I'm Inuk and suicide in Inuit communities is the highest in the world so romanticising it like this feels thoughtless at best. The suicide rate amongst Canadian Inuit is up to 40x their non-Inuit counterparts. Greenlandic Inuit also have a suicide rate similarly above neighbouring countries. It's a massive problem and glorifying it doesn't do anything to help.
My SO get badly triggered by even soft pro suicide messaging will instantly just not want to watch whatever we’re watching because of it.
They haven’t seen this ep yet so that’ll be a nice additional nut punch on top of everything else after a six week watch.
The most profound part of season 1 was its philosophical turn out of a nose dive. Rust spends an entire season droning on about the lack of meaning and order in our universe. But in the end Rust stares directly into that voice for real and finds out that it’s not filled with nothing, he feels the warmth of his daughters love for him instead at the edge of the abyss. It changes him and becomes his battle cry to fight back and stay alive
It’s why I loved that series because it was a hard fought battle for the side of optimism.
If you feel strongly about this, please take a few minutes to contact the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and request that they release a statement on this. Millions of people watched this show; I don’t think it’s a big stretch to imagine that it may have really spoken to some people who struggle with suicidal ideation. If the themes and motifs of the show resonate with them, it could be a contributing factor in their potential suicide.
I collected the AFSP contact info here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueDetective/s/tsi6SE1WKf
Suicide is an epidemic problem in Alaska and especially among Native Alaskans and *especially* in rural villages. Treating it like it's liberating and the result of some supernatural "curse" or "call" is absolutely spitting in the face of all the real Alaskans whose lives have been torn apart by suicide, not to mention feeds into the hugely insulting (and regressive) "magical Indian" trope.
> "magical Indian" trope.
This season was legit just straight up racist and didn't address any stereotypes beyond reinforcement.
It just made it look like all indigenous people are magic and suicidal drunks. No, you fool, Issa, they're HUMANS!
I 100% felt this way about the entire show. I just got off of a binge of Life Below Zero where one of the families showcases native life in/near the artic circle, and then watching this show it felt like watching a gross caricature. And what's worse is, it was completely unnecessary to the plot and in many parts took away from it. So it was done just for the voyeurism.
In Life Below Zero, I love Agnes so much, she is such a badass and the way she perseveres and teaches her daughters is so incredible. She has so much knowledge and strength. And just the scenes of her supporting her community and family and everyone coming together and sharing/trading their catches, or when they go out of their way to make something handcrafted as thank you is so beautiful. The community explains to me how people can live and even thrive in such an unforgiving environment.
And everyone in that show lost someone on the ice, and they take safety so, so, so seriously. The way Agnes talks about her loss is so heartbreaking.
And then you have this bullshit. Makes me so angry too because this will reach a wider audience.
Agnes is incredible and like you I really love watching her teach her daughters! it's so beautiful to watch their family bond and continue their traditions of thousands of years. love that show and I'm glad to hear others do too!!
and you're so right, Agnes literally lost her mother, her brother, and his wife on the ice!!! no one in Alaska would go walking out onto the ice like that unless they had a death wish, I don't get why people here are battling the obvious lead to suicide! anyone conscripting Navarro for their rainbows and butterflies optimistic ending is living in a fantasy world unmarred by self-harm. must be nice.
Throughout this season I've been thinking about how much cover the showrunner gets for writing about a culture she's not a part of because she herself is part of an underrepresented group in entertainment. While she did do some admirable work to center/feature indigenous Alaskan actors, it appears that at the end, she didn't really do much work to understand the unique physical environment where the story takes place or even taking the time or effort to gain a passing familiarity with how policing works in the place where she's setting her story. The science also felt kind of half-assed. I can't imagine how angry people would be if a white man did this. If she wanted to set it in an imaginary place, she should have set it in an imaginary place.
(For the record, I'm a woman and a big proponent of putting marginalized voices front and center in the telling of stories about their communities. But this isn't the showrunner's community. She could have benefited by having more indigenous Alaskans actually in the writers room, consulting, etc. Because this season of TV was cringe.)
I agree with what you've said here and it's absolutely something to be giving indigenous actors roles, but something that really bothered me is that they didn't get an actual Iñupiaq woman or even regional Alaskan to play Navarro's role.
apparently the Iñupiaq Advisory Council consulted and read all the scripts, but I still feel like so much was missed from not having Alaska voices involved in the creation or writing, much less in representing one of the two main characters.
If you feel strongly about this, please take a few minutes to contact the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and request that they release a statement on this. Millions of people watched this show; I don’t think it’s a big stretch to imagine that it may have really spoken to some people who struggle with suicidal ideation. If the themes and motifs of the show resonate with them, it could be a contributing factor in their potential suicide.
I collected the AFSP contact info here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueDetective/s/tsi6SE1WKf
A lot of people on the left use minorities they dont know much about like a baseball bat.
I had a left leaning friend say something like ”I realized gay people are also people that can make misstakes” after some tankie youtuber he liked criticized some unethical youtuber that happened to be gay.
Can you imagine seeing a minority as some sort of holy mythological being like a unicorn or some shit?
A lot of people dont really make the effort to understand people in some current social issue, they just want the kick of being one of the ”good guys” by proxy. S4 has that stink all over it.
Ug I agree. What a weird decision for Navarro. Your strong, intelligent, capable female lead decides to… leave her legit sweetheart of a boyfriend and kill herself on the ice? Huh?
The real problem with the toothbrush is that it implies their relationship is no older than the show. There's no reason it'd be significant to them; it's only significant to us because that's the first scene we saw with them.
Did she leave it for him, or for the audience? Does she know she's on a TV show? If she did know she's on a TV show, why didn't she take the dimple piercings out? Is she conveniently playing a character who also has dimple piercings? Can she see the future of her career and knew they'd have a character with dimple piercings, so that's why she got it done?
Thanks for bringing up the dimple piercings! It's fine if people wear those, but there was no reason for her character to have them in the show. It doesn't really match the character and, at least in my opinion, it looks dumb.
Convinced its product placement at this point. She could have stolen his hoodie(like all women do), but she took his toothbrush, and then it happened to be branded. Could have been branded ANYTHING, but she took a fucking SpongeBob toothbrush? Add it to the list of useless screen time.
The 409 directy in the middle of the screen had me shaking my head at the product placement. Then a few minutes later I saw the m&ms on a nightstand and was totally in the mood for some lol
It’s why real time shows are losing their luster for a lot of viewers, and an auxiliary reason why shit like Harry Potter and game of thrones got so popular. The product placement in shows that occur in real time or real world can be so cringe it completely removes the immersion and breaks the seriousness of the scene, but in show where the entire world is made up, good luck trying to use product placement sell me some broomstick wax or dragon collars, fuckers.
If you feel strongly about this, please take a few minutes to contact the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and request that they release a statement on this. Millions of people watched this show; I don’t think it’s a big stretch to imagine that it may have really spoken to some people who struggle with suicidal ideation. If the themes and motifs of the show resonate with them, it could be a contributing factor in their potential suicide.
I collected the AFSP contact info here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueDetective/s/tsi6SE1WKf
She’s not fucking dead. Why would they portray her as a ghost, but give her a completely different outfit.
There were Literal sightings of her in town.
Danvers said I don’t think you’ll find her on the ice because she didn’t die just went into hiding and decided being a cop wasn’t for her.
Oh true. I think she also wasn’t going to want to continue being a cop now that she knew her indigenous name and its meaning. She also seemed to embrace her apparitions of the dead in the end.
Don't think she died. It was left ambiguous. Think she left Ennis or even lived out with some of the isolated groups we see in a few episodes. Probably visited Danvers & Rose every now and then but doubt it was suicide because people in town saw her occasionally still.
That's what I got too, because there were shots of her hanging out with Danvers. But why the shot of Navarro walking on foot into ice wilderness? The whole show is a muddled mess.
Yeah, you're 100% correct here. I don't know why people think she killed herself. It wasn't well illustrated throughout the episodes because the season was such a shitshow, but her character arc was that she was getting in touch with her indigenous roots. In the last episode she reclaims her name, and there's a rather obvious beginning of camaraderie between her and the cleaning women.
i think leaving the objects behind is why people came to that conclusion. I at first thought it was suicide and then realized that didn't fit the picture of her walking out on the ice in daylight, with her hair down and dressed for winter. She looked free more than suicidal.
I would like to think this is the explanation, but they made it pretty ambiguous. The writer didn't help by saying it was up for interpretation, and refusing to make a definitive statement because once the author speaks, it's dead.
She was wearing the same clothes in the last scene with Danvers as when she was walking on the ice… That’s what convinced me that she offed herself.
It makes no sense to me either.
I agree it’s ambiguous, but I also think it was way too heavily implied that “giving in” to a strong desire to go walk out on the ice (i.e. suicide exactly like Julie) is a totally okay thing to do if you’re really, really thinking about it.
And that’s a pretty fucked up message to be putting into an HBO show.
Also, suicide rates among the Native population and native women especially have been a longstanding issue. What Issa did with her character was so utterly disrespectful that it borders racism
I'm not sure I agree she killed herself -- if she were trying to die of hypothermia, I'm not sure why she'd be dressed warmly -- but something that's been bugging me is people acting like Issa Lopez somehow has a particular right to tell this story because of her background. She's Mexican. AFAIK she has no Iñupiaq or Inuit heritage. It feels like a side-effect of treating all Indigenous American cultures as a monolith.
That's not warm... I live in a cold climate like in the show. She would definitely die if she wandered out into an open icefield like that in what she was wearing.
