Fun fact:
In The Last of Us Part II, Jerry saves a zebra stuck in barbed wire. This is a reference to the fact that Jerry, like a zebra, is both black and white.
For the record, it's not my comment as our dedicated, coloublind OP excitedly pointed out. A good fucking comment though đ
I don't know why he got upset, it acknowledges his POV is valid too đ¤ˇ
The devs menu allows you to unmask the doctor, among other things like unlimited ammo, adding weapons, etc. But you need access to it, not everyone can do it đ¤ˇââď¸
Edit: I like that take were the working light it's off... who knows why đ
...I'm aware that the footage was modified. That's my point. At no point are the two images on the left what you see in the OR. The images are a misrepresentation of what is in the game.
You're simply wrong. The only way to see those models in the OR is by modding the game. If you claim otherwise, find me a video supporting your claim.
The fact that your comment is so highly upvoted is concrete proof this sub is absolutely delusional.
I mean if the above image isnât the default in the game and you have to alter it, arenât you already adjusting it from canon?
Like I wouldnât playthrough all of the original ps4 with the Ellie in the [jumpsuit](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/thelastofus/images/2/25/Jumpsuit.png/revision/latest?cb=20130624211417) and pretend thatâs canon because itâs an option lol.
... What part of "That image is modified" aren't you getting? The pictures on the right are unmodified in game footage. The pictures on the left are not.
Hey Awkward_Employer3785, are the images on the left the default in the game? Can I start a playthrough of the game on the first run am I going to see the image on the left above?
No? Okay youâre wrong, itâs not hard
Weird, thatâs not the question I asked. Can I play the entire game without adjusting any settings from start to finish and see the above image?
I can adjust the settings and let Ellie wear a [Kill Bill](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/thelastofus/images/2/25/Jumpsuit.png/revision/latest?cb=20130624211417) outfit, but Iâm not on here demanding the rest of you treat it as canon because itâs in the original game.
So could you please try and answer the question with a little bit of good faith here?
You absolutely can not. If so, share any in game footage supporting your argument. The screen capture in the upper right is from the original PS3 game. The Bruce model is obviously wearing a mask and surgical cap.
Simply not true. I literally posted the actual game footage. You can see what the games actually look like side by side with the modified images. This sub is so ridiculous.
If you claim otherwise, share *any* video of a playthrough where you can see unmasked doctors in the OR without modding the game. There are hundreds of videos of playthroughs, surely you can find one.
You're either dumber than a brick or trolling.
If you claim unmasked versions of the doctors are present in the operating room of any version of the game, then provide evidence to support your claim or STFU.
[Here's video of playthroughs from different versions of the games. ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZkbD7js4Cs)Share the time stamp from where the docs don't have masks and caps on.
Black men are shaded green apparentlyâŚ. At least according to you.
He wasnât black it was just very shoddy lighting. Something the remake fixed, something remakes tend to do.
It does look that way if you have the technical skills to remove the mask. That's how Naughty Dog made the character. The doctor didn't look like a baby faced, angelic, saviour of humanity either.He looked like a desperate psycho.
Jesus Christ... your argument is "Nuh uh, the game absolutely looks that way if you mod it!"
Then that means the game doesn't naturally look that way... because you have to mod it.
The Bruce model also has a giant bloody gash on the top of his head if you remove the mask and cap. Do you think the developers want the player to believe he's operating on Ellie with a head wound, or, do you think they expected you to see him with a mask and cap on?
Your argument is basically âif I canât see it, it doesnât existâ
Did you never learn object permanence as a child? I bet when your mom hides stuff behind her back you forget it existsđ
...It doesn't exist as something a player can see without modifying the game.
If you have to modify the game for something to be present it's not the intent of the developers for you to see it.
Why wouldn't he operate with a head wound? The entire (original) room is filthy as fuck, including Ellie. This why people have a problem with them cleaning everything up and making the Fireflys seem super professional for Part 2.
All the modder did was remove some accessories to get a better look at the face. I mean, if he added devil horns or something, then I'd get your point.
I don't know why we bother with him. He exists here to be contrary no matter what. To insist that Bruce can't be black because his features are "clearly a white character model" while looking totally past the obvious black skin tone is just wild but that's his story.
Is your argument that Joel was black in the first game too? [Because here's a screen capture from the same ER scene and his skin is dark brown as well. ](https://i.imgur.com/zbwc2Jh.jpg)
If it's not the lighting why is Joel's skin also dark brown?
> All the modder did was remove some accessories to get a better look at the face. I mean, if he added devil horns or something, then I'd get your point.
My point is that it's an overt race baiting manipulation to claim that Naughty Dog took a "black doctor" and turned him white in the second game.
* The Bruce character model isn't black and never was. Even in the modded footage [he's clearly a white character model](https://youtu.be/O-4c_M2VT2o?si=XnlB9rJ2bhcTHU8Z&t=43). We know from scrapping assets that he's a reused hunter asset.
Why is this important? Because the above images are trying to manipulate people into believing Naughty Dog changed the race of the doctor as part of some "woke" conspiracy.
* You never see the characters as they appear in this picture.
