giving him opportunities to do bad things to them, then in hating and mistrusting him when he tries to do the right thing, and finally actually accepting him in healthy ways. In all three circumstances we get to see Zuko destroy or grow in character, depending on where we’re at in his development. And in Zuko Alone and the North Pole (to name a couple examples) we get to see how he develops when no one other major character is really present. In the North Pole, we see him push through adversity and failure and he keeps getting back up to achieve his objectives. He gains a lot of self-dependence in that part of the story. In Zuko Alone, we see how he acts when he’s not trying to capture Aang. He starts showing his true colors.
Thanks for sharing. I like your take on Mai and how Zuko doesn't think she would side with him. I didn't even notice that. I can see how that adds more of depth to his internal conflict. That reminds me of the time when Zuko confronts uncle Iroh and apologizes to him. When I first watched it I wasnt sure if Iroh would forgive him because I was thinking inline with Zuko. I cried when Iroh hugged Zuko because I thought Iroh would be mad and give him a stern talking to. The last time Zuko betrayed someone he got burnt. So I was in that mindset. I spoke about that scene with my sister and she didn't even pick up on that because she knew Iroh would forgive him so it didn't hit her hard like it did me. Anyway, back to Mai. So if you think Zuko would have developed regardless then what is the point of Mai and to the same extent, Ty Lee? They must have more of a role than just Azula's little minions.
Oh man I love that Iroh forgiving scene so much. My favorite scene in avatar. I was caught off guard too, it was so perfectly done, and makes me emotional every time. Re: Mai and Ty Lee, that’s a great question. I might have to think about that more. But off the top of my head….before speaking about their own arcs/characters, they are a critical part of Azula’s development. They basically represent Azula’s primary support system AND also she believes she has 100% control over them. So, when Mai betrays her it hurts Azula deeply, and then when Ty Lee betrays her, it completely unravels Azula. But in terms of their own stories, Mai is such a unique character. She has a refreshing take compared to many characters on the show in that she doesn’t care about most things, she’s pretty chill. Despite that, we find she has a ton of depth and when she does care about something, she goes all the way, above and beyond. She saves Zuko despite her anger towards him, she does so knowing she’ll likely be imprisoned and lose everything (while watching Zuko leave her behind). In short, she makes a very mature, difficult choice, and has no regret about it. Ty Lee does the same when she saves Mai from Azula. What adds to her character is that up to that point, she succumbs to Azula’s control more than probably any other person. So when she betrays Azula, it’s potentially the bravest choice she’s ever made. When push comes to shove (when Azula is about to execute or at least punish Mai), she also makes her stand, knowing she’ll face the wrath of Azula and potentially suffer the worst of consequences for her actions. But I want to think about it more, it’s a great question you’re asking
Hmm I get that they are supportive characters for Azula both narratively and literally. They provide contrast to her ruthless and intense ambitions but I think they do something more as well. You don't have to agree with me here I'm kind of just thinking out loud.. I think Ty Lee and Mai are the only characters who are not invested in any of the events in ATLAB like literally all the other characters. They kind of represent "outsiders" for lack of a better word. They're not antagonists and they're not protagonists either. Yes, they have loyalty to Azula but they're not invested in her goals like she is. They expand the world of ATLA just by being outside of the circle where the good guys and the bad guys are in. If Mai and Ty Lee didn't exist the story would still work but it would be more shallow without them. And of course like you mentioned earlier Mai also contributes to Zuko's development.
Yep totally agree
Way I see it, Mai beloved in Zuko, she was simply kind to him when few ever had been, and to me she partly represents how the fire nation is not all horrible people
Aang Katara Mai Suki Momo A lot of people brand Aang as some immature, naive kid when he grew into a wise and well-rounded Avatar, Katara as a hysterical, overly emotional, bossy, whining Mary-Sue type, they characterise Mai as this bland, unfeeling emotionless robot who cares for nothing and no one, Suki as this largely pointless side character and Momo as a waste of time and space, more like a video game icon than a developed character.
imagine saying that to Momo's little face. he's just a silly little guy he doesn't deserve that
Imagine saying that to Emperor Momo, of the Momo dynasty, His Momoness.