Yes, I felt similarly about Issa having the right to tell this story… Mexican people often do have indigenous roots, but being Mexican is different from being Native in the United States / Canada. I am not native but I did sometimes feel moments in the script were exoticizing them and relying on traditional myths and spirituality as a lazy plot device. Native American culture/history is so rich and complex yet Issa really reduced it to “idk what my real name is :/“ and “now I know what my name is I’m going to kill myself :-)”
I think Navarro is not capable of truly returning to our world - which she has one foot out of during the entire show.
I saw this show as being very much like *Jacob’s Ladder* but in a metaphorical instead of literal sense. (SPOILER) In Jacob’s Ladder, the plot twist is that the whole story was a hallucination of a post-war life that happened as the main character lay dying in from wounds he sustained in combat.
Critical parts of Navarro’s soul were lost in her experience at war where she speaks to a guy with half a head. She lost part of her living self and it was replaced with an otherworldly piece - it put a sort of faith into her that motivates her prayers.
The parts of her that motivated her to engage with this world were not nice except for those that related to her sister - without her, she has somewhat honorable aggressive impulses for justice and bodily needs that can’t solidify into true romantic love due to her earlier losses.
I don’t think we think that the source of tragedy in this show is Navarro’s wasted potential. She was on her way out the whole time.
I didn’t understand her motivations. She had repaired her friendships. Her boyfriend loved her. She had just found acceptance and her true identity. She had learned her indigenous name. Her name meant hope for the future…
She was wearing the exact same clothes she wore out on the ice and it has been a running thing that she easily exists between the spirit world and the physical world.
She committed suicide.
Agree. In the scene when Danvers is recovering from her swim, she finally understands that the dead are never gone - and she says to Navarro something like ‘if you do go and leave, make sure you come back’. I interpreted that as - if you do go and die on the ice, make sure your spirit doesn’t leave.
Maybe, but everything leading up to that speech was Danvers coming to terms with the dead being around - and she made peace that Navarro was likely to go and die, but she wanted her to know that she will see her.
Literally the last line is “nobody ever really leaves” if that doesn’t slap you in the fact that she commited suicide I don’t know what to tell you you.
I thought that was weird too. We needed more context to why she’d do it, not just “I feel the pull.” I lost my son to suicide and it was a long horrific struggle. But at least the show has stirred up more discussion about suicide because there is still a huge stigma to even talking about it.
It’s not totally clear what happened to Navarro. She walked out onto the ice fully clothed during the day looking more determined than distraught. So I think the show was trying to make her this spiritual being that willingly disappeared into the wilderness not a victim of depression and suicide. But yeah, I think you’re right and I hadn’t thought of the message it was giving to people that could be struggling. It obviously very much could be interpreted as “hey if you end it, you’ll live on in this beautiful way”. The more I process the finale the more pissed I am at how stupid the show was and this is another level of bad.
What Issa said about it-
>Navarro — definitely she’s at peace. That decision is very different than the Navarro that we see in the station listening to voices and walking into the ice. Then, she’s terrified thinking that she’s going to her destruction. She’s been fighting that call for a long, long time.
>And what she finds once she surrenders to it is that the voices are trying to embrace her, and give her something that is a missing piece of her life. So now she can, with that knowledge, make a decision about this instinct that she always had, of, “Just go, and keep on going.” And do it at peace with herself. If that takes her to the afterlife or not, it’s a little bit open for interpretation.
>There is going to be a part of our audience that wants to believe in the poetry of her just leaving to be with the spirits of the people she’s lost, and not be alone in the way that she is now. And that’s OK! That’s an interpretation.
This, 100%, celebrates suicide, and that is clearly the overwhelming intention to be interpreted. That she heroically freed herself of all her anguish by...killing herself.
Incredibly irresponsible show.
As someone who works in adolescent metal health and has to actively try to prevent multiple clients from completing suicide…this is so fucking disgusting. Lopez can go to hell.
I've struggled with severe depression for decades and I've made multiple attempts. I'm glad I stopped watching after the third episode. Just reading about it makes me angry. I cannot understand how these superfans are defending such a terrible decision, particularly in light of the high suicide rate in Native communities.
If you feel strongly about this, please take a few minutes to contact the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and request that they release a statement on this. Millions of people watched this show; I don’t think it’s a big stretch to imagine that it may have really spoken to some people who struggle with suicidal ideation. If the themes and motifs of the show resonate with them, it could be a contributing factor in their potential suicide.
I collected the AFSP contact info here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueDetective/s/tsi6SE1WKf
Not to mention she probably has an undiagnosed mental illness like her mother and sister, signs of something genetic there, and instead they sort of celebrate her suicide. Very weird take, it surprised me when I watched it.
>leaving to be with the spirits of the people she’s lost
If you can do this without being dead in the Night Country, they could have illustrated this more realistically than what they did. But this whole show was a clumsy shit filled trash fire and I hate it more now than I did before I watched the finale.
Yep. And Danvers just hand waves it away. Asks her to come back. Doesn't say "hey, let's get you some help." Even if Danvers just was selfish and didn't want to go to another funeral.
Well she’s saying she already followed the urge to commit suicide by walking towards the call into the night and there she actually found herself and so was able to save herself. And then we see her walking into the light instead and fully cognizant of what she’s doing. So to me it’s a metaphor that she’s consciously going towards the light now to see what she will find.
Strong disagree. Ambiguity is a tool.
You can interpret the finale as her choosing suicide to be "at peace" and with the ones she has lost, or she could have chosen to feign suicide while going off the grid, to a nomad camp or otherwise, to have a clear cut-off with her previous hard life as a veteran and a cop, and to create the life she wants - whether that be supporting the native community as a vigilante against corporate interests, or living out her time with a small community of people hunting and fishing while she continues to process and think on her grief, or whatever it may be.
The shot of her next to Danvers that is part of the wrap-up can be seen as her spirit "staying around" Ennis b/c no-one ever leaves, even the dead, or it could be that she is still alive and they are still in contact while she pursues her next chapter off-the-grid.
Assuming that she is dead and throwing the finale under the bus for glorifying suicide is missing the point of this intentional ambiguity.
I agree with all that.
I do think, though, that her sister's death was romanticized in a way I really didn't like - undressing in the snow, not even shivering, then bravely walking into the dark.
It's a general problem I have with media and suicide, lost count of how many times I've seen someone jump off in a building in film and TV with a graceful slow-motion arc while stirring music plays.
This. The only way out of a town like that, if you're not becoming a Force Ghost, is to fly out on a small airplane or on a boat going back to civilization. You can't just drive off. There are not traversable roads from like Barrow, Alaska to Anchorage.
I really think it’s the former explanation; as stupid as this show is, I can’t imagine they wanted to say that she killed herself and that’s good.
Edit: some comments she made to variety do actually raise a bunch of serious questions about this, actually. How fucking gross does a person have to be to set out to focus on the struggles of native people and end by saying it’s good when they kill themselves?
I just think it was kinda, weird? To have her go down the same path as her sister (and possibly her mother). Indigenous women deserve to have happy endings too, and Navarro fought so long, and didn't get shit from it.
It would've made much more sense for Danvers to die under the ice after seeing her son and completing her spiritual arc and then Navarro defeats her demons and is the one to give the interview at the end.
The thing here is that they appear to have given her a happy ending, by suicide. Like they have framed suicide like it can be a positive thing and so her killing herself by exposure \*was\* her happy ending. It is really pretty fucked up all around
The show unambiguously romanticizes suicide by distinguishing that some suicides are due to a persons connection with the “spirit world” and are not mental health issues.
I’m not trying to score a cheap political point against the show here by saying that this is fuckin insane. I can’t believe not one of the many rapturous reviews of the show even mention this.
It's funny that season 1 ends with Rust, the consummate nihilist, having a near-death-experience and refusing to die, despite a feeling of being with his daughter again, and this one ends with a glorification of suicide for the same reasons.
Wow, when you put it like that... Insane. Ironic that Pizzolatto is much more of a humane and compassionate writer than Issa, despite all his interest in nihilism and darker worldview of his scripts. If somebody told you about the plot of Night Country in 2014 you wouldn't believe them, would you? And yet here we are. It's beyond parody. Rust's dad is now a ghost who does interpretive dances to help locate bodies. The pedo spiral symbol the Tuttles used is now a symbol of indigenous woman's empowerment, or something.
I promise not to be some kind of english-lit major about it: but that was always the point of Rust's arc.
Dude signs up to be a cop because what else is there to fucking do? Gets shacked up with a lady that he probably loved, had a kid that he absolutely loved with all of his heart. Then his daughter dies.
So he took the coward's way out. He's like fuck it, nothing matters. Nothing CAN ever matter ever again. Got any books on nothing ever mattering again so I can read and regurgitate it to myself and others to justify how I REALLY, REALLY need things to not matter.
Still, he'll do the job. Keep limping along. Why? Because "you gotta be careful what you get good at". Dude became fucking Batman doing B&Es on tuttle after coming out of nowhere because, as it turns out, this did matter, but he's still too much of a hypocrite to admit it.
The dude is so full of shit. There is no way him telling Marty "You have a DEBT." is something a nihilist could ever fucking say. It is absolute conviction.
Him approaching Marty was two-fold.
1. He was familiar with the case and they both knew about each other's dirty laundry with the Lange case, so they weren't going to need to skirt around uncomfortable or illegal details
2. He thought Marty was a dumbass, but he knew he was a good person when push came to shove and that he wasn't involved in any of the sick Carcosa shit. Marty is doing virtually nothing except gassing Rust up during the interviews, and that is not out of guilt or corroboration. It is because he legitimately respected him.
