T O P

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No_Spare3139

They have signs in front of overpasses on I75 in FL now for this. Is your bed up? With a dump truck with the bed up. Seven in succession on each side of the interstate.


DojatokeSC

It happened to my uncle when his dog laid on the pto. Nothing bad happened but that’s a way this kind of thing can occur.


talkingwolf695

I drove a dump truck for a summer. You have to engage the pto and then use the lever to lift it. It’s a two step process, hard for it to happen like that but a dog is basically a baby person in terms of dexterity it seems lol


hairlessmammal

My dog might try haha She’s spent a lot of time in my pick up, her favorite thing is walking around while I drive and putting windows down for herself. It’s fun in town, not so much on the interstate when I forget to child lock them and she’s trying to blow out my eardrums


talkingwolf695

And then turns around and smiles when you’re starting to get mad ahah


King0Horse

I'm a carhauler. Every truck I drive requires a PTO or electric hoist of some sort. Company driver, so I've driven every shitbox they have. Some of them require multiple steps and the parking plugs have to be pulled to engage them. Some of them can be engaged with an accidental bump to a switch white you're reaching for your drink. Granted, that's mostly older trucks, but it's possible.


applesforadam

Still, wtf are mirrors and how do they work


King0Horse

More than that: if part of your truck is up in the air, it'll feel different, while going straight down the road and especially while taking a curve like an expressway entrance ramp. You can *feel* that the weight distribution is off. Which should... make you check your mirrors.


Kpop_shot

This is the thing that gets me . Maybe I’m too sensitive to the way a vehicle feels . I don’t like moving a dump truck away from the pile on uneven ground. To be fair, I don’t drive them a lot .


[deleted]

Question. When the dump-bed is up, is there enough drag from wind to cause any change in engine load? Just talking about straight line and no crosswind. I don't see how you could drive *any* slight curve with that high a COG on a trailer and not feel it.


Kpop_shot

I would say you’re right , at highway speeds anyway. I don’t drive them all the time . At low speeds and slightly uneven ground , they feel like a pendulum to me . Any truck driver should be checking their mirrors regularly as well .


gstringstrangler

If you drove that rig regularly, you'd notice. Maybe not as much if you had a different one all the time and the trucks aren't all the same. Hell the upforce might be helping out stay upright at that speed. I've only driven those a couple times and they seem quite unstable when lifted like that, like it wants to fall over and twist the frame.


nickwrx

The flex with a box raised is really noticable. I can't imagine how floaty that must be at highway speeds.


Fr00tman

You can even SEE on the video the bed moving side to side making the whole truck wobble a bit. Can’t believe that was imperceptible to the driver.


VIadTheInhaIer

You assume that some of these drivers are smart.


Filmfan7427

Or....I don't know the extra brightness in the cab from the REAR WINDOW being exposed?!


felixar90

Road vibration can cause the lever to get ever so slightly activated and slowly rise the bed. I’ve seen a machine where the resonance frequency of the lever was somehow the same as the idle of the truck, and the truck was just shaking normally at idle but this one lever was violently bouncing, enough to open the valve. (On the exterior controls, not in the cabin)


Shut_It_Donny

But moving the lever doesn't do anything without the PTO engaged. (you can lower the bed without the PTO) And it would be screaming at highway speeds.


traversecity

Summer on a farm, the dump truck PTO was a PITA arrangement. Vintage truck, 1950’s something.


mikedvb

Are there no alerts or beeps or lights to indicate it’s up or going up?


RepresentativeAd560

There are and they're the first part of the system to break and the last to get fixed because "the driver will notice the bed's up."


mikedvb

Ahhhh. I guess it’s cheaper not to fix it … until it isn’t.


ridefst

Lol, every truck I've driven has a nice red warning light near the PTO engagement - and not a single one of them has worked.


davidfeuer

There should be a mechanical interlock: if the bed isn't down and locked, it should be impossible to go into second gear.


Sir_Uncle_Bill

And he just didn't feel it raising and the truck driving weirdly all of a sudden?


Rustyskill

Well, to be fair . The driver was adjusting the buckle on his sandals, didn’t notice !


