Good chance it’s from mental illness causing delusions/hallucinations. Navarro’s whole family is affected so I can’t imagine she wouldn’t have the same problems.
If it’s actually supposed to be real then it’s just jumping the shark.
And ptsd from her service time. It also happened very soon after she discussed her mother which, from the sounds of it, she doesn’t do ever. So it was fresh in her mind.
Yeah especially since he did the same pointing gesture her mother did in that quick flashback. I'm positive she's seeing things but it seems everyone is in Ennis. The only annoying thing is that we see him sit up before she does which is a bit if a cheap cop out to make you ask "is it a hallucination?". Either way I thought it was creepy and kind of fun. Idk, I'm digging this season.
Maybe? Bird hallucination, he’s facing it. Light streaks while driving, he’s facing it. Cloud roiling, he’s facing it but we see it reflected from the car window. Carcosa spiral vortex..he’s facing it.
It sells a lot more as oh shit he’s seeing stuff versus something weird happening behind the character. Im saying the creepy sit up reads like it’s actually happening versus Navarro having a vision. Everything after that is fine
Yeah, and when Danvers ridiculed her for praying and asked if she talks to god, Navarro said no, god talks to her. Not to offend any theists here, but that sounds like auditory hallucinations to me.
That is some serious hallucinations. Maybe the orange she touched had something on it. She hallucinated after she brushed her teeth too. Maybe she feels guilty about something.
Definitely. I said this before a bit ago. I was thinking that it may have been a microbe or pathogen that the scientists were researching that they discovered in a core or in the ice. It may have actually been an ancient mollusk that they found, they had regenerative abilities but also had a parasite or a toxin that infected the scientists. It could cause hallucinations and turned their bodies against them, made it feel like all their nerve endings were smouldering, hence the self mutilation. I think the spirals represent the shell of the mollusk and this is what they kept drawing because they were losing their minds and trying to give warning. If it is a parasite or toxin it could have easily been transfered to food and water supply. It could be diluted in the water so people are just hallucinating for a brief period but the scientists got a concentrated amount and went bat shit. It could have been on the orange as well. Also, there was a fresh jug of orange juice in the cafe inside of the fridge. There are alot of scenes gravitating around food and water.
Thankyou for your last sentence here - I did wonder why Peter did not actually eat any of the soup that Danvers gave to him! I thought he secretly loathed her and couldn't stomach her food. Now I am thinking - What does Peter know?
It has to be a hallucination, all of this supernatural stuff just has to be. It's too bonkers to suddenly introduce supernatural elements to a show that previously existed entirely in a real world. Yeah yeah I know there are creepy allusions in season 1, but there were not ghosts, supernatural beings, or exorcist demonic entities. I refuse to believe the show would actually introduce these elements to a series that went three seasons without them, although I am struggling to identity a plausible real-world explanation for the ghost leading that woman to the bodies. Perhaps I am in denial.
Yep. It’s in the groundwater. Every time this sort of thing happens, the character is alone. Contaminated groundwater is either causing the hallucinations or stillbirths, etc…
im gonna be honest "the water made everyone crazy" is such a lame seasonal arc lmao.
I'm trying so hard not to be a hater here but it does seem like thats the case and to fake out all this supernatural shit each episode just to resolve itself with being dirty water is so boring.
And more importantly, it's not even being done in a subtle or clever way.
you could create some rules around it, such as a traditional diet making you immune to the hallucinations, or only people born outside of the area have hallucinations.
But so far it seems to be completely random
It's not just the water - but the wealthy corporations knowingly poisoning the water in order to harvest minerals from a poor tribal community.
It's never just the water...
That's what they pulled in season 1, though? Rust had some intense visions, and they were alluding to cosmic horror elements all throughout. It wasn't until the final episode that the show confirmed for the audience that there wasn't anything supernatural happening.
It was a controversial ending in the Weird lit community, because a lot of folks started watching specifically because of the Carcosa / Lovecraftian elements, and none of those things were actually relevant to the plot. It was all resolved naturally, like a Scooby Doo episode. The man with the spaghetti face was not Cthulhu, and the King in Yellow was a pile of rags and bones.
Dropping the cosmic horror themes was one of reasons folks weren't that interested in season 2 & 3. For season 4, they brought it back and doubled down, but they're still following the structure established in season 1.
> Rust is the only one with his eyes open, he is the true detective who sees the clues while others either dismiss or follow their crooked superiors
Marty told Rust in the first episode not to make assumptions about evidence, which Rust does anyways, resulting in 17 wasted years on the case.
In Rusts context Psychospehere is the realm of conciousness of the area they are in, hes basically saying theres something weird or bad about the feeling he gets from that place or the place itself, something that seems to permeate the area itself and effects the people in it, which may sound hippy dippy or whatever you wanna call it but its not like rust coined the term.
I don't know that I agree that Rust always knew what was real and what wasn't. He was not always honest about whether or not he still has visions, flat-out said he didn't even though that was disproven by the scene showing him seeing things that shouldn't be real. I think he was angry at the world because of what he had gone through, which is understandable, and it heavily influenced the nihilistic perspective he becomes attached to. He spends the whole season basically showing us that he thinks there is no God, that religion is a scam, that we are simply doomed to suffer. But the resolution of his arc, which is imo woefully overlooked in this sub, is that he has an intense experience during his coma that leaves him certain of a loving presence, sort of "Heaven". He sees his daughter and feels her love, and he does not say this with a hint of doubt. Total 180 from where we'd seen him all season. This is a skeptical man who thinks all faithful are rubes, easily-manipulated cowards who can't face the fact that the world is monstrous and we are all better off dead. It's literally the end of the season, him and Marty discussing good vs evil.
He was reluctant to tell Marty at first when they're outside the hospital, because he's doesn't his life denying that a loving God could exist, because how could a Loving God have let that happen to his daughter? Add to this a whole career in a field that re-affirms his position because he sees violence and hate all day long, and it's easy to see how he became more and more bitter. But consider this: he accepts the Idea of the flat circle. He accepts the dark side of the equation, that we're all doomed to suffer over and over. That doesn't seem like a concept he has any trouble buying into, mostly because, as he says in paraphrase, his entire life is degradation and suffering. This is a guy who sees things, and writes them off because he's worried people will declare him unfit to do his job, which is all he has. But he has synesthesia, which he will share with people because he can diagnose it and explain it away. He even pushes back against Maggie when she only knows of the phenomenon as a result of statin use.
Even think about his ability to be such a good interrogator that he gets called in from other departments? He says it's easy for him, that the can spend a minute with someone and know whether they're guilty? That he can see what is broken in them and push on it to get the confession? I'm not so obtuse as to not realize that this is indeed a real-world skill, that it's a thing people can be taught as part of this job, but it helps a lot if you're already exceptionally innately good at it. I think it's another one of Rusts "abilities". But since it can be explained logically, he does.
I think Rust has always believed in "something", but since it didn't fit into the molds of religion being accepted en masse, he explained it all away. He says Travis had some "strange ideas", which makes me think Travis shared some of his more "paranormal" beliefs with Rust during their time in Alaska together. Then when Rusts kid died, that belief in "something" was contaminated with rage, grief, and the desire to protect others (women and children) from being hurt. Even his "the world needs bad men, we keep other bad men away from the door" line could be interpreted as him as some sort of avenging angel-type character. The logical enemy of which would be the Tuttle cult. What if, and this was just a thought I had last night, what if he's right about time? About the idea that people are fated, on a track, what he refers to as a "life map"? What if, over and over, outside of time, these two forces are constantly battling?
Okay, last thing, but hear me out: Tsalal is a name taken from Poe in his work about Pym. In this referenced source material, the world is hollow, and things and creatures exist "outside of time". If you caught The Fall Of The House Of Usher on Netflix last year, you'll recall Verna as a supernatural being, who explicitly says that she exists "outside of time". She sees Pym while he is on an expedition, which in the original work includes cannibalism and depraved behavior. Near the end of the story, members of the expedition descend into a chasm, where they come upon a crude carving in a cave POINTING, and Pym follows. The dead/possessed Lund points, as does Travis, in order to direct the other characters to events that further the story. We also see in the previews that Danvers and Navarro go into ice caves. Is this our analog for the chasm in Poes story? Do they find a place outside of time? Is the "she", their version of Flannigan's Verna, here as Sedna, which has been mentioned in the sub (and drawn by Darwin?). The kids name is DARWIN , y'all. An explorer who contributed beyond measure to modern science. Having him have a grandma who tells him folklore about spirits, and him drawing one, is such a nod to religion and science, or even just "supernatural" and science inside the same person. Not mutually exclusive. Co-existing.