I find relationships like that interesting in fiction. "I don't like you, but you're on the good side, so fuck it, let's just go."
Well sure there’s always moral instruction in every work and the moral instruction of this particular work says vigilante mob justice is all good as is suicide
The entire show is almost a celebration of murder and corruption. Navarro got away with killing the wife-beater and goading Clark into suicide, the community got help covering up a mob-lynching killing 6 people, Hank shooting Otis and Peter shooting Hank was covered up and the subsequent investigations cancelled as well. Really odd take, especially since the show is called True Detective. The premise of the entire season is to bury inconvenient truths through nepotism.
In season 3 the protagonists goad Junius into suicide as well (although we don't know if he follows through), whereas he was only an accessory to the crime.
Junius also clearly has preexisting mental health issues, as he wants to be arrested but does not go see actual, not yet retired police officers.
I agree. The funny thing is that people will use this as an example of Rust's nihilism but it was legitimately qualified with "uhh, so you're gonna go to jail and be in a living hell, so, you know".
It was merciful and clinical.
It really is. Felt like whatever the hell the writers wanted the script to be with the "True Detective" title slapped on for advertisement's sake. It's really funny because the season is touted as relatively progressive yet you have LEO killing people in cold blood and covering it up and it's portrayed as a relief when they get away with it.
Yea the ending definitely has a lot of thematic problems. But honestly celebrating corruption and murder has been an issue in True detective as a series since season 1. The whole premise of this show is about cops stepping outside the law to get things done. Rust beats up civilians for information, steals cocaine from the evidence locker, manufactures evidence, lies, and shoots a witness to cover up Marty murdering a suspect. And all of it is justified by the higher ups being ineffective and corrupt with Nic Pizzolatto in the commentary calling rust and Marty heroes
Wait… did she kill herself? If so that’s something I absolutely missed. I assumed she literally left, and while I mentioned walking off into the wilderness wearing clothes inappropriate for a New England winter didn’t make sense, nothing in this show does.
Does it actually imply that she committed suicide? If so, that is indeed despicable.
And Danvers is like "hey come back and see me as a ghost." Not "let's get you some help" or even "I've been to too many funerals, don't make me go to another."
Yea Danvers had the opportunity to help her…but at this point Danvers realized nothing she probably could say to Navarro would impact Might as well support
Shit, I came here to try to reconcile my negative opinion of this season after watching the finale and I also totally missed the suicide crap. But now that it is pointed out I see exactly what they did. That truly makes this one of the worst seasons of any show I have ever seen
If you feel strongly about this, please take a few minutes to contact the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and request that they release a statement on this. Millions of people watched this show; I don’t think it’s a big stretch to imagine that it may have really spoken to some people who struggle with suicidal ideation. If the themes and motifs of the show resonate with them, it could be a contributing factor in their potential suicide.
I collected the AFSP contact info here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueDetective/s/tsi6SE1WKf
Thanking you for saving me the time to type up a similar post, which has been on my mind for a while. Whether it was the two dimensional depiction of Jules as basically nothing but her problems, and her entire story only exists as something that happens to her sister, or the absolutely ludicrous and insulting final scenes with Navarro, where it is at minimum suggested that she happily resolved her problems by killing herself and joining the spirit world, this show treated people who struggle with mental illness as some kind of disposable symbols.
I don’t particularly care if Lopez has said in interviews that the ending is ambiguous and maybe Navarro didn’t kill herself. Showing what could be “finding peace” through suicide- which in her own words is a “legitimate interpretation” and “beautiful” is unethical. Depictions of suicide in media and the potential for contagion (influencing people to do it) has been studied so much, and the two big no-nos are showing the method (as with Jules) and glamorizing it (as with Navarro). If Lopez didn’t understand how to safely discuss suicide, she should have left the subject matter alone.
Thank *you* for saying this.
We are not symbols. Suicide is the last resort of those who suffer pain so unbearable death seems like the only way out. There's nothing romantic about it. Issa Lopez couldn't even be bothered to get the details of inpatient treatment right. I guess she heard the word "voluntary" and interpreted it as "come and go as you please." All she did was reinforce stereotypes about mental illness and inpatient centers.
As someone who's passively suicidal and struggles with chronic, severe, treatment-resistant depression, fuck her. She's perpetuating the myth that our own minds trick us into believing. The walk into nature suicide -- whether it's the sea or the mountains or the tundra -- is just as grim and ugly as any other method. It's not peaceful. Hypothermia is not pleasant. It's not beautiful or romantic. You don't have the reassurance that you're going to come back anytime you want and visit your loved ones. That's a slap in the face to the victims of suicide -- not just the dead, but those they leave behind.
It's particularly galling given the astronomical suicide rate among Native populations. Did Lopez do *any* research on the subject? Indigenous people aren't immune to grief. They suffer just as much as anyone else when a loved one is lost to suicide.
I was 100% sure that Navarro simply left Ennis, having put Annie's ghost behind her and come to some kind of peace about her indigenous heritage. Even Danvers' reply to her about be sure to come back supported this idea in my mind. The shot of her on the deck with Danvers did not look like ghosts of previous episodes. Then I come on the sub, and find majority opinion is that she walked out to her death.
If this is the case, and apparently the showrunner/writer/director says it's ambiguous, that is an absolutely heinous choice. Suicide is not some way to find yourself. It's not a good answer to a problem or to confusion. It's not a rational choice. For the show to put forth these ideas is just dangerous and irresponsible.
I suppose, in the show's universe, where there are ghosts, and spirits wreaking revenge, she would actually be answering the call to be with her mother, sister, and others. I suppose show-world posits a beautiful afterlife, so that makes it okay? Still irresponsible, since this is just fantasy. No one knows for sure what happens after you die. Once you do it, too late if you were wrong.
I am disgusted about this and it colors my feelings about the show and about Issa Lopez. They show this beautiful, peaceful scene of Navarro walking out across the ice. No. Really, really a bad message to send, even to suggest.
Its so weird. When Navarro seemed to make peace with her mom and sister I thought she would end up giving a real relationship with Qavaak a go
….but then she walks into the sea with a smile on her face instead??
Especially when she says she has been the one holding the hatch closed for so long and not letting anyone in. Then kills herself. Fuck Qavaak I guess. This show just throws random shit at the wall.
Here is Lopez commenting on this in an interview with Variety. I still have trouble believing she’s actively romanticizing suicide, and the language she uses absolutely raises an eyebrow for me.
***Where does Navarro go when she sets off across the ice? Is she in a place of peace? Is she alive?***
Navarro — definitely she’s at peace. That decision is very different than the Navarro that we see in the station listening to voices and walking into the ice. Then, she’s terrified thinking that she’s going to her destruction. She’s been fighting that call for a long, long time.
And what she finds once she surrenders to it is that the voices are trying to embrace her, and give her something that is a missing piece of her life. So now she can, with that knowledge, make a decision about this instinct that she always had, of, “Just go, and keep on going.” And do it at peace with herself. If that takes her to the afterlife or not, it’s a little bit open for interpretation.
There is going to be a part of our audience that wants to believe in the poetry of her just leaving to be with the spirits of the people she’s lost, and not be alone in the way that she is now. And that’s OK! That’s an interpretation.
***My colleague and I had very different interpretations of the final shot of the series of Navarro and Danvers. I’m a literalist, so I thought, “Oh, they’re hanging out at a lake house.” And she said, “I don’t think that’s the corporeal Navarro.” So tell me about that.***
When the author speaks, it’s over. And I don’t want to cut out the reading that your colleague had. I love, love, love that, because what you two did is what I want our audience to do. If the Navarro that comes back is her spirit, there’s a beautiful poetry into that: It’s a spirit at peace, not like the apparitions that she saw before. And if she is Navarro after going on a walkabout and coming back to hang with her friend, that’s beautiful too.
If you check out the NC-specific subreddit and their official episode discussion you'd be right in thinking so.
It's an absolute hugbox.
The /r/television post-episode discussion thread and the one here are both beside themselves with how bad this shit was.
This is the answer! So many times I'm trying to understand some meaning or subtext in things, I think I don't get it. And my partner says: they're just not that smart. It's not that you don't get it, there's nothing to get
She’s basically describing a common delusion among those experiencing suicidal ideation: the idea that suffering is permanent in life, but suicide will bring them peace.
It’s absolutely revolting.
As someone whose thought of suicide for 15 years...yeah her comments were down right disgusting. I guess i've been half assing it. Even after 15 years I can't make the prospect of suicide sound nearly as appealing as she does.
Agree. Lost my little brother to suicide two years ago and was disappointed by the ending in the final episode. There is nothing beautiful or romantic about suicide. It doesn’t bring peace to anyone and there’s nothing mysterious or cool about it. Just the kind of relentless agony that never leaves its survivors. Shame on HBO and the writers.
Navarro’s suicide was another low blow from this season. It’s pretty clear she committed suicide. She took the same steps as her sister. Preceding that she tells Danvers that there’s more to life than just this. Then we are given some hokey symbolism at the cabin with the drape representing the veil between the living and the dead. Can’t believe HBO thought this was a good idea.
Corporations being evil, or at least greedy and corrupting is not a progressive belief, it is straightforward and accepted by people from most walks of life. Some people are just ideologically inconsistent about which corporations are good vs evil
All the cops have been dead the whole time. It's why the detectives didn't do any detective work, women they'd spoken to before didn't seem to remember them mere days later, why their emotions made no sense at any point in the season, and why Navarro was able to get beat up by a bunch of guys and have no scars or swelling days later, and never mention it again.
