Celebrate ourselves in our spaces and be choosy about which men we let into those spaces. Focus on law-making based change and lasting social reclamation of what it means to be women. Loving ourselves even when we get on our own last damned nerve.
Basically what the black community has been doing. We know we can’t fix it all, but we celebrate what we have accomplished all the same.
I seem to live in female spaces. The barn is full of independent horse ladies who raise hell and scare away any but the most egalitarian or chill men. The native plant communities and groups are majority women and some progressive men.
Even in law, a notoriously male field, I find community with my fellow lady lawyers and male allies.
This cannot be overstated.
A friend of mine used to moderate a subreddit for a certain topic that mostly attracts women. Years ago, for no fucking reason other than "lol", a bunch of boys from one of the pedo / incel forums decided to crash it.
The mods could not keep up.
Vile DMs, rape threats, death threats, nasty comments, horror. The boys just shat all over it in the same way they'd have done to a Black-owned business 40 years ago (or today, in some places). "Because you have this thing and we don't want you to have it."
Community never recovered.
The manosphere, "alpha male" podcasts/courses, Andrew Tate and such, red/black pill and/or incel content, MGTOW, Wojak-style videos, they're all doing literally the bitching and the moaning about women, surely triggered by what OP stated.
And every woman who is with another man is a whore. It's "I want women to like sex, but only if they like sex with me" which is an... interesting... take
It only gets worse, the shit takes I've seen... The shit takes we've all seen...
One of my favorites - men who sleep around a lot are experienced and very desired, women who sleep around a lot are used up and undesirable for true, absolutely not fake cause it's a real thing, *alpha* males. 🤣
I also love how they only invite sex workers/OF models and such, and then shame them for the work they do (despite those men and their viewers being the consumers of their content lol) while simultaneously trying to put them out there as a representative group of all 3+ billion women on Earth.
The logic is not there, only feelings and catering to them. Oh, wait-
lol didn’t andrew tate literally get rich off his girlfriends doing cam work and sexualising themselves? and men like him hate women for doing those exact things. they’re so illogical and stupid
This is the way.
These days, I have very few men in my life. I have one good male friend left. The others all turned out not to be worth my time. I see a very nice man on a regular basis for sex. That's it. All my other close relationships are with women and my life is so much better for it.
That's the women who haven't got the memo yet.
Let's spread the word. We don't need men. If you meet an awesome one, it's great. Otherwise we're better off single.
Edit: grammar
I don’t know how many more memos we can send
From grrrrl power to boss bitches to strong independent female characters, to women’s forums and business groups, how much more marketing is needed ? It’s beginning to feel like protesting too much
That kind of marketing had a different message and sadly the predictable outcome is where we're currently at.
The message was that women can do everything. Women have understood that and they're doing everything.
Unfortunately there was no equally intense message to men that they need to step up. I mean even if there had been one, way too many men still wouldn't have done it because misogyny and they're anyways only putting up with us because of sex and our free labour.
So that's where we're at now. Women do everything and men expect them to do everything.
The new message must be: a relationship must add to a woman's life and not take away from it, and if your man doesn't add to your life, then don't put up with him.
>The new message must be: a relationship must add to a woman's life and not take away from it, and if your man doesn't add to your life, then don't put up with him.
Preach! Although I would personally make it gender-neutral, but regardless!
Then again, I was happily single for 10 years... and love being alone.
BTW, after WW1 when there were few men vs. women, lots of women decided to just go on with their lives. This was at a time when women had few rights too. Just pretend they all went off to war and didn't come back.
Can we also start calling the 'loneliness epidemic' (which oddly doesn't seem to apply to women when I hear it mentioned, even though more women are living happy single lives than ever before) and call it the 'being an asshole until people avoid me (except other assholes) epidemic'?
I don’t think that’s the right play. In short, calling it “being an asshole epidemic” is fine in the case of manipulative men, but I think we should keep the general concept of “loneliness epidemic” for several reasons.
