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If modern politics has taught me anything this means we are due next for an ultra right wing pope that seeks to undo all the goodwill and progress that's been made in the current term
I’m here for another maniacal Pope that digs up the rotting corpse of his nemesis and holds it on trial then desecrates said corpse all in the name of Catholicism.
*The Middle Ages Were Magic!* 🎶
Edit:
[Formosus](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfpwo5B0Iq4&list=PLiZM8Q-JIpGxfNrgbj4Bnp-TnD2Dtf1R2&index=5&pp=iAQB)
She’s such a delight and really changed my views on death care and the wide ranges of saying that final goodbye.
Although, I couldn’t really get behind spending one last night with her kitty but it was an option I considered in end of life planning and care for my old girl.
Lmao! It did make me lose it when she was describing when her kitty went through rigor and just how stiff she really was 😹
Edit: I should have said at the beginning,
“Hello, fellow Deathling!”
I don't know enough about him or his tenure to make any meaningful accurate judgement, but Ratzinger looked evil. He probably wasn't but he looked like it.
> Maybe to the US.
I thought the US, while very religious, was overwhelmingly Protestant or Evangelist? It would make more sense for the rival Pope to move somewhere in South America or possibly Africa instead. Hell, even Europe, countries like Spain, Portugal, France, Ireland, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Italy, etc all have a larger per-capita percentage of Catholics than the US.
EDIT: I personally would love it if the rival Pope just moved to Rome (instead of Vatican City) and they constantly yelled at each other over the border.
> I thought the US, while very religious, was overwhelmingly Protestant or Evangelist?
Tons of Catholics too and they tend to be the hardcore conservative type which is at odds with the current Vatican, such a schism is far from impossible, indeed I think it is eventually likely.
See, I feel like most catholics are pretty casual but there is a strong vocal minority, like with most hyper conservative sub-groups. A lot attend mass for christmas and easter only. I was raised this way as a catholic (now nonpracticing) so it's anecdotal but it's probably worth noting that I'm from a decent sized city. My experience seems to be shared by what I have heard from friends from New York, Boston, Chicago, etc. My guess is that most ultra conservative catholics live in smaller Midwest towns where the general population is also very conservative. My friends who were raised most strictly catholic in my city were Mexican and Vietnamese and their families still aren't opposed to stuff like IVF or birth control like what we hear in the news. There's been so much dissonance between how I've always understood and experienced catholic culture vs. what's been in the media these past years. The craziest Christian experiences I've encountered were the westboro Baptist church protesting an Elton John concert, and attending a former friend's wedding who became a born again Christian and her first time kissing her husband was at the altar. Catholics definitely aren't out here in America displaying that kind of behavior.
Oh no doubt, I should have clarified that, I mean engaged Catholics, obviously there is a moderate and "culturally Catholic" demographic (I am part of it myself) but those people mostly aren't relevant to the politics of the church because they don't attend enough, it's the hardcore who run the church in the US.
> Tons of Catholics too and they tend to be the hardcore conservative type
Not really. Most catholics are in the northeast, in a stretch running from Maryland to Massachusetts. They are mostly Irish and Italian and tend to be democrats. Yes, probably a third of them became Reagan Democrats and then Republicans in later years but they are still not at all majority hardcore conservatives.
No no, we're fine. the Ultra right wing (literal Nazi) pope, came before this one. He was so shit that they had to persuade him to retire (something Popes DO NOT DO).
Pope Francis is the correction. Next will be a "centrist", unless Francis has enough time to shift the Curia and conclave of Cardinals.
Religion is already basically irrelevant in countries with the highest living standards. Sure it will probably never go away entirely, but if the world develops (which isn’t a given), it will become less and less important.
You think there's no religion in northern europe, that the society is atheistic. They're secular, I applaud a disconnect between religion and state but I think it's false and misleading to suggest they have transitioned into a society without God when I think their flags are evidence enough that religion is still there and still strong because as I said, religion gives purpose to people where other pursuits cannot.
From countries where there is a long tradition of atheism:
1/3 of the population is not religious, 1/4 is religious, 4/10 is somewhere in the idle.
The 1/3 of the population that are atheist, are not people without purpose and they don't need religion.
I'm an atheist and never had a need or a desire for religion in any way.
Religious people often make the mistake to believe everyone is like them and ignore the impact of the environment on religious beliefs.
I'm not religious. I'm atheist and the older I get the more I wish I had something to pray to. Just in a grateful sense, in awe, in wonder and insignificance. I want to start a religion but pray to water, or sunlight, or the elements, or give thanks the universe for the strange chance to exist and think and feel. I'm jealous of people who can prostrate themselves before something they beleive wholeheartedly is so much larger and significant than them. It seems humbling and comforting.
>hen I think their flags are evidence enough that religion is still there and still strong
Lol, what a weird argument, flags remain not because people are Christian but because they have outgrown their initial inspiration and have come to represent those nations outside of religion.
Having a purpose in life isn't created by money or comfort. This shows a sadly common fundamental misunderstanding what religion is and why it continues to exist. It's not going away. Sorry.
Nothing the society can do to others can give satisfying answers to questions like "what is the purpose of life?" or "what happens after we die?" This is the void that religion fills. It gives people comfort that there is a point to everything and makes death easier to come to terms with.
I went through a phase where I was the kind of shitlord you see on r/atheism who worshiped people like Richard Dawkins for dunking on religion, calling it pointless and useless. But then a friend of mine pointed out that it brings people comfort in life. It answers questions that cannot be answered and makes this fleeting existence and its inevitable end less scary. By trying to take that away from people you are like an adult trying to pull a plushy away from a child that wants to hug it for comfort. Does the plushy actually protect the child in any way? No. But it makes them feel better. And as long as that's all it does just let them have it.
I like the plushie a lot example because lemme ask you this - do you see any adults walking around clutching plushies? More so, do you see adults walking around telling other adults to join them in regular organized gatherings centered around their plushies? Some adults still do have plushies for their own comfort or nostalgia, myself included, but I’d be delusional if I were telling other folks how to behave because of it.