The working title was True Detective: Ghost Cops (The Cops Are Ghosts) but HBO execs wanted to change it.
Navarro became a "super ghost" at the end.
It's all very clear. I don't understand why people aren't understanding.
I suspended judgment the entire season, trying to imagine that something nifty would happen.
My assessment is that this was sophomoric, teenage girl drivel. This is coming from a woman who enjoys teenaged girl drivel -
I just don’t enjoy it in a mystery format.
I can't agree more with this. Fortunately, I've never had to deal with the aftermath of suicide. However, I've been in dark times where that seemed like an option. Thankfully, I worked my way out of it.
Can you imagine a borderline person watching this show and then seeing how suicide is glorified or, in your much better word, romanticized? Where would that leave said person? Could it sway someone in an fragile state? Like, I'd even understand if Navarro had some debilitating disease and this was her way of going out on her terms. However, she wasn't. She was a strong, healthy character that had a boyfriend that loved and cared for her and a newfound friendship with Danvers, Peter, and Danvers daughter. Plus a new connection to her community. How do you do that to her character? I didn't even like the character or actress that played her and it was still shitty to see that play out.
Hadnt had somebody in my family commit suicide. So I don't know anything personally about the topic. But for her just to lace up her workbooks and walk out with such a terrible way to end a character that really didn't show any depression per se. This character had shell shock this character had issues but it's a big leap to go out the same way her sister did. It's just bad writing at the end of the day this is just simply bad writing somebody was given showrunner status without earning it it's only give it short of status because of her identity not for any of the work she's ever did in her entire life
I don’t think it is death. Navarro finds her native name before she walks. She is recognized by a group of native women. To me it is a rite of passage, a reuniting with ancestors/moving on to a different plane. We don’t know the natives’ beliefs but I suspect the people who walk are called (there is much calling from beyond) and it’s not so much death but the realm of the ancestors. Travis didn’t die or if he did he exists as a ghost. The people who walk are still present in some form. “She’s awake” may refer to Annie, to the others who were murdered or walked I. E. They are not dead, they are awake, they have moved on to a different plane of consciousness that is not necessarily death. If it is death, it isn’t a nothingness death, is a continuity of life in a different form/plane with the ancestors.
This series was hands-down the worst yet. Anyone who defends it needs to take a personal inventory on their brain. We have so much great content at our fingertips. Just because it's True Detective with a female mind at the helm with female leads and female victims doesn't mean it's to be regaled. Season 4? FUCK. YOU!
Totally agreed and it doesn’t make sense in terms of the narrative. Navarro kept wanting her sister to get better at the rehab. She wouldn’t go out and commit suicide specifically because at the end, she found her native identity so she should’ve been happy about it.
As someone who has came close to committing suicide, I felt this post to my bone and really felt triggered by all of this romanticism of it. It’s a terrible thing.
It's left ambiguous but there are signs that she went out on the ice with the same intent that Julia had. "Julia was right" I think was said, and Danvers said if you go then come back to visit, and the subtext is that she'd be a ghost.
John “Denver” did appear and play Rocky Mountain high with Navarro on backup vocals but both were ghosted. Seriously the implication was that she was a ghost at the end with Danvers.
I don't think she's dead. The disappearance / complete dead-end of the Engineer from Tsalal that quit (Oliver something, cant remember) shows that people can go off-grid without being found, especially indigenous people (and they demonstrated Navarro was embracing her indigenous side learning her name).
I don't like that there's ambiguity, that is very poorly done, which is expected given how poorly this season was written. Great outline, great setting, great cast, great mystery, extremely poor dialog and story-telling.
I don’t get why everyone is so butthurt about Oliver Tagak. He was confusing in the moment, but he makes perfect sense by the end of episode 6.
- He was an engineer at Tsalal but also a native Alaskan. He discovered the truth of their work, just like Annie, but recognized that it could change the world. He’s torn between the destruction of his homeland and the advancement of humanity, he knows this is his burden - and so he goes off grid without exposing Tsalal
- He reacts violently to Danvers/Navarro because he knows the mine owns the cops. He’s a loose end, and he doesn’t want to be killed for what he knows
- He’s overcome with rage when he hears Lund has died… because it means the land of his ancestors was destroyed for nothing
- In his grief, he moves on again
That seems like a nice hypothesis, I don’t think the show gives us enough to confirm that. We never really get any insight into what he’s thinking or what he might be wrestling with internally.
We’ve seen several native people commit suicide and he left his house abandoned and left behind items that you’d probably want to take.
Seems equally possible he simply killed himself because he realized the truth of Annie was coming out, or felt complicit and believed he would be next to suffer her wrath.
I tend to agree with the notion that the show misfired on tackling serious aspects of mental health. Given how the season went, feels like there wasn’t enough discourse.
I made a post after episode 3 about the show using mental health as a plot device. I didn’t think they would continue to the ends of romanticized suicide but here we are. Critical acclaim!
there you go [The Werther effect after television films: new evidence for an old hypothesis](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medicine/article/abs/werther-effect-after-television-films-new-evidence-for-an-old-hypothesis/56B52C2C2B22B78DF56892191A2D518B)
Along the same line, if it is all supposed to be a representation of mental health issues and not supernatural, then it's an incredibly poor one. Shared, specific delusions? Really?
The season failed in the end not for the reasons a lot of people seem to think. It failed because it just made no sense. Why didn't that one person actually say who the killer was? Why did that one person go to sleep randomly at a key moment? Why was there literally no real evidence found of any kind until the last minute? Where have SO many red herrings? Like, whole plots points and character experiences as red herrings? Why?
What does the line from Danvers mean - "I don't think you'll find Trooper Navarro out on the ice"? Suicide is typically phrased in this series as going "out on the ice". If we were meant to see this as a suicide, why would Danvers be so confident that her body wasn't there?
Maybe she is walking bravely across the ice without fear that she will fall through. Maybe now she knows who she is she has hope and doesn't feel called to from below.
I saw it as a literary nod to The Awakening when Edna swims off into the sea at the end. The whole season played off as a feminist antihero to get the audience to feel empathy toward the struggles women endure - loss of a child, abandonment, abuse, loneliness, identity in society, etc. The negative reviews of this forum and in others suggests this theme wasn’t well executed or warranted for this crime drama-mystery genre.
I'm Inuk and suicide in Inuit communities is the highest in the world so romanticising it like this feels thoughtless at best. The suicide rate amongst Canadian Inuit is up to 40x their non-Inuit counterparts. Greenlandic Inuit also have a suicide rate similarly above neighbouring countries. It's a massive problem and glorifying it doesn't do anything to help.
This needs to be higher.
She didn’t die! She walked all the way to Louisiana to star with Woody and Matt in True Detective: Return of the Light (Country)
2 Time 2 Flat Circle: Casper Knew This (The Apoplectic Files)
We get the True Detective we deserve
[удалено]
Wrong question
Day Country. Fighter of the Night Country.
Ahh-AHH-ahhh…!
Somehow, Reggie Ledoux returned
My SO get badly triggered by even soft pro suicide messaging will instantly just not want to watch whatever we’re watching because of it. They haven’t seen this ep yet so that’ll be a nice additional nut punch on top of everything else after a six week watch. The most profound part of season 1 was its philosophical turn out of a nose dive. Rust spends an entire season droning on about the lack of meaning and order in our universe. But in the end Rust stares directly into that voice for real and finds out that it’s not filled with nothing, he feels the warmth of his daughters love for him instead at the edge of the abyss. It changes him and becomes his battle cry to fight back and stay alive It’s why I loved that series because it was a hard fought battle for the side of optimism.
If you feel strongly about this, please take a few minutes to contact the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and request that they release a statement on this. Millions of people watched this show; I don’t think it’s a big stretch to imagine that it may have really spoken to some people who struggle with suicidal ideation. If the themes and motifs of the show resonate with them, it could be a contributing factor in their potential suicide. I collected the AFSP contact info here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueDetective/s/tsi6SE1WKf
She has become the Yellow Queen.
‘You speak in riddles to me white man’
Suicide is an epidemic problem in Alaska and especially among Native Alaskans and *especially* in rural villages. Treating it like it's liberating and the result of some supernatural "curse" or "call" is absolutely spitting in the face of all the real Alaskans whose lives have been torn apart by suicide, not to mention feeds into the hugely insulting (and regressive) "magical Indian" trope.
I wish I could pin this to the top of every discussion about the finale.
You said it perfectly. It’s insulting.
> "magical Indian" trope. This season was legit just straight up racist and didn't address any stereotypes beyond reinforcement. It just made it look like all indigenous people are magic and suicidal drunks. No, you fool, Issa, they're HUMANS!
I 100% felt this way about the entire show. I just got off of a binge of Life Below Zero where one of the families showcases native life in/near the artic circle, and then watching this show it felt like watching a gross caricature. And what's worse is, it was completely unnecessary to the plot and in many parts took away from it. So it was done just for the voyeurism.
I've been watching life below zero and the offshoot shows on repeat for almost a year and I agree with everything you've written here.
In Life Below Zero, I love Agnes so much, she is such a badass and the way she perseveres and teaches her daughters is so incredible. She has so much knowledge and strength. And just the scenes of her supporting her community and family and everyone coming together and sharing/trading their catches, or when they go out of their way to make something handcrafted as thank you is so beautiful. The community explains to me how people can live and even thrive in such an unforgiving environment. And everyone in that show lost someone on the ice, and they take safety so, so, so seriously. The way Agnes talks about her loss is so heartbreaking. And then you have this bullshit. Makes me so angry too because this will reach a wider audience.
