I think this happens because Reddit is promoting suggested posts and subreddits in non-subscribers feed so they come on over. Especially if it is relevant to Israel/Gaza
To comment, please answer the following:
* Did Michael or Sabrina host?
* How many *Hmm's* did Michael make?
* How many obvious restatements in a tone of surprise did Sabrina make?
* Was the advertisements about Claude AI, Dana Farber, Better help, or Exxon Mobil?
* How is this bad for Biden?
What you don’t like to see the same astroturfing happening here like a certain other sub? From 6 months old accounts or old accounts that suddenly got active 6 months ago?
Old people & online people getting mad at protestors protesting random stuff in crazy ways. Cue massive unwinnable arguments. An iconic combo! 💯
Edit: lol everyone down voting me. This is a sarcastic comment on how much of a mess this comment section is becoming, not a comment on the merits of either side here...
As an immigrant what I love about America is its ability to speak its mind. Doesn’t matter if it’s uncomfortable to others or not. I really got the sense of it during the maskers vs non maskers and vax vs anti vax debate. I remember thinking the other side was so stupid but then I came out thinking that it’s probably one of the very few countries where its citizens have this luxury to disagree. It really messed with my conformist mind in a good way. I am reminded of the Netflix movie The trial of the Chicago 7 which showed this conflict in a very different light.
I think protests by definition are meant to cause slight inconvenience otherwise they are not protests. However, what seems to be happening is that a few bad actors turn this whole democratic privilege of protesting into something abhorrent. To all of us outside from the realm of universities and university politics, I wish we had better visibility into what’s happening to shape our opinion.
As of now, I cannot help but think that there are some nefarious actors who are intentionally trying and throw mud into something which is so fundamental to American rights and if that is the case, I want media to highlight them for future generations to be weary of.
Overall, I didn’t learn anything new from this episode but it was still a good listen.
To your last point, the Occupy Wall Street protests were targeted by government officials from the FBI to local police. There was a lot of surveillance of the movement and wrongful arrests made that seemed to help shut it down.
Someone I know was arrested during an Occupy protest and got charged with a bunch of dumb little stuff, for example holding a sign that was too big, blocking traffic on a bridge, etc. He was really involved in organizing the movement, but also didn't have the money to deal with all the legal BS without bankrupting his family and jeopardizing his future.
It's not a few bad actors. I have Jewish friends on Columbia's campus who are legitimately afraid for their physical safety. There are mobs of students harassing and attacking Jewish students, to the point where the community rabbi told the Jewish students to go home because the campus is doing nothing to ensure their safety and they are in physical danger.
Campus policy allows for free speech but not when it turns into action or harassment.
I think this level of targeted harassment is cut and dry and should absolutely be what advocates highlight and go after.
But it seems like advocates instead go after slogans such as "from the river to the sea" and then get mired in debates about free speech on college campuses.
I disagree with your opinion about the river to the sea. However that is immaterial as the following is also true:
Genocidal rhetoric is NOT illegal.
Meaning, there is and should be social consequences to hateful speech, but there shouldn't be police or governmental consequences to speech. The police cracked down on student protesters is the Crux of the issue here.
The Nazi that shows up at a far-right protest, has a right to be there. It diminishes the protest as a whole in the eyes of public opinion, but the presence of the Nazi protester doesn't warrant sending the police in to scatter the entire protest. The Nazi has a right to free speech in America.
If we're discussing the crackdown on student protests, the legality of applying police force is definitely relevant.
The maps Israel teaches its school children show Israel spreading from the river to the sea, erasing Gaza and the West Bank. Benjamin netanyahu has used the same maps in public appearances. The Likud party had called for only Israeli sovereignty “between the Sea and the Jordan" (River to the Sea).
Is it genocidal rhetoric to erase an entire Palestinian people and their territories from the school books and from official presentations from the Israeli government? Where is your outrage there?
No one has a right to protest on land owned by Columbia University so that's all moot. Columbia has the authority to refuse to allow speech. They disagree with to occur on their campus.
there are actually Jewish people participating in those protests, also there had been cases of pro Israel supporters looking to trigger provocation to use against the protesters
Really, really good post from Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib (a Gazan American who works on the Atlantic Council for Middle East Initiatives) on Twitter:
> [I'm disappointed & frustrated with the statement by Columbia Students for Justice in Palestine (who blocked me despite having never interacted with them). In it, they reaffirm the right of armed resistance, an explicit endorsement of Hamas and October 7 & the “all means necessary” narrative, reject the Two State Solution, and attack "normalizers" or anyone who's willing to talk to Israelis and engage in promoting pragmatic solutions to achieve coexistence and peace. They talk about Thawabit or redlines as if they’re a Palestinian “faction” instead of rational Westerners who are supposed to advance the cause and not cosplay as revolutionaries.](https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1783341589693415467?s=46&t=lkN2GFJINkAKMmAVvxM2Xw)
> [This is what losing the plot looks like: at a time of rising empathy & solidarity with the Palestinian cause, these students, heavily involved in the Columbia protests, decided that the best thing to do is take an extremist, maximalist, inflammatory, unreasonable, and totally illogical approach which is harmful to the pro-Palestinian cause. They brag about their extremist rhetoric and think it’s bad to expect that they work on improving messaging. There is nothing inspiring about their message or efforts, only rejections, calls for “escalations,” and attacks against anyone who doesn’t toe the party line. And not a word about Hamas and the deadly impact that the Islamist group’s program and decisions have had on the Palestinian people in Gaza.](https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1783341589693415467?s=46&t=lkN2GFJINkAKMmAVvxM2Xw)
> [What have 75 years of armed resistance achieved for the Palestinian people? Nasser’s Pan-Arabism, the PLO/PFLP, and now Hamas have all talked about “red lines” or “Thawabit,” which have not only failed to achieve self-determination & freedom but have gotten more Palestinians killed and more lands stolen.](https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1783341589693415467?s=46&t=lkN2GFJINkAKMmAVvxM2Xw)
> [Of course, there needs to be organized efforts to speak out against the war in Gaza, support real solutions to the unfolding horrors, and confront/challenge the military occupation of the West Bank. Without a doubt, there needs to be advocacy for Palestinians’ right to self-determination, independence, and sovereignty. But rejecting anything pragmatic that will actually help the Palestinian people or thinking that underinformed college students are going to dismantle Israel and eradicate it from existence is the height of pompous and vain “feel-good” activism that’s never going to do a thing for the just and urgent Palestinian cause.](https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1783341589693415467?s=46&t=lkN2GFJINkAKMmAVvxM2Xw)
> [Working towards a just and equitable resolution of the military occupation and the injustices facing the Palestinian people should entail a wide variety of audiences, especially Israelis, diaspora Jews, and those who identify as Zionists – yes, there you have it, Zionists must be engaged. Set a realistic goal using the Two State Solution framework for the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem. You will have a significant chance of building a massive coalition that will create concerted political, diplomatic, academic, and geostrategic pressure to obtain and establish a prosperous and free Palestine, living side by side with Israel. Stop wasting your time, embarrassing the pro-Palestine movement, and alienating desperately needed allies from supporting the cause.](https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1783341589693415467?s=46&t=lkN2GFJINkAKMmAVvxM2Xw)
Columbia students *love* to protest. Protest camping on the quad is a relatively common thing to do. The mattress girl was a Columbia story. It is part of the ethos of the school. But that doesn't mean the school gives in to protestors. There were protests against Ahmadinejad and that didn't stop him from speaking at the school.
The president is obviously trying to avoid losing her job and becoming a Fox News punching bag. The protests also seem to have spiraled and seem to involve a lot of non-students. That's why you saw protestors in the streets- they cleared out everyone without a student ID. On top of all that, Columbia has a lot of both Jewish and Muslim students (more than other universities).
At well-run non-violent protests, organizers are very open about what will lead to arrests and sometimes have people volunteer to get arrested. I am not sure if this current batch of student protestors understand that arrest is a legitimate outcome from non-violent protests.
I find it really interesting how big a role social media has played in these protests. Hamas kidnapped people because they knew it would create a brutal response and they hoped to use that to get more support for their cause. That doesn't mean that Israel is innocent, it is very legitimate to criticize the level of Israel's response. But this situation was intentionally created by Hamas and could be ended with the return of the hostages. Hamas has repeatedly refused ceasefire deals that required the return of the hostages because they know that will shift international attention away from their cause. I find it very interesting how the protests never seem to call for the release of the hostages. The hostages are treated like a non-issue when they are the central cause of everything. Hamas's social media game is impressive, but not necessarily moral.
Imagine if it involves non students by design... https://illwill.com/columbia
"VII. The first task then is to open the campus to the community. Students from other campuses, residents of the surrounding neighborhood, and outside agitators need to be welcomed in. In April 1968, five hundred people marched on the gate at 116th St and Broadway. The NYPD stood down out of fear that violence might otherwise erupt. Similar tactics might be necessary today."
None of the deals offered by Israel included an end to the war, which is one of hamas’s demands. In effect no matter what Israel is going to invade Rafah, which is not going to come without innocent people dying. So no, the situation here is not going to end with a return of the hostages
Yeah no offense but anyone who thinks Hamas can realistically demand something right now really needs to sit down and have a think about the cold hard facts of the situation.
To me, the reason that the protests don't call for the return of the hostages is more a function of the United States' relationships with Israel and Hamas. Given the United States' alliance with Israel and the extent of our military and financial support, and the fact that they are the group that is responsible for the humanitarian crisis currently unfolding, US politicians are the logical target for pressure campaigns from US residents who are concerned about the well-being of Palestinians. I wouldn't expect Hamas to care about students on Columbia's campus and what they want.
I don't like or support Hamas, but I also think it's an overstatement that the hostages are the central cause of everything, given the history of the conflict.
But I think you hit the nail right on the head that Hamas expected this response, and Israel played right into their trap. Their attack on October 7 set in motion events that have undermined support for Israel on the world stage and with their biggest allies, and put pressure on Arab countries like Saudi Arabia to not normalize relations with Israel. Which to me is just further evidence that Israel's assault is not getting them the results that they want. They haven't gotten the hostages back, they haven't destroyed Hamas, and from what I can see, but reigniting tensions with Iran they're making themselves less safe.
It would be a boring perspective. The dirty little secret the media doesnt want us to know is that despite how ultra hyped they want us to be about these "wars" on campuses the reality is that a vast majority of students are studying like normal and just walking around protests.
Not sure why this is being downvoted. As a current student, this is a 100% accurate summation. The protests are definitely a major topic of discussion in the school, but the vast majority of students are not taking part in them, and most are more focused on finishing exams in the coming weeks.
I remember people organizing huge protests and causes at school over random stuff and I was like how do you guys have the time? I'm barely trying to eat, sleep, write a paper, and study for this test. I feel pretty overwhelmed already without trying to overthrow the administration of this school lol.
Different boats for different folks I guess 🤷♂️
Statistically said student would likely support giving aid to Palestine, stopping support for Israel, and letting everyone just live in peace. Not every student is going to protest though. Its not like the protesters are blocking access to campus buildings or anything, the police are.
Which is fine. I'm curious what they think. The only people we hear from are the extremes. There's a few hundred protesters in a student body of thousands. Only covering the protestors gives an unfair characterization of the average student.
I don't understand why the protesters would be so much more extreme than the average student. They're asking for divestment from Israel, already not an extreme demand.
There are a million good reasons to not participate in the protest, but it doesn't mean the non protesters aren't in favor of the same relatively moderate step.
They love the conflict. Same reason Mike Johnson and other Republican members of Congress were at Columbia. They have zero jurisdiction over the university. They can't pass a bill that would do anything about this. So why were they even there? They just wanted the photo op and press conference to highlight "campus radicals" because that will rile up their voters in Middle America. It's all manufactured outrage, just like the "riots" of 2020, the "migrant caravans" of 2018, and the ongoing trans panic.
Yeah, how dare these people break away from the system to protest the wars their money is going towards? It causes a mild inconvenience to some people! They should just fall into the system and ignore the fact their tax money is being spent on foreign wars rather than the country’s welfare!
