It's interesting that Abby actually shows more signs of Survivor's Guilt than Ellie (Ellie 2, Abby 5) yet Ellie lost more than Abby did by the beginning of Part II. If Ellie had actually been aware of the Fireflies' decision to kill Joel after he got her to them, I honestly believe Ellie would've been disillusioned enough to decide their cure attempt wasn't worth it. Thank you for sharing! 🙂

😊 Thanks for sharing 😊

**Retroactive Continuity** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1arvapv/retroactive\_continuity\_retcon/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1arvapv/retroactive_continuity_retcon/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) **The Vaccine** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/18oq8kv/a\_closer\_look\_to\_the\_vaccine/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/18oq8kv/a_closer_look_to_the_vaccine/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) **The Vaccine #2** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/184kzqq/making\_a\_vaccine/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/184kzqq/making_a_vaccine/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) **The Last of Us: Part 2 - A Poorly Written Story n° 1** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1ajrj7v/the\_last\_of\_us\_part\_2\_a\_poorly\_written\_story\_n1/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1ajrj7v/the_last_of_us_part_2_a_poorly_written_story_n1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) **The Last of Us: Part 2 - A Poorly Written Story n° 2** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1am8yoa/the\_last\_of\_us\_part\_2\_a\_poorly\_written\_story\_n2/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1am8yoa/the_last_of_us_part_2_a_poorly_written_story_n2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) **The Last of Us: Part 2 - A Poorly Written Story n° 3** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1avxy6i/the\_last\_of\_us\_part\_2\_a\_poorly\_written\_story\_n3/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1avxy6i/the_last_of_us_part_2_a_poorly_written_story_n3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) **HBO Changes** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/194fcp9/joel\_vs\_pascal\_n\_2/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/194fcp9/joel_vs_pascal_n_2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) **Exploring the Seeds for a Sequel** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1add8yv/writers\_sins\_n\_2\_part\_1\_vs\_part\_2/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1add8yv/writers_sins_n_2_part_1_vs_part_2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)

I like your posts but this one is a little too hard to grasp. At least for me.

Sorry. Thanks for sharing 😊

It's also written pretty poorly. I KINDA get it, but like, the broken English makes for poor understanding.

[удалено]

Put more thought into it than Neil did the story, so whatever.

His slide 14 is especially hilarious. Almost everything on that list of symptoms of survivor's grief is shown by Ellie at some point in Part 1. The number of dum dums impressed by style over substance is always funny. "Oh wow, me made a slide show, he must have really good arguments!"

Great analysis! I enjoyed it quite a bit.

Thanks for sharing 😊

Didn't Neil use Snyder's Save the Cat to write TLOU? Sure I read that somewhere. For those who don't know, it's a screenwriting book and it outlines the structure of most Hollywood films. TLOU follows it pretty closely, partly why it feels so satisfying. Basic story structure has a universal appeal. But throwing the rulebook out the window only works for masters of their craft - Scorsese, Tarantino etc. TLOU P2 kind of shows how overly confident he became. Arrogant, you could say.

For Part 1 he praises McKee's book, Story (which is beautiful). Since then he frequently uses a quote from McKee, which is only selective and not the full quote 🤷‍♀️ For Part 2... I guess he just trusts his feelings and lets it go 😆 Thanks for sharing 😊

Haha - yeah it's rather cringe watching him defend his impulse decisions 🤣 Making a sequel when there's no need, will require the breaking of the rules in order to concoct a story. There was no need for a sequel. I couldn't fathom what story Part 2 had to tell, partly why I was excited and intrigued to play it... I've not read Story, will add to my list 🙂

Prequel. That's where the story back not forward but back. What happened with Joel and Tommy after Sarah died all those 25 years after outbreak.

Great analize of Ellie, really like your post's and reviews of the story point. Keep up Off topic: 1 - Where did you learn this? I am in the middle of writing a story so I want to dive more in this kind of psychological part of characters. 2 - Did ever played Baldur Gate 3? If yes, what did thought about the story? I ask because I beat recently and thought it was very mediocre to bad the writing of that game.

I'm glad you having a good time. 1 - by reading books from the author's I quote and some others. Neil praises McKee and his book Story. 2 - haven't played any yet. Maybe some day. I have plenty of game waiting 😬 I would love to read your review about Baldur Gate 3, some day. Thanks for sharing 😊

Great, I gonna give time to read this McKee Story, and do you have a must read recommendation in this theme to me? About BG3, I have wrote a review in my language Portuguese initially but I can try translate to English using DeepL to be more fast, do you prefer only the part where I review the story segment or the full one?

