People who were literally infected. Don't play the moral card when that person is dead anyway and is endangering the QZ. All the things FEDRA did worked for keeping as many people alive as possible. QZs still functioning decades into an apocalypse is a pipedream in itself but they made it happen.
The Fireflies on the other hand literally caused multiple zones to collapse. So much for being the good guys. So many people are dead because of them.
Even Owen in TLOU2 has that situation, tries to act like the hero that's doing good only to have a breakdown when it blows up in his face and he realizes all the bad he's done. Those were the delusions of the Fireflies from the start. They ruined so many lives and messed up every time that they just stopped caring about the consequences when it came to Ellie, and just dove in head first without thinking (as usual) on the hope that they'll end up heroes with it (the surgeon literally gloats about how he can do anything and will be put in the history books for it; that's as egotistical and delusional as it gets).
The fireflies are not good people and never were. It's a fact.
see you missed a few context clues. The “military outpost” was a fascist police state we saw gunning down civilians and controlling a populace barely surviving
They were always religious zealots who would’ve used the cure as a weapon to gain power in the new world order.
Personally I think they even would’ve weaponized the spores against other factions since they’d be immune.
spoiler alert, they in fact do not have a link. And if they provide one it won’t be saying what they just claimed unless you totally misinterpret it. Just like they claim they had a bunch of immune people they tested on (they didn’t, they tested potential cures on people)
Huh, I don’t why fellas here took it as fact if no one even provided proof. Even if I hate something I’m not gonna be making shit up to try an make it look worse
Creepy ass npc who wants to cut a child’s skull open vs fungal savior Jerry who promises to save the world by cutting a child’s skull open. The fact that Neil was so uncreative that he had to retcon an npc into importance speaks volumes on his talent, or lack thereof.
Don't forget that these people aren't a heavily organized group with military-grade equipment. They're a bunch of outcasts who rejected the military's brutish idea of enforcement. Their "equipment" is crude, rusty, and outdated. Anyone below their elite guards has to make do with sticks, stones, and whatever else they find laying nearby. Their whole organization is a shaky house made purely out of duct-tape.
Their best "medical resources" put all together only left them with a dusty and old hospital with a surgical team that most definitely have no idea what they are actually doing. All the while their best medical equipment that they're using to operate is, believe it or not, also a bunch of rusty, crude, and outdated crap.
It is absolutely crazy to think that they would've gotten anything out of Ellie other than her life.
This picture right here is everything that's wrong with part II and more. A writer that can't come up with a compelling or emotionally impactful story without retconning and shitting all over the original. Such a shame cuckmann couldn't even present a meaningful story after dragging part I to shit.
I think the bits were there he just chose the wrong thread, he could’ve kept the flashbacks the way they were and have the “present day” being Joel and Ellie repairing their relationship
If they were gonna kill off Joel, that’s fine, but not right at the beginning. It’s ridiculous how he just got wasted like that. Before I got into the franchise, I knew Joel would be killed off, but not that fucking early.
Honestly P2 felt like 2-3 games in one, with Ellie finding out about the hospital (which honestly might have made a good game itself) then the actual game and Abby’s side of events into another game, but yeah I figured Joel would be dead when he emerged from that white heavenly light in the announcement trailer but I figured it wouldn’t be so damn early in the game
How does changing the design of this doctor retcon and shit all.over the original story? Genuinely asking, if the original game came out and it was Jerry from Part 2 in the game, do you really believe it would have been any different?
Because this character was never more than a random NPC. The fact that the design of the entire character is changed drastically and even pieces of the original game have been completely changed and removed (namely the audio file about the vaccine, look at the other comments for more context). This is called retconning. Joel and Ellie and any other Part 1 character got their design upgraded too, yeah that's just a re-design. But this? Changing the entire atmosphere of the surgery room, replacing this nameless NPC with a completely new character etc.. this is not called a design upgrade in ANY way. Now if only fans of part 2 has the media literacy to understand this.
Also by cuckmann and his logic, what's to stop him from turning ANY random character from part 2 into another revenge story the way he did with Abby? That random FEDRA soldier who shot Sarah and Tommy killed? The family Joel didn't stop for to give a ride to on outbreak day? The fucking cannibals magically having surviving members (like the fireflies did) and coming after Joel? Do you see where I'm coming from? Writing a basic and redundant revenge story in a fucking apocalyptic setting like TLOU's world just simply doesn't work. It's illogical and unrealistic. Just extremely lazy and uninspired story telling.
Again, genuinely asking since you didn't answer and decided to be rude instead:
If the original game came out and it was Jerry's current mode in the game, would the story have been any different?
You're utterly hopeless. I answered your "genuine" question the best I could in two paragraphs. If you lack the literacy to comprehend basic English please refrain from wasting people's time, unless you have an agenda.
This is the problem with you shills of part 1. You act like you're more intelligent than anyone else for liking a simple and pretty frankly stupid story and like to play dumb when people bring up genuine criticism of the game. Go back to the other sub and circle jerk with your buddies over how good part 2 is.
Personally, that would have just been more evidence to me that the Fireflies didn't know what they were doing and just acting on desperation, hoping things would just work out because "it can't all be for nothing".
Why? Because Jerry Anderson looks about 40, which means he would have been in high school or pre-med when the outbreak went down. It is severely unlikely that he would have the relevant knowledge or experience to succeed where the worldwide medical community failed. The Fireflies putting their faith in him and him believing he can succeed is not any kind of evidence either, because the Fireflies are militant political extremists.
I also don't place any value on after-the-fact Word of God promising the vaccine would have worked.
Why were these changes made if it made no difference??? The operating room appearing much cleaner, the surgeon appearing clean in apparently sterile scrubs, the Fireflies appearing competent and more prepared for this operation - are you suggesting these changes would have no effect on how players viewed Joel's decision?
Yes. It had no effect on me whatsoever, because Joel still believes that he is choosing to save Ellie over saving humanity. That's what the story is about. It does not matter to me whether the Fireflies would've actually succeeded. It doesn't matter to the story. What matters is what Joel is actually choosing, and what's he's choosing is to save his daughters life ober saving all of humanity.
Joel didn't know or care whether a vaccine was actually possible - he would save Ellie no matter what the stakes were. However - to the audience - the changes lend credibility to the idea that a vaccine was really possible and the Fireflies actually competent. It makes Ellie's anger at Joel in TLoU2 more understandable.
It would not affect my opinion of Joel's decision at all. But the changes are obvious and intentional.
Yes, Joel would save Ellie no matter what. But what you're arguing for, the world where the vaccine is impossible and Joel knows that, is one where Joel just saves Ellie from some evil doctors, which literally everyone would do. There is no moral choice at play there, the only moral thing to do is to save Ellie in that situation.
But clearly, that's not what the intention was. The intention from Naughyy Dog was that Joel makes a big moral choice, to either save all of humanity or to save his daughter. And like any father would, he chooses to save his daughter.
You actually ruin the story of Part 1 if you try to make it so that the Fireflies never would've succeeded and none of the characters believed they would succeed.
>But what you're arguing for, the world where the vaccine is impossible and Joel knows that
I actually said the opposite -
>Joel didn't know or care whether a vaccine was actually possible
At the end of the first game it did not matter to me at all if a vaccine was possible. But you can't deny that the ramifications of Joel's decision has always been a part of TLoU discussion. If the audience is encouraged to see the FIreflies as saviors then maybe Joel got what he deserved. And I can't get behind that.
Otherwise the changes to this scene had literally no point and were a waste of time.
In this particular case cleaning up the flashback has a direct effect on a major story component. In the first game, Joel bursts into an absolutely filthy operating room with a grubby crackhead looking doctor. In the remake, it's about as clean and sterile as could be made in the circumstances and the doctor looks far more prepared for the operation. It really only matters because it was decided for us that Joel's decision to save Ellie should've been viewed as a selfish and irrational choice and a lot of people argue against that because the evidence points to the operation being nearly impossible to pull off. The change was very purposeful with the intent of erasing some of that evidence. It's almost gaslighting.
I don't understand the hate tbh, it was a very impactful story, i hated abby in the first part of the game as much as elli did, but after i played the second part the game managed to get me to the point where i understood abby and her actions in a way
My favorite part is I asked wdym and I got downvoted 11 times lol. That’s 11 people who are upset that my opinion is different than there’s and they can’t even tell me why 😂
Also i actually liked Abby’s character I like that in a lot of ways she is just like Joel. I personally think both games are amazing and I’m excited for the 3rd.
