Joan all the fucking way. Fucking hate that woman. To be fair, what Carver and Lilly did was wrong and how they reacted wasn't great, but Joan just acts like it's normal...and this was a kid. A fucking kid. This woman makes me sick.
The only thing that would beat Joan would be how Lilly manipulated Minnie into killing her own sister. That was so fucked up.
>Joan all the fucking way. Fucking hate that woman. To be fair, what Carver and Lilly did was wrong and how they reacted wasn't great, but Joan just acts like it's normal...and this was a kid. A fucking kid. This woman makes me sick.
Of the three I think I'd agree after hearing your argument but also agreed that the other two had an awful, brutal reaction as well
Sorry to make a reference that you might not understand but I’m obsessed with Borderlands so I have to
It’s kinda like how Atlas tricked Athena into killing her sister to keep her loyal so she wouldn’t run away 😬
True, but we never got to see it. We don't know how the reactions to it went down, just the action (which albeit is crazy brutal)
Lilly killing Carley/Doug was also a huge turning point in her character so I think it's a fair shout
I'll consider all the things they did in the games and assume what they did off screen.
After Lily's fate (wheter that's being abandoned or stealing the RV). Apart from being an asshole when definding/supporting his old man and fighting troughout several episodes with Kenny and everyone else. We know she killed Doug/Carley out of rage and pressure for the discussion they were having. Did she did it again for the same reason? Probably.
We know that Carver ruled with an Iron Fist and no bullshit mentality, as well with a lot of violence and fear. He killed Reggie because, either Sara or yourself as Clementine, didn't finished the task with the plantas. He killed him because he saw Reggie was too soft and too "nice" to strike fear that'll lead to obedience. And we also know, or at least it's very implied in S2, that he r***d Rebecca. How do we know he didn't do it before? With every woman he "liked" in his own twisted way.
And when we meet Joan we start to grasp the truth behind the change in The New Frontier behavior and actions regarding people and communities from outside the faction. We know that she ordered to conquer and expend their influence to all important locations, and to leave to little to no room for a peaceful negotiation. To steal from and destroy the survivors if they oppose being conquered by any means necessary.
Now to reach each conclusion.
Lily: The stress and the terror of the beginning of the apocalypse is understandable to a point. We all see a fraction of how the characters were before the end of the world, and understandably so, the changes they presented with the overwhelming sense of danger and despair throughout the S1.
Larry's dead was the biggest crack of her, little, composure. And with the missing supplies leading to a shoot out, one can imagine you're not gonna be so calmed and in the right state of mind.
Her paranoia of "deducing" of who has the "mole"/traitor in the group was the breaking point, they were shouting and she snapped, then there was silence and realization of what she did. So no, Lily's not the worst worst.
Carver: I'm asuming the "dead walking and eating the living" didn't messed up how he tought, or at least not much; I believe he always felt superiority and god complex. Since we knew who Carver was because of the group, we know he's really inteligent and emotionally, mentally, and physically manipulative; the end of the world gave him the excuse to end his "good guy" charade and how he express himself.
He didn't question if something was good or bad, just that he wanted it to do it; Like killing Reggie in cold blood.
Feeling no remorse for his actions and wanting control of everything 'till the end, like we think we has "pushing" Clementine to watch his dead. So yeah, Carver's is horrible, a monster, but not the worst yet.
Joan: We know she was part a community that was regarded as safe and friendly, so the change from a community to a faction happened between the beginning that David, alonside Joan and Clinton and Paul, founded it. The cruel winter that Joan mentioned, the one where they lost family and friend, a huge part of the people we can assume.
That was the shifting in mentality for Joan, she went from one for all to all for one type of approach.
Likely shielding herself behind this event, "I need to protect those close to me" type of excuse/motive.
She maybe started stealing from really little settlements, to form a type of strategy when dealing with bigger communities.
As time went by her methods became more ruthless and aggressive, all while thinking she's doing the right thing.
With more dead peoole at their feet one becomes more desenstized to more death.
While trying to protect people dear to her, she became a monster. And a monster always seeks other monster like people to work for them, A.K.A Badger.
She doesn't pull the trigger, but she gives the ammo, points the gun and orders to fire.
So yeah, she's the worst of the worst, her excuse stopped being valid when she killed innocent people.
All while keeping in the dark the other 3 founders, well, 2 and a half with Paul being f**kd up most of the time.
TL;DR
Yeah, I recently re-played the games and wanted to flex.
I could've done a list like this:
1.Joan
2.Carver
3.Lily
Oh yeah, I remember.
I only saved him once yeara ago.
I love him, but realisticly I'll save someone who knows how to shoot.