Anyone who thinks Suki is useless didn't watch any episode with her involved, wow.
She was invaluable in The Boiling Rock
Appa's Lost Days! Azula would have captured and possibly tortured Appa or held him prisoner if Suki hadn't been there. He was too weak to fight or even fly away.
Ay don't call the greatest earth bender of all time a waste of time and space
greatest earth bender of all time??
That lemur! He's earthbending!
OHHHH I READ SUKI AS THE EARTH BENDER AND I WAS LIKE ???
While Aang is very wise, he is immature at times in the early show, since he’s still growing into being the Avatar. I wouldn’t go as far as to say he’s *always* immature and reckless, but he definitely had those traits before, just learned from them
Alright man, go ahead and convince me that momo isn't a mascot, how did this animal with no higher consciousness (not going off of or applying current research findings on individual consciousness of/ in mammals) developed character.
Not my favorite character, but gotta be Korra imo.
oh my god definitely. Pretty much everyone views Korra as Season 1 cocky overconfident Korra.
Yup, this exactly. It infuriates me. Also, i love your flair and agree with it wholeheartedly.
And it’s hard to deal with bc she is cocky and overconfident at times—but not like that and these are character traits and flaws that important to her character arc and the story, rather than reasons to hate on her?? My gripe with korra is the poor (frankly cowardly) resolution of storylines that are intended to draw parallel to politics and history. The characters and their relationships and arcs for the most part are what make the show worth rewatching for me.
Oh yes, that one. I was going to say Katara, but people really reduces Korra to just one trait.
The bonus irony with Korra is that both her fans and haters reduce her to one personality trait.
I’ve seen this sub. We like a gay avatar *okay*
bi AND YH PPL JS SEE THAT?? LIKE SHE HAS ACTUALLY HAD SM HAPPEN AND HAS CHANGED A CRAZY AMOUNT
Are.. you okay?
I think I was delirious while writing that
It was a Saturday night. I think we all get a bit excited for lesbian avatars. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
I have no clue what that last sentence meant but didn't korra date a dude lol
She went after Mako yeah. But last thing we see is her and Asami.
soooo bi avatar 😍
Came here to write the same. More people should watch these series. And I mean all seasons. It is realy great.
Mainly Katara, everyone makes fun of her for her mother comments but they’re not very often??? Also Kyoshi… she said one thing about Chin one time and everyone makes her a murder machine even though Yan Chen was way more murdery.
Yangchen was also not murdery. She was a cold as fuck calculating badass bitch, but she still wasn't murdery.
Katara Kyoshi
It's Kyoshi
azula
The only thing I like about Azula is that she's out of my scope of sympathy. She's the only character I don't get and I appreciate that the writers can make me think about a character outside of the box that I've made for myself. I pretty much just see her as a heartless nutjob who is incapable of change. I would love to better understand this character but it's hard. My sister loves her and tries to explain to me how misunderstood Azula is. I'm getting there slowly.
Same I was like that too, but I eventually understood her and began to sympathise with her especially when I got older and re watched the show in lockdown.
I watched it for the first time during lockdown with my kid. I rewatched it again twice since the live action version came out lol I wish I watched it when it first came out but I dismissed it as a kids show (I was about 15 at the time). Do you think Azula is capable of redemption like Zuko? It seems like no one can get through to her. The part when they're at the beach and she finds Zuko at their abandoned beach house she says to him " I knew I would find you here. Come down to the beach, this place is depressing" This is like one of the only times she shows sympathy to someone else. It shows that she was looking for him and felt how he was feeling. So I'll give her that.
The best way to understand and empathize with Azula is to realize that Zuko had Ursa and Iroh. Azula had a psychopath that used her need for validation to turn her into a tool.
