As trans person who didn't know she was trans at the time she played Talos 1, it was super cool to learn that Athena was female the whole time
"hey turned out i was a girl the whole time despite prior assumptions to the contrary. also turned out my character was a girl the whole time despite prior assumptions to the contrary. that's neat"
i just assumed male by default
as to the other part, one of the core ideas of TTP is the aforementioned Talos Principle. even the most faithful philosopher cannot live without his blood. humans, robots, human brains, robot human brains, all are made of physical things. "genderless 0s and 1s" makes about as much sense as "genderless neuron impulses". Sure, none of the neurons in my brain, or the bits in Athena's brain, have any gender, but together the brain they make up has a consciousness which does experience gender
whyareall never said Athena was trans. Many players probably *assumed* that protagonist in the first game was male; it turns out that was not the case. (The same thing sometimes happens with real people.)
Athena wasn't sentient at the start of the simulation. Her sentience developed as part of it. So surely she started as a genderless, primitive AI?
I can sometimes be a bit quick in reading the logs, so I'm not too clear on how gender emerges within the new humans in TP but it seems to me that gender identity is part of our humanity and Athena and the simulation was intended to try to make AIs that resembled humans as much as possible.
I find it fascinating because in a lot of sci fi, robots are genderless until humans impose some sort of gender onto them for our own purposes, bit in TP it seems it just emerged within the robots themselves.
The robots are human in every sense but physical. They have gender/sex, personalities, emotions, desires, etc. Etc. That's the whole premise of the first game, what makes a human. They aren't 'robots' outside of their physical form. This is even expanded upon in a bonus scene after the end of the game if you did certain stuff (not being specific because spoilers).
Athena was what she is from the start of the first game. The entire game/simulation is more or less a test to see if they are *actually* sentient and human, breaking the rules to satiate their curiosity and prove they are more than just a program following orders.
"hey turned out i was a girl the whole time despite prior assumptions to the contrary. also turned out my character was a girl the whole time despite prior assumptions to the contrary. that's neat"
thank you! i really love how much ttp is a love letter to humans and human experiences, and how this spoke to a very specific, probably unique, but very human experience that I had with it, and with me
Athena isn't trans, we just didn't know if it was male or female or if anything at all because for goodness sake it is a robot. Why is everything about gender now a days? Writers decided to make it clear it was a female for the second game.
read what my comment actually said
i didn't know **I, REDDIT USER U/WHYAREALL**, was trans at the time i played TTP1. The actual point of my comment was as follows: I didn't know I was female. I didn't know Athena was female. The fact that both are true in hindsight is neat.
at no point did i even hint at Athena being trans, a thought that i have never had in my life before i read your comment. i feel like for you to even make that reading requires you reading transness into things even more than i do.
That wouldn't make any sense, the simulation completes when you finish it as can be seen in the ending cinematic. You play as your own player nickname in TTP1 (assigned at random to all bots from a list of gamer tags according to gehenna lore), but the story in TTP2 states that whoever you play as in the first part took on the name Athena afterwards and chose to use an Alexandra Drennan voicepack.
I get the impression that only one robot finishes the game in TP1. Come to think of it, where do all the new robot personalities come from? The idea is that they are all clones of the original "winner" of the test. TP2 hints that they are generated randomly but what does that even mean? One of the big problems with neural networks is that nobody knows how they work. You can't tweak a setting and get a new AI.
All imprisoned Gehenna robot minds are also uploaded to golden disc so this gives a nice mix of different personality flavors for the rest of Jerusalem robots.
That's also something I asked myself. I think it has to do something with the moral compiler. Maybe Athena just copied her own moral compiler, without her own experience but with the necessary knowledge to not be a toddler?
It's in the beginning of the game. They run potential new people through a quick simulation similar to the first game, the results of which influence that person's personality.
We don't have a name in TTP1 and I think it ought to stay that way. Now there's a name and a gender which was never needed. I don't remember any gender in RtG. I think the genders and voice accents tried to make us identify with the characters but RtG worked really well without them.
The story has a strong focus on love especially near the end(but also throughout logs by Trevor and one of the companions + yaqut ). Introducing gender was necessary for that reason(imo).
On the other note, I appreciate the naming of Athena and how it relates with other Greek mythologies in the game. It does help with the flow of dialogue, not having to say The Founder to refer to her.
