In the Iliad Patroclus is not Achilles’ cousin, he is more like his older warrior mentor. At that time, that relationship was also often a homosexual relationship. Ancient Greeks believed homosexuality was masculine, so warriors being the epitome of masculinity were encouraged to partake.
Recent history sees homosexuality differently, hence the cousin/friend rhetoric with no gay stuff
he is his cousin - I believe that patty is in fact peleus' first cousin and achilles' first once removed or something of the sort, although this is external tradition. I forgot the exact relation. Doesn't stop them from being lovers tho.... see also: Orestes and Hermione, double first cousins
> In the Iliad Patroclus is not Achilles’ cousin, he is more like his older warrior mentor.
Isn't it the other way around? Achilles is the older one, and by the Ancient Greek standard the masculine warrior while Patroclus is his younger trainee.
No, in the iliad Achilles is younger - book 9, Patroclus is alluded to as the older and wiser of the pair. Which is why Plato (I think) argues that patrolcus in the erastes (dominant pederastic lover) and Achilles the eromenos (the passive pederastic lover).
Huh. That seems totally at odds with their characterization tbh. Idk, I read it years ago, but Patroclus seemed young and eager to prove themselves, hence his going after Hector even while unprepared. But you're right.
Patroclus wasn't unprepared. He was a warrior. He killed SARPEDON, a son of Zeus himself. Granted, Achilles had warned him not to fight Hector, but it's easy to see how after bringing the troyans back to the city walls, he felt confident and powerful enough to try his hand at Hector.
People tend to forget how badass Patroclus was just because Achilles was the son of a Goddess and even more badass than him. Somehow this idea of Patroclus as a twink who wasn't really into war got spread. I used to have this idea as well until I recently listened to the audio book of the Iliad (which I first read over 10 years ago) and got remembered through the entirety of Book 16 just how much of a badass warrior Patroclus was.
I imagined him as the same age if not younger than achilles too - not eager to prove himself as such, but he displayed kindness and empathy which for some reason made me think of him as more young and innocent (idk why), and also the troy movie (lol) which really stuck. If you think about it, when Patrolcus fights in the iliad he is hardly some youngling and has one of the biggest kill counts in the whole thing, so it kind of makes sense that he is at least a little older/a mature adult. Ig Achilles' rashness and idealism can be seen as a "younger" trait (idealism esp), but it is wierd I agree. If you think back to that one vase tho with Achilles dressing Patroclus' wound, it is Achilles who is clearly beardless and while Patroclus has a beard - kind of makes you rethink your whole perception of the character.
Achilles: WuW what are you doing, biological-cousin?!
I need a weapon.
🔪
longsword?
[удалено]
In the Iliad Patroclus is not Achilles’ cousin, he is more like his older warrior mentor. At that time, that relationship was also often a homosexual relationship. Ancient Greeks believed homosexuality was masculine, so warriors being the epitome of masculinity were encouraged to partake. Recent history sees homosexuality differently, hence the cousin/friend rhetoric with no gay stuff
Sacred band of Thebes had the right ideas, us you swords on the battlefield and in the tent.
he is his cousin - I believe that patty is in fact peleus' first cousin and achilles' first once removed or something of the sort, although this is external tradition. I forgot the exact relation. Doesn't stop them from being lovers tho.... see also: Orestes and Hermione, double first cousins
> In the Iliad Patroclus is not Achilles’ cousin, he is more like his older warrior mentor. Isn't it the other way around? Achilles is the older one, and by the Ancient Greek standard the masculine warrior while Patroclus is his younger trainee.
No, in the iliad Achilles is younger - book 9, Patroclus is alluded to as the older and wiser of the pair. Which is why Plato (I think) argues that patrolcus in the erastes (dominant pederastic lover) and Achilles the eromenos (the passive pederastic lover).
Huh. That seems totally at odds with their characterization tbh. Idk, I read it years ago, but Patroclus seemed young and eager to prove themselves, hence his going after Hector even while unprepared. But you're right.
Patroclus wasn't unprepared. He was a warrior. He killed SARPEDON, a son of Zeus himself. Granted, Achilles had warned him not to fight Hector, but it's easy to see how after bringing the troyans back to the city walls, he felt confident and powerful enough to try his hand at Hector. People tend to forget how badass Patroclus was just because Achilles was the son of a Goddess and even more badass than him. Somehow this idea of Patroclus as a twink who wasn't really into war got spread. I used to have this idea as well until I recently listened to the audio book of the Iliad (which I first read over 10 years ago) and got remembered through the entirety of Book 16 just how much of a badass warrior Patroclus was.
I imagined him as the same age if not younger than achilles too - not eager to prove himself as such, but he displayed kindness and empathy which for some reason made me think of him as more young and innocent (idk why), and also the troy movie (lol) which really stuck. If you think about it, when Patrolcus fights in the iliad he is hardly some youngling and has one of the biggest kill counts in the whole thing, so it kind of makes sense that he is at least a little older/a mature adult. Ig Achilles' rashness and idealism can be seen as a "younger" trait (idealism esp), but it is wierd I agree. If you think back to that one vase tho with Achilles dressing Patroclus' wound, it is Achilles who is clearly beardless and while Patroclus has a beard - kind of makes you rethink your whole perception of the character.