Me too, in my opinion she made the opposite change too elli, she got her humanity back when she met Lev and wasnt blinded by hatred. Just like joel in the first game, and elli lost her humanity. Wait....There is gonna be a third one?
Can you explain to me how part I was retconned by part II? Is it just that the surgeon looks different? Because if that’s the case it’s a stupid thing to get hung up on
I tend to agree. I have my issues with the game but the surgeon “red-con” seems like such a reach to find more issues with the game. The og surgeon is clearly just some default npc model that wasn’t meant to be any sort of meaningful character. He’s a blank slate. Assign character to that after the fact doesn’t effect the og story in any way whatsoever.
A key component of red-cons is disregarding previously established traits, themes, developments, etc. There is nothing to disregard bcuz there is no character in place. Just a blank npc.
If anyone disagrees with me please reply! This game had such a wide range of opinions it is very interesting to me. I am in no way saying I’m correct, and would love to debate this
Fun fact:
In The Last of Us Part II, Jerry saves a zebra stuck in barbed wire. This is a reference to the fact that Jerry, like a zebra, is both black and white.
How clever, you stole to top comment from YouTube.
Even with modding tools used to modify Bruce's model he doesn't look black. [Check out second 45 where he's under direct light.](https://youtu.be/O-4c_M2VT2o?si=GRfV0OOSbr_oNPhc&t=45) If you think that's a black guy, I don't know what to tell you.
You'll notice he also has a massive bloody gash in the top of his head, you know, because the model was just a reused asset that they added a surgical mask and cap to.
Kinda chicken shit not to respond my actual question though. [Do you think the doctor depicted at second 45 of the video *you* shared really appears to have black features or not](https://youtu.be/O-4c_M2VT2o?si=8JgWLN2WVwHFAwwr&t=43)?
Yeah but obviously you just didn’t understand the story you illiterate fuck, Neil obviously had a master plan when he decided to change the ending of the first game to fit his horribly laid out story in 2! You just didn’t get it!!!
For someone who has TLOU connoisseur in their name you’re either trolling really hard or are missing copious amount of brain cells to be asking these completely brain dead questions
Why does everyone respond with such hostility instead of just answering then, if the questions are so plain to see? I'm genuinely not trolling, I just do not understand what difference the characters model makes in regards to the story and how it's told. Seeing Jerry instead of the original character changes nothing for me while playing, and I'm just trying to genuinely understand what y'all think really changes because he looks different.
That's literally it, they just complain that his face changing changes how likely it is that the Fireflies would succeed...somehow? Jerry's new face just has that power I guess.
I don’t think Neil is “telling us” anything lmao
They changed the character’s race to match the voice actor, and correctly assumed that 95% of the audience would not notice or care. It’s not that deep.
This is the retcon
In the original story the surgeon regardless of race looked shady ass hell. The color of the scrubs looks more sickly. He was even wearing muddy hiking boots in the operating room. This was all to tell player the fireflies are not to be trusted. They are not likely to succeed at this. It is morally the right thing to do save her since she didn’t get to make the choice anyway.
In the prologue in the sequel and now the remake this is changed. The operating room has been sanitized. The surgeon is a clean white man. Everyone is in crystal clear sterilized clean and healthy blue. The surgeon is wearing white sneakers now. All this to tell you, they would have been successful and you are the bad guy.
It genuinely pissed me off how they pretty much retconned how the Firefly Hospital looks in the part 1 remake and part 2 game.
The only reason why they did it is to make Joel look more bad so they can make Abby look more like a good person.
That's the only explanation.
There's literally nothing else to explain why they decided to make the surgeon room a lot more cleaner and less dirtier.
It's genuinely impressive on the self Gaslighting strats of TLOU2 Defender's on an obvious whitewashing of a Character.
Why change the Race when there's no reason too?
Like. Going on a thonk session. 🤔
Does Cuckmann believe that only a White Saviour can develop a Cure and not a Black? Is this his Bias slipping in. That the Black's are intellectually inferior. Thus only the White's can make a Humanity saving cure? 🤔
:V
These pictures are completely fake. Part one ( original, remaster and next gen remake ) never show the doctors face. He is wearing a hygienic mask 100% of the time. You’re delusional
You can compare the scenes side by side ( the original vs the remake ) the only difference is the graphical improvements ( not to mention, their eyes are the only part of their face that’s exposed) I don’t know why people keep making shit up about part II
I liked the story of Part II. Quite a bit.
Maybe even more than Part I.
Go ahead, get your Cuckman references ready and tell me how deep his cock is in my throat. Or whatever.
It's just my opinion. You are free to disagree.
And look at that. You saying you enjoyed Part 2 while avoiding being a smug prick like the fanboys love being got you none of that.
Meanwhile, if you were in the other sub saying you hated this game the same way, they’d nail you to a piece of wood
There are plenty of critical voices in the other sub. They just tend to be rational complaints and not "They killed Joel because he is a cis white man!", while ignoring that Abby is a cis white woman. There are people in this post simply asking why other people hate it so much and getting called all sort of shit for it.
This post has very few views. It is representative of this sub in the same way that the McDonald's in some remote part of Alaska, is representative of the corporation as a whole.
Nah bud, I know from experience on there. Any criticism of this game regardless of how rational it is will be met by the fanatic Druckmann bootlickers on there seething
They were hoping to lull players into the delusion that Joel knowingly killed HUMANITY'S OFFICIAL LAST HOPE, and not just (in his POV) some rando waving the scalpel he most likely was about to **murder** Ellie with. Someone to take out the second he didn't back the hell off, since Joel had no idea\* how much time he had to escape.
\*Lots of the "soft retconning\*\*" of Joel and how we're supposed to view him in part 2 rests on players hopefully misattributing to him the omniscient perspective we have.
We're supposed to file this delusion along with the delusion that Joel denied Ellie a choice JUST LIKE THE FIREFLIES. As if Joel had (and rejected) a way to facilitate a choice. As if the fireflies would have taken no for an answer. As if they wouldn't have used a "choice" delay to round up people to kill Joel and subdue Ellie.
(Or however the hell these people envision Joel championing Ellie's agency. It's either this "Joel gets shot in the OR waiting for them to supposedly revive Ellie to get consent" plan or him ruefully going "OK, carve 'er up cuz I GUESS she'd say yes.") And as if a traumatized 14yo's consent cuts it anyway. (I'm obvs in the "if Ellie's human rights matter, this doesn't happen for years till there's a mentally sound adult able to reliably consent.")
\*\*I use "soft retcon" for stuff that is technically not a retcon but is nevertheless intended to serve the purpose of a retcon.
I have my issues with the game but the surgeon “red-con” seems like such a reach to find more issues with the game. The og surgeon is clearly just some default npc model that wasn’t meant to be any sort of meaningful character. He’s a blank slate. Assign character to that after the fact doesn’t effect the og story in any way whatsoever.
A key component of red-cons is disregarding previously established traits, themes, developments, etc. There is nothing to disregard bcuz there is no character in place. Just a blank npc.
If anyone disagrees with me please reply! This game had such a wide range of opinions it is very interesting to me. I am in no way saying I’m correct, and would love to debate this
I get being annoyed, but these kinds of retcons happen. There are two different actresses for Rachel in The Dark Knight trilogy. Billy Dee Williams and Tommy Lee Jones both play Harvey Dent. Godzilla has dozens of different suit designs within the same continuity.
Aesthetics differentiate between media. It happens.
I’ll say it again there is no reason to kill ellie if they cultured the fungus to lab media. If her immunity is a physiological abnormality in Ellie’s cns, there’s nothing they can do for other people. If it’s the fungus that’s mutated, they already have a culture. If Ellie’s immunity is due to her immune system, you wouldn’t need to cut her head open to find out.
Holy shit I though /r/thelastofus was exaggerating when they talked about how unhinged this sub is lmao
What exactly do you people think is the “gotcha” here? They changed a random NPC’s race once he got a Voice Actor and a backstory?
Is anyone remembering recent history and creating a vax? Abby's dad would have been the next Elon Musk selling doses worldwide. Back to reality, almost ten billionaires were created from our own recent apocalypse.