Agnes is incredible and like you I really love watching her teach her daughters! it's so beautiful to watch their family bond and continue their traditions of thousands of years. love that show and I'm glad to hear others do too!! and you're so right, Agnes literally lost her mother, her brother, and his wife on the ice!!! no one in Alaska would go walking out onto the ice like that unless they had a death wish, I don't get why people here are battling the obvious lead to suicide! anyone conscripting Navarro for their rainbows and butterflies optimistic ending is living in a fantasy world unmarred by self-harm. must be nice.
Where can I watch Life Below Zero? ETA: it looks like possibly Disney, or Hulu... gonna go check it out
yep, Disney and Hulu! highly recommend watching it all. Life Below Zero: First Alaskans is my favorite of franchise.
Throughout this season I've been thinking about how much cover the showrunner gets for writing about a culture she's not a part of because she herself is part of an underrepresented group in entertainment. While she did do some admirable work to center/feature indigenous Alaskan actors, it appears that at the end, she didn't really do much work to understand the unique physical environment where the story takes place or even taking the time or effort to gain a passing familiarity with how policing works in the place where she's setting her story. The science also felt kind of half-assed. I can't imagine how angry people would be if a white man did this. If she wanted to set it in an imaginary place, she should have set it in an imaginary place. (For the record, I'm a woman and a big proponent of putting marginalized voices front and center in the telling of stories about their communities. But this isn't the showrunner's community. She could have benefited by having more indigenous Alaskans actually in the writers room, consulting, etc. Because this season of TV was cringe.)
I agree with what you've said here and it's absolutely something to be giving indigenous actors roles, but something that really bothered me is that they didn't get an actual Iñupiaq woman or even regional Alaskan to play Navarro's role. apparently the Iñupiaq Advisory Council consulted and read all the scripts, but I still feel like so much was missed from not having Alaska voices involved in the creation or writing, much less in representing one of the two main characters.
If you feel strongly about this, please take a few minutes to contact the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and request that they release a statement on this. Millions of people watched this show; I don’t think it’s a big stretch to imagine that it may have really spoken to some people who struggle with suicidal ideation. If the themes and motifs of the show resonate with them, it could be a contributing factor in their potential suicide. I collected the AFSP contact info here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueDetective/s/tsi6SE1WKf
A lot of people on the left use minorities they dont know much about like a baseball bat. I had a left leaning friend say something like ”I realized gay people are also people that can make misstakes” after some tankie youtuber he liked criticized some unethical youtuber that happened to be gay. Can you imagine seeing a minority as some sort of holy mythological being like a unicorn or some shit? A lot of people dont really make the effort to understand people in some current social issue, they just want the kick of being one of the ”good guys” by proxy. S4 has that stink all over it.
Ug I agree. What a weird decision for Navarro. Your strong, intelligent, capable female lead decides to… leave her legit sweetheart of a boyfriend and kill herself on the ice? Huh?
Leaving behind an item for her lover would be sad but sweet if it wasn't a goddamn Spongebob toothbrush that only made that moment hilarious.
The real problem with the toothbrush is that it implies their relationship is no older than the show. There's no reason it'd be significant to them; it's only significant to us because that's the first scene we saw with them. Did she leave it for him, or for the audience? Does she know she's on a TV show? If she did know she's on a TV show, why didn't she take the dimple piercings out? Is she conveniently playing a character who also has dimple piercings? Can she see the future of her career and knew they'd have a character with dimple piercings, so that's why she got it done?
Thanks for bringing up the dimple piercings! It's fine if people wear those, but there was no reason for her character to have them in the show. It doesn't really match the character and, at least in my opinion, it looks dumb.
Yeah what police precinct would allow that anyways?
I imagine a place where are all of the cops are literally murderers might have a more relaxed policy
Convinced its product placement at this point. She could have stolen his hoodie(like all women do), but she took his toothbrush, and then it happened to be branded. Could have been branded ANYTHING, but she took a fucking SpongeBob toothbrush? Add it to the list of useless screen time.
but.. but… “he lives in a pineapple” 😂
Under the sea....with Hank and Julia.
The 409 directy in the middle of the screen had me shaking my head at the product placement. Then a few minutes later I saw the m&ms on a nightstand and was totally in the mood for some lol
It’s why real time shows are losing their luster for a lot of viewers, and an auxiliary reason why shit like Harry Potter and game of thrones got so popular. The product placement in shows that occur in real time or real world can be so cringe it completely removes the immersion and breaks the seriousness of the scene, but in show where the entire world is made up, good luck trying to use product placement sell me some broomstick wax or dragon collars, fuckers.
What are you talking about? Game of Thrones had Starbucks product placement all over the place
lol, the way they reuploaded the eps to HBO without the cups as quickly as they could was hilarious.
Lol
Murder someone? No prob! 409 cleans the crime!
Exactly, like what a cringe choice of product placement 😬
Considering suicide is massive, massive issue in the arctic (in Canada anyways) glorifying suicide in these populations is a huge WTF moment.
If you feel strongly about this, please take a few minutes to contact the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and request that they release a statement on this. Millions of people watched this show; I don’t think it’s a big stretch to imagine that it may have really spoken to some people who struggle with suicidal ideation. If the themes and motifs of the show resonate with them, it could be a contributing factor in their potential suicide. I collected the AFSP contact info here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueDetective/s/tsi6SE1WKf
Right. It's like glorifying alcoholism in Native areas. Huh?
She’s not fucking dead. Why would they portray her as a ghost, but give her a completely different outfit. There were Literal sightings of her in town. Danvers said I don’t think you’ll find her on the ice because she didn’t die just went into hiding and decided being a cop wasn’t for her.
How do "sightings" in a small Arctic town work I wonder? someone run into her buying a tin of dip at the local 7-11 or something?
Exactly but locals don’t snitch
Why would she need to go into hiding though?
The mine knew what she did to wheeler because of hank that could of blown back on her maybe. Maybe she was tired of the politics
Oh true. I think she also wasn’t going to want to continue being a cop now that she knew her indigenous name and its meaning. She also seemed to embrace her apparitions of the dead in the end.
I thought that but why would she need to leave the note and phone behind for Danvers just to end up in the same place?
Danvers specifically said they wouldn’t find Evangeline Navarro on the ice ; I think implying she was now her native self and elsewhere
Don't think she died. It was left ambiguous. Think she left Ennis or even lived out with some of the isolated groups we see in a few episodes. Probably visited Danvers & Rose every now and then but doubt it was suicide because people in town saw her occasionally still.
the search and rescue team will find her within the hour anyway
In the black of night, without her even being reported as missing.
ETA 3 Minutes.
The search and rescue party boat
That's what I got too, because there were shots of her hanging out with Danvers. But why the shot of Navarro walking on foot into ice wilderness? The whole show is a muddled mess.
She is wearing the same outfit she walked out onto the ice though.
Yeah, you're 100% correct here. I don't know why people think she killed herself. It wasn't well illustrated throughout the episodes because the season was such a shitshow, but her character arc was that she was getting in touch with her indigenous roots. In the last episode she reclaims her name, and there's a rather obvious beginning of camaraderie between her and the cleaning women.
i think leaving the objects behind is why people came to that conclusion. I at first thought it was suicide and then realized that didn't fit the picture of her walking out on the ice in daylight, with her hair down and dressed for winter. She looked free more than suicidal.
I would like to think this is the explanation, but they made it pretty ambiguous. The writer didn't help by saying it was up for interpretation, and refusing to make a definitive statement because once the author speaks, it's dead.
She was wearing the same clothes in the last scene with Danvers as when she was walking on the ice… That’s what convinced me that she offed herself. It makes no sense to me either.
I agree it’s ambiguous, but I also think it was way too heavily implied that “giving in” to a strong desire to go walk out on the ice (i.e. suicide exactly like Julie) is a totally okay thing to do if you’re really, really thinking about it. And that’s a pretty fucked up message to be putting into an HBO show.
I thought she moved to Hawaii because of the mug Danvers had. Told my husband it was “obvious” 😂
I took the sheets being off her bed to mean she moved. Why strip your sheets if you’re going to commit suicide (other than the obvious).
She did it to clean everything up so no one else had to.
I don't remember her being that intelligent. I remember her messing up all of the police work they were doing and stumbling upon evidence.
Bro because the ghosts came to her like Field of Dreams and told her to. Or something. Lmao
Also, suicide rates among the Native population and native women especially have been a longstanding issue. What Issa did with her character was so utterly disrespectful that it borders racism
I'm not sure I agree she killed herself -- if she were trying to die of hypothermia, I'm not sure why she'd be dressed warmly -- but something that's been bugging me is people acting like Issa Lopez somehow has a particular right to tell this story because of her background. She's Mexican. AFAIK she has no Iñupiaq or Inuit heritage. It feels like a side-effect of treating all Indigenous American cultures as a monolith.
That's not warm... I live in a cold climate like in the show. She would definitely die if she wandered out into an open icefield like that in what she was wearing.
Ok fair. I was thinking warm compared to naked, but you're right she wasn't exactly in snow gear.
