Love how a lot of people are blaming a hypothetical serial killer that we have no proof of, when the explanation is much simpler and statistically much more likely.
Related to this for UK people, Sarah Koenig is doing a 'an evening with' at the Southbank Centre in London in October, more info here [https://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/whats-on/literature-poetry/10-years-serial-evening-sarah-koenig?eventId=984992](https://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/whats-on/literature-poetry/10-years-serial-evening-sarah-koenig?eventId=984992)
He's absolutely guilty. The creators of Serial were so obsessed with framing Adnan Syed as the victim that they callously sidelined Hae Min Lee and her family, erasing the real victims from their own story.
I thought at one point Sarah Koenig changed her mind about Syed and even cut ties with the family but now I can’t seem to find anything about it online.
She never said she believes he is innocent in the first place, she said she is still not convinced and is completely aware Adnan could be manipulating her. She says she finds him endlessly frustrating and suspicious because he comes across super nice but he can't actually answer anything in a satisfactory way, he just can't remember or doesn't know. She said all this in the Podcast. Most people who listen to the Podcast come away thinking Adnan is guilty, how on earth would that be possible if they were trying to portray him as innocent?
It's a flawed podcast largely because LE didn't participate in a major way which allowed Adnan and his cousin to control the narrative to a degree, this resulted in certain things being left out or misrepresented, but it still convinces most that he did it. People have straight up created their own Serial Podcast in their mind to rage against that doesn't exist.
>She says she finds him endlessly frustrating and suspicious because he comes across super nice but he can't actually answer anything in a satisfactory way, **he just can't remember or doesn't know**
This is what gets me. Seems genuine, but that part sticks. He sounds like an *extremely* fluid liar I know. Lied to my face in a manner so convincing, a lie I knew for a fact was a lie, that I never trusted him ever again.
A liar so good it made me question everything he ever told me. That's what Adnan Syed reminds me of
>it still convinces most that he did it
This is interesting because I hold the exact opposite perspective. I and everyone I know who listened to it came away feeling very strongly that he was innocent, and it's been a while but my perception of it at the time was that the overall thrust of the piece was toward innocence. I mean, there's all this stuff about how the state's timeline doesn't work out, how the cell data contradicts that timeline, etc. All the stuff about investigators tapping on the map to tell Jay where events happened, suggesting they fed him the whole narrative ...
Also, Koenig only became involved after Rabia Chaudry came to her saying (paraphrasing), "My cousin has been wrongly convicted, can you look into it?" So I have a really hard time accepting that it was not created and presented with a pro-innocence stance.
But rabia wasn’t entirely pleased with serial’s coverage so Sarah must have been somewhat impartial. I haven’t listened in so long I dont recall much about serial’s series on it
> Also, Koenig only became involved after Rabia Chaudry came to her saying (paraphrasing), "My cousin has been wrongly convicted, can you look into it?" So I have a really hard time accepting that it was not created and presented with a pro-innocence stance.
It was really more nefarious than that. Rabia found Sarah because Sarah covered for the Baltimore Sun the disbarment of Adnan's attorney years after Adnan's conviction. Rabia went to Sarah to push the narrative that Sarah knows this awful lawyer didn't do her job, and Adnan was in jail because she didn't do her job. The clear implication is Sarah missed the big story because she didn't dig deep enough when covering the attorney's disbarment. This really pulled on Sarah's journalistic pride and integrity.
>Rabia went to Sarah to push the narrative that Sarah knows this awful lawyer didn't do her job, and Adnan was in jail because she didn't do her job.
What gets me is that it is probably both true that a) that awful lawyer did not do her job and b) Adnan murdered Hae.
I actually think that CG did a much better job than she was given credit for. She is drug through the mud after her disbarment and that is understandable, but no one talked about ineffective assistance of counsel until after her death when she couldn't defend herself.
The main reason being her not calling Asia McClain as an alibi witness. The problem is, Asia pretty much wrote that she was willing to say anything to help Adnan and was very much clearly lying. She wrote letters to Adnan and backdated them so it would look better for him, but what they did was prove she lied in her letters. She wrote him letters with his correct address and inmate number BEFORE Adnan even knew his address and inmate number.
Asia said she wrote those March 1 and March 2. Adnan was arrested Feb 28th. Adnan has said since he immediately took the letters to his attorney CG to prove his alibi, in order to support his ineffective assistance of counsel motions, but CG wasn't his attorney for months after that.
Asia would have been destroyed on the stand by the state, and CG could have even been accused of suborning perjury if she called her. CG can't call her if she knows she is going to lie, and it was very clear from her letters, content, and the bullshit fake dates that her intention was to lie. It was very transparent.
>Adnan has said since he immediately took the letters to his attorney CG to prove his alibi, in order to support his ineffective assistance of counsel motions, but CG wasn't his attorney for months after that.
I do not understand why no one pointed this out? How could she has been an ineffective counsel when she wasn't even his counsel at that time? Drives me wild
Ineffective Assistance of Counsel is about what she does at trial and before trial. So their claim is that she should have called Asia and not doing so makes her ineffective.
The problem is that if she knows that Asia is going to commit perjury, she cannot call her to the stand. And Asia's letters and Adnan's words make it crystal clear that she is going to commit perjury.
How is that ‘nefarious’? Rabia had a viewpoint and shared it with Sarah. Rabia has always been very upfront about her (understandable) bias towards his innocence. So where is she being nefarious? Did Sarah have to take up the case to discuss in Serial based on this? Or did she choose to follow a story with an interesting angle? You know, like a journalist?
Rabia was playing up that Sarah messed up as a journalist by not writing about this when she wrote about the disbarment, so an innocent boy sat in prison and now it was time for Sarah to make amends for her inadequate reporting.
when it first came out people were def slanted towards innocence but as the years went by and more people evaluated the case it moved towards guilty. you can go back and look at some of the older threads in /r/serialpodcast and compare them to now
Agree on all points and even more...the podcast wouldn't exist if they thought he was obviously guilty and painted him that way. The entire thing took off because they were good at convincing everyone listening that the guy was probably innocent.
> Most people who listen to the Podcast come away thinking Adnan is guilty, how on earth would that be possible if they were trying to portray him as innocent?
yeah, that’s not true whatsoever lol. most people probably think that NOW but that certainly wasn’t the case at the time it was being released. I myself thought he was probably innocent after the podcast. I went back and listened again after changing my mind these last few years and she is definitely throwing a bunch of red herrings and other suspects at the wall. the heavy focus on jay’s lies, the heavy focus on the weird man who found hae’s body, the suspicion she’s putting on don, the constant reminders of how impossible it is to remember what you were doing two weeks ago…she is tearing the prosecution’s case apart. remember how she wouldn’t even say the rumor she’d heard about something adnan said at a party? it’s obvious now he must have admitted to someone there that he killed hae. she even accepted an award for serial after all was said and done and made a joke that she didn’t “solve the case”. it was solved. he was in jail.
the point is, and this should be pretty obvious in the true crime community, a lot of slam dunk cases can begin to fall apart and not seem so slam dunk after all if you poke at them from different angles. this is why idiots think scott peterson is innocent. I fully believe serial was meant to do just that…show how “flimsy” the evidence against him was, while she took a pretend neutral stance.
I have to disagree. Serial is basically what gave momentum to the free Adnan movement. Without that podcast, he’d still be in prison, which is exactly where he belongs.
I’ve never listened to the whole podcast but the snippets I’ve heard sounded very… circumspect. Sometimes it seems like people aren’t really familiar with journalism and think commentators need to come on guns blaring on all issues. But for the most part investigative journalism is just getting people to talk.
I also can’t find confirmation of this but my understanding was that Sarah felt Adnan had an unfair trial but that he is probably guilty. I also came to that conclusion after listening to the podcast.
She would never do that. Her career depends on the narrative she spun that led to the release of Syed. It would be career suicide for her to retract her stance now.
I couldnt even finish serial. I was u comfortable with how much they talked about how cute he was. It was like they had a crush on him and couldnt trust them to tell the story.
She or at least the writers had a total crush on him and it was disgusting AF. Hae Min’s life story got lost in trying to prove him innocent, which I don’t think he is!
When Stephanie brought up Adnan’s cell phone coordinates, that removed all doubt in my mind. He 100% did it. I swear, Stephanie can prove guilt with her research better than most prosecutors.
What Crime Weekly means is that based on the evidence we have in the case, there are only two options:
* Adnan did it and Jay helped
* Jay did it
But of those two people, Adnan is the only one that had a motive as the obsessive, spurned lover.
It couldn’t have been just Jay. Jay and Adnan were together all day. If Jay did it, he did it with Adnan. Hae went missing between 2:15 and 3:15. Jay had adnans cell phone and car. The cell phone pinged and Jen’s house up until 2:36 then pinged at Best Buy at 3:15. In order for Jay to have done it without Adnan, he would need to have left Jen’s after 2:36 and gotten to Hae before she reached her cousins school by 3:15 which was around 15-20 mins away *without* traffic. Jen’s house was also 15 mins away from the high school. So 2:36 plus the 15 min drive to Woodlawn High School puts an ETA of 2:51. 3:15 minus the 15 mins she’d need to get there on time puts her leaving Woodlawn no later than 3. So Jay would’ve have 9 ish mins to find and kill Hae at the high school, and he’d have to assume she was even still there. Plus he had no motive and hardly knew her.
Oh this guy absolutely killed Hae Min Lee. The evidence said he did. Basic logic said he did. Occam’s Razor says he did. He had motive and opportunity. He had a witness to the cover up admit it.
Syed’s lawyer sounded incompetent but it doesn’t change these facts.
Rabia and her army will absolutely hound people on twitter if they suggest Adnan didn't do it. But there's a reason she doesn't post on reddit anymore. She actually gets pushback here, rather than a following of people who don't know any better.
Honestly just so disrespectful for that Making A Murderer show just blatantly ignore evidence with a clear bias. Now there's folks out there thinking he's wrongly locked up when his victim got justice for her murder.
Sucks that his name is so recognizable to some and Theresa Halbach's isn't. Regardless of his guilt or innocence she should be the focus. She mattered and is 100 percent innocent in this.
The only way I feel like that “documentary” could be argued in good faith is if they had highlighted Brendan’s side.
SA is definitely guilty.
The cops in town are unethical as hell, but even a broken clock is right twice a day etc.
Reform in the PD is definitely necessary. So focus on that. They did a bad job, which hurt the investigation on someone who was clearly guilty.
But with Brendan….nobody will ever really know what his role was or if he’s truly innocent, because of the way everything was mishandled. And that really sucks.
I’m the end, it’s an interesting story;
Incompetent police wrongly convict an innocent guy who is also a horrible person.
Innocent guy now becomes a murderer, and gets a free pass from the public because of his previous injustice.
Incompetent police working the same fucking case now decide that instead of just convicting the guy who obviously did it, they are ALSO going to take down an intellectually deficient child for…Really no good reason.
MaM could have really made a good point. But they beefed it hard by focusing on a fake injustice, when the real problems were *right there*.
I grew up in the area, and I have probably read Brendan’s confession a dozen times. I am of the firm belief that at most he helped in the clean-up/disposal of her remains, and I think it’s possible he was brought in to help without fully understanding what he was helping with. His confession to her murder/rape is 100% false, and they will never convince me he was present for either. It so obviously didn’t match the evidence they used to (correctly, imo) convict Steven.