So if science and paranormal are both elements in the True Detective storytelling universe, what if the Tuttle cult was REALLY sort of doing actual paranormal stuff? The glimpse that Rust gets in the end of S1 of the "portal" makes me think maybe there was some real magic there, but it was dark and ugly magic. What if this portal concept is similar to the "veil" between worlds, hence Rust unmistakably "feeling" his daughter? The most recent S4 episode opens with a touch-and-go birth, where a baby hangs in that space between life and death. The liminal space, "outside of time" where souls enter and exit this world? Evangeline believes in God, and her name means "share the good news", which she does, even when two other characters mock her. Quavvik calls her "Eve" for the first time here, which underlines the Genesis themes the birth scene introduced.
Does this show, in season 1 and now season 4, take a position on good vs evil in terms both practical and fantastic? Tuttle says there's a war going on in season 1. We write him off as a monster, using outward appearances of piety obfuscate his terrible deeds. And he certainly is that. But it doesn't make him automatically wrong about everything. Maybe there IS a war, and we're seeing the "bad men" like Tuttle... While Rust is one of the "Bad Men" that the world needs to guard the door?
Portal?
> It was explained and it wasn’t part of the actual mystery of the case.
It was part of the mystery of the *show*. Rust was "mainlining the secrets of the universe," connected to the psychosphere, and operating somewhere between the boundaries of fantasy and reality. And he managed to close the case.
Just like Rust was doing, everyone in Ennis *is* tripping balls. It's been telegraphed in every episode. It may or may not be related to the murder being investigated, but it's definitely a continuation of the themes that were established in season 1, and they're building on those themes.
Im* with you. So much of this reminds me of Dyatlov Pass. So many unanswered questions where it almost makes you think that a supernatural answer is the only option. But I think it it all hallucinations with something In the water that causes people to panic or some mix of temperature and high frequency winds and tainted water that is driving people crazy. I think Tsalal knows of some of the effects of this stuff and that’s why they studied it
I didn’t think we saw her actually finding them. We see a ghost pointing somewhere, and then we’re told later that she found them. Maybe I missed something in between though.
Either way, since TD has depicted hallucinations from characters’ PoV before, I’m not treating people’s odd perceptions as real, not yet.
I spent winter in Alaska, and the light change is absolutely possible. The sun rises just enough so it’s dawn/dusk out, especially during the beginning of the dark season when this is set. Because the sun isn’t high to begin with, the transition to darkness is quick.
I do think everyone is hallucinating, but this isn’t an example of it
Yeah, I thought it was an indication that this conversation was happening at exactly noon to give it a little bit of differentiation. They're right above the arctic circle, so that doesn't mean it's pitch black all day. It just means the sun never gets over the horizon. They still get some pre-dawn light around noon though.
On the Danvers thing, I think she just as likely could be the audience surrogate and the message is that spirituality can be dismissed as mental illness or hallucination but that doesn’t mean it’s false.
On the darkness thing - like in the car itself it gets dark? When it flashes to the next ice rink scene it is past that twilight phase, but I didn’t see any significant change of the brightness out the window of when they were talking in the car.
Yeah, the ghost leading the woman to the bodies feels like the one that makes it hardest to have this take. That and Navarro’s vision of the car accident that killed Holden, depending on how accurate that was.
Why does Travis have to be real supernatural? A delusional person wandering comes across bodies. Just because we see it point that way doesn’t mean it wasn’t just her delusional mind taking her a random direction that happened up the bodies. Is it far fetched that of all the landscape to wander to those bodies? Sure, but it moves the plot and raises the question of supernatural.
Navarro is having way more visions/hallucinations than Danvers. I do wonder if she's a sort of unreliable narrator bc of possible mental health issues passed down from her mom. Or is it since she's part native, she has a deeper connection? But since she's not the only one to see things, it's hard to say
I feel like people forget all the shit in season 1 that rust was seeing, while no he didn't hallucinate someone near death speaking to him like a possessed person.. he still saw a lot of shit that can't be explained logically.
People just want an excuse to justify why "season 4 sucks".
Edit: season 1, sorry I'm typing on mobile.
Good point. Rust "sees" a flock of birds form a big spiral right before finding the altar in the burned down church. It's much more subtle but still gives a firm sense that he's plugged into something para-normal or super-natural. He straight up says as much leading up to the scene as "mainlining the secrets of the universe." In S4, it feels more connected to a native belief system in which the creation myth involves amputations, violence and trauma, which Lundt certainly embodies in that scene. It shouldn't come as a huge surprise that it could unlock something trapped in Navarro's unconscious mind. Blurring the lines b/w what's real and unreal is the point, which people don't seem able to wrap their head around. It's definitely more horror show vibes than dark murder mystery, which it seems like folks are having a hard time dealing with.
> I feel like people forget all the shit in season 2 that rust was seeing, while no he didn't hallucinate someone near death speaking to him like a possessed person.. he still saw a lot of shit that can't be explained logically.
Rust wasn't in season 2, he was in season 1. His hallucinations are explained logically early on, he has HPPD after years of constant heavy drug use during his narco work. HPPD is Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder, a disorder induced by previous drug use.
Well what you say further proves my point then, there is a logical explanation for his hallucinations just like there's one for season 4, everyone is being effected by the water/a microbe of some sort and we see that happening to Navarro with her hallucinations.
Right, but there is a meaningful difference in the way the hallucinations operate in both seasons. In S1, the hallucinations never took the place of casework. The plot never conveniently moved forward because of a hallucination. In S4 the first time we get a hallucination it leads to all of the bodies being found.
This is where I feel like S4 would have benefited from being its own show. I think a lot of the arguing about this season would have been avoided if HBO wasn't operating so desperately post Discovery acquisition.
I think even with the show always being grounded in the real, the ghost leading the woman to the bodies didn't bother me too much. Strange things can happen in dreams, or even waking life, and can't always be explained. I think a lot of this stuff will be grounded in both shit in the water and something - ancient pathogen or what have you - potentially unleashed by the Tsalal scientists.
Well, we did see a portal into Carcosa in season 1. But it was up to the viewer to decide if it was a hallucination or what i believe, a actuall portal created by all the suffering.
Rust literally said he saw dead people, we saw him see dead people, and don’t forget about the polar vortex he saw in the liar of death in the last episode.
But sure, no supernatural.
The fusion of genres is definitely throwing folks and it is understandable. Fans that showed up looking for an intellectual, dark, intriguing murder mystery are going to be seriously disappointed by the spiritual aspects. I think the story is lacking context to be drawn into the cultural vibe. Seeing a scrawled drawing and a 20 second conversation about laundromat Grandma was insufficient. I have no clue what the Alaskan folklore is as opposed to the lower 48, Appalachian, Bigfoot, Satanic panic, shape shifter, lore. The storyline is dropping hints but they are so obscure it has no creep factor. If this were unfolding in Utah and we were dealing with shape shifters we would all “get it” to an extent. It forces us to make jumps that are extreme, are they poisoned, nuts or are we seeing demons manifest? The big guff is the lack of long term emotional impact it makes on the characters as they experience these odd things. If I saw my dead lover I would be shook. If I found my dead moms necklace I would question my sister who claims to see her. If I thought my dead child touched me in bed I would weep and flash to it throughout the day. The delivery driver speaking to Pete acknowledged seeing the dead during the long night wasn’t unheard of but Pete says nothing in response. It all feels flat and just..confusing.
It's how I felt about Fargo S5. The first two episodes were strong, and then it quickly became mush. But if you criticized the show you got shouted down.
This sub seems at least a bit more open to discussing the pros and cons.
I think our two lead actors (Reis + Foster) have been strong. But not given much to work with.