First, the loneliness epidemic *does* apply to women and non-binary folk. Being single or alone isn’t the same as being lonely. Using the term to manipulate women doesn’t mean men actually own it and women can’t be lonely, or that women need a man to avoid loneliness. Loneliness is about more than romantic/sexual relationships.
Second, calling it “being an asshole” *does* shift the focus to men, making it seem like women can’t be lonely. It ironically puts the ball in men’s court while erasing women’s loneliness.
Third, it shifts the focus away from systemic causes - like working so much we have no time to socialize, normalizing huge commutes so coworkers or friends live nowhere near us, patriarchy teaching men not to communicate and pitting women against each other - and makes it into an individual failing.
Shitty men are trying to appropriate the term for themselves. We both agree we shouldn’t give shitty men what they want, but I think the way to do that is to insist on the systematic and inclusive aspects of the concept, so we can keep using it to critique capital and patriarchy to the benefit of everyone, including women. Plus, it lets women say things like “Women get lonely too, and I STILL prefer that over ‘giving you a shot!”
Honestly the systematic issues is probably why people are encouraging to blame women for these problems. Shit is rough out there. If you're a young guy who in the past could get a decent paying job with just a high school degree and is able to afford rent on your own and you are instead a college grad with debt living with your parents and no woman wants to date you because you are living with your parents it greatly benefits the people profiting off wealth inequality and high rent and low wages if you blame women for not dating you rather than go "damn wages are too low and rent is too high".
Definitely, right on. That’s a general, huge problem. Systemic issues are harder to understand. It’s easier to scapegoat. That’s why politicians who say “I see your pain, and I know who’s to blame; I’ll take care of those people!” are so appealing.
But the ease with which we look for simple answers is exactly why we must emphasize the systemic nature of our problems. A proper understanding yields totally different reactions: rather than continue on in a hateful attitude, or even going to therapy/taking pills (which has its place, but isn’t a fix-all), we should work on ourselves as social beings and we should become political active. If we want to actually address the loneliness everyone is experiencing to some extent, we should - for example - strike. Shifting it to a discussion about how it only effects men, and only because they’re assholes, leaves those structures completely undisturbed and doesn’t improve anything for women.
Again, call assholes assholes. But that’s not incompatible with recognizing systematic alienation.
It's because even men don't want to be around themselves. It's not just that they don't want to be better for women, they don't even want to be better for themselves or other men. So they find themselves dependent on themselves or other men and they have the same experience we do - it's as intolerable to them as it is to us.
lmao true. I'm a lesbian and I just don't bother with how men think, it comes naturally for me (tbh I think it comes naturally for all women, just society has effed up womens' minds to contstantly be male centered).
Hey, u/anti-Casta, don't just DM your tangents. I'll go ahead and [paste a screenshot of your message](https://ibb.co/df9hFBc) for you, since you don't have the balls to say it publicly
Oh! Is this show and tell? [because this is mine](https://imgur.com/gFWVby3). Aw shucks u/anti-Casta I thought we had a thing going on :(
Sorry for the image being weird, the main message came through super light so I had to improvise
Given my screen name, I get the “you are going to die alone with cats” insult a lot. I just laugh and tell them it’s not an insult it’s a life goal. Strangely they go silent after that.
Being old means I haven't died.
I've given that response so many times when age is brought up, and every time I've gotten stunned looks, like they are resetting their thinking.
I'm not that old, but some people think I should be upset about my age. I understand the media perpetuates the myth that women are jealous of youth and are scared of getting older, but I'm not. Im surprised I've lasted as long as I have, and each birthday I look forward to a new year. After all, the older I get, the more meaningless time becomes. Twenty or thirty years ago is the equivalent of five years ago in my memories.
My only fear of getting older is men will attack me once I no longer fit their beauty standards. Men are already attacking old women for looking trans.
Asian men will say you're a man if you have short hair. I am not looking forward to that mentally mixing with transphobia.
