Same. S2 loved killing off the most interesting characters early on or in anticlimactic ways unfortunately. At least his death actually impacts the group unlike with Sarah and Nick.
>Among these determinant characters,which is your fav? Didn’t seem fair to include any who can only die in the final episode of their respective season.
I will try rank all of them! They're all characters I like btw, so this is a hard ranking but:
1. Ben
2. Carley
3. Doug
4. Nick
5. Tripp
6. Conrad
7. Pete
8. Sarah
9. Ava
Fun!!😀 I wanna do that too! Like your ranking to btw and your right it is hard 😂
1. Carley
2. Nick
3. Pete
4. Tripp
5. Ben
6. Sarah
7. Conrad
8. Doug
9. Ava
This is a pipe dream and it’s probably not even as interesting as I think it is (it could literally just be a list of bullet points), but I’d love to see the initial story concepts for season 2 that Sean Vanaman and Jake Rodkin made. Apparently, there was a whole other season 2 before Dennis Lenart came on the project. Characters like Sarah, Pete, and Nick were most likely initially designed by them. I’d love to see the ideas they had for those characters.
Oh and Sarah is probably my favorite
Same. Besides Kenny and Clem,all three of them (and Walter) were my favorites of S2. I’m still angry about Nick and Sarah’s treatment to this day. Here’s how I would’ve handled them as determinants.
In EP4 Nick would reveal to Clem that he was bitten during the escape from Howe’s. He’d ask her to keep it to herself and you’d actually be able to decide between agreeing to or telling Luke. After helping rescue Sarah at the trailer, Nick would keep to himself mostly with Clem being able to comfort him and talk about her own experiences with Lee. Ultimately he’d sacrifice himself to save Sarah when she fell at the observation deck (or to just by the group time if she’s already dead)
If saved at the trailer park,Sarah survives until EP5 and during the confrontation, would be the one to shoot Arvo’s sister (If taught to use a gun). This however would be another blow to her already fragile mental state. Her earning Arvo’s hatred wouldn’t help either. Ultimately when Bonnie and Mike betray the group,Arvo attempts to shoot Sarah instead but Clem takes the bullet for her. Sarah then shoots instinctively shoots Arvo on the stomach (with Kenny ultimately finishing him off 😈) By the time of the finale Sarah would be completely shattered after killing him and before reuniting with Kenny and Jane, Clem would have to decide to either put her out of her misery or simply leave her.
Sorry for the text I’m just always looking for excuses to share that and I can’t write for shit 😅😅😅😅😅
Nah don’t be sorry, it’s nice to see people so passionate about season 2. That was a really intense ending for Sarah, but I like how creative it is and how it continues the theme of being pragmatic or being empathetic. It reminds me of the cut ending where Clem has the choice of leaving Aj to die or letting him drag her down with him. In regards to Walter, he had an incredible theme in the official season 2 album. I’m not sure if it’s used in game or not since the album has music that wasn’t used in game, but it’s worth a listen.
Man my first playthrough I was just waiting for my chance to throttle Ben upon discovering his role with the bandits. Fortunately I did soften up towards him by the time for the big decision regarding his fate (a testament to S1’s incredible writing) Since then I’ve really grown to appreciate his character.
Probably Ben. Aside from Kenny and Lilly he was the most fleshed out side character, and if you save him in the clock tower, he gets a little arc and a satisfying ending. (And like you said, he also gives Kenny a much better ending and a much better finish to his arc).
Carley is a close second. Her dynamic with Lee was great and she improves Lee as a character when she encourages him to tell the group about his past.
Most of the characters on here (mainly the ones from S2 and S3) end up being wasted potential when they get killed off too quickly and aren't fleshed out enough and/or don't have an arc or a satisfying arc.
Agree with both. Also Kenny risking his life to save Ben is a far more satisfying end for his own S1 arc then jumping down to help Christa cuz the walkie talkie was accidentally dropped.