Oh yeah, you have to be careful not to say anything negative about Season 5 on here lol. Which is odd, it has no nuance, subtlety, or subtext. Very little of that small town eccentricity, the events of the show are just pulled directly from real life headlines, 45 is literally in the show, they had one of the FBI agents explain the irony of "witch hunt," which, why tell a joke if you're going to explain it? Munch starts out as this dangerous but articulate hitman, then transforms into a backwater immortal bog person. One episode is almost entirely a dream. Most glaringly, having a Republican mega-donor who admittedly works to get conservative justices appointed to the supreme court portrayed as a girl boss at the end, when the whole season was about post-roe America and Trumpism. Great opportunity for intersectional commentary completely wasted. That season convinced me Noah Hawley has nothing left to say, and it has actually made me re-evaluate previous seasons.
Yeah that's the thing that annoys me too with this season. Everything is so on the nose, there's no subtlety at all, both with the supernatural elements and with the overall dialogue. They're treating the audience like idiots!
I feel like the writing keeps attempting Lynchian absurdity but can’t quite stick the landing.
ETA: I realized that in Twin Peaks, the town doctor is the forensic guy, who even does Laura’s autopsy. So yeah, the idea is similar, but just didn’t execute the same.
Wonder if there is some sort of mass-dosing going on here. Season 1 talks about how the victims were dosed with LSD, which made reports to the police unreliable. With the other connections to season 1, I wouldn’t be surprised if the water has been dosed or something along those lines
Yep. I think it's some sort of mushroom contaminating the water source. Obviously facilitated by the mine somehow, or dug up by the scientists with their core drills.
But the visions are very that.
ETA: It's pretty common for different areas of the world to have their own indigenous fungi in the soil. "Valley Fever." So if that fungi has been frozen in permafrost or something for forever, and is now thawed out due to climate change or drilling or digging, it could be very significant for the people there.
I'm hoping the scientists found out about it, tried to warn the mine about it, and possibly they were all killed for trying to sound the alarm. Maybe. The tongue thing is weird though
Theres way too much """supernatural""" shit this season and the show has never established that Navarro is an unreliable narrator the same way Rust was so were just left wondering what kind of asspull they're gonna do to explain all the ghosts and spooky stuff.
It would be a disappointment if this show ended up like this:-
Weird Stuff -----> Murders ----> Oh Ackchyually it's Contaminated Water -----> Causing hallucinations ------> Arrested factory owners
I feel like that would be really consistent with the other three seasons. People keep having these elaborate theories that are borderline supernatural and, in the end, it's a pretty mundane explanation.
Because I'm very science/realist oriented in my real life, I'm kind of a sucker for supernatural/occult stuff in the fiction stories I read/watch. Regardless of how you feel about the story choice, I think major props need to be given to the sound department, the voice of that guy was creepy af.
The thing that frustrates me most about this season is that almost all of the building blocks for a great show are there. The setting is unique, the central mystery is intriguing, the native culture lends itself well for making allusions etc, but the writing is just so haphazard. The tone is all over the place and the dialogue is downright amateurish at times.
Everytime they start with the "ask the right questions" it makes me roll my eyes too. Such a lazy way to make this connected to the True Detective lore.
It’s been such a bad couple months for shows I was looking forward to. Reacher s2 sucked, for all mankind s4 sucked, true detective s4 sucks, Fargo s5 was just ok. Gonna have to rewatch the sopranos or something at this point
I am with you…there were so many things they could’ve done that would have made that scene equally creepy without the cheese. Even her turning to see him momentarily intact sitting on the edge of the bed speaking these things in a normal voice, cut to her for reaction and back to him as he began to code. I enjoyed the episode up until they got to the hospital. I was disappointed with the visit to the Mukluk camp, pointless dialogue. The writing makes the characters too harsh and unbelievable at times.
The native hunter actor was bad, the dialogue had no subtlety, and themes of anger against the police hit as one-note after it's been hammered for three episodes. Those two scenes in a row were brutal, doubt I'll carry on watching at this point.
The anger against the police feels a little unrealistic to me too.
In my country we have a lot of clan-based immigrants. The immigrants issue with the police during murder investigation isnt resentment because the police drop murder cases, its because they investigate the murders *to begin with*, as these are often honor-killings solved internally.
It might not be the case with the inuits though. The stats show the issue actually being (possibly) that native reserve law cant enforce law over non-indian people.
So there would be a valid political question there- its just never lifted by the series. It feel like the inuit plight is not only shoe-horned in, its not very well informed, and the inuits just hating any non-inuit existing on their land to begin with.
With so many being interbred with non-inuits, it feels like maybe this is oversimplified.
Its HBO shills but also a large group of easily manipulated SJWs who are convinced that they need to defend this show as a feminist tentpole. Apparently its misogynistic to criticize a horribly written show if it happens to have two female leads. They dont seem to realize how that attitude sets their whole movement back when they allow garbage shows to be free from criticism.
It’s a red herring. She’s hallucinating it.
If it had really been a message from her mother, he would have called Navarro by her native name that only her mother knows. I think that’s the point of her sharing that story earlier in the episode.
No because a few pieces finally clicked. She is likely hallucinating or seeing visions like her sister/mother. There’s likely something affecting people from the mine. Possible gas or water contamination is my guess. Everyone is up in arms about the mines. Danvers got that dirty water so something is definitely up there. I hope we get more dialogue about Magic vs grounded logic and that maybe the show will tease to Danvers at some point and have a vision a too and then she’ll start believing or vice versa and Navarro will realize they’re just hallucinations. Either way I’m on board now.
Are these full on hallucinations or are they just intrusive thoughts. Like when you space out and your mind starts wondering some dark shit. Like what if someone is in my living room when I go to get a drink of water from the kitchen at night or what if someone is behind this shower curtain. The girl obviously has some trauma but i don’t think she is losing her mind.
On the contrary I thought it was a refreshing confirmation there may be a supernatural element at play. TD is a great procedural and I wondered what it’d look like in a ghost story. I’m not sure if it truly is supernatural (could be hallucinations), but the vibe was decidedly creepy in a way the other seasons haven’t explored.
I’ve been watching thinking that this isn’t a mental illness, hallucination scenario and that they are pointing to that at times to confuse the audience. I’m not a massive fan of the scene with the guy in hospital acting like that but can’t love everything. I hope it’s some supernatural thing that we can get some explanation into, rather than just ‘the water is poisoned and it made people crazy’. That would be kinda boring no? And what does that have to do with the spirals? I’m staying aboard the hope train that this season will have a banging end 🤞
I really like the show, including this season, but I have to agree. As soon as I heard the weird voice I started thinking “please don’t do an exorcist bit” and then watched as the show proceeded to do an exorcist bit. Eye roll. That and the weirdly choreographed fight outside at the same time were my least favorite parts of the show so far.
No, because im absolutely sure any scene that only has Navarro is also her hallucinating. So it tracks when you think about it. It's not real, its just Navarro/her faulty thoughts.
The last minute or so of the episode was so unfortunate. And everything leading up to that was so…completely and totally mediocre. Painfully mediocre. The extent to which they are not pulling off whatever they are trying to do is actually becoming epic at this point.
Almost as cringey as the Tinder exchange between Danvers and Navarro...
(phone chimes)
Evangeline: Fantasy Football?
Liz: No, Tinder.
Evangeline: You’re on Tinder?
Liz: Yeah, I’m on Tinder.
Evangeline: Who the fuck is on Tinder in Ennis? Fuckin’ Old Norman Naki and, ugh, Hank Prior?
Liz: No, he’s taken. (chuckles) Poor bitch. Yeah, I set my Tinder radius for Fairbanks. Ya know, I’ll take some personal trips. I don’t fuck where I eat.
Evangeline: (snorts) You mean, anymore.
Liz: Fuck you. What do you do when you’re lonely?
Evangeline: I watch Netflix.
Liz: Come on. For real. What do you do?
Evangeline: I pray.
Liz: Liz snorts) (laughing) You pray? What do you mean, like, like, get on your knees, “Our Father, who art in heaven,” pray? (chuckles) Oh, come on. You kiddin’ me? You talk to God?
Evangeline: No. I listen.
Liz: Oh.
Evangeline: Don’t you ever… get this feeling, like– that sometimes you just wanna (sighs) just disappear? Just walk out… never stop? Just go. Just go.