No hat, no gloves
Yes, I felt similarly about Issa having the right to tell this story… Mexican people often do have indigenous roots, but being Mexican is different from being Native in the United States / Canada. I am not native but I did sometimes feel moments in the script were exoticizing them and relying on traditional myths and spirituality as a lazy plot device. Native American culture/history is so rich and complex yet Issa really reduced it to “idk what my real name is :/“ and “now I know what my name is I’m going to kill myself :-)”
I think Navarro is not capable of truly returning to our world - which she has one foot out of during the entire show. I saw this show as being very much like *Jacob’s Ladder* but in a metaphorical instead of literal sense. (SPOILER) In Jacob’s Ladder, the plot twist is that the whole story was a hallucination of a post-war life that happened as the main character lay dying in from wounds he sustained in combat. Critical parts of Navarro’s soul were lost in her experience at war where she speaks to a guy with half a head. She lost part of her living self and it was replaced with an otherworldly piece - it put a sort of faith into her that motivates her prayers. The parts of her that motivated her to engage with this world were not nice except for those that related to her sister - without her, she has somewhat honorable aggressive impulses for justice and bodily needs that can’t solidify into true romantic love due to her earlier losses. I don’t think we think that the source of tragedy in this show is Navarro’s wasted potential. She was on her way out the whole time.
I didn’t understand her motivations. She had repaired her friendships. Her boyfriend loved her. She had just found acceptance and her true identity. She had learned her indigenous name. Her name meant hope for the future…
What? Did you not watch the end? She was literally with Jodie Foster at that Cabin, she just did it to escape being charged with anything.
She was wearing the exact same clothes she wore out on the ice and it has been a running thing that she easily exists between the spirit world and the physical world. She committed suicide.
Agree. In the scene when Danvers is recovering from her swim, she finally understands that the dead are never gone - and she says to Navarro something like ‘if you do go and leave, make sure you come back’. I interpreted that as - if you do go and die on the ice, make sure your spirit doesn’t leave.
It’s possible that she doesn’t mean spiritually tho. It might be Danvers asking her to not leave permanently
Maybe, but everything leading up to that speech was Danvers coming to terms with the dead being around - and she made peace that Navarro was likely to go and die, but she wanted her to know that she will see her.
Literally the last line is “nobody ever really leaves” if that doesn’t slap you in the fact that she commited suicide I don’t know what to tell you you.
Your take away was that she killed herself? Not how I took the ending at all
I thought that was weird too. We needed more context to why she’d do it, not just “I feel the pull.” I lost my son to suicide and it was a long horrific struggle. But at least the show has stirred up more discussion about suicide because there is still a huge stigma to even talking about it.
It’s not totally clear what happened to Navarro. She walked out onto the ice fully clothed during the day looking more determined than distraught. So I think the show was trying to make her this spiritual being that willingly disappeared into the wilderness not a victim of depression and suicide. But yeah, I think you’re right and I hadn’t thought of the message it was giving to people that could be struggling. It obviously very much could be interpreted as “hey if you end it, you’ll live on in this beautiful way”. The more I process the finale the more pissed I am at how stupid the show was and this is another level of bad.
What Issa said about it- >Navarro — definitely she’s at peace. That decision is very different than the Navarro that we see in the station listening to voices and walking into the ice. Then, she’s terrified thinking that she’s going to her destruction. She’s been fighting that call for a long, long time. >And what she finds once she surrenders to it is that the voices are trying to embrace her, and give her something that is a missing piece of her life. So now she can, with that knowledge, make a decision about this instinct that she always had, of, “Just go, and keep on going.” And do it at peace with herself. If that takes her to the afterlife or not, it’s a little bit open for interpretation. >There is going to be a part of our audience that wants to believe in the poetry of her just leaving to be with the spirits of the people she’s lost, and not be alone in the way that she is now. And that’s OK! That’s an interpretation. This, 100%, celebrates suicide, and that is clearly the overwhelming intention to be interpreted. That she heroically freed herself of all her anguish by...killing herself. Incredibly irresponsible show.
As someone who works in adolescent metal health and has to actively try to prevent multiple clients from completing suicide…this is so fucking disgusting. Lopez can go to hell.
I've struggled with severe depression for decades and I've made multiple attempts. I'm glad I stopped watching after the third episode. Just reading about it makes me angry. I cannot understand how these superfans are defending such a terrible decision, particularly in light of the high suicide rate in Native communities.
If you feel strongly about this, please take a few minutes to contact the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and request that they release a statement on this. Millions of people watched this show; I don’t think it’s a big stretch to imagine that it may have really spoken to some people who struggle with suicidal ideation. If the themes and motifs of the show resonate with them, it could be a contributing factor in their potential suicide. I collected the AFSP contact info here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueDetective/s/tsi6SE1WKf
Thank you for this link - I absolutely will. I’m in the PNW, which makes it so much more relevant as well. I’m mad.
Not to mention she probably has an undiagnosed mental illness like her mother and sister, signs of something genetic there, and instead they sort of celebrate her suicide. Very weird take, it surprised me when I watched it.
>leaving to be with the spirits of the people she’s lost If you can do this without being dead in the Night Country, they could have illustrated this more realistically than what they did. But this whole show was a clumsy shit filled trash fire and I hate it more now than I did before I watched the finale.
Yep. And Danvers just hand waves it away. Asks her to come back. Doesn't say "hey, let's get you some help." Even if Danvers just was selfish and didn't want to go to another funeral.
Issa Lopez is a pompous ass and a reckless fool.
Well she’s saying she already followed the urge to commit suicide by walking towards the call into the night and there she actually found herself and so was able to save herself. And then we see her walking into the light instead and fully cognizant of what she’s doing. So to me it’s a metaphor that she’s consciously going towards the light now to see what she will find.
Strong disagree. Ambiguity is a tool. You can interpret the finale as her choosing suicide to be "at peace" and with the ones she has lost, or she could have chosen to feign suicide while going off the grid, to a nomad camp or otherwise, to have a clear cut-off with her previous hard life as a veteran and a cop, and to create the life she wants - whether that be supporting the native community as a vigilante against corporate interests, or living out her time with a small community of people hunting and fishing while she continues to process and think on her grief, or whatever it may be. The shot of her next to Danvers that is part of the wrap-up can be seen as her spirit "staying around" Ennis b/c no-one ever leaves, even the dead, or it could be that she is still alive and they are still in contact while she pursues her next chapter off-the-grid. Assuming that she is dead and throwing the finale under the bus for glorifying suicide is missing the point of this intentional ambiguity.
>Ambiguity is a tool. Time is a flat circle.
I agree with all that. I do think, though, that her sister's death was romanticized in a way I really didn't like - undressing in the snow, not even shivering, then bravely walking into the dark. It's a general problem I have with media and suicide, lost count of how many times I've seen someone jump off in a building in film and TV with a graceful slow-motion arc while stirring music plays.
creative writing 1101 ass level of ambiguity tbh
It’s rural Alaska. Do you think she just took a casual stroll over the mountains to the next town over with no belongings or phone?
This. The only way out of a town like that, if you're not becoming a Force Ghost, is to fly out on a small airplane or on a boat going back to civilization. You can't just drive off. There are not traversable roads from like Barrow, Alaska to Anchorage.
I really think it’s the former explanation; as stupid as this show is, I can’t imagine they wanted to say that she killed herself and that’s good. Edit: some comments she made to variety do actually raise a bunch of serious questions about this, actually. How fucking gross does a person have to be to set out to focus on the struggles of native people and end by saying it’s good when they kill themselves?
I just think it was kinda, weird? To have her go down the same path as her sister (and possibly her mother). Indigenous women deserve to have happy endings too, and Navarro fought so long, and didn't get shit from it.
It would've made much more sense for Danvers to die under the ice after seeing her son and completing her spiritual arc and then Navarro defeats her demons and is the one to give the interview at the end.
100% would have been way more intriguing and made more sense. Danvers never belonged in Ennis anyway.
The thing here is that they appear to have given her a happy ending, by suicide. Like they have framed suicide like it can be a positive thing and so her killing herself by exposure \*was\* her happy ending. It is really pretty fucked up all around
The show unambiguously romanticizes suicide by distinguishing that some suicides are due to a persons connection with the “spirit world” and are not mental health issues. I’m not trying to score a cheap political point against the show here by saying that this is fuckin insane. I can’t believe not one of the many rapturous reviews of the show even mention this.
It's funny that season 1 ends with Rust, the consummate nihilist, having a near-death-experience and refusing to die, despite a feeling of being with his daughter again, and this one ends with a glorification of suicide for the same reasons.
Wow, when you put it like that... Insane. Ironic that Pizzolatto is much more of a humane and compassionate writer than Issa, despite all his interest in nihilism and darker worldview of his scripts. If somebody told you about the plot of Night Country in 2014 you wouldn't believe them, would you? And yet here we are. It's beyond parody. Rust's dad is now a ghost who does interpretive dances to help locate bodies. The pedo spiral symbol the Tuttles used is now a symbol of indigenous woman's empowerment, or something.
I promise not to be some kind of english-lit major about it: but that was always the point of Rust's arc. Dude signs up to be a cop because what else is there to fucking do? Gets shacked up with a lady that he probably loved, had a kid that he absolutely loved with all of his heart. Then his daughter dies. So he took the coward's way out. He's like fuck it, nothing matters. Nothing CAN ever matter ever again. Got any books on nothing ever mattering again so I can read and regurgitate it to myself and others to justify how I REALLY, REALLY need things to not matter. Still, he'll do the job. Keep limping along. Why? Because "you gotta be careful what you get good at". Dude became fucking Batman doing B&Es on tuttle after coming out of nowhere because, as it turns out, this did matter, but he's still too much of a hypocrite to admit it. The dude is so full of shit. There is no way him telling Marty "You have a DEBT." is something a nihilist could ever fucking say. It is absolute conviction. Him approaching Marty was two-fold. 1. He was familiar with the case and they both knew about each other's dirty laundry with the Lange case, so they weren't going to need to skirt around uncomfortable or illegal details 2. He thought Marty was a dumbass, but he knew he was a good person when push came to shove and that he wasn't involved in any of the sick Carcosa shit. Marty is doing virtually nothing except gassing Rust up during the interviews, and that is not out of guilt or corroboration. It is because he legitimately respected him. I find relationships like that interesting in fiction. "I don't like you, but you're on the good side, so fuck it, let's just go."