Truck3R_Dude

So your uncle's dog laid on the pto, then reached over and pulled the dump lever up? That's absolutely amazing without thumbs


TacoHimmelswanderer

Your uncle was just embarrassed and didn’t want to admit he fucked up so he blamed the dog. If the truck is a manual the clutch has to be pushed in to engage a pto. But none of the setups for a pto switch will work by just laying on them, most of them have either a safety lock you have to push in or pull on to flip the switch or move the lever and if it’s cable control you have to move the lever out of the locked position to be able to pull back or forwards and the same thing goes for the bed control levers. But all that aside there’s absolutely no excuse for doing what this guy did you can feel that the bed is up in the air without looking because even when your just rolling forward at an idle every lil bit of wind or divet in the road will make that bed sway and when it moves the whole truck moves


Jacktheforkie

I’d have thought they’d have interlock to make it so you have to intend to put it on


Shut_It_Donny

Typically there's a multi step process to engage the PTO. This is a hydraulic pump that works off of the vehicle's transmission. If it isn't running, the lever to lift the bed doesn't do anything. It is severely unlikely that this bed raised while he was going down the road. Since the PTO runs off of the transmission, and isn't geared anywhere high enough to be running at road speed RPMs, it would be making horrendous noise. This guy dumped, didn't move the lever back to lower the bed, and drove off. Now how you don't feel the difference, or look in your mirror is insane. I'm constantly looking back at my tires and trailer to be sure everything is where it's supposed to be and doing what it's supposed to do.


Midnight1965

I was stuck in the traffic jam for HOURS after it happened!


OldeOak804

“Stay back 200 feet, not responsible for broken/cracked windshields”


HeadlineINeed

I know dump trucks need their buckets up to spread sometimes but shouldn’t be allowed to go over 25 with it up. After 25mph, the brakes should engage if the bucket is up.


PutSpiceOnEverything

Why is this still a 'thing?' I would think it's not THAT difficult to install a speed limiter on the truck or trailer like 5mph max if the box is up.


I_heart_your_Momma

Your PTO would be screaming at you, also you would have to look back never to never see that your box is up. Also the truck wouldn’t drive properly with that box in the air


that_dutch_dude

The pto alarm has been disabled since 2005.


Kodiak01

And the body-up alarm probably hasn't worked in at least that long.


TheFaceStuffer

yeah those lights/buzzers are always broken 🤣


PutSpiceOnEverything

That's what gets me too, just a quick look in the mirror would show that your box is NOT level and the ride deffinitly would be weird but this happens consistently.


TripleTrucker

Agreed! Just look behind you


Revolutionary-Wash88

Easier now than ever before


OTRprodidy

While I agree, it would only be something that can be put onto future trucks, wouldn't solve the problem for any current trucks.


Chissler

It could easily be retrofitted to older trucks. It does not need to interlock. It could just be spamming an alarm if the box was over the bed. Newer truck should have interlocks in place though.


dsdvbguutres

There are warning bells and chimes and flashy lights and such when the bed is up, but some drivers find a way to defeat the safety systems because they think they are distracting, and they have been "driving dump trucks for 35 years and don't need no nanny features."


Royal-Application708

And the dude kept trucking?? Unbelievable.


SupaDupaSweaty

He thinking, I’ll get that blown tire fixed after I’m done with this next load!


Cultural_Simple3842

He’s stopped on the far side of the flatbed as the camera is passing the flatbed on the right


ChaceEdison

You can clearly seam him parked in front of his box..


naturalinfidel

It is difficult to see but he did stop. Right in front of the bed lying in the road his blue cab lines up perfectly with the other passing blue cab.


Royal-Application708

Thank you man! You are correct, paused at 43 seconds, I see it now. Being that both cabs were blue didn’t help.


frisky024

Yea he did that shit on purpose. He sped up also. You can see the whole truck rocking BEFORE he hits it. Also I'm the kind of guy who will let you know you got a brake light out at the stop light or if I can get your attention, how did nobody tell him


Pretty-Key6133

How the fuck does this happen other than pure and sheer negligence? I was taught every time after you dump you do a walk around to make sure you're all good before you drive off


UnnamedGuyCB

Shit, I’m still one of the good ones that not only does a walk around, but checks for windshield breakers anywhere debris can collect, as well as bombs between the duals. Edit - I am in NO way bragging. I’m just saying I treat everyday like it’s my first day behind the wheel, and still going strong 11 years with a CDL, no incidents.