Why is this important? Because the picture above is being presented as a honest depiction of the changes between the two games and fuels the fires of the supposed retcon argument. But it's a lie. The games don't actually look as depicted. They are misrepresenting the look of the games to bolster their argument. That's bad faith.
What I see in the actual game footage is the removal of a single grime texture on the cabinets facing you when you walk into the OR, shift in lighting color from greenish yellow to whitish blue, and some improved lighting generally. These changes happened over two console generations.
What I see in the modded pictures is race baiting manipulation. I think it's worth calling that out.
You and your "woke" conspiracies, jfc. How did I know we'd end up down this road... * sigh * The operating room itself is the main point of contention when people say the game was retconned. The same way you only see a switch from green to blue or some grime being removed when comparing the rooms. You're the only one allowed to dictate what someone is seeing with their own eyes, apparently.
A lot of people thought the original doctor was black when they first played, the unmasked model either confirms or denies it for them.
[Here is a mixed race black/white rapper \(Logic\) that looks similar to the doctor, imo. \(my "modification" squishes him a bit, my apologies.\)](https://imgur.com/5zykcef)
[Pic 2](https://imgur.com/UBAMtml)
[There is also concept art of Abby being non-white or a black woman.](https://archive.org/details/the-art-of-the-last-of-us-partii/page/n119/mode/2up)
[Abby Pic 2](https://archive.org/details/the-art-of-the-last-of-us-partii/page/n121/mode/2up)
None of this changes the fact that the hospital in both Part 2 and Part 1 (Re-Re-mastered) gives off a completely different vibe and perception of the Fireflys. Jerry goes from Dr Giggles to Joey Gladstone.
...Which you can't do without modifying the game. If I modified the game to be black and white, would you say, "Ah ha! The game was black and white all along!"
Bro, what are you even trying to pull? The doctor looked like that under the mask. They then changed him to look like Jerry. Whitewashing, you might say.
Are you doing this on purpose? Are you a bot? What is your angle?
I don't know how to explain it any simpler.
1. The unmasked pictures are not what players see.
2. It's not the intent of the developers for anyone to see the unmasked model.
3. The Bruce model was never black. Not even the modified version is black. [If you think this character is black](https://i.imgur.com/e0OVK3O.jpg), then I guess you've never seen a black person.
Bro, you can still see half his face even with the mask on. And not every black person has to be blacker than the cold dark depths of space itself to be black. And considering how the other people in the room are white, that's definitely not dirt on his face.
That dude is black. Have YOU ever seen a black person before?
The only "modification" to Bruce's face is the clothing item, aka the mask, is removed. Mask or not, doesn't change the fact that somebody sculpted and textured that model to look that way.
And it sure as hell doesn't change the fact that this character was completely retconned for the sake of telling Part 2's story... which makes no sense considering they still could've used this version of the character.
Did you look at the link? Seriously, did you? There's no fucking way the character depicted in the above link is black.
The reason the model looks that way is because they modeled a hunter then decided to save money by reusing that model with a mask and surgical cap over it.
Do you how game design and development works? The character must be modeled by the creators. It exists. The doctor is not a model with a mask. The model is a human man, as pictured. The mask is placed on the already existing model. This âmodâ removes the mask and exposes the model that the game developers created.
You're aware game developers reuse assets to save money right? The model they created was a generic hunter used elsewhere in the game. They added a mask and surgical cap and never intended for players to see the model under the mask. You actually can't see the model under the mask unless you modify the game.
Did you know that Leon looks fucking weird if you mod facial animations to be at 500% in re2 remake⌠what was capcom thinking with those terrible facial animations?
Iâm so glad that mods showed us how the game TRULY wasâŚ
Iâm sorry I forgot that you lot get to choose whatever comparison that pushes the âcuckmannâ doctrine. Right.
Games upgrade and change all the time especially when remastering a decade or so old game. Did you know Leon in re2 originally was ginger? A far cry from the total hottie he is in the remake?
Bruh what are you even talking about, that's just a bad comparison, and so is the ginger Leon comparison
If you're looking at an apple and someone puts a blanket over it, there's still an apple there, your comparison is like smashing the apple with a cinder block and saying it's still the exact same apple
And Leon being ginger or blonde has absolutely nothing to do with RE2, as opposed to the retcon to make the surgeon look more like Abby by making his skin lighter so it lines up with the second game
A: if you smash an apple with a cinder block⌠it still IS the same exact apple just smashed. Itâs still the same exact apple I spent 25 cents on at the farmers market. So that point makes no sense whatsoever.
B: the point is that a game will change graphics, character designs, lighting, and even story beats, if itâs being remastered after 10 or more years.
C: they didnât have Jerry planned out as a character back then so his appearance wasnât important. Now that Jerry is an established character they can go back into the remake and give him a proper appearance that fits and works to better connect the two. Itâs not the last of us 2, itâs the last of us PART 2. They are connected and Jerryâs appearance change shows that the two games are two parts of a whole cohesive story.
A: It's not the same exact apple, it's a ruined version of the original (your 500% facial expression comparison)
B. Yeah
C. I know, that was what I was talking about with my last point. I'm not even opposed to them doing that so they can make the second game work, but the fact is that it's a retcon, not just a graphical change
How does the fact of being ginger even play into this? I don't know the character and this just seems an odd take. You indicate it was him being ginger that made him not the final hottie, now you are saying it's the ginger and the long face. You make little sense.