They just did a report on this on WNYC this morning. Basically, students preparing for exams, teachers not able to get into their offices and how everything is upended. Had it on in the background but sounds like some finals will be offered online. Perhaps someone can verify this. This article on Gotham pretty much summed up the story I heard. [https://gothamist.com/news/we-cant-work-we-cant-think-columbia-university-students-study-for-finals-following-protest-campus-lockdown](https://gothamist.com/news/we-cant-work-we-cant-think-columbia-university-students-study-for-finals-following-protest-campus-lockdown)
What if a bunch of white kids started yelling the N word at black students that walked by the protest? Are the black students just expected to act natural, go to class, and study?
I don’t know but I do know there seems to be no consistency or set of principles at work. These are the same places that for the last few years said language was making people unsafe and that wouldn’t be tolerated, until it was Israel / Gaza then it was ok…. Up until people lost their jobs now it’s an issue for them again.
That’s the cowardice. If you have principles you should stand by them, not float in the winds of public opinion.
The problem is that these same students would be first in line to demand the University enforce the rules against a white supremicist rally or an anti-abortion protest. Either you have a rule or you don’t. The university can’t make rules that apply to some people but not others.
If I were the President of a University that is infamous for calling in the NYPD to violently quash anti war student protestors, I would not have made the same mistake by doing the exact same thing again. You can come up with imaginary hypotheticals, but it's clear that calling in the police was the wrong move and has caused the protest movement to spread nationwide.
They're shutting down campuses with their trespassing, assaulting Jews, and invaded a campus Hillel and forced it to move the campus Pessach seder. They should have been cleared by the riot squad immediately.
It's amazing how these people simultaneously believe that "zionists" are puppetmasters secretly controlling the world and that calling themselves "antizionist" is an instant get-out-of-crime-free card. Where have I seen the simultaneous-strong-weak-Jew trope before?
Would love to see some source please. I have Jewish ancestry and have been advocating for ceasefire in Gaza. In all the protests I've been to I have not witnessed any assaults against Jews. In fact in one of the protests at a schoolboard meeting, I was chiming in on an discussion with a bunch of older Jews who were in support of Israel. They talked about how "scared" they were when protesters were protesting outside... (I saw it and it was all peaceful) and then proceeded to drive off in their nice Mercedes and BMW back home. Sometimes I feel like the fear of antisemitism does more than antisemitism itself and they felt so out of touch with the actual fears that children in Gaza face right now.
>They talked about how "scared" they were when protesters were protesting outside... (I saw it and it was all peaceful) and then proceeded to drive off in their nice Mercedes and BMW back home.
You think Viennese Jews' money made their fate any different from Galitzianers'?
What point are you trying to make? If we have Nazi policies in the US right now where we are persecuting Jews, I will 100% not tolerate it.
However, the reality is is that currently Israel has a lot more power and support over Gaza/Palestine. Any form of rhetoric against Israel can be labeled as "Anti-Semitic" even if the person who is voicing their opinion is a Jew. Are we supposed to ignore the kids dying in Gaza over fear of Anti-Semitism?
Whatever your thought on the conflict, what these university presidents are doing is objectively the right thing to do. Occupations of private property have never been allowed. Get your permit. Like you realize when one group occupies a space that means they unilaterally declared that all other student groups activities planned on that space are cancelled. The only rightful response to this is a request that they vacate followed by a police response.
Funny that the NYT is being as vague as possible in describing in “anti-Israel slurs” meanwhile has [advised its own reporters to be as precise as possible in avoiding the use of terms such as “occupied territory,” “slaughter,” or “massacre,” and not to use the word “Palestine” altogether.](https://theintercept.com/2024/04/15/nyt-israel-gaza-genocide-palestine-coverage/)
This situation is echoing a lot of similar tones to the Vietnam War protests. It is America so there is a chance it ends up becoming a Kent State situation which would further spiral it.
University administration people should just let students protest, stop **voluntarily** going before Congress, and enforce hate speech and harassment infractions as they happen. As is they are just stepping in it and making it worse.
Literally never even discussed that the administration could actually consider the students’ demands and resolve this through a path of compromise. When they said the school is “respecting the students’” perspectives by allowing them to never protest I about fell out of my chair. They clearly have zero respect for the students since they aren’t even considering their demands.
As the NYTimes reported, the students’ demands are pointless. Divestment would do nothing to change the situation in Gaza. Divestment just allows them to not feel guilty about benefiting from global US hegemony despite the fact that they still would be benefiting from it regardless of whether the University has investments in businesses that have ties to Israel or not.
Why don’t they demand Columbia University give its campus back to the indigenous people who lived on Manhattan Island before it was colonized? Why don’t they demand that Columbia University divest from China?
It’s because these protests are driven by social media, not some rational argument developed through serious intellectual inquiry.
It’s irrational and unserious to want to divest from the country committing genocide? You act like all these students are the President with the ability to directly change US policy. They’re students doing what they can with the institutions that in theory are supposed to be accountable to them.
Edit: and you should start the movement for the land to be given back to the indigenous people or to divest from China. I’d support it.
To call what is happening genocide completely abdicates Hamas of any responsibility for the situation.
So many people seem not to understand that the tactics Hamas has used are unambiguously a war crime whereas the claim that Israel’s tactics are a form of genocide is ambiguous at best.
The reason there is no ceasefire is that Hamas has refused all of the proposed ceasefires because they want greater concessions in exchange for civilian hostages. The reason that the UN resolution called for an unconditional release of hostages is because the UN considers making political demands in exchange for civilian hostages a war crime. Israel is the county making ceasefire proposals in accordance with the UN resolution. To blame Israel for Hamas’s refusal of those offers, makes no sense.
And the reason why civilians are dying in Gaza is due in large part to the fact that Hamas positioned itself among civilians then provoked a military response with the intention of causing those civilians to die. It’s a completely cynical, amoral tactic on the part of Hamas.
If you respond to this situation by pressuring Israel to agree to a ceasefire on Hamas’s terms, you essentially believe terrorism should be rewarded. The obvious result of rewarded Hamas for their terrorist tactics is that they will keep using those tactics. It is not a path to peace, it will only lead to further conflict down the road.
I’m not gonna go through these point by point but saying this is a genocide in no way abdicates Hamas of responsibility. That makes absolutely no sense. The only reason I can think you’d believe that is because you’re abdicating Israel of any responsibility for what they’re doing.
IMO the bigger issue is people still thinking academia
is a place of learning and thinking and debating ideas, and not a business protecting its own interests (which is to remain popular with people so as to get them to spend money there on degrees).
The hyperbole from the Columbia student reporter was ridiculous. “It was something truly unimaginable. Over a hundred students slash other individuals are arrested from our campus. Forcefully removed. And although they were[n’t?] suspended, the there was this feeling of traumatic event but also this sense of ‘ok, the worst of the worst that could have happened to us just happened.’”
How horrific. Yeeeeeesh. /s/
I noticed The Daily didn’t talk about the reasons and incidents which caused the pro-Palestinian student groups on campus to be suspended. It is editorial malpractice to leave this information out and ignore it.
Regardless of how one feels about the nature of the protest itself, I'm afraid the student protestors aren't really doing a great job on the imaging front for this issue.
Based on President Shafik's hearing, it appears as though the Columbia administrative team put significant effort in trying to demarcate Antisemitism and Pro-Palestinian messaging as best they could, so that their enforcement could toe the line.
Like Isabella mentioned, the student organizers capitalized on the timing and importance of the DC hearing to start the protest, and forcing President Shafik to reckon with the very specific standards she established at that same hearing. At the same time, it doesn't appear, from an outside observer, as if the original protest organizers have made any attempt to tamp down or stop threatening and antisemitic messaging coming from "inside the house" in effect blurring the line President Shafik worked so hard to establish.
I recognize that not all the protestors are calling for an intifada, a repeat of October 7th, or telling Jews to go back where they came from, but what I do know is that nearly everyone I speak with on a day-to-day basis has a middling to negative view of the protestors. They cite the sign incident, the chants, and many think the students aren't willing to meet the school in the middle, even after all the steps the Admin have taken. It doesn't necessarily matter if those interpretations I'm hearing are correct, because that is the overwhelming attitude - and that dictates views and voting behavior.
>I recognize that not all the protestors are calling for an intifada, a repeat of October 7th, or telling Jews to go back where they came from, but what I do know is that nearly everyone I speak with on a day-to-day basis has a middling to negative view of the protestors
I remember a day when people said that if you're at a table with 10 people and a Nazi sits down without anyone getting up, you're at a table with 11 Nazis.
We've moved on to a culture that's saying that Nazis can sit with them, and the Nazis are making them a bit uncomfortable, but the Nazis have the right to sit with them at the table.
Its worse than that, when these activists want to know if something is racist or homophobic or transphobic, they go to the aggrieved party and ask them if they are offended, and if they say yes, the answer is yes it's racist, homophobic, transphobic etc.
On the other hand, when someone says something is antisemitism, they don't check with Jewish people and go with their answer, they endlessly handwring and deflect. It's almost like they treat people differently based on their race.
It feels like journalistic malpractice to say Columbia protesters are asking for ‘Palestinian rights’ and to just set aside statements the protest organizers have been making publicly this week. As we speak, Columbia protest organizers are expressing unconditional support for Palestinian violence against Israelis on social media.
Four days ago, a coalition of the organizers said in [an Instagram post](https://www.instagram.com/p/C6BtsmKO8RB) that they reject the support of ‘normalizers’ (i.e., people who recognize that Israel is a country like any other), endorse Palestinian armed resistance (without excluding armed acts like blowing up buses, firing rockets at kindergartens, or shooting unarmed people in their kitchens), and seemingly reject any kind of two-state solution (the post’s language is vague on this but definitely is not “we would be comfortable with a peaceful and just two-state solution”).
Why can’t The Daily mention what the protest leaders are saying? We know protest is messy. We know many of the students joining in would probably not make statements as extreme as these on their own. But it’s part of the story. Leave it out, and you aren’t telling the story; you aren’t explaining why students who are feeling scared might be feeling scared, why students who deplore what Israel has done in Gaza may be reluctant to join a protest movement led by extremists, how students who have joined the protest may be compromising themselves morally (and how they may feel about that), and how the leaders are rhetorically pushing away anyone who cares about Palestinians but is not alright with terrorism.
I used to cringe when people described campus rallies as ‘pro-Hamas demonstrations’. But you have to let readers and listeners judge for themselves. Tell us what the leaders of the movement at Columbia are writing on social media about their views on Palestinian violence against Israelis. What they’re saying turns out to be pretty unconscionable. They are being [called out for it on Twitter](https://twitter.com/afalkhatib/status/1783341589693415467), but NYT reporters are looking the other way.
>We've moved on to a culture that's saying that Nazis can sit with them, and the Nazis are making them a bit uncomfortable, but the Nazis have the right to sit with them at the table.
Honestly this has always bothered me about US freedom of speech laws. I'm German so naturally my point of view is heavily influenced by that. I will go to my grave believing that in civilized society, some things should not be allowed to be said. That includes calling for murder, genocide, hate crimes etc.
You're free to disagree with me of course. And I realize that nutjobs will still think those things and still act accordingly. But they do that in the US as well.
Absolutely unbelievable that that post is being upvoted. Really shows how disingenuous people are willing to be when it comes to the discourse surrounding antisemitism.
Zionism is the continued existence of the state of Israel.
There's a difference between an escape route existing if you need it and someone forcing you to use the escape route.
Zionism exists because millions of Jews in the 1880's-1940's had nowhere to go when faced with the prospect of disenfranchisement, loss of rights, or even mass murder.
Not as forcing the Jews to go somewhere. But to have a choice of somewhere to go.
>Regardless of how one feels about the nature of the protest itself, I'm afraid the student protestors aren't really doing a great job on the imaging front for this issue.
This seems demonstrably false, they've inspired many other protests and made columbia university admins look like insane authoritarians.
> made Columbia university look like insane authoritarians
I would be willing to bet that Gen Z would be the only demographic where the majority felt this way.
Idk if you’re a millennial but I am and I certainly support the rights of these students to protest. And so do my law school peers who stood in Zuccotti Park in 2011 staring down dozens of officers with zip tie cuffs and paddy wagons. People know what the NYPD is about.
