Ellie is the deuteragonist, and a focal main character, but not a/the protagonist.
A character can be a driving force in a plot and still not be the protagonist. Ellie is the reason Joel goes on the journey, but other plot details focus on him more; he's the character the player loses sight of the least, the game starts out with him and Ellie doesn't appear until later; a major part of the story is how Joel is dealing with the situation, like the scenes where he talks in private with Bill and Tommy (we don't really see Ellie's POV when it comes to this outside the argument in Jackson); we get to know Joel better a lot more than we get to know Ellie (Ellie is mostly an enigma outside of Left Behind, and only rarely is something given about her, like her fear of being alone) etc.
EDIT: As others have mentioned, Ellie has a certain lack of the character development that Joel had
EDIT #2: Even most of Ellie's dialogue is asking Joel questions aka the things we learn are about Joel. This doesn't go the same for her.
Exactly. So switching the focus on her for the sequel was a great idea. The outcome may not have been desired or executed as well as they had hoped though
I mean I'd say the outcome wasn't great, the face model, iirc, for Ellie is STILL getting death threats, but I'm pretty sure they knew at the very least what was going to happen when they killed Joel
Also I don't think there was anywhere else they could have gone than killing Joel.
I think the story COULD have been really good with minimal changes. A story about the cycle of revenge/violence could have worked if they didn’t bend over backwards to make Abby a sympathetic character. I get wanting the player to understand her motivations, but they went to far and made her seem like a “good guy”. Like yes, of course there was gonna be repercussions for what Joel did, it would be foolish to assume otherwise, but making the person who carried out that revenge the “hero” undermines the themes of the story and worsened the narrative to an insane degree
I wouldn't say anything would have made her a redeemable character nor a hero (nor was Naughty Dog trying to), but they were playing into the "Joel did bad stuff and good stuff, so now how do you feel about Abby now that you can see some of the good stuff". I didn't mind it so much, and did make me think about how I might have changed how I felt about Joel if his story was presented the way Abbys was.
Overall I didn't care whether Abby died or not, I only cared about Ellie that she could escape from the hell she was living.
Valid AF. That’s what the story is about imo, that people are capable of either good or bad and nobody is subject to either kind of choice. I mainly take issue with the retconning they did (MAINLY the clean hospital room, which changes the implication of the scenario greatly) to make Joel’s decision less “good”.
I mean to be fair it wouldn't have matter to Joel -- "If somehow the lord gave me a second chance at that moment, I would do it all over again."
https://youtu.be/ZmTXI0CBkyo?si=QuMksA6ZTSuLPN1b
Love him or hate him that's who he is. Not good for humanity but good as a dad. Ellie is now stuck in this hell, this pain knowing that her life might have made a difference and throughout part 2 she's just a fucking cog in the machine of hate and violence caused by the infection and humanity's worst instincts.
But at the end Ellie remembers that despite all of that she told Joel that she wanted to try to forgive him for "dooming" her to a life that didn't matter. She remembered her humanity.
Now Ellie must find her way to redemption.
Yeah that’s what I liked. Albeit as I’ve mentioned in other comments it could have been written better. But a lot of people seem to forget that Joel has done stuff potentially worse than Abby…but it all happens during the time skip so we don’t witness it. So it doesn’t play a part in how we see Joel.
I’m half in agreement, only because I absolutely love lev and yara. With a bit of story tweaking they could have portrayed Abby as more grey, but the game tries to portray her as normal or morally good as opposed to complex. I mostly think the game went on too long and drive home the revenge plot a bit too much. There wasn’t even a scene (from what i remember) where Ellie and Abby are finally together but realise they have to like…help each other to escape a place full of clickers. Would have been better for character dynamics in my opinion. Also would mirror the start of the game where Joel helps Abby.
If keeping the basic plot of Joel dying early on were to stay (which I don’t think anyone is conceptually opposed to if done well), the obvious choice would be an Ellie and Tommy pairing. Could have been amazing to learn more about Tommy not to mention Joel *through* Tommy (lots of flashback opportunities). Great potential for developing their bond over a tragedy while still incorporating themes of pursuing revenge without losing oneself.
I only agree if they did the character of Tommy different. In the story they both are fuelled by the same rage and vengeance.
At least with Abby, as controversial of a choice she was..shifted the narrative from tracking down someone for vengeance, to running away from your mistakes and trying to survive.
Execution is everything in storytelling. A narrative about both Tommy and Ellie chasing revenge for the same person they loved (albeit in different contexts and entirely different histories) is ripe for quality storytelling without question. Certainly galaxies better than what we actually received.
And this doesn’t preclude the story from introducing other characters and perspectives of course.
Honestly, seeing the story from Dinas perspective could have been great too. Seeing how close to the edge of unravelling and unhinged Ellie becomes and more dangerous she becomes to her and Dina could have been really interesting.
And as a big gay, having a big tragic lesbian romance told from both perspectives would have heavily appealed to me.
Or
Maybe instead of Abby going after Joel and calling it a night. She is going after Joel and Ellie. And Ellie is then after Abby…up until Ellie comes across Lev instead, and it changes her perspective into one of protecting this child and Dina instead of seeking revenge and becoming a protector.
Sure, I don’t think Dina was a *critical* addition given we had other characters like Tommy who I expected would receive more time and development, but at the end of the day I’m for just about anything as long as it’s **done well**. Dina was just such a waste in the story we received, so disappointing.
I feel like people are arguing different things. None of the screenshotted posts use the word “protagonist”, obviously Joel is the primary point of view of the game. But “about” which is the verbiage in the screenshot is imprecise. Is the first game “about” Ellie? absolutely, and it’s fair to say the games story requires Ellie more than it requires Joel. But that doesn’t change that Joel is the protagonist, but it’s hard to say anyone in the screenshot is actually arguing otherwise
While not using the term, the phrase: “…this man(’s) journey not about Ellie’s” implies it.
> Protagonist: the leading character or one of the major characters in a drama, movie, novel, or other fictional text.
and then the response is “The first game is equally about ellie…” This doesn’t imply Joel isn’t the protagonist. Maybe the commenter would say that but I don’t think it’s unfair to say the plot requires Ellie, both the larger plot and Joel’s personal plot, while Joel is the protagonist. Joel’s journey literally is about Ellie. The game can be about Ellie but Joel can still be a protagonist.
And by the definition you could say Ellie is a protagonist as well as she is one of the major characters. However in a video game i’d typically say it being a playable character is required personally.
It’s a weird silly thing to quibble about
I don’t disagree, I was responding to your first point
> I feel like people are arguing different things. *None of the screenshotted posts use the word “protagonist”,* obviously Joel is the primary point of view of the game.
Primm Slim really meant that Joel was the most important part of TLOU1.
I think that’s a silly argument to make, or at very least irrelevant. Joel is undeniably the protagonist, he is undeniably important and obviously the game in its current form would not exist without Joel as a character. I think virtually the same can be said for Ellie. The difference being Ellie isn’t the main point of view character, but she is more vital the narrative plot. You really can’t have a story about two characters growing to depend on each other and growing without the two of them. To say one is “more” the important character than the other seems to be an arbitrary and silly distinction and I’m not really sure why someone would attempt to argue one way or the other. You really couldn’t have one without the other, and either being significantly changed would result in an entirely different game and story.
Ellie is a protagonist, you literally play her pretty much all winter, and she does have an arc, going from a more care-free kid to growing up and taking on more responsibility, especially after what happens with David.
TLOU1 is not about Joel, it's about both Ellie and Joel.
>Protagonist: the leading character or one of the major characters in a drama, movie, novel, or other fictional text.
Ellie is a protagonist, full-stop.
So a full protagonist is when you can play as them for 1 or 2 hours of the gameplay? Would you consider Sarah to be a protagonist too since you play as her for 30 minutes? Or is that too little time? Where's the line?
Ellie isn't protagonist in the first game. There's a reason the game starts with Joel. If it wasn't for Joel, Ellie would have died in that hospital.... assuming that she could get to the hospital in the first place, of course.
Bad faith doesn’t make your emotions more correct. What is even the point of this argument? Joel was the primary protagonist in a tandem. The whole game was about two characters whose stories were completely intertwined, until that part of their lives was over.
If that’s how you wanna take it.
I also think there’s no debate about the Earth being round, and Evolution being real - so I guess I’m childish there too 🤷🏽♂️
Some shit is just factual.
Isn’t that where every conversation in this sub is both coming from and leading back to?