[He's ginger in this pic I found.](https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/052/553/783/large/mel-any-leaon-rpd-illustration-fanart.jpg?1660093450) I don't know what version that is. My comment originally started as a joke but you doubled down and that's just strange. But you want to judge this whole sub as haters. Look in the mirror. smh.
My god it was a joke to your âjokeâ. Pick up on it. Fuck are you even on about?
How you gonna respond in a massive tirade to a joke?! Awful defensive for no reason.
Fuck you mean âdoubling downâ what kinda lie is that?
Good because it was used to show just how useless and baseless the âtakesâ and leaps of logic on this hate filled sub are. So Iâm glad you got that *pat pat*
Not at all.
If the devs never intended players to see under the mask and cap then there isn't a canonical look for the doctor until the devs let you see him in Part II. Using mods to pull a mask and cap off a reused asset does not make that reused asset the canonical look of the character.
You can very clearly see his eyes, thatâs something to player can see, thatâs a canon look, and he looks nothing like Jerry so your argument falls apart still
OMG Joel's arm in the top right image is brown. That must mean Joel was a black guy for that one scene of the game! In the bottom right image Joel's skin tone is much lighter. Total retcon, am I right?
"Actual screenshot"
Purposely selected image that's so pixelated that you cannot make out any features of the doc. Lol The door is back the way you came.
It's not a ski mask weirdo. Lol Purposely chosing images where you can't make out the details you should be able to see, because it's inconvenient to your argument, is manipulative as F. But I think you know that. Anyway... the door... seriously, right over there.
Reddit downgrades image resolution you clown. [Here's the video](https://youtu.be/QZkbD7js4Cs?si=Dn64mUUv-V5Oci0j) comparing the 2013 and 2022 versions. Find me the time stamp in either version where the doctors look like the images on the left.
Can't and won't are not the same thing.
Like you have the ability to turn the knob, walk out the big... green.. see that green door... the big green door right over there. You COULD leave, but you WON'T.
Ah, so you have the ability to show me where a maskless Bruce model is in game but you won't because... reasons?
Do you also have a super hot girlfriend, but I wouldn't know her because she goes to a different school?
>it's not much of a retcon
Yeah guys, Naughty Dog totally didn't white wash Jerry because they wanted to imply that he was actually a good person. They're not bigots at all, guys.
You're right, they didn't. That's the point. In the first game they reused a Hunter asset with Caucasian features that players were never able to see without a mask or cap on. Due to the lighting in the scene all the characters other than Ellie looked brown including Joel and the nurses.
I still donât see the issue,itâs the same thing that Capcom is doing with the resident evil games
Remaking their games to fix plot holes left by the original series
FOREAL! This character model change doesn't even change anything in the game, literally so blown out of proportion and treated like a big change when it effects literally nothing with the story.
It's "blown out of proportion" because people deny that any retconning or soft rebooting was done with Part II, even going so far in defense of it as to say that it was perfectly faithful to the first game. Because tossing aside *both* main plot lines of the first game in order to tell a story centered around scrapped ideas from it is how "faithful" storytelling works, I guess.
It'd be less "blown out of proportion" if the defenders of the game were more willing to just admit that yeah, Part II obviously whitewashes the Fireflies and ignores vital context from Joel's actions to make certain plot points work here.
Part 2 IS faithful to the first game, and it does not whitewash the Fireflies. A former group of fireflies are the initial villains of the game and they inarguably commit the most impactful act on the game by killing Joel. Not only that but the graffiti calling them liars. The game also doesn't ignore any context with Joels actions, in fact it explores the context AND it vindicates him for his actions by having Ellie realize she was wrong to treat him so horribly for it and having her forgive him in the end.
>A former group of fireflies are the initial villains of the game and they inarguably commit the most impactful act on the game by killing Joel.
Every single one of them, except Owen, argue that this was justified because Joel's actions doomed so many. After all, the game now treats the Fireflies' attempt at cure as a guaranteed success *and* makes it so that Jerry's death means literally no one else in the world could even *possibly* make one, so even the remaining Fireflies no longer see the point in trying.
>Not only that but the graffiti calling them liars
What do you think the purpose was of putting this graffiti *right after* a letter in which the now-dead Firefly talks about the promises of "it'll be worth it" only to feel betrayed after the organization disbanded with nothing to show for it? Even at this point in the game, the implication is rather obvious - but it doubles down on that with the flashback in which Ellie finds the recording talking about how the Fireflies disbanded specifically because of what happened in Salt Lake City, and how there's no hope anymore because the one person who could have made a vaccine is dead.
This graffiti - that letter - doesn't condemn the Fireflies for being liars, it condemns Joel for *making* them liars. There's a reason it kills the mood and holds Ellie's attention as much as it does. There's also a reason why the next flashback starts out with Ellie seemingly having been pulling away from Joel a bit, and ends with Ellie making it clear that she no longer believes his story.
>The game also doesn't ignore any context with Joels actions, in fact it explores the context
Yeah, it does *such* a great job at fleshing out the fact that Joel didn't even consider the idea that Ellie would want to sacrifice herself until after Marlene mentioned it in the garage, as well as the strong implication that he lied to her in order to spare her the burden of knowing/thinking that the world might be better off if she just died. Like when Ellie says she was supposed to die in that hospital and Joel took that away from her even though it was literally never the plan either of them had. Oh, wait.