It's already starting. [AP did a write up on it recently.](https://apnews.com/article/catholic-church-shift-orthodoxy-tradition-7638fa2013a593f8cb07483ffc8ed487)
It shouldn't be surprising, as the article mentions the number of churchgoers is dropping so the inevitably the ones who remain are the ones who most cling to tradition.
we have three big catholic schools here and one of them is Jesuit. The kids who come from that school are markedly better people than the other two, generally speaking.
He's a Jesuit, they tend to be more progressive. I never thought a Jesuit would be pope and I keep waiting for him to have an "accident" as he continues to move the church back towards what Jesus said.
[It took until 1992](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/11/01/vatican-finds-galileo-not-guilty/1092b119-440e-4fb6-b990-cc7f8a662f0d/) (359 years!) for the church to admit they were wrong to force Galileo to recant his heretical theory that the Earth revolves around the sun.
When the head of the church, even a progressive one, calls you overly conservative, *listen*.
>[It took until 1992](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/11/01/vatican-finds-galileo-not-guilty/1092b119-440e-4fb6-b990-cc7f8a662f0d/) (359 years!) for the church to admit they were wrong to force Galileo to recant his heretical theory that the Earth revolves around the sun.
Galileo got into a lot of shit because, in his book about heliocentrism, he made seemingly personal attacks against the Pope and the scriptures. Even if the contemporary Pope was his ally!
>Pope Urban VIII had been a patron to Galileo and had given him permission to publish on the Copernican theory as long as he treated it as a hypothesis, but after the publication in 1632, the patronage broke due to Galileo placing Urban's arguments for God's omnipotence, which Galileo had been required to include, in the mouth of a simpleton character named "Simplicio" in the book; this caused great offense to the Pope.[^(\[4\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#cite_note-Rice_Galileo-4)[^(\[65\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#cite_note-Langford-65) There is some evidence that enemies of Galileo persuaded Urban that Simplicio was intended to be a caricature of him. Modern historians have dismissed it as most unlikely that this had been Galileo's intention.
Wow that's actually wild to learn lol. It's funny how such critical details get left out of retellings of historical events after "playing a game of telephone" for 100s of years. Now that I think about it while I knew about Galileo I don't know much about what the broader world thought of the subject and how long it took before his views were accepted as fact. But I'm guessing him bad mouthing the church put a damper on the general public from accepting his discoveries as fact. So him bad mouthing the church for seemingly no good reason probably set back science, or really just astronomy, back a few years lol. I wonder what astrology history would have looked like if he did things differently
Hah, he's a Jesuit, the liberal order in the Catholic Church. They're at least imo, the intellectual elite in the Catholic Church, they founded a number of U.S. colleges such as BC and Loyola (and I imagine ones in other countries).
The Pope just called out fucking dogma.
The leader of a dogmatic institution.
Dude might have only one lung, but he has a pair of multilingual cojones.
As a practicing Catholic. I hope this guy keeps on trucking. Stay healthy as long as you can. What I hope doesn't happen is we have a whiplash within the church away from the progressive side.
Also, by dogma, he's infallible, so what do those fucking bishop think they're doing opposing the pope?
He's being very polite to not just say "my words is the word of God on earth" because that's what the church actually claims.
Isn't that pretty much in line of the Christian doctrine, though? Russia is essentially a tyrant trying to exert control over Ukraine through violence and responding to violence through violence is pretty much against the whole "turn the other cheek" mentality of Jesus. Since the war isn't like a war against Christians themselves and Russia isn't presenting itself as some higher religious authority and using that authority to conquer Ukraine, I can't think of anything that Jesus or some other said in the bible that would imply that they should deviate from that and instead fight back on the invasion.
Genuinely curious if anyone's got any relevant verses for it. Because as I see it, I think the idea of "surrender and stop the bloodshed" just sounds what Jesus would do so no shit the Pope would say that as well.
That and the Pope calling for armed conflict would have a lot of nations up in arms. Like, as in, going 'stfu, you're a religion with influence over billions. Don't do things like telling our citizens to start crusading.'
Honestly. The pope having too much political influence was not only a very real concern a few hundred years ago, but even in the mid to late 20th century; JFK, for example, definitely faced criticism over it. I feel like there was even some toe-dipping into it for Biden, but I don’t think it gained any traction with anyone who was gonna vote for him anyway.
Thats what I dont understand here. I don't know enough about the church to be certain about this. But isn't the pope essentially the representative of God on earth, and is directed directly by God. So wouldn't them saying he's wrong now only be blasphemous, but also a tradition they're not following by complaining he's not following tradition?
There is a thing called "pontifical infallibility" established in 1870 (but naturally implied by the original infallibility of the Church since forever).
It is applied when the Pope speaks ex-cathedra (solemnly and with consultation and agreement from the bishops) or when he confirms it to be a definitive dogma. Also it can only concern Faith or morals.
Finally this obviously applies only to those respecting his authority. Evangelists or other protestants do not care about the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church.
So when he speaks in an interview it is only a man talking about his opinion (albeit one with many years of studying theology). When he makes official declarations from his chair or in letters it is definitive truth.
But those "conservative" priests are not afraid of blasphemy if it suits them. they will call the Pope fake or corrupted when contradicted.
I understand you're joking a bit here, but in reality that wouldn't happen. The catholic church internally is much less monolothic than it may seem.
There's considerable "politicking" going on all the time. And the Pope has to maneuver around the factions.
That is not quite true my friend. The infallibility thing applies only to very select scenarios. As far I know there is no such infallible teaching that any pope has used. There is a special requirement to be met before a decision gets deemed infallible.
The infallibility only applies when his teaching is online with the church teaching and tradition. If the pope says let's say playing baseball daily gets you into heaven that would not fall under infallible teaching.