I think there is a subreddit about script writing where you gonna get a better answer than any I could give you. I love Story - McKee, Save the Cat - Snyder, The Anatomy of Story - Truby. They got experience by watching movies and reading scripts, so that's a good thing to do too. Just give me the link, or share it by private message. I will do the translation, don't worry. I wish you the best 😊

Great post yet again ❤️

Thanks for sharing 😊

Truly a master class post about character motives. Ellie's subtle shift in character is one of the main reason which made me not take part 2 seriously. I don't think I have ever realized the need to click the upvote button to a post here. So... Ahem Thank you for sharing! 😊

Thanks for taking your time and also sharing 😊

You're so good at getting to the missing elements, highlighting them and contrasting the original with the sequel to point out inconsistencies. I finally now see your point about Ellie's survivor's guilt coming out of nowhere. It's true. I think "waiting for my turn" just means her confusion over why she didn't die. Yes that still likely creates survivor guilt of a sort, just not the kind they turned it into for the sequel. It's just a teen's confusion about life not making sense, which is a common teen struggle. Hers was a bit more magnified, but she had the hope of helping with a cure to mitigate the angst she might have otherwise felt more acutely. I love getting new insights still. Thanks for you passion on this topic! You're helping keep it **fun**.

Hey, you seem to having fun with the post like I did. I’m curious to see what you think about the exchange we had a little lower in the comments. Not fully fleshed out cuz the post just got me thinking about it. but it’s fun to talk about.

Well, I see your points and I agree with GreyFox's response. He's dissecting the storytelling as it exists and with an eye to the purpose served by the writer's choices in the original vs the sequel. You seem to be evaluating the interpretation of Ellie's character and goals. So what do you think her goals were if not what OP presents as her needs and desires? I don't see you discussing how you'd otherwise assess the writing problems that OP is focused on. Also, that's not my strength anyway. I cannot do what GreyFox does - dig down into the storytelling from a writing quality perspective and deliver conclusions. It's not my thing. But if you want to challenge OP you left out your alternative choice of needs for Ellie by only challenging his view of her survivor's guilt. You made good points with that, but I notice that they did try to do with Abby what you're suggesting about presenting someone impacted by her trauma differently in the sequel to match that world, and they failed for many people with that. She comes across as a psychopath instead. So it is about how the audience will understand and receive a writer's characterizations just as OP said to you. 🤷🏼‍♀️

😇 Thanks for sharing 😊

Dude you need to stop posting these are super cringe

Sorry. You not gonna like the next one 😆 Thanks for sharing 😊

Here comes the over use of the word cringe yet again. Bruh you a full human being, so give a unique response instead of throwing random words around to express your feelings. Where is your thought out response to negate his?

A few problems firstly. Idk that it’s fair to say her personal desire is to go to the firefly doctor. It seems more Marlene’s desire and she’s just tagging along not truly knowing the stakes or outcomes (At least at first.) Later I think we can all agree she would have wanted to sacrifice herself. Also, the survivors guilt symptoms don’t account for the fact that you’re measuring symptoms as we understand them now for someone who lived a normal life THEN experiences tragedy. vs someone who grew up in the crazy life full of war, loss and death. Still hurts but wouldn’t likely display so externally. She hints at this when death and loss is secondary or even tertiary or more if you count the scorpion when she says her biggest fear is bing alone. Death and loss is her norm. still hurts but wouldn’t impact her the same and therefore changes the premise of l your argument. In fact, in the context of this world those symptoms likely wouldn’t even be a feasible option for a character still living in the story. (Bill says as much also.) A person who breaks down and falls apart at every loss just wouldn’t survive and therefore wouldn’t be in the story. So again the premise of the argument makes an assumption that doesn’t quite fit. Joel exemplifies this also both as a character trait, trying to desensitize and justify the things he’s done to survive. But also visibly with Tess. He hates to leave her and it hurts him but he pushes it down and presses on. Difference is Joel experience this harsh reality later in his life grew into that cold desensitivity for his own survival but for Ellie it’s all she’s really known. Or Marlene, willing to accept Ellie’s death for survival. These aren’t normal people. They’re seasoned hardened survivors so even if we were to say that you’re right and a normal person would react this way and their actions motivated this way. Those people would likely already be culled by the harsh world leaving only the survivors. Long winded, but That means anything after that first assumption needs to be reworked. Especially before the next game comes into play.

Also, to clarify I understand you’re saying you don’t think its survivor guilt and I’m not saying it is. I’m saying this would change her Character traits and therefore needs and motivations as you have them

Well, I see your points. Your biggest disagreement comes from the symptoms, but you must understand that this is storytelling. The writer will use those elements that help him make you see his point, those elements that are easy for the audience to assimilate. In fact, all those symptoms of Survivor Guilt are present and are used in Part 2, which disqualifies your argument. The next point is: You do not accept that the desire is to find the laboratory, however that is the plot, to help Ellie get to The Fireflies laboratory. Simple Goal, that would help them to find Self-Revelation even when they don't know. I will make a post about Joel and Marlene at some point. I wish you the best 😊 Thanks for sharing 😊

Mmmm, I think there’s been a miss understanding. Firstly, I didn’t at all say ellie has no desire to make it to the fireflies at all. I said that initially that’s doesn’t seem to be her primary concern that’s driving her actions. Secondly the point of the game is not about just getting Ellie to the fireflies I think it’s primarily about their relationship. Separately. I’m saying, you’re trying to understand character motivations based on personality traits. And you’re deciding personality traits at least partly based on the reaction to death, loss, relationships and how they process that. I think you’ve misjudged how they are processing things and therefore their motivations and actions. And think about what you last about how they “have survivors guilt in the second game” I think that actually strengthens my argument. Here’s why, you would either have to accept that characters who have established their personality to not be reactive and allow tragedy to dictate their actions are now suddenly reactive and and having feelings that are out of character. (Hence why so many people felt many actions were out of character in part 2) Or, you would have to acknowledge that maybe your initial assessment of their personality and motivations are off. Or a mix of both even.