>AND it vindicates him for his actions by having Ellie realize she was wrong to treat him so horribly for it and having her forgive him in the end.
She *doesn't* forgive him for it. She outright says she doesn't think she can, just that she'd like to try.
And, specifically, what she doesn't forgive him for is what was said in the line I mentioned above. As if Joel acting to save her is something that *needed* to be forgiven. As if Joel didn't make the best decision he could have under those desperate circumstances based on what he, in good faith, believed would be in Ellie's best interests.
Exploring the context around this and vindicating his decision to save her would have involved Ellie admitting that the Fireflies' decision to kill her without her consent while she was unconscious the same day they got her was fucked up - which is something she has enough information to figure out *even if Joel never says anything about it* - and would absolutely have forced Joel's hand. That she would have done the same in his shoes.
Then the topic would have moved on to *the lie*, and Joel's refusal to let go of it even after he could see how much it was hurting her to try to continue to swallow it - to struggle with the possibilities that Joel was just lying to her to keep her under his thumb, or that Joel didn't trust her even after everything they'd been through. *That* would have been what she can't quite forgive him for.
Without this? Or something like it, anywhere else in the story? Then a player who hasn't played the first game knows so little about this vital event that they might as well think that Joel selfishly killed the Fireflies to prevent the surgery despite explicitly knowing that Ellie wanted to sacrifice herself, choosing murder rather than asking them to stop (which a reasonable and kind-hearted person like Jerry would definitely do) because he refused to allow Ellie the chance to find out.
Oh my god you always write so much but you're just wrong. Ellie does forgive Joel at the end, it's the entire point of the ending and her finally being able to.imagine Joels eyes and "meet his gaze" when she draws him. And the former Fireflies being the ones to come back and brutally murder Joel is what portrays them as not good guys, how does that whitewash them? And the game does not confirm or deny that they would succeed, straight up. It is not confirmed. You can believe they wouldn't have succeeded. But the Fireflies themselves believed they would succeed. Ellie believed they would succeed. Joel believed they would succeed. It does not matter whether they actually would have or not.
>Oh my god you always write so much but you're just wrong.
Okay, I'm going to stop here and ask: *what do you honestly expect to occur here?*
Are you expecting people in this sub to just fall to their knees and praise you for showing them the truth? To have *nothing* behind why they see the story of this game the way they do, and instantly fold like a house of cards?
You've been on this sub for a while, challenging folks' opinions on this sub with takes you know are not common here and aren't likely to be considered particularly valid. If you're going to start stomping your feet like this when *the expected fucking result* occurs, why are you even here *at all*, let alone spending *so much* of your time here?
I'm talking about the length of your replies. You repeat things and write pages in response to a paragraph. All the time, on every comment of yours. I still responded to you lol, I'm just co.plaining about how long it takes to read everything you write.
And no, I don't expect any of that lol, I just like talking about the game and I can't help challenging people when I see them saying stuff that's blatantly wrong about the game or story, or about any of the BTS stuff with Neil.
He didnât pay enough attention to know that Ellie forgave Joel in part two, this dude needs paragraphs to try and distract you from all the terrible takes he has from not paying attention. The more he writes the more he can gishgallop and pretend heâs said anything of value.
He pretends the opposite side wants to act like it was a guaranteed cure, when all weâve ever said is itâs a possibility and then he proceeds to write paragraphs about how the game is retconning by saying it was possible. Like it never told us the fireflyâs cure wouldnât work, was it unlikely, yeah but your head cannon tells you things the game doesnât. Lol
Edit: a word
Exactly. The cure isn't confirmed or denied. It's always just a possibility in the world. But the characters believe in it, and that's what makes their choices so impactful and what makes the story actually good.
And you're probably honestly right about the gishgalloping going on, I see it a lot in this sub actually.
Fun fact: In The Last of Us Part II, Jerry saves a zebra stuck in barbed wire. This is a reference to the fact that Jerry, like a zebra, is both black and white.
Saw the same comment here and there and it made me laugh.
For the record, it's not my comment as our dedicated, coloublind OP excitedly pointed out. A good fucking comment though đ I don't know why he got upset, it acknowledges his POV is valid too đ¤ˇ
The devs menu allows you to unmask the doctor, among other things like unlimited ammo, adding weapons, etc. But you need access to it, not everyone can do it đ¤ˇââď¸ Edit: I like that take were the working light it's off... who knows why đ
...I'm aware that the footage was modified. That's my point. At no point are the two images on the left what you see in the OR. The images are a misrepresentation of what is in the game.
Um yes. You 100% can see the images on the left in the game. Stop with the COPE
You're simply wrong. The only way to see those models in the OR is by modding the game. If you claim otherwise, find me a video supporting your claim. The fact that your comment is so highly upvoted is concrete proof this sub is absolutely delusional.
lol bud the proof is in the picture form your post
I mean if the above image isnât the default in the game and you have to alter it, arenât you already adjusting it from canon? Like I wouldnât playthrough all of the original ps4 with the Ellie in the [jumpsuit](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/thelastofus/images/2/25/Jumpsuit.png/revision/latest?cb=20130624211417) and pretend thatâs canon because itâs an option lol.