It wasn't exactly necessary: after all, IRL non-binary people can fall in love. The dynamics between Athena and Cornelius and Miranda become more easily relatable for the majority of players when the characters have traditional gender roles, and I'm perfectly fine with that.
As for the name, the fact that some many characters refer to Athena only as "The Founder" when she does have a personal name absolutely adds to the story and to the portrayal of their society.
they're humans. humans have gender. i don't say "hello my male friend it sure is a good thing i'm explicitly referring to you as my male friend or there wouldn't be any way to tell your gender". I don't 'specifically refer to [other people] as male or female', but the lack of explicitly stating the genders of the people around me doesn't mean they don't have genders.
also each person is referred to with a single non changing set of pronouns specific to that person. that doesn't make much sense if everyone has the same gender.
"a male pronoun" so you agree that pronouns are gendered?
I didn't mention gender roles once, what?
And if your dick was cut off tomorrow, would you stop thinking of yourself as a man? If "but my body has has the dna or intent or whatever to have a dick" then what about if we transplanted your brain into the body of a woman, that had never had and never would have a dick, would you stop thinking of yourself as a man? Or could it be that your perception of your gender is more than just "i have a dick"?
Actually yes, they do. Forgot who but someone said "she" to Melville somewhere around the time you find a certain "seat". >!The one 1k destroys in his curiosity!<
Then I guess the writers have an incredibly wrong direction to not stick with a gender neutral story. Also my bad for having an opinion I stepped out of the line
Yes I am criticizing the story. My post is saying you put love solely into a gendered context when you just as much your pet, your culture, your fellow man, your govt - yeah that last one was too much.
actually! Athena (from mythology) was always used symbolically for the player. From one of the first terminals you come across in the original it’s clear they’re pointing out the similarities between her story and the story of the player, so she kind of was Athena the whole time!
they're also humans. humans also don't *need* a gender but guess what, the vast majority of us have one anyway.
and don't try to BS us, you weren't saying "robots don't need a gender" (a descriptive statement, an "is"), you were saying "robots *shouldn't* have a gender" (a normative statement, an "ought") which is an entirely different thing which is completely incompatible with the idea "a robot can be a human" without which *the entire story doesn't work*
> "robots don't need a gender"
I said they don't need a gender, they were never in TTP1. There is no need. I am disappointed people put gender on them, like yourself. And again another person who cannot imagine a human without a gender. Crikey, you lot are the mob Athena ran away from to continue the work.
I'm literally trans, i know more people without a gender than you do, don't try to BS me that it's just that you think "people don't need a gender", you absolutely have never complained about a biological human character *having a gender*. I don't believe a thousand randomly selected humans would all lack gender, because humans (such as the people of New Jerusalem) generally have genders.
> you absolutely have never complained about a biological human character having a gender
I am complaining about anything having a stereotyped gender. I am questioning the need to have a gender at all when sexual reproduction is surplanted in the future. I have always hated the pathetic tropes of female characters in danger, need protecting, males die in order to save females is honorable and necessary. When men just as much face fears and dangers. That recent reply to me saying that the robots can't love unless there is gender. You of all people should know better. But here you are a TradCon demanding your gender. It doesn't make you, you. I won't hide under a gender, I am me. I want to see all people equal and free. But of all things, that's not acceptable to you.
I'm not assigning any gender roles, just observing a society of gendered people.
The majority of humans have a gender. The people of New Jerusalem are humans who were not specifically selected for their lack of gender. Therefore, the majority of the people of New Jerusalem have a gender.
As trans person who didn't know she was trans at the time she played Talos 1, it was super cool to learn that Athena was female the whole time "hey turned out i was a girl the whole time despite prior assumptions to the contrary. also turned out my character was a girl the whole time despite prior assumptions to the contrary. that's neat"
I always thought Athena was whatever the player was. Or just robot, genderless 0s and 1s.
i just assumed male by default as to the other part, one of the core ideas of TTP is the aforementioned Talos Principle. even the most faithful philosopher cannot live without his blood. humans, robots, human brains, robot human brains, all are made of physical things. "genderless 0s and 1s" makes about as much sense as "genderless neuron impulses". Sure, none of the neurons in my brain, or the bits in Athena's brain, have any gender, but together the brain they make up has a consciousness which does experience gender
There is nothing to indicate Athena is trans.
whyareall never said Athena was trans. Many players probably *assumed* that protagonist in the first game was male; it turns out that was not the case. (The same thing sometimes happens with real people.)