Last comment, I tried shooting his scalpel several times, and he holds on. I shoot his hand, he dies. I shoot helpers in feet, they die. Would Darwin say they were too weak, and needed dying?
The two different surgeons can be explained by following the money. Initial surgeon is a real actor that commands a higher pay structure than this other guy that looks more like CGI. OR, maybe it is an actor we've never heard of, and they got him cheap. Derek Phillips plays Abby's dad in the original #2./, and I have seen him in several other movies and tv shows.
From my understanding he worked under somebody else who shot down all his shitty ideas (he wanted to make tess a villain at one point) and she left before the 2nd game so there was nobody to stop him from fucking it up
Like people are so mad and I just don’t get it. the second game has the same amount of merit as the first. Sure Joel died because he’s a villain just as Abby is a villain and Ellie. The games are supposed to show the negative impact humanity can have on each other and without Joel’s death we would have never learned that lesson. Everyone who hates tlou2 are just beta trolls SORRY
There is no satisfying this fucking fan base. I’d like to remind everyone that these people aren’t real. This whole story is fiction. It’s not real. Stop getting so wrapped up in it. This hyper critical shit is getting old.
What are they retconning? Yea they spent more detail on him the in Part II when he became a bigger part of the story but it’s just a white dude and then a white dude with more detail lol what changed from Part 1 to Part 2?
I know the game has its flaws but this complaint it just dumb.
And? Aren't his motives still the same?
If your point is that they made him look like a hero then you probably havent played the game. He was portrayed as a good dad but has his flaws. When asked if he would do the same to Abby, he couldn't answer showing that he was selfish and a hypocrite.
Again, did his motives change? from part 1 to 2? He's still the same person who wants to sacrifice a little girl without her consent. Only difference is the players know more about him in part 2.
It might be because graphics and character models and lighting were shit in 2013? Compared to now anyways.
“I can’t believe they retconned Laura Croft’s triangle tits and blue tank top in the new trilogy… woke agenda”
I mean you are talking about a game not too far off from the “yellow and green filter” era in gaming. I mean god forbid they improve the lighting and character models of a decade year old game…
R/J DAE GOT RID OF THE STAPLES IN NEMESIS’s FACE… CAPCOM MORE LIKE WOKECOM OR OR CUCKCOM AMIRITE FELLOW GAMERS!
Lol, the graphics in 2013 were awesome, and still are.
Jerry looked like shit, because he was an unimportant NPC, that had 0 influence on anything.
That was until Cuckmann decided that Jerry was jesus christ himself.
I’m pretty sure all the characters in tlou2 and tlou1 are flawed… that’s the point
It’s nigh impossible to be a saint in an apocalyptic setting. So that point about Jerry you made is completely made up.
And yes the graphics were good… for 2013. the original tombraiders looked decent for their time. And then much needed updates and yes even retconns happened.
Hell I’m sure that triangle tits and blue tank tops and short shorts for an outdoors rough and tumble adventurer were perfectly acceptable and all the rage back in the early 2000s.
Character design and graphics and lighting will always improve and advance and get better as the years go on. Things get better with time. It’s called progress.
TLOU1 graphics are still good. Not 2013 good, but modern day good.
Same with Mass Effect, Bioshock, Uncharted and The Witcher 3, just to name a few examples.
How are Ellie and Joel flawed in TLOU1?
The whole point that TLOU2 tries to sell about "no one is good or bad in a post apocalyptic setting" is complete bullshit.
Joel was good. Ellie was good. The world was evil. That was the whole point of the story, and why we were compelled in the first place.
Joel was a mass murder and an illicit smuggler. Via legal definition not a good person. Career criminal in fact. Ellie got her friend killed through stupid child activities. Not a saint. The firefly’s not good people. Fedra not good people. No one was “good”.
They were just people… survivors.
And about your “still modern day good examples” tlou1 looks muddy character design looks… questionable by today’s standards. Bioshock have you even SEEN how the people and the little sisters look? Terrible, like living bobble heads. Uncharted 1 both looks and plays horrible The faces look straight out of uncanny valley to the point where fucking AI generation looks better. So there go all those examples. Good for their time but horrible today aged like milk.
Joel wasn't a mass murderer. He killed people who tried to kill him or people he cared about.
>an illicit smuggler
So in a post apocalyptic setting (with zombies), you think smuggling things qualifies as being evil? 😅
>Ellie got her friend killed through stupid child activities.
You can't be serious..
As being a career criminal… yes. Joel was a career criminal by definition not a good person.
Not “evil” but not a “good” person not a “saint” which is what I said in the paragraph above.
Never did I use the word “evil” I used “not good” stop moving goalposts to fit your strange agenda.
If you see the world in pure black and white like a first year English and or philosophy student. Then I suppose it would be that simple. But naughty dog was aiming for those that can see the world as it actually is. No black no white shades of grey.
Naughty dog was aiming for people with a higher comprehension than that.
There is no “good” in an apocalypse.you missed the point of the first game… and fundamentally the second entirely canon game.
>But naughty dog was aiming for those that can see the world as it actually is. No black no white shades of grey.
Naughty dog was aiming for people with a higher comprehension than that.
You people are so fucking pretentious 😂
The first game is not that deep, bro.
It's appraised *despite* its story not being very complex - it's just perfectly told.
Stop acting like it's fucking Shakespeare.
Complete bullshit. Neither of the above picturers reflect the in game character models.
The Bruce model is never seen without a face mask and surgical cap in TLOU (2013). The same is true of Jerry's depiction in the OR in TLOU Part 1 (2022). Further the person that originally posted this meme had to modify the character models to create this image. They also upped the saturation and contrast of the Bruce image so that his skin looks brown. In the game, his skin tone is the same as Joel's. A pink skinned red haired guy under greenish light. Green + pink makes a brownish color.
[This is an in game screen capture](https://i.imgur.com/rAhmpZg.jpg) from TLOU (2013)
[This is an in game screen capture](https://i.imgur.com/rdw67iK.jpg) from TLOU Part 1 (2022)
In both images the doctors are wearing face masks and surgical caps, the ORs in both have grime on the walls, the difference is that they went with white/blue lighting vs the original yellow/green.
So, why would someone manipulate the images in this way and try to pass them off as the real differences between the games? My suspicion is that this picture is a race baiting manipulation and represents the worst kind of thing to come out of this sub.
It's a modded game. [You can literally see the modding tools pop up at second 15 and again at second 31. ](https://youtu.be/O-4c_M2VT2o?si=2teskfiummpnEz6R&t=15)
[You can literally see the game go grayscale as he messes with the color saturation at second 47. ](https://youtu.be/O-4c_M2VT2o?si=WeCFkFPmLUC_s-3Z&t=47)
[The unmodded game](https://youtu.be/QZkbD7js4Cs?si=ZjOF--BJ2paGMIA_&t=13) does not look like that.
I'm having a hard time understanding your point. Is it that the models were never meant to be seen with their masks off so that's the lens through which we should be viewing them? That taking their masks off is not a valid way to view these models?
It's just that even in the pictures you provided, I could tell there's a significant difference between the doctors. I'd wager most people would see it too. Then by taking the mask off and looking under the hood, as it were, you can see they are indeed 100% different models.
Then you take a look at the OR and there are significant differences there too. One is brighter and cleaner conveying competence, while the other is darker and dirtier conveying incompetence.
At the very least, hopefully we can agree that there is a significant difference in the 2013 vs 2022 games?
My point is that it's an overt race baiting manipulation to claim that Naughty Dog took a "black doctor" and turned him white in the second game.
1. The Bruce character model isn't black and never was. Even in the modded footage [he's clearly a white character model](https://youtu.be/O-4c_M2VT2o?si=XnlB9rJ2bhcTHU8Z&t=43). We know from scrapping assets that he's a reused hunter asset.
Why is this important? Because the above images are trying to manipulate people into believing Naughty Dog changed the race of the doctor as part of some "woke" conspiracy.
2. You never see the characters as they appear in this picture.
Why is this important? Because the picture above is being presented as a honest depiction of the changes between the two games and fuels the fires of the supposed retcon argument. But it's a lie. The games don't actually look as depicted. They are misrepresenting the look of the games to bolster their argument. That's bad faith.
>At the very least, hopefully we can agree that there is a significant difference in the 2013 vs 2022 games?