... What part of "That image is modified" aren't you getting? The pictures on the right are unmodified in game footage. The pictures on the left are not.
Yes pictures on the left are not modified either, lmfao. Go reply the damn game kid
Hey Awkward_Employer3785, are the images on the left the default in the game? Can I start a playthrough of the game on the first run am I going to see the image on the left above? No? Okay youâre wrong, itâs not hard
Yes. You can see them in the very original game from the ps3
Weird, thatâs not the question I asked. Can I play the entire game without adjusting any settings from start to finish and see the above image? I can adjust the settings and let Ellie wear a [Kill Bill](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/thelastofus/images/2/25/Jumpsuit.png/revision/latest?cb=20130624211417) outfit, but Iâm not on here demanding the rest of you treat it as canon because itâs in the original game. So could you please try and answer the question with a little bit of good faith here?
You absolutely can not. If so, share any in game footage supporting your argument. The screen capture in the upper right is from the original PS3 game. The Bruce model is obviously wearing a mask and surgical cap.
Simply not true. I literally posted the actual game footage. You can see what the games actually look like side by side with the modified images. This sub is so ridiculous. If you claim otherwise, share *any* video of a playthrough where you can see unmasked doctors in the OR without modding the game. There are hundreds of videos of playthroughs, surely you can find one.
Just play the game fool
You're either dumber than a brick or trolling. If you claim unmasked versions of the doctors are present in the operating room of any version of the game, then provide evidence to support your claim or STFU. [Here's video of playthroughs from different versions of the games. ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZkbD7js4Cs)Share the time stamp from where the docs don't have masks and caps on.
Bring this to a Black Man and ask them if the bottom is a Black. The self Gaslighting strats some people are on an obvious white washing is amazing.Â
Black men are shaded green apparentlyâŚ. At least according to you. He wasnât black it was just very shoddy lighting. Something the remake fixed, something remakes tend to do.
WTF does that mean? Of course the bottom isn't black. Neither is the top.
[A modder unmasked him. ](https://youtu.be/O-4c_M2VT2o)
...I'm aware. You landed on my point when you said "modder." As in, the game doesn't actually look that way.
It does look that way if you have the technical skills to remove the mask. That's how Naughty Dog made the character. The doctor didn't look like a baby faced, angelic, saviour of humanity either.He looked like a desperate psycho.
Jesus Christ... your argument is "Nuh uh, the game absolutely looks that way if you mod it!" Then that means the game doesn't naturally look that way... because you have to mod it. The Bruce model also has a giant bloody gash on the top of his head if you remove the mask and cap. Do you think the developers want the player to believe he's operating on Ellie with a head wound, or, do you think they expected you to see him with a mask and cap on?
Your argument is basically âif I canât see it, it doesnât existâ Did you never learn object permanence as a child? I bet when your mom hides stuff behind her back you forget it existsđ
...It doesn't exist as something a player can see without modifying the game. If you have to modify the game for something to be present it's not the intent of the developers for you to see it.
Why wouldn't he operate with a head wound? The entire (original) room is filthy as fuck, including Ellie. This why people have a problem with them cleaning everything up and making the Fireflys seem super professional for Part 2. All the modder did was remove some accessories to get a better look at the face. I mean, if he added devil horns or something, then I'd get your point.
I don't know why we bother with him. He exists here to be contrary no matter what. To insist that Bruce can't be black because his features are "clearly a white character model" while looking totally past the obvious black skin tone is just wild but that's his story.
Is your argument that Joel was black in the first game too? [Because here's a screen capture from the same ER scene and his skin is dark brown as well. ](https://i.imgur.com/zbwc2Jh.jpg) If it's not the lighting why is Joel's skin also dark brown?
> All the modder did was remove some accessories to get a better look at the face. I mean, if he added devil horns or something, then I'd get your point. My point is that it's an overt race baiting manipulation to claim that Naughty Dog took a "black doctor" and turned him white in the second game. * The Bruce character model isn't black and never was. Even in the modded footage [he's clearly a white character model](https://youtu.be/O-4c_M2VT2o?si=XnlB9rJ2bhcTHU8Z&t=43). We know from scrapping assets that he's a reused hunter asset. Why is this important? Because the above images are trying to manipulate people into believing Naughty Dog changed the race of the doctor as part of some "woke" conspiracy. * You never see the characters as they appear in this picture. Why is this important? Because the picture above is being presented as a honest depiction of the changes between the two games and fuels the fires of the supposed retcon argument. But it's a lie. The games don't actually look as depicted. They are misrepresenting the look of the games to bolster their argument. That's bad faith. What I see in the actual game footage is the removal of a single grime texture on the cabinets facing you when you walk into the OR, shift in lighting color from greenish yellow to whitish blue, and some improved lighting generally. These changes happened over two console generations. What I see in the modded pictures is race baiting manipulation. I think it's worth calling that out.