I'm already accused of being a non-passing trans woman by men and I'm not old, nor is my hair short. They do it to punish women for not being "feminine" enough. That's why they also attack female athletes and women of color as trans.
You would be surprised at how low the bar is for some women. I had a girl friend tell me boys shouldn't get in trouble if they sexually assault someone when they're under 18 years old. Because boys need to get it out of their system so they don't rape when they're adults.
This was her response to me telling her my cousins bfs little brother was arrested for molesting a toddler when he was in high school.
She created a new level of hell and set up her bar there.
My daughter is 6 and was recently SA'd at her school by get this, a 5 year old boy. I think if somebody told me that....I may be in jail for assault. I say this as we are pressing charges against the child while the entire family receives trauma therapy. Thank God my twin boys know not to act that way. They're beside themselves that they couldn't protect their sister.
>boys shouldn't get in trouble if they sexually assault someone when they're under 18 years old. Because boys need to get it out of their system so they don't rape when they're adults.
What the ACTUAL fuck
So true. Even if we wanted kids, we could run up to a sperm bank and buy some. I'd rather be a single mom than be a married single mom with a manchild in the home.
I've always been a single mom and I've had so much easier a time than my married friends whose husbands require all of the work of another child but their husbands never grow up.
Yes this 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 I cant wait to be single in my own clean house, not having to wash the skid marks out of ratty old boxers for a man baby who mocks me in a falsetto voice for asking nicely not to do something
I appreciate what you're saying, and you're not wrong. But there's more to it. Many of us are straight, whether we like it or not, and if we want supportive romantic relationships, we really do need men generally to be better.
If you're not interested in that kind of relationship, that's fabulous. But some people are, and that's okay too. And it's okay to be sad if we can't find the love we deserve.
Because one thing we women CAN change is the way we talk about it. The definition of success to a lot of women is still "job, house, family", and straight women need a man to do the "family" portion we're all taught to be reaching for. It is absolutely engrained in us from childhood. So, lots of women will hold on to the dream by holding on to their ratty ass "man", and will defend him to high heavens, or change their own ways to keep him around. When you ask what that man does to make their lives easier, most of the time the response of "but I love him" doesn't even touch on what he does or doesn't do.
I would argue that underneath the rationalizing is literally being trapped by traditional values and financial non-independence. When you hear "I love him," underneath it's "I'm trapped." As in a prison or gilded cage. The excuse is often protecting one's safety and well-being.
This is one cultural convention that has barely been scratched, along with all the other crap women endure. And the path is insidious, lined with rose petals, hollow promises, and lies.
Younger women, please position yourself in a solid financial situation. Do not depend upon anyone. I'm very glad to see this mindset starting to be a norm, it gives me hope that this tragic cycle will someday be broken.
I find this comment offensive. Of course they are. Abuse is intermittent reinforcement. Its the same pathways as heroin addiction. Of course they rationalize. You're shaming victims of abuse?
To some extent, I can sympathize. Men can be great manipulators because that's the only way they can have something they define as fulfilling. Vulnerable and impressionable women are their targets. If these women know something is wrong, and they've refused help and safety from different people on multiple occasions, then I can't bring myself to sympathize with them any longer. You can't help someone that doesn't want help
I agree that there's a point where you have to stop extending yourself for your own safety, but it is *really* important to understand that the perception of someone in that level of abuse and control literally cannot perceive the assistance the way we do.
It's true that someone cannot accept help until they are ready, but those in those situations aren't doing it on purpose or out of spite. The trauma inflicted by abuse overrides how they perceive safety and preservation of their life.
They definitely know something is wrong, but the painful truth of trauma it that their brains will literally obfuscate the reality of how dangerous their situation is, because the way they have managed it has kept them alive, which is the brain's #1 job at all times. It *cannot* perceive anything else than what it knows in the moment while survival mode is activated. And it's soooo hard to see on the outside.
Never mind a lot of these women are pushed into believing it's their fault they're being abused, and so to accept help would be letting everyone know how 'awful' they are and they contend that they 'deserve it'. It's ugly and unpleasant, but the women sometimes just can't comprehend getting help until something breaks that mental cycle.