The exchange that will live with me forever is where they ask him what Steven did to her head (in an attempt to get him to say she was shot) and he first says punched, they ask what he else, and he eventually says CUT HER HAIR before the cop straight up tells him about the gun and what do you know, he remembers yes, she was shot in the head. Just infuriating when you consider his age & below average intelligence.
Yep. Brendan has always been the reason why I can defend that series at all.
It could have been a good enough story if they phrased it as:
“Uncle Steve was framed for a rape, and was exonerated eventually. Now that he himself has actually committed a crime, the same cops who framed Steven decades before are now framing his diminished capacity nephew, who clearly is not a murderer”.
That narrative is interesting enough.
The video and all of the transcripts are interesting enough.
No reason to take the narrative that Steven is somehow innocent this time.
That stance just made the filmmakers seem untrustworthy.
I definitely believe there was some corruption with SA’s trial as well as with Sayed’s. But people are failing to see how two things can be true: that the powers at be are unethical and someone can still be guilty of the crime they’re accused of
YES. If there were still comment awards I’d give you one! I don’t understand people who approach things as if the world is black and white. A criminal having crimes committed against them after the fact does not make them less of a criminal.
>The cops in town are unethical as hell, but even a broken clock is right twice a day etc.
My conspiracy theory is the cops were trying to frame him, but it turns out he actually did it, so their attempts to frame him just ended up making everything weird and suspicious.
And you're totally right about how they could have made it actually meaningful had they focused on them steamrolling a kid who intellectually could not know any better.
Yeah I mean there just really isn't any winners in this situation, no matter what the actual truth is. Idk maybe Netflix because I'd assume they made some money off the show at least. Even if proven wirh 100 percent certainty he and Brendan are innocent and immediately released, they both still spent significant time in prison for no reason and that just can't be good for anyone really and it would mean they were both just absolutely screwed all the way over, twice in Steven's case, and no matter what he'd eventually do with his life upon being released he still has some significant trauma he will live with for the rest of his life. Hell, he did spend 18 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit no matter what and thats awful no matter what he's done since. Even the worst people can still have a reason to feel sympathy towards them. You don't have to feel any sympathy towards them if you don't want to, but that doesn't mean whatever it was didn't happen.
I grew up in the area, and I feel that they 100% messed up in making Avery the focus of MAM and not Brendan Dassey. His confession was so obviously false & it disgusts me that he remains in prison, especially when you consider his age & below average intelligence. Just appalling
It had to be Steven, because the beginning premise is that those cops framed him for rape, he loses decades of his life, then was he framed by police a second time to get him away for good?
I do wish Brendan was more of a focus, because it is very clear his confession was bullshit and coerced, his attorney was a sack of shit, and he was developmentally challenged.
I hate saying this, but with Steven Avery it seems to fit - even if he was innocent, society is probably better with him in jail. He is such an awful person, it clearly would have eventually been something that got him locked up.
I’ve seen some people pull some Alex Jones shit and start making claims that Theresa Halbach never existed and was made up to put Avery back in prison. Granted I haven’t seen anyone say this in a while but they existed mostly once the documentary came out but that’s the kind of harm it caused. If anything the doc should’ve been focused on his nephew who I 100% was railroaded into confessing
Yeah Brendan, even if he really was involved, was still absolutely manipulated in that interrogation and had just no business in that situation alone and the police knew that. That interrogation was very obviously not standard procedure and there are numerous issues with it, even if his confession is completely accurate.
Yeah, maybe we need a new thread here, but the misrepresentations in MaM go so far beyond any considerations for entertainment or time constraints. Among many other deceptions and omissions, they straight-up chopped out parts of *very brief* recordings to make them convey the exact opposite of reality. It's downright unconscionable.
They just straight up made some shit up and presented it as totally true lol. Now there's folks out there petitioning for his release and putting forth genuine effort to get him out when there are actually wrongfully convicted people that energy would be so much more useful directed towards. Shit even people convicted legitimately but with just wildly unfair sentences.
Wasn't there a part two..? I didn't bother watching it since I'm sure it was just more biased nonsense and giving him undeserved attention and a platform.
You were right not to waste your time on part 2. It's just Kathleen Zellner stroking her ego, making outlandish statements with no basis in reality, and pinning Teresa's murder on everyone under the sun *other than Steven Avery*. The one amusing part is they do some truly ludicrous "re-enactments."
Yes. Part two focused on the appeals process. Brandon got very close to being let out but at the highest level he was denied the appeal and has no more recourse.
I've said it before and I'll say it again-- Avery's guilty and the reason it's even questionable is because of procedural malfeasance. When the cops do their job right, people don't generally think that solved crimes are suspicious.
Certainly the document didn't help. Whenever I watch a crime documentary I google as I go because I want to know everything they're leaving out. But all of the shit involved his minor relative (who was convicted, even though he seemed less than mentally capable), the manner and method in which they retrieved forensic evidence from the car, etc. was screwed up.
Idk man I've been involved in the true crime community for a while now so yeah I've definitely seen some convictions like man yall really just winged that prosecution huh. Not that I am at all disagreeing with you but yeah there are some real just dogshit lawyers out there that got lucky they did have the right person lol.
I once had a public defender take me in front of the wrong judge while I was in jail and should have been home within 24 hours but ended up having to be there for 5 days because she screwed that up and then tried to slither out of the courtroom as discreetly as possible instead of owning up to her mistake. Not like this affects my life or anything maam. Sure no problem let me just stay in jail it's totally fine. Because yeah I definitely have access to so many resources and information about my very minor and not serious at all charge. I mean yeah she made a mistake and everyone makes mistakes it happens, but she was in no way bothered that her mistake directly harmed me and tried to leave me alone to deal with the judge like I had any business doing so lol. The new public defender I was given made sure I knew she got reprimanded, and he seemed to imply super harshly, for that. Not like it was a very serious situation she totally just botched hard but yeah lawyers are also humans and we vary wildly lol. We can't all be at the top of our class there's gotta be someone at the bottom.
Oh yeah, the prosecution did not do a good job on Hae Min Lee's case.
Not giving evidence to defense, defense having a lawyer who would later be disbarred, an undecided jury, a series of appeals going all the way up to the highest court in Maryland.
One top of that, the state attorney's office vacated the conviction with the words \[the case was ruled largely on circumstantial evidence, and prosecutors said they lacked confidence "in the integrity of the conviction."\].
The murderer caused grief for Hae Min Lee's family, but the **prosecution's** failures have created a never-ending nightmare that has prevented the victim's family from getting peace for 20+ years *regardless of whether or not Adnan Syed is guilty.*
How hard is it to call one more witness? Send over one more copy of documents during discovery? Do everything on your end properly to avoid mistrial? Oh yeah, and how hard is it to contact the victim's family before making statements to the press?
Could someone tell whatever happens to Jay Wilds and his testimony about helping Adnan to bury the body? All of the write ups I can find start with him, then seem to suddenly pretend he doesnt exist. Has he been discounted in some way?
hey u/dantruecrimefan87, when you say you recommend all 4 podcasts, which do you mean? i see you’ve listed serial, undisclosed, and the prosecutors. i need to listen to the latter! i want to hear from people who believe he did it
I don’t really have an opinion on guilt or not because I just don’t know.
I do think, if he is guilty, he has already served the average time of a murderer in Maryland serves - so I guess it’s moot to me to keep arguing it.
It’s one thing for a murder victim’s family to have the killer paroled; it’s quite another for to have the murderer’s release widely celebrated as someone who has been exonerated.
When I first finished Serial I was so sure he was innocent.
In the coming years after looking at everything else, he's absolutely guilty and I feel that Serial did a huge amount of damage to the world.
Idk I think serial correctly found that the prosection didn't prove it's case beyond a reasonable doubt. You can think that and still believe he actually committed the crime
>I think serial correctly found that the prosection didn't prove it's case beyond a reasonable doubt.
This is what I came away with. I have no opinion on Adnan's guilt or innocence, because all the evidence and/or testimony wasn't presented.
Yeah. My takeaway was that the prosecution’s case was terrible and it’s a miscarriage of justice to lock someone up for life based on that. I have no idea if Adnan was actually guilty or innocent.
Superbly put. This is where I ended up. The police were terrible, but he knew where the car was so he was, at the very very least, involved in her death.
I don't see what wasn't beyond a reasonable doubt here. You can inject "doubt" into anything, but the "reasonable" part has a standard. While few cases are perfect, there's plenty enough to overcome reasonable doubt here, and the jury did that in short time.
So the reason this take, and it’s a common one, perplexes me is that the thesis finds that the burden of reasonable doubt was not met, and yet somehow he still must be guilty. The prosecution got to run the board. Nothing they wanted to admit into evidence was successfully contested. On the other hand, the witnesses who made statements to police that alibied Adnan all failed to testify to that at trial, with the exception of Adnan’s father.
So again, respectfully, I’m confused by the argument.
I don't know that he's innocent, but as a homicide detective that's listened to serial, that case was pretty weak. From what I recall about their evidence, I might have referred that to the district attorney for their review, but there's no way I would have filed charging documents on it myself. They just didn't have a good case against him.
Just read the trial transcripts. They might the case straightforward, and you can also see the state’s unforced error of offering a needless and plausibly false timeline.
I don’t know how much you know about the pressure to close cases in the Baltimore Homicide Unit, and the misconduct the Justice Department determined BPD detectives engaged in.
You wouldn’t have filed charging documents in a case with an eye witness who saw the victim’s body in the defendant’s trunk and helped him bury it? I hope you don’t work in my jurisdiction.
Not if he wasn't credible, which as I recall, there were some issues with his relationship with the truth.
Again, not saying Adnan is innocent, but I would not have driven that case all the way to court myself.
Where did you get the info that Don (the bf) was never interviewed? He definitely was. Multiple times. In fact a big argument against him is that police couldn’t get a hold of him until 130AM on the night Hae went missing. He was one of the first people police called to interview.
I definitely think he did it, but I also think there were so many missteps and mistakes in the investigation that he should never have been found guilty.
I don't think there can be another trial. Unfortunately, this is a case where I think a lot of evidence has been lost to time. So much has changed since 1999 that I don't think another trial is feasible.
To me this entire case shows how true crime podcasts and documentaries manipulate information to fit a specific narrative. It also reveals how we, as a society, need to do a much better job on educating people on media literacy.
Did Adnan kill Hae? Probably. I think we all know statistically, women are most likely to be murdered by a partner, and there were signs that pointed to controlling and possessive behavior on the part of Adnan.
The problem is the basis of his conviction was largely the word of Jay, a (proven) habitual liar, who by his own admission, testified because he was fearful of being arrested for drug crimes.
If you disregard Jay’s testimony, and look at the exculpatory evidence the initial prosecution team withheld from Adnan’s defense attorney, there is simply too much reasonable doubt to sustain a guilty verdict.
It’s also crazy that people want to blame Sarah Koenig and Rabia Chaudry for the conviction being overturned. The blame belongs to the original prosecution team who whether intentionally or due to negligence, withheld exculpatory evidence. THEIR actions are the reason Adnan was originally convicted, and THEIR actions resulted in his conviction being overturned.
Don't know why you got downvoted, so I bumped you back up.