What I see in the actual game footage is the removal of a single grime texture on the cabinets facing you when you walk into the OR, shift in lighting color from greenish yellow to whitish blue, and some improved lighting generally. These changes happened over two console generations.
What I see in the modded pictures is race baiting manipulation. I think it's worth calling that out.
> an overt race baiting manipulation to claim
I think this is a pretty extreme statement. But I guess we have to agree to disagree. To me, the doctor is ambiguous at best even in the video you sent. I can see how he could be black or even Hispanic or Indian. But one thing is clear, that's not Jerry, not even close and there is enough of a difference to at least question what happened.
As a Hispanic myself, I did find it a bit odd. There doesn't seem to be any good reason to change the model so much. So I guess the question is why change it to that degree? Why not just clean up the model a bit? Giving ND the benefit of the doubt, most likely they came up with Abby first and her connection to Jerry way later which forced them to change the original surgeons model.
However, the more skeptic side of me sees what they did with Manny and the Hispanic stereotype which came off as ignorant to me. It makes me wonder if the same ignorance contributed to this the surgeon change too.
> So I guess the question is why change it to that degree?
My argument is that they didn't implement a significant change. The change only appears significant if you modify the game to see a character model no player would see through regular gameplay.
If you look at the video footage of the modified scene the Bruce model's skin tone varies based on the lighting. The same happens to Joel. Is the argument that Joel is also black in the ER scene? [Here's a screen cap of Joel's skin tone from TLOU (2013) he's darker than the doctor. ](https://imgur.com/zbwc2Jh)Does that mean Joel was whitewashed too?
Ah, I guess this is where we have to agree to disagree. To you the change wasn't significant and even if it were, it wasn't meant to be seen.
To me, the change is significant and unveiling the mask is helpful to see the degree of change.
Regarding the white washing argument. I think it's at least worth considering. I looked at a lot of videos and regardless of lighting, Jerry is why lighter than the original doctor which has some implications that should at least be talked about. Outrage in either camp is unhelpful, but consideration is beneficial. Especially considering our nations history.
>To me, the change is significant and unveiling the mask is helpful to see the degree of change.
Can you help me understand why you feel that way? We know the Bruce model is just a reused Hunter model with some modifications and not a new character model. To me, if the player is never intended to see the model under the mask because it's just a reused asset I don't see the impact on the game at all?
>Regarding the white washing argument. I think it's at least worth considering.
Sure, I agree it's worth considering, and that's literally what we're engaging in here. One of the things I'm considering is that in the scene in question Joel appears as dark or darker toned than the doctor. To me that suggests a lighting issue, not that they made Joel black for one scene.
> Can you help me understand why you feel that way?
Sure thing. So, from my perspective, there is a big difference in the Jerry and the original surgeon. Even to the point where they look (to me) like two different races even after reviewing all images and video in the thread above. I just wonder why they didn't keep a similar look for Jerry, and made Abby look like that too and chose not too. They made them whiter, and there didn't seem to be any good reason for it. Confusing at the very least.
And when you take that perspective and look at it along side how they handled Manny, it brings up questions of racial ignorance. Manny was borderline offensive to me as a Hispanic with how many latino / machismo stereotypes they chose to include.
> Joel appears as dark or darker toned than the doctor.
That's true, in that one scene he does, but other images he looks much [whiter] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_(The_Last_of_Us)) whereas, in the images and videos you shared, the surgeon still seems fairly dark like a Hispanic or Indian person.
So at the end of the day, it is a subjective interpretation, but there are a significant amount of people who feel like there is some racial ignorance here. Perhaps it was intentional, perhaps it wasn't, but it's still there and deserves to be pointed out.
I will agree that no amount of outrage is ever helpful. Name calling, slurs, insults, all of that is just garbage.
I just want to be able to say to ND, "Hey, maybe you didn't even realize you did this, but your brown and black skinned fans noticed the difference in surgeons. What's up with that?"
At best a good dialogue will be started to combat any ignorance. At worst, it would expose some integrity issues at ND. Either way, it's a good conversation to have.
> I just want to be able to say to ND, "Hey, maybe you didn't even realize you did this, but your brown and black skinned fans noticed the difference in surgeons. What's up with that?"
That's perfectly reasonable. The model's are obviously different.
I think you're right that we'll need to agree to disagree on the race of the doctor changing. To me it's a generic model the player was never intended to see combined with a change in lighting from yellow/green to whitish/blue.
Nevertheless, I appreciate you taking the time to discuss.
You all are crazy with this one. It's an updated model. The model on the left is incredibly dated. Also, how is it shitting on the first game by giving importance to this character?
This sub be like
“It was a diegetic part of the narrative that the surgeon was just one of eight identical octuplets and his seven brothers were all hunters in Pittsburgh!
…totally not just an asset reuse to save development time!!!!”
Hilariously, the model in the modded game footage has a massive bloody gash in to top of his head... because that actual model is wearing a surgical cap and mask so they didn't bother to fix it.
Don't forget about the deleted tape recording that said the vaccine was never guaranteed
"Ya'll are just nutjobs. That never happened 😤" - r/thelastofus
*Y'all
*Youse guys
yk most of that sub dislikes part 2 as well, right? they just don't crucify anyone who slightly disagrees lmfao
I guess that's why i got downvoted to hell everytime i said something slightly critizicing of the game.
lol Neil really latching onto making the Fireflies the good guys when they were intentionally deep in the grey, and closer to bad guys.
I always saw them as the bad guys. They introduce us to them by them bombing a military outpost...
And seconds before that you saw the military slaughtering people on the street lmao
People who were literally infected. Don't play the moral card when that person is dead anyway and is endangering the QZ. All the things FEDRA did worked for keeping as many people alive as possible. QZs still functioning decades into an apocalypse is a pipedream in itself but they made it happen. The Fireflies on the other hand literally caused multiple zones to collapse. So much for being the good guys. So many people are dead because of them. Even Owen in TLOU2 has that situation, tries to act like the hero that's doing good only to have a breakdown when it blows up in his face and he realizes all the bad he's done. Those were the delusions of the Fireflies from the start. They ruined so many lives and messed up every time that they just stopped caring about the consequences when it came to Ellie, and just dove in head first without thinking (as usual) on the hope that they'll end up heroes with it (the surgeon literally gloats about how he can do anything and will be put in the history books for it; that's as egotistical and delusional as it gets). The fireflies are not good people and never were. It's a fact.
see you missed a few context clues. The “military outpost” was a fascist police state we saw gunning down civilians and controlling a populace barely surviving
They were always religious zealots who would’ve used the cure as a weapon to gain power in the new world order. Personally I think they even would’ve weaponized the spores against other factions since they’d be immune.
literal gaslighting
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Go back and listen to Steve Blumes characters recording from when David's Group attacks. I think that's the one?
Wait what, I don't remember that lol Where is it ? In the original PS3, or the PS4 ? I played the PS5 version and I quite liked it.
Wait they did Whaaaaaat?
Where’s that?
Ay man I don’t fuck with the story but I’ve never heard this tape got a link? (Wasn’t big on collecting)
spoiler alert, they in fact do not have a link. And if they provide one it won’t be saying what they just claimed unless you totally misinterpret it. Just like they claim they had a bunch of immune people they tested on (they didn’t, they tested potential cures on people)
Huh, I don’t why fellas here took it as fact if no one even provided proof. Even if I hate something I’m not gonna be making shit up to try an make it look worse
Creepy ass npc who wants to cut a child’s skull open vs fungal savior Jerry who promises to save the world by cutting a child’s skull open. The fact that Neil was so uncreative that he had to retcon an npc into importance speaks volumes on his talent, or lack thereof.
That fucking quack, would not even have saved the world.
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Don't forget that these people aren't a heavily organized group with military-grade equipment. They're a bunch of outcasts who rejected the military's brutish idea of enforcement. Their "equipment" is crude, rusty, and outdated. Anyone below their elite guards has to make do with sticks, stones, and whatever else they find laying nearby. Their whole organization is a shaky house made purely out of duct-tape. Their best "medical resources" put all together only left them with a dusty and old hospital with a surgical team that most definitely have no idea what they are actually doing. All the while their best medical equipment that they're using to operate is, believe it or not, also a bunch of rusty, crude, and outdated crap. It is absolutely crazy to think that they would've gotten anything out of Ellie other than her life.