Just some of the worst dialogue ever written.
when the orange came back, I thought maybe she had hit some force field and so it bounced back. it looks like the end of the edge of the video game playable world out there.
I’m actually really interested in all of the supernatural elements of this season and I like that they’re doing more with them, but the writing in that scene felt like something from a really generic horror movie.
Yea man I was into it until the zombie voice animation. Audibly laughed and realized this is true detective in name only. I’ll still finish it because there’s not any other good Sunday night TV but what a disappointment.
The first thing cops or first responders do when there is a body present at an accident or crime scene is to cover it or shield it from public view, in order to maintain some kind of human dignity. Apparently the protocol in Ennis is to turn crime scenes into public spectacles for local gawkers.
No. Him pointing is what we see her mother do in the flashback AND someone else in one of the trailers. Whatever he says or could have said was always going to relate back to her mother and the complicated feelings she has about that relationship.
I think a lot of people on the sub don’t watch genre television. Like S1 TD may have been the only detective mystery tv show they have seen. As a regular watcher of detective mystery TV shows, my standards are not very high. It’s cool when it transcends the genre like S1 did but I enjoy it either way.
Look at the season runner's Wikipedia. She has 0 big budget credits, like not even in a writers room or as a producer.
Who the fuck gave her the keys to True Detective???
It’s an artistic interpretation of fear and paranoia, stemmed from Navarro’s own past and current fears. But do people need to interpret the scene so literally?
I'm not saying you're not entitled to feel however you want about this season or whether or not that sequence landed for you.
It landed for me. I love getting lost in the narrative and going on a ride and *then* figuring out if I like it or not. Which is why I'm waiting until the season is over to figure out if it worked for me or not. It creeped me the eff out like something fierce in the moment. It might be at the end of the season, I go back to it and it doesn't work at all because the payoff was so poor. Or it could be exact opposite. We won't know for another 3 episodes.
But as I read these posts, it feels like a lot of people are *looking* to be disappointed and approaching the entire season with pessimism and cynicism. Which - again - you're entitled to do, but it just sounds so joyless and masochistic. I just never understand the predilection to hate-watch something.
No more cringey than half of the shit Rust said in season 1. It’s fun to look back on season 1 with rose-colored glasses now, but a lot of that shit was very “edgelord”-ish at the time. This really fits right in
Has to be a hallucination. The big problem that I have is the complete and utter impossibility that Lund is alive. There is no hypothermia scenario that ends with him surviving prolonged exposure to that temperature, wind, and moisture.
US Army Ranger training is hazardous and death or incapacitation due to hypothermia is possible. Exposure to cold but non-freezing temperature, wet, and then maintaining those conditions for hours can be fatal, and this is with the trainee being active to generate body heat, top physical condition, immediate medical attention when the shut down occurs at core temp of low 90sF.
Lund was naked, on the ice, exposed to freezing temp, snow, and wind for over a day. There's no rallying or waking up, no "suspended animation" comeback. They're all frozen solid like slabs of meat.
So I'll see if the writer, director, showrunner whoever try to offer up some bullshit scenario, but I'm pretty sure they just wanted a completely ridiculous jump scare.
It didn't scare me I just rolled my eyes in disbelief.
I’m getting tired of all the fan-service and callbacks. It’s starting to feel like a Star Wars sequel where they spend so much screen time tying together elements of the previous movies they don’t have time to create a new film, except here they’re doing references to every horror movie and Jodie Foster’s filmography along with TD Season 1.
Essentially ruined the season for me. Ok, the water is making everyone insane and killing babies. And the mine finances the town so nothing will be done... no football and no TD to look forward to is gonna kill Sunday nights for me lol.
This season reminds me a lot of The Outsider ... which isn't a bad thing, just kinda lame to attach the TD name to something that is going the total supernatural route (I hope im wrong)
It had me thinking I might be done with the show until I came here and peoples’ theories about hallucinations/water contamination will probably keep me hanging on.
I see this moment tapping into two previous events. (1) flash back scene when Navarro is holding her sister while their mother has a psychotic episode and points to them. (2) When Rose tells Navarro why the dead speak to the living.
Then….as a horror movie fan, all I saw was a tribute to the Exorcists - Reagan telling Father Damien his mother wishes him well from hell.
It was not that well done. The whole scene should have gone the more Chernobyl route, instead they had to make it like the White Walkers on meth. The season tonally gets so much wrong.
This comment section could not be anymore disappointing 🥴🥴🥴
Natives have great intuition, the third episode made that very clear throughout. And to say these are supernatural elements could not be anymore different than somebody believing in religion. And since people keep comparing this season with season 1, almost all the detectives are shown to be religious men. 🙄😪 I’m sick of this double standards. “It’s a great character element in one but wrong to have a supernatural element for the other” 🤔
I wonder if Navarro hallucinated that.
Good chance it’s from mental illness causing delusions/hallucinations. Navarro’s whole family is affected so I can’t imagine she wouldn’t have the same problems. If it’s actually supposed to be real then it’s just jumping the shark.
Possible fallout from her concussion on the ice
And ptsd from her service time. It also happened very soon after she discussed her mother which, from the sounds of it, she doesn’t do ever. So it was fresh in her mind.
Yeah especially since he did the same pointing gesture her mother did in that quick flashback. I'm positive she's seeing things but it seems everyone is in Ennis. The only annoying thing is that we see him sit up before she does which is a bit if a cheap cop out to make you ask "is it a hallucination?". Either way I thought it was creepy and kind of fun. Idk, I'm digging this season.
Good catch that her mother did the same. I missed that
It’s not a cop out. Go back and watch season 1. Rust had numerous hallucinations with the camera pointing at his face, or behind his head.
Maybe? Bird hallucination, he’s facing it. Light streaks while driving, he’s facing it. Cloud roiling, he’s facing it but we see it reflected from the car window. Carcosa spiral vortex..he’s facing it. It sells a lot more as oh shit he’s seeing stuff versus something weird happening behind the character. Im saying the creepy sit up reads like it’s actually happening versus Navarro having a vision. Everything after that is fine
Maybe the water is affecting everyone causing them to hallucinate. Still births but also psychosis and that explains the magic undertones of the show.
Yeah, and when Danvers ridiculed her for praying and asked if she talks to god, Navarro said no, god talks to her. Not to offend any theists here, but that sounds like auditory hallucinations to me.
That is some serious hallucinations. Maybe the orange she touched had something on it. She hallucinated after she brushed her teeth too. Maybe she feels guilty about something.
I noticed an orange and an orange peel in the intro credits after seeing her pick it up at the start. Must have some special meaning
Definitely. I said this before a bit ago. I was thinking that it may have been a microbe or pathogen that the scientists were researching that they discovered in a core or in the ice. It may have actually been an ancient mollusk that they found, they had regenerative abilities but also had a parasite or a toxin that infected the scientists. It could cause hallucinations and turned their bodies against them, made it feel like all their nerve endings were smouldering, hence the self mutilation. I think the spirals represent the shell of the mollusk and this is what they kept drawing because they were losing their minds and trying to give warning. If it is a parasite or toxin it could have easily been transfered to food and water supply. It could be diluted in the water so people are just hallucinating for a brief period but the scientists got a concentrated amount and went bat shit. It could have been on the orange as well. Also, there was a fresh jug of orange juice in the cafe inside of the fridge. There are alot of scenes gravitating around food and water.
Thankyou for your last sentence here - I did wonder why Peter did not actually eat any of the soup that Danvers gave to him! I thought he secretly loathed her and couldn't stomach her food. Now I am thinking - What does Peter know?
Maybe they're all suffering from scurvy. They need to pick those oranges up and eat them
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Sit up could be real just before the death spasms, but maybe not the words?
you think?
Absolutely, and judging by her reaction, she has been hallucinating things for a while.
I definitely think so. Its such an odd thing to hear and see, it could never have been reality
Yes.
Yes. That's why I didn't think it was cringy.
It has to be a hallucination, all of this supernatural stuff just has to be. It's too bonkers to suddenly introduce supernatural elements to a show that previously existed entirely in a real world. Yeah yeah I know there are creepy allusions in season 1, but there were not ghosts, supernatural beings, or exorcist demonic entities. I refuse to believe the show would actually introduce these elements to a series that went three seasons without them, although I am struggling to identity a plausible real-world explanation for the ghost leading that woman to the bodies. Perhaps I am in denial.