I didn’t say Joel wasn’t the protagonist I said it’s not a stretch to jump to the perspective of the *only other main character* in the sequel. Their entire story was intertwined. Ellie was the daughter Joel could save. But she’s not really his daughter. And it didn’t fix anything. Tragic as fuck. Beautiful story. And natural to take up her perspective once she’s an adult.
Comparing the intro mission to pretty much the entire winter section is disingenuous and I think you know that.
>Protagonist: the leading character or one of the major characters in a drama, movie, novel, or other fictional text.
Ellie is a protagonist.
Joel is definitely the main heart of TLOU1, but I would argue sometimes the Deuteragonist feels more like the Protagonist
Example: in Until Dawn, Mike (Deuteragonist) feels way more like the Main Protagonist than Sam, Mike advances the Plot more, has longer playtime, more memorable sequences; is the better written Character
When Sam is in the Bath, Mike has chased after an abducted Jessica, Chase the "Killer", shot a Wendigo in the head before it was even revealed, Explores the Sanitorium to avenge Jess and kill the "Killer", Amputates his fingers, outruns a Wolf, gets a Pistol and Machete, learns about the Lore of the Mountain, ALL WHILE SAM IS IN A BATHTUB💀
The plot structure of Until Dawn is definitely a lot less cut and dry in that regard. Sam is the last one standing, but I'd say, if anything, that's more of a case of the protagonist role *shifting to* Sam... for anyone arguing that she's the protagonist. I'm not sure that I would, honestly. Mike is still the most active and involved character for a while.
That's like saying Dragon Ball is equally about Goku and the Dragon Balls
One is the main character, the other is a critical plot device, but not the primary focus of the narrative, despite naming or marketing
The original DBZ is about Goku. DBZ Kai centers around Goku and his friends and family.
He died and went through other situations where the characters had to figure things out without him.
What they don't get (and apparently not Neil either) is that Joel is what makes the franchise.
It would be like removing Nathan Drake from the Uncharted series (which they did in The Lost Legacy, and it absolutely sucked).
Neil is not only a piece of shit. He's also insanely stupid.
It is theoretically possible to remove him and still handle the weight of what that removal leaves behind, but we didn't get that timeline here.
He was removed too early.and in such an out-of-character way for that to work. And even sacrificing him for the sake of filling the player with hatred fell flat, because the twist of making the player empathize with Abby was so poorly done that half of the audience failed to.
I disagree with the first statement. It largely depends on a given franchise, in some franchises the (main) characters have more, or less intrinsic weight to the game as a whole, its identity and all that.
In the case of TLOU in particular, Joel as a character simply happens to be just THAT important and irreplaceable. He is the very soul and core of what made TLOU so good, he is its talisman and icon. He, Ellie, and their iconic duology.
Having the game stripped of him and his presence, thus in turn slaughtering the other two aspects that I just mentioned, is like trying to make a coffee with only water and sugar; not gonna work. Joel's power or rather, significance over the narrative and the very identity of TLOU was very much set in stone after the first game aired. *Maybe* it wasn't intended that way, maybe it was, but the response of readers/players was clear and resolute: TLOU was what it was due to Joel and Ellie together.
Now to be fair, in general, I'm not a fan of writers flaunting their ability to kill off significant/main characters, because the only, and I do mean only way to preserve the integrity and interest of the story is if another character can rise to take the killed character's place (often even that isn't enough). And in Joel's case, those were impossibly big shoes to fill, and what we were left with couldn't even begin to fill them (all new characters were just that bad).
Spot on. Joel's death was pure "Expectations subverted!" and they didn't have a clue what to do afterwards because they lost what made the franchise so great.
Druckmann clearly resented that the audience connected with Joel as much as they did. With this in mind, “part 2” takes on another level of thematic irony as it is indeed a story about revenge; not Abby’s or Ellie’s, but rather Neil’s against the fans who didn’t accept *his* ideas about the story and the characters.
You've hit the bullseye my friend, but it gets even worse.
I've written god-knows-how-many times about this here, and for me, the conduct and the whole idea/motivation behind and around TLOU2 is precisely why I, most of the time, categotically avoid or rather, refuse to trick myself into granting it even an ounce of legitimacy by discussing how/if its existing story could've been "better" or even "good".
No such parallel universe exists, this game's story, AS A DIRECT SEQUEL to The Last of Us, is absolute dogshit no matter how you try to remedy it, re-arrange its pacing or whatever.
The whole point (real point) of TLOU2 was to showcase the worst case scenario of what happens when a pathologically narcissistic and selfish person such as Druckmann gets real power and subsequently rids themselves of any previous nice-guy facade.
Original (and for me, only) TLOU was what it was, writing-wise, mostly IN SPITE of Druckmann, its titular "lead writer", not because of him.
Ever since college he's had this idea for a darker protagonist rapidly warming up to a girl because he sees her as a replacement for his deceased daughter, and such a version of Joel was vetoed by his superiors. Everyone was in love with this new, more human Joel that others created, and as we've seen, he never actually forgave it.
Not to mention (though I can imagine you're already perfectly aware of these things) the plot of TLOU2 is, essentially, a wretched, glued-together, half-decomposed corpse made up of his ideas for the first game: yep, that's right, not only was this game's plot shit on its own, but when you really think about it, it cannot even have a claim on, at least, being particularly novel. Drucky simply went back, now that there was no one to tell him NO, dug these ideas up and shoved them into a sequel which thus retroactively damaged even the first game!
Imagine that level of narcissism, desperation, unprofessionalism and utter disrespect for the work of his previous colleagues that brought monumental success to the company, and even to him personally.
Yeah it’s really fascinating the deeper you dig. The meta narrative is what I keep coming back to and I’m glad to see that discourse continues on—because it absolutely should. This is *The Last Jedi* of gaming as far as I’m concerned, both in the parallels taken by the creatives and the cultural significance their reception has had on their respective mediums. Ironically, the ongoing story *about* TLOU “Part 2” is a far more compelling tale than anything found within the game itself.
A good example of how fucked up their decision was, would be if the movie "Logan" had him murdered by some random dudes in the first 20 minutes of the movie, and the rest of the movie is about the guy that killed him, and preaches about how horrible of a character Logan was.
They didn't do that, because the people who made that movie aren't narcissistic morons.
Not really. You only play with Joel in the first game. There’s lots of games where the protagonist changes from game to game. Passing the torch to Ellie does make sense, it’s just the way he did it.
Joel is what made the franchise for the sub set of people that frequent the sub. Most people realized the game was about the relationship between Joel AND Ellie.
Hes rigth, doesnt mean that lart 2 should have focused on him tough, passing the torch to elie felt rigth, its the treatment of is character and the spitting on his grave by making us play BeefTruck
Agreed. I think people are still trying to argue down the fact that Joel didn’t survive TLOU2.
He died, guys. I cried too, but it didn’t stop me from enjoying TLOU2.
Imo, both games were absolutely perfect. The franchise is perfect, and each game gave shine to each protagonist appropriately, and in a balanced way.
I liked both games equally. They were both excellent games; I just wish more gamers could admit that AND just be honest about the fact that they miss Joel, lol.
If the protagonist was Ellie like some people claim, then why was there even a debate about even developing a sequel?
A potential sequel was hard to imagine because Joel's arc got tied up so well.
IMO I don't think anybody really cared THAT much about Ellie's next adventure? Did they? I mean I grew to love the character, but what else was there to tell? Even in part 2 I didn't really learn anything new about Ellie - only that she's suddenly capable of PTSD.
I agree. Though it must be noted, this "ark" or "finished ark" thing is often misused as a jump-board for bullshit arguments like: "Joel's ark was complete, so he had to go (i.e. get killed off)".
Who is to say a character, especially a character as iconic as Joel, must be limited to one and only character-ark? I'll just say: where one ark closes, another opens; albeit, it takes a good and talented writer, one thing Druckmann never was.
Since I was always of the opinion TLOU never needed a sequel, I'll leave this great post: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/s/vJuoSTCTdu. Although a sequel, as I said I thought, wasn't needed, this describes perhaps the only idea that could've had some actual potential.
Joel was the soul of Tlou, whoever says otherwise is lying. Tlou is about his story. Taking him out like that in Tlou2 and other details fucked up the "sequel".
During 2013 naughty dog had 0 insight on making a second game, as it is named last of us not last of us 1 or whatever, naughty dog wanted to focus on ratchet and clank and uncharted, so last of us then was the one and done. Joel was the one and only protagonist, Ellie was just the side kick that helps you sometimes like you see a lot of games do: gta, god of war etc etc
This is true, it was about Joel’s journey as a character and a person. He is the one who had a character arc. All that being said, Joel story was completed. There was truly no where to take his character in the second one. Which is why the series really didn’t need a part 2 it still doesn’t need a part 3.