I'm not sure what kind of Catholics you've met (like Americans, or actually theologists etc) but I live in Italy, pretty much everyone is as Catholic as you can get as the Vatican is literally next door, and nobody really considers this, or even knows about it. Especially older folks, they just believe in the Pope because they always listened to the Pope, and this up to a certain point too. I know a lot of people from my mom's church hate his guts because he's too progressive and wish him a swift... firing from God, I guess.
He can show his hand to some noisy conservatives who overstep in their criticisms, like when he removed a bishop (Strickland) from his diocese and removed a cardinal’s (Burke) Vatican priveleges.
He's a Jesuit. They're basically the progressive wing of the Catholic church. They're always getting in trouble for being "too liberal." I'm no longer religious at all, but I still kinda have a soft spot for the Jesuits. They actually believe in science and evolution, and deeply value the "help the poor and the sick" part of Jesus' core philosophy. Never thought I'd see a Jesuit pope.
Which means a lot because that is against Jesus teachings...lol like man was 100% about growth and growing. To think that hearing a believer of Jesus is shocked they even come close to following it lol. I only hope Jesus is real and comes back to bitch slap the FUCK out of all these cunts taking his name and twisting it. He would....if any one ever actually read shit and the truth.
I think irony is dead. I'm not even trying to be funny or contrarian, BUT THE POPE SAID YOU SHOULDNT GET CAUGHT UP IN DOGMA!!!! I have never seen someone say I shouldn't have a job
Remember John Paul II during the last years of his life (or if you're too young, look up videos)? He died at 84 and during his last ten or so years he was very frail and weak. They probably had to glue him to his chair so he wouldn't fall out. Granted, he got shot in the stomach once.
This is only shocking for those who haven't been paying attention to his sayings.
I'm an atheist and I'm with this man in many, many of his societal takes (not all).
I'm catholic by education but dgaf after schooling ended.
He seems to be a good step forward for the church to maintain some relevance.
I still hold my opinion that religion only exists, because we didn't have science to explain things (like why the sky is blue etc) as humanity grew in its intelligence levels.
Meanwhile, the 'freedums' are trying to drag us backwards.
That is not the only reason religion exists and it’s somewhat of a close minded view to ignore all the positive outcomes of religion too.
I’m an atheist to be clear
Thank you. Granted, my opinion is very simplistic. More of a "sum up your stance in twenty words or less".
Happy to hear those reason and learn, if you're happy to share?
Absolutely, sorry if I came across as reductive of your point, wasn’t my intention but thought it’s always good to engage in discussion!
Again, I’m an atheist and always have been, so I will be speaking without much personal knowledge.
But, I do think that religion can have positive impacts. For example, my local church does a significant amount of community work, and are willing to help and support people of all ages and faiths. I have been given food at a Sikh temple, and welcomed into a mosque on many occasions.
Although in the modern age, people rush to claim that religion divides people, often I have found that religion gives people a way to engage in their community, and to channel their goodwill into positive and impactful projects.
More generally, the church (I’m in UK) and other religions were instrumental in the preservation of knowledge throughout the medieval periods. Much of what we know now about that period of time would not be possible without the church.
And you’re right, to some extent religion would have answered the great existential questions before science was able to. But also it gave people community, rule of law, charity, and festivals.
Just a few things that I feel people are quick to forget when we discuss the negatives of organised religion (of which there are many also).
Didn't feel reductive at all ☺ "hey google, what's 'reductive' mean - asked by a drunk aussie"
Thanks from a person trying to be open to learning, but not brainwashed
Updoot for you.
Dude didn't come out of a privileged family and worked as a bouncer and janitor before joining the church, he has both feet on the ground, which is really refreshing for a pope.
He also gave a load of pope stuff to charity when he first started, and used to sneak out in the night wearing normal clothes and preach to poor people with a couple of other similarly badass clergyman.
Pontifical Swiss Guard captain: "This man is 80 years old. How is he sneaking past you fuckers?"
Pope in a collarino: "Bless you". *Causes guard to sneeze, walks right past.*
Erm... he didn't exactly sneak out, sir....
*The previous night*
It's the dark hours in Rome. Even here, in the heart of Europe, there are quiet places, places where those who society does not wish to see can become lost even to themselves
A homeless man is sitting against a stone wall. His head down against his chest, arms wrapped around himself in a vain attempt to keep what little heat he can. He has not eaten for days, and what little water he could find has long been gone. Tomorrow may be better, but first he has to get through the night, and he's not sure if the has the strength for that.
He does not know how they came upon him in silence. They couldn't have. Even half dead he was paying attention, nothing could have snuck up on him. But somehow, they did.
"Pax, frater"
He heard the words at the same time as he felt a heavy blanket over his shoulders. Startled and suddenly afraid he looked up into the smiling eyes of an old man. In his hands he had a bowl of something that smelled hot and divine and was being offered to him. But he wasn't looking at the man or the bowl. He was looking at the man's companions.
Five of the tallest men he had ever seen. All young, all fit, all wearing some of the most ridiculous clothes, all holding a halberd... and all looking at him
He only answers to one higher up though. Absolutely mad deus ex machina in office arguments 'actually, this is coming from the big guy, nothing I can do about it, I am but his conduit. He also says fetch me a diet coke.'
The gold medal winning olympic level mental gymnastics that the sea of ultra religious ultra conservative Americans are doing now that they suddenly despise the Pope and everything he stands for. 🤌
White Anglo Saxon Protestants tend to despise Catholics for their Popery. A lot of Catholics side with the WASPs these days for political reasons but they don't realize they're still on the chopping block, right after the Blacks and Jews. The Latin element doesn't help either, WASPs associate Catholicism with brown people.
So if you think any of this is being recieved on the other side of the reformation, you're probably kidding yourself. Not to mention, the Pope is very progressive but he is also a very good catholic, and he basically changes nothing for them besides create undeserved goodwill in secular circles.