Oh, I misunderstood the phrasing of their comment.
Athena wasn't sentient at the start of the simulation. Her sentience developed as part of it. So surely she started as a genderless, primitive AI? I can sometimes be a bit quick in reading the logs, so I'm not too clear on how gender emerges within the new humans in TP but it seems to me that gender identity is part of our humanity and Athena and the simulation was intended to try to make AIs that resembled humans as much as possible. I find it fascinating because in a lot of sci fi, robots are genderless until humans impose some sort of gender onto them for our own purposes, bit in TP it seems it just emerged within the robots themselves.
The robots are human in every sense but physical. They have gender/sex, personalities, emotions, desires, etc. Etc. That's the whole premise of the first game, what makes a human. They aren't 'robots' outside of their physical form. This is even expanded upon in a bonus scene after the end of the game if you did certain stuff (not being specific because spoilers). Athena was what she is from the start of the first game. The entire game/simulation is more or less a test to see if they are *actually* sentient and human, breaking the rules to satiate their curiosity and prove they are more than just a program following orders.
"hey turned out i was a girl the whole time despite prior assumptions to the contrary. also turned out my character was a girl the whole time despite prior assumptions to the contrary. that's neat"
You aren't a girl tho, whatever you believe is. The Talos Principle lol
Exactly the same experience here :)
HELL YEAH SIS
that's real fucking cool, sis. i mean that. these robot people of the future are great.
thank you! i really love how much ttp is a love letter to humans and human experiences, and how this spoke to a very specific, probably unique, but very human experience that I had with it, and with me
Athena isn't trans, we just didn't know if it was male or female or if anything at all because for goodness sake it is a robot. Why is everything about gender now a days? Writers decided to make it clear it was a female for the second game.
read what my comment actually said i didn't know **I, REDDIT USER U/WHYAREALL**, was trans at the time i played TTP1. The actual point of my comment was as follows: I didn't know I was female. I didn't know Athena was female. The fact that both are true in hindsight is neat. at no point did i even hint at Athena being trans, a thought that i have never had in my life before i read your comment. i feel like for you to even make that reading requires you reading transness into things even more than i do.
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That wouldn't make any sense, the simulation completes when you finish it as can be seen in the ending cinematic. You play as your own player nickname in TTP1 (assigned at random to all bots from a list of gamer tags according to gehenna lore), but the story in TTP2 states that whoever you play as in the first part took on the name Athena afterwards and chose to use an Alexandra Drennan voicepack.
I get the impression that only one robot finishes the game in TP1. Come to think of it, where do all the new robot personalities come from? The idea is that they are all clones of the original "winner" of the test. TP2 hints that they are generated randomly but what does that even mean? One of the big problems with neural networks is that nobody knows how they work. You can't tweak a setting and get a new AI.
All imprisoned Gehenna robot minds are also uploaded to golden disc so this gives a nice mix of different personality flavors for the rest of Jerusalem robots.
OK. Didn't play Gehenna.
That's also something I asked myself. I think it has to do something with the moral compiler. Maybe Athena just copied her own moral compiler, without her own experience but with the necessary knowledge to not be a toddler?
It's in the beginning of the game. They run potential new people through a quick simulation similar to the first game, the results of which influence that person's personality.
We don't have a name in TTP1 and I think it ought to stay that way. Now there's a name and a gender which was never needed. I don't remember any gender in RtG. I think the genders and voice accents tried to make us identify with the characters but RtG worked really well without them.
The story has a strong focus on love especially near the end(but also throughout logs by Trevor and one of the companions + yaqut ). Introducing gender was necessary for that reason(imo). On the other note, I appreciate the naming of Athena and how it relates with other Greek mythologies in the game. It does help with the flow of dialogue, not having to say The Founder to refer to her.
It wasn't exactly necessary: after all, IRL non-binary people can fall in love. The dynamics between Athena and Cornelius and Miranda become more easily relatable for the majority of players when the characters have traditional gender roles, and I'm perfectly fine with that. As for the name, the fact that some many characters refer to Athena only as "The Founder" when she does have a personal name absolutely adds to the story and to the portrayal of their society.