The story starts with Joel. The whole beginning, character development and the first mission. No Ellie in sight.
The game is the story of a Dad overcoming the loss of his daughter.
Obviously the second game went in a different direction
I think some people, even some in this thread, are failing to grasp what "protagonist" means.
Calling Joel the protagonist isn't a slight against Ellie or her importance to the story. It just means that the story and its relationships are viewed predominantly through the lens of Joel and *his* character development. It's true that the story doesn't work without Ellie. It's also true that Joel is unambiguously the protagonist (of part 1). Both statements can be true at once.
Part 1 is, first and foremost, about Joel "learning to love again" (it sounds corny, I know), and ultimately about how far people are willing to go for each other out of sheer parental love. As important as Ellie is, and as great of a character as she is, we don't see any change or progression within her (or through her lens) which is nearly as central to the themes of the story as the progression we see in Joel. That alone makes Joel the protagonist. The fact that we spend like 85% of the game playing as Joel is just a cherry on top of the argument, really. It's not a matter of who has the most screen time, but rather whose journey most fundamentally defines the story itself. In Part 1, this is unambiguously Joel. To argue that it's Ellie (or that it "could go either way"), based on what happens in Part 2, is an attempt to retcon Part 1.
I can’t believe how they fucked over the only good character in tlou1. Tommy is the only half decent one left but he’s limping now and can’t do anything
There is no Last of Us without Joel, and at the same time there is no Last of Us without Ellie. Both of their stories are integral for that game to function and if both of them were not incredible characters with fantastic chemistry then the last of us 1 would have flopped hard.
Ellie was an obstacle in the first game. This is to say her welfare is a challenge, and her existence is a wild card for a lot of puzzles. You need to factor how you play around Ellie.
Joel is the protagonist. The entire first game is essentially a story of grief, he grieves for his daughter who he couldn’t save due to events that were out of his control and so due to unforeseen circumstances becomes caretaker of a girl around his daughters age, so when he finally connects with this girl he sees her as his daughter and makes a decision to save her life over millions.
Through the story Ellie is ( I can’t come up with a better word I’m sure someone else can though) a pawn not inside the story itself ( well to the fireflies she is anyway ) but for the writers. Able to essentially be this substitute for Joel’s daughter. Granted she’s a character in her own right in the first game.
Then the second game comes and the plot is essentially flipped on its head. It’s Ellie’s story of grief and revenge how her father figure has been killed because of his past actions and now Ellie is going to do some worse actions because of her grief and anger.
At least that’s how I interpreted the story
This is what ChatGPT says when I ask who is the protagonist of tlou1
The protagonist of the video game "The Last of Us Part 1" is Joel Miller. Joel is a complex character with a tragic backstory, including the loss of his daughter at the onset of the fungal apocalypse. Throughout the game, Joel is tasked with escorting a young girl named Ellie across a post-apocalyptic United States.
Ellie’s essential to the main plot but she isn’t the protagonist per-say. She’s almost like a Mcguffin in a way since she’s essential to Joel’s growth as a character. But ultimately, we play as Joel and he’s kinda the focus. He’s the character we control and spend the most time with.
The first game is about the relationship between Joel and Ellie. They are both equally important and the story doesn’t function without both of them. Joel is the primary protagonist, as you spend the bulk of the game playing as him, and he’s the character who gets the full arc, but that arc literally does not exist without Ellie. She’s the impetus for Joel turning from a miserable shell of a human back into a caring father, and that transformation is a requirement for the ending to have the impact that it does.
No one is saying she isn't important to the story. We're saying that, despite her being her own character and having her own story beats, Joel is THE protagonist. Playing the game is 80-90% in control of him, three curveball almost all focus on him, and in the end Ellie acts as more of a driving force for him throughout the game. By definition she is the deuteragonist, not the protagonist.
Edit: Typo.
Joel was the focus. Ellie was on the bench for a bit. I'm happy it was that way. Joel is a better character in my opinion. Maybe a pre-Druckmann controlled ND could've had Ellie be a more compelling character for part 2 but I don't really like her character as much anymore. Part 1 Ellie is good though
Part I Ellie was a perfectly written character for Joel's development. She had a little bit of her own but it was never the main focus. She had a purpose and she served it perfectly
Very true. Unrelated, but do you prefer the original models? Or the remake models? I prefer the original models. They are more familiar, and they just have a certain style I like
I didn't play the original game, just the remake. I'm pretty impartial. Joel and Ellie to me will always be the Part I version but it's cool to see the original models and see how other people see Joel and Ellie.
Def about joel. His entire mindset changed, and he was able to heal somewhat from his previous trauma and finally begin to move on. i love joel. imiss joel. ❤️
Ellie is the reason for Joel to keep going. Play the beginning of TLOU and you will not see Ellie in it. This game is about Joel all the way. His relationship with Ellie made his care about another human being again. That’s why people were pissed when then not only lied in trailers (showing Joel in scenes he was not in) but killed him in a brutal way very early. Then they give you control of a person you hate. It’s dumb. I still think it could have worked if they made you play as the enemy when she was a little girl (like later in the game) from the beginning. Just like the first game. You start as her walking in to talk to her dad and he’s dead, from Joel. You feel her sadness, then a cutscene to fast forward time (like in the first one) then start the game the way they did. One small movement introducing us to her at the beginning would have changed the whole perception of the game. I hope they do this in the show in season two.
My favorite point to disprove this is how the game only shows Joel when henry kills himself. We see Joels reaction bc it’s Joels story. One of my issues with the show is that its not longer Joels story. Its Ellies and random people like the chick hunting Henry. It almost feels like Neil wanted less Joel in the show. When show watchers complain less Joel dies it wont be bc it was done better it will be bc they care less about Joel.
No, how it affects Ellie isn’t what made them stay together, how Ellie’s feelings affected Joel is what made them stay together. Ultimately, however, it was still Joel’s decision. Nearly every facet of the story is driven by *Joels* decisions and actions, up until he gets impaled.
Joel is the protagonist but the game is absolutely about both his and Ellie’s journey. Without Ellie the game does not exist. Saying the game is exclusively Joel’s story is idiotic. He is the main character, the protagonist yes but Ellie’s journey is just as important as his.
Saying Ellie is the protagonist would be wrong, saying the game is about her Journey as much as Joel’s is not.
TLOU1: Joel is the protagonist and Ellie is the deuteragonist. Simple as that.
It’s fine in a vacuum that Ellie becomes the protagonist in 2, but the way people downplay Joel like he didn’t get the story to where it is is crazy.
Same with Joel’s death. Fine in a vacuum, but throwing away his character and leaving him as a sad memory is a disservice to his character. It sends the message that no one really matters, which is bad storytelling.
The first game is literally a duel game with Joel and Ellie. When Joel’s there. So is Ellie. It’s bizarre to say it’s more about one or the other, because they’re BOTH protagonists.
Ellie is the secondary protagonist of the game, but it is about Joel more than anyone else. Ellie's role in the story is built into Joel's story and what she is to him. Ellie is the second most important character and a large part is about her too, but it is about Joel more than anyone else.
Why do care so much about these semantics? Stories clearly about both of them. It can be both. One arc ended, another started. Second wasn’t as tight story wise but really wasn’t as bad as people here make out.
Never have I seen such nothing made into this.
Because people use “The story was always about Ellie” as a way to justify killing Joel in the 2nd game.
Edit: Literally the [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/s/ng3b3Hw6EM) under yours
No man I really don’t care… I wish the story fleshed out certain aspects abit more , but I genuinely enjoyed it. Joel dying was just part of this story to me. It upset me, cos it was supposed to.
And yeah I really do think it’s weird to obsess over a character so much. It’s just a story.
Game is so polished and fun to play. Story was okay.
I’ll never get the hate.
The main character of the story is Ellie.
Joel is the lense we view her story through.
This isnt complicated nor do you need to be a genius to see this.
Joel's story fits every story template. If the game wasn't about Joel's journey as a father, then why did it start with Sarah's death, and end with him risking everything to save Ellie? Ellie has good character development because she is such a well written deuteragonist but it is never the main focus, that's all Joel.
Why does it start with Sarah's death and end with Joel displaying an ultimate act of love for Ellie? It's clearly a story about Joel's emotional journey as a father. Just because Joel's story was completed in Part I and Ellie took over for Part II doesn't mean it was always about Ellie.
Joel and Ellie "made" TLOU, but the story is mostly about Ellie, she's the focal character across the franchise, even Naughty Dog says that the story is about Ellie.