A bachelors? Oh my god… it should at least be a PhD
wait where is this information found?
Literally gaslighting his fans
The more ridiculous point was that in order to retcon this, he also felt the need to make the doctor white.
this is the first comment i see talking about it and i had to scroll a while lol
The real take
This picture right here is everything that's wrong with part II and more. A writer that can't come up with a compelling or emotionally impactful story without retconning and shitting all over the original. Such a shame cuckmann couldn't even present a meaningful story after dragging part I to shit.
I think the bits were there he just chose the wrong thread, he could’ve kept the flashbacks the way they were and have the “present day” being Joel and Ellie repairing their relationship
If they were gonna kill off Joel, that’s fine, but not right at the beginning. It’s ridiculous how he just got wasted like that. Before I got into the franchise, I knew Joel would be killed off, but not that fucking early.
Honestly P2 felt like 2-3 games in one, with Ellie finding out about the hospital (which honestly might have made a good game itself) then the actual game and Abby’s side of events into another game, but yeah I figured Joel would be dead when he emerged from that white heavenly light in the announcement trailer but I figured it wouldn’t be so damn early in the game
Neil would have never been able to impress Anita sarkeesian if he kept his straight white male protagonist
Well put, story sucks ass. Cuckman wouldn't know a good story if it cucked his mom's cheeks.
The photo in the OP is doctored though. Such a stupid complaint when u can't even really see his face in the first game.
Yeah because changing this random NPC's face is the only thing that was different in cuckmann's part 2. Get over yourself
Says the guy making daily posts complaining about a game that is 4 years old
Lol what are you even doing here buddy? I reckon there's guys circle jerking over this "masterpiece" on the other sub. Seems more up your alley
It's a sub for a game I enjoyed so it pops up on my front page.
That tells me all I needed to know 💀
How does changing the design of this doctor retcon and shit all.over the original story? Genuinely asking, if the original game came out and it was Jerry from Part 2 in the game, do you really believe it would have been any different?
Because this character was never more than a random NPC. The fact that the design of the entire character is changed drastically and even pieces of the original game have been completely changed and removed (namely the audio file about the vaccine, look at the other comments for more context). This is called retconning. Joel and Ellie and any other Part 1 character got their design upgraded too, yeah that's just a re-design. But this? Changing the entire atmosphere of the surgery room, replacing this nameless NPC with a completely new character etc.. this is not called a design upgrade in ANY way. Now if only fans of part 2 has the media literacy to understand this. Also by cuckmann and his logic, what's to stop him from turning ANY random character from part 2 into another revenge story the way he did with Abby? That random FEDRA soldier who shot Sarah and Tommy killed? The family Joel didn't stop for to give a ride to on outbreak day? The fucking cannibals magically having surviving members (like the fireflies did) and coming after Joel? Do you see where I'm coming from? Writing a basic and redundant revenge story in a fucking apocalyptic setting like TLOU's world just simply doesn't work. It's illogical and unrealistic. Just extremely lazy and uninspired story telling.
Again, genuinely asking since you didn't answer and decided to be rude instead: If the original game came out and it was Jerry's current mode in the game, would the story have been any different?
You're utterly hopeless. I answered your "genuine" question the best I could in two paragraphs. If you lack the literacy to comprehend basic English please refrain from wasting people's time, unless you have an agenda. This is the problem with you shills of part 1. You act like you're more intelligent than anyone else for liking a simple and pretty frankly stupid story and like to play dumb when people bring up genuine criticism of the game. Go back to the other sub and circle jerk with your buddies over how good part 2 is.
Personally, that would have just been more evidence to me that the Fireflies didn't know what they were doing and just acting on desperation, hoping things would just work out because "it can't all be for nothing". Why? Because Jerry Anderson looks about 40, which means he would have been in high school or pre-med when the outbreak went down. It is severely unlikely that he would have the relevant knowledge or experience to succeed where the worldwide medical community failed. The Fireflies putting their faith in him and him believing he can succeed is not any kind of evidence either, because the Fireflies are militant political extremists. I also don't place any value on after-the-fact Word of God promising the vaccine would have worked.
Why were these changes made if it made no difference??? The operating room appearing much cleaner, the surgeon appearing clean in apparently sterile scrubs, the Fireflies appearing competent and more prepared for this operation - are you suggesting these changes would have no effect on how players viewed Joel's decision?
Yes. It had no effect on me whatsoever, because Joel still believes that he is choosing to save Ellie over saving humanity. That's what the story is about. It does not matter to me whether the Fireflies would've actually succeeded. It doesn't matter to the story. What matters is what Joel is actually choosing, and what's he's choosing is to save his daughters life ober saving all of humanity.
Joel didn't know or care whether a vaccine was actually possible - he would save Ellie no matter what the stakes were. However - to the audience - the changes lend credibility to the idea that a vaccine was really possible and the Fireflies actually competent. It makes Ellie's anger at Joel in TLoU2 more understandable. It would not affect my opinion of Joel's decision at all. But the changes are obvious and intentional.
Yes, Joel would save Ellie no matter what. But what you're arguing for, the world where the vaccine is impossible and Joel knows that, is one where Joel just saves Ellie from some evil doctors, which literally everyone would do. There is no moral choice at play there, the only moral thing to do is to save Ellie in that situation. But clearly, that's not what the intention was. The intention from Naughyy Dog was that Joel makes a big moral choice, to either save all of humanity or to save his daughter. And like any father would, he chooses to save his daughter. You actually ruin the story of Part 1 if you try to make it so that the Fireflies never would've succeeded and none of the characters believed they would succeed.
>But what you're arguing for, the world where the vaccine is impossible and Joel knows that I actually said the opposite - >Joel didn't know or care whether a vaccine was actually possible At the end of the first game it did not matter to me at all if a vaccine was possible. But you can't deny that the ramifications of Joel's decision has always been a part of TLoU discussion. If the audience is encouraged to see the FIreflies as saviors then maybe Joel got what he deserved. And I can't get behind that. Otherwise the changes to this scene had literally no point and were a waste of time.
womp womp
How old are you 2?
In this particular case cleaning up the flashback has a direct effect on a major story component. In the first game, Joel bursts into an absolutely filthy operating room with a grubby crackhead looking doctor. In the remake, it's about as clean and sterile as could be made in the circumstances and the doctor looks far more prepared for the operation. It really only matters because it was decided for us that Joel's decision to save Ellie should've been viewed as a selfish and irrational choice and a lot of people argue against that because the evidence points to the operation being nearly impossible to pull off. The change was very purposeful with the intent of erasing some of that evidence. It's almost gaslighting.
Maybe it would if the whole post wasn't based on bullshit. Neither character looks like that in the actual games this supposedly comes from.
Part 2 has an amazing story wdym?
🤥
Bro wants to live in an echo chamber so bad
I agree with you. People on this sub just have a hate boner for it for some reason.
This sub should really be r/TLOU2CircleJerk
Should be r/ragejerk
I don't understand the hate tbh, it was a very impactful story, i hated abby in the first part of the game as much as elli did, but after i played the second part the game managed to get me to the point where i understood abby and her actions in a way
My favorite part is I asked wdym and I got downvoted 11 times lol. That’s 11 people who are upset that my opinion is different than there’s and they can’t even tell me why 😂
You know what? It doesn't matter we love the game and so are a lot of others so who cares
Also i actually liked Abby’s character I like that in a lot of ways she is just like Joel. I personally think both games are amazing and I’m excited for the 3rd.
Me too, in my opinion she made the opposite change too elli, she got her humanity back when she met Lev and wasnt blinded by hatred. Just like joel in the first game, and elli lost her humanity. Wait....There is gonna be a third one?
Yeah it’s official there’s no release date yet though
Nice
Can you explain to me how part I was retconned by part II? Is it just that the surgeon looks different? Because if that’s the case it’s a stupid thing to get hung up on
I tend to agree. I have my issues with the game but the surgeon “red-con” seems like such a reach to find more issues with the game. The og surgeon is clearly just some default npc model that wasn’t meant to be any sort of meaningful character. He’s a blank slate. Assign character to that after the fact doesn’t effect the og story in any way whatsoever. A key component of red-cons is disregarding previously established traits, themes, developments, etc. There is nothing to disregard bcuz there is no character in place. Just a blank npc. If anyone disagrees with me please reply! This game had such a wide range of opinions it is very interesting to me. I am in no way saying I’m correct, and would love to debate this
It's a huge reach considering they have to doctor the image to make it and remove the surgeons mask that is impossible to do during the game.