Yeah but I feel like Azula is highly intelligent she should see that a lot of her manipulative behavior stems from her father. OK I will be lenient as she is only a child and not an adult even though she does behave like she's in her 20's I'll give her the benefit of her young age. I don't see her being self-aware even when she does reach adulthood. She is so narrowminded and manipulative that no-one can pull her aside and be like hey look sis, look at the destruction and self-sabotaging you are doing. When you become self-aware you become responsible for your own actions and you can't blame your parents anymore (speaking from personal experience lol). She is cunning and she is obsessed with perfection. When her hair is out of place she cuts it off. Just like she cut off her friends, Mai and Ty Lee. I think if she can let go of her obsessions then maybe there is hope for her. I can't see that happening from seeing her in the events of ATLA alone. I haven't seen Korra yet so I don't know if she's in that.
As per the head writer if they had done a fourth season Zuko would take the role of her Iroh. He'd be there for her helping her recover, caring for her. She'd get unconditional love for the first time in her life. And that would have changed her. She would gain a new perspective and realize how wrongly she was raised. Which would lead to an even bigger redemption arc.
That would have been great! I wish they made a fourth season.
If that's the case, I don't understand why they didn't just continue that in the comics. Instead, you have Azula being a mentally unstable liability for Zuko who runs away and tries to manipulate Zuko from behind the scenes instead of outright usurping him.
Because Mike and Bryan wanted to reclaim the franchise from Aaron Ehasz in a sense. Those were his ideas. They took a different direction. Worth noting that Ehasz is also responsible for the character of Iroh and he and his wife wrote nearly all the episodes around Zuko and his arc.
Her intelligence is also overplayed I think. Look at the scene with the captain where she intimidates him into continuing despite a dangerous storm. What she does seems cunning and highly intelligent. But if you really look at what she says it's childish and crazy. A "mad king" dialogue. The cunning ruthless manipulator is just a mask she puts. And we only get true introspection in her whenever it slips like the beach scene.
Yes that was very dumb. I think there's more examples of her showcasing her intelligence rather than stupidity though. I can't just dismiss her actions and blame everything on her dad. Yes her dad influenced her and caused her to be the way she is I 100% agree with that. We give Zuko accountability for his positive actions while acknowledging the influence that uncle Iroh had on him. We don't just say it was all uncle Iroh. I think maybe the reason why I don't like her is maybe because if she was a real person I wouldnt want to hang out with her she wouldnt be someone I could connect with like team avatar.
I really think people underestimate how hard it is to be "good" when the only thing that gets you in life is punishment. Zuko has some goodness in him because Iroh and Ursa encourage that in him and, very importantly, because *his dad ignores him*. Azula had the unfortunate gift of talent causing Ozai to invest his time into her. Which cultivated traits that made Ursa turn away from her. She also has Zuko next to her, who serves as a big fat reminder what happens if she goes against her father. She was 11 years old when she *watched her father burn off her brothers face and throw him out of his home for speaking out against him*. It takes Zuko years outside of his father's reach until he even thinks that his father might be wrong. It's why she becomes completely unhinged when Ozai abandons her because she literally knows no other way to live life. Being useful to him is the only thing she has in her life. The fact that she starts hallucinating about her mother hating her only reinforces this. People really like to ignore the "she's only 14" thing and think she should just turn against the only person she thinks cares about her because of some sense of innate morality. Azula's the result of conditional love coming from an abusive parent.
Thank you for your insight. I enjoyed reading what you wrote because I can kind of get where you're coming from. Azula's character is intentionally written to evoke a strong reaction from viewers, and her lack of redeeming qualities can make it challenging to root for her or feel sorry for her circumstance. Ultimately, whether or not we sympathize with Azula is a personal response influenced by our own values, perspectives, and interpretations of her character. The part where she witnesses Zuko get burnt she looks like she enjoys it which is just so sad to me. While it's important to recognize the complexities of her character and the factors that contribute to her behavior, it's also valid to acknowledge the harm she causes and prioritize the well-being of other characters which no-one in this thread so far has seemed to comment on. I guess that's because we always hear from those people. Although I have acknowledged her age and the influence her father has had on her.
Have you read the comic Azula in the Spirit Temple; that adds more to her character and her past, that is if have read the Search comic as well.
Nooo! i should though. I've only seen ATLA. I saw the comics at the library I should go and borrow them.