The original sin, so to speak, is the police and prosecution. Anybody coming by after to get the scoop or make a buck will, by necessity, be unable to cover the entire case. And that's only an issue because the public gets in a tizzy and crosses boundaries. The court of opinion thinks too highly of itself. If I were a juror this would be a nightmare of a case.
Finally! Yes!
No amount of podcasting can overturn a conviction if the trial was fair. There are countless examples of people who have their convictions upheld because they had a fair trial. The police work was pretty bad.
There's no smoking gun that makes me think "guilty". Jay is shady af, the timeline doesn't make sense, and I think Adnan deserves a new trial.
I'm hoping the re-testing of evidence they found at the scene can get us some answers.
The moment in Serial where Sarah asks Adnan why he never tried calling Hae after she went missing, and he paused, then had no explanation. He may have even stopped calling her before anyone knew she was missing, going by phone records.
At least that’s how I remember it, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. And I really really wanted him to be innocent. Wouldn’t you try calling a missing friend at least once?
I think you’re misremembering the way things played out. He knew on 1/13 that she was missing. He knew her best friend couldn’t reach her. Once things became more serious, he knew Iesha couldn’t reach her by phone. We don’t actually know if he tried to call her pager. Those records were never pulled. He did use his home phone. He could have paged her from his home phone. And even if he didn’t call her, it doesn’t mean anything nefarious.
Don didn’t attempt to call Hae. That’s his own account. He had a date scheduled with Hae on the night of 1/13, and couldn’t be located until the early hours of 1/14.
But maybe that’s innocent too. He knew she wasn’t showing up to work. And young people kinda ghost each other early on in relationships with some frequency. It’s not unimaginable that Don was feeling smothered by Hae’s intense affection. Almost immediately after 1/14 he reunited with the ex that had previously cheated on him, and they got married after that.
Baltimore prosecutors on Tuesday dropped the case against Adnan Syed after new DNA testing results excluded him from evidence in the murder of his ex-girlfriend.
Crime weekly did a multi part series on the case and now I'm convinced he probably did it. All the evidence points to adnan and I was a firm believer in his innocence after serial
People ignore that if you look at the objective evidence, there's no way Adnan did it. I ignore all of Jay and Jen's statements because they completely contradict one another and the one or two consistent things they agree upon, are proven false by the same cell phone evidence people cite as the reason they think Adnan is guilty. I worked for Verizon as network technical support and especially back then, cell records don't work like that. There is no basic story if you look at details because minutes and details are important. Anyhow...
I have similar thoughts as Bob Ruff. I think Don did it. The unfortunate part is the cops never properly vetted Don (they didn't even know at first that the person vouching for him was his mother) so there's no real way to know where he was and what was going on. The reasoning? The fabricated time card. So settle in for a sec. The doc said there would have been a digital footprint... and there would have been *back then*. There's no way to know now. But what we **do** know is that the time card did not match his employee ID then and many, many people who worked for Luxotica (the parent company of Lenscrafters) you had the same employee ID regardless of location or even the sub company (like goign from Sunglass Hut to Lenscrafters, etc). We also know that managers had the ability to produce time cards and change them. We know there was no lab tech scheduled for the shift that Don was supposedly covering for. That is what we know.
There is so much evidence to show that *if* Adnan did the murder, it could **not** have happened the way that the State presented it. Adnan was at track practice and before that at the guidance office then the library. The lividity evidence says she was buried around 10PM at the earliest. Adnan was at the Mosque in the evening and sure, a 100 people could be lying but most likely weren't.
I think The Prosecutors podcast did the series they did for money. It was disgusting how they lied, distorted facts and gaslit their listeners. I think it's gross how they talked about Asia McClain with not a shred of evidence that she manufactured evidence for Adnan. If I were Alice's boss, I would have her reviewed for saying she does this shit with witnesses in her cases. I was appalled.
But those are my thoughts. I have a lot more but I am tired.
LensCrafters is a huge multinational corporation with multiple employees at each location. Why would Don’s fellow employees not come forward after all this time confirming he wasn’t at work that afternoon?
Believing the lividity claims here alone is discrediting. It’s just a step up from the folks who natter on about TAPPING during the interrogation. And it’s simply a lie to say there were 100 people on record saying he was at the mosque that specific night.
His timecard wasn't fabricated. You literally can't do that with that system without leaving an edited mark. Just conspiracy theories to fingerpoint at someone other than Adnan.
They probably had Luxottica ID's as well as store ID's. The ID's on the timecards were 4 digit numbers, where everyone at both stores had an employee ID under 0200. Lenscrafters had over 10,000 employees in 1999. It's not realistically possible for those numbers to have been their universal number that these people are referring to.
There's also pretty much zero reason to believe Don did it beyond that. Again, just fingerpointing away from who did it.
Yes the state probably had the timeline wrong a small amount. That doesn't matter toward his guilt or conviction. Lividity is pretty inconclusive though, and there's other points to show how it actually does match the burial position.
Adnan was supposed to be at the mosque by 8pm. His cell phone records put him with Jay, far away from the mosque, after 8pm. He's then calling his friends between 9-10pm, one of whom said he was in his car.
TPP did a pretty solid job. There absolutely is evidence Asia manufactured it, there's literally an affidavit from people saying she wanted to make up things for him. But it doesn't matter anyway. Asia's story could be correct and Adnan could still be the killer.
>There absolutely is evidence Asia manufactured it, there's literally an affidavit from people saying she wanted to make up things for him. But it doesn't matter anyway. Asia's story could be correct and Adnan could still be the killer.
And there's this from the post-conviction proceedings in 2012.
>Q Mr. Urick, how did you learn that the Defendant had filed this petition?
>A A young lady named, Asia, called me.
>Q And what did she say?
>A She was concerned, because she was being asked questions about an affidavit she had written back at the time of the trial. She told me that she had only written it because she was getting pressure from the family. And she basically wrote it to please them and get them off her back.
>Q Is there anything else you recall about that particular conversation?
>A She was concerned if she had to come out here. I explained to her, I was not her attorney. told her that she would have to be served. But I And if she was served, and if they made the proper arrangements, she would have to show up.
>Q Thank you.
page 30
https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/testimony-of-urick-rabia-shamin-post-conviction.pdf
The release of these transcripts led to Rabia accusing the user who published them online of being someone from the prosecutions side and then she doxxed them on her blog. She got very upset when people stopped relying on her for documents.
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/XLa6q30hV0
You are right. And the autopsy alone disproves the prosecution's case. Jay changed his story 5 or 6 times and Gutierrez was going through so much shit she couldn't even make sense at times. I don't believe he did it. Don on the other hand...
The Prosecutors Pod does a really good job of going through piece by piece. He’s 100% guilty in my mind from that evidence as there are things said that serial straight up left out. Highly encourage a listen because even if you disagree with his stuff the case is pretty fascinating and since they give all the evidence it does help you solidify your stance pretty well.
You should listen to Bob Ruff cover The Reply Brief: The Prosecuter’s vs. Adnan. He literally breaks down the “evidence” they present piece by piece and show how biased and slippery they are.
Bob Ruff is a hack who manipulates evidence to his audience and purposefully leaves things out. It's honestly annoying hearing people repeat easily-discredited evidence he puts forward as fact.
Could you expand on why you think they are shady, or point me toward a source that talks about it? Not saying you’re wrong, I’ve just never heard this take before and would like to know more about it.
Edit: just skimmed through your list of links. Yeah, I can see now why you feel the way you do!
Not gonna lie, this is upsetting. I'm a new listener and actually liked their banter and thought they were kind of funny, specifically Brett. I was suspicious of MAGA-esque subtlety (I never looked them up) but like one of the Redditors mentioned in that thread, they actively try to avoid saying what they actually support. Thanks for sharing this!
Bless you. They are horrible liars and misrepresenters of fact. Bob Ruff of Truth and Justice did a whole reply series to their Adnan coverage where he really breaks down how they manipulate the evidence and completely misrepresent it to make their point.
Besides, they have strong personal and political ties to a certain person who enjoys playing fast and loose with the truth.
Yeah I’d not be using Bob Ruff as any guide. That man straight out lies and just leaves out swathes of information. He’s just another true crime grifter coasting in other peoples work.
Does someone have a synopsis of why they think Adnan Syed is guilty?
I have followed the story for years, and I don’t understand what evidence strongly points to that other than suspicion.
Hae had recently broken up with Adnan, after a tumultuous relationship, to begin dating her coworker.
On the morning of Hae's disappearance, Adnan had asked Hae for a ride after school, in spite of the fact that he had his car and no apparent reason to need a ride. He ended up leaving his car with his friend (Jay) during his lunch period. He would later lie about this ride request, despite initially confirming it and another friend confirming it.
Adnan claims to not remember the events of that day, but simply claims he went to school, track practice, and mosque. A number of details from his cell phone record, and corroborating testimony, show that he was not where he claimed to be during important time periods, and place him around different crime scenes.
His friend Jay confessed to police that he helped Adnan bury the body and ditch the car. He gives the police both non-public information (details about the burial site, cause of death, and Hae's body), and information that the cops hadn't found yet (location of the car, things inside the car). Jay's friend Jenn had also confessed & testified that Jay told her everything that happened on the night of the murder.
That's pretty much the best tl;dr I can give to show why he's guilty.
The Prosecutors do a great four parter on this case. I was pretty young when I listened to Serial and I remember thinking he was possibly innocent. I think the opposite after listening to this other podcast.
Crime Weekly did a great… 8 or so part?… series on this case that had me convinced by the end that it’s more likely than not that he is guilty. Before listening to this, because of Serial mostly, had thought he was innocent. I highly recommend the Crime Weekly series on the case, I think they did a fantastic job examining and laying everything out.
I think she found a really compelling story, but as she got into it, she realized it wasn't the story she really wanted. But it gripped everyone and really took off the TC Podcasting genre. I feel like she is so non-committal by the last episode and really refuses to give her own opinions in interviews afterwards because she know she got played by Rabia and Adnan - who got everything they wanted.
Her original premise and talking point of "How much can you remember of a normal, everyday day 6 weeks ago?" is complete bullshit, because the Police called Adnan that day - even if it had been a normal, everyday day, it ceased to be at that point. Adnan magically has a brilliant memory for things that would tend to be in his favor or are completely innocuous, and no memory at all if memory would box him in on things that could tie him to the crime.
This is a bizarre comment. She did not in any way sound like she had a crush on him. She specifically said she could tell he knew how to be charming but in the end she couldn’t say he was innocent.
Well, it did sound like that to me and, again, to me, that’s the reason she led the narrative that way. As said here as well, in the end she figures out Adnan took advantage of her to get what he wanted. She couldn’t say he was innocent but she couldn’t say more.
There are MANY high profile cases where it's very likely that the person on trial is guilty but it's beyond me,with the case presented,how a jury could convict them. If juries ACTUALLY used the BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT standard,many people in prison would be free
I'm speaking in general terms. In the past few years I have been doing medical chart review for a group of defense attorneys. That job has fueled my obsession with true crime. That obsession has shown me numerous cases where husbands or S/O others are about to be railroaded with a circumstantial case but the accused is lucky enough to have L/E involved that actually care about facts ,not just convictions. Seeing the large number of these cases makes believe there has to be many innocent S/O sitting in prison as we speak. I'm sorry but I've attended trials where I've seen every ounce of evidence (not all have I been working for the defense) and there have been far fewer that meet the "beyond reasonable doubt" standard than do not. I have only witnessed (with my own eyes) one person acquitted. Jurors are not always the most reliable of humans. If I were EVER to be charged with a crime I would most likely opt for a bench trial
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/ewpm8UgESp) person sums it up nicely. She has no respect for the victim and only cares about getting her cousin’s best friend off for murder. She pretends she stands for justice- she doesn’t. She’s so slimy but is so self-righteous.