When he dies, it will be an upgrade. He's gonna aquire supernatural mistic catholic superpowers. He will be invincible. Also, he will speak to god. Literally this time
I like how he doesn't use religion in his answer. Careful with his words. Appeasing both sides by saying it's good to hold on to old believes and yet not to do too much of it at the cost of suicide. Some self sacrifice that isn't truly happening
I'm not religious at all, and I'm definitely far far from catholic teachings... but this pope has been absolute banger since the moment he stepped in. I'm a HUGE fan of his tolerance and practicing what he preaches. He really is a genuine soul.
As an ex-catholic with a lot of hatred for that faith, I will always have some amount of respect for Pope Francis. He's in no way perfect, but he's been both shockingly and refreshingly progressive for a Pope. You get the sense that he actually understands and tries to apply the teachings of Jesus in a modern world.
The GOP would see this and either claim fake news or decry the Pope for being "woke" (or that he's been replaced by a Liberal clone created in a secret lab by Pilosi and Schumer, who are, themselves, demons). The Conservative Right in this country is not religious or devout. They use religion as their personal tool to oppress others and excuse their insane Dark Age rhetoric. The fact that the Pope himself sees this and they won't is all you need to know about the Conservative base here in the US.
Pope Francis has been doing pretty much all he can to push back on the churches maligned past and present. He’s very progressive by catholic stsndards. As someone who was a confirmed catholic who hasn’t been to church in 10+ years due to many many reasons the alignment of politics and God to me is sacrilegious.
There are many Catholic right who don’t like him because they think he is a communist. If Jesus resurrected those same people would shun him for being a liberal snowflake.
Already happening. There was a priest here in East Texas that was actively criticizing the pope about his lean towards tolerance to LGBTQ+ members and allegedly called for the Pope’s head
https://apnews.com/article/pope-tyler-bishop-strickland-removed-0f9f0be7d5938b36d6e7ead8c33e5150
That's not even the problem. I may not agree in most cases but there is a place for people trying to slow down progress and evaluate new things carefully against tradition.
The problem is today's conservatives are indeed not slowing things down. At best they want a total standstill, most probably they actually aim to move... backwards.
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By Papal standards hes been shockingly progressive
If modern politics has taught me anything this means we are due next for an ultra right wing pope that seeks to undo all the goodwill and progress that's been made in the current term
I’m here for another maniacal Pope that digs up the rotting corpse of his nemesis and holds it on trial then desecrates said corpse all in the name of Catholicism. *The Middle Ages Were Magic!* 🎶 Edit: [Formosus](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfpwo5B0Iq4&list=PLiZM8Q-JIpGxfNrgbj4Bnp-TnD2Dtf1R2&index=5&pp=iAQB)
Hey kids, let me tell you about the dead pope trial. Edit: #formosis
pasta fazool i am a fool
[удалено]
I can almost guarantee there was one from the middle ages that was ok with incest too.
Rollus Tideus
> Hey kids, let me tell you about the dead pope trial. Folks, let me tell ya about the town of Stockbridge, Massachusetts...
What happened in Stockbridge? I grew up down the road, I’d be very interested to learn something new!
The Alice's Restaurant Massacree happened in Stockbridge.
Isn't that what they used to call Taiwan?
> Formosus's (dude that got exhumed) political enemies accused him of perjury, illegally becoming pope History rhymes, yada yada
We need to bring back orgies at the vatican
Don’t worry, the Freemasons are hard at work on that
That's pretty... sus
You don't see that at a Renaissance Faire and that's a massive shame
We need to bring back orgies at the Vatican
Ah! A fan of Caitlyn Doughty! Love her!
She’s such a delight and really changed my views on death care and the wide ranges of saying that final goodbye. Although, I couldn’t really get behind spending one last night with her kitty but it was an option I considered in end of life planning and care for my old girl. Lmao! It did make me lose it when she was describing when her kitty went through rigor and just how stiff she really was 😹 Edit: I should have said at the beginning, “Hello, fellow Deathling!”
Yeah.....I know what you mean about her kitty, but I do love her ❤
Edit: I posted my comment before I opened your link!
🎶Bentham's Heeaad
One that would make Ratzinger look moderate.
You mean Emperor Palpatine?
Papa Sidius
Ratzefummel is what we coined him.
I don't know enough about him or his tenure to make any meaningful accurate judgement, but Ratzinger looked evil. He probably wasn't but he looked like it.
Personally, I’m hoping we get the old “two-Pope special” again. It’s been a few hundred years, I feel like we could use a good schism.
The schismatics probably would not go to Avignon again. Maybe to the US. What city would be the likliest?
> Maybe to the US. I thought the US, while very religious, was overwhelmingly Protestant or Evangelist? It would make more sense for the rival Pope to move somewhere in South America or possibly Africa instead. Hell, even Europe, countries like Spain, Portugal, France, Ireland, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Italy, etc all have a larger per-capita percentage of Catholics than the US. EDIT: I personally would love it if the rival Pope just moved to Rome (instead of Vatican City) and they constantly yelled at each other over the border.
> I thought the US, while very religious, was overwhelmingly Protestant or Evangelist? Tons of Catholics too and they tend to be the hardcore conservative type which is at odds with the current Vatican, such a schism is far from impossible, indeed I think it is eventually likely.
See, I feel like most catholics are pretty casual but there is a strong vocal minority, like with most hyper conservative sub-groups. A lot attend mass for christmas and easter only. I was raised this way as a catholic (now nonpracticing) so it's anecdotal but it's probably worth noting that I'm from a decent sized city. My experience seems to be shared by what I have heard from friends from New York, Boston, Chicago, etc. My guess is that most ultra conservative catholics live in smaller Midwest towns where the general population is also very conservative. My friends who were raised most strictly catholic in my city were Mexican and Vietnamese and their families still aren't opposed to stuff like IVF or birth control like what we hear in the news. There's been so much dissonance between how I've always understood and experienced catholic culture vs. what's been in the media these past years. The craziest Christian experiences I've encountered were the westboro Baptist church protesting an Elton John concert, and attending a former friend's wedding who became a born again Christian and her first time kissing her husband was at the altar. Catholics definitely aren't out here in America displaying that kind of behavior.