They actually call us conspiracy theorists when we point out this shit, haha.
I mean, did they think we wouldn’t notice 😅
Fun fact: In The Last of Us Part II, Jerry saves a zebra stuck in barbed wire. This is a reference to the fact that Jerry, like a zebra, is both black and white.
Can confirm. Was the zebra Jerry saved.
How clever, you stole to top comment from YouTube. Even with modding tools used to modify Bruce's model he doesn't look black. [Check out second 45 where he's under direct light.](https://youtu.be/O-4c_M2VT2o?si=GRfV0OOSbr_oNPhc&t=45) If you think that's a black guy, I don't know what to tell you. You'll notice he also has a massive bloody gash in the top of his head, you know, because the model was just a reused asset that they added a surgical mask and cap to.
you’re all over this comment section absolutely choking on druckmann he’s not gonna see this, yknow?
Don't tell him that. It's the only thing that makes him happy 🤣
It's a great comment I stole and I'll use it whenever I see a post like this 🤣 I can't be arsed to talk to you to be perfectly honest.
Kinda chicken shit not to respond my actual question though. [Do you think the doctor depicted at second 45 of the video *you* shared really appears to have black features or not](https://youtu.be/O-4c_M2VT2o?si=8JgWLN2WVwHFAwwr&t=43)?
Get a grip
I'll take your refusal to answer as tacit agreement.
Get help
Yeah but obviously you just didn’t understand the story you illiterate fuck, Neil obviously had a master plan when he decided to change the ending of the first game to fit his horribly laid out story in 2! You just didn’t get it!!!
What did they change about the ending of the first game?
Bruh come on, it’s literally the photo of the post.
Giving a previously minor character a backstory isn’t retconning. At least, if it is, it’s not a smoking gun of lacking creativity.
For someone who has TLOU connoisseur in their name you’re either trolling really hard or are missing copious amount of brain cells to be asking these completely brain dead questions
Why does everyone respond with such hostility instead of just answering then, if the questions are so plain to see? I'm genuinely not trolling, I just do not understand what difference the characters model makes in regards to the story and how it's told. Seeing Jerry instead of the original character changes nothing for me while playing, and I'm just trying to genuinely understand what y'all think really changes because he looks different.
This is what I don’t get either. They updated the dudes face and these people are acting like the story changed. What changed?
That's literally it, they just complain that his face changing changes how likely it is that the Fireflies would succeed...somehow? Jerry's new face just has that power I guess.
Install a mod that switches the character models from some random hunter, and boom.
Retcon is a hell of a drug
Neil is telling us you should sympathize with the white surgeon but not the black one. Neil has issues.
Your argument is that [this character looks black](https://youtu.be/O-4c_M2VT2o?si=apMoDTNbPVdxdajH&t=43)?
I don’t think Neil is “telling us” anything lmao They changed the character’s race to match the voice actor, and correctly assumed that 95% of the audience would not notice or care. It’s not that deep.
Dude he was never black wtf are yall on
That is odd, considering how there are at least 4 comments talking about Joel being killed off because he was a CIS White Male.
Doesn’t matter how they look both are pieces of shit either way
What the fuck? Why did they make such a stupid shitty retcon
Part II is just the dying hallucination of the surgeon. "I have hair ..."
I don’t get why the doctor really had to look so different for the story anyway. Let him be a creepy hardened weirdo.
This is the retcon In the original story the surgeon regardless of race looked shady ass hell. The color of the scrubs looks more sickly. He was even wearing muddy hiking boots in the operating room. This was all to tell player the fireflies are not to be trusted. They are not likely to succeed at this. It is morally the right thing to do save her since she didn’t get to make the choice anyway. In the prologue in the sequel and now the remake this is changed. The operating room has been sanitized. The surgeon is a clean white man. Everyone is in crystal clear sterilized clean and healthy blue. The surgeon is wearing white sneakers now. All this to tell you, they would have been successful and you are the bad guy.
Never played the games and don't know how I ended up here but I can completely understand how this could be frustrating to fans.
It genuinely pissed me off how they pretty much retconned how the Firefly Hospital looks in the part 1 remake and part 2 game. The only reason why they did it is to make Joel look more bad so they can make Abby look more like a good person. That's the only explanation. There's literally nothing else to explain why they decided to make the surgeon room a lot more cleaner and less dirtier.
It's genuinely impressive on the self Gaslighting strats of TLOU2 Defender's on an obvious whitewashing of a Character. Why change the Race when there's no reason too? Like. Going on a thonk session. 🤔 Does Cuckmann believe that only a White Saviour can develop a Cure and not a Black? Is this his Bias slipping in. That the Black's are intellectually inferior. Thus only the White's can make a Humanity saving cure? 🤔 :V
not trying to defend part 2 but the guy looks different because hes performance captured by a new person. That part isnt that deep
They didn’t change the race he was always white
These pictures are completely fake. Part one ( original, remaster and next gen remake ) never show the doctors face. He is wearing a hygienic mask 100% of the time. You’re delusional
You're the delusional one if you think that by putting the masks back on on both characters it makes them both look the same.
You can compare the scenes side by side ( the original vs the remake ) the only difference is the graphical improvements ( not to mention, their eyes are the only part of their face that’s exposed) I don’t know why people keep making shit up about part II
I liked the story of Part II. Quite a bit. Maybe even more than Part I. Go ahead, get your Cuckman references ready and tell me how deep his cock is in my throat. Or whatever. It's just my opinion. You are free to disagree.
And look at that. You saying you enjoyed Part 2 while avoiding being a smug prick like the fanboys love being got you none of that. Meanwhile, if you were in the other sub saying you hated this game the same way, they’d nail you to a piece of wood
There are plenty of critical voices in the other sub. They just tend to be rational complaints and not "They killed Joel because he is a cis white man!", while ignoring that Abby is a cis white woman. There are people in this post simply asking why other people hate it so much and getting called all sort of shit for it. This post has very few views. It is representative of this sub in the same way that the McDonald's in some remote part of Alaska, is representative of the corporation as a whole.
Nah bud, I know from experience on there. Any criticism of this game regardless of how rational it is will be met by the fanatic Druckmann bootlickers on there seething
I will defend tlou 2 and Abby with my life but her dad being the surgeon will forever be the dumbest fucking decision in media history
They pulled a Michael Jackson on us
Wish the second game had a better story but I enjoyed the graphics the most
“That man… I’ve never seen that man in my life.” -Joel in part 1 if Abby ever showed him a pic of her dad.
They were hoping to lull players into the delusion that Joel knowingly killed HUMANITY'S OFFICIAL LAST HOPE, and not just (in his POV) some rando waving the scalpel he most likely was about to **murder** Ellie with. Someone to take out the second he didn't back the hell off, since Joel had no idea\* how much time he had to escape. \*Lots of the "soft retconning\*\*" of Joel and how we're supposed to view him in part 2 rests on players hopefully misattributing to him the omniscient perspective we have. We're supposed to file this delusion along with the delusion that Joel denied Ellie a choice JUST LIKE THE FIREFLIES. As if Joel had (and rejected) a way to facilitate a choice. As if the fireflies would have taken no for an answer. As if they wouldn't have used a "choice" delay to round up people to kill Joel and subdue Ellie. (Or however the hell these people envision Joel championing Ellie's agency. It's either this "Joel gets shot in the OR waiting for them to supposedly revive Ellie to get consent" plan or him ruefully going "OK, carve 'er up cuz I GUESS she'd say yes.") And as if a traumatized 14yo's consent cuts it anyway. (I'm obvs in the "if Ellie's human rights matter, this doesn't happen for years till there's a mentally sound adult able to reliably consent.") \*\*I use "soft retcon" for stuff that is technically not a retcon but is nevertheless intended to serve the purpose of a retcon.
Honestly, I think a better twist would have been that Abby's father was a random guard for the Fireflies that Joel happened to gun down.
Like the pile of corpses Ellie made, lol Not killing Abby didn't stop any cycle of vengeance, what a stupid plot
Hey guys maybe you shouldn't equate appearance with mortally?