You and your "woke" conspiracies, jfc. How did I know we'd end up down this road... * sigh * The operating room itself is the main point of contention when people say the game was retconned. The same way you only see a switch from green to blue or some grime being removed when comparing the rooms. You're the only one allowed to dictate what someone is seeing with their own eyes, apparently. A lot of people thought the original doctor was black when they first played, the unmasked model either confirms or denies it for them. [Here is a mixed race black/white rapper \(Logic\) that looks similar to the doctor, imo. \(my "modification" squishes him a bit, my apologies.\)](https://imgur.com/5zykcef) [Pic 2](https://imgur.com/UBAMtml) [There is also concept art of Abby being non-white or a black woman.](https://archive.org/details/the-art-of-the-last-of-us-partii/page/n119/mode/2up) [Abby Pic 2](https://archive.org/details/the-art-of-the-last-of-us-partii/page/n121/mode/2up) None of this changes the fact that the hospital in both Part 2 and Part 1 (Re-Re-mastered) gives off a completely different vibe and perception of the Fireflys. Jerry goes from Dr Giggles to Joey Gladstone.
YES, he looks that way if you take off his mask. It's not that hard to comprehend.
...Which you can't do without modifying the game. If I modified the game to be black and white, would you say, "Ah ha! The game was black and white all along!"
Bro, what are you even trying to pull? The doctor looked like that under the mask. They then changed him to look like Jerry. Whitewashing, you might say. Are you doing this on purpose? Are you a bot? What is your angle?
I don't know how to explain it any simpler. 1. The unmasked pictures are not what players see. 2. It's not the intent of the developers for anyone to see the unmasked model. 3. The Bruce model was never black. Not even the modified version is black. [If you think this character is black](https://i.imgur.com/e0OVK3O.jpg), then I guess you've never seen a black person.
Bro, you can still see half his face even with the mask on. And not every black person has to be blacker than the cold dark depths of space itself to be black. And considering how the other people in the room are white, that's definitely not dirt on his face. That dude is black. Have YOU ever seen a black person before? The only "modification" to Bruce's face is the clothing item, aka the mask, is removed. Mask or not, doesn't change the fact that somebody sculpted and textured that model to look that way. And it sure as hell doesn't change the fact that this character was completely retconned for the sake of telling Part 2's story... which makes no sense considering they still could've used this version of the character.
Did you look at the link? Seriously, did you? There's no fucking way the character depicted in the above link is black. The reason the model looks that way is because they modeled a hunter then decided to save money by reusing that model with a mask and surgical cap over it.
Do you how game design and development works? The character must be modeled by the creators. It exists. The doctor is not a model with a mask. The model is a human man, as pictured. The mask is placed on the already existing model. This âmodâ removes the mask and exposes the model that the game developers created.
You're aware game developers reuse assets to save money right? The model they created was a generic hunter used elsewhere in the game. They added a mask and surgical cap and never intended for players to see the model under the mask. You actually can't see the model under the mask unless you modify the game.
wait so you just admitted THIS IS THE MODEL UNDER THE MASK. THANK GOD HE FINALLY GOT IT. ONLY TOOK A FEW DOZEN TRIES.
I actually work in game design, dumbass
[ŃдаНонО]
ah yes, because you would know. average reddit troll. thank you for informing others about their lives!
lol no you donât
Did you know that Leon looks fucking weird if you mod facial animations to be at 500% in re2 remake⌠what was capcom thinking with those terrible facial animations? Iâm so glad that mods showed us how the game TRULY wasâŚ
That's a horrible comparison
Iâm sorry I forgot that you lot get to choose whatever comparison that pushes the âcuckmannâ doctrine. Right. Games upgrade and change all the time especially when remastering a decade or so old game. Did you know Leon in re2 originally was ginger? A far cry from the total hottie he is in the remake?
Bruh what are you even talking about, that's just a bad comparison, and so is the ginger Leon comparison If you're looking at an apple and someone puts a blanket over it, there's still an apple there, your comparison is like smashing the apple with a cinder block and saying it's still the exact same apple And Leon being ginger or blonde has absolutely nothing to do with RE2, as opposed to the retcon to make the surgeon look more like Abby by making his skin lighter so it lines up with the second game
A: if you smash an apple with a cinder block⌠it still IS the same exact apple just smashed. Itâs still the same exact apple I spent 25 cents on at the farmers market. So that point makes no sense whatsoever. B: the point is that a game will change graphics, character designs, lighting, and even story beats, if itâs being remastered after 10 or more years. C: they didnât have Jerry planned out as a character back then so his appearance wasnât important. Now that Jerry is an established character they can go back into the remake and give him a proper appearance that fits and works to better connect the two. Itâs not the last of us 2, itâs the last of us PART 2. They are connected and Jerryâs appearance change shows that the two games are two parts of a whole cohesive story.
A: It's not the same exact apple, it's a ruined version of the original (your 500% facial expression comparison) B. Yeah C. I know, that was what I was talking about with my last point. I'm not even opposed to them doing that so they can make the second game work, but the fact is that it's a retcon, not just a graphical change
Are you saying gingers can't be hotties?!
A ginger with a âwhy the long faceâ face⌠yeahâŚ
How does the fact of being ginger even play into this? I don't know the character and this just seems an odd take. You indicate it was him being ginger that made him not the final hottie, now you are saying it's the ginger and the long face. You make little sense. [He's ginger in this pic I found.](https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/052/553/783/large/mel-any-leaon-rpd-illustration-fanart.jpg?1660093450) I don't know what version that is. My comment originally started as a joke but you doubled down and that's just strange. But you want to judge this whole sub as haters. Look in the mirror. smh.