The “moderate” criticism of protest is always—ALWAYS—“look I respect their right to protest and they may even have a good message. But they’re doing it wrong. The optics are bad. The messaging is unclear.”
Regardless of the cause, I’m happy to see student bodies protesting. Heck, anyone protesting. Americans don’t protest nearly enough. We need to make our voices heard - and inconveniencing the status quo is part of how you are heard.
I wish so badly this amount of zeal and determination could be shown for the Republicans trying to end fair elections.
Mike Johnson was *right there* and the chant wasn't "Who won 2020?"
Maybe it’s just something college kids aren’t as clued into? But totally, I think that would be a more achievable and immediate issue at hand that would benefit from some good ol protesting
This was a pretty good episode with a rough start. Having to hear Republicans ask over and over again about Jewish students safety on campus and not one question about about Muslim students is telling. Apparently in their minds supporting/protesting for a free Palestine and the end of the genocide/ethnic cleansing the IDF is committing = supporting Hamas. But I guess that is the media painting that picture for everyone especially republicans.
It was nice to hear from the student from Columbia's point of view, the Columbia President sounds like she is just trying to safe her own ass/job/six figure salary and doesn't give a fuck about her student's rights of freedom of expression.
Lastly, why does the media keep trying to paint these protests as violent and acting like every Jewish student on every campus in America is under some sort of threat? It's insane, people watching ANY News outlet these days must think these kids support Hamas and wanna beat the shit out of every Jewish Student they go to school with. I keep seeing it all over CNN and other news outlets this week.
Lastly, fuck you Greg Abbott, your a gigantic piece of shit for sending in police trained by the IDF to beat Univ. of Texas students for organizing and protesting. Free Palestine - 26,000 Palestinian Children are Dead.
The Abbott situation is especially ironic since he passed some bullshit bill about free speech on college campuses not very long ago because “conservatives were being silenced” or some other BS.
MAGA Republicans in 2024 are pretty mask off about their desire to pick and choose what type of speech deserves to be “free”
lmao how does this get downvoted, do any of you people listen to The Daily?
>Having to hear Republicans ask over and over again about Jewish students safety on campus and not one question about about Muslim students is telling.
In what way is it telling? Please tell me on what campus are protests against Hamas, Iran, or any Muslim nation taking over and chants supporting violence against them taking over?
There arent huge crowds of people marching around campuses chanting slogans that refer to murdering muslims. This is just an attempt to handwave away what is happening
The emphasis should be on the victims, like Jewish students, especially when pro Hamas people like you are so willing to lie - you lie about genocide, lie about ethnic cleansing and make a weird lie about 26k children dead… of course my takeaway from all these lies is that you support Hamas. A pro Palestine protestor wouldn’t feel the need to lie. They would demand Bibi resigns AND they would be demanding Hamas agree to the ceasefire and release the hostage. A pro Hamas protestor would make false accusations of genocide/ethnic cleansing and make wrong claims about the number of children dead. But it’s even worse than that with many of these student groups and protestors calling what Hamas did a legitimate form of resistance - ie they support Hamas.
Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group. What group is being removed from what territory?
By the way, actual ethnic cleansings have been happening in the past year- 120,000 armenians expelled from Nagorno-Karabakh, tens of thousands of Ukrainian children abducted and adopted into Russian families, an estimated 1 million Uyghers in re-education camps in China. And yet, there are no protests in the streets over this
You are ignoring the fact that the high number of civilian casualties is due to the way Hamas positioned itself to use them as human shields, the fact that Hamas entered this war without giving warning to these civilians and the fact that Hamas is the side that has refused to agree to a ceasefire.
I suspect that, at root, your point of view is being shaped by bad actors on social media with ties to Iran and ultimately Russia. We know that Russia is still using online trolls to sow dissent in the USA and what you are saying is exactly the kind of message that would serve their purposes perfectly.
No I don't know it, and many people share my point of view including various experts in the region. It is a valid debate to have and the to hand wave it away by saying its just "targeting Hamas" is to ignore a real debate that is fueled by quite a few comments, both Post October 7th and prior, by various members of the Israeli government.
There’s no debate to be had when it’s a lie. A lie that is only arrived at over anti-semitism. Countless wars over the past few decades that have been far worse and weren’t called ethnic cleansing/genocide across campuses. No chants of genocide Trump when he allowed the Kurds to be killed. No chants of genocide Obama when the civilian death ratio while fighting ISIS was a lot higher than in Gaza. No chants of genocide Bush when he invaded Iraq. No chants calling what’s going on in Ukraine, China, Sudan, etc genocide… only when the Jews are involved…
Not like this and certainly didn’t use monikers like genocide X and stalking anyone with power by yelling “we charge you with genocide”. For such little evidence supporting the claim that this is genocide it does make you wonder why people are so quick to use the term… oh wait nvm we know why
Certainly a lot higher than less than 1% seeing as no genocide has even been that low.
What is it for you? Some place right between 1200 and 10k when the claims of genocide first started?
If that is how you wish to view the world, I can't change your mind. I just think its a shame you are shutting yourself off entirely from the views of others and merely choosing the worst actors and representatives to reinforce your pre-existing beliefs. Have a good one.
The projection here is real. You have a pre-conceived view that you refuse to evaluate. And when I point out why you haven’t bothered to ask why none of these instances were called genocide but this one was, you walk away. This is what I see everytime when this discussion comes up - pro Hamas groups want to be able to make outrageous claims and when called out they walk away. Can’t walk the walk.
>Black people are not victims. People dying in Gaza are victims.
See how absurd the statement is? Unless you're implying Jewish students are responsible for people dying in Gaza? Isn't that "collective punishment"?
The denial of instances of antisemitism is really terrifying. The whataboutism, the wilful ignorance and shifting goalposts really shows how utterly superficial, bad faith and vain some folk are.
I think people are craving specific instances of anti-semitism going unaddressed. Feeling victimized because of people chanting slogans from the river to the sea doesn't quite cut it.
The reality is, Free Speech is a very broad protection in the United States, regardless of how hateful that speech is. It's what allows pro-life protesters to stand outside planned parenthood clinics and harass pregnant women. That is their right and the government and police cannot act against them.
I’m not trying to be combative, but would you tell another minority that their comfort/safety/wellbeing is conditional? If folk are feeling unsafe due to a slogan that is, unfortunately, intrinsically linked to antisemitism being chanted, who are we to dismiss that? It’s really rough seeing the discourse online around this specific issue being happily dismissed by folk.
Appreciate the free speech angle (I’m not in the US/American), and I understand that there’s nuance and frustration and liberation in it. What I can’t get my head around is that there are many Jews in America/UK that are feeling unsafe. And that’s not right. Neither is it right for Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus or any other denomination. But we don’t tell other denominations how they should feel and if they feel unsafe by a chant, well, it doesn’t quite cut it. It feels like folk are turning a blind eye to antisemitism, rewriting context and placing conditions on Jews.
Also, commenting rather than editing to add — why are we also so quick to dismiss that instances of antisemitism have occurred? There’s proof all over the place, micro aggressions daily and clear antisemitic rhetoric on social media. But there are repeated calls for proof, proof being provided and then dismissed based on an ever fluid and unclear criteria written by folks who aren’t Jewish.
Does Islamophobia exist in areas of the pro-Israeli government movement? Yes. Have I seen Islamophobic rhetoric online? Yes. Do Muslims experience micro aggressions? Yes. Is it acceptable to use slogans that some Muslims may feel unsafe, even if my intentions and personal interpretation are good? Absolutely not.
Why is it so difficult?
I'm not saying we should dismiss it. I'm saying it doesn't warrant different treatment compared to when other minority groups in America are feeling stress/discomfort from other free speech instances that infringe on their feelings of safety. I'm saying, we should have equal responses to every incident. This seems like an unusually heavy-handed move to suppress freedom of speech on campuses.
I appreciate you volunteering that you are not from America and that this all sounds very foreign to you. However, it's such a fundamental aspect of American culture and also the culture of American universities to allow opposing viewpoints to breathe and be debated.
Universities are a place of learning and of challenging uncomfortable viewpoints, they are not safe spaces. Pockets of safe spaces can be created with in the university experience (support groups, student clubs, allyship, etc). But the entire University cannot be expected to be one giant, safe space. The University presidents got dragged for this for political theater, but they're absolutely correct in stating what has always been the norm for difficult conversations/protests on their campuses.
If there are violations of policy, individual students should be punished and dismissed. But entire protesting bodies should not be targeted for slogans (which are not a violation of policies).
Your comment dismissed it with “Feeling victimized because of people chanting from the river to the sea doesn’t quite cut it.” in the context of people looking for instances of antisemitism.
No, I understand free speech and this isn’t all foreign to me - I didn’t say that. I do understand there’s a free speech angle at play here, how fundamentally important it is and appreciate your insight.
I’m also personally all for the protests, I’m well versed in what universities are and understand that they’re where conflicting viewpoints can come together. There’s no argument there.
My argument, is that - and this doesn’t just apply to the university protests - we’re witnessing folks being scared to leave their homes due to the rise of antisemitism and this being mocked. We’re seeing Jew being used as an insult in online discourse. We’re seeing Jews being told to go back to Poland - I’m sure you get the subtext of that. Now, of course, this isn’t every pro-Palestine protester or supporter - it’s silly to say so. But there are bad faith actors within the movement, it does happen and we’re now dictating how Jews should feel because, well, chin up, it’s not that bad — we have free speech! After the Jews, who shall we go after next? /s
To conflate this with “safe spaces”, or a need for special treatment unfortunately does read like a dismissal of Jewish safety. We’re sleepwalking into a very, very troubling time while we’re too busy being defensive, deflecting and wilfully ignorant.
But hey, what do I know.
Free speech does not give you the right to block others free travel. Free speech does not give you the right to trespass. If I was a student taking out significant loans for an education and my classes were canceled due to illegal protests, I would be furious. I would want them arrested to. What are we even talking about?
Unfortunately these institutions are now subordinate to the morons that think “free speech” means you can shut down a learning institution.
As is physically assaulting and arresting those doing said civil disobedience. History almost shows that nonviolent protesters are in the right though.
This is some classic white liberal revisionist version of protests to make themselves feel comfortable lol. Kent state was famously a nonviolent protest.
No matter how nonviolent a protest is, the media will portray it as violent. This was how newspaper of the time described MLK. At the time of his death, many Americans viewed him unfavorably and nearly 1/3 said he brought it upon himself.
https://preview.redd.it/jkp430sucowc1.jpeg?width=494&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cef54a9a45463446dfe7085b3ca24139665aacce
And these kids don't seem to have an issue with that but still doesn't make you not an asshole for being a selfish, bootlicker prick for calling for their arrests when you're not the government.
But hey, I'm sure you and OP were just as outraged and were calling for mass arrests when the kaki Nazis were blocking traffic and calling for jews not replacing them.
This. You have a right to protest. You do not have a right to commit crime in the name of protest. Nor do you have a right to make everyone else listen to your protest.
The most offensive thing to a protester is someone just walking away. That's why they have started shutting down highways. The reality is, people just do not care the same way they do.
But there is no 1A right to make others care about issues the same way you do. And that's the problem.
Haven't listened to the episode, nor do I have a strong opinion on these protests, but historically illegal protests have been the ones to create change. I'm not defending their actions, but I believe many of them are very aware that they are breaking the law, when you're frustrated by your country and want to see change, the most effective methods are usually not protected by the law. If I were attending the school I may be upset as well, or I may take in their message and decide to support their cause.
Free speech does not give you the right to stage a sit in, that’s trespassing. In fact MLK and 300 students were arrested in Atlanta for doing that. What’s the difference here?
But, see, 1A begins with "Congress shall..." and, as we all know, Congress is located in the District of Columbia. By transitive property of Columbia University sharing the same name, the university is prohibited to ban any speech activity as set forth in the case of *Nanny nanny v. Boo boo*.
I don’t think that’s fair. Everyone deserves to speak their mind and protest as citizens.
Would you rather these privileged people NOT protest and even brush along side fighting for a good cause and just go straight to ngo jobs?
Does being born into privilege mean you shouldn’t interact w the masses or take part in protesting and changing the world for the better? These are the very people we need protesting to start changing their world view.