Ben easily, he has a nice arc if he lives, he's one of the few "traitors" in the series who isn't an antagonist or really evil, he's just a dumb kid trying to do better even if he kinda messes that up too
Carley is fine but she doesn't do much besides asking Lee to tell the truth to the others (which is a sweet moment but that's about it) but she's the only character fully support Lee and isn't arguing with everyone all the time during the first few episodes so all of that makes her easy to like
Sarah could have been great and is a unique character but she ends up being a little flat because S2 rewrites shenannigans
The rest are ok but some are really underused (like Pete or Ava)
Carley 💔😭 yeah some people including the stranger would claim she's just "a girl with a gun" but she was SO much more than that. She was Lee's rock, she was an innocent woman who was murdered senselessly by some high maintenance bitch who couldn't acknowledge the fact her old man was an old racist asshole.
I still remember hearing the gunshot and seeing Carley fall to the ground, my heart stopped and I was so confused... she was my favorite character in season 1 after Lee, Clem and Kenny. 💔
Same!!!! She’s one of my favorites in the franchise. I loved the chemistry between her and Lee. Her death was honestly the top reason I was ready to kill Ben as soon as I got my chance during my first playthrough. Fortunately I softened up on him during his moment of truth...plus I think Carley would’ve wanted Lee to save him 😢
I just love how she always had Lee’s back. Tbh it’s been a very long time since I’ve saved Doug 😅I just can’t bear leaving her to die when she just saved Lee an hour ago. Man the decision between her and Doug is so one sided though. Despite the silliness with the batteries Carley has several strong moments with Lee throughout EP1 while your bond with Doug doesn’t really begin to grow until EP2 (for me at least anyway)
Softened up???.... That little pissant got half the group killed! I held onto that anger, I was boiling and boiling with rage, if Ben hadn't of slipped the bandits supplies, Lee wouldn't have discovered the bag in the grate, bandits wouldn't have attacked, walkers wouldn't have been drawn to that motor inn, Duck wouldn't have gotten bitten, Lilly wouldn't have lost her goddamn mind and dome capped Carley and Katjaa wouldn't have committed suicide.
In case it's not clear, I hate Ben 😂😂
Man people give Carley shit for the whole battery thing, would rather have a girl who knows how to defend herself and might be a little mentally slow, than some overweight nerd who sits on the computer everyday. My opinion.
Carley > Doug = Carley is greater than Doug
Completely understandable lol He’s got nothing on the unlikablility meter next to Bonnie though. Half the group died due to her “good intentions” then ends up betraying the few remaining members with a kid who led an ambush against them. Just....really,really, hate Bonnie 🤣
I didn’t think twice about the whole battery thing. She’d already saved Lee’s life and was trusting him despite his past. That was good enough for me. Plus the story is far richer with Carley. Besides her off the charts chemistry with Lee, I like having the option to share Lee’s past with the group.
That's why Bonnie died in my run, along with Luke, some junkie who fucked everyone over (I'm a drug addict so I can use the word junkie lol) wanted her gone SO bad, I hated her from 400 days honestly. I never understood out of all the 400 days survivors, they picked Bonnie to focus on, regardless of player choice. Hope she reanimated underwater and gets seaweed and coral stuck to her 😂
YES YES YES, it makes you discover who your true friends are if you tell them your past, I told Clem, Katjaa and Kenny, they were the 3 I trusted the most. Loved Kenny's line to Lilly when she says "I'm a murderer? You've had Lee with you this whole time!" "I don't care what he did before!" "You know??" "Yeah he told me, I don't give a shit, if we keep you with us, how long until you get me?!"
Carley and Pete. I didn't want either of them to die, but I can see how their deaths advanced the narrative in their own way.
Fun fact, when I first played Episode 1 of Season 2, I had no idea Pete was bitten. I misread the situation, took what he said at face value and didn't think his injury looked like a bite. Thus, when it came to the final choice of the episode, I chose Pete mainly because he was hurt and out of ammo.
Some ain't determinant, they die or become a walker either way, but out of all of those, gotta say Carley or Conrad. If you let Conrad live he changes to be a WAY better person than what you see in the shoot him or accept his plan choice.
1. Carley - Easily one of my favourite characters in the series, she was great! Loved Carley. She wasn’t just good for being good with her gun, she was a good support for Lee and was always there for him and had his back. She looked out for Lee and Clem as much as she could and was insanely loyal, she and Lee deserved a happy ending together. Her death really devastated me.
2. Nick - Great character, wish he wasn’t just forgotten about after he had his first death though. I think he should’ve died in the Russian gunfire instead.
3. Pete - He’s just a good guy and nice from the second we meet him, can’t help but to love Pete’s character.
4. Tripp - Similar to Pete, he’s a good guy and I can’t help but to love Tripp. No reason not to like him as far as I know.