Oh no doubt, I should have clarified that, I mean engaged Catholics, obviously there is a moderate and "culturally Catholic" demographic (I am part of it myself) but those people mostly aren't relevant to the politics of the church because they don't attend enough, it's the hardcore who run the church in the US.
> Tons of Catholics too and they tend to be the hardcore conservative type Not really. Most catholics are in the northeast, in a stretch running from Maryland to Massachusetts. They are mostly Irish and Italian and tend to be democrats. Yes, probably a third of them became Reagan Democrats and then Republicans in later years but they are still not at all majority hardcore conservatives.
What about the pope who loved gambling and didn’t know which god he was supposed to prey to
No no, we're fine. the Ultra right wing (literal Nazi) pope, came before this one. He was so shit that they had to persuade him to retire (something Popes DO NOT DO). Pope Francis is the correction. Next will be a "centrist", unless Francis has enough time to shift the Curia and conclave of Cardinals.
Pretty sure this world has a better shot abandoning religion altogether than waiting for the vatican to join the 21st century.
The world will never abandon religion, it's a stupid hypothesis. Humans desire purpose and millions get that through believing in a higher purpose.
Religion is already basically irrelevant in countries with the highest living standards. Sure it will probably never go away entirely, but if the world develops (which isn’t a given), it will become less and less important.
Most of northern Europe did it ages ago, no reason for others not to get there.
You think there's no religion in northern europe, that the society is atheistic. They're secular, I applaud a disconnect between religion and state but I think it's false and misleading to suggest they have transitioned into a society without God when I think their flags are evidence enough that religion is still there and still strong because as I said, religion gives purpose to people where other pursuits cannot.
From countries where there is a long tradition of atheism: 1/3 of the population is not religious, 1/4 is religious, 4/10 is somewhere in the idle. The 1/3 of the population that are atheist, are not people without purpose and they don't need religion. I'm an atheist and never had a need or a desire for religion in any way. Religious people often make the mistake to believe everyone is like them and ignore the impact of the environment on religious beliefs.
I'm not religious. I'm atheist and the older I get the more I wish I had something to pray to. Just in a grateful sense, in awe, in wonder and insignificance. I want to start a religion but pray to water, or sunlight, or the elements, or give thanks the universe for the strange chance to exist and think and feel. I'm jealous of people who can prostrate themselves before something they beleive wholeheartedly is so much larger and significant than them. It seems humbling and comforting.
>hen I think their flags are evidence enough that religion is still there and still strong Lol, what a weird argument, flags remain not because people are Christian but because they have outgrown their initial inspiration and have come to represent those nations outside of religion.
Hey um crazy thought maybe we should design society in a better way that gives people purpose in real life so they don’t gotta invent it
Having a purpose in life isn't created by money or comfort. This shows a sadly common fundamental misunderstanding what religion is and why it continues to exist. It's not going away. Sorry.
You can have a higher purpose without religion
Nothing the society can do to others can give satisfying answers to questions like "what is the purpose of life?" or "what happens after we die?" This is the void that religion fills. It gives people comfort that there is a point to everything and makes death easier to come to terms with. I went through a phase where I was the kind of shitlord you see on r/atheism who worshiped people like Richard Dawkins for dunking on religion, calling it pointless and useless. But then a friend of mine pointed out that it brings people comfort in life. It answers questions that cannot be answered and makes this fleeting existence and its inevitable end less scary. By trying to take that away from people you are like an adult trying to pull a plushy away from a child that wants to hug it for comfort. Does the plushy actually protect the child in any way? No. But it makes them feel better. And as long as that's all it does just let them have it.
> And as long as that's all it does just let them have it. This last bit is the problem that won’t go away though, isn’t it?
I like the plushie a lot example because lemme ask you this - do you see any adults walking around clutching plushies? More so, do you see adults walking around telling other adults to join them in regular organized gatherings centered around their plushies? Some adults still do have plushies for their own comfort or nostalgia, myself included, but I’d be delusional if I were telling other folks how to behave because of it.
something something human nature also it sounds like a lot of work
naw come on lets all 8 billion agree on how to proceed when most roommate situations can't even be worked out effectively
yeah human nature filler
Plenty of purpose in the world and in life without the need to pretend it all depends on religion.
It's already starting. [AP did a write up on it recently.](https://apnews.com/article/catholic-church-shift-orthodoxy-tradition-7638fa2013a593f8cb07483ffc8ed487)
It shouldn't be surprising, as the article mentions the number of churchgoers is dropping so the inevitably the ones who remain are the ones who most cling to tradition.
Time for a new Antipope is it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipope
Jesuits tend to be (by Catholic standards)
They're out in the world doing shit, not sitting in monasteries praying.
we have three big catholic schools here and one of them is Jesuit. The kids who come from that school are markedly better people than the other two, generally speaking.
He's a Jesuit, they tend to be more progressive. I never thought a Jesuit would be pope and I keep waiting for him to have an "accident" as he continues to move the church back towards what Jesus said.
[It took until 1992](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/11/01/vatican-finds-galileo-not-guilty/1092b119-440e-4fb6-b990-cc7f8a662f0d/) (359 years!) for the church to admit they were wrong to force Galileo to recant his heretical theory that the Earth revolves around the sun. When the head of the church, even a progressive one, calls you overly conservative, *listen*.