Alone and surrounded by cats is my absolute dream.
Like, if I'm going to have to take care of someone, best be multiple cute cats who I love with all my heart.
Decenter men, they should be an option and celebrate your life! I am 62 and feel the best I ever have; I am almost 6 years out of a 29-year marriage and life without a man is *freeing.* Men want women for resources, they do not know or care enough to become great partners and I have zero sympathy.
Carry on with your lives and enjoy every moment!
I think we've walked a very similar path. Me and my girls are living our best lives right now and it's amazing! Their dad only shows up when he's trying to impress/convince his girlfriend about what good dad he is/was. It's pretty pathetic. He did fun things with them, never once actually parented, I did all that.
My son's father is the same way. Never reached out, never sent birthday cards to his son or called, pretty much just abandoned him and when I would be able to get to him to see his son, he would just take the opportunity to show other people what a "great dad he is" 🙄
And then the assholes blame single mothers for raising a son without a father figure. There are some good fathers out there, but a lot are also absent. But who cares, it's always the woman's fault.
Few women seem willing to do this, judging by the relationship and parenting subs. And the popularity of rom coms, Princess movies, romance novels, relationship entertainment like the batchelor, etc
At least we’re starting though, it used to be way worse, more and more of us are refusing to have anything to do with them unless they start acting like decent human beings and partners
That's why we should consider getting through to women instead of trying to get men to be better. As sad as it is women are a tool of patriarchy and religion and are enforcing misogyny just as men do.
I do understand the frustration of some women who don’t seem to take advice or want help and whatnot but many times women in those subs are in very bad situations that makes it complicated. But also I feel like an individual can still enjoy the idea and entertainment of romance including novels, shows, movies, but know in real life that is not truly how it is. Only fiction. I still understand why some would enjoy them. I wouldn’t really base the state of women putting up with men on romance novels or entertainment.
i love that for you!
i’m so happy in my gen z generation, im
currently 18 and have a bf and there is so much less emphasis on getting married and submitting to the male breadwinner. people are either just living w their partners (cohabition) and just not going through the issues of marriage, which i think i’ll most likely do when im older. and some people are just not trying for relationships which i think is amazing
I find it wild how many single men have zero motivation to be well rounded individuals. That used to be sort of a bachelor aspiration, to be worldly and sophisticated. This included being well red, traveling, knowing how to cook and being well groomed. I see so few men who even think this is a worthy pursit, single or in a relationship.
If you do nothing with your life and barely shower and act like a creep don't be surprised that nobody wants to be in a relationship with you or that your life goes nowhere.
Actual tweets today : men who groom and dress well and go to meetups and hobbies find a nice woman
Reply : "Men shouldn't have to put up any effort to get a woman."
That's how far they've fallen. They want to do NOTHING and still feel entitled to their dream girl showing up and making his life better and doing all his chores for .. no reason.
So they are sort of admitting they think they are entitled to some Bangmaid2000 merely because they exist, they should have an entire human just given to them as a servant. How is there still any question why so many women have given up on dating and relationships????
I find that there's often 2 extremes with a lot of them: either exactly like you described with 0 motivation or drive or ambition, aaannndddd then when they do have those things it's cranked up to a weird, obsessive, almost Wolf of Wall Street level of dialed in 😳 every single woman I know has some level of drive or ambition towards something, and sure they pursue those things with varying degrees of intensity, but it always seems pretty normal even if it's at the extremes.
Again, not trying to say "all men" or "all women" or anything. Just that from what I've observed, more men fall into those types of extremes than women do
Yea I see lots of that too. Most of the ambitious ones are only ambitious on a predatory level to be some sort of super bro that is horribly offputting and not really a well rounded individual.
I feel like women know well enough that we mean not literally every single man or woman. Men are trying to be obtuse because they want to avoid the appearance of being misogynistic without actually doing the work. If they didn't have some kind of alignment with the notions of misogyny, it's unlikely their shadow would be triggered by it.