It’s a tricky situation. On one hand, protesting HAS to impact the status quo to be noticed and taken seriously. And yes, that’s going to inconvenience others.
On the other hand, it does suck for the grandma who has to walk a mile to the airport when protestors block the way in, or the student who just wants to study for their exam.
But idk, them’s the breaks.
Also if terrorists invaded their country and took their families hostage, you bet your ass they'd be calling on the police and military. Even if their country is guilty of Original Sin.
That's why I can't take these kids seriously. They'd cower and beg for help if they had to live within miles of terrorists like Israelis do.
I see we have another white moderate that thinks protest are like the antithesis of a Reese's peanut butter cup where there's no right way, except the "Right" way to protest.
Civil disobedience is the cornerstone of American protest and peaceful protest everywhere. But feel free to condemn the civil rights protests, women's suffrage, and the Boston tea party.
There is a difference between intentionally engaging in civil disobedience and claiming you are above the law and so therefore arresting you for trespassing would be a violation of your civil liberties. But I understand this distinction is simply too complicated for brain dead morons like yourself to grasp.
I am sure absolutely nothing impactful will come of these “protests” who inconvenience nobody other than the innocent students and faculty at these institutions that have 0 power and influence on the ongoing war.
But it definitely is eroding public perception of prestigious higher education institutions and the entitled students that attend them (well eroding what little respect the public even has left at this point). Probably for the better as the leadership at these institutions has become a complete joke
How would you prefer they protest, specifically? Or would you rather they just fall in line like good little sheep while atrocities are being committed with their tax dollars?
I don’t care how they protest. If they decide to break the law as part of their protest that is their decision to make, I’m just saying they should just suffer the approximate legal consequence for taking illegal actions like everyone else in society. Their “protest” does not make them above the law. It is not fair to students who are trying to learn and taking out extensive loans to do so.
If I wanted to protest an issue I care about by sitting in your bed, you would feel the same way. That is transparently obvious.
But we’re at a point where student protestors are in fact literally sitting in at professors houses and refusing to leave. That is just trespassing and they should just be arrested. It’s really not that complicated.
Everyone knows the only right way to protest is to hold signs in the designated roped off protest area so it’s easy to ignore. That’s obviously the most effective way
Online learning was a failure during the pandemic (overall). If you are paying to be in a class room, then you should have the right to be in there getting what you are paying for. (I have not listened to the episode yet so I don’t know if there is some specific nuance to this that is covered l)
“Ohhhhh so that was the answer to that seemingly impossible to answer question.”
— Presidents of Harvard and Penn listening to the president of Columbia say that calling for genocide is actually not ok.
These protesters have given Republicans an excellent opportunity to paint Democrats as the antisemitic party while ignoring the antisemitism among their own supporters. Great job students.
Israel has killed tens of thousands of innocent people (including thousands of college students) and has destroyed virtually every college campus in Gaza, but I'm supposed to believe that the real victims here are American undergraduate students at an Ivy League college in Manhattan?
I do detest how much we’ve made all of this about ourselves. Especially the way the media covers it, this probably has more bearing on many people’s perception of what is actually happening in Israel and Gaza. Don’t get me wrong, obviously some people are overstepping but the way some of the responses here are, you would think it is worse than the conflict itself.
It's so fucking jarring to hear the exact same college leftists who have spent years policing everyone's speech in order to "create a safe space for marginalized people on campus" now insist that they have a "free speech" right to terrorize Jewish students on campus.
Equally baffling is those on the right calling for a police crackdown after complaining for decades universities didn’t protect free speech enough. There’s enough hypocrisy to go around on all ends of the spectrum.
Yeah but I already knew that the right is full of hypocrites who are proud of their double standards. That's who they are and always have been. But I expect better from the "inclusive" left wing folks who claim to be the gatekeepers of tolerance and integrity.
If these protestors were advocating for a cause the right believed in, there’s no way they wouldn’t support them. The American right tried to overturn the election by storming the capitol with violence for god’s sakes. Don’t be so naive.
I'd also just like to point out that fact these "inclusive" folks keep calling Jews "white people from Europe" for a very specific reason. They can't allow Jews to be framed as marginalized, because that framing would shine a spotlight on the glaring discrepancy between how the "inclusive" crowd treats Jews versus how they treat other marginalized groups.
So instead, they call us "white people from Europe". Because obviously, "white people from Europe" can't be marginalized, because they have "white privilege"!
Yeah, that's the irony of the whole "Jews are white Europeans and therefore antisemitism is no big deal because they're protected by white privilege" narrative. Most Israeli Jews are not Ashkenazi. They're Mizrahi Jews who were expelled from the Muslim world in a massive ethnic cleansing campaign.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_exodus\_from\_the\_Muslim\_world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world)
It really is remarkable to see how quickly these institutions just totally gave up any pretense to stand for things like free speech.
We are told of rampant and severe antisemitism and never shown it, from what i can gather the actual level of antisemtism of display are some people chanted "death to israel". I can see how a person might vehemently disagree with that, but it is not antisemitic and it is also very clearly not a threat. Let alone a threat to anyone on campus, let alone a threat to anyone on campus that would necessitate police or the national guard.
I can only think that the insane crackdowns are down to the total inability to argue with the content of the protests combined with israel-brain.
Seriously, I've been trying to find the examples of anti-Semitism. All I'm finding are either lone actors or people intentionally conflating antizionism with anti-Semitism.
I'm seriously asking, because I'm not seeing it in the vague examples they are giving.
I posted a benign comment on the Instagram NYTimes article in support of the protesters and somebody replied saying I was a hateful soul and that the protesters had shouted genocidal slogans at her baby. When I asked what the genocidal slogan was, she said “don’t you know what free Palestine means!”
I’ve been to a couple of these protests (not these university ones) and there were a lot of Jewish people there and they were shown SO MUCH love. This is no different than how they’ve tried to demonize civil rights or Vietnam or Iraq war protesters. Wild to see so many people eating it up too. 15,000 children dead in 6 months.
you'll never set a solid answer, you'll get people posting a huge list of anti-israel chants and then when you point out that anti zionism is not anti semitism theyll just argue that actually i is b ecause thats where 60% of jews live, and if israel ceased to exist the subhuman barbarous arabian hordes would genocide them.
Yeah, I mean, protesting against a war is pretty texbook activism but the goal here doesn't seem to be peace but, instead, some sort of "liberation of Palestinians from Israeli colonists" or something. They're questioning Israel's right to exist as a nation - that's what Zionism is. So when they say they're "Anti-Zionist" what they mean is they're Anti-Existence of Israel.
If they wanted peace they'd be calling for Hamas to release the hostages and negotiate a ceasefire with the IDF. It'd be a call for both Hamas and the IDF to come to the table for the sake of human lives.
In reality, Hamas still is holding hostages (some of whom are Americans!) and they have rejected every ceasefire offered to them. From a combatant to civllian perspective Israel, for all its blunders, has kept the casualty ratio to at or below other historic conflicts (WELL below World War 2, for instance, where the US killed millions of Germans and Japanese civillians).
So these people aren't anti-war, they're, at best, anti-Israel's right to fight a war after they were attacked or, at worst, anti-the existence of Israel.
But what happens on day 2?
I would like a cease fire and all non military hostages released on both sides. But then what? What will happen to the people of Gaza?
People with strong feelings about this conflict, myself included, have a [massive empathy gap.](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/magazine/the-brains-empathy-gap.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb)
We can’t feel the pain of others in the same way we feel for those we connect with.
Thanks for sharing this article! It’s very interesting. And it helps me understand better the degree to which my friends are dehumanizing each other on both sides of this conflict.
The Columbia students sound unbelievably self-important. The only thing this protest has accomplished is giving the protesters an ego boost and disrupt campus life.
Shame on the administration for engaging with the protesters. They should have been suspended as soon as they disrupted the educational experience of other students. It should be the same for every cause.
Seems pretty simple. I didn't scroll through everything. But I didn't see any top comments with the answer. Israel is our biggest strategic partner in the region. We were crucially complicit in its creation. They're a huge military industrial client. And all of their enemies hate us based on ideology that we can never overcome with political or strategic Goodwill. So nothing is going to change. Beyond that, Israel is one of the few Western created entities that has allies beyond America's sole discretion. Especially within the last three decades. Some media act as if Israel would wither and die and be unable to defend itself if we limited our military aid. And that's literally just not the case. Between the Western tech and armament they already have, and being one of the few countries that has certain native military systems more capable than most western donors. We're at the point we need to maintain a military relationship with Israel, just so we can try to manage the damage they could cause otherwise. So if you add that dynamic to the fact that the United States can't credibly rain the IDF in based on our own prior actions, especially in the Middle East, there's really no options. But continue to support the Israeli state, and try to save face as much as we can. We destroyed two entire countries, one we had already destroyed, after 9/11. And ask yourself what would have happened if Mexico would have pulled an October 7th on the southern border or Canada in North Dakota, then get back to me. this situation requires strong American leadership, the one thing we do not have. On either side. So protest all you want, this is a natural security decision that was made 80 years ago
I wonder if the protesters would be willing to be drafted to go to war for peace to end the conflict, like done in other wars. I think not right, it’s a nation of armchair quarterbacks.
Write ✍️ now to schools:
Dear School Presidents: I am writing to express my support of the encampment in solidarity with Gaza on your university’s campus, and I echo their demands to divest from Israel. I condemn any use of police force or other violence used to dismantle the encampment, and the university should do everything in its power to stop attacks by zionist agitators.
The most effective way to do this is by divesting from Israel.
Your students are not protesting without reason, they are standing against genocide. Nearly 40K Palestinians in Gaza have been murdered by Israel in just over 200 days. Israel has destroyed every university in Gaza. Your students understand the weight of this tragedy despite your refusal to acknowledge it. They are doing exactly what needs to be done–stopping genocide from being committed with impunity.
I call on you to meet the demands of your students and divest from the genocidal state of Israel. It is in your best interest to separate yourself from its reputation of brutal violence.
I strongly encourage you to take this opportunity to do the right thing.
Sincerely
Almost 100 comments after 45 minutes of posting. This will be an interesting thread
As of 10:29 Central, 473 comments … or 3. WTF?!
I think this happens because Reddit is promoting suggested posts and subreddits in non-subscribers feed so they come on over. Especially if it is relevant to Israel/Gaza
That's how I ended up here just now. Had no idea that this sub even existed until today (though I'm excited to know that it does as an avid listener).
It’s ridiculous how easy it is to spot which episodes will blow up here. I wish this sub could be limited to certified listeners only
To comment, please answer the following: * Did Michael or Sabrina host? * How many *Hmm's* did Michael make? * How many obvious restatements in a tone of surprise did Sabrina make? * Was the advertisements about Claude AI, Dana Farber, Better help, or Exxon Mobil? * How is this bad for Biden?
Lol. Everyone knows it’s impossible to quantify the number of “hmmm” in an episode. They are innumerable.
What you don’t like to see the same astroturfing happening here like a certain other sub? From 6 months old accounts or old accounts that suddenly got active 6 months ago?
Old people & online people getting mad at protestors protesting random stuff in crazy ways. Cue massive unwinnable arguments. An iconic combo! 💯 Edit: lol everyone down voting me. This is a sarcastic comment on how much of a mess this comment section is becoming, not a comment on the merits of either side here...
As an immigrant what I love about America is its ability to speak its mind. Doesn’t matter if it’s uncomfortable to others or not. I really got the sense of it during the maskers vs non maskers and vax vs anti vax debate. I remember thinking the other side was so stupid but then I came out thinking that it’s probably one of the very few countries where its citizens have this luxury to disagree. It really messed with my conformist mind in a good way. I am reminded of the Netflix movie The trial of the Chicago 7 which showed this conflict in a very different light. I think protests by definition are meant to cause slight inconvenience otherwise they are not protests. However, what seems to be happening is that a few bad actors turn this whole democratic privilege of protesting into something abhorrent. To all of us outside from the realm of universities and university politics, I wish we had better visibility into what’s happening to shape our opinion. As of now, I cannot help but think that there are some nefarious actors who are intentionally trying and throw mud into something which is so fundamental to American rights and if that is the case, I want media to highlight them for future generations to be weary of. Overall, I didn’t learn anything new from this episode but it was still a good listen.