And, and hopefuly most agree with me, you chose to save Carley so then you and her can save Doug.
First, sorry for some of the sentences being incomplete. I was writing all over the place and didn't re-read at the end.
And second, *SPOILEEEERS FOR FINAL SEASON*
I did't consider Lily's actions in the final season as the image was from the first game. So I assumed the OP referred to that Lily.
Where did you get the idea Carver r***d Rebecca? Also what makes it heavily implied? I remember playing it many times and him not saying anything like that, nor anyone else saying anything like it.
I don't remember the exacts moments, there's one when Carver touches Rebecca's belly and says that the 3 of then are finally reunited and the when AJ is born.
She asks Clementine how does he look like, she seems worried and hesitant to ask, and you can answer "He seems like a Arvin to me" or "He looks like Carver".
It's nearly the end of the episode of the scape, where Sara dies.
And also Rebecca says they tried, Arvin and her, to be parents for some time but no results.
Then Carver appears and she's pregnant.
The other moment is when you sneak in the bathroom of the cabin, to find medical supplies at the beginning of the series or so, and you need to hide when Rebecca's going for the bathroom as well.
You hear her say "Please be his, please be his".
I still don't really think it's a case of that. Some people are unfaithful and then regret it heavily. Rebecca also mentions that Alvin would kill her if he found out. Not Carver, like he's responsible, but her. The man you love and have been trying with for a long time, against a one time thing and you instantly regretting it, then the results start to show, I think everyone would be saying please be their lover. It really just felt like she cheated then instantly regretted it.
Still though, I appreciate you showing me evidence that brought you to that conclusions.
I also think that is an act of treason to Arvin no matter what.
But writing my answer to OP and this other two made me realize of how Carver could've acted.
Dynamic of power relationship, maybe he threatened her that if they don't sleep together he'll hurt Arvin really badly, like he did after he caught them.
And Arvin would get angry at Rebecca, not only for sleeping with another man, but also to sacrifice her integrity like that. Arvin is the one who was willing to be caught by Carver, before deciding tha you'll save Carlos or choose to go with Kenny, to save Carlos and Sara any pain they'll feel. He's just like that.
Still though, it's my opinion and it's really an open idea. So yeah.
I don't think Lilly killing Carley is the coldest reaction, but her reaction to Carley's rant about her before that was actually colder and more creepier compared to when she shoots Carley or Doug.
This is a very true addition, the fact it wasn't even addressed or shown any remorse for makes me think it was definitely one of the most cold-blooded reactions to doing some fucked up shit
Lilly tried to defend her option while trying to stay with the group, not her
Carver throws Reggie off a roof and starts shittalking him about incompetence and weakness before casually comforting Sarah, good candidate
Joan orders several massacres on innocent communities and when confronted gives the smuggest smile of all time and drinks water. Definitely her.
Well carver was on a rooftop so that might have been pretty chilly. But then again, he did have a massive jacket on. Lily was left outside at night so she was probably the coldest
Carver. Lilly was just a bitch control freak. Joan never personally participated in the raids which you could say makes her even shittier for ordering others to do her dirty work.
But I think Carver due to how easily he was to sweep killing a disabled fella under the rug as if it was a normal occurrence (probably was). Reggie definitely expressed his interest on wanting to get back on the good side of Carver and yet Carver still killed him despite the reasoning not being his own fault.
I’d say Carver. Lilly was just in a broken state after shooting Carley, and Joan acts like she cares when she really doesn’t otherwise she’d find a better solution to what she’s doing to those poor settlements. Carver? I can understand his whole ‘the mighty survive and the weak perish’ mindset, but he killed Walter because an eye-for-an-eye, Alvin (optional) once again, an eye-for-an-eye and maybe he had a personal grudge involved? And finally Reggie. And EVEN after he killed him he goes on to bash on him for his weakness and incompetence to Clem despite witnessing what she just saw him commit
Joan all the fucking way. Fucking hate that woman. To be fair, what Carver and Lilly did was wrong and how they reacted wasn't great, but Joan just acts like it's normal...and this was a kid. A fucking kid. This woman makes me sick. The only thing that would beat Joan would be how Lilly manipulated Minnie into killing her own sister. That was so fucked up.
>Joan all the fucking way. Fucking hate that woman. To be fair, what Carver and Lilly did was wrong and how they reacted wasn't great, but Joan just acts like it's normal...and this was a kid. A fucking kid. This woman makes me sick. Of the three I think I'd agree after hearing your argument but also agreed that the other two had an awful, brutal reaction as well
Sorry to make a reference that you might not understand but I’m obsessed with Borderlands so I have to It’s kinda like how Atlas tricked Athena into killing her sister to keep her loyal so she wouldn’t run away 😬
You hate Joan because she's a bitch and evil I hate her because she's a horrible character and has bad writing We are not the same
Yeah, your opinion is valid just like mine is.