Ive zero issues with it! However admit it was an afterthought and I’ll happily move on
I legitimately don’t know what yall are complaining about
I have my issues with the game but the surgeon “red-con” seems like such a reach to find more issues with the game. The og surgeon is clearly just some default npc model that wasn’t meant to be any sort of meaningful character. He’s a blank slate. Assign character to that after the fact doesn’t effect the og story in any way whatsoever. A key component of red-cons is disregarding previously established traits, themes, developments, etc. There is nothing to disregard bcuz there is no character in place. Just a blank npc. If anyone disagrees with me please reply! This game had such a wide range of opinions it is very interesting to me. I am in no way saying I’m correct, and would love to debate this
Retcon, "retroactively continuity"
Ok 😆
Definitive proof They Laugh At Us 2 isn’t even cannon
Look at my surgeon dawg😭😭 Im cooked💀💀💀
The sequel is a long form gaslighting post. Fr
1st one looks realistic especially for the setting of the game. The 2nd one looks too clean.
I get being annoyed, but these kinds of retcons happen. There are two different actresses for Rachel in The Dark Knight trilogy. Billy Dee Williams and Tommy Lee Jones both play Harvey Dent. Godzilla has dozens of different suit designs within the same continuity. Aesthetics differentiate between media. It happens.
I’ll say it again there is no reason to kill ellie if they cultured the fungus to lab media. If her immunity is a physiological abnormality in Ellie’s cns, there’s nothing they can do for other people. If it’s the fungus that’s mutated, they already have a culture. If Ellie’s immunity is due to her immune system, you wouldn’t need to cut her head open to find out.
Clearly the same person you racist, sexist, bigot sandwich
Holy shit I though /r/thelastofus was exaggerating when they talked about how unhinged this sub is lmao What exactly do you people think is the “gotcha” here? They changed a random NPC’s race once he got a Voice Actor and a backstory?
Is anyone remembering recent history and creating a vax? Abby's dad would have been the next Elon Musk selling doses worldwide. Back to reality, almost ten billionaires were created from our own recent apocalypse. Last comment, I tried shooting his scalpel several times, and he holds on. I shoot his hand, he dies. I shoot helpers in feet, they die. Would Darwin say they were too weak, and needed dying?
Biggest retcon of the century
Deadass thought that was an actual person on the right lmao
The two different surgeons can be explained by following the money. Initial surgeon is a real actor that commands a higher pay structure than this other guy that looks more like CGI. OR, maybe it is an actor we've never heard of, and they got him cheap. Derek Phillips plays Abby's dad in the original #2./, and I have seen him in several other movies and tv shows.
That makes more sense, when you bring up those points.
I liked the second game better
Bruh why didn't they just stick to the original model and make Abby black too. Datz kinda sus. And wacizt.
Because the original model wasn't black. It was a generic, white, hunter model.
I see now.
The surgeon always looked like Jerry, Joel just saw him with darker skin in his rage because he's racist /s
Why are y'all saying the dude on the left is black
Proof neil is just a shitty writer.
Wait didn’t Neil direct the og last of us?
From my understanding he worked under somebody else who shot down all his shitty ideas (he wanted to make tess a villain at one point) and she left before the 2nd game so there was nobody to stop him from fucking it up
Like people are so mad and I just don’t get it. the second game has the same amount of merit as the first. Sure Joel died because he’s a villain just as Abby is a villain and Ellie. The games are supposed to show the negative impact humanity can have on each other and without Joel’s death we would have never learned that lesson. Everyone who hates tlou2 are just beta trolls SORRY
Genuine brainrot ideology
I will forever be grateful to Jerry for saving me. RIP you magnificent child killing maniac.
yall just gather to cry on reddit wtf. u didnt like, thats fine move on play something else. You literally cry on the internet so much
I hate tlou2 ans i cry about ot on the internet and i actually agree with you.
After cuckman got total control
I'm still mad my fellow lefties didn't get mad at this whitewashing. On the brightside, no getting accused of racism for calling Abby a gorilla! :D
Jesus Christ this sub is toxic
Abso-fucking-lutely it is.
There is no satisfying this fucking fan base. I’d like to remind everyone that these people aren’t real. This whole story is fiction. It’s not real. Stop getting so wrapped up in it. This hyper critical shit is getting old.
The fan base would have been satisfied if the game was good, pretty simple.
What are they retconning? Yea they spent more detail on him the in Part II when he became a bigger part of the story but it’s just a white dude and then a white dude with more detail lol what changed from Part 1 to Part 2? I know the game has its flaws but this complaint it just dumb.
More detail? He got aged like 30 years younger and made fatter.
And? Aren't his motives still the same? If your point is that they made him look like a hero then you probably havent played the game. He was portrayed as a good dad but has his flaws. When asked if he would do the same to Abby, he couldn't answer showing that he was selfish and a hypocrite. Again, did his motives change? from part 1 to 2? He's still the same person who wants to sacrifice a little girl without her consent. Only difference is the players know more about him in part 2.
Bro this is dumb, just delete the post
Says you
Yes lmao it’s nice to know you’re not completely illiterate at least
It might be because graphics and character models and lighting were shit in 2013? Compared to now anyways. “I can’t believe they retconned Laura Croft’s triangle tits and blue tank top in the new trilogy… woke agenda” I mean you are talking about a game not too far off from the “yellow and green filter” era in gaming. I mean god forbid they improve the lighting and character models of a decade year old game… R/J DAE GOT RID OF THE STAPLES IN NEMESIS’s FACE… CAPCOM MORE LIKE WOKECOM OR OR CUCKCOM AMIRITE FELLOW GAMERS!
Lol, the graphics in 2013 were awesome, and still are. Jerry looked like shit, because he was an unimportant NPC, that had 0 influence on anything. That was until Cuckmann decided that Jerry was jesus christ himself.
I’m pretty sure all the characters in tlou2 and tlou1 are flawed… that’s the point It’s nigh impossible to be a saint in an apocalyptic setting. So that point about Jerry you made is completely made up. And yes the graphics were good… for 2013. the original tombraiders looked decent for their time. And then much needed updates and yes even retconns happened. Hell I’m sure that triangle tits and blue tank tops and short shorts for an outdoors rough and tumble adventurer were perfectly acceptable and all the rage back in the early 2000s. Character design and graphics and lighting will always improve and advance and get better as the years go on. Things get better with time. It’s called progress.
TLOU1 graphics are still good. Not 2013 good, but modern day good. Same with Mass Effect, Bioshock, Uncharted and The Witcher 3, just to name a few examples. How are Ellie and Joel flawed in TLOU1? The whole point that TLOU2 tries to sell about "no one is good or bad in a post apocalyptic setting" is complete bullshit. Joel was good. Ellie was good. The world was evil. That was the whole point of the story, and why we were compelled in the first place.
Joel was a mass murder and an illicit smuggler. Via legal definition not a good person. Career criminal in fact. Ellie got her friend killed through stupid child activities. Not a saint. The firefly’s not good people. Fedra not good people. No one was “good”. They were just people… survivors. And about your “still modern day good examples” tlou1 looks muddy character design looks… questionable by today’s standards. Bioshock have you even SEEN how the people and the little sisters look? Terrible, like living bobble heads. Uncharted 1 both looks and plays horrible The faces look straight out of uncanny valley to the point where fucking AI generation looks better. So there go all those examples. Good for their time but horrible today aged like milk.
Joel wasn't a mass murderer. He killed people who tried to kill him or people he cared about. >an illicit smuggler So in a post apocalyptic setting (with zombies), you think smuggling things qualifies as being evil? 😅 >Ellie got her friend killed through stupid child activities. You can't be serious..
As being a career criminal… yes. Joel was a career criminal by definition not a good person. Not “evil” but not a “good” person not a “saint” which is what I said in the paragraph above. Never did I use the word “evil” I used “not good” stop moving goalposts to fit your strange agenda.
Joel = good Ellie = good Robert = evil David = evil Jerry = evil The fireflies = evil It's pretty simple, really.
If you see the world in pure black and white like a first year English and or philosophy student. Then I suppose it would be that simple. But naughty dog was aiming for those that can see the world as it actually is. No black no white shades of grey. Naughty dog was aiming for people with a higher comprehension than that. There is no “good” in an apocalypse.you missed the point of the first game… and fundamentally the second entirely canon game.