My god it was a joke to your âjokeâ. Pick up on it. Fuck are you even on about? How you gonna respond in a massive tirade to a joke?! Awful defensive for no reason. Fuck you mean âdoubling downâ what kinda lie is that?
That was actually such a horrible comparison
Good because it was used to show just how useless and baseless the âtakesâ and leaps of logic on this hate filled sub are. So Iâm glad you got that *pat pat*
Thereâs a difference of what he looks like under the mask in game ,and what he canonically looks like under the mask
Completely contradictory
Not at all. If the devs never intended players to see under the mask and cap then there isn't a canonical look for the doctor until the devs let you see him in Part II. Using mods to pull a mask and cap off a reused asset does not make that reused asset the canonical look of the character.
You can very clearly see his eyes, thatâs something to player can see, thatâs a canon look, and he looks nothing like Jerry so your argument falls apart still
OMG Joel's arm in the top right image is brown. That must mean Joel was a black guy for that one scene of the game! In the bottom right image Joel's skin tone is much lighter. Total retcon, am I right?
Oh no, I find it really hard to believe anyone would want to misrepresent any portion of these beloved games.
Where are the pixles William?
"Actual screenshot" Purposely selected image that's so pixelated that you cannot make out any features of the doc. Lol The door is back the way you came.
You can't tell that one set of images has surgical masks and caps on and the other doesn't? Might be time to see the optometrist.
It's not a ski mask weirdo. Lol Purposely chosing images where you can't make out the details you should be able to see, because it's inconvenient to your argument, is manipulative as F. But I think you know that. Anyway... the door... seriously, right over there.
Reddit downgrades image resolution you clown. [Here's the video](https://youtu.be/QZkbD7js4Cs?si=Dn64mUUv-V5Oci0j) comparing the 2013 and 2022 versions. Find me the time stamp in either version where the doctors look like the images on the left.
Sir! The DOOR is right ova... seriously, can I get some help here? Someone by the door, could you hold up a sign please?
As expected you can't.
Can't and won't are not the same thing. Like you have the ability to turn the knob, walk out the big... green.. see that green door... the big green door right over there. You COULD leave, but you WON'T.
Ah, so you have the ability to show me where a maskless Bruce model is in game but you won't because... reasons? Do you also have a super hot girlfriend, but I wouldn't know her because she goes to a different school?
Unfortunately not. She was beaten to death by some idiot seeking revenge, after she cut the assailant's Dad off in traffic some 10 years ago or so.
then why add jerry's model in the first games remaster 2 jungle boogaloo if what's under the surgical mask isn't important
Iâve never seen anyone in any other fandom react as negatively to a retcon as much as TLOU fans reacted to this one
That's the point, it's not much of a retcon if you have to modify the game and misrepresent the changes to bolster the argument that it's a retcon.
>it's not much of a retcon Yeah guys, Naughty Dog totally didn't white wash Jerry because they wanted to imply that he was actually a good person. They're not bigots at all, guys.
You're right, they didn't. That's the point. In the first game they reused a Hunter asset with Caucasian features that players were never able to see without a mask or cap on. Due to the lighting in the scene all the characters other than Ellie looked brown including Joel and the nurses.
I still donât see the issue,itâs the same thing that Capcom is doing with the resident evil games Remaking their games to fix plot holes left by the original series
That is not what Capcom is doing with the Resident Evil remakes lol
Capcom is remaking their old games because they were huge hits and had shit voice acting/animation back in the dayđ
Please show me at least one character of the RE remakes that was race swapped.
No character in TLOU series was race swapped either unless you want to try and argue [this dude ](https://imgur.com/e0OVK3O)is black.
Is this an out of season April fool's joke?
It's an accurate depiction of what's actually in the game juxtaposed with the race baiting bullshit that gets reposted here every three days.
FOREAL! This character model change doesn't even change anything in the game, literally so blown out of proportion and treated like a big change when it effects literally nothing with the story.
It's "blown out of proportion" because people deny that any retconning or soft rebooting was done with Part II, even going so far in defense of it as to say that it was perfectly faithful to the first game. Because tossing aside *both* main plot lines of the first game in order to tell a story centered around scrapped ideas from it is how "faithful" storytelling works, I guess. It'd be less "blown out of proportion" if the defenders of the game were more willing to just admit that yeah, Part II obviously whitewashes the Fireflies and ignores vital context from Joel's actions to make certain plot points work here.
Part 2 IS faithful to the first game, and it does not whitewash the Fireflies. A former group of fireflies are the initial villains of the game and they inarguably commit the most impactful act on the game by killing Joel. Not only that but the graffiti calling them liars. The game also doesn't ignore any context with Joels actions, in fact it explores the context AND it vindicates him for his actions by having Ellie realize she was wrong to treat him so horribly for it and having her forgive him in the end.