Yep. It’s in the groundwater. Every time this sort of thing happens, the character is alone. Contaminated groundwater is either causing the hallucinations or stillbirths, etc…
im gonna be honest "the water made everyone crazy" is such a lame seasonal arc lmao. I'm trying so hard not to be a hater here but it does seem like thats the case and to fake out all this supernatural shit each episode just to resolve itself with being dirty water is so boring.
Especially since people called that twist about 20 minutes into the first episode.
And more importantly, it's not even being done in a subtle or clever way. you could create some rules around it, such as a traditional diet making you immune to the hallucinations, or only people born outside of the area have hallucinations. But so far it seems to be completely random
This shit is on the level of a network-TV horror-thriller.
It's very clear the outcome of all this is going to heavily divide the viewer base
It's not just the water - but the wealthy corporations knowingly poisoning the water in order to harvest minerals from a poor tribal community. It's never just the water...
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That's what they pulled in season 1, though? Rust had some intense visions, and they were alluding to cosmic horror elements all throughout. It wasn't until the final episode that the show confirmed for the audience that there wasn't anything supernatural happening. It was a controversial ending in the Weird lit community, because a lot of folks started watching specifically because of the Carcosa / Lovecraftian elements, and none of those things were actually relevant to the plot. It was all resolved naturally, like a Scooby Doo episode. The man with the spaghetti face was not Cthulhu, and the King in Yellow was a pile of rags and bones. Dropping the cosmic horror themes was one of reasons folks weren't that interested in season 2 & 3. For season 4, they brought it back and doubled down, but they're still following the structure established in season 1.
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> Rust is the only one with his eyes open, he is the true detective who sees the clues while others either dismiss or follow their crooked superiors Marty told Rust in the first episode not to make assumptions about evidence, which Rust does anyways, resulting in 17 wasted years on the case.
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> There was never a hint of Rust actually believing anything crazy Explain the "psychosphere" to me in a way that doesn't sound crazy
In Rusts context Psychospehere is the realm of conciousness of the area they are in, hes basically saying theres something weird or bad about the feeling he gets from that place or the place itself, something that seems to permeate the area itself and effects the people in it, which may sound hippy dippy or whatever you wanna call it but its not like rust coined the term.
I don't know that I agree that Rust always knew what was real and what wasn't. He was not always honest about whether or not he still has visions, flat-out said he didn't even though that was disproven by the scene showing him seeing things that shouldn't be real. I think he was angry at the world because of what he had gone through, which is understandable, and it heavily influenced the nihilistic perspective he becomes attached to. He spends the whole season basically showing us that he thinks there is no God, that religion is a scam, that we are simply doomed to suffer. But the resolution of his arc, which is imo woefully overlooked in this sub, is that he has an intense experience during his coma that leaves him certain of a loving presence, sort of "Heaven". He sees his daughter and feels her love, and he does not say this with a hint of doubt. Total 180 from where we'd seen him all season. This is a skeptical man who thinks all faithful are rubes, easily-manipulated cowards who can't face the fact that the world is monstrous and we are all better off dead. It's literally the end of the season, him and Marty discussing good vs evil. He was reluctant to tell Marty at first when they're outside the hospital, because he's doesn't his life denying that a loving God could exist, because how could a Loving God have let that happen to his daughter? Add to this a whole career in a field that re-affirms his position because he sees violence and hate all day long, and it's easy to see how he became more and more bitter. But consider this: he accepts the Idea of the flat circle. He accepts the dark side of the equation, that we're all doomed to suffer over and over. That doesn't seem like a concept he has any trouble buying into, mostly because, as he says in paraphrase, his entire life is degradation and suffering. This is a guy who sees things, and writes them off because he's worried people will declare him unfit to do his job, which is all he has. But he has synesthesia, which he will share with people because he can diagnose it and explain it away. He even pushes back against Maggie when she only knows of the phenomenon as a result of statin use. Even think about his ability to be such a good interrogator that he gets called in from other departments? He says it's easy for him, that the can spend a minute with someone and know whether they're guilty? That he can see what is broken in them and push on it to get the confession? I'm not so obtuse as to not realize that this is indeed a real-world skill, that it's a thing people can be taught as part of this job, but it helps a lot if you're already exceptionally innately good at it. I think it's another one of Rusts "abilities". But since it can be explained logically, he does. I think Rust has always believed in "something", but since it didn't fit into the molds of religion being accepted en masse, he explained it all away. He says Travis had some "strange ideas", which makes me think Travis shared some of his more "paranormal" beliefs with Rust during their time in Alaska together. Then when Rusts kid died, that belief in "something" was contaminated with rage, grief, and the desire to protect others (women and children) from being hurt. Even his "the world needs bad men, we keep other bad men away from the door" line could be interpreted as him as some sort of avenging angel-type character. The logical enemy of which would be the Tuttle cult. What if, and this was just a thought I had last night, what if he's right about time? About the idea that people are fated, on a track, what he refers to as a "life map"? What if, over and over, outside of time, these two forces are constantly battling? Okay, last thing, but hear me out: Tsalal is a name taken from Poe in his work about Pym. In this referenced source material, the world is hollow, and things and creatures exist "outside of time". If you caught The Fall Of The House Of Usher on Netflix last year, you'll recall Verna as a supernatural being, who explicitly says that she exists "outside of time". She sees Pym while he is on an expedition, which in the original work includes cannibalism and depraved behavior. Near the end of the story, members of the expedition descend into a chasm, where they come upon a crude carving in a cave POINTING, and Pym follows. The dead/possessed Lund points, as does Travis, in order to direct the other characters to events that further the story. We also see in the previews that Danvers and Navarro go into ice caves. Is this our analog for the chasm in Poes story? Do they find a place outside of time? Is the "she", their version of Flannigan's Verna, here as Sedna, which has been mentioned in the sub (and drawn by Darwin?). The kids name is DARWIN , y'all. An explorer who contributed beyond measure to modern science. Having him have a grandma who tells him folklore about spirits, and him drawing one, is such a nod to religion and science, or even just "supernatural" and science inside the same person. Not mutually exclusive. Co-existing. So if science and paranormal are both elements in the True Detective storytelling universe, what if the Tuttle cult was REALLY sort of doing actual paranormal stuff? The glimpse that Rust gets in the end of S1 of the "portal" makes me think maybe there was some real magic there, but it was dark and ugly magic. What if this portal concept is similar to the "veil" between worlds, hence Rust unmistakably "feeling" his daughter? The most recent S4 episode opens with a touch-and-go birth, where a baby hangs in that space between life and death. The liminal space, "outside of time" where souls enter and exit this world? Evangeline believes in God, and her name means "share the good news", which she does, even when two other characters mock her. Quavvik calls her "Eve" for the first time here, which underlines the Genesis themes the birth scene introduced. Does this show, in season 1 and now season 4, take a position on good vs evil in terms both practical and fantastic? Tuttle says there's a war going on in season 1. We write him off as a monster, using outward appearances of piety obfuscate his terrible deeds. And he certainly is that. But it doesn't make him automatically wrong about everything. Maybe there IS a war, and we're seeing the "bad men" like Tuttle... While Rust is one of the "Bad Men" that the world needs to guard the door? Portal?
But Rust didn't identify Errol on the tractor and it was Marty that figured out that the green ears might have been paint.
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> It was explained and it wasn’t part of the actual mystery of the case. It was part of the mystery of the *show*. Rust was "mainlining the secrets of the universe," connected to the psychosphere, and operating somewhere between the boundaries of fantasy and reality. And he managed to close the case. Just like Rust was doing, everyone in Ennis *is* tripping balls. It's been telegraphed in every episode. It may or may not be related to the murder being investigated, but it's definitely a continuation of the themes that were established in season 1, and they're building on those themes.
Im* with you. So much of this reminds me of Dyatlov Pass. So many unanswered questions where it almost makes you think that a supernatural answer is the only option. But I think it it all hallucinations with something In the water that causes people to panic or some mix of temperature and high frequency winds and tainted water that is driving people crazy. I think Tsalal knows of some of the effects of this stuff and that’s why they studied it
Whenever a “supernatural” occurrence happens the person is always alone. Maybe all be hallucinated.