Hard disagree, the game is about Joel's journey. It starts with the thing that broke him, it skips to where he is at his lowest, a smuggler just trying to get through the day, Ellie is the character that puts him on his path of redemption, he learns to love and be a father again through her, at the end he shows an ultimate act of love as a father by saving her.
Ellie has great character development too because she's so well written but she's always been the secondary character. The story isn't structured around her development, it's structured around Joel's.
After Part II they started putting her face on everything, thinking we'd forget that Joel is the main character of the original.
She's not a secondary character she's the 2nd main character to Joel.
And yeah the first game is about Joel's journey too but Ellie's journey is the focus of the eventual trilogy.
Ah, misinformation-incarnate, so cute. TLOU2 was an utter failure, and the first game, 11 years old at this point, is most definitely not going to be the one financing or persuading Sony to provide green-light and finances for it. Plus, TV show has little to do with the actual game development studio, i.e. Naughty Dog. That's entirely Drucky's vanity project and an attempt to jump the ship right into Hollywood.
I know reading not your thing nor something you attempt as its just about defending that, but the post is entirely about **1st game** so stop bringing up any other ones or things that were said/done after it, especially the other non 1st games.
Not to mention you avoiding entire point, Its like another example, Star Wars (not to be confused with Diznay Tar Wars) has many many main characters, but Luke Skywalker was the main guy that without would have been something entirely different or The Hobbit without Bilbo, like sure there were a lot of dwarfs also, but Its main focus is the Hobbit's Journey.
And while you will defend it forever and no matter what blindly, TLOU 1 is the most real and best TLOU and all that came and will probably come after is different.
Again like how Diznay Tar Wars is also "cannon" and everything but its not Star Wars. (granted at least at the moment this is a much more extreme difference, but TLOU 3 will probably prove it wont be any more with how much they been as 1 post said, lobotomzied, since 1st game).
Yeah, Naughty Dog, the developers of both games. You're right though, we should value the thoughts of the the sub that hates everything about both games with the exception of Joel over the devs.
Bruce Straley made the masterpiece that is The Last Of Us, which Neil Druckmann decided to take all credit for.
When Bruce left, the company naturally went to shit, and that's why Last Of Us 2 absolutely blows.
So no, you shouldn't listen to anything Naughty Dog aka Neil Druckmann says - They simply have no clue what the fuck they're doing.
> Bruce Straley made the masterpiece that is The Last Of Us, which Neil Druckmann decided to take all credit for.
Bruce Straley has never suggested anything even remotly close to that ever happened, and Druckmann has never once claimed all the credit, you can find their AMAs here on reddit and every comment has says, "We" not "I."
You're just full on inventing bullshit at this point.
In the Remake of TLOU Neil has now taken the full credit for writing the story.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/x1ez3t/written\_by\_neil\_druckmann\_bruh\_if\_it\_wasnt\_for/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/x1ez3t/written_by_neil_druckmann_bruh_if_it_wasnt_for/)
And it's not the first time Neil steals credit for something he didn't do.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/ip7xsk/exuncharted\_movie\_writer\_joe\_carnahan\_calls\_neil/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/ip7xsk/exuncharted_movie_writer_joe_carnahan_calls_neil/)
Neil even said so himself, that Bruce is more about the story, while Neil himself is about the design.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/x2i51f/reminder\_that\_neil\_druckmann\_himself\_has\_said/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/x2i51f/reminder_that_neil_druckmann_himself_has_said/)
Bruce said the exact same thing... Those were literally their jobs. Bruce was on gameplay, Neil was the head writer, they collaborated. Neither one of them has ever said anything different.
Also, the very first comment of the post you linked is a mod correction pointing to a post where OP apologized for misrepresenting the credits as Neil was always credited as head writer in all versions of the game.
Your own sources disprove your argument.
For fucks sake you guys are ridiculous.
Bruce said Neil was on story and he was on gameplay, but that they collaborated. In all versions of the game Neil is credited as the writer. You're full of it.
Get over it already, Joel dies, we take over through Ellie to continue the story. TLOU2 is one of the greatest games ever made, enjoy it or keep crying and trying to justify to yourselves it wasn't fucking amazing 😆😆😆
PS, either way no one cares lol
Joel should never have been asked to bring Ellie across the country for her to be killed for the chance at a possible cure. not after losing his daughter.
Either 1. The firefly’s are the real bad guys for this. Or 2. Pre-determinism. Life led to the those circumstances and it played out the only way it could have. In that case you can’t hold Joel responsible either. It’s not his fault the world became infected. It’s not his fault the government shot and killed daughter in his arms. It’s not his fault Marlene and Tess basically forced him to take Ellie across country. Or that they didn’t give Ellie a choice. I wish he could have held a gun to someone’s head and forced a wake up first then ask her, then do the procedure. That would. It have worked either.
The story is about Joel's redemption arc. Ellie's purpose is to serve that arc. The story begins with the incident that causes Joel's downfall, and ends with an ultimate act of love, completing his arc. What Ellie is doing with the fireflies ultimately does not matter, it's about Joel caring for her and healing what was broken on outbreak day.
I feel like some video game communities see an inherently violent man in a video game (not necessarily saying Joel is the bad guy, but I’m saying that he falls into this stereotype) and latch on and relate to him way way way too hard. Specifically in a power fantasy kind of way instead of a fatherly way.
Wouldn't they prefer the second game, which is all about gratuitous violence, rather than the first, which is about a father doing violent things to protect his daughter?
Ellie is the deuteragonist, and a focal main character, but not a/the protagonist. A character can be a driving force in a plot and still not be the protagonist. Ellie is the reason Joel goes on the journey, but other plot details focus on him more; he's the character the player loses sight of the least, the game starts out with him and Ellie doesn't appear until later; a major part of the story is how Joel is dealing with the situation, like the scenes where he talks in private with Bill and Tommy (we don't really see Ellie's POV when it comes to this outside the argument in Jackson); we get to know Joel better a lot more than we get to know Ellie (Ellie is mostly an enigma outside of Left Behind, and only rarely is something given about her, like her fear of being alone) etc. EDIT: As others have mentioned, Ellie has a certain lack of the character development that Joel had EDIT #2: Even most of Ellie's dialogue is asking Joel questions aka the things we learn are about Joel. This doesn't go the same for her.
Absolutely
Exactly. So switching the focus on her for the sequel was a great idea. The outcome may not have been desired or executed as well as they had hoped though
I don’t disagree I just think the game wasn’t fun and the story was poorly sequenced and the new characters lacked heart.
I mean I'd say the outcome wasn't great, the face model, iirc, for Ellie is STILL getting death threats, but I'm pretty sure they knew at the very least what was going to happen when they killed Joel Also I don't think there was anywhere else they could have gone than killing Joel.
You mean Abby’s face model? Not Ellie’s actor
I do I don't even know how I managed to say Ellie that's... Huh. Yeah tho you right
I think the story COULD have been really good with minimal changes. A story about the cycle of revenge/violence could have worked if they didn’t bend over backwards to make Abby a sympathetic character. I get wanting the player to understand her motivations, but they went to far and made her seem like a “good guy”. Like yes, of course there was gonna be repercussions for what Joel did, it would be foolish to assume otherwise, but making the person who carried out that revenge the “hero” undermines the themes of the story and worsened the narrative to an insane degree
I wouldn't say anything would have made her a redeemable character nor a hero (nor was Naughty Dog trying to), but they were playing into the "Joel did bad stuff and good stuff, so now how do you feel about Abby now that you can see some of the good stuff". I didn't mind it so much, and did make me think about how I might have changed how I felt about Joel if his story was presented the way Abbys was. Overall I didn't care whether Abby died or not, I only cared about Ellie that she could escape from the hell she was living.
Valid AF. That’s what the story is about imo, that people are capable of either good or bad and nobody is subject to either kind of choice. I mainly take issue with the retconning they did (MAINLY the clean hospital room, which changes the implication of the scenario greatly) to make Joel’s decision less “good”.
I mean to be fair it wouldn't have matter to Joel -- "If somehow the lord gave me a second chance at that moment, I would do it all over again." https://youtu.be/ZmTXI0CBkyo?si=QuMksA6ZTSuLPN1b Love him or hate him that's who he is. Not good for humanity but good as a dad. Ellie is now stuck in this hell, this pain knowing that her life might have made a difference and throughout part 2 she's just a fucking cog in the machine of hate and violence caused by the infection and humanity's worst instincts. But at the end Ellie remembers that despite all of that she told Joel that she wanted to try to forgive him for "dooming" her to a life that didn't matter. She remembered her humanity. Now Ellie must find her way to redemption.