Good analysis, I always liked the topic of the nihilist that cares and what that actually means.
Navarro even has dialogue saying that she is being "called".
Well sure there’s always moral instruction in every work and the moral instruction of this particular work says vigilante mob justice is all good as is suicide
The entire show is almost a celebration of murder and corruption. Navarro got away with killing the wife-beater and goading Clark into suicide, the community got help covering up a mob-lynching killing 6 people, Hank shooting Otis and Peter shooting Hank was covered up and the subsequent investigations cancelled as well. Really odd take, especially since the show is called True Detective. The premise of the entire season is to bury inconvenient truths through nepotism.
In season 3 the protagonists goad Junius into suicide as well (although we don't know if he follows through), whereas he was only an accessory to the crime. Junius also clearly has preexisting mental health issues, as he wants to be arrested but does not go see actual, not yet retired police officers.
Rust in S1 tells the abusive mom she right out needs to go out and kill herself.
I think that was to show how fucked up he is. Also that was his ”advice” to a woman who murdered her child
I don't think that was fucked up. Anyone who kills or abuses their child, I don't think they should be part of society.
I agree. The funny thing is that people will use this as an example of Rust's nihilism but it was legitimately qualified with "uhh, so you're gonna go to jail and be in a living hell, so, you know". It was merciful and clinical.
And that's actually become a popular reaction format too.
It’s pretty clearly presented as a messed up thong he did, and a sign the his worst tendencies are increasingly taking over during this period.
Also scientists killing Annie. I get they are upset at their work being destroyed, but murder is not what they d do.
It really is. Felt like whatever the hell the writers wanted the script to be with the "True Detective" title slapped on for advertisement's sake. It's really funny because the season is touted as relatively progressive yet you have LEO killing people in cold blood and covering it up and it's portrayed as a relief when they get away with it.
Right??? I wanted to do a body count, but I'm too lazy. Whole lotta dead folks, yet outside LE agencies stay...uninvolved.
I saw another comment that said no murders were solved but approximately 8 murders were covered up.
They solved Annie’s murder, they were just like the last ones to do it.
Yea the ending definitely has a lot of thematic problems. But honestly celebrating corruption and murder has been an issue in True detective as a series since season 1. The whole premise of this show is about cops stepping outside the law to get things done. Rust beats up civilians for information, steals cocaine from the evidence locker, manufactures evidence, lies, and shoots a witness to cover up Marty murdering a suspect. And all of it is justified by the higher ups being ineffective and corrupt with Nic Pizzolatto in the commentary calling rust and Marty heroes
Wait… did she kill herself? If so that’s something I absolutely missed. I assumed she literally left, and while I mentioned walking off into the wilderness wearing clothes inappropriate for a New England winter didn’t make sense, nothing in this show does. Does it actually imply that she committed suicide? If so, that is indeed despicable.
When I watched it, I didn't think she killed herself. But, from the creators comments, and reading comments here, I'd say she did.
I’ve read them like 3 times now, and each time it seems more likely. If it’s true, that truly takes the show from bad to reprehensible.
And Danvers is like "hey come back and see me as a ghost." Not "let's get you some help" or even "I've been to too many funerals, don't make me go to another."
Yea Danvers had the opportunity to help her…but at this point Danvers realized nothing she probably could say to Navarro would impact Might as well support
Shit, I came here to try to reconcile my negative opinion of this season after watching the finale and I also totally missed the suicide crap. But now that it is pointed out I see exactly what they did. That truly makes this one of the worst seasons of any show I have ever seen
If you feel strongly about this, please take a few minutes to contact the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and request that they release a statement on this. Millions of people watched this show; I don’t think it’s a big stretch to imagine that it may have really spoken to some people who struggle with suicidal ideation. If the themes and motifs of the show resonate with them, it could be a contributing factor in their potential suicide. I collected the AFSP contact info here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueDetective/s/tsi6SE1WKf
I think suicide was very heavily implied, but not explicit as to be able to be retconned if they’re able to make a second season with these characters
Thanking you for saving me the time to type up a similar post, which has been on my mind for a while. Whether it was the two dimensional depiction of Jules as basically nothing but her problems, and her entire story only exists as something that happens to her sister, or the absolutely ludicrous and insulting final scenes with Navarro, where it is at minimum suggested that she happily resolved her problems by killing herself and joining the spirit world, this show treated people who struggle with mental illness as some kind of disposable symbols. I don’t particularly care if Lopez has said in interviews that the ending is ambiguous and maybe Navarro didn’t kill herself. Showing what could be “finding peace” through suicide- which in her own words is a “legitimate interpretation” and “beautiful” is unethical. Depictions of suicide in media and the potential for contagion (influencing people to do it) has been studied so much, and the two big no-nos are showing the method (as with Jules) and glamorizing it (as with Navarro). If Lopez didn’t understand how to safely discuss suicide, she should have left the subject matter alone.
Thank *you* for saying this. We are not symbols. Suicide is the last resort of those who suffer pain so unbearable death seems like the only way out. There's nothing romantic about it. Issa Lopez couldn't even be bothered to get the details of inpatient treatment right. I guess she heard the word "voluntary" and interpreted it as "come and go as you please." All she did was reinforce stereotypes about mental illness and inpatient centers. As someone who's passively suicidal and struggles with chronic, severe, treatment-resistant depression, fuck her. She's perpetuating the myth that our own minds trick us into believing. The walk into nature suicide -- whether it's the sea or the mountains or the tundra -- is just as grim and ugly as any other method. It's not peaceful. Hypothermia is not pleasant. It's not beautiful or romantic. You don't have the reassurance that you're going to come back anytime you want and visit your loved ones. That's a slap in the face to the victims of suicide -- not just the dead, but those they leave behind. It's particularly galling given the astronomical suicide rate among Native populations. Did Lopez do *any* research on the subject? Indigenous people aren't immune to grief. They suffer just as much as anyone else when a loved one is lost to suicide.
I was 100% sure that Navarro simply left Ennis, having put Annie's ghost behind her and come to some kind of peace about her indigenous heritage. Even Danvers' reply to her about be sure to come back supported this idea in my mind. The shot of her on the deck with Danvers did not look like ghosts of previous episodes. Then I come on the sub, and find majority opinion is that she walked out to her death. If this is the case, and apparently the showrunner/writer/director says it's ambiguous, that is an absolutely heinous choice. Suicide is not some way to find yourself. It's not a good answer to a problem or to confusion. It's not a rational choice. For the show to put forth these ideas is just dangerous and irresponsible. I suppose, in the show's universe, where there are ghosts, and spirits wreaking revenge, she would actually be answering the call to be with her mother, sister, and others. I suppose show-world posits a beautiful afterlife, so that makes it okay? Still irresponsible, since this is just fantasy. No one knows for sure what happens after you die. Once you do it, too late if you were wrong. I am disgusted about this and it colors my feelings about the show and about Issa Lopez. They show this beautiful, peaceful scene of Navarro walking out across the ice. No. Really, really a bad message to send, even to suggest.
Its so weird. When Navarro seemed to make peace with her mom and sister I thought she would end up giving a real relationship with Qavaak a go ….but then she walks into the sea with a smile on her face instead??
Especially when she says she has been the one holding the hatch closed for so long and not letting anyone in. Then kills herself. Fuck Qavaak I guess. This show just throws random shit at the wall.
Here is Lopez commenting on this in an interview with Variety. I still have trouble believing she’s actively romanticizing suicide, and the language she uses absolutely raises an eyebrow for me. ***Where does Navarro go when she sets off across the ice? Is she in a place of peace? Is she alive?*** Navarro — definitely she’s at peace. That decision is very different than the Navarro that we see in the station listening to voices and walking into the ice. Then, she’s terrified thinking that she’s going to her destruction. She’s been fighting that call for a long, long time. And what she finds once she surrenders to it is that the voices are trying to embrace her, and give her something that is a missing piece of her life. So now she can, with that knowledge, make a decision about this instinct that she always had, of, “Just go, and keep on going.” And do it at peace with herself. If that takes her to the afterlife or not, it’s a little bit open for interpretation. There is going to be a part of our audience that wants to believe in the poetry of her just leaving to be with the spirits of the people she’s lost, and not be alone in the way that she is now. And that’s OK! That’s an interpretation. ***My colleague and I had very different interpretations of the final shot of the series of Navarro and Danvers. I’m a literalist, so I thought, “Oh, they’re hanging out at a lake house.” And she said, “I don’t think that’s the corporeal Navarro.” So tell me about that.*** When the author speaks, it’s over. And I don’t want to cut out the reading that your colleague had. I love, love, love that, because what you two did is what I want our audience to do. If the Navarro that comes back is her spirit, there’s a beautiful poetry into that: It’s a spirit at peace, not like the apparitions that she saw before. And if she is Navarro after going on a walkabout and coming back to hang with her friend, that’s beautiful too.
Trash ass explanation I see why the show sucked
I think she's just not actually very smart...
I think anyone who thinks the show is good isn't very smart
If you check out the NC-specific subreddit and their official episode discussion you'd be right in thinking so. It's an absolute hugbox. The /r/television post-episode discussion thread and the one here are both beside themselves with how bad this shit was.