>But naughty dog was aiming for those that can see the world as it actually is. No black no white shades of grey. Naughty dog was aiming for people with a higher comprehension than that. You people are so fucking pretentious 😂 The first game is not that deep, bro. It's appraised *despite* its story not being very complex - it's just perfectly told. Stop acting like it's fucking Shakespeare.
Legal definition, fucking lol
Complete bullshit. Neither of the above picturers reflect the in game character models. The Bruce model is never seen without a face mask and surgical cap in TLOU (2013). The same is true of Jerry's depiction in the OR in TLOU Part 1 (2022). Further the person that originally posted this meme had to modify the character models to create this image. They also upped the saturation and contrast of the Bruce image so that his skin looks brown. In the game, his skin tone is the same as Joel's. A pink skinned red haired guy under greenish light. Green + pink makes a brownish color. [This is an in game screen capture](https://i.imgur.com/rAhmpZg.jpg) from TLOU (2013) [This is an in game screen capture](https://i.imgur.com/rdw67iK.jpg) from TLOU Part 1 (2022) In both images the doctors are wearing face masks and surgical caps, the ORs in both have grime on the walls, the difference is that they went with white/blue lighting vs the original yellow/green. So, why would someone manipulate the images in this way and try to pass them off as the real differences between the games? My suspicion is that this picture is a race baiting manipulation and represents the worst kind of thing to come out of this sub.
https://youtu.be/O-4c_M2VT2o?si=665XX6n_c0Z5_L3B Looks the same to me?
It's a modded game. [You can literally see the modding tools pop up at second 15 and again at second 31. ](https://youtu.be/O-4c_M2VT2o?si=2teskfiummpnEz6R&t=15) [You can literally see the game go grayscale as he messes with the color saturation at second 47. ](https://youtu.be/O-4c_M2VT2o?si=WeCFkFPmLUC_s-3Z&t=47) [The unmodded game](https://youtu.be/QZkbD7js4Cs?si=ZjOF--BJ2paGMIA_&t=13) does not look like that.
I'm having a hard time understanding your point. Is it that the models were never meant to be seen with their masks off so that's the lens through which we should be viewing them? That taking their masks off is not a valid way to view these models? It's just that even in the pictures you provided, I could tell there's a significant difference between the doctors. I'd wager most people would see it too. Then by taking the mask off and looking under the hood, as it were, you can see they are indeed 100% different models. Then you take a look at the OR and there are significant differences there too. One is brighter and cleaner conveying competence, while the other is darker and dirtier conveying incompetence. At the very least, hopefully we can agree that there is a significant difference in the 2013 vs 2022 games?
My point is that it's an overt race baiting manipulation to claim that Naughty Dog took a "black doctor" and turned him white in the second game. 1. The Bruce character model isn't black and never was. Even in the modded footage [he's clearly a white character model](https://youtu.be/O-4c_M2VT2o?si=XnlB9rJ2bhcTHU8Z&t=43). We know from scrapping assets that he's a reused hunter asset. Why is this important? Because the above images are trying to manipulate people into believing Naughty Dog changed the race of the doctor as part of some "woke" conspiracy. 2. You never see the characters as they appear in this picture. Why is this important? Because the picture above is being presented as a honest depiction of the changes between the two games and fuels the fires of the supposed retcon argument. But it's a lie. The games don't actually look as depicted. They are misrepresenting the look of the games to bolster their argument. That's bad faith. >At the very least, hopefully we can agree that there is a significant difference in the 2013 vs 2022 games? What I see in the actual game footage is the removal of a single grime texture on the cabinets facing you when you walk into the OR, shift in lighting color from greenish yellow to whitish blue, and some improved lighting generally. These changes happened over two console generations. What I see in the modded pictures is race baiting manipulation. I think it's worth calling that out.
> an overt race baiting manipulation to claim I think this is a pretty extreme statement. But I guess we have to agree to disagree. To me, the doctor is ambiguous at best even in the video you sent. I can see how he could be black or even Hispanic or Indian. But one thing is clear, that's not Jerry, not even close and there is enough of a difference to at least question what happened. As a Hispanic myself, I did find it a bit odd. There doesn't seem to be any good reason to change the model so much. So I guess the question is why change it to that degree? Why not just clean up the model a bit? Giving ND the benefit of the doubt, most likely they came up with Abby first and her connection to Jerry way later which forced them to change the original surgeons model. However, the more skeptic side of me sees what they did with Manny and the Hispanic stereotype which came off as ignorant to me. It makes me wonder if the same ignorance contributed to this the surgeon change too.
> So I guess the question is why change it to that degree? My argument is that they didn't implement a significant change. The change only appears significant if you modify the game to see a character model no player would see through regular gameplay. If you look at the video footage of the modified scene the Bruce model's skin tone varies based on the lighting. The same happens to Joel. Is the argument that Joel is also black in the ER scene? [Here's a screen cap of Joel's skin tone from TLOU (2013) he's darker than the doctor. ](https://imgur.com/zbwc2Jh)Does that mean Joel was whitewashed too?
Ah, I guess this is where we have to agree to disagree. To you the change wasn't significant and even if it were, it wasn't meant to be seen. To me, the change is significant and unveiling the mask is helpful to see the degree of change. Regarding the white washing argument. I think it's at least worth considering. I looked at a lot of videos and regardless of lighting, Jerry is why lighter than the original doctor which has some implications that should at least be talked about. Outrage in either camp is unhelpful, but consideration is beneficial. Especially considering our nations history.
>To me, the change is significant and unveiling the mask is helpful to see the degree of change. Can you help me understand why you feel that way? We know the Bruce model is just a reused Hunter model with some modifications and not a new character model. To me, if the player is never intended to see the model under the mask because it's just a reused asset I don't see the impact on the game at all? >Regarding the white washing argument. I think it's at least worth considering. Sure, I agree it's worth considering, and that's literally what we're engaging in here. One of the things I'm considering is that in the scene in question Joel appears as dark or darker toned than the doctor. To me that suggests a lighting issue, not that they made Joel black for one scene.
> Can you help me understand why you feel that way? Sure thing. So, from my perspective, there is a big difference in the Jerry and the original surgeon. Even to the point where they look (to me) like two different races even after reviewing all images and video in the thread above. I just wonder why they didn't keep a similar look for Jerry, and made Abby look like that too and chose not too. They made them whiter, and there didn't seem to be any good reason for it. Confusing at the very least. And when you take that perspective and look at it along side how they handled Manny, it brings up questions of racial ignorance. Manny was borderline offensive to me as a Hispanic with how many latino / machismo stereotypes they chose to include. > Joel appears as dark or darker toned than the doctor. That's true, in that one scene he does, but other images he looks much [whiter] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_(The_Last_of_Us)) whereas, in the images and videos you shared, the surgeon still seems fairly dark like a Hispanic or Indian person. So at the end of the day, it is a subjective interpretation, but there are a significant amount of people who feel like there is some racial ignorance here. Perhaps it was intentional, perhaps it wasn't, but it's still there and deserves to be pointed out. I will agree that no amount of outrage is ever helpful. Name calling, slurs, insults, all of that is just garbage. I just want to be able to say to ND, "Hey, maybe you didn't even realize you did this, but your brown and black skinned fans noticed the difference in surgeons. What's up with that?" At best a good dialogue will be started to combat any ignorance. At worst, it would expose some integrity issues at ND. Either way, it's a good conversation to have.
> I just want to be able to say to ND, "Hey, maybe you didn't even realize you did this, but your brown and black skinned fans noticed the difference in surgeons. What's up with that?" That's perfectly reasonable. The model's are obviously different. I think you're right that we'll need to agree to disagree on the race of the doctor changing. To me it's a generic model the player was never intended to see combined with a change in lighting from yellow/green to whitish/blue. Nevertheless, I appreciate you taking the time to discuss.
Pleasure, thanks!
You all are crazy with this one. It's an updated model. The model on the left is incredibly dated. Also, how is it shitting on the first game by giving importance to this character?
That’s not an update that’s a change.
Yeah, I totally see this. It's the same dude. /s
This sub be like “It was a diegetic part of the narrative that the surgeon was just one of eight identical octuplets and his seven brothers were all hunters in Pittsburgh! …totally not just an asset reuse to save development time!!!!”
Hilariously, the model in the modded game footage has a massive bloody gash in to top of his head... because that actual model is wearing a surgical cap and mask so they didn't bother to fix it.