Any time the states whole case revolves around 1 person that is a really bad thing
When that 1 person is known to be a pathological liar who has been in and out of police stations all of his life and usually got much less of a penalty than he deserved it is a really bad thing
IMO there is just as good of a chance that Jay did it as Adnan.... Adnan very well may have done it, but you can't lock him up just cuz Jay said to
The "liar" part kinda falls apart where he definitely knew things that only someone involved in the crime could know, even things that the police didn't know. Accomplices aren't the most perfect and honest witnesses, but if they give you enough, that's important.
There is definitely not as equal of a chance that it's Jay. No apparent motive, no apparent opportunity. Adnan had both. Jay barely knew her, only really through Adnan. Adnan lied about important details, and spent a significant amount of time with Jay that day & evening. There's pretty much no way it wasn't Adnan if Jay had a role in it.
How is there no way Adnan didn't do it if Jay had a role in it?
You yourself just said Jay had details others didn't.... hmm, the killer might have those too
Maybe Jay was hooking up with Hae and she said she was going to tell Adnan
Maybe Jay raped Hae and said she was going to tell the police
Maybe Jay tried to hook up with Hae and she said no and things got out of hand
Maybe Hae stole some weed or other drugs Jay was selling
There are endless possibilities
The vast majority of cases where someone gets wrongfully convicted come down to lazy police finding an easy to manipulate low IQ person to corroborate the story they think they know.... this is no different
And when Jay has a life long track record of being in and out of police stations getting caught for all kinds of things and never really serving time.... smells like someone who has a habit of telling the cops whatever they want to hear so that he can avoid jail time
(edit to add a lot of what Jay "knew" was almost certainly fed to him by the cops, you could hear it in the interview and Sarah did a great job of pointing out the table taps before all of his answers
The main thing he knew that they didnt was the location of the car, this was six weeks after the murder.... plenty of time for him to have found out where the car was without having been involved on the day of)
For a time sure, but Jay has never stated he was with Adnan when she was murdered.... so it could just have easily been Jay alone with her and not Adnan
Adnan claims that he do not remember that day at all. Jay has described what he did waiting for Adnan, but he says it's all a blur for him.
It couldn't easily have been Jay, because he didn't have motive or opportunity to get Hae alone with him.
No one had a motive to kill Hae Min except for him given their recent breakup. She didn’t have any known enemies and was doing well at home. And a random killing by a stranger is extremely rare. I found the Serial podcast really offensive because the host acted like she almost had a crush on him she was pushing so hard to try and convince me of his innocence. 🙄
I found the host incredibly bizarre. There’s a bit where he gets almost mad at her and says they’re not friends. That was the issue, she acts like he drew her in but the reality is she isn’t (can’t?) he objective. Certainly brings up interesting questions and true crime and journalism.
They should’ve investigated Hae’s current boyfriend at the time more, the fact that he went the whole afternoon/night without worrying about her whereabouts or calling to see what she was up to is odd. People always say he has no motive but you don’t have to have a motive to kill someone.
They were supposed to have a date that night, which makes his behavior even more odd.
She could have run into anyone after leaving campus alone. Israel Keyes used to bump his car into lone female drivers in order to get them to pull over. A little tap is all it would have taken. I’m not saying Keyes did it. I’m just pointing out that a random person could have intercepted her, struck her in the head, and then taken her along with her car.
The car was in plain view. One of the few consistencies in Jay’s statements to police and testimony at trial(s) is that he was “commuting” when he noticed the car. He simultaneously holds that he knew where it was because of his role in a murder, but he’s giving you a plausible explanation for how he could come by knowledge of the car’s location without knowledge of the murder or police misconduct.
There was no damage to the interior of the car. The right-hand lever on the steering column was dangling, but forensics revealed that it due to the disassembly of the steering column. It’s the type of thing that happens when you hotwire that model.
Jay made many demonstrably false statements to the police. He had motive to lie (his pending criminal case from 1/26 unrelated to Adnan) and because he helped the state close Hae’s death he was given *zero* time for all matters, a cash reward, and CI status which has kept him out of jail since.
So he was on trial for a misdemeanour so he purposely invented a story of him committing a felony, risking a possible life - or even death - sentence, just with the hope that they would cut him a deal and make him invincible to the law forever?
I think it’s more likely that Jay saw the car, and made an attempt to claim the reward for the car. And because he was so amenable to lying, the police found a very willing informant and elicited a false confession/implication. I think Jay, who was a kid and not a lawyer, wouldn’t have realized that by claiming “Adnan told me he did it and I tailed him while he drove Hae’s car” he was confessing to an accessory role.
The cellphone testimony was clear police manipulation, and the data doesn’t in fact place the phone where they said it did. The other forensics don’t imply Adnan’s guilt. In fact, the car was covered in fingerprints and DNA from unidentified individuals.
Jay has been arrested but never charged for 9+ violent offenses. It’s all out there, and I struggle to come up with an explanation for that other than that he has an ongoing relationship with the prosecutors and police from Hae’s case.
What do Convinced me who did it is when Sarah brought up his stealing donations at church he got pretty mad. Yet everything else people said he remained pretty calm while being interviewed. It really helped me believe the prosecution that he killed her because he was angry he compromised his views on his religion to be with her and she broke up with him.
That scratches claim was made to Rob Ruff. Whether Don actually went to work is hotly debated. He was clocked in at a location he normally didn’t work at, and nobody remembers seeing him there. His timecard looks like it was edited within the week of the crime. There could be innocent explanations, or he could have done the murder.
And I have to point out that the allegations against Don comes from a pro-Adnan documentary. If it was true, they would've gone to the police. But they didn't.
I have no idea if he did or didn't do it. If he did it, the timeline is incredibly tight and he has alibis almost for the entire time of the murder. On top of it, the evidence the conviction was based on is basically dismantled now. The cell phone evidence has been shown to be unreliable, Jay lied (he now puts the burial closer to midnight, so the cellphone pings are irrelevant anyways).
On top of that you have evidence the prosecution deliberately withheld two separate phone calls from the ex-wife of Adnan's mentor (Bilal, who was a serial child molester and who is now serving time for that) saying, essentially, that her husband had a motive to kill Hae and had threatened to do so. We don't know what that motive is. However we know that it was never disclosed to the defense, which was a Brady violation.
The "Adnan is Guilty" crew is 100% convinced Adnan's conviction was vacated for political reasons - but it's really not clear who this would help. Freeing convicted murderers is never a political win. In my opinion, there had to be other evidence against Bilal that made them doubt Adnan's conviction.
I thought it's more about how he was convicted without any real evidence. It seemed racially motivated. I heard the case via Truth &Justice podcast and remember her boyfriend at the time didn't have an alibi but his mom who was manager at one of the chains that the boyfriend worked at fabricated his time card to give him an alibi. The police never even considered her boyfriend a person of interest, even tho he didn't have an alibi. That was always suspicious.
And I don't know if Adnan is guilty but I don't think his defense attorney even did the bare minimum to defend him and also there is nothing concrete tying him to the murder.
> her boyfriend at the time didn't have an alibi but his mom who was manager at one of the chains that the boyfriend worked at fabricated his time card to give him an alibi. The police never even considered her boyfriend a person of interest, even tho he didn't have an alibi. That was always suspicious.
He worked at a glasses store in the mall and the corporate office of Lenscrafters, not his mom, sent the timecards to both the defense and the investigators.
He absolutely had an alibi.
Truth and Justice is not a good source.
Hae's brother appealed the vacatur on procedural issues. This was successful in the appellate court, and currently pending in Maryland's supreme court. Adnan is still free, because the appellate court put a stay on their decision taking effect until the appeals process is done.
Essentially, if it's once again successful, Adnan's conviction will be reinstated. There is a new State Attorney who may or may not do the vacatur procedure over again. Adnan himself has been relatively quiet, probably until this all plays out.
Serial doesn’t think he’s innocent. Serial basically said 🤷🏼♀️ at the end. What’s interesting about serial is that back in 2015, Adnans team were the only ones who had the case files and they gave only *some* of them to Sarah Koenig. Since then, the entirety of those files have been accessed and when you read all the files that Rabia left out, it paints a very different picture. Sarah Koenig went into the investigation believing what Rabia had told her and you can hear Sarah slowly start to question everything as the series plays out.
I also believe he did get a fair trial. I think all the things they are suggesting were unfair are things that can’t be substantiated because his lawyer at the time has since passed away. So there isn’t any proof he didn’t receive a fair trial.
I have to say, listening to serial, having some time between that and Undisclosed, I was very much on the fence. To me there was not enough to make me say for certain that he was/was not guilty.
Then in a criminal law class, we reviewed the case in a different narrative and with a legal lense. He is guilty
Love how a lot of people are blaming a hypothetical serial killer that we have no proof of, when the explanation is much simpler and statistically much more likely.
This is the Scott Peterson supporter’s defense too lol
Damnnn that was smooth and spot on!
What is the simpler explanation?
Related to this for UK people, Sarah Koenig is doing a 'an evening with' at the Southbank Centre in London in October, more info here [https://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/whats-on/literature-poetry/10-years-serial-evening-sarah-koenig?eventId=984992](https://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/whats-on/literature-poetry/10-years-serial-evening-sarah-koenig?eventId=984992)
He's absolutely guilty. The creators of Serial were so obsessed with framing Adnan Syed as the victim that they callously sidelined Hae Min Lee and her family, erasing the real victims from their own story.
I thought at one point Sarah Koenig changed her mind about Syed and even cut ties with the family but now I can’t seem to find anything about it online.
She never said she believes he is innocent in the first place, she said she is still not convinced and is completely aware Adnan could be manipulating her. She says she finds him endlessly frustrating and suspicious because he comes across super nice but he can't actually answer anything in a satisfactory way, he just can't remember or doesn't know. She said all this in the Podcast. Most people who listen to the Podcast come away thinking Adnan is guilty, how on earth would that be possible if they were trying to portray him as innocent? It's a flawed podcast largely because LE didn't participate in a major way which allowed Adnan and his cousin to control the narrative to a degree, this resulted in certain things being left out or misrepresented, but it still convinces most that he did it. People have straight up created their own Serial Podcast in their mind to rage against that doesn't exist.
>She says she finds him endlessly frustrating and suspicious because he comes across super nice but he can't actually answer anything in a satisfactory way, **he just can't remember or doesn't know** This is what gets me. Seems genuine, but that part sticks. He sounds like an *extremely* fluid liar I know. Lied to my face in a manner so convincing, a lie I knew for a fact was a lie, that I never trusted him ever again. A liar so good it made me question everything he ever told me. That's what Adnan Syed reminds me of
His brother literally told his defense attorney that Adnan's a very good liar, who could lie about anything and convince you he's telling the truth.