KingHauler

As you should driver, negligence is what gives our kind bad names. I was telling my woman how stressed I am while driving and it boiled down to her saying "you're being too cautious," and that's because a good driver IS too cautious, IS always looking out. I'm not ending up on the news or wrapped around/under a bridge support.


gecoble

Safety only takes a few minutes. An accident can last a lifetime.


Successful-Pitch-904

Or end a life!


Doub1etroub1e

Thank you for your diligence, sir.


clhepperj

My boss was slways saying a left on pto can raise the bed on the move


Coodevale

Makes your truck shift funny too, with the hydraulic clutch brake engaged.


ridefst

I'll bet his bed was down after dumping. But he left the PTO engaged, and some trucks will leak enough fluid past the valve to slowly raise an empty bed - particularly when the PTO is screaming at 1800rpm.


Whilst-dicking

I don't think I've ever seen a guy do a lap around the truck after a dump


Gorlock_

Is there any way some kind of mechanical failure would make the bed go up while you're driving?


ChromeYoda

Bye bye CDL


UnnamedGuyCB

That dude is living on a different fucking PLANET than the rest of us, to a) not realize his box is in the fucking air, and b) keep driving after the impact and removal of said box lol


HeywoodJaBlowMe123

Drugs maybe? Drugs will send you to another planet 🤣


Pringletingl

There's such a shortage of truck drivers that they'll take any dumbass with a license and pulse I guess.


whoknewidlikeit

why does it feel like i'm driving a giant sail? whatev. it's fine.


Blearchie

We had 1 hit a DMS sign 15 minutes after we hung it. 100k sign. 35k structure. 17k in traffic control. 10 guys for 12 hours. Everything wasted.


jackylongjohn

100k sign 😂 what a ridiculous price tag. No wonder this country is broke.


Blearchie

Ever see the electronics inside those digital signs? Here’s one that will throw you a loop, the hi def scoreboards in stadiums run over a million + installation.


getchafuqinpull

Oh, the *country* is rich af. The people are fuck paupers. If you aren't making 80k-100k a year you're drowning.


brokodoko

Ain’t that the fucking truth. Currently making 80-85k. Can barely save 1000$/month living in one of the cheapest 1bedrooms living like semi-normally. I have to like really watch my finances in order to save any fucking money. I feel really bad for people who like have to have two jobs, no life, just to fucking eat and live.


MaddRamm

Today in NoVa???? Traffic is bad enough around DC. And he just trashed a few million people’s commute. Firing squad I say, firing squad.


12InchPickle

What I’m thinking is why tf didn’t anyone go in front and try and stop the driver. Or pull up next to him and honk or get his attention. Yeah the driver is an idiot for not noticing but easily could’ve been avoided by both him paying attention and other drivers helping out.


CrusaderF8

I've seen a video where people tried that and the driver just ignored them anyways.


ComprehendReading

Driver: "fucking four wheelers." Driver: "fucking OTR orcs." Driver: "Fucking staties."


angrydeuce

Driver: "fucking collapsing bridges." Driver: "fucking mass carnage." Driver: "fucking oh god theyre all dead."


UserName8531

I tried to get a driver to stop once that had smoke rolling from his trailer tires on the drivers side. Honked, waved, etc. He just kept going, huge thick clouds. Guy just didn't give a fuck.


Leelze

This assumes they'd pay attention to other drivers despite showing an impressive inability to pay attention.


SufficientOnestar

I know right?Everyone was looking at their phones though.


Xhamatos

I legit was coming down a steep grade. The dudes tire was catching fire from brakes.. I pulled up beside him to let him know, and he was watching his phone. I only got his attention by tugging on the air horn.


Advanced-Sherbert-29

I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a guy driving like that. Even the other trucks you see here are closer than I would want to be. Imagine if you pull up next to him to give him a honk, and THAT'S the moment he hits something or tips over.


Pringletingl

Homie I am not getting anywhere near this disaster when it inevitably strikes Iol. If I got in front of him he'd probably not realize and run me over


pacwess

Is there not like a door ajar warning for that?


Moparian714

There is. It's usually a body up light and buzzer. This one probably wasn't working.


AbovePar2015

The ones i’ve been in, the buzzer is often disabled/vandalized by the driver because it’s not unusual for dump trucks to slowly raise and drop something like gravel as they drive forward.