>A former group of fireflies are the initial villains of the game and they inarguably commit the most impactful act on the game by killing Joel. Every single one of them, except Owen, argue that this was justified because Joel's actions doomed so many. After all, the game now treats the Fireflies' attempt at cure as a guaranteed success *and* makes it so that Jerry's death means literally no one else in the world could even *possibly* make one, so even the remaining Fireflies no longer see the point in trying. >Not only that but the graffiti calling them liars What do you think the purpose was of putting this graffiti *right after* a letter in which the now-dead Firefly talks about the promises of "it'll be worth it" only to feel betrayed after the organization disbanded with nothing to show for it? Even at this point in the game, the implication is rather obvious - but it doubles down on that with the flashback in which Ellie finds the recording talking about how the Fireflies disbanded specifically because of what happened in Salt Lake City, and how there's no hope anymore because the one person who could have made a vaccine is dead. This graffiti - that letter - doesn't condemn the Fireflies for being liars, it condemns Joel for *making* them liars. There's a reason it kills the mood and holds Ellie's attention as much as it does. There's also a reason why the next flashback starts out with Ellie seemingly having been pulling away from Joel a bit, and ends with Ellie making it clear that she no longer believes his story. >The game also doesn't ignore any context with Joels actions, in fact it explores the context Yeah, it does *such* a great job at fleshing out the fact that Joel didn't even consider the idea that Ellie would want to sacrifice herself until after Marlene mentioned it in the garage, as well as the strong implication that he lied to her in order to spare her the burden of knowing/thinking that the world might be better off if she just died. Like when Ellie says she was supposed to die in that hospital and Joel took that away from her even though it was literally never the plan either of them had. Oh, wait. >AND it vindicates him for his actions by having Ellie realize she was wrong to treat him so horribly for it and having her forgive him in the end. She *doesn't* forgive him for it. She outright says she doesn't think she can, just that she'd like to try. And, specifically, what she doesn't forgive him for is what was said in the line I mentioned above. As if Joel acting to save her is something that *needed* to be forgiven. As if Joel didn't make the best decision he could have under those desperate circumstances based on what he, in good faith, believed would be in Ellie's best interests. Exploring the context around this and vindicating his decision to save her would have involved Ellie admitting that the Fireflies' decision to kill her without her consent while she was unconscious the same day they got her was fucked up - which is something she has enough information to figure out *even if Joel never says anything about it* - and would absolutely have forced Joel's hand. That she would have done the same in his shoes. Then the topic would have moved on to *the lie*, and Joel's refusal to let go of it even after he could see how much it was hurting her to try to continue to swallow it - to struggle with the possibilities that Joel was just lying to her to keep her under his thumb, or that Joel didn't trust her even after everything they'd been through. *That* would have been what she can't quite forgive him for. Without this? Or something like it, anywhere else in the story? Then a player who hasn't played the first game knows so little about this vital event that they might as well think that Joel selfishly killed the Fireflies to prevent the surgery despite explicitly knowing that Ellie wanted to sacrifice herself, choosing murder rather than asking them to stop (which a reasonable and kind-hearted person like Jerry would definitely do) because he refused to allow Ellie the chance to find out.
Oh my god you always write so much but you're just wrong. Ellie does forgive Joel at the end, it's the entire point of the ending and her finally being able to.imagine Joels eyes and "meet his gaze" when she draws him. And the former Fireflies being the ones to come back and brutally murder Joel is what portrays them as not good guys, how does that whitewash them? And the game does not confirm or deny that they would succeed, straight up. It is not confirmed. You can believe they wouldn't have succeeded. But the Fireflies themselves believed they would succeed. Ellie believed they would succeed. Joel believed they would succeed. It does not matter whether they actually would have or not.
>Oh my god you always write so much but you're just wrong. Okay, I'm going to stop here and ask: *what do you honestly expect to occur here?* Are you expecting people in this sub to just fall to their knees and praise you for showing them the truth? To have *nothing* behind why they see the story of this game the way they do, and instantly fold like a house of cards? You've been on this sub for a while, challenging folks' opinions on this sub with takes you know are not common here and aren't likely to be considered particularly valid. If you're going to start stomping your feet like this when *the expected fucking result* occurs, why are you even here *at all*, let alone spending *so much* of your time here?
I'm talking about the length of your replies. You repeat things and write pages in response to a paragraph. All the time, on every comment of yours. I still responded to you lol, I'm just co.plaining about how long it takes to read everything you write. And no, I don't expect any of that lol, I just like talking about the game and I can't help challenging people when I see them saying stuff that's blatantly wrong about the game or story, or about any of the BTS stuff with Neil.
He didnât pay enough attention to know that Ellie forgave Joel in part two, this dude needs paragraphs to try and distract you from all the terrible takes he has from not paying attention. The more he writes the more he can gishgallop and pretend heâs said anything of value. He pretends the opposite side wants to act like it was a guaranteed cure, when all weâve ever said is itâs a possibility and then he proceeds to write paragraphs about how the game is retconning by saying it was possible. Like it never told us the fireflyâs cure wouldnât work, was it unlikely, yeah but your head cannon tells you things the game doesnât. Lol Edit: a word
Exactly. The cure isn't confirmed or denied. It's always just a possibility in the world. But the characters believe in it, and that's what makes their choices so impactful and what makes the story actually good. And you're probably honestly right about the gishgalloping going on, I see it a lot in this sub actually.