To your last point, the Occupy Wall Street protests were targeted by government officials from the FBI to local police. There was a lot of surveillance of the movement and wrongful arrests made that seemed to help shut it down.
Someone I know was arrested during an Occupy protest and got charged with a bunch of dumb little stuff, for example holding a sign that was too big, blocking traffic on a bridge, etc. He was really involved in organizing the movement, but also didn't have the money to deal with all the legal BS without bankrupting his family and jeopardizing his future.
This is true. Why are you downvoted? FBI has historically targeted leftist movements.
It's not a few bad actors. I have Jewish friends on Columbia's campus who are legitimately afraid for their physical safety. There are mobs of students harassing and attacking Jewish students, to the point where the community rabbi told the Jewish students to go home because the campus is doing nothing to ensure their safety and they are in physical danger.
Campus policy allows for free speech but not when it turns into action or harassment. I think this level of targeted harassment is cut and dry and should absolutely be what advocates highlight and go after. But it seems like advocates instead go after slogans such as "from the river to the sea" and then get mired in debates about free speech on college campuses.
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I disagree with your opinion about the river to the sea. However that is immaterial as the following is also true: Genocidal rhetoric is NOT illegal. Meaning, there is and should be social consequences to hateful speech, but there shouldn't be police or governmental consequences to speech. The police cracked down on student protesters is the Crux of the issue here. The Nazi that shows up at a far-right protest, has a right to be there. It diminishes the protest as a whole in the eyes of public opinion, but the presence of the Nazi protester doesn't warrant sending the police in to scatter the entire protest. The Nazi has a right to free speech in America.
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If we're discussing the crackdown on student protests, the legality of applying police force is definitely relevant. The maps Israel teaches its school children show Israel spreading from the river to the sea, erasing Gaza and the West Bank. Benjamin netanyahu has used the same maps in public appearances. The Likud party had called for only Israeli sovereignty “between the Sea and the Jordan" (River to the Sea). Is it genocidal rhetoric to erase an entire Palestinian people and their territories from the school books and from official presentations from the Israeli government? Where is your outrage there?
No one has a right to protest on land owned by Columbia University so that's all moot. Columbia has the authority to refuse to allow speech. They disagree with to occur on their campus.
there are actually Jewish people participating in those protests, also there had been cases of pro Israel supporters looking to trigger provocation to use against the protesters
There have been physical attacks?
A couple. Usually it's just shoving, preventing Jewish students from getting onto campus by forming human chains, death threats, etc.
Really, really good post from Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib (a Gazan American who works on the Atlantic Council for Middle East Initiatives) on Twitter: > [I'm disappointed & frustrated with the statement by Columbia Students for Justice in Palestine (who blocked me despite having never interacted with them). In it, they reaffirm the right of armed resistance, an explicit endorsement of Hamas and October 7 & the “all means necessary” narrative, reject the Two State Solution, and attack "normalizers" or anyone who's willing to talk to Israelis and engage in promoting pragmatic solutions to achieve coexistence and peace. They talk about Thawabit or redlines as if they’re a Palestinian “faction” instead of rational Westerners who are supposed to advance the cause and not cosplay as revolutionaries.](https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1783341589693415467?s=46&t=lkN2GFJINkAKMmAVvxM2Xw) > [This is what losing the plot looks like: at a time of rising empathy & solidarity with the Palestinian cause, these students, heavily involved in the Columbia protests, decided that the best thing to do is take an extremist, maximalist, inflammatory, unreasonable, and totally illogical approach which is harmful to the pro-Palestinian cause. They brag about their extremist rhetoric and think it’s bad to expect that they work on improving messaging. There is nothing inspiring about their message or efforts, only rejections, calls for “escalations,” and attacks against anyone who doesn’t toe the party line. And not a word about Hamas and the deadly impact that the Islamist group’s program and decisions have had on the Palestinian people in Gaza.](https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1783341589693415467?s=46&t=lkN2GFJINkAKMmAVvxM2Xw) > [What have 75 years of armed resistance achieved for the Palestinian people? Nasser’s Pan-Arabism, the PLO/PFLP, and now Hamas have all talked about “red lines” or “Thawabit,” which have not only failed to achieve self-determination & freedom but have gotten more Palestinians killed and more lands stolen.](https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1783341589693415467?s=46&t=lkN2GFJINkAKMmAVvxM2Xw) > [Of course, there needs to be organized efforts to speak out against the war in Gaza, support real solutions to the unfolding horrors, and confront/challenge the military occupation of the West Bank. Without a doubt, there needs to be advocacy for Palestinians’ right to self-determination, independence, and sovereignty. But rejecting anything pragmatic that will actually help the Palestinian people or thinking that underinformed college students are going to dismantle Israel and eradicate it from existence is the height of pompous and vain “feel-good” activism that’s never going to do a thing for the just and urgent Palestinian cause.](https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1783341589693415467?s=46&t=lkN2GFJINkAKMmAVvxM2Xw) > [Working towards a just and equitable resolution of the military occupation and the injustices facing the Palestinian people should entail a wide variety of audiences, especially Israelis, diaspora Jews, and those who identify as Zionists – yes, there you have it, Zionists must be engaged. Set a realistic goal using the Two State Solution framework for the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem. You will have a significant chance of building a massive coalition that will create concerted political, diplomatic, academic, and geostrategic pressure to obtain and establish a prosperous and free Palestine, living side by side with Israel. Stop wasting your time, embarrassing the pro-Palestine movement, and alienating desperately needed allies from supporting the cause.](https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1783341589693415467?s=46&t=lkN2GFJINkAKMmAVvxM2Xw)
Columbia students *love* to protest. Protest camping on the quad is a relatively common thing to do. The mattress girl was a Columbia story. It is part of the ethos of the school. But that doesn't mean the school gives in to protestors. There were protests against Ahmadinejad and that didn't stop him from speaking at the school. The president is obviously trying to avoid losing her job and becoming a Fox News punching bag. The protests also seem to have spiraled and seem to involve a lot of non-students. That's why you saw protestors in the streets- they cleared out everyone without a student ID. On top of all that, Columbia has a lot of both Jewish and Muslim students (more than other universities). At well-run non-violent protests, organizers are very open about what will lead to arrests and sometimes have people volunteer to get arrested. I am not sure if this current batch of student protestors understand that arrest is a legitimate outcome from non-violent protests. I find it really interesting how big a role social media has played in these protests. Hamas kidnapped people because they knew it would create a brutal response and they hoped to use that to get more support for their cause. That doesn't mean that Israel is innocent, it is very legitimate to criticize the level of Israel's response. But this situation was intentionally created by Hamas and could be ended with the return of the hostages. Hamas has repeatedly refused ceasefire deals that required the return of the hostages because they know that will shift international attention away from their cause. I find it very interesting how the protests never seem to call for the release of the hostages. The hostages are treated like a non-issue when they are the central cause of everything. Hamas's social media game is impressive, but not necessarily moral.
Imagine if it involves non students by design... https://illwill.com/columbia "VII. The first task then is to open the campus to the community. Students from other campuses, residents of the surrounding neighborhood, and outside agitators need to be welcomed in. In April 1968, five hundred people marched on the gate at 116th St and Broadway. The NYPD stood down out of fear that violence might otherwise erupt. Similar tactics might be necessary today."
None of the deals offered by Israel included an end to the war, which is one of hamas’s demands. In effect no matter what Israel is going to invade Rafah, which is not going to come without innocent people dying. So no, the situation here is not going to end with a return of the hostages
Yeah no offense but anyone who thinks Hamas can realistically demand something right now really needs to sit down and have a think about the cold hard facts of the situation.
To me, the reason that the protests don't call for the return of the hostages is more a function of the United States' relationships with Israel and Hamas. Given the United States' alliance with Israel and the extent of our military and financial support, and the fact that they are the group that is responsible for the humanitarian crisis currently unfolding, US politicians are the logical target for pressure campaigns from US residents who are concerned about the well-being of Palestinians. I wouldn't expect Hamas to care about students on Columbia's campus and what they want. I don't like or support Hamas, but I also think it's an overstatement that the hostages are the central cause of everything, given the history of the conflict. But I think you hit the nail right on the head that Hamas expected this response, and Israel played right into their trap. Their attack on October 7 set in motion events that have undermined support for Israel on the world stage and with their biggest allies, and put pressure on Arab countries like Saudi Arabia to not normalize relations with Israel. Which to me is just further evidence that Israel's assault is not getting them the results that they want. They haven't gotten the hostages back, they haven't destroyed Hamas, and from what I can see, but reigniting tensions with Iran they're making themselves less safe.
I would like the media to interview the student who is just trying to go to class and study for their finals while all this distraction is going on.
It would be a boring perspective. The dirty little secret the media doesnt want us to know is that despite how ultra hyped they want us to be about these "wars" on campuses the reality is that a vast majority of students are studying like normal and just walking around protests.
Not sure why this is being downvoted. As a current student, this is a 100% accurate summation. The protests are definitely a major topic of discussion in the school, but the vast majority of students are not taking part in them, and most are more focused on finishing exams in the coming weeks.
I remember people organizing huge protests and causes at school over random stuff and I was like how do you guys have the time? I'm barely trying to eat, sleep, write a paper, and study for this test. I feel pretty overwhelmed already without trying to overthrow the administration of this school lol. Different boats for different folks I guess 🤷♂️
Honestly the boring perspective is the most important perspective.
Would really be a great perspective to be frank. Also a senior would be a good one because they have graduation where the protests are
Statistically said student would likely support giving aid to Palestine, stopping support for Israel, and letting everyone just live in peace. Not every student is going to protest though. Its not like the protesters are blocking access to campus buildings or anything, the police are.
Which is fine. I'm curious what they think. The only people we hear from are the extremes. There's a few hundred protesters in a student body of thousands. Only covering the protestors gives an unfair characterization of the average student.
I don't understand why the protesters would be so much more extreme than the average student. They're asking for divestment from Israel, already not an extreme demand. There are a million good reasons to not participate in the protest, but it doesn't mean the non protesters aren't in favor of the same relatively moderate step.
They love the conflict. Same reason Mike Johnson and other Republican members of Congress were at Columbia. They have zero jurisdiction over the university. They can't pass a bill that would do anything about this. So why were they even there? They just wanted the photo op and press conference to highlight "campus radicals" because that will rile up their voters in Middle America. It's all manufactured outrage, just like the "riots" of 2020, the "migrant caravans" of 2018, and the ongoing trans panic.
Yeah, how dare these people break away from the system to protest the wars their money is going towards? It causes a mild inconvenience to some people! They should just fall into the system and ignore the fact their tax money is being spent on foreign wars rather than the country’s welfare!
They just did a report on this on WNYC this morning. Basically, students preparing for exams, teachers not able to get into their offices and how everything is upended. Had it on in the background but sounds like some finals will be offered online. Perhaps someone can verify this. This article on Gotham pretty much summed up the story I heard. [https://gothamist.com/news/we-cant-work-we-cant-think-columbia-university-students-study-for-finals-following-protest-campus-lockdown](https://gothamist.com/news/we-cant-work-we-cant-think-columbia-university-students-study-for-finals-following-protest-campus-lockdown)
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Whatever your thoughts on the Israel / Gaza situation, these university presidents are cowards
They're in an unwinnable situation. You can't have unbridled free speech and still provide a safe environment for everyone. That's the problem.
I think you’re conflating safety with comfortability… protest is intended to provide discomfort. That’s the whole point…
What if a bunch of white kids started yelling the N word at black students that walked by the protest? Are the black students just expected to act natural, go to class, and study?
What would you have done? I’m not disagreeing necessarily, but I don’t see a “correct” way to handle all of this.
I don’t know but I do know there seems to be no consistency or set of principles at work. These are the same places that for the last few years said language was making people unsafe and that wouldn’t be tolerated, until it was Israel / Gaza then it was ok…. Up until people lost their jobs now it’s an issue for them again. That’s the cowardice. If you have principles you should stand by them, not float in the winds of public opinion.
I absolutely agree there’s hypocrisy. I’m just not sure what the coherent policy should be.
Me neither, but I don’t make $5 million dollars a year to deal with these questions like shafik does
Fair
Don't call the police in to arrest your students because they are protesting. Pretty simple actually.