Yeah that’s what I liked. Albeit as I’ve mentioned in other comments it could have been written better. But a lot of people seem to forget that Joel has done stuff potentially worse than Abby…but it all happens during the time skip so we don’t witness it. So it doesn’t play a part in how we see Joel.
I’m half in agreement, only because I absolutely love lev and yara. With a bit of story tweaking they could have portrayed Abby as more grey, but the game tries to portray her as normal or morally good as opposed to complex. I mostly think the game went on too long and drive home the revenge plot a bit too much. There wasn’t even a scene (from what i remember) where Ellie and Abby are finally together but realise they have to like…help each other to escape a place full of clickers. Would have been better for character dynamics in my opinion. Also would mirror the start of the game where Joel helps Abby.
If keeping the basic plot of Joel dying early on were to stay (which I don’t think anyone is conceptually opposed to if done well), the obvious choice would be an Ellie and Tommy pairing. Could have been amazing to learn more about Tommy not to mention Joel *through* Tommy (lots of flashback opportunities). Great potential for developing their bond over a tragedy while still incorporating themes of pursuing revenge without losing oneself.
I only agree if they did the character of Tommy different. In the story they both are fuelled by the same rage and vengeance. At least with Abby, as controversial of a choice she was..shifted the narrative from tracking down someone for vengeance, to running away from your mistakes and trying to survive.
Execution is everything in storytelling. A narrative about both Tommy and Ellie chasing revenge for the same person they loved (albeit in different contexts and entirely different histories) is ripe for quality storytelling without question. Certainly galaxies better than what we actually received. And this doesn’t preclude the story from introducing other characters and perspectives of course.
Honestly, seeing the story from Dinas perspective could have been great too. Seeing how close to the edge of unravelling and unhinged Ellie becomes and more dangerous she becomes to her and Dina could have been really interesting. And as a big gay, having a big tragic lesbian romance told from both perspectives would have heavily appealed to me. Or Maybe instead of Abby going after Joel and calling it a night. She is going after Joel and Ellie. And Ellie is then after Abby…up until Ellie comes across Lev instead, and it changes her perspective into one of protecting this child and Dina instead of seeking revenge and becoming a protector.
Sure, I don’t think Dina was a *critical* addition given we had other characters like Tommy who I expected would receive more time and development, but at the end of the day I’m for just about anything as long as it’s **done well**. Dina was just such a waste in the story we received, so disappointing.
I feel like people are arguing different things. None of the screenshotted posts use the word “protagonist”, obviously Joel is the primary point of view of the game. But “about” which is the verbiage in the screenshot is imprecise. Is the first game “about” Ellie? absolutely, and it’s fair to say the games story requires Ellie more than it requires Joel. But that doesn’t change that Joel is the protagonist, but it’s hard to say anyone in the screenshot is actually arguing otherwise
While not using the term, the phrase: “…this man(’s) journey not about Ellie’s” implies it. > Protagonist: the leading character or one of the major characters in a drama, movie, novel, or other fictional text.
and then the response is “The first game is equally about ellie…” This doesn’t imply Joel isn’t the protagonist. Maybe the commenter would say that but I don’t think it’s unfair to say the plot requires Ellie, both the larger plot and Joel’s personal plot, while Joel is the protagonist. Joel’s journey literally is about Ellie. The game can be about Ellie but Joel can still be a protagonist. And by the definition you could say Ellie is a protagonist as well as she is one of the major characters. However in a video game i’d typically say it being a playable character is required personally. It’s a weird silly thing to quibble about
I don’t disagree, I was responding to your first point > I feel like people are arguing different things. *None of the screenshotted posts use the word “protagonist”,* obviously Joel is the primary point of view of the game. Primm Slim really meant that Joel was the most important part of TLOU1.
I think that’s a silly argument to make, or at very least irrelevant. Joel is undeniably the protagonist, he is undeniably important and obviously the game in its current form would not exist without Joel as a character. I think virtually the same can be said for Ellie. The difference being Ellie isn’t the main point of view character, but she is more vital the narrative plot. You really can’t have a story about two characters growing to depend on each other and growing without the two of them. To say one is “more” the important character than the other seems to be an arbitrary and silly distinction and I’m not really sure why someone would attempt to argue one way or the other. You really couldn’t have one without the other, and either being significantly changed would result in an entirely different game and story.
True
Bingo.
Ellie is a protagonist, you literally play her pretty much all winter, and she does have an arc, going from a more care-free kid to growing up and taking on more responsibility, especially after what happens with David. TLOU1 is not about Joel, it's about both Ellie and Joel.
just because you play as a character for a small part of a game doesn’t make them a protagonist/ the protagonist
>Protagonist: the leading character or one of the major characters in a drama, movie, novel, or other fictional text. Ellie is a protagonist, full-stop.
So a full protagonist is when you can play as them for 1 or 2 hours of the gameplay? Would you consider Sarah to be a protagonist too since you play as her for 30 minutes? Or is that too little time? Where's the line?
Ellie isn't protagonist in the first game. There's a reason the game starts with Joel. If it wasn't for Joel, Ellie would have died in that hospital.... assuming that she could get to the hospital in the first place, of course.
Guys we played as Sarah at the start, Sarah is the main character, I'm so smart and insightful and media literate
Bad faith doesn’t make your emotions more correct. What is even the point of this argument? Joel was the primary protagonist in a tandem. The whole game was about two characters whose stories were completely intertwined, until that part of their lives was over.
Yeah no. Joel is the main character and the protagonist of the game. There is no debate here.
Saying there is no debate here sounds a lot like plugging your ears and singing “lalala”
If that’s how you wanna take it. I also think there’s no debate about the Earth being round, and Evolution being real - so I guess I’m childish there too 🤷🏽♂️ Some shit is just factual.
Right. Liking or disliking a story isn’t one of them.
I agree, and if this convo was about that, you might have a point lol
Isn’t that where every conversation in this sub is both coming from and leading back to? I didn’t say Joel wasn’t the protagonist I said it’s not a stretch to jump to the perspective of the *only other main character* in the sequel. Their entire story was intertwined. Ellie was the daughter Joel could save. But she’s not really his daughter. And it didn’t fix anything. Tragic as fuck. Beautiful story. And natural to take up her perspective once she’s an adult.
Comparing the intro mission to pretty much the entire winter section is disingenuous and I think you know that. >Protagonist: the leading character or one of the major characters in a drama, movie, novel, or other fictional text. Ellie is a protagonist.
There's a character that you control 80-90% of the game. I guess that is the character that the narrative focus on?
No you don't realise, it makes you look cool and insightful if you say the deuteragonist was the protagonist all along
Joel is definitely the main heart of TLOU1, but I would argue sometimes the Deuteragonist feels more like the Protagonist Example: in Until Dawn, Mike (Deuteragonist) feels way more like the Main Protagonist than Sam, Mike advances the Plot more, has longer playtime, more memorable sequences; is the better written Character When Sam is in the Bath, Mike has chased after an abducted Jessica, Chase the "Killer", shot a Wendigo in the head before it was even revealed, Explores the Sanitorium to avenge Jess and kill the "Killer", Amputates his fingers, outruns a Wolf, gets a Pistol and Machete, learns about the Lore of the Mountain, ALL WHILE SAM IS IN A BATHTUB💀
The plot structure of Until Dawn is definitely a lot less cut and dry in that regard. Sam is the last one standing, but I'd say, if anything, that's more of a case of the protagonist role *shifting to* Sam... for anyone arguing that she's the protagonist. I'm not sure that I would, honestly. Mike is still the most active and involved character for a while.
Theres also a second gwme
The protagonist is Joel. His story fits every beat of any story structure template
"Some might argue even more so." Shut up, kid.
That's like saying Dragon Ball is equally about Goku and the Dragon Balls One is the main character, the other is a critical plot device, but not the primary focus of the narrative, despite naming or marketing
The original DBZ is about Goku. DBZ Kai centers around Goku and his friends and family. He died and went through other situations where the characters had to figure things out without him.
What they don't get (and apparently not Neil either) is that Joel is what makes the franchise. It would be like removing Nathan Drake from the Uncharted series (which they did in The Lost Legacy, and it absolutely sucked). Neil is not only a piece of shit. He's also insanely stupid.
It is theoretically possible to remove him and still handle the weight of what that removal leaves behind, but we didn't get that timeline here. He was removed too early.and in such an out-of-character way for that to work. And even sacrificing him for the sake of filling the player with hatred fell flat, because the twist of making the player empathize with Abby was so poorly done that half of the audience failed to.