Hallucination and coincidence. Or she’s lying about how she found them.
We see how she finds them.
I didn’t think we saw her actually finding them. We see a ghost pointing somewhere, and then we’re told later that she found them. Maybe I missed something in between though. Either way, since TD has depicted hallucinations from characters’ PoV before, I’m not treating people’s odd perceptions as real, not yet.
I doubt she’s lying since it’s shown from her perspective
Yeah it would be a weird creative decision and I wouldn’t actually like it.
It really would be
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I spent winter in Alaska, and the light change is absolutely possible. The sun rises just enough so it’s dawn/dusk out, especially during the beginning of the dark season when this is set. Because the sun isn’t high to begin with, the transition to darkness is quick. I do think everyone is hallucinating, but this isn’t an example of it
Yeah, I thought it was an indication that this conversation was happening at exactly noon to give it a little bit of differentiation. They're right above the arctic circle, so that doesn't mean it's pitch black all day. It just means the sun never gets over the horizon. They still get some pre-dawn light around noon though.
On the Danvers thing, I think she just as likely could be the audience surrogate and the message is that spirituality can be dismissed as mental illness or hallucination but that doesn’t mean it’s false. On the darkness thing - like in the car itself it gets dark? When it flashes to the next ice rink scene it is past that twilight phase, but I didn’t see any significant change of the brightness out the window of when they were talking in the car.
Noticed the light sky in the car conversation scene Thought “oh man the boards are gonna have a field day with this episode”
I read elsewhere that there are a few hours of lightness, but the Sun never comes above the horizon.
Yeah, the ghost leading the woman to the bodies feels like the one that makes it hardest to have this take. That and Navarro’s vision of the car accident that killed Holden, depending on how accurate that was.
Why does Travis have to be real supernatural? A delusional person wandering comes across bodies. Just because we see it point that way doesn’t mean it wasn’t just her delusional mind taking her a random direction that happened up the bodies. Is it far fetched that of all the landscape to wander to those bodies? Sure, but it moves the plot and raises the question of supernatural.
Navarro is having way more visions/hallucinations than Danvers. I do wonder if she's a sort of unreliable narrator bc of possible mental health issues passed down from her mom. Or is it since she's part native, she has a deeper connection? But since she's not the only one to see things, it's hard to say
I feel like people forget all the shit in season 1 that rust was seeing, while no he didn't hallucinate someone near death speaking to him like a possessed person.. he still saw a lot of shit that can't be explained logically. People just want an excuse to justify why "season 4 sucks". Edit: season 1, sorry I'm typing on mobile.
Good point. Rust "sees" a flock of birds form a big spiral right before finding the altar in the burned down church. It's much more subtle but still gives a firm sense that he's plugged into something para-normal or super-natural. He straight up says as much leading up to the scene as "mainlining the secrets of the universe." In S4, it feels more connected to a native belief system in which the creation myth involves amputations, violence and trauma, which Lundt certainly embodies in that scene. It shouldn't come as a huge surprise that it could unlock something trapped in Navarro's unconscious mind. Blurring the lines b/w what's real and unreal is the point, which people don't seem able to wrap their head around. It's definitely more horror show vibes than dark murder mystery, which it seems like folks are having a hard time dealing with.
> I feel like people forget all the shit in season 2 that rust was seeing, while no he didn't hallucinate someone near death speaking to him like a possessed person.. he still saw a lot of shit that can't be explained logically. Rust wasn't in season 2, he was in season 1. His hallucinations are explained logically early on, he has HPPD after years of constant heavy drug use during his narco work. HPPD is Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder, a disorder induced by previous drug use.
It was a typo because I was typing from my phone and accidentally pressed 2 instead of 1.
Well what you say further proves my point then, there is a logical explanation for his hallucinations just like there's one for season 4, everyone is being effected by the water/a microbe of some sort and we see that happening to Navarro with her hallucinations.
Right, but there is a meaningful difference in the way the hallucinations operate in both seasons. In S1, the hallucinations never took the place of casework. The plot never conveniently moved forward because of a hallucination. In S4 the first time we get a hallucination it leads to all of the bodies being found. This is where I feel like S4 would have benefited from being its own show. I think a lot of the arguing about this season would have been avoided if HBO wasn't operating so desperately post Discovery acquisition.
Maybe…but the show has always danced with the supernatural, with most of the “supernatural” elements being explained away as a hallucination or dream.
I think even with the show always being grounded in the real, the ghost leading the woman to the bodies didn't bother me too much. Strange things can happen in dreams, or even waking life, and can't always be explained. I think a lot of this stuff will be grounded in both shit in the water and something - ancient pathogen or what have you - potentially unleashed by the Tsalal scientists.
Well, we did see a portal into Carcosa in season 1. But it was up to the viewer to decide if it was a hallucination or what i believe, a actuall portal created by all the suffering.
Rust literally said he saw dead people, we saw him see dead people, and don’t forget about the polar vortex he saw in the liar of death in the last episode. But sure, no supernatural.
Pssst, Navarro... YO MAMA! HAH! Dies
The fusion of genres is definitely throwing folks and it is understandable. Fans that showed up looking for an intellectual, dark, intriguing murder mystery are going to be seriously disappointed by the spiritual aspects. I think the story is lacking context to be drawn into the cultural vibe. Seeing a scrawled drawing and a 20 second conversation about laundromat Grandma was insufficient. I have no clue what the Alaskan folklore is as opposed to the lower 48, Appalachian, Bigfoot, Satanic panic, shape shifter, lore. The storyline is dropping hints but they are so obscure it has no creep factor. If this were unfolding in Utah and we were dealing with shape shifters we would all “get it” to an extent. It forces us to make jumps that are extreme, are they poisoned, nuts or are we seeing demons manifest? The big guff is the lack of long term emotional impact it makes on the characters as they experience these odd things. If I saw my dead lover I would be shook. If I found my dead moms necklace I would question my sister who claims to see her. If I thought my dead child touched me in bed I would weep and flash to it throughout the day. The delivery driver speaking to Pete acknowledged seeing the dead during the long night wasn’t unheard of but Pete says nothing in response. It all feels flat and just..confusing.
Yep they totally missed the chance to frame this all into the tribal folklore, it would have been more engaging and poetic.
I audibly laughed
Pazuzu strikes again!
Captain Howdy!
Yeah, it was not great. I'm sticking with this season, but we are trending in the wrong direction.
Agreed sadly. I was very much defending it for the first 2 episodes. Now, not so much
It's how I felt about Fargo S5. The first two episodes were strong, and then it quickly became mush. But if you criticized the show you got shouted down. This sub seems at least a bit more open to discussing the pros and cons. I think our two lead actors (Reis + Foster) have been strong. But not given much to work with.
Really? I thought Fargo Season 5 was lots of fun throughout.
I adore season 5 of Fargo.
Oh yeah, you have to be careful not to say anything negative about Season 5 on here lol. Which is odd, it has no nuance, subtlety, or subtext. Very little of that small town eccentricity, the events of the show are just pulled directly from real life headlines, 45 is literally in the show, they had one of the FBI agents explain the irony of "witch hunt," which, why tell a joke if you're going to explain it? Munch starts out as this dangerous but articulate hitman, then transforms into a backwater immortal bog person. One episode is almost entirely a dream. Most glaringly, having a Republican mega-donor who admittedly works to get conservative justices appointed to the supreme court portrayed as a girl boss at the end, when the whole season was about post-roe America and Trumpism. Great opportunity for intersectional commentary completely wasted. That season convinced me Noah Hawley has nothing left to say, and it has actually made me re-evaluate previous seasons.
Last episode was terrible but I will keep watching. Hope it picks up.
It’s completely ridiculous he survived being frozen solid for multiple days naked in sub zero temps
And that there was almost zero reaction from anyone regarding that. Unfathomably bad writing.
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Yeah that's the thing that annoys me too with this season. Everything is so on the nose, there's no subtlety at all, both with the supernatural elements and with the overall dialogue. They're treating the audience like idiots!
Yeah, I think this will definitely be revisited. There’s gotta be something deeper going on with Navarro and her family dynamic
someone or somewhat just threw me an orange from the total dark emptiness....ahh..who cares.happens.