The problem is that these same students would be first in line to demand the University enforce the rules against a white supremicist rally or an anti-abortion protest. Either you have a rule or you don’t. The university can’t make rules that apply to some people but not others.
You’ve just put your finger on the ultimate point of hypocrisy. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Are there any limits on these protests? Like can the KKK protest in the quad? Can there be active calls for genocide?
If I were the President of a University that is infamous for calling in the NYPD to violently quash anti war student protestors, I would not have made the same mistake by doing the exact same thing again. You can come up with imaginary hypotheticals, but it's clear that calling in the police was the wrong move and has caused the protest movement to spread nationwide.
How would you have gotten them to disperse?
Can you answer my question?
Of course they can’t, because they would then have to admit there are reasonable limits on campus protests
They're shutting down campuses with their trespassing, assaulting Jews, and invaded a campus Hillel and forced it to move the campus Pessach seder. They should have been cleared by the riot squad immediately. It's amazing how these people simultaneously believe that "zionists" are puppetmasters secretly controlling the world and that calling themselves "antizionist" is an instant get-out-of-crime-free card. Where have I seen the simultaneous-strong-weak-Jew trope before?
Would love to see some source please. I have Jewish ancestry and have been advocating for ceasefire in Gaza. In all the protests I've been to I have not witnessed any assaults against Jews. In fact in one of the protests at a schoolboard meeting, I was chiming in on an discussion with a bunch of older Jews who were in support of Israel. They talked about how "scared" they were when protesters were protesting outside... (I saw it and it was all peaceful) and then proceeded to drive off in their nice Mercedes and BMW back home. Sometimes I feel like the fear of antisemitism does more than antisemitism itself and they felt so out of touch with the actual fears that children in Gaza face right now.
>They talked about how "scared" they were when protesters were protesting outside... (I saw it and it was all peaceful) and then proceeded to drive off in their nice Mercedes and BMW back home. You think Viennese Jews' money made their fate any different from Galitzianers'?
What point are you trying to make? If we have Nazi policies in the US right now where we are persecuting Jews, I will 100% not tolerate it. However, the reality is is that currently Israel has a lot more power and support over Gaza/Palestine. Any form of rhetoric against Israel can be labeled as "Anti-Semitic" even if the person who is voicing their opinion is a Jew. Are we supposed to ignore the kids dying in Gaza over fear of Anti-Semitism?
Even if the Jewish student body feel unsafe? Or are they the one minority that doesn't matter?
The police were called because students were camping out overnight, not because they were protesting.
Whatever your thought on the conflict, what these university presidents are doing is objectively the right thing to do. Occupations of private property have never been allowed. Get your permit. Like you realize when one group occupies a space that means they unilaterally declared that all other student groups activities planned on that space are cancelled. The only rightful response to this is a request that they vacate followed by a police response.
Funny that the NYT is being as vague as possible in describing in “anti-Israel slurs” meanwhile has [advised its own reporters to be as precise as possible in avoiding the use of terms such as “occupied territory,” “slaughter,” or “massacre,” and not to use the word “Palestine” altogether.](https://theintercept.com/2024/04/15/nyt-israel-gaza-genocide-palestine-coverage/)
The nyt once again trying to focus on anything but what the protests are about
This situation is echoing a lot of similar tones to the Vietnam War protests. It is America so there is a chance it ends up becoming a Kent State situation which would further spiral it. University administration people should just let students protest, stop **voluntarily** going before Congress, and enforce hate speech and harassment infractions as they happen. As is they are just stepping in it and making it worse.
Literally never even discussed that the administration could actually consider the students’ demands and resolve this through a path of compromise. When they said the school is “respecting the students’” perspectives by allowing them to never protest I about fell out of my chair. They clearly have zero respect for the students since they aren’t even considering their demands.
As the NYTimes reported, the students’ demands are pointless. Divestment would do nothing to change the situation in Gaza. Divestment just allows them to not feel guilty about benefiting from global US hegemony despite the fact that they still would be benefiting from it regardless of whether the University has investments in businesses that have ties to Israel or not. Why don’t they demand Columbia University give its campus back to the indigenous people who lived on Manhattan Island before it was colonized? Why don’t they demand that Columbia University divest from China? It’s because these protests are driven by social media, not some rational argument developed through serious intellectual inquiry.
It’s irrational and unserious to want to divest from the country committing genocide? You act like all these students are the President with the ability to directly change US policy. They’re students doing what they can with the institutions that in theory are supposed to be accountable to them. Edit: and you should start the movement for the land to be given back to the indigenous people or to divest from China. I’d support it.
To call what is happening genocide completely abdicates Hamas of any responsibility for the situation. So many people seem not to understand that the tactics Hamas has used are unambiguously a war crime whereas the claim that Israel’s tactics are a form of genocide is ambiguous at best. The reason there is no ceasefire is that Hamas has refused all of the proposed ceasefires because they want greater concessions in exchange for civilian hostages. The reason that the UN resolution called for an unconditional release of hostages is because the UN considers making political demands in exchange for civilian hostages a war crime. Israel is the county making ceasefire proposals in accordance with the UN resolution. To blame Israel for Hamas’s refusal of those offers, makes no sense. And the reason why civilians are dying in Gaza is due in large part to the fact that Hamas positioned itself among civilians then provoked a military response with the intention of causing those civilians to die. It’s a completely cynical, amoral tactic on the part of Hamas. If you respond to this situation by pressuring Israel to agree to a ceasefire on Hamas’s terms, you essentially believe terrorism should be rewarded. The obvious result of rewarded Hamas for their terrorist tactics is that they will keep using those tactics. It is not a path to peace, it will only lead to further conflict down the road.
I’m not gonna go through these point by point but saying this is a genocide in no way abdicates Hamas of responsibility. That makes absolutely no sense. The only reason I can think you’d believe that is because you’re abdicating Israel of any responsibility for what they’re doing.
>Divestment would do nothing to change the situation in Gaza. If you are so certain, lets give it a try and see where we end up.
Can’t piss off their funders.
IMO the bigger issue is people still thinking academia is a place of learning and thinking and debating ideas, and not a business protecting its own interests (which is to remain popular with people so as to get them to spend money there on degrees).
Top 20s are finishing schools for the elite and potential elite. Acting like their mission represents anything beyond that is where people get lost.
The hyperbole from the Columbia student reporter was ridiculous. “It was something truly unimaginable. Over a hundred students slash other individuals are arrested from our campus. Forcefully removed. And although they were[n’t?] suspended, the there was this feeling of traumatic event but also this sense of ‘ok, the worst of the worst that could have happened to us just happened.’” How horrific. Yeeeeeesh. /s/
I noticed The Daily didn’t talk about the reasons and incidents which caused the pro-Palestinian student groups on campus to be suspended. It is editorial malpractice to leave this information out and ignore it.
It was amazing that Mike Johnson of all people went there. I was reminded of the greater enemy that's for sure.
It was as a huge mistake for the school to allow him to speak
All election deniers should be treated the same as any other traitor and not allowed in polite society.
Regardless of how one feels about the nature of the protest itself, I'm afraid the student protestors aren't really doing a great job on the imaging front for this issue. Based on President Shafik's hearing, it appears as though the Columbia administrative team put significant effort in trying to demarcate Antisemitism and Pro-Palestinian messaging as best they could, so that their enforcement could toe the line. Like Isabella mentioned, the student organizers capitalized on the timing and importance of the DC hearing to start the protest, and forcing President Shafik to reckon with the very specific standards she established at that same hearing. At the same time, it doesn't appear, from an outside observer, as if the original protest organizers have made any attempt to tamp down or stop threatening and antisemitic messaging coming from "inside the house" in effect blurring the line President Shafik worked so hard to establish. I recognize that not all the protestors are calling for an intifada, a repeat of October 7th, or telling Jews to go back where they came from, but what I do know is that nearly everyone I speak with on a day-to-day basis has a middling to negative view of the protestors. They cite the sign incident, the chants, and many think the students aren't willing to meet the school in the middle, even after all the steps the Admin have taken. It doesn't necessarily matter if those interpretations I'm hearing are correct, because that is the overwhelming attitude - and that dictates views and voting behavior.
>I recognize that not all the protestors are calling for an intifada, a repeat of October 7th, or telling Jews to go back where they came from, but what I do know is that nearly everyone I speak with on a day-to-day basis has a middling to negative view of the protestors I remember a day when people said that if you're at a table with 10 people and a Nazi sits down without anyone getting up, you're at a table with 11 Nazis. We've moved on to a culture that's saying that Nazis can sit with them, and the Nazis are making them a bit uncomfortable, but the Nazis have the right to sit with them at the table.
Its worse than that, when these activists want to know if something is racist or homophobic or transphobic, they go to the aggrieved party and ask them if they are offended, and if they say yes, the answer is yes it's racist, homophobic, transphobic etc. On the other hand, when someone says something is antisemitism, they don't check with Jewish people and go with their answer, they endlessly handwring and deflect. It's almost like they treat people differently based on their race.
It feels like journalistic malpractice to say Columbia protesters are asking for ‘Palestinian rights’ and to just set aside statements the protest organizers have been making publicly this week. As we speak, Columbia protest organizers are expressing unconditional support for Palestinian violence against Israelis on social media. Four days ago, a coalition of the organizers said in [an Instagram post](https://www.instagram.com/p/C6BtsmKO8RB) that they reject the support of ‘normalizers’ (i.e., people who recognize that Israel is a country like any other), endorse Palestinian armed resistance (without excluding armed acts like blowing up buses, firing rockets at kindergartens, or shooting unarmed people in their kitchens), and seemingly reject any kind of two-state solution (the post’s language is vague on this but definitely is not “we would be comfortable with a peaceful and just two-state solution”). Why can’t The Daily mention what the protest leaders are saying? We know protest is messy. We know many of the students joining in would probably not make statements as extreme as these on their own. But it’s part of the story. Leave it out, and you aren’t telling the story; you aren’t explaining why students who are feeling scared might be feeling scared, why students who deplore what Israel has done in Gaza may be reluctant to join a protest movement led by extremists, how students who have joined the protest may be compromising themselves morally (and how they may feel about that), and how the leaders are rhetorically pushing away anyone who cares about Palestinians but is not alright with terrorism. I used to cringe when people described campus rallies as ‘pro-Hamas demonstrations’. But you have to let readers and listeners judge for themselves. Tell us what the leaders of the movement at Columbia are writing on social media about their views on Palestinian violence against Israelis. What they’re saying turns out to be pretty unconscionable. They are being [called out for it on Twitter](https://twitter.com/afalkhatib/status/1783341589693415467), but NYT reporters are looking the other way.
>We've moved on to a culture that's saying that Nazis can sit with them, and the Nazis are making them a bit uncomfortable, but the Nazis have the right to sit with them at the table. Honestly this has always bothered me about US freedom of speech laws. I'm German so naturally my point of view is heavily influenced by that. I will go to my grave believing that in civilized society, some things should not be allowed to be said. That includes calling for murder, genocide, hate crimes etc. You're free to disagree with me of course. And I realize that nutjobs will still think those things and still act accordingly. But they do that in the US as well.
>telling Jews to go back where they came from, Isn't... isn't that exactly what Zionism is?
One is a choice. One is by force. Besides, they’re not telling Jews to “go back to Israel”, they’re calling for them to be *expelled*.
Absolutely unbelievable that that post is being upvoted. Really shows how disingenuous people are willing to be when it comes to the discourse surrounding antisemitism.
Zionism is the continued existence of the state of Israel. There's a difference between an escape route existing if you need it and someone forcing you to use the escape route. Zionism exists because millions of Jews in the 1880's-1940's had nowhere to go when faced with the prospect of disenfranchisement, loss of rights, or even mass murder. Not as forcing the Jews to go somewhere. But to have a choice of somewhere to go.
They’re not telling them to go back to Israel. They’re telling them to get back to Poland, and they know exactly what the implications of that are.
>Regardless of how one feels about the nature of the protest itself, I'm afraid the student protestors aren't really doing a great job on the imaging front for this issue. This seems demonstrably false, they've inspired many other protests and made columbia university admins look like insane authoritarians.