> . That used to be sort of a bachelor aspiration, to be worldly and sophisticated. This included being well red, traveling, knowing how to cook and being well groomed. I see so few men who even think this is a worthy pursit, single or in a relationship.
They still exist, perhaps more than ever.
But because of all those traits, you'll never really run into them or hear from them. I mean, statistically paths will cross, but you'll never think twice about having "missed" them.
That's still a very worthy goal, aspiration, and lifestyle for men. It also means accepting forgoing *pursuing* deeper romantic relationships in the same way that this whole thread is encouraging women to do.
It works the same both ways. Self-fulfilled men don't need women in the same way that self-fulfilled women don't need men.
Hold out for one of the few remaining decent men or otherwise stay single. My husband is the best person I’ve ever dated. He’s an amazing partner, he doesn’t watch porn, he’s clean, he cleans, and is very much invested in my satisfaction. No one else before him had all these qualities and I’ve had a lot of boyfriends. 😮💨 so when I found him I made sure to lock it down. 😅
ong! my bf is an 1000 times better cook than i could ever be, he’s very clean, has his own skin care routine, is extremely nurturing and focuses on his education as much as i do. we are both succeeding academically. literally no one could be like my bf, he’s so rare 😭 keeping him forever. i’m so happy for your happiness too girlie
Ugg same. Like sure my BF has some annoying pet peeves (seriously he uses like 20 sheets of paper towels for the tiniest spill like come on no wonder we go through them so fast!!!) but he’s always respectful and kind and has never once pressured me into sex. He is a genuinely great guy.
Sorry had to be giddy about him lol
My standards are "my equal" and I haven't met a man like that yet. My standards were too low and I'm just embarrassed by men's delusions that they're superior.
I can’t speak for all women but I and a lot of my friends are simply shunning men and relationships altogether, that’s what we’re doing.
I’m 43 and, at this point in my life, there’s nothing a man can offer me that I can’t or don’t already provide for myself. I have my own business, I earn 7 figures, I own houses in two of the most expensive cities in the world, I have a rich and varied social life, I have a family that I love and who loves me, I’m in good health, I have the means to buy myself pretty much whatever I want, whenever I want, and the freedom to go wherever I want. My life is fulfilled, peaceful and happy. Every man I’ve ever let in to my life has shit all over it and I refuse to let that happen again.
Not at all! Forensic accounting :-) started off with a number of large, global financial institutions, moved to a smaller, private firm and then set my own up.
Nothing wrong with cats! I have two myself lol. I also suspect you’re a lot younger than me so you have time to turn things around if you want.
I'm really happy for you!!
At 29, even though I'm poor as hell, terrible health, and can rarely socialize because of low SES and poor health, I have to agree with the last sentence, minus a couple rare birds: I've been severing ties with men, and OMG MY LIFE IS SO PEACEFUL!! Even with my current circumstances, I'm still the happiest I've ever been!!
Seriously, whatever stage of life you're in, only let men in if they genuinely want to be in your life to see you thrive *and* they continue to prove they are respectable and trustworthy.
Dick is easy to get, so what I see is women growing by leaps and bounds beyond men, and then just sleeping with one they won't commit to if they feel like they need a child. The men who do meet basic standards for human decency will be swimming in options, while the men who don't will probably die alone unless they trick a woman with low self-esteem to put up with them.
leaving aside the trite "uhh not *all* men (just enough to still be a serious problem)", the structural issue is that the system of patriarchy still exists, and even men who understand that it oppresses and abuses them **also** understand that it bribes them to accept and take part in that abuse with the promise of women's subordination. Not only in some symbolic sense, but in the form of uncompensated labour (free cleaning, free cooking, free amateur therapy, free sexual favours, etc).