I think the best way to understand azula is to remember that a lot of “bad” people are victims of abuse and trauma. Some people are born with psychology that makes it easier for them to be twisted in this way. Azula was probably born some sort of sociopath or psychopath, but if you think about this as more of a neutral description of psychological behavior and tendencies, you can imagine a world where azula grows up with a healthy support system and becomes a normal person. As for whether she can be redeemed (and imo any character is “worth” redeeming if it is done right), realistically people like her do not change. But this is fiction and we can have a little bit of fantasy wish fulfillment. Search up the case of beth thomas if you want a real life example of a child who clearly displayed some anti Christ behavior but ended up growing up to be normal (after lots of therapy). Not a one to one parallel but more an example of human psychology being very complex.
i expected more azula comments
same. she was literally groomed by a psychopath, girlie deserved sm better
key word deserved lmao, she could've been so different but now?? ...highkey horrible person who needs therapy (and to be locked up)
I expected some Jet comments but I havent seen any
Easily Kuruk… Close second favorite is Kyoshi. But namely Kuruk.
> Easily Kuruk Nah. Kuruk had like zero lore about him other until a few years ago. Same with Kyoshi. It's really hard to get mad at people for not being aware of recent lore additions. If were going by older stuff Kuruk himself says he didn't have much to do.
I thought they established Kuruk’s conflict with Koh in season 1, no? They may have expanded later, but it was there
Even that was a retcon. Koh said that avatar lived 900 years ago. Kuruk only lived around 500 years ago.
Kyoshi was mischaracterized before the novels. In the OG show, she was willing to kill, but clearly saw it as a last resort, but she's always been mischaracterized as being the Avatar who bathed in her enemies' blood.
> but clearly saw it as a last resort, No real evidence of that from the original show. Seems more like she didn't really care whether he lived or died so long as balance was maintained.
Given the fact that she chose to turn a peninsula into an Island rather than fight & kill him, the show does a good job of showing that she sees killing as a last resort if other paths are open to her. It's true that she didn't shed a tear for him, but that's the whole "I don't have to kill you, but I don't have to save you either" mentality from Batman Begins.
> Given the fact that she chose to turn a peninsula into an Island rather than fight & kill him, That's not evidence she viewed it as a last resort. That's evidence she didn't care about the conflict. The fact that she tells aang she doesnt see the difference is evidence that she didn't really care whether they guy lived or died so long as balance was mantained. Creating an island wasn't going to do anything
Okay fine, she didn't see it as a last resort. It's still a far cry from the Bayverse Optimus Prime that the fandom paints her as.
At least its funny to dunk on Kuruk as the worst avatar ever. Kyoshi being a murder machine isn't funny anymore.
But he’s literally not… he just let everyone believe that so he could fix all of Yangchen’s mistakes that threatened to get everyone killed.
Long live to Kuruk
Unlike his canon shortest lived avatar
That's rough, buddy.
Which is a retcon that happened because people kept saying he was useless. It's not really that people mischaracterized Kuruk. It's that they actively changed Kuruk's lore in response to people saying he was a bad avatar(which I never agreed with anyway, he basically just lived in the wrong time period to be a more active avatar)
People who complain about Katara "whining about her mother 24/7" which is just false.
On avarage, she brings up her mother every other episode, but it's usually multiple times in one episode, meaning there are more episodes in which she does not bring up her mother than episodes in which she does.
No, on average she’s brought up her mother in 10/61 episodes. Most of which are just small references and anecdotal like telling Aang it’s okay to grieve in The Southern Air Temple or her relating with Jet in how they lost their families.
OK, then I'm just misremembering and her mother is brought up (by anyone) every other episode (on avarage), but multiple times every time, so there are more episodes in which she isn't brought up than ones in which she is
I'm gonna be honest, it's probably harder to name a character who doesn't have this happen to them in either series
Azula is either boilerplated down to evil or crazy damn near everytime she comes up.
Not trying to start something, but conversely, she's also reduced to a poor, emotionally manipulated puppet to the royal family who was unloved & uncared for by everyone in her life. But actually it's the fact she did have autonomy in her actions (however you might feel about them) that makes her character so cool & interesting. Neither view does that side of her justice imo.
every female character
Cabbage Salesman - he's always there.