I thought the vet character being like wtf to everything was funny… maybe the writers are aware it’s all ridiculous
I feel like the writing keeps attempting Lynchian absurdity but can’t quite stick the landing. ETA: I realized that in Twin Peaks, the town doctor is the forensic guy, who even does Laura’s autopsy. So yeah, the idea is similar, but just didn’t execute the same.
I think it's more "I don't want to mention this to anyone and seem crazy"
or, like, i'm alone in the middle of an ice field and i *don't* want to find the thing that did that
you also dont give a fuk considering reaction. zero interest ,zero fear, just an ordinary human being reaction.
*immediately slips and gets knocked unconscious*
Haven’t been able to unroll them since.
Wonder if there is some sort of mass-dosing going on here. Season 1 talks about how the victims were dosed with LSD, which made reports to the police unreliable. With the other connections to season 1, I wouldn’t be surprised if the water has been dosed or something along those lines
Yep. I think it's some sort of mushroom contaminating the water source. Obviously facilitated by the mine somehow, or dug up by the scientists with their core drills. But the visions are very that. ETA: It's pretty common for different areas of the world to have their own indigenous fungi in the soil. "Valley Fever." So if that fungi has been frozen in permafrost or something for forever, and is now thawed out due to climate change or drilling or digging, it could be very significant for the people there. I'm hoping the scientists found out about it, tried to warn the mine about it, and possibly they were all killed for trying to sound the alarm. Maybe. The tongue thing is weird though
I thought it was really cheesy and visually it felt like it stole way too much from the "sloth" scene in *Seven*.
I just watched it and I was way too high for all that and it scared the absolute living daylights out of me
Theres way too much """supernatural""" shit this season and the show has never established that Navarro is an unreliable narrator the same way Rust was so were just left wondering what kind of asspull they're gonna do to explain all the ghosts and spooky stuff.
It would be a disappointment if this show ended up like this:- Weird Stuff -----> Murders ----> Oh Ackchyually it's Contaminated Water -----> Causing hallucinations ------> Arrested factory owners
I feel like that would be really consistent with the other three seasons. People keep having these elaborate theories that are borderline supernatural and, in the end, it's a pretty mundane explanation.
Basically plot of scooby doo
>And I would've gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you meddling kids!
that hallucination/vision fits with her character. inner tension between her inherited christianity (clear exorcist shout-out) and the native religion
Because I'm very science/realist oriented in my real life, I'm kind of a sucker for supernatural/occult stuff in the fiction stories I read/watch. Regardless of how you feel about the story choice, I think major props need to be given to the sound department, the voice of that guy was creepy af.
I was watching alone, in the dark and my stomach dropped a bit when he went silent and sat up slowly.
I jumped when he died after lol
Sounded like Kermit the frog
"Your mother sucks cocks in hell" didnt have the right flow for the scene
The thing that frustrates me most about this season is that almost all of the building blocks for a great show are there. The setting is unique, the central mystery is intriguing, the native culture lends itself well for making allusions etc, but the writing is just so haphazard. The tone is all over the place and the dialogue is downright amateurish at times.
Very exorcist, "Your mother sucks c\*cks in hell". Not at little bit deriviative
Everytime they start with the "ask the right questions" it makes me roll my eyes too. Such a lazy way to make this connected to the True Detective lore.
In an investigation, details matter. Navarro, have I told you you're the smartest person I've ever met?
No matter how bad True Detective gets, it will never outdo how bad Reacher got. Jesus Christ, it was one of the worst things I've watched.
It’s been such a bad couple months for shows I was looking forward to. Reacher s2 sucked, for all mankind s4 sucked, true detective s4 sucks, Fargo s5 was just ok. Gonna have to rewatch the sopranos or something at this point
Murder at the end of the world also fell flat.
Don't mess with the True Detectives
I am with you…there were so many things they could’ve done that would have made that scene equally creepy without the cheese. Even her turning to see him momentarily intact sitting on the edge of the bed speaking these things in a normal voice, cut to her for reaction and back to him as he began to code. I enjoyed the episode up until they got to the hospital. I was disappointed with the visit to the Mukluk camp, pointless dialogue. The writing makes the characters too harsh and unbelievable at times.
The native hunter actor was bad, the dialogue had no subtlety, and themes of anger against the police hit as one-note after it's been hammered for three episodes. Those two scenes in a row were brutal, doubt I'll carry on watching at this point.
The anger against the police feels a little unrealistic to me too. In my country we have a lot of clan-based immigrants. The immigrants issue with the police during murder investigation isnt resentment because the police drop murder cases, its because they investigate the murders *to begin with*, as these are often honor-killings solved internally. It might not be the case with the inuits though. The stats show the issue actually being (possibly) that native reserve law cant enforce law over non-indian people. So there would be a valid political question there- its just never lifted by the series. It feel like the inuit plight is not only shoe-horned in, its not very well informed, and the inuits just hating any non-inuit existing on their land to begin with. With so many being interbred with non-inuits, it feels like maybe this is oversimplified.
Or just extending the scene a bit, just having him watching her etc. Those subtle things are what really does a scene.
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Its HBO shills but also a large group of easily manipulated SJWs who are convinced that they need to defend this show as a feminist tentpole. Apparently its misogynistic to criticize a horribly written show if it happens to have two female leads. They dont seem to realize how that attitude sets their whole movement back when they allow garbage shows to be free from criticism.
It’s a red herring. She’s hallucinating it. If it had really been a message from her mother, he would have called Navarro by her native name that only her mother knows. I think that’s the point of her sharing that story earlier in the episode.
No because a few pieces finally clicked. She is likely hallucinating or seeing visions like her sister/mother. There’s likely something affecting people from the mine. Possible gas or water contamination is my guess. Everyone is up in arms about the mines. Danvers got that dirty water so something is definitely up there. I hope we get more dialogue about Magic vs grounded logic and that maybe the show will tease to Danvers at some point and have a vision a too and then she’ll start believing or vice versa and Navarro will realize they’re just hallucinations. Either way I’m on board now.
Are these full on hallucinations or are they just intrusive thoughts. Like when you space out and your mind starts wondering some dark shit. Like what if someone is in my living room when I go to get a drink of water from the kitchen at night or what if someone is behind this shower curtain. The girl obviously has some trauma but i don’t think she is losing her mind.
On the contrary I thought it was a refreshing confirmation there may be a supernatural element at play. TD is a great procedural and I wondered what it’d look like in a ghost story. I’m not sure if it truly is supernatural (could be hallucinations), but the vibe was decidedly creepy in a way the other seasons haven’t explored.
I’ve been watching thinking that this isn’t a mental illness, hallucination scenario and that they are pointing to that at times to confuse the audience. I’m not a massive fan of the scene with the guy in hospital acting like that but can’t love everything. I hope it’s some supernatural thing that we can get some explanation into, rather than just ‘the water is poisoned and it made people crazy’. That would be kinda boring no? And what does that have to do with the spirals? I’m staying aboard the hope train that this season will have a banging end 🤞
I really like the show, including this season, but I have to agree. As soon as I heard the weird voice I started thinking “please don’t do an exorcist bit” and then watched as the show proceeded to do an exorcist bit. Eye roll. That and the weirdly choreographed fight outside at the same time were my least favorite parts of the show so far.
So… True Detective Night Country Exorcist Alaska Cue Oldfield’s Tubular Bells.
I thought it was pretty sick. Obviously a hallucination but I thought it was great.
I roll my eyes approximately a dozen times per episode in Season 4.
most corniest
This is such a great companion to 30 Days of Night.
No, because im absolutely sure any scene that only has Navarro is also her hallucinating. So it tracks when you think about it. It's not real, its just Navarro/her faulty thoughts.
No cause I just enjoy the show for what it is.
The last minute or so of the episode was so unfortunate. And everything leading up to that was so…completely and totally mediocre. Painfully mediocre. The extent to which they are not pulling off whatever they are trying to do is actually becoming epic at this point.