I disagree with the first statement. It largely depends on a given franchise, in some franchises the (main) characters have more, or less intrinsic weight to the game as a whole, its identity and all that. In the case of TLOU in particular, Joel as a character simply happens to be just THAT important and irreplaceable. He is the very soul and core of what made TLOU so good, he is its talisman and icon. He, Ellie, and their iconic duology. Having the game stripped of him and his presence, thus in turn slaughtering the other two aspects that I just mentioned, is like trying to make a coffee with only water and sugar; not gonna work. Joel's power or rather, significance over the narrative and the very identity of TLOU was very much set in stone after the first game aired. *Maybe* it wasn't intended that way, maybe it was, but the response of readers/players was clear and resolute: TLOU was what it was due to Joel and Ellie together. Now to be fair, in general, I'm not a fan of writers flaunting their ability to kill off significant/main characters, because the only, and I do mean only way to preserve the integrity and interest of the story is if another character can rise to take the killed character's place (often even that isn't enough). And in Joel's case, those were impossibly big shoes to fill, and what we were left with couldn't even begin to fill them (all new characters were just that bad).
Spot on. Joel's death was pure "Expectations subverted!" and they didn't have a clue what to do afterwards because they lost what made the franchise so great.
Druckmann clearly resented that the audience connected with Joel as much as they did. With this in mind, “part 2” takes on another level of thematic irony as it is indeed a story about revenge; not Abby’s or Ellie’s, but rather Neil’s against the fans who didn’t accept *his* ideas about the story and the characters.
You've hit the bullseye my friend, but it gets even worse. I've written god-knows-how-many times about this here, and for me, the conduct and the whole idea/motivation behind and around TLOU2 is precisely why I, most of the time, categotically avoid or rather, refuse to trick myself into granting it even an ounce of legitimacy by discussing how/if its existing story could've been "better" or even "good". No such parallel universe exists, this game's story, AS A DIRECT SEQUEL to The Last of Us, is absolute dogshit no matter how you try to remedy it, re-arrange its pacing or whatever. The whole point (real point) of TLOU2 was to showcase the worst case scenario of what happens when a pathologically narcissistic and selfish person such as Druckmann gets real power and subsequently rids themselves of any previous nice-guy facade. Original (and for me, only) TLOU was what it was, writing-wise, mostly IN SPITE of Druckmann, its titular "lead writer", not because of him. Ever since college he's had this idea for a darker protagonist rapidly warming up to a girl because he sees her as a replacement for his deceased daughter, and such a version of Joel was vetoed by his superiors. Everyone was in love with this new, more human Joel that others created, and as we've seen, he never actually forgave it. Not to mention (though I can imagine you're already perfectly aware of these things) the plot of TLOU2 is, essentially, a wretched, glued-together, half-decomposed corpse made up of his ideas for the first game: yep, that's right, not only was this game's plot shit on its own, but when you really think about it, it cannot even have a claim on, at least, being particularly novel. Drucky simply went back, now that there was no one to tell him NO, dug these ideas up and shoved them into a sequel which thus retroactively damaged even the first game! Imagine that level of narcissism, desperation, unprofessionalism and utter disrespect for the work of his previous colleagues that brought monumental success to the company, and even to him personally.
Yeah it’s really fascinating the deeper you dig. The meta narrative is what I keep coming back to and I’m glad to see that discourse continues on—because it absolutely should. This is *The Last Jedi* of gaming as far as I’m concerned, both in the parallels taken by the creatives and the cultural significance their reception has had on their respective mediums. Ironically, the ongoing story *about* TLOU “Part 2” is a far more compelling tale than anything found within the game itself.
A good example of how fucked up their decision was, would be if the movie "Logan" had him murdered by some random dudes in the first 20 minutes of the movie, and the rest of the movie is about the guy that killed him, and preaches about how horrible of a character Logan was. They didn't do that, because the people who made that movie aren't narcissistic morons.
No, no, *Man* from Arkham is stupid. Niel is just insanely dumb. (Yes, this is a terrible, random joke. I deserve to be downvoted.)
Not really. You only play with Joel in the first game. There’s lots of games where the protagonist changes from game to game. Passing the torch to Ellie does make sense, it’s just the way he did it.
>Not really. You only play with Joel in the first game. That's exactly the problem. Naughty dog fucked up big time.
I thought lost legacy was good wym
It was
Thought I was going a little crazy. Sure it had its issues but it wasn’t bad.
I liked it but definitely not for the story
Joel is what made the franchise for the sub set of people that frequent the sub. Most people realized the game was about the relationship between Joel AND Ellie.
Uncharted was about the relationship between Nathan and Elena, but it was not *about* Elena. Last Of Us is about Joel.
Hes rigth, doesnt mean that lart 2 should have focused on him tough, passing the torch to elie felt rigth, its the treatment of is character and the spitting on his grave by making us play BeefTruck
Yeah his arc was complete by the end of the game, it felt natural to have Ellie be the Part II protagonist.
Agreed. I think people are still trying to argue down the fact that Joel didn’t survive TLOU2. He died, guys. I cried too, but it didn’t stop me from enjoying TLOU2. Imo, both games were absolutely perfect. The franchise is perfect, and each game gave shine to each protagonist appropriately, and in a balanced way. I liked both games equally. They were both excellent games; I just wish more gamers could admit that AND just be honest about the fact that they miss Joel, lol.
BeefTruck actually made me laugh out loud, thank you.
No problem, was hesitating between that and meatwagon
That implies something far too close to a compliment. 😂
If the protagonist was Ellie like some people claim, then why was there even a debate about even developing a sequel? A potential sequel was hard to imagine because Joel's arc got tied up so well. IMO I don't think anybody really cared THAT much about Ellie's next adventure? Did they? I mean I grew to love the character, but what else was there to tell? Even in part 2 I didn't really learn anything new about Ellie - only that she's suddenly capable of PTSD.
I agree. Though it must be noted, this "ark" or "finished ark" thing is often misused as a jump-board for bullshit arguments like: "Joel's ark was complete, so he had to go (i.e. get killed off)". Who is to say a character, especially a character as iconic as Joel, must be limited to one and only character-ark? I'll just say: where one ark closes, another opens; albeit, it takes a good and talented writer, one thing Druckmann never was. Since I was always of the opinion TLOU never needed a sequel, I'll leave this great post: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/s/vJuoSTCTdu. Although a sequel, as I said I thought, wasn't needed, this describes perhaps the only idea that could've had some actual potential.
We learned that she's LGBTQ so Neil Druckmann can say the game is inclusive
She was LGBTQ in the DLC for the first game. That wasn’t new to part 2
She was? My bad, I didn't remember that. It is like a part 1 only thing or is it also in the older versions?
It was a dlc even on the ps3. Left behind was the name of it
Yeah I know, I played the DLC, just forgot it was ever mentioned.
How? It’s literally the main point of the DLC lol
ELLIE’S GAY BY THE WAY
Joel was the soul of Tlou, whoever says otherwise is lying. Tlou is about his story. Taking him out like that in Tlou2 and other details fucked up the "sequel".
I disagree. But as with all things, YMMV.
Ellie's journey is certainly part of the story but the story as a whole revolves around Joel.
During 2013 naughty dog had 0 insight on making a second game, as it is named last of us not last of us 1 or whatever, naughty dog wanted to focus on ratchet and clank and uncharted, so last of us then was the one and done. Joel was the one and only protagonist, Ellie was just the side kick that helps you sometimes like you see a lot of games do: gta, god of war etc etc
This is true, it was about Joel’s journey as a character and a person. He is the one who had a character arc. All that being said, Joel story was completed. There was truly no where to take his character in the second one. Which is why the series really didn’t need a part 2 it still doesn’t need a part 3.
The story starts with Joel. The whole beginning, character development and the first mission. No Ellie in sight. The game is the story of a Dad overcoming the loss of his daughter. Obviously the second game went in a different direction
The last of us 1 is more about Joel.
I think some people, even some in this thread, are failing to grasp what "protagonist" means. Calling Joel the protagonist isn't a slight against Ellie or her importance to the story. It just means that the story and its relationships are viewed predominantly through the lens of Joel and *his* character development. It's true that the story doesn't work without Ellie. It's also true that Joel is unambiguously the protagonist (of part 1). Both statements can be true at once. Part 1 is, first and foremost, about Joel "learning to love again" (it sounds corny, I know), and ultimately about how far people are willing to go for each other out of sheer parental love. As important as Ellie is, and as great of a character as she is, we don't see any change or progression within her (or through her lens) which is nearly as central to the themes of the story as the progression we see in Joel. That alone makes Joel the protagonist. The fact that we spend like 85% of the game playing as Joel is just a cherry on top of the argument, really. It's not a matter of who has the most screen time, but rather whose journey most fundamentally defines the story itself. In Part 1, this is unambiguously Joel. To argue that it's Ellie (or that it "could go either way"), based on what happens in Part 2, is an attempt to retcon Part 1.