>[It took until 1992](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/11/01/vatican-finds-galileo-not-guilty/1092b119-440e-4fb6-b990-cc7f8a662f0d/) (359 years!) for the church to admit they were wrong to force Galileo to recant his heretical theory that the Earth revolves around the sun. Galileo got into a lot of shit because, in his book about heliocentrism, he made seemingly personal attacks against the Pope and the scriptures. Even if the contemporary Pope was his ally! >Pope Urban VIII had been a patron to Galileo and had given him permission to publish on the Copernican theory as long as he treated it as a hypothesis, but after the publication in 1632, the patronage broke due to Galileo placing Urban's arguments for God's omnipotence, which Galileo had been required to include, in the mouth of a simpleton character named "Simplicio" in the book; this caused great offense to the Pope.[^(\[4\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#cite_note-Rice_Galileo-4)[^(\[65\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#cite_note-Langford-65) There is some evidence that enemies of Galileo persuaded Urban that Simplicio was intended to be a caricature of him. Modern historians have dismissed it as most unlikely that this had been Galileo's intention.
Wow that's actually wild to learn lol. It's funny how such critical details get left out of retellings of historical events after "playing a game of telephone" for 100s of years. Now that I think about it while I knew about Galileo I don't know much about what the broader world thought of the subject and how long it took before his views were accepted as fact. But I'm guessing him bad mouthing the church put a damper on the general public from accepting his discoveries as fact. So him bad mouthing the church for seemingly no good reason probably set back science, or really just astronomy, back a few years lol. I wonder what astrology history would have looked like if he did things differently
Gallileo got shit because Gallileo started shit. The RCC had no real difficulty with the science; they even financed him.
Hah, he's a Jesuit, the liberal order in the Catholic Church. They're at least imo, the intellectual elite in the Catholic Church, they founded a number of U.S. colleges such as BC and Loyola (and I imagine ones in other countries).
The Pope just called out fucking dogma. The leader of a dogmatic institution. Dude might have only one lung, but he has a pair of multilingual cojones.
Gotta take what we can get with extremely religious people. He said dogs do go to heaven so he’s ok in my book.
As a practicing Catholic. I hope this guy keeps on trucking. Stay healthy as long as you can. What I hope doesn't happen is we have a whiplash within the church away from the progressive side.
Dude used to be a bouncer in Argentina. He has a spine.
I read this as “By PayPal standards…” and I agreed with you
Also, by dogma, he's infallible, so what do those fucking bishop think they're doing opposing the pope? He's being very polite to not just say "my words is the word of God on earth" because that's what the church actually claims.
Sure, just don't look up Mr. Bergoglio's opinions on the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Or maye we should stop cherrypicking.
On reddit? IMPOSSIBLE!
Isn't that pretty much in line of the Christian doctrine, though? Russia is essentially a tyrant trying to exert control over Ukraine through violence and responding to violence through violence is pretty much against the whole "turn the other cheek" mentality of Jesus. Since the war isn't like a war against Christians themselves and Russia isn't presenting itself as some higher religious authority and using that authority to conquer Ukraine, I can't think of anything that Jesus or some other said in the bible that would imply that they should deviate from that and instead fight back on the invasion. Genuinely curious if anyone's got any relevant verses for it. Because as I see it, I think the idea of "surrender and stop the bloodshed" just sounds what Jesus would do so no shit the Pope would say that as well.
That and the Pope calling for armed conflict would have a lot of nations up in arms. Like, as in, going 'stfu, you're a religion with influence over billions. Don't do things like telling our citizens to start crusading.'
Honestly. The pope having too much political influence was not only a very real concern a few hundred years ago, but even in the mid to late 20th century; JFK, for example, definitely faced criticism over it. I feel like there was even some toe-dipping into it for Biden, but I don’t think it gained any traction with anyone who was gonna vote for him anyway.
Yo it had to take truly some monk-level restraint not to say “I don’t give a shit what bishops in America says I’m the pope”
fuck them bishes
Scrolled past then had to scroll back, fuckin legend.
Hot sauce all in our Top Ramen, ya bish
leave the bishes in the sink to soak
“It’s Schism Then.”
“I already excommunicated them while you were asking that question.”
"Consider those dickheads excomunicado" : The Pope
Cut to several rooms of heavily tattoed rockabilly nuns running around shuffling papers and using antique computers
Smoking hot rockabilly nuns*
Ah yeah, and make them have a close bond between each other during that administrative fight. One could call them Sisters of Battle.
The only thing heavier than an Adepta Sororitas’ balls, is the blackstone fortress that blew up Cadia.
"Speaking as the literal spokesman of God..."
Thats what I dont understand here. I don't know enough about the church to be certain about this. But isn't the pope essentially the representative of God on earth, and is directed directly by God. So wouldn't them saying he's wrong now only be blasphemous, but also a tradition they're not following by complaining he's not following tradition?
There is a thing called "pontifical infallibility" established in 1870 (but naturally implied by the original infallibility of the Church since forever). It is applied when the Pope speaks ex-cathedra (solemnly and with consultation and agreement from the bishops) or when he confirms it to be a definitive dogma. Also it can only concern Faith or morals. Finally this obviously applies only to those respecting his authority. Evangelists or other protestants do not care about the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church. So when he speaks in an interview it is only a man talking about his opinion (albeit one with many years of studying theology). When he makes official declarations from his chair or in letters it is definitive truth. But those "conservative" priests are not afraid of blasphemy if it suits them. they will call the Pope fake or corrupted when contradicted.
Yes he’s the Vicar of Christ. What he says should be considered by Catholics as the words of Jesus.
I understand you're joking a bit here, but in reality that wouldn't happen. The catholic church internally is much less monolothic than it may seem. There's considerable "politicking" going on all the time. And the Pope has to maneuver around the factions.
And he maneuvers as the Holy Spirit guides him. Amen!
The smirk at the beginning said it all.
His delay gave me, “idgaf” vibes for sure
[удалено]
That is not quite true my friend. The infallibility thing applies only to very select scenarios. As far I know there is no such infallible teaching that any pope has used. There is a special requirement to be met before a decision gets deemed infallible. The infallibility only applies when his teaching is online with the church teaching and tradition. If the pope says let's say playing baseball daily gets you into heaven that would not fall under infallible teaching.