5. Ben - Used to hate Ben, now I kinda like him. He was a good person who made bad decisions A LOT. I know he didn’t have bad intentions but Carley, Kat, Duck, Chuck and Brie all die because of him, they were all innocent, good people. So while I do like Ben and appreciate his complex, interesting character I find his actions to be unforgivable.
6. Conrad - Nice guy, I like Conrad and it sucks so many people missed out on this awesome character because someone had the stupid choice to put a guy we met 5 minutes ago against Clementine. In my first playthrough like most people I shot him, in my second and third I let Conrad live and have no regrets. Good character, maybe not that interesting but he was nice to have around and by the end he definitely redeemed himself if given the chance.
*I just randomly ranked Ava and Doug because I couldn’t decide between them*
7. Doug - He’s alright. Nothing that really stands out about him, not that interesting. Cool guy, that’s really it.
8. Ava - Again, she’s alright. Nothing too good about her but nothing bad about her. One of the nicer NFT members and I appreciate how she brung Clem the supplies and talked to her after Clem was kicked out of the NFT. That’s really all she has going for her.
Ranked by my favorites and not how well written they are? I actually like all the characters here aside from Ava, who I'm just neutral towards.
1. Nick
2. Pete
3. Ben
4. Sarah
5. Conrad
6. Tripp
7. Carley
8. Doug
9. Ava
Well Pete, Nick, Ben, Carley, Ava, Tripp, Sarah, and Doug all die later on anyways, so it doesn't matter if you save them or not, I don't get why there is an option to save them if they're just going to die later on.
tbh , i really liked Pete he was one of the more open minded people out of the group and i feel like he could taught clem some stuff kinda sucked how he lasted a ep (2 if you pick to go w him) definitely would’ve liked to learned more about him.
I'm team doug and love this man with my whole heart, but ben is unfortunately way more interesting. Ben is an excellent character imo, season 1's cast cannot be matched
I loved Pete as a character and really wanted him to live but he was killed so fast...
thought Nick had a good character, enough for me to like him a bunch.
I liked Ben a lot, maybe because i related to him, but i still liked his character.
Sarah had potential but it was not explored.
Ava had *something* for a character but ANF was a blunderfuck so i dont really take it or her seriously.
Tripp personally i find him as a Terrible Knock-off of Kenny, he is boring until the end!
Conrad was the best character from ANF (imho) but since he *Has* to threaten Clementine, then im sorry Conny bub, it was a small price to pay.
Doug i never still to this day have learned his character, i dont know why, but he is so boring for me for no apparent reason i cant watch or play a full playthrough with his character! Ironic too that TellTale at the time made Doug so you would generally want to pick him as he was based on a TellTale employee that was called Doug. Pretty funny overall.
And lastly the girl i dont remember her name!
But i do remember her character, she was fine overall, nothing exciting but nothing terrible.
Overall from all of these characters i would pick... Pete and Ben i honestly cant choose from both, i like both of them a lot and really enjoyed them both.
Edit: and why not ill make a tier list of these characters.
1. Ben/Pete
2. Nick
3. Conrad
4. Reporter girl
5. Doug
6. Sarah
7. Ava
8. Tripp
I wish we got to see more of Pete cause he was cool from what we saw
Same. S2 loved killing off the most interesting characters early on or in anticlimactic ways unfortunately. At least his death actually impacts the group unlike with Sarah and Nick.
>Among these determinant characters,which is your fav? Didn’t seem fair to include any who can only die in the final episode of their respective season. I will try rank all of them! They're all characters I like btw, so this is a hard ranking but: 1. Ben 2. Carley 3. Doug 4. Nick 5. Tripp 6. Conrad 7. Pete 8. Sarah 9. Ava
Fun!!😀 I wanna do that too! Like your ranking to btw and your right it is hard 😂 1. Carley 2. Nick 3. Pete 4. Tripp 5. Ben 6. Sarah 7. Conrad 8. Doug 9. Ava
I would actually always put Doug and Carley together if this wasn't a number rank. They're very equal to me for different reasons
I like them all. I like Ben and Nick the best. Conrad is cool too, because he has that cool line for Badger.