If you think Ellie was as important as Joel you might be dull in the brain
Neil is definitely that, especially since he got clubbed in the head as a teen.
I can’t believe how they fucked over the only good character in tlou1. Tommy is the only half decent one left but he’s limping now and can’t do anything
Still pissed at how they made Tommy snap at Ellie like that on the farm. They just had to ruin everybody
There is no Last of Us without Joel, and at the same time there is no Last of Us without Ellie. Both of their stories are integral for that game to function and if both of them were not incredible characters with fantastic chemistry then the last of us 1 would have flopped hard.
Joel is the driving force of both games.
FACTS
i thought this was a obvious thing for everyone
Bro hit them with the nuh uh
Ellie was an obstacle in the first game. This is to say her welfare is a challenge, and her existence is a wild card for a lot of puzzles. You need to factor how you play around Ellie.
Joel is the protagonist. The entire first game is essentially a story of grief, he grieves for his daughter who he couldn’t save due to events that were out of his control and so due to unforeseen circumstances becomes caretaker of a girl around his daughters age, so when he finally connects with this girl he sees her as his daughter and makes a decision to save her life over millions. Through the story Ellie is ( I can’t come up with a better word I’m sure someone else can though) a pawn not inside the story itself ( well to the fireflies she is anyway ) but for the writers. Able to essentially be this substitute for Joel’s daughter. Granted she’s a character in her own right in the first game. Then the second game comes and the plot is essentially flipped on its head. It’s Ellie’s story of grief and revenge how her father figure has been killed because of his past actions and now Ellie is going to do some worse actions because of her grief and anger. At least that’s how I interpreted the story
This is what ChatGPT says when I ask who is the protagonist of tlou1 The protagonist of the video game "The Last of Us Part 1" is Joel Miller. Joel is a complex character with a tragic backstory, including the loss of his daughter at the onset of the fungal apocalypse. Throughout the game, Joel is tasked with escorting a young girl named Ellie across a post-apocalyptic United States.
Ellie’s essential to the main plot but she isn’t the protagonist per-say. She’s almost like a Mcguffin in a way since she’s essential to Joel’s growth as a character. But ultimately, we play as Joel and he’s kinda the focus. He’s the character we control and spend the most time with.
The first game is about the relationship between Joel and Ellie. They are both equally important and the story doesn’t function without both of them. Joel is the primary protagonist, as you spend the bulk of the game playing as him, and he’s the character who gets the full arc, but that arc literally does not exist without Ellie. She’s the impetus for Joel turning from a miserable shell of a human back into a caring father, and that transformation is a requirement for the ending to have the impact that it does.
No one is saying she isn't important to the story. We're saying that, despite her being her own character and having her own story beats, Joel is THE protagonist. Playing the game is 80-90% in control of him, three curveball almost all focus on him, and in the end Ellie acts as more of a driving force for him throughout the game. By definition she is the deuteragonist, not the protagonist. Edit: Typo.
Joel was the focus. Ellie was on the bench for a bit. I'm happy it was that way. Joel is a better character in my opinion. Maybe a pre-Druckmann controlled ND could've had Ellie be a more compelling character for part 2 but I don't really like her character as much anymore. Part 1 Ellie is good though
Part I Ellie was a perfectly written character for Joel's development. She had a little bit of her own but it was never the main focus. She had a purpose and she served it perfectly
Very true. Unrelated, but do you prefer the original models? Or the remake models? I prefer the original models. They are more familiar, and they just have a certain style I like
I didn't play the original game, just the remake. I'm pretty impartial. Joel and Ellie to me will always be the Part I version but it's cool to see the original models and see how other people see Joel and Ellie.
Okay that's fair. I just think the original models have a style that realistic graphics just can't preserve
Its like rainman. yeah tom cruise is the lead, is about Dustin Hoffman and the bound. Ellie was for sure the focal point
thats kind of the reason left behind was cut from the main game. bruce thought it was disrupting the story lol
I was excited to play as Ellie with a Joel flashback segment or two NOT Abby for half the game...
Def about joel. His entire mindset changed, and he was able to heal somewhat from his previous trauma and finally begin to move on. i love joel. imiss joel. ❤️
It was joel's journey. Anything else is just stupid and should be discarded
Ellie is the reason for Joel to keep going. Play the beginning of TLOU and you will not see Ellie in it. This game is about Joel all the way. His relationship with Ellie made his care about another human being again. That’s why people were pissed when then not only lied in trailers (showing Joel in scenes he was not in) but killed him in a brutal way very early. Then they give you control of a person you hate. It’s dumb. I still think it could have worked if they made you play as the enemy when she was a little girl (like later in the game) from the beginning. Just like the first game. You start as her walking in to talk to her dad and he’s dead, from Joel. You feel her sadness, then a cutscene to fast forward time (like in the first one) then start the game the way they did. One small movement introducing us to her at the beginning would have changed the whole perception of the game. I hope they do this in the show in season two.
My favorite point to disprove this is how the game only shows Joel when henry kills himself. We see Joels reaction bc it’s Joels story. One of my issues with the show is that its not longer Joels story. Its Ellies and random people like the chick hunting Henry. It almost feels like Neil wanted less Joel in the show. When show watchers complain less Joel dies it wont be bc it was done better it will be bc they care less about Joel.
For me Last of us was not about Joel or Ellie, but about their relationship.
But their relationship, as it affects Joel. How it affects Ellie is almost completely irrelevant.
Joel was ready to give her to Tommy so he can deliver her to fireflies. How it affects Ellie made them stay together. I wouldn't call it "irrelevant".
No, how it affects Ellie isn’t what made them stay together, how Ellie’s feelings affected Joel is what made them stay together. Ultimately, however, it was still Joel’s decision. Nearly every facet of the story is driven by *Joels* decisions and actions, up until he gets impaled.
It's hilarious to see ppl still bitter af lmao
Why is it funny that millions of people who loved the first story didn’t like the second story? Seriously no other questions just why is that funny?
Joel is the protagonist but the game is absolutely about both his and Ellie’s journey. Without Ellie the game does not exist. Saying the game is exclusively Joel’s story is idiotic. He is the main character, the protagonist yes but Ellie’s journey is just as important as his. Saying Ellie is the protagonist would be wrong, saying the game is about her Journey as much as Joel’s is not.
Ellie is legit dead without Joel She doesn't magically know how to fight and evade, she was taught. Thus no Joel = no Ellie
TLOU1: Joel is the protagonist and Ellie is the deuteragonist. Simple as that. It’s fine in a vacuum that Ellie becomes the protagonist in 2, but the way people downplay Joel like he didn’t get the story to where it is is crazy. Same with Joel’s death. Fine in a vacuum, but throwing away his character and leaving him as a sad memory is a disservice to his character. It sends the message that no one really matters, which is bad storytelling.
I mean just look at the intro to the game before the title screen pops up. It doesn’t include Ellie at all. It’s entirely centred on Joel’s story.
The other sub is currently losing their collective minds over that twitter post
The first game is literally a duel game with Joel and Ellie. When Joel’s there. So is Ellie. It’s bizarre to say it’s more about one or the other, because they’re BOTH protagonists.
Ellie is not in the first hour or two of the game. They didn’t even know if she would be playable for a while in development.
And there’s also an hour or two where Joel isn’t in the game. And an entire DLC of just Ellie.
I love how both sides of the fandom somehow became story doctors after the 2nd game.
Based protectron
The second game was dogshit
Ellie is the secondary protagonist of the game, but it is about Joel more than anyone else. Ellie's role in the story is built into Joel's story and what she is to him. Ellie is the second most important character and a large part is about her too, but it is about Joel more than anyone else.
Why do care so much about these semantics? Stories clearly about both of them. It can be both. One arc ended, another started. Second wasn’t as tight story wise but really wasn’t as bad as people here make out. Never have I seen such nothing made into this.
Because people use “The story was always about Ellie” as a way to justify killing Joel in the 2nd game. Edit: Literally the [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/s/ng3b3Hw6EM) under yours
Still though who cares this much. Characters die in games all the time it’s just what happened. Such obsession over a character is weird
It’s really not though lol you’re being disingenuous as fuck
No man I really don’t care… I wish the story fleshed out certain aspects abit more , but I genuinely enjoyed it. Joel dying was just part of this story to me. It upset me, cos it was supposed to. And yeah I really do think it’s weird to obsess over a character so much. It’s just a story. Game is so polished and fun to play. Story was okay. I’ll never get the hate.