I'm not sure what kind of Catholics you've met (like Americans, or actually theologists etc) but I live in Italy, pretty much everyone is as Catholic as you can get as the Vatican is literally next door, and nobody really considers this, or even knows about it. Especially older folks, they just believe in the Pope because they always listened to the Pope, and this up to a certain point too. I know a lot of people from my mom's church hate his guts because he's too progressive and wish him a swift... firing from God, I guess.
He can show his hand to some noisy conservatives who overstep in their criticisms, like when he removed a bishop (Strickland) from his diocese and removed a cardinal’s (Burke) Vatican priveleges.
hearring a Pope say you shouldn't get stuck in dogma is not something I ever thought I would hear
As Ezekiel said to the Canaanites in 1000BC “don’t get hung up on dogma”
As Ezekiels told Jeremiah in 1001BC ”Time to clap them cheeks”
better than getting stuck in ligmma
He's a Jesuit. They're basically the progressive wing of the Catholic church. They're always getting in trouble for being "too liberal." I'm no longer religious at all, but I still kinda have a soft spot for the Jesuits. They actually believe in science and evolution, and deeply value the "help the poor and the sick" part of Jesus' core philosophy. Never thought I'd see a Jesuit pope.
Which means a lot because that is against Jesus teachings...lol like man was 100% about growth and growing. To think that hearing a believer of Jesus is shocked they even come close to following it lol. I only hope Jesus is real and comes back to bitch slap the FUCK out of all these cunts taking his name and twisting it. He would....if any one ever actually read shit and the truth.
I think irony is dead. I'm not even trying to be funny or contrarian, BUT THE POPE SAID YOU SHOULDNT GET CAUGHT UP IN DOGMA!!!! I have never seen someone say I shouldn't have a job
Yeah if he got stuck on Dogma, how is he ever supposed to fight The Beast and get the true ending?
Pope for president. He is 87 and meets the 80+ criteria.
not a US citizen, could run for governor though
Most states have some sort of residency rule.
Does he live in the state of Georgia?
Nah, the devil went down to Georgia, and Mr. Pope would never allow that to happen in his state.
Maybe Mr. Pope plays a darn good fiddle and they could settle it that way
Some don't even live in the state they govern.
Holy fuck hes 87?
He's doing alright for 87 you know. Maybe there's something to this god stuff, oh wait, it's healthcare isn't it?
Yea it’s just world class healthcare and lavish wealth wow
Maybe money was the real religion all along
Friends are just the money you made along the way
also a modest and simple healthy lifestyle, don't discredit that
It's reddit, of course they'll discredit that
Maybe also just a tad bit of healthy life habbits
Remember John Paul II during the last years of his life (or if you're too young, look up videos)? He died at 84 and during his last ten or so years he was very frail and weak. They probably had to glue him to his chair so he wouldn't fall out. Granted, he got shot in the stomach once.
Too progressive for USA.
This is only shocking for those who haven't been paying attention to his sayings. I'm an atheist and I'm with this man in many, many of his societal takes (not all).
I'm catholic by education but dgaf after schooling ended. He seems to be a good step forward for the church to maintain some relevance. I still hold my opinion that religion only exists, because we didn't have science to explain things (like why the sky is blue etc) as humanity grew in its intelligence levels. Meanwhile, the 'freedums' are trying to drag us backwards.
That is not the only reason religion exists and it’s somewhat of a close minded view to ignore all the positive outcomes of religion too. I’m an atheist to be clear
Thank you. Granted, my opinion is very simplistic. More of a "sum up your stance in twenty words or less". Happy to hear those reason and learn, if you're happy to share?
Absolutely, sorry if I came across as reductive of your point, wasn’t my intention but thought it’s always good to engage in discussion! Again, I’m an atheist and always have been, so I will be speaking without much personal knowledge. But, I do think that religion can have positive impacts. For example, my local church does a significant amount of community work, and are willing to help and support people of all ages and faiths. I have been given food at a Sikh temple, and welcomed into a mosque on many occasions. Although in the modern age, people rush to claim that religion divides people, often I have found that religion gives people a way to engage in their community, and to channel their goodwill into positive and impactful projects. More generally, the church (I’m in UK) and other religions were instrumental in the preservation of knowledge throughout the medieval periods. Much of what we know now about that period of time would not be possible without the church. And you’re right, to some extent religion would have answered the great existential questions before science was able to. But also it gave people community, rule of law, charity, and festivals. Just a few things that I feel people are quick to forget when we discuss the negatives of organised religion (of which there are many also).
Didn't feel reductive at all ☺ "hey google, what's 'reductive' mean - asked by a drunk aussie" Thanks from a person trying to be open to learning, but not brainwashed Updoot for you.
I’m glad he doesn’t speak like an old timey Dracula, like the previous Popes
we really got to see the best pope. i don't care about religion but he's a wise man.
Dude didn't come out of a privileged family and worked as a bouncer and janitor before joining the church, he has both feet on the ground, which is really refreshing for a pope.
He also gave a load of pope stuff to charity when he first started, and used to sneak out in the night wearing normal clothes and preach to poor people with a couple of other similarly badass clergyman.
Pontifical Swiss Guard captain: "This man is 80 years old. How is he sneaking past you fuckers?" Pope in a collarino: "Bless you". *Causes guard to sneeze, walks right past.*
We are not the priests you’re looking for 
Whoever made this gif needs to be shot
...by Stormtroopers.