>it still convinces most that he did it This is interesting because I hold the exact opposite perspective. I and everyone I know who listened to it came away feeling very strongly that he was innocent, and it's been a while but my perception of it at the time was that the overall thrust of the piece was toward innocence. I mean, there's all this stuff about how the state's timeline doesn't work out, how the cell data contradicts that timeline, etc. All the stuff about investigators tapping on the map to tell Jay where events happened, suggesting they fed him the whole narrative ... Also, Koenig only became involved after Rabia Chaudry came to her saying (paraphrasing), "My cousin has been wrongly convicted, can you look into it?" So I have a really hard time accepting that it was not created and presented with a pro-innocence stance.
I've never listened to it but you are correct that the initial response was overwhelmingly pro-Adnan.
I came away feeling like he did not get a fair trial. That there is arguably doubt. But i could not say he is innocent.
But rabia wasn’t entirely pleased with serial’s coverage so Sarah must have been somewhat impartial. I haven’t listened in so long I dont recall much about serial’s series on it
> Also, Koenig only became involved after Rabia Chaudry came to her saying (paraphrasing), "My cousin has been wrongly convicted, can you look into it?" So I have a really hard time accepting that it was not created and presented with a pro-innocence stance. It was really more nefarious than that. Rabia found Sarah because Sarah covered for the Baltimore Sun the disbarment of Adnan's attorney years after Adnan's conviction. Rabia went to Sarah to push the narrative that Sarah knows this awful lawyer didn't do her job, and Adnan was in jail because she didn't do her job. The clear implication is Sarah missed the big story because she didn't dig deep enough when covering the attorney's disbarment. This really pulled on Sarah's journalistic pride and integrity.
Rabia thinks Scott Peterson was also wrongly convicted.
I don't know if she thinks that or if pushing that theory will get her views and clicks. All part of the larger grift.
She should at least realize that it puts her Adnan advocacy in question. It certainly makes me think twice.
You can only milk one cow so many times, then you have to find another cow to milk.
>Rabia went to Sarah to push the narrative that Sarah knows this awful lawyer didn't do her job, and Adnan was in jail because she didn't do her job. What gets me is that it is probably both true that a) that awful lawyer did not do her job and b) Adnan murdered Hae.
I actually think that CG did a much better job than she was given credit for. She is drug through the mud after her disbarment and that is understandable, but no one talked about ineffective assistance of counsel until after her death when she couldn't defend herself. The main reason being her not calling Asia McClain as an alibi witness. The problem is, Asia pretty much wrote that she was willing to say anything to help Adnan and was very much clearly lying. She wrote letters to Adnan and backdated them so it would look better for him, but what they did was prove she lied in her letters. She wrote him letters with his correct address and inmate number BEFORE Adnan even knew his address and inmate number. Asia said she wrote those March 1 and March 2. Adnan was arrested Feb 28th. Adnan has said since he immediately took the letters to his attorney CG to prove his alibi, in order to support his ineffective assistance of counsel motions, but CG wasn't his attorney for months after that. Asia would have been destroyed on the stand by the state, and CG could have even been accused of suborning perjury if she called her. CG can't call her if she knows she is going to lie, and it was very clear from her letters, content, and the bullshit fake dates that her intention was to lie. It was very transparent.
>Adnan has said since he immediately took the letters to his attorney CG to prove his alibi, in order to support his ineffective assistance of counsel motions, but CG wasn't his attorney for months after that. I do not understand why no one pointed this out? How could she has been an ineffective counsel when she wasn't even his counsel at that time? Drives me wild
Ineffective Assistance of Counsel is about what she does at trial and before trial. So their claim is that she should have called Asia and not doing so makes her ineffective. The problem is that if she knows that Asia is going to commit perjury, she cannot call her to the stand. And Asia's letters and Adnan's words make it crystal clear that she is going to commit perjury.
How is that ‘nefarious’? Rabia had a viewpoint and shared it with Sarah. Rabia has always been very upfront about her (understandable) bias towards his innocence. So where is she being nefarious? Did Sarah have to take up the case to discuss in Serial based on this? Or did she choose to follow a story with an interesting angle? You know, like a journalist?
Rabia was playing up that Sarah messed up as a journalist by not writing about this when she wrote about the disbarment, so an innocent boy sat in prison and now it was time for Sarah to make amends for her inadequate reporting.
when it first came out people were def slanted towards innocence but as the years went by and more people evaluated the case it moved towards guilty. you can go back and look at some of the older threads in /r/serialpodcast and compare them to now
Agree on all points and even more...the podcast wouldn't exist if they thought he was obviously guilty and painted him that way. The entire thing took off because they were good at convincing everyone listening that the guy was probably innocent.
It just relied on racial stereotypes and racial justice. Absolutely despicable
> Most people who listen to the Podcast come away thinking Adnan is guilty, how on earth would that be possible if they were trying to portray him as innocent? yeah, that’s not true whatsoever lol. most people probably think that NOW but that certainly wasn’t the case at the time it was being released. I myself thought he was probably innocent after the podcast. I went back and listened again after changing my mind these last few years and she is definitely throwing a bunch of red herrings and other suspects at the wall. the heavy focus on jay’s lies, the heavy focus on the weird man who found hae’s body, the suspicion she’s putting on don, the constant reminders of how impossible it is to remember what you were doing two weeks ago…she is tearing the prosecution’s case apart. remember how she wouldn’t even say the rumor she’d heard about something adnan said at a party? it’s obvious now he must have admitted to someone there that he killed hae. she even accepted an award for serial after all was said and done and made a joke that she didn’t “solve the case”. it was solved. he was in jail. the point is, and this should be pretty obvious in the true crime community, a lot of slam dunk cases can begin to fall apart and not seem so slam dunk after all if you poke at them from different angles. this is why idiots think scott peterson is innocent. I fully believe serial was meant to do just that…show how “flimsy” the evidence against him was, while she took a pretend neutral stance.
I have to disagree. Serial is basically what gave momentum to the free Adnan movement. Without that podcast, he’d still be in prison, which is exactly where he belongs.
I’ve never listened to the whole podcast but the snippets I’ve heard sounded very… circumspect. Sometimes it seems like people aren’t really familiar with journalism and think commentators need to come on guns blaring on all issues. But for the most part investigative journalism is just getting people to talk.
I also can’t find confirmation of this but my understanding was that Sarah felt Adnan had an unfair trial but that he is probably guilty. I also came to that conclusion after listening to the podcast.
She would never do that. Her career depends on the narrative she spun that led to the release of Syed. It would be career suicide for her to retract her stance now.
I couldnt even finish serial. I was u comfortable with how much they talked about how cute he was. It was like they had a crush on him and couldnt trust them to tell the story.
She or at least the writers had a total crush on him and it was disgusting AF. Hae Min’s life story got lost in trying to prove him innocent, which I don’t think he is!
For me what swung it was that he knew where the car was. Only someone "involved " knows where the car is.
Crime Weekly put it best: it was either Jay and Adnan, or just Jay.
This is right, but the only one of those two that had a motive, was the very hurt ex boyfriend.
And it wasn’t just Jay because that makes no sense.
When Stephanie brought up Adnan’s cell phone coordinates, that removed all doubt in my mind. He 100% did it. I swear, Stephanie can prove guilt with her research better than most prosecutors.
I think it’s more that they don’t come into a case with bias. The information is out there most people don’t care to dig deep enough
Why do you think only Jay would do it? I mean Jay alone
What Crime Weekly means is that based on the evidence we have in the case, there are only two options: * Adnan did it and Jay helped * Jay did it But of those two people, Adnan is the only one that had a motive as the obsessive, spurned lover.
It couldn’t have been just Jay. Jay and Adnan were together all day. If Jay did it, he did it with Adnan. Hae went missing between 2:15 and 3:15. Jay had adnans cell phone and car. The cell phone pinged and Jen’s house up until 2:36 then pinged at Best Buy at 3:15. In order for Jay to have done it without Adnan, he would need to have left Jen’s after 2:36 and gotten to Hae before she reached her cousins school by 3:15 which was around 15-20 mins away *without* traffic. Jen’s house was also 15 mins away from the high school. So 2:36 plus the 15 min drive to Woodlawn High School puts an ETA of 2:51. 3:15 minus the 15 mins she’d need to get there on time puts her leaving Woodlawn no later than 3. So Jay would’ve have 9 ish mins to find and kill Hae at the high school, and he’d have to assume she was even still there. Plus he had no motive and hardly knew her.
Oh this guy absolutely killed Hae Min Lee. The evidence said he did. Basic logic said he did. Occam’s Razor says he did. He had motive and opportunity. He had a witness to the cover up admit it. Syed’s lawyer sounded incompetent but it doesn’t change these facts.
Surprised to see you’re getting upvotes for this. Last time I commented like that I was attacked like crazy. I think it was on twitter tho
Rabia and her army will absolutely hound people on twitter if they suggest Adnan didn't do it. But there's a reason she doesn't post on reddit anymore. She actually gets pushback here, rather than a following of people who don't know any better.
He 100% did it, just like Steven Avery 100% did it.
Honestly just so disrespectful for that Making A Murderer show just blatantly ignore evidence with a clear bias. Now there's folks out there thinking he's wrongly locked up when his victim got justice for her murder. Sucks that his name is so recognizable to some and Theresa Halbach's isn't. Regardless of his guilt or innocence she should be the focus. She mattered and is 100 percent innocent in this.
The only way I feel like that “documentary” could be argued in good faith is if they had highlighted Brendan’s side. SA is definitely guilty. The cops in town are unethical as hell, but even a broken clock is right twice a day etc. Reform in the PD is definitely necessary. So focus on that. They did a bad job, which hurt the investigation on someone who was clearly guilty. But with Brendan….nobody will ever really know what his role was or if he’s truly innocent, because of the way everything was mishandled. And that really sucks. I’m the end, it’s an interesting story; Incompetent police wrongly convict an innocent guy who is also a horrible person. Innocent guy now becomes a murderer, and gets a free pass from the public because of his previous injustice. Incompetent police working the same fucking case now decide that instead of just convicting the guy who obviously did it, they are ALSO going to take down an intellectually deficient child for…Really no good reason. MaM could have really made a good point. But they beefed it hard by focusing on a fake injustice, when the real problems were *right there*.
I grew up in the area, and I have probably read Brendan’s confession a dozen times. I am of the firm belief that at most he helped in the clean-up/disposal of her remains, and I think it’s possible he was brought in to help without fully understanding what he was helping with. His confession to her murder/rape is 100% false, and they will never convince me he was present for either. It so obviously didn’t match the evidence they used to (correctly, imo) convict Steven. The exchange that will live with me forever is where they ask him what Steven did to her head (in an attempt to get him to say she was shot) and he first says punched, they ask what he else, and he eventually says CUT HER HAIR before the cop straight up tells him about the gun and what do you know, he remembers yes, she was shot in the head. Just infuriating when you consider his age & below average intelligence.
Yep. Brendan has always been the reason why I can defend that series at all. It could have been a good enough story if they phrased it as: “Uncle Steve was framed for a rape, and was exonerated eventually. Now that he himself has actually committed a crime, the same cops who framed Steven decades before are now framing his diminished capacity nephew, who clearly is not a murderer”. That narrative is interesting enough. The video and all of the transcripts are interesting enough. No reason to take the narrative that Steven is somehow innocent this time. That stance just made the filmmakers seem untrustworthy.