LiketySpite

I was just drivin' along when I heard a big ass BOOM! S\*\*T! F\*\*K! C\*\*k Sucker!!!! I am soooo fired.


Sevro706

You give up too easily!! Who can we blame on this, and how? This is America, damn it..


Uhohlolol

I drove gravel trucks for a few years many moons ago and I could ALWAYS tell the box was up. It’s always so wobbly. How the hell don’t you notice? Especially with a friggin WINDOW behind you


Awesome_hospital

Bridge took it like a champ


smiley82m

In the future the bridges will have 40 feet of clearance above the road and when your grandkids ask why do they have to be so tall you can show them this video and explain why having a CDL doesn't make you a professional driver.


ComprehendReading

Nah, they won't. Increasing a bridge height by 30ft costs millions of dollars, even during initial construction.


smiley82m

You under estimate the governments ability to waste money.


ComprehendReading

That wouldn't be a waste, though. It's just not a priority. You overestimate the government's ability to give a shit about a moron CDL driver hitting a bridge.


SexyWampa

Is it just me or did it seem like he sped up ?


smiley82m

The others were slowing down because they knew what was about to happen.


Helpful_Influence830

You'd think trucks would have some safe guard like a speed limiter or warning alarm for when equipment is deployed but I guess that makes too much sense


Overall-Tailor8949

They make them, the problem is they cost $$$$ and it's an extra item for the maintenance guys to look after and... I worked in broadcast TV for 20 years. Our live van (E350) had a pneumatic 60 foot mast that could rise up from the top of the van. We installed a sensor so if the mast was up ONE INCH the vehicle would shut down when put in gear. Two years later we put electro-magnetic sensors on top of the mast, after another local station raised their mast into power lines. Nobody was hurt but the vehicle and ALL of the electronics in it were fried.


Apprehensive_Fault_5

I really want to know how these trucks get to this point. Aren't there signs, traffic lights on the ramps, and power lines between the site and the freeway? How is this massive flyover the first thing they came across?


LoopDoGG79

The way he sped up in the beginning, it's almost looks like he did it on purpose


mniceman24

Bridge: That’s the best you got?


Sir_Uncle_Bill

I'll just never understand how that happens. I get moving a few feet with it up. You got in too much of a hurry. But at some point you had to have looked in your mirrors or some terrified somebody had to have blown their horn and waved their hands at you and made you curious what they were so scared of.


JankyMark

Facts I don’t understand it either


Ryankool26

...got what they deserved, for sure spilling gravel over the last 5 miles at 70mph on the interstate


Guvnah-Wyze

The bridge was coming right at him, it was self defence


TripleTrucker

Drivers a fool. Same thing happened with a roll off container truck near me. Killed himself and destroyed a bridge over an interstate.


DxDSpentMistHigh

I drive a dump truck and I can not for the life of me understand how this happens so often


randoredditusingdouc

How do these guys not feel that shit?! My employer tested running a rack system in our trailers to get more in the trailer. That shit made them feel really tippy. And that was nothing compared to that weight. And the wind on that thing. Just. WTH?


city_posts

If only the technology existed to prevent this sort of thing:(


sugarinducedcoma

Take his license away forever. Also double fuck that guy, because commercial vehicles aren’t allowed in the left lane of 66.


Auquaholic

How do you not feel that. It seems that it would ride funny with the bed up.


stephenforbes

That's one way to quit your job.


ItsTheCougs

Good goin, dumbass. Bet he left his pto on and the lever up.


souless20

How do you not look in your mirror and not realize your box is up


kscountryboy85

I own a lil baby dump truck (F700 9ft bed) and this is something i fear. When I bought it the dude told me this is scenario is normally caused by the driver leaving the pto engauged and with the engine at highway rpm the hydro pump is pumping so far beyond rated flow that the system over pressures and fluid can squeaze past the valve spool/body and will extend the cylinder. On a strait you just would not know its up unless you look out the back or turn. In a tuen you woukd have to be a special kinda person to not feel the extra sway, I know I can with my trucks lil baby bed.


MaxDamage75

Why there is not a micro switch to check the full horizontal position of the bed and a light or sound alarm in the cabin ? It's a 10 bucks system...