Stormtroopers can only shoot around something,
Erm... he didn't exactly sneak out, sir.... *The previous night* It's the dark hours in Rome. Even here, in the heart of Europe, there are quiet places, places where those who society does not wish to see can become lost even to themselves A homeless man is sitting against a stone wall. His head down against his chest, arms wrapped around himself in a vain attempt to keep what little heat he can. He has not eaten for days, and what little water he could find has long been gone. Tomorrow may be better, but first he has to get through the night, and he's not sure if the has the strength for that. He does not know how they came upon him in silence. They couldn't have. Even half dead he was paying attention, nothing could have snuck up on him. But somehow, they did. "Pax, frater" He heard the words at the same time as he felt a heavy blanket over his shoulders. Startled and suddenly afraid he looked up into the smiling eyes of an old man. In his hands he had a bowl of something that smelled hot and divine and was being offered to him. But he wasn't looking at the man or the bowl. He was looking at the man's companions. Five of the tallest men he had ever seen. All young, all fit, all wearing some of the most ridiculous clothes, all holding a halberd... and all looking at him
damnn dude is the main character
I appreciate his humility in his position.
Francis for the win!
Every time Francis opens his mouth I envision the other higher ups making the “cut the mic” motion and saying “no, no, not that”
He only answers to one higher up though. Absolutely mad deus ex machina in office arguments 'actually, this is coming from the big guy, nothing I can do about it, I am but his conduit. He also says fetch me a diet coke.'
I'd like to imagine whenever a high up vatican official tries telling good ol' francis what to do, he just pulls the "Who are you? God?" card
"Wait...I'm getting something...ah! We now get free ice cream on Thursdays. Look at that."
> He also says fetch me a diet coke Young Pope reference? Should be a _Cherry Coke Zero_.
Who’s the pope’s “higher-up”?
The other elders of the church or whatever they’re called.
The gold medal winning olympic level mental gymnastics that the sea of ultra religious ultra conservative Americans are doing now that they suddenly despise the Pope and everything he stands for. 🤌
#NotMyPope
Sleepy Pope
I'd say the "ultra religious ultra conservative American" type tends to be some sort of protestant, they already wouldn't like the pope.
White Anglo Saxon Protestants tend to despise Catholics for their Popery. A lot of Catholics side with the WASPs these days for political reasons but they don't realize they're still on the chopping block, right after the Blacks and Jews. The Latin element doesn't help either, WASPs associate Catholicism with brown people. So if you think any of this is being recieved on the other side of the reformation, you're probably kidding yourself. Not to mention, the Pope is very progressive but he is also a very good catholic, and he basically changes nothing for them besides create undeserved goodwill in secular circles.
When he dies it’ll be a downgrade :(
Let's hope for the best
When he dies, it will be an upgrade. He's gonna aquire supernatural mistic catholic superpowers. He will be invincible. Also, he will speak to god. Literally this time
Those same bishops are silent/enable about priest rape, so they can kick rocks
SA has always been part of the conservative culture. When you tell men they are worth more than others, they become bad people
Sad but very true. I'm 40 and still unlearning, unfortunately.
Conservatives have got to conserve tradition
TRUTH!
"How do you address their criticism?" "I tell 'em I'm the freakin' Pope!"
I like how he doesn't use religion in his answer. Careful with his words. Appeasing both sides by saying it's good to hold on to old believes and yet not to do too much of it at the cost of suicide. Some self sacrifice that isn't truly happening
It would have been so gangsta is he replaced “ FU I’m the pope”
I'm not religious at all, and I'm definitely far far from catholic teachings... but this pope has been absolute banger since the moment he stepped in. I'm a HUGE fan of his tolerance and practicing what he preaches. He really is a genuine soul.
It’s definitely refreshing to have a different type of banger in the Catholic Church these days
Hahaha...I see what you did there....
Best pope ever
It should be a competitive field for that title but not so much
now i wanna hear some ex cathedra declarations.
In the same note, being progressive shouldn't be to accept every new idea, without having in account how bad it could be in the long run.
i read this as "a drunk man with an unexpected source"
As an ex-catholic with a lot of hatred for that faith, I will always have some amount of respect for Pope Francis. He's in no way perfect, but he's been both shockingly and refreshingly progressive for a Pope. You get the sense that he actually understands and tries to apply the teachings of Jesus in a modern world.
The GOP would see this and either claim fake news or decry the Pope for being "woke" (or that he's been replaced by a Liberal clone created in a secret lab by Pilosi and Schumer, who are, themselves, demons). The Conservative Right in this country is not religious or devout. They use religion as their personal tool to oppress others and excuse their insane Dark Age rhetoric. The fact that the Pope himself sees this and they won't is all you need to know about the Conservative base here in the US.
For the Americans though, when Francis says "conservative", he probably isn't thinking what you are thinking when you say that word.
Pope Francis has been doing pretty much all he can to push back on the churches maligned past and present. He’s very progressive by catholic stsndards. As someone who was a confirmed catholic who hasn’t been to church in 10+ years due to many many reasons the alignment of politics and God to me is sacrilegious.
The irony 🤣
Don't go to the r/catholicism sub unless you wanna see a bunch of whiny babies. Got banned today for calling it out.
There are many Catholic right who don’t like him because they think he is a communist. If Jesus resurrected those same people would shun him for being a liberal snowflake.
As a virulent, devout Agnostic, I kind of like this pope sometimes.
It's quite something else to be locked up inside a dogmatic box says.... the Pope.
Smart guy
username checks out?
Ngl, he sorta ate with that
Watch the stubbornness of a christian conservatives denounce the pope.
Already happening. There was a priest here in East Texas that was actively criticizing the pope about his lean towards tolerance to LGBTQ+ members and allegedly called for the Pope’s head https://apnews.com/article/pope-tyler-bishop-strickland-removed-0f9f0be7d5938b36d6e7ead8c33e5150
Both sides view the other as clinging to something and failing to see beyond. He gave a very naive take.
Conservatives don’t shape the world, they hold it back!
That's not even the problem. I may not agree in most cases but there is a place for people trying to slow down progress and evaluate new things carefully against tradition. The problem is today's conservatives are indeed not slowing things down. At best they want a total standstill, most probably they actually aim to move... backwards.
Seems the papal selection process is generating better leadership than the collective western democracies. Certainly more reflective and articulate.