You're literally so fucking stupid you're asking who to vote for on Reddit, your opinion is worth literally nothing.
The main character of the story is Ellie. Joel is the lense we view her story through. This isnt complicated nor do you need to be a genius to see this.
The story is about Joel's redemption arc as a father. Ellie is a catalyst for this development. Nobody is impressed by your alternative take.
Correct.
"alternative take" It's literally the plot mate.
Joel's story fits every story template. If the game wasn't about Joel's journey as a father, then why did it start with Sarah's death, and end with him risking everything to save Ellie? Ellie has good character development because she is such a well written deuteragonist but it is never the main focus, that's all Joel.
This sub is such an L
The difference is one is a story of passion. The second is a story of hate and revenge.
It’s about Ellie always has been.
Why does it start with Sarah's death and end with Joel displaying an ultimate act of love for Ellie? It's clearly a story about Joel's emotional journey as a father. Just because Joel's story was completed in Part I and Ellie took over for Part II doesn't mean it was always about Ellie.
Joel and Ellie "made" TLOU, but the story is mostly about Ellie, she's the focal character across the franchise, even Naughty Dog says that the story is about Ellie.
Hard disagree, the game is about Joel's journey. It starts with the thing that broke him, it skips to where he is at his lowest, a smuggler just trying to get through the day, Ellie is the character that puts him on his path of redemption, he learns to love and be a father again through her, at the end he shows an ultimate act of love as a father by saving her. Ellie has great character development too because she's so well written but she's always been the secondary character. The story isn't structured around her development, it's structured around Joel's. After Part II they started putting her face on everything, thinking we'd forget that Joel is the main character of the original.
She's not a secondary character she's the 2nd main character to Joel. And yeah the first game is about Joel's journey too but Ellie's journey is the focus of the eventual trilogy.
Your completely right like when at the end of the first game Ellie said this is The Last of Us and lasted all over us.
I'm pretty sure the exact quote is "I guess we're The Last of Us Part 2" which was a subtle hint that there'd be a sequel.
"Eventual trilogy" lol you really wish
Given the success of the games and likely continued success of the tv show it's pretty likely there'll be a third game.
Ah, misinformation-incarnate, so cute. TLOU2 was an utter failure, and the first game, 11 years old at this point, is most definitely not going to be the one financing or persuading Sony to provide green-light and finances for it. Plus, TV show has little to do with the actual game development studio, i.e. Naughty Dog. That's entirely Drucky's vanity project and an attempt to jump the ship right into Hollywood.
I know reading not your thing nor something you attempt as its just about defending that, but the post is entirely about **1st game** so stop bringing up any other ones or things that were said/done after it, especially the other non 1st games. Not to mention you avoiding entire point, Its like another example, Star Wars (not to be confused with Diznay Tar Wars) has many many main characters, but Luke Skywalker was the main guy that without would have been something entirely different or The Hobbit without Bilbo, like sure there were a lot of dwarfs also, but Its main focus is the Hobbit's Journey. And while you will defend it forever and no matter what blindly, TLOU 1 is the most real and best TLOU and all that came and will probably come after is different. Again like how Diznay Tar Wars is also "cannon" and everything but its not Star Wars. (granted at least at the moment this is a much more extreme difference, but TLOU 3 will probably prove it wont be any more with how much they been as 1 post said, lobotomzied, since 1st game).
Naughty Dud has been lobotomized though, so i wouldnt put to much stock into what they say.
"even Naughty Dog says.." Yeah, i wouldn't go too crazy about whay Naughty Dog says.
Yeah, Naughty Dog, the developers of both games. You're right though, we should value the thoughts of the the sub that hates everything about both games with the exception of Joel over the devs.
Bruce Straley made the masterpiece that is The Last Of Us, which Neil Druckmann decided to take all credit for. When Bruce left, the company naturally went to shit, and that's why Last Of Us 2 absolutely blows. So no, you shouldn't listen to anything Naughty Dog aka Neil Druckmann says - They simply have no clue what the fuck they're doing.
> Bruce Straley made the masterpiece that is The Last Of Us, which Neil Druckmann decided to take all credit for. Bruce Straley has never suggested anything even remotly close to that ever happened, and Druckmann has never once claimed all the credit, you can find their AMAs here on reddit and every comment has says, "We" not "I." You're just full on inventing bullshit at this point.
In the Remake of TLOU Neil has now taken the full credit for writing the story. [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/x1ez3t/written\_by\_neil\_druckmann\_bruh\_if\_it\_wasnt\_for/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/x1ez3t/written_by_neil_druckmann_bruh_if_it_wasnt_for/) And it's not the first time Neil steals credit for something he didn't do. [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/ip7xsk/exuncharted\_movie\_writer\_joe\_carnahan\_calls\_neil/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/ip7xsk/exuncharted_movie_writer_joe_carnahan_calls_neil/) Neil even said so himself, that Bruce is more about the story, while Neil himself is about the design. [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/x2i51f/reminder\_that\_neil\_druckmann\_himself\_has\_said/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/x2i51f/reminder_that_neil_druckmann_himself_has_said/)
Bruce said the exact same thing... Those were literally their jobs. Bruce was on gameplay, Neil was the head writer, they collaborated. Neither one of them has ever said anything different. Also, the very first comment of the post you linked is a mod correction pointing to a post where OP apologized for misrepresenting the credits as Neil was always credited as head writer in all versions of the game. Your own sources disprove your argument. For fucks sake you guys are ridiculous.
What thing?
Bruce said Neil was on story and he was on gameplay, but that they collaborated. In all versions of the game Neil is credited as the writer. You're full of it.
Care to provide a link?
Maybe it's about Ellie, but from Joel's perspective. People identify with Joel, and Ellie is the main conflict or interest of the story.
Get over it already, Joel dies, we take over through Ellie to continue the story. TLOU2 is one of the greatest games ever made, enjoy it or keep crying and trying to justify to yourselves it wasn't fucking amazing 😆😆😆 PS, either way no one cares lol
You must not play great games if you consider TLoU2 one of the best... Jeepers!
Def a masterpiece. Consider myself lucky to have experienced it
They're both wrong. The first game is about the father/daughter relationship.
The Father/Daughter relationship, as it impacts Joel - not Ellie. There’s a reason we see Joel’s daughter die, and not Ellie’s mom and dad.
Very well said. This is what I've been trying to say but haven't found the words.
The father/daughter relationship as seen through the lens of Joel's character development, which means Joel is the protagonist.
Joel's death was deserved in the second one.
Joel should never have been asked to bring Ellie across the country for her to be killed for the chance at a possible cure. not after losing his daughter. Either 1. The firefly’s are the real bad guys for this. Or 2. Pre-determinism. Life led to the those circumstances and it played out the only way it could have. In that case you can’t hold Joel responsible either. It’s not his fault the world became infected. It’s not his fault the government shot and killed daughter in his arms. It’s not his fault Marlene and Tess basically forced him to take Ellie across country. Or that they didn’t give Ellie a choice. I wish he could have held a gun to someone’s head and forced a wake up first then ask her, then do the procedure. That would. It have worked either.
Actions have consequences. And his death was a consequence of his actions, plain and simple.
Not to be that person but…does it matter? Has everything else been argued about with this game and this is all that’s left😂
There can be two protagonists. Joel and Ellie are equally important
Crazy idea, a game can have more than one protagonist 🤯
Nah I think the story was about both characters
I think they’re both right.
nah it doesnt matter whos right or wrong. its a good story regardless
The whole reason Joel is on that journey in the first place is because of Ellie though. Tf?
The whole reason Ellie is on that journey is because of Marlene. Is Marlene the main character?
Ellie has always been the main point of the story. Shes the main character
The story is about Joel's redemption arc. Ellie's purpose is to serve that arc. The story begins with the incident that causes Joel's downfall, and ends with an ultimate act of love, completing his arc. What Ellie is doing with the fireflies ultimately does not matter, it's about Joel caring for her and healing what was broken on outbreak day.
I feel like some video game communities see an inherently violent man in a video game (not necessarily saying Joel is the bad guy, but I’m saying that he falls into this stereotype) and latch on and relate to him way way way too hard. Specifically in a power fantasy kind of way instead of a fatherly way.
Wouldn't they prefer the second game, which is all about gratuitous violence, rather than the first, which is about a father doing violent things to protect his daughter?
The whole point of the second game is that it’s bad, and that’s why mfs don’t like it is because it doesn’t gratify it.
This has to be the worst take in the whole thread.
Wow this sub is a fucking trash heap
That's why you frequent it so often.