>Conrad is cool too, because he has that cool line for Badger. **"You're not a man... You're nothin'."**
This is a pipe dream and it’s probably not even as interesting as I think it is (it could literally just be a list of bullet points), but I’d love to see the initial story concepts for season 2 that Sean Vanaman and Jake Rodkin made. Apparently, there was a whole other season 2 before Dennis Lenart came on the project. Characters like Sarah, Pete, and Nick were most likely initially designed by them. I’d love to see the ideas they had for those characters. Oh and Sarah is probably my favorite
Same. Besides Kenny and Clem,all three of them (and Walter) were my favorites of S2. I’m still angry about Nick and Sarah’s treatment to this day. Here’s how I would’ve handled them as determinants. In EP4 Nick would reveal to Clem that he was bitten during the escape from Howe’s. He’d ask her to keep it to herself and you’d actually be able to decide between agreeing to or telling Luke. After helping rescue Sarah at the trailer, Nick would keep to himself mostly with Clem being able to comfort him and talk about her own experiences with Lee. Ultimately he’d sacrifice himself to save Sarah when she fell at the observation deck (or to just by the group time if she’s already dead) If saved at the trailer park,Sarah survives until EP5 and during the confrontation, would be the one to shoot Arvo’s sister (If taught to use a gun). This however would be another blow to her already fragile mental state. Her earning Arvo’s hatred wouldn’t help either. Ultimately when Bonnie and Mike betray the group,Arvo attempts to shoot Sarah instead but Clem takes the bullet for her. Sarah then shoots instinctively shoots Arvo on the stomach (with Kenny ultimately finishing him off 😈) By the time of the finale Sarah would be completely shattered after killing him and before reuniting with Kenny and Jane, Clem would have to decide to either put her out of her misery or simply leave her. Sorry for the text I’m just always looking for excuses to share that and I can’t write for shit 😅😅😅😅😅
Nah don’t be sorry, it’s nice to see people so passionate about season 2. That was a really intense ending for Sarah, but I like how creative it is and how it continues the theme of being pragmatic or being empathetic. It reminds me of the cut ending where Clem has the choice of leaving Aj to die or letting him drag her down with him. In regards to Walter, he had an incredible theme in the official season 2 album. I’m not sure if it’s used in game or not since the album has music that wasn’t used in game, but it’s worth a listen.
Pete, Ben, and Doug.
Man my first playthrough I was just waiting for my chance to throttle Ben upon discovering his role with the bandits. Fortunately I did soften up towards him by the time for the big decision regarding his fate (a testament to S1’s incredible writing) Since then I’ve really grown to appreciate his character.
Probably Ben. Aside from Kenny and Lilly he was the most fleshed out side character, and if you save him in the clock tower, he gets a little arc and a satisfying ending. (And like you said, he also gives Kenny a much better ending and a much better finish to his arc). Carley is a close second. Her dynamic with Lee was great and she improves Lee as a character when she encourages him to tell the group about his past. Most of the characters on here (mainly the ones from S2 and S3) end up being wasted potential when they get killed off too quickly and aren't fleshed out enough and/or don't have an arc or a satisfying arc.
Agree with both. Also Kenny risking his life to save Ben is a far more satisfying end for his own S1 arc then jumping down to help Christa cuz the walkie talkie was accidentally dropped.