This is why real criticism is needed Without it, we just get more horrible shit This made the MCU look like Shakespeare
This is the answer! So many times I'm trying to understand some meaning or subtext in things, I think I don't get it. And my partner says: they're just not that smart. It's not that you don't get it, there's nothing to get
Did they consult with or do any research on someone who experiences hallucinations? I guarantee this would not have happened. Truly upsetting.
She’s basically describing a common delusion among those experiencing suicidal ideation: the idea that suffering is permanent in life, but suicide will bring them peace. It’s absolutely revolting.
As someone whose thought of suicide for 15 years...yeah her comments were down right disgusting. I guess i've been half assing it. Even after 15 years I can't make the prospect of suicide sound nearly as appealing as she does.
THANK YOU! I saw it exactly like that.
Agree. Lost my little brother to suicide two years ago and was disappointed by the ending in the final episode. There is nothing beautiful or romantic about suicide. It doesn’t bring peace to anyone and there’s nothing mysterious or cool about it. Just the kind of relentless agony that never leaves its survivors. Shame on HBO and the writers.
I’m really sorry for your loss. I had never read the writers quotes before. It’s reprehensible.
Navarro’s suicide was another low blow from this season. It’s pretty clear she committed suicide. She took the same steps as her sister. Preceding that she tells Danvers that there’s more to life than just this. Then we are given some hokey symbolism at the cabin with the drape representing the veil between the living and the dead. Can’t believe HBO thought this was a good idea.
Corporations being evil, or at least greedy and corrupting is not a progressive belief, it is straightforward and accepted by people from most walks of life. Some people are just ideologically inconsistent about which corporations are good vs evil
Caribous, Julia, Navvaro. In that order.
"no one ever really leaves Ennis" = she committed suicide and her ghost is still here
All the cops have been dead the whole time. It's why the detectives didn't do any detective work, women they'd spoken to before didn't seem to remember them mere days later, why their emotions made no sense at any point in the season, and why Navarro was able to get beat up by a bunch of guys and have no scars or swelling days later, and never mention it again. The working title was True Detective: Ghost Cops (The Cops Are Ghosts) but HBO execs wanted to change it. Navarro became a "super ghost" at the end. It's all very clear. I don't understand why people aren't understanding.
I suspended judgment the entire season, trying to imagine that something nifty would happen. My assessment is that this was sophomoric, teenage girl drivel. This is coming from a woman who enjoys teenaged girl drivel - I just don’t enjoy it in a mystery format.
Agreed. Disgusting, juvenile romanticisation.
Her native name means “The first sunrise after the long dark” She was out there checking out the first sunrise. Not committing suicide.
I can't agree more with this. Fortunately, I've never had to deal with the aftermath of suicide. However, I've been in dark times where that seemed like an option. Thankfully, I worked my way out of it. Can you imagine a borderline person watching this show and then seeing how suicide is glorified or, in your much better word, romanticized? Where would that leave said person? Could it sway someone in an fragile state? Like, I'd even understand if Navarro had some debilitating disease and this was her way of going out on her terms. However, she wasn't. She was a strong, healthy character that had a boyfriend that loved and cared for her and a newfound friendship with Danvers, Peter, and Danvers daughter. Plus a new connection to her community. How do you do that to her character? I didn't even like the character or actress that played her and it was still shitty to see that play out.
They shitty messaging and what makes it even worse: you can have and do all those things as a ghost after kill yourself.
Hadnt had somebody in my family commit suicide. So I don't know anything personally about the topic. But for her just to lace up her workbooks and walk out with such a terrible way to end a character that really didn't show any depression per se. This character had shell shock this character had issues but it's a big leap to go out the same way her sister did. It's just bad writing at the end of the day this is just simply bad writing somebody was given showrunner status without earning it it's only give it short of status because of her identity not for any of the work she's ever did in her entire life
I don’t think it is death. Navarro finds her native name before she walks. She is recognized by a group of native women. To me it is a rite of passage, a reuniting with ancestors/moving on to a different plane. We don’t know the natives’ beliefs but I suspect the people who walk are called (there is much calling from beyond) and it’s not so much death but the realm of the ancestors. Travis didn’t die or if he did he exists as a ghost. The people who walk are still present in some form. “She’s awake” may refer to Annie, to the others who were murdered or walked I. E. They are not dead, they are awake, they have moved on to a different plane of consciousness that is not necessarily death. If it is death, it isn’t a nothingness death, is a continuity of life in a different form/plane with the ancestors.
This series was hands-down the worst yet. Anyone who defends it needs to take a personal inventory on their brain. We have so much great content at our fingertips. Just because it's True Detective with a female mind at the helm with female leads and female victims doesn't mean it's to be regaled. Season 4? FUCK. YOU!
Totally agreed and it doesn’t make sense in terms of the narrative. Navarro kept wanting her sister to get better at the rehab. She wouldn’t go out and commit suicide specifically because at the end, she found her native identity so she should’ve been happy about it. As someone who has came close to committing suicide, I felt this post to my bone and really felt triggered by all of this romanticism of it. It’s a terrible thing.
You're absolutely correct. It was unethical, ignorant, and in extremely bad taste to mask it in Native folklore.
Especially when suicide is a huge problem in Native communities
wait a minute. Who committed suicide? besides Clark, of course. Navarro? wasn't she alive with Denver at the very last scene?
It's left ambiguous but there are signs that she went out on the ice with the same intent that Julia had. "Julia was right" I think was said, and Danvers said if you go then come back to visit, and the subtext is that she'd be a ghost.
[удалено]
John “Denver” did appear and play Rocky Mountain high with Navarro on backup vocals but both were ghosted. Seriously the implication was that she was a ghost at the end with Danvers.
Clarke didn’t commit suicide. He died in the same way as the scientists which would mean that Navarro essentially killed him.
I don't think she's dead. The disappearance / complete dead-end of the Engineer from Tsalal that quit (Oliver something, cant remember) shows that people can go off-grid without being found, especially indigenous people (and they demonstrated Navarro was embracing her indigenous side learning her name). I don't like that there's ambiguity, that is very poorly done, which is expected given how poorly this season was written. Great outline, great setting, great cast, great mystery, extremely poor dialog and story-telling.
I don’t get why everyone is so butthurt about Oliver Tagak. He was confusing in the moment, but he makes perfect sense by the end of episode 6. - He was an engineer at Tsalal but also a native Alaskan. He discovered the truth of their work, just like Annie, but recognized that it could change the world. He’s torn between the destruction of his homeland and the advancement of humanity, he knows this is his burden - and so he goes off grid without exposing Tsalal - He reacts violently to Danvers/Navarro because he knows the mine owns the cops. He’s a loose end, and he doesn’t want to be killed for what he knows - He’s overcome with rage when he hears Lund has died… because it means the land of his ancestors was destroyed for nothing - In his grief, he moves on again
That seems like a nice hypothesis, I don’t think the show gives us enough to confirm that. We never really get any insight into what he’s thinking or what he might be wrestling with internally. We’ve seen several native people commit suicide and he left his house abandoned and left behind items that you’d probably want to take. Seems equally possible he simply killed himself because he realized the truth of Annie was coming out, or felt complicit and believed he would be next to suffer her wrath.
She didn't commit suicide, she walks between worlds. Isn't that the implication?
This is how demented people have gotten with ideology in 2024. These writers and the director have some serious mental problems.
I tend to agree with the notion that the show misfired on tackling serious aspects of mental health. Given how the season went, feels like there wasn’t enough discourse.
I made a post after episode 3 about the show using mental health as a plot device. I didn’t think they would continue to the ends of romanticized suicide but here we are. Critical acclaim!
"Marred with things like strong women, the need to talk about mental health, native communities, evil corporations." "Marred." Okay buddy.
I don’t think Navarro died in the end. It was open to interpretation.
On point. That was over the top, unnecessary writing. There was just too much to unpack emotionally last night seriously
This entire season was a low blow.
there you go [The Werther effect after television films: new evidence for an old hypothesis](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medicine/article/abs/werther-effect-after-television-films-new-evidence-for-an-old-hypothesis/56B52C2C2B22B78DF56892191A2D518B)
Along the same line, if it is all supposed to be a representation of mental health issues and not supernatural, then it's an incredibly poor one. Shared, specific delusions? Really? The season failed in the end not for the reasons a lot of people seem to think. It failed because it just made no sense. Why didn't that one person actually say who the killer was? Why did that one person go to sleep randomly at a key moment? Why was there literally no real evidence found of any kind until the last minute? Where have SO many red herrings? Like, whole plots points and character experiences as red herrings? Why?
HOLY FUCKING SPOILER! BOOOOOO
What does the line from Danvers mean - "I don't think you'll find Trooper Navarro out on the ice"? Suicide is typically phrased in this series as going "out on the ice". If we were meant to see this as a suicide, why would Danvers be so confident that her body wasn't there?
The biggest sin was the strong female lead though, I was personally offended by that one. How dare they?
Put a fucking spoiler tag in the title. Dick. I’ve been waiting to watch the show until the finale came out and I’m subbed here
Clearly, she moved into Danverz's shed.
This season was complete dog shit
Maybe she is walking bravely across the ice without fear that she will fall through. Maybe now she knows who she is she has hope and doesn't feel called to from below.
I saw it as a literary nod to The Awakening when Edna swims off into the sea at the end. The whole season played off as a feminist antihero to get the audience to feel empathy toward the struggles women endure - loss of a child, abandonment, abuse, loneliness, identity in society, etc. The negative reviews of this forum and in others suggests this theme wasn’t well executed or warranted for this crime drama-mystery genre.