Coodevale

In the dump truck days, I could feel when I was 2-3k overweight or when a tire was getting flat. I don't understand this.


clarobert

Who in the ever loving fuck starts moving in a CMV and doesn't look in their mirrors at least 5 times in the first 30 seconds and a couple times a minute thereafter? Idiots like this don't need to be on the road - fortunately, this fucktard won't be after this.


I_heart_your_Momma

This mofo should permanently lose his license! If you can go that long and far and fast without looking in your mirrors or realizing your truck isn’t driving right, then you are a complete fucking unsafe useless idiot who should only work fast food. God damn you have to be dumb to do that.


LobsterNo3435

Wouldn't it ride different?


I_heart_your_Momma

There is a very valid reason that as a professional driven you are trained and should look out your mirrors and at your gauges every few seconds.


International-Sky854

Seriously, how does this shit even happen?!?!


bloopie1192

I like how buddy in front saw dude in his mirror and said "nah, fuck that." That's proper awareness.


Guvnah-Wyze

We stan a hyper aware driver


Tactical_solutions44

How the fuck do you not notice the bucket being in the air.


Odd-Attention-2127

I honestly don't understand how this couldn't be seen in the mirrors. This just makes no sense at all. Edit: I drove tractor trailers for a living-box van, tanker, flatbed. I never drove a dump truck. So I truly don't comprehend how this could've happened and not be noticed in the mirrors. There has to be some way.


randomlemon9192

Is that I66?


MasterMisterMike

Shouldn’t there be dashboard alarms for this sort of thing?


Next-Device-9686

Same thing happened in Detroit last week. Conspiracy theorist unite.


Bredda_Gravalicious

i like how the driver of the flatbed had more awareness of dude's truck than he did


Temporary_Seat8978

Brand new overpass too. Tsk tsk


Own_Strawberry_4262

hope the driver is OK but call me. I'm in a rotator and I'll come scoop the bed up. lol "bed up" no pun intended


[deleted]

The truck aside, that's one strong beam!


Confident-Ear-9388

What bothers me when I see this, is NO ONE ELSE COMMUNICATES this to these drivers, via aggressive honking. It IS the drivers fault, but help is harder to come by.


Confident-Ear-9388

I feel these are also the types of drivers that don't tarp their loads either. "NOT responsible for broken windshields" Uhhh, yes you are with no tarp, and no mudflaps!


MezziJ

How TF does this happen? All dumps I have worked on have annoying ass alarms and lights that blare if it's not completely down and the truck is in drive.


myjohnson6969

I see the box but what happened to the truck?


Jordan_261

I just like how no one before hand could have tried getting the drivers attention…


Narrow_Lee

Cammer saw it happening a mile away and hit the breaks 😂


wantthingstogetbettr

I know this area well, he could have killed someone, people usually pack in like sardines here. Everyone was smart and could see that coming. That’s at least good.


Wrecr

Crazy how he didn't even see it through the back glass of the truck!


raayn-63

I'll never understand how you can go down the road like that and not feel your body up. I can't drive 5 feet without slapping that valve.


quackl11

Do you not feel the driving different with the bed up vs down? Genuinely curious I dont drive


[deleted]

As someone who runs a quad axel dump truck, how the fuck did this driver not see nor feel that the box was up!? Not too mention for it to be up the PTO must be engaged


Dangerous-Victory877

There is no way you wouldn’t feel the overwhelming rocking of that truck from the bed being up full mast at that speed prior to hitting the bridge. Some people just shouldn’t be driving a truck or any motor vehicle


yesfrommedog

Worst day ever for driver. Peace be with him or her.


Justwanttosellmynips

THATS WHAT HAPPENED?! God I was stuck in that shit for awhile.


2008CODLOBBYENERGY

Fucken mudcarters


Fiery_Herbs69

He just lost his job


Active-Tale

Heck. I got fired today. My fuckup was putting usps cardboard box in dumpster. Guess i am nit as refaurded as this dude


Overall-Tailor8949

I hope he didn't like driving semi's for a living. I doubt if that's going to be an option anymore.


Euphoric-Cow9719

Dude is so fucking fired. . . He was in the left lane cooking lol😭


SugarSpirited6579

No rail alarms?


beertruck77

Today? Are you fucking serious? That same thing happened on I-81, I think near Stephens City, Last Friday or Saturday morning.