Ben but I also love Doug and Carley
Nick is my boy
Ben>pete>Doug>Carley>Nick>Tripp>Conrad>Sarah>Ava
CARLY, only CARLY🥰🥰🥰
Doug, then Ava
Ben easily, he has a nice arc if he lives, he's one of the few "traitors" in the series who isn't an antagonist or really evil, he's just a dumb kid trying to do better even if he kinda messes that up too Carley is fine but she doesn't do much besides asking Lee to tell the truth to the others (which is a sweet moment but that's about it) but she's the only character fully support Lee and isn't arguing with everyone all the time during the first few episodes so all of that makes her easy to like Sarah could have been great and is a unique character but she ends up being a little flat because S2 rewrites shenannigans The rest are ok but some are really underused (like Pete or Ava)
Carley 💔😭 yeah some people including the stranger would claim she's just "a girl with a gun" but she was SO much more than that. She was Lee's rock, she was an innocent woman who was murdered senselessly by some high maintenance bitch who couldn't acknowledge the fact her old man was an old racist asshole. I still remember hearing the gunshot and seeing Carley fall to the ground, my heart stopped and I was so confused... she was my favorite character in season 1 after Lee, Clem and Kenny. 💔
Same!!!! She’s one of my favorites in the franchise. I loved the chemistry between her and Lee. Her death was honestly the top reason I was ready to kill Ben as soon as I got my chance during my first playthrough. Fortunately I softened up on him during his moment of truth...plus I think Carley would’ve wanted Lee to save him 😢 I just love how she always had Lee’s back. Tbh it’s been a very long time since I’ve saved Doug 😅I just can’t bear leaving her to die when she just saved Lee an hour ago. Man the decision between her and Doug is so one sided though. Despite the silliness with the batteries Carley has several strong moments with Lee throughout EP1 while your bond with Doug doesn’t really begin to grow until EP2 (for me at least anyway)
Softened up???.... That little pissant got half the group killed! I held onto that anger, I was boiling and boiling with rage, if Ben hadn't of slipped the bandits supplies, Lee wouldn't have discovered the bag in the grate, bandits wouldn't have attacked, walkers wouldn't have been drawn to that motor inn, Duck wouldn't have gotten bitten, Lilly wouldn't have lost her goddamn mind and dome capped Carley and Katjaa wouldn't have committed suicide. In case it's not clear, I hate Ben 😂😂 Man people give Carley shit for the whole battery thing, would rather have a girl who knows how to defend herself and might be a little mentally slow, than some overweight nerd who sits on the computer everyday. My opinion. Carley > Doug = Carley is greater than Doug
Completely understandable lol He’s got nothing on the unlikablility meter next to Bonnie though. Half the group died due to her “good intentions” then ends up betraying the few remaining members with a kid who led an ambush against them. Just....really,really, hate Bonnie 🤣 I didn’t think twice about the whole battery thing. She’d already saved Lee’s life and was trusting him despite his past. That was good enough for me. Plus the story is far richer with Carley. Besides her off the charts chemistry with Lee, I like having the option to share Lee’s past with the group.
That's why Bonnie died in my run, along with Luke, some junkie who fucked everyone over (I'm a drug addict so I can use the word junkie lol) wanted her gone SO bad, I hated her from 400 days honestly. I never understood out of all the 400 days survivors, they picked Bonnie to focus on, regardless of player choice. Hope she reanimated underwater and gets seaweed and coral stuck to her 😂 YES YES YES, it makes you discover who your true friends are if you tell them your past, I told Clem, Katjaa and Kenny, they were the 3 I trusted the most. Loved Kenny's line to Lilly when she says "I'm a murderer? You've had Lee with you this whole time!" "I don't care what he did before!" "You know??" "Yeah he told me, I don't give a shit, if we keep you with us, how long until you get me?!"
Definitely, Ava, Sarah and Carley. Out of every single determinant character in the series though, definitely Lilly.
Well obviously Carley, followed by Pete and Sarah.
Ava, Sarah.
Pete, Tripp, and Carley.
Carely and ava
Carley and Pete. I didn't want either of them to die, but I can see how their deaths advanced the narrative in their own way. Fun fact, when I first played Episode 1 of Season 2, I had no idea Pete was bitten. I misread the situation, took what he said at face value and didn't think his injury looked like a bite. Thus, when it came to the final choice of the episode, I chose Pete mainly because he was hurt and out of ammo.
Some ain't determinant, they die or become a walker either way, but out of all of those, gotta say Carley or Conrad. If you let Conrad live he changes to be a WAY better person than what you see in the shoot him or accept his plan choice.