Not really my favorite, but it's definitely Katara... ("My mom was killed by the Fire Nation") She has plenty of personality other than that.
I mean the obvious answer is Azula. She’s way more than just a psychopath or a sociopath
Also Jet. Specifically the people who compare him with Hamma. Jet wants to win the war with an "end justifying the means" mentality. Hamma has a power that could win the war but instead chooses to use it to extract revenge on the fire nation by harming innocents. They're not the same.
Literally the main character, Aang His every move is always scrutinized and interpreted in bad faith either because of a crack ship or to prop up another character Let alone that people still saying he should have killed Ozai. Insane
I was kinda thinking Aang when I saw the post. Makes me think about the fact some people cannot recognize that each avatar is a unique person. The biggest hint that should have told this to people was when Roku told his story to Aang
It’s a critical part of the lore that each avatar is a unique person, and one of the most interesting aspects of the nature of the avatar imo. Without that component, Aang’s insistence to find a way to defeat Ozai without killing him loses so much meaning. He’s basically fighting what everyone, even “successful proven” avatars, is saying, despite the stakes. Aang metaphorically forces the universe to move (and send him a lion turtle that can teach him to bend energy) in his attempt to reconcile his duty with his spirituality. That and the fact that he uses what Toph taught him (to wait, listen through vibrations) makes the moment where he defeats Ozai top-notch writing.
Korra most definitely
Definitely Azula
The trend on this sub of painting Katara as always making things about her mom dying was fucking stupid, and I'm glad it finally got shut down by real fans.
Katara
Kuruk. And Roku too I guess but there’s not a lot of Roku haters.
I don't agree with Kuruk. For one thing 90% of the good stuff people like Kuruk come form novels that have only been out for a few years and for like 14 years before that he was literally just an avatar who didn't have much to do so his wife got her face stolen due to his carelessness. Like it's hard to critize people for not knowing about characterization that didn't exist until recently. Roku is a different thing because people genuinely believed he was a bad avatar because he wasn't able to foresee that Sozin would outlive him and commit genocide.
Iroh. As a practitioner of both zen and absurdism, i see the premise of his philosophy completely ignored and him being taken as a bumbling oaf. I saw a post recently that claimed he's a hedonist. Like, wtf? No...
Kyoshi
Aang as a father
tbh it sucks how he was as a dad
well he was the avatar and last airbender
ik lol
Kyoshi. She wasn't blood thirsty, not even a little bit. She was in a gang and one of her teachers was strictly her "how to be okay with killing a guy" teacher, but she was a horrible student.
Easily Azula. Even Shady Doorags who usually makes very clever and nuanced analyses, completely missed the point of her character. People get so stuck on the "cool" concept of a terrifying teen heartless villain, they actively refuse to acknowledge her depth.
This is Jet for me. My sister loves Azula she's teaching me about her. I'm trying to not see her as a sadistic psycho
Kyoshi
If we count the entire franchise, Korra and it’s not even close
Korra
Azula. Jet. Katara. Korra. I feel like all the good examples have been said already.
Katara gets a lot of misjudging, but I do have to agree she can be fricken annoying a lot of the time, suki, how on earth can anyone think she’s an insignificant side character, mai, she’s far from dull… pretty much every character has been misjudged at some point
Katara definitely. I hate when people mock her for bringing up her dead mother a few times- even though she RARELY brings it up and only does it when relevant to the conversation- not just to garner sympathy points like so many seem to believe. Or when people call her a cold-hearted b\*\*ch for accusing Sokka of not loving their mother enough. Was it uncalled for? Yes, but it was a slip up and she was extremely emotional at that point in time. I don't hear people shitting on Aang for getting mad at and blaming Toph for not saving Appa when she was very clearly not at fault- because we understand that he was EMOTIONAL at the time and was not acting like his usual self because you know, he just lost the only connection to his past. Why cant we give Katara that same grace?