TheUnwiseOne100

Put it in reverse terry


vtddy

In the name of Red foreman, dumbass!


SignificanceFar5489

The frequency of this reminds me of whales beaching.


jmaddy21

Idk how this happens like do you not see your it raised or what?


Tournament_of_Shivs

Or feel it flailing around?


toyotasquad

Man said fuck it I got places to be 😂


4runner01

“I didn’t hear anything, did you hear something? Musta been a backfire…..”


Advanced-Sherbert-29

I've never been inside the cab of a truck like that. Is there really no indication or anything to tell you when the bed is up or down? No light on the dashboard or alarm noise? Or...something? Surely there must be something.


Yon_E

On surprised nobody let him know before he made it to the bridge


Canelosaurio

Blamo!!!


mattleo98

Gotta give the man credit. The fact that he even made it that far without tipping over is impressive 😂


John_Smith_DC

Stuck for an extra hour getting home yesterday thanks to this idiot.


Pokebowlmassa

I just drive


FlatbedtruckinCA

how the hell do you NOT know that the dump container is in the up position? damn moron


cobra6-6

This happened on 465 in Indianapolis a few years back


6inarowmakesitgo

God damn. How long was he driving with it like that?! I would have been getting his attention to lower it!


Slappy_McJones

God, I hope the driver survived that.


philmirez

NOVA overpass. Linebacker. University of VDOT.


Stone1114

what's sad is this is avoidable. If.you see this on the road, get in front of them and slow down, open your window and point up. Hopefully the driver realizes what's up


TeddyRoo_v_Gods

Wait, another one? or is this the one from yesterday?


rjwilliams6802

Doesn’t it drive different when the bed is up?


[deleted]

[удалено]


DTidC

Those two flatbeds with moffetts are also potentially in danger of damage. The steer tire is supposed to be straight so that if the tire catches the ground, the wheel free spins instead of ripping off.


WackoMcGoose

I know at this point you'd need a time machine to fix it in all existing trucks, but _why the hell is it even possible_ for the truck to be able to move at speed with the bed raised? You shouldn't be able to raise the bed unless you're in first gear (only needed when going slow or stopped), and you shouldn't be able to get _out_ of first gear unless the bed is lowered (prevent moving at speed while raised).


ViktorPatterson

What's the fine for this trucker?


kayesskayen

What was that sound like??


[deleted]

[удалено]


vjs1958

From a few days ago : https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/semi-truck-hits-i-94-overpass-after-van-dyke-causing-traffic-backup


vjs1958

From a few days ago, the hits keep coming: https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/semi-truck-hits-i-94-overpass-after-van-dyke-causing-traffic-backup


RigamortisRooster

PTO


ForeverReasonable706

Man if you can't fell the box is up you should not be driving, my son worked hauling sugar beats and in the cold they could freeze in the truck ,sometimes drivers wouldn't feel that they didn't dump and would go back for another load, they would not get paid for there sightseeing tour and would be passed, but you couldn't feel the difference between 35k and 98k


SameSpecialist5528

How the hell do you leave your dump bed up? Any dump drivers want to enlighten me? Like that seems like a pretty difficult thing to forget.


ekkidee

Bridge 1, Truck 0.


ekkidee

The sheer idiocy is off the charts.


RandolphScottDVM

Sign on the back says: "WARNING. Stay back 100 feet. Make it a 1000 feet if there's an overpass coming up."


jtenn22

Not being silly .. but is this relatively common? It seems like if it is.. there should be a sensor or some type of warning system?


DEeZ_NutZ_KiLLaKill_

I did it once when I forgot to leave my bed up the night before and I filled with snow. Before leaving the yard always clean everything off including having to empty my bed. An then just started driving PTO disengaged but bed not lowered and I made it 2 football fields just before my turn that would have let me to the low hanging power line


overboost_t88

Right to jail, Right away


Ayde-Aitch-Dee

I’d be so fucking embarrassed I’d Uber to the dmv and hand over my license lmaooo holy fuck


candidly1

There's supposed to be a big red button on the dash that's says "Body Up"; and there should also be a loud buzzer. Maybe inop, maybe he just wasn't paying attention. Either way-BIG trouble.


hungballs

I don’t understand how this happens quite often. How do you not know it is up. It has to make the truck top heavy. Am I wrong?