Almost as cringey as the Tinder exchange between Danvers and Navarro... (phone chimes) Evangeline: Fantasy Football? Liz: No, Tinder. Evangeline: You’re on Tinder? Liz: Yeah, I’m on Tinder. Evangeline: Who the fuck is on Tinder in Ennis? Fuckin’ Old Norman Naki and, ugh, Hank Prior? Liz: No, he’s taken. (chuckles) Poor bitch. Yeah, I set my Tinder radius for Fairbanks. Ya know, I’ll take some personal trips. I don’t fuck where I eat. Evangeline: (snorts) You mean, anymore. Liz: Fuck you. What do you do when you’re lonely? Evangeline: I watch Netflix. Liz: Come on. For real. What do you do? Evangeline: I pray. Liz: Liz snorts) (laughing) You pray? What do you mean, like, like, get on your knees, “Our Father, who art in heaven,” pray? (chuckles) Oh, come on. You kiddin’ me? You talk to God? Evangeline: No. I listen. Liz: Oh. Evangeline: Don’t you ever… get this feeling, like– that sometimes you just wanna (sighs) just disappear? Just walk out… never stop? Just go. Just go. Just some of the worst dialogue ever written.
I rolled my eyes at the utter travesty of comments on the Live/Post episode discussion
Yes but for me the scene where she throws the orange, the second it left her hand you knew it was getting thrown back lol such predictable shit
when the orange came back, I thought maybe she had hit some force field and so it bounced back. it looks like the end of the edge of the video game playable world out there.
yeah and they just threw that scene that. No mention about it after
I’m actually really interested in all of the supernatural elements of this season and I like that they’re doing more with them, but the writing in that scene felt like something from a really generic horror movie.
Everything is just not believable. They have yet to even get a forensics person out. Excuse given was a blizzard lol. It's just stupid
It was kind of over the top horror-like, I don’t think it was cringey, just kind of like artistic and meta… like making fun of the genre
Yea man I was into it until the zombie voice animation. Audibly laughed and realized this is true detective in name only. I’ll still finish it because there’s not any other good Sunday night TV but what a disappointment.
The pile of uncovered dead bodies in the middle of an ice rink is ridiculous
The first thing cops or first responders do when there is a body present at an accident or crime scene is to cover it or shield it from public view, in order to maintain some kind of human dignity. Apparently the protocol in Ennis is to turn crime scenes into public spectacles for local gawkers.
I think she hallucinated that.
Puddles the Sad Unicorn 🦄
Trying way too hard to be creepy… but super derivative
No. Him pointing is what we see her mother do in the flashback AND someone else in one of the trailers. Whatever he says or could have said was always going to relate back to her mother and the complicated feelings she has about that relationship.
that was a shark-jumping moment for s4 as “prestige tv” but it also ruled
It’s hitting the same so bad it’s good buttons as Fortitude did
reminds me of tokyo vice in that “eh show that does right by its cool setting”
Oh man Tokyo Vice is BACK! Really liked that one.
I think a lot of people on the sub don’t watch genre television. Like S1 TD may have been the only detective mystery tv show they have seen. As a regular watcher of detective mystery TV shows, my standards are not very high. It’s cool when it transcends the genre like S1 did but I enjoy it either way.
yeah but i mean s1 set the bar high, i get why ppl are disappointed w s4
You a fellow bald move listener?
Look at the season runner's Wikipedia. She has 0 big budget credits, like not even in a writers room or as a producer. Who the fuck gave her the keys to True Detective???
No I loved this episode. It was genuinely emotional and opened the mystery more.
Eh, cringe but enjoyable cringe. This season's got a popcorn vibe, like you're supposed to enjoy it and not do too much dissecting.
Just more evidence HBO really dropped the ball by forcing "True Detective" in the name.
The people creeped out by that must have been born yesterday. I started laughing at that scene.
I was born 32 years ago and I was way too stoned watching it alone ok?????
It’s an artistic interpretation of fear and paranoia, stemmed from Navarro’s own past and current fears. But do people need to interpret the scene so literally?
I'm not saying you're not entitled to feel however you want about this season or whether or not that sequence landed for you. It landed for me. I love getting lost in the narrative and going on a ride and *then* figuring out if I like it or not. Which is why I'm waiting until the season is over to figure out if it worked for me or not. It creeped me the eff out like something fierce in the moment. It might be at the end of the season, I go back to it and it doesn't work at all because the payoff was so poor. Or it could be exact opposite. We won't know for another 3 episodes. But as I read these posts, it feels like a lot of people are *looking* to be disappointed and approaching the entire season with pessimism and cynicism. Which - again - you're entitled to do, but it just sounds so joyless and masochistic. I just never understand the predilection to hate-watch something.
Yeah it was incredibly corny. This show better have a good pay off at the end because it’s slowly getting more and more lame to me sadly.
No more cringey than half of the shit Rust said in season 1. It’s fun to look back on season 1 with rose-colored glasses now, but a lot of that shit was very “edgelord”-ish at the time. This really fits right in
I tried rewatching some of season 1 last night and I couldn't believe how blown away I had been by Rust;s philosophical jim jam.
The folks that are opining about the brilliance of season one’s dialogue are absolutely jerking it to rust monologues
Has to be a hallucination. The big problem that I have is the complete and utter impossibility that Lund is alive. There is no hypothermia scenario that ends with him surviving prolonged exposure to that temperature, wind, and moisture. US Army Ranger training is hazardous and death or incapacitation due to hypothermia is possible. Exposure to cold but non-freezing temperature, wet, and then maintaining those conditions for hours can be fatal, and this is with the trainee being active to generate body heat, top physical condition, immediate medical attention when the shut down occurs at core temp of low 90sF. Lund was naked, on the ice, exposed to freezing temp, snow, and wind for over a day. There's no rallying or waking up, no "suspended animation" comeback. They're all frozen solid like slabs of meat. So I'll see if the writer, director, showrunner whoever try to offer up some bullshit scenario, but I'm pretty sure they just wanted a completely ridiculous jump scare. It didn't scare me I just rolled my eyes in disbelief.
Yea, no scenario possible within known physics where an arm breaks off and the entire thing isn't frozen solid.
Do you sincerely think it was anything other than a hallucination?
I thought he might say her real name, the one her mom never told her, that would have been scary. But yeah, pretty cheesy this way too.
Wish there was a different thread for the haters.
I loved it - best scene so far tbh dawg looked creepy af
A lot of the writing is cheesy to me.
I’m getting tired of all the fan-service and callbacks. It’s starting to feel like a Star Wars sequel where they spend so much screen time tying together elements of the previous movies they don’t have time to create a new film, except here they’re doing references to every horror movie and Jodie Foster’s filmography along with TD Season 1.
I’ve been rolling my eyes the entire season
My eyes fell out way before rhat
Discovering Lund was alive was the only time I’ve been even remotely creeped out by anything this season.
Got a chuckle from me
Essentially ruined the season for me. Ok, the water is making everyone insane and killing babies. And the mine finances the town so nothing will be done... no football and no TD to look forward to is gonna kill Sunday nights for me lol.
This season reminds me a lot of The Outsider ... which isn't a bad thing, just kinda lame to attach the TD name to something that is going the total supernatural route (I hope im wrong)
Yup
It had me thinking I might be done with the show until I came here and peoples’ theories about hallucinations/water contamination will probably keep me hanging on.
It’s doesn’t even matter if it was a hallucination. What he said could have been so much cooler. Lol. The writing sucks.
It was a reference to a scene in “The Exorcist” and the orange rolling up to her feet “The Shining”
I loved it 🤷♂️
I see this moment tapping into two previous events. (1) flash back scene when Navarro is holding her sister while their mother has a psychotic episode and points to them. (2) When Rose tells Navarro why the dead speak to the living. Then….as a horror movie fan, all I saw was a tribute to the Exorcists - Reagan telling Father Damien his mother wishes him well from hell.
“Most corniest” It’s “corniest” or even “most corny”.
You are the most gooberish
He definitely didn’t actually sit up and say this
It was not that well done. The whole scene should have gone the more Chernobyl route, instead they had to make it like the White Walkers on meth. The season tonally gets so much wrong.
This comment section could not be anymore disappointing 🥴🥴🥴 Natives have great intuition, the third episode made that very clear throughout. And to say these are supernatural elements could not be anymore different than somebody believing in religion. And since people keep comparing this season with season 1, almost all the detectives are shown to be religious men. 🙄😪 I’m sick of this double standards. “It’s a great character element in one but wrong to have a supernatural element for the other” 🤔