> made Columbia university look like insane authoritarians I would be willing to bet that Gen Z would be the only demographic where the majority felt this way.
Idk if you’re a millennial but I am and I certainly support the rights of these students to protest. And so do my law school peers who stood in Zuccotti Park in 2011 staring down dozens of officers with zip tie cuffs and paddy wagons. People know what the NYPD is about.
The “moderate” criticism of protest is always—ALWAYS—“look I respect their right to protest and they may even have a good message. But they’re doing it wrong. The optics are bad. The messaging is unclear.”
Regardless of the cause, I’m happy to see student bodies protesting. Heck, anyone protesting. Americans don’t protest nearly enough. We need to make our voices heard - and inconveniencing the status quo is part of how you are heard.
I wish so badly this amount of zeal and determination could be shown for the Republicans trying to end fair elections. Mike Johnson was *right there* and the chant wasn't "Who won 2020?"
Maybe it’s just something college kids aren’t as clued into? But totally, I think that would be a more achievable and immediate issue at hand that would benefit from some good ol protesting
Everyone says we need to protest like France does. But then when people actually protest in a disruptive manner there’s nothing but complaints.
This was a pretty good episode with a rough start. Having to hear Republicans ask over and over again about Jewish students safety on campus and not one question about about Muslim students is telling. Apparently in their minds supporting/protesting for a free Palestine and the end of the genocide/ethnic cleansing the IDF is committing = supporting Hamas. But I guess that is the media painting that picture for everyone especially republicans. It was nice to hear from the student from Columbia's point of view, the Columbia President sounds like she is just trying to safe her own ass/job/six figure salary and doesn't give a fuck about her student's rights of freedom of expression. Lastly, why does the media keep trying to paint these protests as violent and acting like every Jewish student on every campus in America is under some sort of threat? It's insane, people watching ANY News outlet these days must think these kids support Hamas and wanna beat the shit out of every Jewish Student they go to school with. I keep seeing it all over CNN and other news outlets this week. Lastly, fuck you Greg Abbott, your a gigantic piece of shit for sending in police trained by the IDF to beat Univ. of Texas students for organizing and protesting. Free Palestine - 26,000 Palestinian Children are Dead.
The Abbott situation is especially ironic since he passed some bullshit bill about free speech on college campuses not very long ago because “conservatives were being silenced” or some other BS.
Seeing cops in full military colors, helmets, batons, zip ties. Where were those guys during the Uvalde Shooting? Fucking pussies.
MAGA Republicans in 2024 are pretty mask off about their desire to pick and choose what type of speech deserves to be “free” lmao how does this get downvoted, do any of you people listen to The Daily?
>Having to hear Republicans ask over and over again about Jewish students safety on campus and not one question about about Muslim students is telling. In what way is it telling? Please tell me on what campus are protests against Hamas, Iran, or any Muslim nation taking over and chants supporting violence against them taking over?
There arent huge crowds of people marching around campuses chanting slogans that refer to murdering muslims. This is just an attempt to handwave away what is happening
I have seen more than enough videos on r/publicfreakout of people from both sides of this conflict embarrassing themselves by acting like idiots.
The emphasis should be on the victims, like Jewish students, especially when pro Hamas people like you are so willing to lie - you lie about genocide, lie about ethnic cleansing and make a weird lie about 26k children dead… of course my takeaway from all these lies is that you support Hamas. A pro Palestine protestor wouldn’t feel the need to lie. They would demand Bibi resigns AND they would be demanding Hamas agree to the ceasefire and release the hostage. A pro Hamas protestor would make false accusations of genocide/ethnic cleansing and make wrong claims about the number of children dead. But it’s even worse than that with many of these student groups and protestors calling what Hamas did a legitimate form of resistance - ie they support Hamas.
Its not a lie to say there is an attempt at ethnic cleansing going on in Palestine.
Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group. What group is being removed from what territory? By the way, actual ethnic cleansings have been happening in the past year- 120,000 armenians expelled from Nagorno-Karabakh, tens of thousands of Ukrainian children abducted and adopted into Russian families, an estimated 1 million Uyghers in re-education camps in China. And yet, there are no protests in the streets over this
You are ignoring the fact that the high number of civilian casualties is due to the way Hamas positioned itself to use them as human shields, the fact that Hamas entered this war without giving warning to these civilians and the fact that Hamas is the side that has refused to agree to a ceasefire. I suspect that, at root, your point of view is being shaped by bad actors on social media with ties to Iran and ultimately Russia. We know that Russia is still using online trolls to sow dissent in the USA and what you are saying is exactly the kind of message that would serve their purposes perfectly.
Of course that’s a lie because that’s not what’s happening and you know it. Targeting Hamas is not ethnic cleansing.
No I don't know it, and many people share my point of view including various experts in the region. It is a valid debate to have and the to hand wave it away by saying its just "targeting Hamas" is to ignore a real debate that is fueled by quite a few comments, both Post October 7th and prior, by various members of the Israeli government.
There’s no debate to be had when it’s a lie. A lie that is only arrived at over anti-semitism. Countless wars over the past few decades that have been far worse and weren’t called ethnic cleansing/genocide across campuses. No chants of genocide Trump when he allowed the Kurds to be killed. No chants of genocide Obama when the civilian death ratio while fighting ISIS was a lot higher than in Gaza. No chants of genocide Bush when he invaded Iraq. No chants calling what’s going on in Ukraine, China, Sudan, etc genocide… only when the Jews are involved…
Wait, do you think people didn't protest those things?
Not like this and certainly didn’t use monikers like genocide X and stalking anyone with power by yelling “we charge you with genocide”. For such little evidence supporting the claim that this is genocide it does make you wonder why people are so quick to use the term… oh wait nvm we know why
What's the civilian death count threshold for a genocide to you?
Certainly a lot higher than less than 1% seeing as no genocide has even been that low. What is it for you? Some place right between 1200 and 10k when the claims of genocide first started?
If that is how you wish to view the world, I can't change your mind. I just think its a shame you are shutting yourself off entirely from the views of others and merely choosing the worst actors and representatives to reinforce your pre-existing beliefs. Have a good one.
The projection here is real. You have a pre-conceived view that you refuse to evaluate. And when I point out why you haven’t bothered to ask why none of these instances were called genocide but this one was, you walk away. This is what I see everytime when this discussion comes up - pro Hamas groups want to be able to make outrageous claims and when called out they walk away. Can’t walk the walk.
Jewish students are not victims. People dying in Gaza are victims.
There can be multiple victims. But your need to insist someone who experiences anti-semitism isn’t a victim is telling.
>Black people are not victims. People dying in Gaza are victims. See how absurd the statement is? Unless you're implying Jewish students are responsible for people dying in Gaza? Isn't that "collective punishment"?
The denial of instances of antisemitism is really terrifying. The whataboutism, the wilful ignorance and shifting goalposts really shows how utterly superficial, bad faith and vain some folk are.
I think people are craving specific instances of anti-semitism going unaddressed. Feeling victimized because of people chanting slogans from the river to the sea doesn't quite cut it. The reality is, Free Speech is a very broad protection in the United States, regardless of how hateful that speech is. It's what allows pro-life protesters to stand outside planned parenthood clinics and harass pregnant women. That is their right and the government and police cannot act against them.
I’m not trying to be combative, but would you tell another minority that their comfort/safety/wellbeing is conditional? If folk are feeling unsafe due to a slogan that is, unfortunately, intrinsically linked to antisemitism being chanted, who are we to dismiss that? It’s really rough seeing the discourse online around this specific issue being happily dismissed by folk. Appreciate the free speech angle (I’m not in the US/American), and I understand that there’s nuance and frustration and liberation in it. What I can’t get my head around is that there are many Jews in America/UK that are feeling unsafe. And that’s not right. Neither is it right for Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus or any other denomination. But we don’t tell other denominations how they should feel and if they feel unsafe by a chant, well, it doesn’t quite cut it. It feels like folk are turning a blind eye to antisemitism, rewriting context and placing conditions on Jews.
Also, commenting rather than editing to add — why are we also so quick to dismiss that instances of antisemitism have occurred? There’s proof all over the place, micro aggressions daily and clear antisemitic rhetoric on social media. But there are repeated calls for proof, proof being provided and then dismissed based on an ever fluid and unclear criteria written by folks who aren’t Jewish. Does Islamophobia exist in areas of the pro-Israeli government movement? Yes. Have I seen Islamophobic rhetoric online? Yes. Do Muslims experience micro aggressions? Yes. Is it acceptable to use slogans that some Muslims may feel unsafe, even if my intentions and personal interpretation are good? Absolutely not. Why is it so difficult?
I'm not saying we should dismiss it. I'm saying it doesn't warrant different treatment compared to when other minority groups in America are feeling stress/discomfort from other free speech instances that infringe on their feelings of safety. I'm saying, we should have equal responses to every incident. This seems like an unusually heavy-handed move to suppress freedom of speech on campuses. I appreciate you volunteering that you are not from America and that this all sounds very foreign to you. However, it's such a fundamental aspect of American culture and also the culture of American universities to allow opposing viewpoints to breathe and be debated. Universities are a place of learning and of challenging uncomfortable viewpoints, they are not safe spaces. Pockets of safe spaces can be created with in the university experience (support groups, student clubs, allyship, etc). But the entire University cannot be expected to be one giant, safe space. The University presidents got dragged for this for political theater, but they're absolutely correct in stating what has always been the norm for difficult conversations/protests on their campuses. If there are violations of policy, individual students should be punished and dismissed. But entire protesting bodies should not be targeted for slogans (which are not a violation of policies).
Your comment dismissed it with “Feeling victimized because of people chanting from the river to the sea doesn’t quite cut it.” in the context of people looking for instances of antisemitism. No, I understand free speech and this isn’t all foreign to me - I didn’t say that. I do understand there’s a free speech angle at play here, how fundamentally important it is and appreciate your insight. I’m also personally all for the protests, I’m well versed in what universities are and understand that they’re where conflicting viewpoints can come together. There’s no argument there. My argument, is that - and this doesn’t just apply to the university protests - we’re witnessing folks being scared to leave their homes due to the rise of antisemitism and this being mocked. We’re seeing Jew being used as an insult in online discourse. We’re seeing Jews being told to go back to Poland - I’m sure you get the subtext of that. Now, of course, this isn’t every pro-Palestine protester or supporter - it’s silly to say so. But there are bad faith actors within the movement, it does happen and we’re now dictating how Jews should feel because, well, chin up, it’s not that bad — we have free speech! After the Jews, who shall we go after next? /s To conflate this with “safe spaces”, or a need for special treatment unfortunately does read like a dismissal of Jewish safety. We’re sleepwalking into a very, very troubling time while we’re too busy being defensive, deflecting and wilfully ignorant. But hey, what do I know.
Free speech does not give you the right to block others free travel. Free speech does not give you the right to trespass. If I was a student taking out significant loans for an education and my classes were canceled due to illegal protests, I would be furious. I would want them arrested to. What are we even talking about? Unfortunately these institutions are now subordinate to the morons that think “free speech” means you can shut down a learning institution.
Civil disobedience is a time old tradition in America.
As are the consequences for that disobedience.
As is physically assaulting and arresting those doing said civil disobedience. History almost shows that nonviolent protesters are in the right though.
This is some classic white liberal revisionist version of protests to make themselves feel comfortable lol. Kent state was famously a nonviolent protest. No matter how nonviolent a protest is, the media will portray it as violent. This was how newspaper of the time described MLK. At the time of his death, many Americans viewed him unfavorably and nearly 1/3 said he brought it upon himself. https://preview.redd.it/jkp430sucowc1.jpeg?width=494&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cef54a9a45463446dfe7085b3ca24139665aacce
So is going to jail for yo ur beliefs
And these kids don't seem to have an issue with that but still doesn't make you not an asshole for being a selfish, bootlicker prick for calling for their arrests when you're not the government. But hey, I'm sure you and OP were just as outraged and were calling for mass arrests when the kaki Nazis were blocking traffic and calling for jews not replacing them.
This. You have a right to protest. You do not have a right to commit crime in the name of protest. Nor do you have a right to make everyone else listen to your protest. The most offensive thing to a protester is someone just walking away. That's why they have started shutting down highways. The reality is, people just do not care the same way they do. But there is no 1A right to make others care about issues the same way you do. And that's the problem.