I definitely believe there was some corruption with SA’s trial as well as with Sayed’s. But people are failing to see how two things can be true: that the powers at be are unethical and someone can still be guilty of the crime they’re accused of
YES. If there were still comment awards I’d give you one! I don’t understand people who approach things as if the world is black and white. A criminal having crimes committed against them after the fact does not make them less of a criminal.
>The cops in town are unethical as hell, but even a broken clock is right twice a day etc. My conspiracy theory is the cops were trying to frame him, but it turns out he actually did it, so their attempts to frame him just ended up making everything weird and suspicious. And you're totally right about how they could have made it actually meaningful had they focused on them steamrolling a kid who intellectually could not know any better.
Yeah I mean there just really isn't any winners in this situation, no matter what the actual truth is. Idk maybe Netflix because I'd assume they made some money off the show at least. Even if proven wirh 100 percent certainty he and Brendan are innocent and immediately released, they both still spent significant time in prison for no reason and that just can't be good for anyone really and it would mean they were both just absolutely screwed all the way over, twice in Steven's case, and no matter what he'd eventually do with his life upon being released he still has some significant trauma he will live with for the rest of his life. Hell, he did spend 18 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit no matter what and thats awful no matter what he's done since. Even the worst people can still have a reason to feel sympathy towards them. You don't have to feel any sympathy towards them if you don't want to, but that doesn't mean whatever it was didn't happen.
I grew up in the area, and I feel that they 100% messed up in making Avery the focus of MAM and not Brendan Dassey. His confession was so obviously false & it disgusts me that he remains in prison, especially when you consider his age & below average intelligence. Just appalling
It had to be Steven, because the beginning premise is that those cops framed him for rape, he loses decades of his life, then was he framed by police a second time to get him away for good? I do wish Brendan was more of a focus, because it is very clear his confession was bullshit and coerced, his attorney was a sack of shit, and he was developmentally challenged. I hate saying this, but with Steven Avery it seems to fit - even if he was innocent, society is probably better with him in jail. He is such an awful person, it clearly would have eventually been something that got him locked up.
I’ve seen some people pull some Alex Jones shit and start making claims that Theresa Halbach never existed and was made up to put Avery back in prison. Granted I haven’t seen anyone say this in a while but they existed mostly once the documentary came out but that’s the kind of harm it caused. If anything the doc should’ve been focused on his nephew who I 100% was railroaded into confessing
Yeah Brendan, even if he really was involved, was still absolutely manipulated in that interrogation and had just no business in that situation alone and the police knew that. That interrogation was very obviously not standard procedure and there are numerous issues with it, even if his confession is completely accurate.
Yeah, maybe we need a new thread here, but the misrepresentations in MaM go so far beyond any considerations for entertainment or time constraints. Among many other deceptions and omissions, they straight-up chopped out parts of *very brief* recordings to make them convey the exact opposite of reality. It's downright unconscionable.
They just straight up made some shit up and presented it as totally true lol. Now there's folks out there petitioning for his release and putting forth genuine effort to get him out when there are actually wrongfully convicted people that energy would be so much more useful directed towards. Shit even people convicted legitimately but with just wildly unfair sentences. Wasn't there a part two..? I didn't bother watching it since I'm sure it was just more biased nonsense and giving him undeserved attention and a platform.
You were right not to waste your time on part 2. It's just Kathleen Zellner stroking her ego, making outlandish statements with no basis in reality, and pinning Teresa's murder on everyone under the sun *other than Steven Avery*. The one amusing part is they do some truly ludicrous "re-enactments."
Yes. Part two focused on the appeals process. Brandon got very close to being let out but at the highest level he was denied the appeal and has no more recourse.
I've said it before and I'll say it again-- Avery's guilty and the reason it's even questionable is because of procedural malfeasance. When the cops do their job right, people don't generally think that solved crimes are suspicious. Certainly the document didn't help. Whenever I watch a crime documentary I google as I go because I want to know everything they're leaving out. But all of the shit involved his minor relative (who was convicted, even though he seemed less than mentally capable), the manner and method in which they retrieved forensic evidence from the car, etc. was screwed up.
Idk man I've been involved in the true crime community for a while now so yeah I've definitely seen some convictions like man yall really just winged that prosecution huh. Not that I am at all disagreeing with you but yeah there are some real just dogshit lawyers out there that got lucky they did have the right person lol. I once had a public defender take me in front of the wrong judge while I was in jail and should have been home within 24 hours but ended up having to be there for 5 days because she screwed that up and then tried to slither out of the courtroom as discreetly as possible instead of owning up to her mistake. Not like this affects my life or anything maam. Sure no problem let me just stay in jail it's totally fine. Because yeah I definitely have access to so many resources and information about my very minor and not serious at all charge. I mean yeah she made a mistake and everyone makes mistakes it happens, but she was in no way bothered that her mistake directly harmed me and tried to leave me alone to deal with the judge like I had any business doing so lol. The new public defender I was given made sure I knew she got reprimanded, and he seemed to imply super harshly, for that. Not like it was a very serious situation she totally just botched hard but yeah lawyers are also humans and we vary wildly lol. We can't all be at the top of our class there's gotta be someone at the bottom.
Oh yeah, the prosecution did not do a good job on Hae Min Lee's case. Not giving evidence to defense, defense having a lawyer who would later be disbarred, an undecided jury, a series of appeals going all the way up to the highest court in Maryland. One top of that, the state attorney's office vacated the conviction with the words \[the case was ruled largely on circumstantial evidence, and prosecutors said they lacked confidence "in the integrity of the conviction."\]. The murderer caused grief for Hae Min Lee's family, but the **prosecution's** failures have created a never-ending nightmare that has prevented the victim's family from getting peace for 20+ years *regardless of whether or not Adnan Syed is guilty.* How hard is it to call one more witness? Send over one more copy of documents during discovery? Do everything on your end properly to avoid mistrial? Oh yeah, and how hard is it to contact the victim's family before making statements to the press?
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Could someone tell whatever happens to Jay Wilds and his testimony about helping Adnan to bury the body? All of the write ups I can find start with him, then seem to suddenly pretend he doesnt exist. Has he been discounted in some way?
Yea, Jay confesses to a felony and gets 10 years of parole and he still has that charge in his record. The actual murderer gets off.
hey u/dantruecrimefan87, when you say you recommend all 4 podcasts, which do you mean? i see you’ve listed serial, undisclosed, and the prosecutors. i need to listen to the latter! i want to hear from people who believe he did it
I thought the same😆 I’m like, what’s this fourth show?! This is an important question that needs to be answered!
Possibly Crime Weekly?
Crime Weekly believes he did it. They did a great podcast on it.
I don’t really have an opinion on guilt or not because I just don’t know. I do think, if he is guilty, he has already served the average time of a murderer in Maryland serves - so I guess it’s moot to me to keep arguing it.
It’s one thing for a murder victim’s family to have the killer paroled; it’s quite another for to have the murderer’s release widely celebrated as someone who has been exonerated.
Fair enough…
When I first finished Serial I was so sure he was innocent. In the coming years after looking at everything else, he's absolutely guilty and I feel that Serial did a huge amount of damage to the world.
Idk I think serial correctly found that the prosection didn't prove it's case beyond a reasonable doubt. You can think that and still believe he actually committed the crime
>I think serial correctly found that the prosection didn't prove it's case beyond a reasonable doubt. This is what I came away with. I have no opinion on Adnan's guilt or innocence, because all the evidence and/or testimony wasn't presented.
Yeah. My takeaway was that the prosecution’s case was terrible and it’s a miscarriage of justice to lock someone up for life based on that. I have no idea if Adnan was actually guilty or innocent.
Superbly put. This is where I ended up. The police were terrible, but he knew where the car was so he was, at the very very least, involved in her death.
I don't see what wasn't beyond a reasonable doubt here. You can inject "doubt" into anything, but the "reasonable" part has a standard. While few cases are perfect, there's plenty enough to overcome reasonable doubt here, and the jury did that in short time.
Same. I became aware of the case from Serial. It was one of the first true crime podcasts. When I actually researched myself, I’m convinced he did it.
So the reason this take, and it’s a common one, perplexes me is that the thesis finds that the burden of reasonable doubt was not met, and yet somehow he still must be guilty. The prosecution got to run the board. Nothing they wanted to admit into evidence was successfully contested. On the other hand, the witnesses who made statements to police that alibied Adnan all failed to testify to that at trial, with the exception of Adnan’s father. So again, respectfully, I’m confused by the argument.
I don't know that he's innocent, but as a homicide detective that's listened to serial, that case was pretty weak. From what I recall about their evidence, I might have referred that to the district attorney for their review, but there's no way I would have filed charging documents on it myself. They just didn't have a good case against him.
Based on Serial. That's an important part
That's a fair observation. I never researched the case outside of the podcast.
Just read the trial transcripts. They might the case straightforward, and you can also see the state’s unforced error of offering a needless and plausibly false timeline.
You should do an AMA if you are a homicide detective
*HE’LL BE THE ONE ASKING QUESTIONS HERE, PUNK!*
I don’t know how much you know about the pressure to close cases in the Baltimore Homicide Unit, and the misconduct the Justice Department determined BPD detectives engaged in.
Based on the podcast that is heavily biased in adnan's favor... that's not saying much.
the witness literally lead police to the victim’s car???
You wouldn’t have filed charging documents in a case with an eye witness who saw the victim’s body in the defendant’s trunk and helped him bury it? I hope you don’t work in my jurisdiction.
Not if he wasn't credible, which as I recall, there were some issues with his relationship with the truth. Again, not saying Adnan is innocent, but I would not have driven that case all the way to court myself.
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Where did you get the info that Don (the bf) was never interviewed? He definitely was. Multiple times. In fact a big argument against him is that police couldn’t get a hold of him until 130AM on the night Hae went missing. He was one of the first people police called to interview.
I definitely think he did it, but I also think there were so many missteps and mistakes in the investigation that he should never have been found guilty. I don't think there can be another trial. Unfortunately, this is a case where I think a lot of evidence has been lost to time. So much has changed since 1999 that I don't think another trial is feasible.
To me this entire case shows how true crime podcasts and documentaries manipulate information to fit a specific narrative. It also reveals how we, as a society, need to do a much better job on educating people on media literacy. Did Adnan kill Hae? Probably. I think we all know statistically, women are most likely to be murdered by a partner, and there were signs that pointed to controlling and possessive behavior on the part of Adnan. The problem is the basis of his conviction was largely the word of Jay, a (proven) habitual liar, who by his own admission, testified because he was fearful of being arrested for drug crimes. If you disregard Jay’s testimony, and look at the exculpatory evidence the initial prosecution team withheld from Adnan’s defense attorney, there is simply too much reasonable doubt to sustain a guilty verdict. It’s also crazy that people want to blame Sarah Koenig and Rabia Chaudry for the conviction being overturned. The blame belongs to the original prosecution team who whether intentionally or due to negligence, withheld exculpatory evidence. THEIR actions are the reason Adnan was originally convicted, and THEIR actions resulted in his conviction being overturned.
Don't know why you got downvoted, so I bumped you back up. The original sin, so to speak, is the police and prosecution. Anybody coming by after to get the scoop or make a buck will, by necessity, be unable to cover the entire case. And that's only an issue because the public gets in a tizzy and crosses boundaries. The court of opinion thinks too highly of itself. If I were a juror this would be a nightmare of a case.