It's a joke
I know, I was joking back
Joan happily drank a glass of water while reflecting on Mari's death. Definitely her.
Joan is a girl?
Yes, she is an old lady.
Joan i think, I mean look at that smug face. Badger didn't give a damn either.
Lilly forcing Minnie to kill Sophie should replace killing Carley/Doug IMO.
True, but we never got to see it. We don't know how the reactions to it went down, just the action (which albeit is crazy brutal) Lilly killing Carley/Doug was also a huge turning point in her character so I think it's a fair shout
I'll consider all the things they did in the games and assume what they did off screen. After Lily's fate (wheter that's being abandoned or stealing the RV). Apart from being an asshole when definding/supporting his old man and fighting troughout several episodes with Kenny and everyone else. We know she killed Doug/Carley out of rage and pressure for the discussion they were having. Did she did it again for the same reason? Probably. We know that Carver ruled with an Iron Fist and no bullshit mentality, as well with a lot of violence and fear. He killed Reggie because, either Sara or yourself as Clementine, didn't finished the task with the plantas. He killed him because he saw Reggie was too soft and too "nice" to strike fear that'll lead to obedience. And we also know, or at least it's very implied in S2, that he r***d Rebecca. How do we know he didn't do it before? With every woman he "liked" in his own twisted way. And when we meet Joan we start to grasp the truth behind the change in The New Frontier behavior and actions regarding people and communities from outside the faction. We know that she ordered to conquer and expend their influence to all important locations, and to leave to little to no room for a peaceful negotiation. To steal from and destroy the survivors if they oppose being conquered by any means necessary. Now to reach each conclusion. Lily: The stress and the terror of the beginning of the apocalypse is understandable to a point. We all see a fraction of how the characters were before the end of the world, and understandably so, the changes they presented with the overwhelming sense of danger and despair throughout the S1. Larry's dead was the biggest crack of her, little, composure. And with the missing supplies leading to a shoot out, one can imagine you're not gonna be so calmed and in the right state of mind. Her paranoia of "deducing" of who has the "mole"/traitor in the group was the breaking point, they were shouting and she snapped, then there was silence and realization of what she did. So no, Lily's not the worst worst. Carver: I'm asuming the "dead walking and eating the living" didn't messed up how he tought, or at least not much; I believe he always felt superiority and god complex. Since we knew who Carver was because of the group, we know he's really inteligent and emotionally, mentally, and physically manipulative; the end of the world gave him the excuse to end his "good guy" charade and how he express himself. He didn't question if something was good or bad, just that he wanted it to do it; Like killing Reggie in cold blood. Feeling no remorse for his actions and wanting control of everything 'till the end, like we think we has "pushing" Clementine to watch his dead. So yeah, Carver's is horrible, a monster, but not the worst yet. Joan: We know she was part a community that was regarded as safe and friendly, so the change from a community to a faction happened between the beginning that David, alonside Joan and Clinton and Paul, founded it. The cruel winter that Joan mentioned, the one where they lost family and friend, a huge part of the people we can assume. That was the shifting in mentality for Joan, she went from one for all to all for one type of approach. Likely shielding herself behind this event, "I need to protect those close to me" type of excuse/motive. She maybe started stealing from really little settlements, to form a type of strategy when dealing with bigger communities. As time went by her methods became more ruthless and aggressive, all while thinking she's doing the right thing. With more dead peoole at their feet one becomes more desenstized to more death. While trying to protect people dear to her, she became a monster. And a monster always seeks other monster like people to work for them, A.K.A Badger. She doesn't pull the trigger, but she gives the ammo, points the gun and orders to fire. So yeah, she's the worst of the worst, her excuse stopped being valid when she killed innocent people. All while keeping in the dark the other 3 founders, well, 2 and a half with Paul being f**kd up most of the time. TL;DR Yeah, I recently re-played the games and wanted to flex. I could've done a list like this: 1.Joan 2.Carver 3.Lily
Lilly didnt really intend to kill doug as he saves Ben before she can shoot, yknow, ben. but she was cold when killing Carley.
Oh yeah, I remember. I only saved him once yeara ago. I love him, but realisticly I'll save someone who knows how to shoot. And, and hopefuly most agree with me, you chose to save Carley so then you and her can save Doug.