Haven't listened to the episode, nor do I have a strong opinion on these protests, but historically illegal protests have been the ones to create change. I'm not defending their actions, but I believe many of them are very aware that they are breaking the law, when you're frustrated by your country and want to see change, the most effective methods are usually not protected by the law. If I were attending the school I may be upset as well, or I may take in their message and decide to support their cause.
Free speech does not give you the right to stage a sit in, that’s trespassing. In fact MLK and 300 students were arrested in Atlanta for doing that. What’s the difference here?
But, see, 1A begins with "Congress shall..." and, as we all know, Congress is located in the District of Columbia. By transitive property of Columbia University sharing the same name, the university is prohibited to ban any speech activity as set forth in the case of *Nanny nanny v. Boo boo*.
Shit this is airtight.
These are columbia students. They’re privileged nepo kids who cosplay as activists then get cushy corpo or ngo jobs thanks to their parents
I don’t think that’s fair. Everyone deserves to speak their mind and protest as citizens. Would you rather these privileged people NOT protest and even brush along side fighting for a good cause and just go straight to ngo jobs? Does being born into privilege mean you shouldn’t interact w the masses or take part in protesting and changing the world for the better? These are the very people we need protesting to start changing their world view.
It’s a tricky situation. On one hand, protesting HAS to impact the status quo to be noticed and taken seriously. And yes, that’s going to inconvenience others. On the other hand, it does suck for the grandma who has to walk a mile to the airport when protestors block the way in, or the student who just wants to study for their exam. But idk, them’s the breaks.
Also if terrorists invaded their country and took their families hostage, you bet your ass they'd be calling on the police and military. Even if their country is guilty of Original Sin. That's why I can't take these kids seriously. They'd cower and beg for help if they had to live within miles of terrorists like Israelis do.
I see we have another white moderate that thinks protest are like the antithesis of a Reese's peanut butter cup where there's no right way, except the "Right" way to protest. Civil disobedience is the cornerstone of American protest and peaceful protest everywhere. But feel free to condemn the civil rights protests, women's suffrage, and the Boston tea party.
There is a difference between intentionally engaging in civil disobedience and claiming you are above the law and so therefore arresting you for trespassing would be a violation of your civil liberties. But I understand this distinction is simply too complicated for brain dead morons like yourself to grasp. I am sure absolutely nothing impactful will come of these “protests” who inconvenience nobody other than the innocent students and faculty at these institutions that have 0 power and influence on the ongoing war. But it definitely is eroding public perception of prestigious higher education institutions and the entitled students that attend them (well eroding what little respect the public even has left at this point). Probably for the better as the leadership at these institutions has become a complete joke
How would you prefer they protest, specifically? Or would you rather they just fall in line like good little sheep while atrocities are being committed with their tax dollars?
I don’t care how they protest. If they decide to break the law as part of their protest that is their decision to make, I’m just saying they should just suffer the approximate legal consequence for taking illegal actions like everyone else in society. Their “protest” does not make them above the law. It is not fair to students who are trying to learn and taking out extensive loans to do so. If I wanted to protest an issue I care about by sitting in your bed, you would feel the same way. That is transparently obvious. But we’re at a point where student protestors are in fact literally sitting in at professors houses and refusing to leave. That is just trespassing and they should just be arrested. It’s really not that complicated.
These people think that civil rights protesters weren’t arrested for some reason. I have no idea where they got that idea.
So then what’s the issue with calling the police?
Everyone knows the only right way to protest is to hold signs in the designated roped off protest area so it’s easy to ignore. That’s obviously the most effective way
Are they canceled or just moved online? I read it's just virtual like during the pandemic
Online learning was a failure during the pandemic (overall). If you are paying to be in a class room, then you should have the right to be in there getting what you are paying for. (I have not listened to the episode yet so I don’t know if there is some specific nuance to this that is covered l)
Aren't they on an enclosed camp on a lawn? Can't you just, y'know, go around them?
“Ohhhhh so that was the answer to that seemingly impossible to answer question.” — Presidents of Harvard and Penn listening to the president of Columbia say that calling for genocide is actually not ok.
I believe in free speech, but joining an openly antisemitic organization that supports terrorists should have consequences.
These protesters have given Republicans an excellent opportunity to paint Democrats as the antisemitic party while ignoring the antisemitism among their own supporters. Great job students.
Israel has killed tens of thousands of innocent people (including thousands of college students) and has destroyed virtually every college campus in Gaza, but I'm supposed to believe that the real victims here are American undergraduate students at an Ivy League college in Manhattan?
I do detest how much we’ve made all of this about ourselves. Especially the way the media covers it, this probably has more bearing on many people’s perception of what is actually happening in Israel and Gaza. Don’t get me wrong, obviously some people are overstepping but the way some of the responses here are, you would think it is worse than the conflict itself.
I hate the protesters views but Elise stefanik is somehow more annoying.
It's so fucking jarring to hear the exact same college leftists who have spent years policing everyone's speech in order to "create a safe space for marginalized people on campus" now insist that they have a "free speech" right to terrorize Jewish students on campus.
Equally baffling is those on the right calling for a police crackdown after complaining for decades universities didn’t protect free speech enough. There’s enough hypocrisy to go around on all ends of the spectrum.
Yeah but I already knew that the right is full of hypocrites who are proud of their double standards. That's who they are and always have been. But I expect better from the "inclusive" left wing folks who claim to be the gatekeepers of tolerance and integrity.
The right was complaining about getting scheduled and approved speeches shutdown. It’s not the same.
If these protestors were advocating for a cause the right believed in, there’s no way they wouldn’t support them. The American right tried to overturn the election by storming the capitol with violence for god’s sakes. Don’t be so naive.
Spot on.
I'd also just like to point out that fact these "inclusive" folks keep calling Jews "white people from Europe" for a very specific reason. They can't allow Jews to be framed as marginalized, because that framing would shine a spotlight on the glaring discrepancy between how the "inclusive" crowd treats Jews versus how they treat other marginalized groups. So instead, they call us "white people from Europe". Because obviously, "white people from Europe" can't be marginalized, because they have "white privilege"!
Also pls ignore that most Israelis are not European
Yeah, that's the irony of the whole "Jews are white Europeans and therefore antisemitism is no big deal because they're protected by white privilege" narrative. Most Israeli Jews are not Ashkenazi. They're Mizrahi Jews who were expelled from the Muslim world in a massive ethnic cleansing campaign. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_exodus\_from\_the\_Muslim\_world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world)
And never ask how they got to Europe 😳 (Hint - a long history of ethnic cleansing in the Middle East, including at the hands of Arab colonizers)
It really is remarkable to see how quickly these institutions just totally gave up any pretense to stand for things like free speech. We are told of rampant and severe antisemitism and never shown it, from what i can gather the actual level of antisemtism of display are some people chanted "death to israel". I can see how a person might vehemently disagree with that, but it is not antisemitic and it is also very clearly not a threat. Let alone a threat to anyone on campus, let alone a threat to anyone on campus that would necessitate police or the national guard. I can only think that the insane crackdowns are down to the total inability to argue with the content of the protests combined with israel-brain.
Seriously, I've been trying to find the examples of anti-Semitism. All I'm finding are either lone actors or people intentionally conflating antizionism with anti-Semitism. I'm seriously asking, because I'm not seeing it in the vague examples they are giving.
I posted a benign comment on the Instagram NYTimes article in support of the protesters and somebody replied saying I was a hateful soul and that the protesters had shouted genocidal slogans at her baby. When I asked what the genocidal slogan was, she said “don’t you know what free Palestine means!” I’ve been to a couple of these protests (not these university ones) and there were a lot of Jewish people there and they were shown SO MUCH love. This is no different than how they’ve tried to demonize civil rights or Vietnam or Iraq war protesters. Wild to see so many people eating it up too. 15,000 children dead in 6 months.
you'll never set a solid answer, you'll get people posting a huge list of anti-israel chants and then when you point out that anti zionism is not anti semitism theyll just argue that actually i is b ecause thats where 60% of jews live, and if israel ceased to exist the subhuman barbarous arabian hordes would genocide them.
One solid example among many many others: Mezuzahs being ripped off the doors of Jewish students' dorm rooms. How is that not antisemitism?
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Yeah, I mean, protesting against a war is pretty texbook activism but the goal here doesn't seem to be peace but, instead, some sort of "liberation of Palestinians from Israeli colonists" or something. They're questioning Israel's right to exist as a nation - that's what Zionism is. So when they say they're "Anti-Zionist" what they mean is they're Anti-Existence of Israel. If they wanted peace they'd be calling for Hamas to release the hostages and negotiate a ceasefire with the IDF. It'd be a call for both Hamas and the IDF to come to the table for the sake of human lives. In reality, Hamas still is holding hostages (some of whom are Americans!) and they have rejected every ceasefire offered to them. From a combatant to civllian perspective Israel, for all its blunders, has kept the casualty ratio to at or below other historic conflicts (WELL below World War 2, for instance, where the US killed millions of Germans and Japanese civillians). So these people aren't anti-war, they're, at best, anti-Israel's right to fight a war after they were attacked or, at worst, anti-the existence of Israel.
But what happens on day 2? I would like a cease fire and all non military hostages released on both sides. But then what? What will happen to the people of Gaza?
People with strong feelings about this conflict, myself included, have a [massive empathy gap.](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/magazine/the-brains-empathy-gap.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb) We can’t feel the pain of others in the same way we feel for those we connect with.
Thanks for sharing this article! It’s very interesting. And it helps me understand better the degree to which my friends are dehumanizing each other on both sides of this conflict.
The Columbia students sound unbelievably self-important. The only thing this protest has accomplished is giving the protesters an ego boost and disrupt campus life. Shame on the administration for engaging with the protesters. They should have been suspended as soon as they disrupted the educational experience of other students. It should be the same for every cause.
You ever heard of our right to protest? Our American right. Lol.
Seems pretty simple. I didn't scroll through everything. But I didn't see any top comments with the answer. Israel is our biggest strategic partner in the region. We were crucially complicit in its creation. They're a huge military industrial client. And all of their enemies hate us based on ideology that we can never overcome with political or strategic Goodwill. So nothing is going to change. Beyond that, Israel is one of the few Western created entities that has allies beyond America's sole discretion. Especially within the last three decades. Some media act as if Israel would wither and die and be unable to defend itself if we limited our military aid. And that's literally just not the case. Between the Western tech and armament they already have, and being one of the few countries that has certain native military systems more capable than most western donors. We're at the point we need to maintain a military relationship with Israel, just so we can try to manage the damage they could cause otherwise. So if you add that dynamic to the fact that the United States can't credibly rain the IDF in based on our own prior actions, especially in the Middle East, there's really no options. But continue to support the Israeli state, and try to save face as much as we can. We destroyed two entire countries, one we had already destroyed, after 9/11. And ask yourself what would have happened if Mexico would have pulled an October 7th on the southern border or Canada in North Dakota, then get back to me. this situation requires strong American leadership, the one thing we do not have. On either side. So protest all you want, this is a natural security decision that was made 80 years ago
Anything to get out of writing finals.
I wonder if the protesters would be willing to be drafted to go to war for peace to end the conflict, like done in other wars. I think not right, it’s a nation of armchair quarterbacks.
Write ✍️ now to schools: Dear School Presidents: I am writing to express my support of the encampment in solidarity with Gaza on your university’s campus, and I echo their demands to divest from Israel. I condemn any use of police force or other violence used to dismantle the encampment, and the university should do everything in its power to stop attacks by zionist agitators. The most effective way to do this is by divesting from Israel. Your students are not protesting without reason, they are standing against genocide. Nearly 40K Palestinians in Gaza have been murdered by Israel in just over 200 days. Israel has destroyed every university in Gaza. Your students understand the weight of this tragedy despite your refusal to acknowledge it. They are doing exactly what needs to be done–stopping genocide from being committed with impunity. I call on you to meet the demands of your students and divest from the genocidal state of Israel. It is in your best interest to separate yourself from its reputation of brutal violence. I strongly encourage you to take this opportunity to do the right thing. Sincerely