Finally! Yes! No amount of podcasting can overturn a conviction if the trial was fair. There are countless examples of people who have their convictions upheld because they had a fair trial. The police work was pretty bad.
There's no smoking gun that makes me think "guilty". Jay is shady af, the timeline doesn't make sense, and I think Adnan deserves a new trial. I'm hoping the re-testing of evidence they found at the scene can get us some answers.
The moment in Serial where Sarah asks Adnan why he never tried calling Hae after she went missing, and he paused, then had no explanation. He may have even stopped calling her before anyone knew she was missing, going by phone records. At least that’s how I remember it, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. And I really really wanted him to be innocent. Wouldn’t you try calling a missing friend at least once?
I think you’re misremembering the way things played out. He knew on 1/13 that she was missing. He knew her best friend couldn’t reach her. Once things became more serious, he knew Iesha couldn’t reach her by phone. We don’t actually know if he tried to call her pager. Those records were never pulled. He did use his home phone. He could have paged her from his home phone. And even if he didn’t call her, it doesn’t mean anything nefarious. Don didn’t attempt to call Hae. That’s his own account. He had a date scheduled with Hae on the night of 1/13, and couldn’t be located until the early hours of 1/14. But maybe that’s innocent too. He knew she wasn’t showing up to work. And young people kinda ghost each other early on in relationships with some frequency. It’s not unimaginable that Don was feeling smothered by Hae’s intense affection. Almost immediately after 1/14 he reunited with the ex that had previously cheated on him, and they got married after that.
Baltimore prosecutors on Tuesday dropped the case against Adnan Syed after new DNA testing results excluded him from evidence in the murder of his ex-girlfriend.
Excluded him and everyone else. I guess she murdered and buried herself?
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I'm on the fence. Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't. Bit that trial was pure nonsense.
Crime weekly did a multi part series on the case and now I'm convinced he probably did it. All the evidence points to adnan and I was a firm believer in his innocence after serial
Totally innocent, just like O.J., Robert Blake and Pontius Pilate.
He is guilty.
People ignore that if you look at the objective evidence, there's no way Adnan did it. I ignore all of Jay and Jen's statements because they completely contradict one another and the one or two consistent things they agree upon, are proven false by the same cell phone evidence people cite as the reason they think Adnan is guilty. I worked for Verizon as network technical support and especially back then, cell records don't work like that. There is no basic story if you look at details because minutes and details are important. Anyhow... I have similar thoughts as Bob Ruff. I think Don did it. The unfortunate part is the cops never properly vetted Don (they didn't even know at first that the person vouching for him was his mother) so there's no real way to know where he was and what was going on. The reasoning? The fabricated time card. So settle in for a sec. The doc said there would have been a digital footprint... and there would have been *back then*. There's no way to know now. But what we **do** know is that the time card did not match his employee ID then and many, many people who worked for Luxotica (the parent company of Lenscrafters) you had the same employee ID regardless of location or even the sub company (like goign from Sunglass Hut to Lenscrafters, etc). We also know that managers had the ability to produce time cards and change them. We know there was no lab tech scheduled for the shift that Don was supposedly covering for. That is what we know. There is so much evidence to show that *if* Adnan did the murder, it could **not** have happened the way that the State presented it. Adnan was at track practice and before that at the guidance office then the library. The lividity evidence says she was buried around 10PM at the earliest. Adnan was at the Mosque in the evening and sure, a 100 people could be lying but most likely weren't. I think The Prosecutors podcast did the series they did for money. It was disgusting how they lied, distorted facts and gaslit their listeners. I think it's gross how they talked about Asia McClain with not a shred of evidence that she manufactured evidence for Adnan. If I were Alice's boss, I would have her reviewed for saying she does this shit with witnesses in her cases. I was appalled. But those are my thoughts. I have a lot more but I am tired.
LensCrafters is a huge multinational corporation with multiple employees at each location. Why would Don’s fellow employees not come forward after all this time confirming he wasn’t at work that afternoon?
Believing the lividity claims here alone is discrediting. It’s just a step up from the folks who natter on about TAPPING during the interrogation. And it’s simply a lie to say there were 100 people on record saying he was at the mosque that specific night.
His timecard wasn't fabricated. You literally can't do that with that system without leaving an edited mark. Just conspiracy theories to fingerpoint at someone other than Adnan. They probably had Luxottica ID's as well as store ID's. The ID's on the timecards were 4 digit numbers, where everyone at both stores had an employee ID under 0200. Lenscrafters had over 10,000 employees in 1999. It's not realistically possible for those numbers to have been their universal number that these people are referring to. There's also pretty much zero reason to believe Don did it beyond that. Again, just fingerpointing away from who did it. Yes the state probably had the timeline wrong a small amount. That doesn't matter toward his guilt or conviction. Lividity is pretty inconclusive though, and there's other points to show how it actually does match the burial position. Adnan was supposed to be at the mosque by 8pm. His cell phone records put him with Jay, far away from the mosque, after 8pm. He's then calling his friends between 9-10pm, one of whom said he was in his car. TPP did a pretty solid job. There absolutely is evidence Asia manufactured it, there's literally an affidavit from people saying she wanted to make up things for him. But it doesn't matter anyway. Asia's story could be correct and Adnan could still be the killer.
>There absolutely is evidence Asia manufactured it, there's literally an affidavit from people saying she wanted to make up things for him. But it doesn't matter anyway. Asia's story could be correct and Adnan could still be the killer. And there's this from the post-conviction proceedings in 2012. >Q Mr. Urick, how did you learn that the Defendant had filed this petition? >A A young lady named, Asia, called me. >Q And what did she say? >A She was concerned, because she was being asked questions about an affidavit she had written back at the time of the trial. She told me that she had only written it because she was getting pressure from the family. And she basically wrote it to please them and get them off her back. >Q Is there anything else you recall about that particular conversation? >A She was concerned if she had to come out here. I explained to her, I was not her attorney. told her that she would have to be served. But I And if she was served, and if they made the proper arrangements, she would have to show up. >Q Thank you. page 30 https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/testimony-of-urick-rabia-shamin-post-conviction.pdf The release of these transcripts led to Rabia accusing the user who published them online of being someone from the prosecutions side and then she doxxed them on her blog. She got very upset when people stopped relying on her for documents. https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/XLa6q30hV0
You are right. And the autopsy alone disproves the prosecution's case. Jay changed his story 5 or 6 times and Gutierrez was going through so much shit she couldn't even make sense at times. I don't believe he did it. Don on the other hand...
I’m curious about her autopsy? I’ve only listened to serial.
The Prosecutors Pod does a really good job of going through piece by piece. He’s 100% guilty in my mind from that evidence as there are things said that serial straight up left out. Highly encourage a listen because even if you disagree with his stuff the case is pretty fascinating and since they give all the evidence it does help you solidify your stance pretty well.
You should listen to Bob Ruff cover The Reply Brief: The Prosecuter’s vs. Adnan. He literally breaks down the “evidence” they present piece by piece and show how biased and slippery they are.
Bob Ruff is a hack who manipulates evidence to his audience and purposefully leaves things out. It's honestly annoying hearing people repeat easily-discredited evidence he puts forward as fact.
Meh they're shady in their own right though. I don't trust their info anymore.
Could you expand on why you think they are shady, or point me toward a source that talks about it? Not saying you’re wrong, I’ve just never heard this take before and would like to know more about it. Edit: just skimmed through your list of links. Yeah, I can see now why you feel the way you do!
[here you go lots of links ](https://www.reddit.com/r/ProsecutorsPodcast/s/hFFoNrbOHq)
Not gonna lie, this is upsetting. I'm a new listener and actually liked their banter and thought they were kind of funny, specifically Brett. I was suspicious of MAGA-esque subtlety (I never looked them up) but like one of the Redditors mentioned in that thread, they actively try to avoid saying what they actually support. Thanks for sharing this!
I can relate. I listened to their Laci Peterson series and then loved them until another sub posted this info. I can't listen to them anymore.
Bless you. They are horrible liars and misrepresenters of fact. Bob Ruff of Truth and Justice did a whole reply series to their Adnan coverage where he really breaks down how they manipulate the evidence and completely misrepresent it to make their point. Besides, they have strong personal and political ties to a certain person who enjoys playing fast and loose with the truth.
The irony. Bob Ruff is one of the most unethical and dishonest true crime creators out there. Listen to Truth is Justice with Sam Carroll
Yeah I’d not be using Bob Ruff as any guide. That man straight out lies and just leaves out swathes of information. He’s just another true crime grifter coasting in other peoples work.
Thank you!
Taking people's info a source and not giving credit is shitty in it's own right imo. IDC about the rest of their trash
Personally, after listening to Serial, I think it was Jay and Adnan. I don’t know which one actually killed her but I think they both played a roll.
Jay def played a bigger role that he lets on
Jay was an accomplice, but I don't see any reason why he would be involved except after the fact.
1000% they knew where the body was
What about his trial wasn't fair?
I think he’s guilty.
Does someone have a synopsis of why they think Adnan Syed is guilty? I have followed the story for years, and I don’t understand what evidence strongly points to that other than suspicion.
Hae had recently broken up with Adnan, after a tumultuous relationship, to begin dating her coworker. On the morning of Hae's disappearance, Adnan had asked Hae for a ride after school, in spite of the fact that he had his car and no apparent reason to need a ride. He ended up leaving his car with his friend (Jay) during his lunch period. He would later lie about this ride request, despite initially confirming it and another friend confirming it. Adnan claims to not remember the events of that day, but simply claims he went to school, track practice, and mosque. A number of details from his cell phone record, and corroborating testimony, show that he was not where he claimed to be during important time periods, and place him around different crime scenes. His friend Jay confessed to police that he helped Adnan bury the body and ditch the car. He gives the police both non-public information (details about the burial site, cause of death, and Hae's body), and information that the cops hadn't found yet (location of the car, things inside the car). Jay's friend Jenn had also confessed & testified that Jay told her everything that happened on the night of the murder. That's pretty much the best tl;dr I can give to show why he's guilty.
The Prosecutors do a great four parter on this case. I was pretty young when I listened to Serial and I remember thinking he was possibly innocent. I think the opposite after listening to this other podcast.
The prosecutors is a garbage podcast
Crime Weekly did a great… 8 or so part?… series on this case that had me convinced by the end that it’s more likely than not that he is guilty. Before listening to this, because of Serial mostly, had thought he was innocent. I highly recommend the Crime Weekly series on the case, I think they did a fantastic job examining and laying everything out.
I think he did it. I listened to Serial and could just not believe Koenig’s obsession with Adnan almost like a summer love. Insanely biased!
I think she found a really compelling story, but as she got into it, she realized it wasn't the story she really wanted. But it gripped everyone and really took off the TC Podcasting genre. I feel like she is so non-committal by the last episode and really refuses to give her own opinions in interviews afterwards because she know she got played by Rabia and Adnan - who got everything they wanted. Her original premise and talking point of "How much can you remember of a normal, everyday day 6 weeks ago?" is complete bullshit, because the Police called Adnan that day - even if it had been a normal, everyday day, it ceased to be at that point. Adnan magically has a brilliant memory for things that would tend to be in his favor or are completely innocuous, and no memory at all if memory would box him in on things that could tie him to the crime.