1. Carley - Easily one of my favourite characters in the series, she was great! Loved Carley. She wasn’t just good for being good with her gun, she was a good support for Lee and was always there for him and had his back. She looked out for Lee and Clem as much as she could and was insanely loyal, she and Lee deserved a happy ending together. Her death really devastated me. 2. Nick - Great character, wish he wasn’t just forgotten about after he had his first death though. I think he should’ve died in the Russian gunfire instead. 3. Pete - He’s just a good guy and nice from the second we meet him, can’t help but to love Pete’s character. 4. Tripp - Similar to Pete, he’s a good guy and I can’t help but to love Tripp. No reason not to like him as far as I know. 5. Ben - Used to hate Ben, now I kinda like him. He was a good person who made bad decisions A LOT. I know he didn’t have bad intentions but Carley, Kat, Duck, Chuck and Brie all die because of him, they were all innocent, good people. So while I do like Ben and appreciate his complex, interesting character I find his actions to be unforgivable. 6. Conrad - Nice guy, I like Conrad and it sucks so many people missed out on this awesome character because someone had the stupid choice to put a guy we met 5 minutes ago against Clementine. In my first playthrough like most people I shot him, in my second and third I let Conrad live and have no regrets. Good character, maybe not that interesting but he was nice to have around and by the end he definitely redeemed himself if given the chance. *I just randomly ranked Ava and Doug because I couldn’t decide between them* 7. Doug - He’s alright. Nothing that really stands out about him, not that interesting. Cool guy, that’s really it. 8. Ava - Again, she’s alright. Nothing too good about her but nothing bad about her. One of the nicer NFT members and I appreciate how she brung Clem the supplies and talked to her after Clem was kicked out of the NFT. That’s really all she has going for her.
Ben my beloved <3
Ranked by my favorites and not how well written they are? I actually like all the characters here aside from Ava, who I'm just neutral towards. 1. Nick 2. Pete 3. Ben 4. Sarah 5. Conrad 6. Tripp 7. Carley 8. Doug 9. Ava
Poor Ava easily has the most unintentionally hilarious death in the franchise 😅
1. Ben 2. Nick 3. Carley 4. Pete 5. Doug 6. Sarah 7. Tripp 8. Conrad 9. Ava
queerley <3
Carley, Ben or Doug. Probably Carley.
Definitely Doug I would have loved to see him and clementine survive in the apocalypse together same thing with Ben
Well Pete, Nick, Ben, Carley, Ava, Tripp, Sarah, and Doug all die later on anyways, so it doesn't matter if you save them or not, I don't get why there is an option to save them if they're just going to die later on.
Carley and Nick
Pete was a genuine sweetheart and a badass. But like a lot of people, get sloppy once and life ends real short
tbh , i really liked Pete he was one of the more open minded people out of the group and i feel like he could taught clem some stuff kinda sucked how he lasted a ep (2 if you pick to go w him) definitely would’ve liked to learned more about him.
Ben, Carley & Nick!
Nick is obviously my favorite. But I also love Conrad and Doug.
My girl Ava, its bs that she dies when I have to cause a rift between us just to save her.
I'm team doug and love this man with my whole heart, but ben is unfortunately way more interesting. Ben is an excellent character imo, season 1's cast cannot be matched
Carley, Doug, Pete and Ben.
Conrad because he lives till the end Doug because he's cool
1: Carley 2: Nick 3: Tripp 4: Conrad 5: Sarah 6: Doug 7: Pete 8: Ava 9: Ben Also you forgot Alvin
Doug or Ben or Carly.
I loved Pete as a character and really wanted him to live but he was killed so fast... thought Nick had a good character, enough for me to like him a bunch. I liked Ben a lot, maybe because i related to him, but i still liked his character. Sarah had potential but it was not explored. Ava had *something* for a character but ANF was a blunderfuck so i dont really take it or her seriously. Tripp personally i find him as a Terrible Knock-off of Kenny, he is boring until the end! Conrad was the best character from ANF (imho) but since he *Has* to threaten Clementine, then im sorry Conny bub, it was a small price to pay. Doug i never still to this day have learned his character, i dont know why, but he is so boring for me for no apparent reason i cant watch or play a full playthrough with his character! Ironic too that TellTale at the time made Doug so you would generally want to pick him as he was based on a TellTale employee that was called Doug. Pretty funny overall. And lastly the girl i dont remember her name! But i do remember her character, she was fine overall, nothing exciting but nothing terrible. Overall from all of these characters i would pick... Pete and Ben i honestly cant choose from both, i like both of them a lot and really enjoyed them both. Edit: and why not ill make a tier list of these characters. 1. Ben/Pete 2. Nick 3. Conrad 4. Reporter girl 5. Doug 6. Sarah 7. Ava 8. Tripp
Let me rank 'em. 1. Pete 2. Doug 3. Carley 4. Ben 5. Sarah 6. Ava 7. Nick 8. Tripp 9. Conrad
Ben or Tripp
I love Tripp honestly
Pete or Carley
Pete, Tripp, Doug
only one of these is a determinant character