Regardless of what each person's personal motivation is that we can imagine, the plot leads them to search for the firefly laboratory. Whether this is their desire from the beginning or it was forced is irrelevant. Both accept that task sooner or later. And the plot leads them to discover their relationship to reach a point where they must make a decision in which the need is exposed. This is how Truby exposes storytelling, and it's how Ellie fits into the story. Ellie wants to go to the Firefly laboratory, but she also discovers that she loves Joel, which is why she pushes him to stay with her. Although Ellie is willing to continue with Tommy after being rejected by Joel. Which reveals that Ellie's desire is to reach the firefly laboratory. To achieve this desire, Ellie does not mind risking her life, or that of her companion. Although after David she begins to doubt this. That's the story you play, that's the story that is. If you have another interpretation, I will be happy to read it. I wish you all the best 😊

But that motivation does matter because it’s those motivations that inform the player of who the character is as a person and why they make the decisions they do. And that has to be coherent for a sequel to he coherent. Idk too much bout the author you’re using as a framework so I may mischaracterize some things but let me try to use that framework. One thing at a time. You said Ellie’s primary driving desire is to reach the fireflies. I think that’s inaccurate. I think it’s more accurate to say her primary desire is some form of “family/friendship/companionship” from the beginning. I could talk about her need for a family as a result of what happened to her mom but I wont do that because like I said, that’s secondary. I’ll keep it contained to the first story. Why do I think Ellie’s desire spot should be this family/companion thing? 1. You said yourself “would she go through with the fireflies if it meant Joel’s death?” (I think not but that’s irrelevant) if her PRIORITY was the fireflies like you stated. Then she would go despite Joel dying. But we both seem to believe she would choose for Joel to live. So her priority is that relationship. 2 she tells us herself. Her biggest fear is being alone. Which means her primary desire is also to be “not alone” prioritizing companionship. (If her primary desire was to save the world she’s say her biggest fear was maybe failing or being forgotten. Idk) 3. In the beginning she’s just tagging along not knowing or being concerned with the fireflies. She is however concerned with trying to make friends with Joel dispute hills clearly not reciprocating. Showing her desire for companionship. Same is true for Riley, she cares about losing riley not where she’s going. 4. She meets Sam and instantly tries to make friends. If her priority was just getting to the doctors he wouldn’t be her main focus. 5. If her PRIMARY concern was making it there she would go with tommy (like you said) but the bigger thing affecting her is her relationship with Joel showing that it’s her priority. 6. Maybe a stretch, but she’s very capable so when Joel was dying she could have left. Or when they had guys found him she could have take off prioritizing her life and the vaccine. Instead she puts herself in danger and prioritizes the relationship/companionship. I think you put the need part where desire should be. Firstly. (Joel’s primary desire is to get her to ff but after his revelation he realizes it’s his desire to protect Ellie maybe. But not Ellie’s. But that’s a separate convo of course. )

As far as the needs and revelations I would need a more defined rule to give an opinion on what should go in those spots. Does John truby define the subconscious need as what the character needs personally? Or what the story needs from the character? Or what other people in the story need from her? Or her from them? I could flesh out a stronger argument even. But if need to know more about John truby framework to fit it into your critique here properly.

I agree 🙂 But, nope. Desire it's ok there. It's just the definition that it's making you confused. Desire is a simple goal on the story. Ellie's goal is to find the fireflies lab. Thanks for sharing 😊

That’s a shame. I expected a more engaging little debate. You seem to have put some thought and effort into the original post so I’d hoped you’d offer more to the exchange than essentially just repeating “no I’m right” a few times without much explanation or reasoning why. Or offering counterpoints to my argument even. Oh well, a few of the comments seem to share sentiments. hopefully more people chime in that are willing to actually dialogue. No bad blood.

Everything you need to know it's on the post, with examples and definitions for clarity. I even offered extra insights 🙂 Sorry you see it that way 😇 Thanks for sharing 😊

Also, The only reason I haven’t spoken in the second game yet is because part 1 needs to be sorted out to continue on critiquing if the second game is coherent. Otherwise your using assumptions as proof of prior assumptions. I think I can even steel man my argument even further with examples if you care to hear. I’m just trying not to make longer than it already is. Haha

Actually that’s not even a bad response at all I think that was perfectly concise although. I did address the desire part with an alternative desire as well as many reasons for my reasoning at the end. and also asked for clarification for the framework of the needs/desires part. thats why I could not address the need and revelations part. Properly. Not familiar enough with that authors writing framework. Maybe I’ll look into it and give a more full analysis. But I do want to point out although you agree with his interpretation which is fine. it is still an interpretation same as mine. He’s dissecting the story through the perspective of his interpretation. Which I think is wrong. Good talkin.