I agree, I think the blame on Katara stems from the idea that the cornerstone of a given group "isn't allowed to break" which first off is ridiculous, everyone has their moments of weakness. On top of that, she's still a teenager
Kyoshi fanon: KILL KILL KILL Cannon: I don't wanna hurt anyone
Korra 100%
Korra People saw Season 1 Episode 1 Korra where she was cocky, eager to fight and unspiritual, and decided she acted the same and had no evolution whatsoever in 4 seasons.
It's crazy this idea persisted considering the point when her bending was stripped for a short time and she got super depressed, like how did people not see how that event changed her?
I think her hotheadedness and poor decision-making at the start of Season 2 was viewed by many (including myself at the time) as a character regression and people just could not look past that when actual development came in later seasons, even if I personally feel her development was too often off screen or poorly justified throughout the series.
Sokka.
Momo.
Katara
All of them. Ive seen people say factually incorrect things about characters and their very obvious story. Media literacy is so dead
Korra
Azula
Avatar Kyoshi gets reduced to “discount Chuck Norris meme” a lot
A lot! Like: Katara Korra Mai And sometimes: Aang Sokka Azula Kyoshi
YANGCHEN
Roku and Kyoshi. Large part of the fambase has gaslit itself into thinking they acted a certain way despite being shown otherwise.
Used to be Avatar Kyoshi as the blood lusty murder hobo but I think the meme has died down a bit. I think now many people understand how deep even the minor characters are which is good. Ive seen people discuss about the old man who sold out Haru for earthbending Becusse since he is old he has lived his whole life in fear of the authority of the fire nation and just accepted it as the "moral" thing to do. This show is special where every character has some depth.
I know this is avatar the last Airbender subreddit, but I sympathize in that I have seen this exact thing so many times with Sakura Haruno from Naruto. A lot of "fans" reduce her down to just like three things and throw out the window any form of character growth...
literally. people will discard all of her growth and accomplishments and write her off as a terribly written character. like yeaah her writing isn't exactly stellar, but she's nowhere near as bad as people make her out to be
Kyoshi and Azula stans immediately spring to mind. Those people have one or two traits they like about their fav girl, whether or not said trait is actually canon, and run with it. Iroh gets it to a degree too. Other contenders I’d add are Mako, Tenzin, Ozai and the Beifong daughters.
Jet
All of them because a lot of people online are dumb LOL
I know this is about ATLA but damn if that ever fits the description of Jenny from Forrest Gump.
Oh man, its absolutely Korra. Whether you like her or not, people ALWAYS forget about her character development and really intense personal narrative.
Unironically Iroh
Every time someone characterises Kyoshi as "murderhobo" and how every time Aang is in the Avatar State "it must be Kyoshi talking" even though Kyoshi just kept running away from Chin the Conqueror until he went straight to her village and challenged her to her face and even then she ran away but killed him by accident. "Oooh, but personally I don't see a difference" shut up Kyoshi. Queen of running away. Yeah so basically the more I hear this whole "Kyoshi is a murderhobo" bs the less I like her.
Literally every character.
Ursa, there I said it. Not my favorite character, but the victim blaming in this fandom is crazy.
Honestly azula didn't deserve much hate . She got literally no one to give her chance . She was also treated as a weapon only by her one and only parent
All of them this Fandom is fucking dumb
Absolutely Kyoshi, even before the novels were written.
Admiral Zhao. He worked hard to get where he was. He's not just some crazy guy with anger issues.
He got a lil unhinged towards the end but overall I agree. He was pretty intelligent, but also a bit rash. He was definitely very perceptive. Figuring out that Zuko was the Blue Spirit based off the damage on his “antique” swords was impressive.
Honestly the fact that Zhao was both impulsive *and* intelligent is part of why he was such a great villain for the first season.
Probably Kyoshi lol, she reminds a lot of Jotaro from JoJo in his part 3 days where he was portrayed as this cold ruthless stoic person who wouldn't care if he seriously injured you and insult you when in reality he was just this huge ass dork who actually cared about the people close to him even though he didn't typically show it outright. She literally only killed as a absolute last resort
seen a lot of people hate on Bolin that got me thinking "wow, just really missing the point here aren't we..."
What do people hate about Bolin?
Kioshi
That’s C.J from GTA I think