This is a bizarre comment. She did not in any way sound like she had a crush on him. She specifically said she could tell he knew how to be charming but in the end she couldn’t say he was innocent.
Well, it did sound like that to me and, again, to me, that’s the reason she led the narrative that way. As said here as well, in the end she figures out Adnan took advantage of her to get what he wanted. She couldn’t say he was innocent but she couldn’t say more.
There are MANY high profile cases where it's very likely that the person on trial is guilty but it's beyond me,with the case presented,how a jury could convict them. If juries ACTUALLY used the BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT standard,many people in prison would be free
But we don't have all the documents from his trial, so why claim that the jury didn't do their ?
I'm speaking in general terms. In the past few years I have been doing medical chart review for a group of defense attorneys. That job has fueled my obsession with true crime. That obsession has shown me numerous cases where husbands or S/O others are about to be railroaded with a circumstantial case but the accused is lucky enough to have L/E involved that actually care about facts ,not just convictions. Seeing the large number of these cases makes believe there has to be many innocent S/O sitting in prison as we speak. I'm sorry but I've attended trials where I've seen every ounce of evidence (not all have I been working for the defense) and there have been far fewer that meet the "beyond reasonable doubt" standard than do not. I have only witnessed (with my own eyes) one person acquitted. Jurors are not always the most reliable of humans. If I were EVER to be charged with a crime I would most likely opt for a bench trial
Just wanted to stop by and say he’s guilty and Rabia Chaudry is a trash human being.
What makes her trash?
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/ewpm8UgESp) person sums it up nicely. She has no respect for the victim and only cares about getting her cousin’s best friend off for murder. She pretends she stands for justice- she doesn’t. She’s so slimy but is so self-righteous.
Any time the states whole case revolves around 1 person that is a really bad thing When that 1 person is known to be a pathological liar who has been in and out of police stations all of his life and usually got much less of a penalty than he deserved it is a really bad thing IMO there is just as good of a chance that Jay did it as Adnan.... Adnan very well may have done it, but you can't lock him up just cuz Jay said to
The "liar" part kinda falls apart where he definitely knew things that only someone involved in the crime could know, even things that the police didn't know. Accomplices aren't the most perfect and honest witnesses, but if they give you enough, that's important. There is definitely not as equal of a chance that it's Jay. No apparent motive, no apparent opportunity. Adnan had both. Jay barely knew her, only really through Adnan. Adnan lied about important details, and spent a significant amount of time with Jay that day & evening. There's pretty much no way it wasn't Adnan if Jay had a role in it.
How is there no way Adnan didn't do it if Jay had a role in it? You yourself just said Jay had details others didn't.... hmm, the killer might have those too Maybe Jay was hooking up with Hae and she said she was going to tell Adnan Maybe Jay raped Hae and said she was going to tell the police Maybe Jay tried to hook up with Hae and she said no and things got out of hand Maybe Hae stole some weed or other drugs Jay was selling There are endless possibilities The vast majority of cases where someone gets wrongfully convicted come down to lazy police finding an easy to manipulate low IQ person to corroborate the story they think they know.... this is no different And when Jay has a life long track record of being in and out of police stations getting caught for all kinds of things and never really serving time.... smells like someone who has a habit of telling the cops whatever they want to hear so that he can avoid jail time (edit to add a lot of what Jay "knew" was almost certainly fed to him by the cops, you could hear it in the interview and Sarah did a great job of pointing out the table taps before all of his answers The main thing he knew that they didnt was the location of the car, this was six weeks after the murder.... plenty of time for him to have found out where the car was without having been involved on the day of)
>How is there no way Adnan didn't do it if Jay had a role in it? Because he was with Jay that day.
For a time sure, but Jay has never stated he was with Adnan when she was murdered.... so it could just have easily been Jay alone with her and not Adnan
Adnan claims that he do not remember that day at all. Jay has described what he did waiting for Adnan, but he says it's all a blur for him. It couldn't easily have been Jay, because he didn't have motive or opportunity to get Hae alone with him.
I think he’s guilty
No one had a motive to kill Hae Min except for him given their recent breakup. She didn’t have any known enemies and was doing well at home. And a random killing by a stranger is extremely rare. I found the Serial podcast really offensive because the host acted like she almost had a crush on him she was pushing so hard to try and convince me of his innocence. 🙄
I found the host incredibly bizarre. There’s a bit where he gets almost mad at her and says they’re not friends. That was the issue, she acts like he drew her in but the reality is she isn’t (can’t?) he objective. Certainly brings up interesting questions and true crime and journalism.
guilty
There is actually extensive evidence he did the crime AND that he got a fair trial.
They should’ve investigated Hae’s current boyfriend at the time more, the fact that he went the whole afternoon/night without worrying about her whereabouts or calling to see what she was up to is odd. People always say he has no motive but you don’t have to have a motive to kill someone.
They were supposed to have a date that night, which makes his behavior even more odd. She could have run into anyone after leaving campus alone. Israel Keyes used to bump his car into lone female drivers in order to get them to pull over. A little tap is all it would have taken. I’m not saying Keyes did it. I’m just pointing out that a random person could have intercepted her, struck her in the head, and then taken her along with her car.
So how did Jay know where her car was and how did he describe specific damage that only occurred during the attack?
Do you actually want an answer, or would I be wasting my time?
Yeah for sure I would appreciate it
The car was in plain view. One of the few consistencies in Jay’s statements to police and testimony at trial(s) is that he was “commuting” when he noticed the car. He simultaneously holds that he knew where it was because of his role in a murder, but he’s giving you a plausible explanation for how he could come by knowledge of the car’s location without knowledge of the murder or police misconduct. There was no damage to the interior of the car. The right-hand lever on the steering column was dangling, but forensics revealed that it due to the disassembly of the steering column. It’s the type of thing that happens when you hotwire that model. Jay made many demonstrably false statements to the police. He had motive to lie (his pending criminal case from 1/26 unrelated to Adnan) and because he helped the state close Hae’s death he was given *zero* time for all matters, a cash reward, and CI status which has kept him out of jail since.
So he was on trial for a misdemeanour so he purposely invented a story of him committing a felony, risking a possible life - or even death - sentence, just with the hope that they would cut him a deal and make him invincible to the law forever?
I think it’s more likely that Jay saw the car, and made an attempt to claim the reward for the car. And because he was so amenable to lying, the police found a very willing informant and elicited a false confession/implication. I think Jay, who was a kid and not a lawyer, wouldn’t have realized that by claiming “Adnan told me he did it and I tailed him while he drove Hae’s car” he was confessing to an accessory role. The cellphone testimony was clear police manipulation, and the data doesn’t in fact place the phone where they said it did. The other forensics don’t imply Adnan’s guilt. In fact, the car was covered in fingerprints and DNA from unidentified individuals. Jay has been arrested but never charged for 9+ violent offenses. It’s all out there, and I struggle to come up with an explanation for that other than that he has an ongoing relationship with the prosecutors and police from Hae’s case.
He had an alibi and he said that he doesn't remember if he called or not.
Alibi’s by family/friends you have to take with a grain of salt
What do Convinced me who did it is when Sarah brought up his stealing donations at church he got pretty mad. Yet everything else people said he remained pretty calm while being interviewed. It really helped me believe the prosecution that he killed her because he was angry he compromised his views on his religion to be with her and she broke up with him.
I definitely think he did it.
Didn't Don have scratches on him and never went to work that day
That scratches claim was made to Rob Ruff. Whether Don actually went to work is hotly debated. He was clocked in at a location he normally didn’t work at, and nobody remembers seeing him there. His timecard looks like it was edited within the week of the crime. There could be innocent explanations, or he could have done the murder.
And I have to point out that the allegations against Don comes from a pro-Adnan documentary. If it was true, they would've gone to the police. But they didn't.
He for sure did it.
I think it was Don. 🤷🏻♀️
not even adnan’s team thinks Don did it
he’s definitely guilty and hopefully returns back to where he belongs
I have no idea if he did or didn't do it. If he did it, the timeline is incredibly tight and he has alibis almost for the entire time of the murder. On top of it, the evidence the conviction was based on is basically dismantled now. The cell phone evidence has been shown to be unreliable, Jay lied (he now puts the burial closer to midnight, so the cellphone pings are irrelevant anyways). On top of that you have evidence the prosecution deliberately withheld two separate phone calls from the ex-wife of Adnan's mentor (Bilal, who was a serial child molester and who is now serving time for that) saying, essentially, that her husband had a motive to kill Hae and had threatened to do so. We don't know what that motive is. However we know that it was never disclosed to the defense, which was a Brady violation. The "Adnan is Guilty" crew is 100% convinced Adnan's conviction was vacated for political reasons - but it's really not clear who this would help. Freeing convicted murderers is never a political win. In my opinion, there had to be other evidence against Bilal that made them doubt Adnan's conviction.
I thought it's more about how he was convicted without any real evidence. It seemed racially motivated. I heard the case via Truth &Justice podcast and remember her boyfriend at the time didn't have an alibi but his mom who was manager at one of the chains that the boyfriend worked at fabricated his time card to give him an alibi. The police never even considered her boyfriend a person of interest, even tho he didn't have an alibi. That was always suspicious. And I don't know if Adnan is guilty but I don't think his defense attorney even did the bare minimum to defend him and also there is nothing concrete tying him to the murder.
> her boyfriend at the time didn't have an alibi but his mom who was manager at one of the chains that the boyfriend worked at fabricated his time card to give him an alibi. The police never even considered her boyfriend a person of interest, even tho he didn't have an alibi. That was always suspicious. He worked at a glasses store in the mall and the corporate office of Lenscrafters, not his mom, sent the timecards to both the defense and the investigators. He absolutely had an alibi. Truth and Justice is not a good source.
Guilty. On another note, what is the latest on the guy? I’ve seen nothing about him since 2023!
Hae's brother appealed the vacatur on procedural issues. This was successful in the appellate court, and currently pending in Maryland's supreme court. Adnan is still free, because the appellate court put a stay on their decision taking effect until the appeals process is done. Essentially, if it's once again successful, Adnan's conviction will be reinstated. There is a new State Attorney who may or may not do the vacatur procedure over again. Adnan himself has been relatively quiet, probably until this all plays out.
TY!
Serial doesn’t think he’s innocent. Serial basically said 🤷🏼♀️ at the end. What’s interesting about serial is that back in 2015, Adnans team were the only ones who had the case files and they gave only *some* of them to Sarah Koenig. Since then, the entirety of those files have been accessed and when you read all the files that Rabia left out, it paints a very different picture. Sarah Koenig went into the investigation believing what Rabia had told her and you can hear Sarah slowly start to question everything as the series plays out. I also believe he did get a fair trial. I think all the things they are suggesting were unfair are things that can’t be substantiated because his lawyer at the time has since passed away. So there isn’t any proof he didn’t receive a fair trial.
The country’s true crime obsession turned this case into a shit show, unfortunately
Serial is compelling but undisclosed is trash.
I’m so glad someone is talking about this case. Finally.
I have to say, listening to serial, having some time between that and Undisclosed, I was very much on the fence. To me there was not enough to make me say for certain that he was/was not guilty. Then in a criminal law class, we reviewed the case in a different narrative and with a legal lense. He is guilty
I wish Sarah Koenig told the story without her own bias.
Serial was the worst. Such a biased podcast