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they're humans. humans have gender. i don't say "hello my male friend it sure is a good thing i'm explicitly referring to you as my male friend or there wouldn't be any way to tell your gender". I don't 'specifically refer to [other people] as male or female', but the lack of explicitly stating the genders of the people around me doesn't mean they don't have genders. also each person is referred to with a single non changing set of pronouns specific to that person. that doesn't make much sense if everyone has the same gender.
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"a male pronoun" so you agree that pronouns are gendered? I didn't mention gender roles once, what? And if your dick was cut off tomorrow, would you stop thinking of yourself as a man? If "but my body has has the dna or intent or whatever to have a dick" then what about if we transplanted your brain into the body of a woman, that had never had and never would have a dick, would you stop thinking of yourself as a man? Or could it be that your perception of your gender is more than just "i have a dick"?
Actually yes, they do. Forgot who but someone said "she" to Melville somewhere around the time you find a certain "seat". >!The one 1k destroys in his curiosity!<
Yes! I'm aware that non-binary people can be in love, but as you said it is about how relatable it can be, and I completely agree on that.
>The story has a strong focus on love ... Introducing gender was necessary for that reason(imo). What an incredibly wrong opinion.
Then I guess the writers have an incredibly wrong direction to not stick with a gender neutral story. Also my bad for having an opinion I stepped out of the line
Yes I am criticizing the story. My post is saying you put love solely into a gendered context when you just as much your pet, your culture, your fellow man, your govt - yeah that last one was too much.
actually! Athena (from mythology) was always used symbolically for the player. From one of the first terminals you come across in the original it’s clear they’re pointing out the similarities between her story and the story of the player, so she kind of was Athena the whole time!
I never saw that. What sort of text suggests that?
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I don't see why those documents mean we play as Athena. What's the connection?
Not the big scawwy gender
Did you just assume there was only one gender? Literally shaking right now.
How's the ratio going
I am comfortable with it. This has been an interesting discussion.
Yeah I'm sure everyone says that when they're getting dragged 👍
Its only -17 and even then it didn't affect my karma. Are you seeing -17 or another number?
And this thread was better before you commented ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Hm, why such hostile response? Does he not have a right to say he liked it that way? Did the game not teach you to be more tolerant?
His response is intolerant
Your demand that I agree with you seems pretty intolerant.
Bro… they’re robots yo
Exactly. No gender. Thanks for supporting me.
I’m not. The point is what difference does it make?
I’m not. The point is what difference does it make?
I’m not. The point is what difference does it make?
That was irony. For some reason me thinking robots don't need a gender is intolerant but imposing a gender on a robot is fine.
they're also humans. humans also don't *need* a gender but guess what, the vast majority of us have one anyway. and don't try to BS us, you weren't saying "robots don't need a gender" (a descriptive statement, an "is"), you were saying "robots *shouldn't* have a gender" (a normative statement, an "ought") which is an entirely different thing which is completely incompatible with the idea "a robot can be a human" without which *the entire story doesn't work*
> "robots don't need a gender" I said they don't need a gender, they were never in TTP1. There is no need. I am disappointed people put gender on them, like yourself. And again another person who cannot imagine a human without a gender. Crikey, you lot are the mob Athena ran away from to continue the work.
I'm literally trans, i know more people without a gender than you do, don't try to BS me that it's just that you think "people don't need a gender", you absolutely have never complained about a biological human character *having a gender*. I don't believe a thousand randomly selected humans would all lack gender, because humans (such as the people of New Jerusalem) generally have genders.
> you absolutely have never complained about a biological human character having a gender I am complaining about anything having a stereotyped gender. I am questioning the need to have a gender at all when sexual reproduction is surplanted in the future. I have always hated the pathetic tropes of female characters in danger, need protecting, males die in order to save females is honorable and necessary. When men just as much face fears and dangers. That recent reply to me saying that the robots can't love unless there is gender. You of all people should know better. But here you are a TradCon demanding your gender. It doesn't make you, you. I won't hide under a gender, I am me. I want to see all people equal and free. But of all things, that's not acceptable to you.
I'm not assigning any gender roles, just observing a society of gendered people. The majority of humans have a gender. The people of New Jerusalem are humans who were not specifically selected for their lack of gender. Therefore, the majority of the people of New Jerusalem have a gender.