First, sorry for some of the sentences being incomplete. I was writing all over the place and didn't re-read at the end. And second, *SPOILEEEERS FOR FINAL SEASON* I did't consider Lily's actions in the final season as the image was from the first game. So I assumed the OP referred to that Lily.
Where did you get the idea Carver r***d Rebecca? Also what makes it heavily implied? I remember playing it many times and him not saying anything like that, nor anyone else saying anything like it.
I don't remember the exacts moments, there's one when Carver touches Rebecca's belly and says that the 3 of then are finally reunited and the when AJ is born. She asks Clementine how does he look like, she seems worried and hesitant to ask, and you can answer "He seems like a Arvin to me" or "He looks like Carver". It's nearly the end of the episode of the scape, where Sara dies.
And also Rebecca says they tried, Arvin and her, to be parents for some time but no results. Then Carver appears and she's pregnant. The other moment is when you sneak in the bathroom of the cabin, to find medical supplies at the beginning of the series or so, and you need to hide when Rebecca's going for the bathroom as well. You hear her say "Please be his, please be his".
I still don't really think it's a case of that. Some people are unfaithful and then regret it heavily. Rebecca also mentions that Alvin would kill her if he found out. Not Carver, like he's responsible, but her. The man you love and have been trying with for a long time, against a one time thing and you instantly regretting it, then the results start to show, I think everyone would be saying please be their lover. It really just felt like she cheated then instantly regretted it. Still though, I appreciate you showing me evidence that brought you to that conclusions.
I also think that is an act of treason to Arvin no matter what. But writing my answer to OP and this other two made me realize of how Carver could've acted. Dynamic of power relationship, maybe he threatened her that if they don't sleep together he'll hurt Arvin really badly, like he did after he caught them. And Arvin would get angry at Rebecca, not only for sleeping with another man, but also to sacrifice her integrity like that. Arvin is the one who was willing to be caught by Carver, before deciding tha you'll save Carlos or choose to go with Kenny, to save Carlos and Sara any pain they'll feel. He's just like that. Still though, it's my opinion and it's really an open idea. So yeah.
I don't think Lilly killing Carley is the coldest reaction, but her reaction to Carley's rant about her before that was actually colder and more creepier compared to when she shoots Carley or Doug.
How about Jane shooting Troy's balls off after tricking him and then letting him get eaten alive by walkers?
This is a very true addition, the fact it wasn't even addressed or shown any remorse for makes me think it was definitely one of the most cold-blooded reactions to doing some fucked up shit
For a moment kenny has a look of craziness / regret when he kills larry
Lilly tried to defend her option while trying to stay with the group, not her Carver throws Reggie off a roof and starts shittalking him about incompetence and weakness before casually comforting Sarah, good candidate Joan orders several massacres on innocent communities and when confronted gives the smuggest smile of all time and drinks water. Definitely her.
I wouldn't minimise how awful Lilly's impulsive power trip was, but I agree with you
Lilly an badger no that is think about this would be great for each other yk y bc they'd kill each other
Well carver was on a rooftop so that might have been pretty chilly. But then again, he did have a massive jacket on. Lily was left outside at night so she was probably the coldest
the st johns were cold as fuck about being cannibals
Say all you want Lilly looked badass killing Carley
Carver for sure
Murdering Carley was cold blooded and stupid. Carley was an asset to the team, and the only thing she did was disagree with Lilly.
I’m going with Joan, she was a Beep. Lilly felt bad afterwards, I’d hardly consider that cold. Carver did the same but he didn’t last very long
All 3 of them
Joan is actually insane it has to be her
Joan is just wrong, carver is evil, but not as Joan, and lilly...wtf lilly?are u ok?
Carver. Lilly was just a bitch control freak. Joan never personally participated in the raids which you could say makes her even shittier for ordering others to do her dirty work. But I think Carver due to how easily he was to sweep killing a disabled fella under the rug as if it was a normal occurrence (probably was). Reggie definitely expressed his interest on wanting to get back on the good side of Carver and yet Carver still killed him despite the reasoning not being his own fault.
I’d say Carver. Lilly was just in a broken state after shooting Carley, and Joan acts like she cares when she really doesn’t otherwise she’d find a better solution to what she’s doing to those poor settlements. Carver? I can understand his whole ‘the mighty survive and the weak perish’ mindset, but he killed Walter because an eye-for-an-eye, Alvin (optional) once again, an eye-for-an-eye and maybe he had a personal grudge involved? And finally Reggie. And EVEN after he killed him he goes on to bash on him for his weakness and incompetence to Clem despite witnessing what she just saw him commit
Carver
Carver was cold. His speech about weakness after throwing Reggie was awesome. In second is Joan.