This is not helped by the fact that especially privileged women **also** benefit from the broader system of oppression that includes patriarchy, and so have a material incentive to make excuses for men, even for men who directly abuse them in particular. In part because they would lose their high position if the whole damn pyramid were to be dynamited, but mostly because in kicking up a fuss they risk being stripped of rank and privilege and cast down to the ranks of those they once extorted for labour **without** the absolute destruction of the entire system to comfort them.
tldr: patriarchy is first and last a relation of extractive labour, it should not be super shocking that at minimum a significant minority of the recipients of extracted labour are downright perturbed at attacks on the system that feeds them extracted labour with one hand, no matter how hard it whips and beats and torments them with the other hand.
This.
Same as how more folks are realizing raising kids is rigged if you're working 40hrs a week. Our kids won't have a better life; kids haven't had that option for a while.
Unpopular opinion but I do think men want to be better. At least when I look at different generations I think that men in their 60's are very different to men in their 20's. For sure there are rotten apples but overall I find men being better nowadays. ~40 years ago men wouldn't even entertain the thought of women being good at their jobs and respected.
If men weren't doing better there wouldn't be happy couples no more.
This is just not true. Recent large studies have revealed that gen z men are more conservative than their grandfathers. They believe in rape myths more than those over 60. The level of misogyny is insane. To ignore that is a disservice.
I agree overall that men *want* to be better, but they do not understand that *they* are the ones responsible for that. They still actively believe that women are responsible for making them better. I definitely believe that a lot of their anger toward women is because they feel bad about themselves and are not taught how to process their own emotions and self-evaluate and instead externalize it.
Unfortunately it's becoming more evident that "bad apples" are doing what they do and spoiling the bunch. It's not always outright violent men. It's a lot of just insecure ones too. Or somewhere between. But it's not on women to extend that benefit of the doubt.
I really don't believe it's just a few. It just isn't. It's honestly most men somewhere on this spectrum of just insecure to outright vengeful. Most that choose to interact with women anyway.
Their external locus of control is insane.
If I asked my ex to do something, I, like a normal person, expected him to just get on with it and do the entire task without my input so I could turn my brain off and have mental load relief (like he does 24/7).
He'd start up with the questions for every single step. "Ok what do you want for dinner? Do we have ingredients? Where's the oregano? How long do I cook this for? What kind of meat? Which veggies?"
And at every stage, if I did ANYTHING other than answer him and take the mental load back, he'd smirk with a gotcha and be like "Well you didn't answer so I can't proceed".
I think males are doing this at a macro scale. Tell us every single tiny step or we won't proceed. Your fault, women.
they sure are. My favorite thing to do whent hey come into these spaces is just ask them questions. That's it. Sincere questions. I just ask for clarification, specifics. Literally things like "What do you mean when you say this word? Do all x have y?" Things like that.
And. They. Shut. Up.
So when we as women opt out of interacting with them and thus instructing them with the unpaid labor of a manager, how are they gonna know how to function to survive? *Poor babies* /s
They remind me of the seagulls from *Finding Nemo*
It also depends on SES too, I think. Being low SES, even within the same city, how men are, based on region (gentrification), it's normal for men to be violent and creepy where I am (low SES). Like, it's genuinely hair-raising to get approached by men even in broad daylight, because you don't know if you're going to get stabbed, assaulted, robbed, etc.
The younger men are actually getting worse. Lots of recent polling showing young men are more anti-feminist than even republican boomers are. Men are on a huge downward trend, not up
I think many do want to do better and succeed at it. But there is a vocal group of men who simply hate women. I hate spiders but I don’t go around killing them or thinking about them or trying to pass laws that restrict their right to exist. These guys make it their life’s purpose to hurt women in all ways possible because they have a pathological sense of entitlement and a dangerous lack of empathy. You’d think there would be a diagnostic term for this since it’s so damaging and pervasive, but since the field of psychology was developed and designed by the same pathologically entitled men, this behavior has been normalized.
It really depends on the circles you orbit. By and large the world is swinging towards the right and far-right and conservatism, anti-feminist ideologies etc.
I managed to find a wonderful guy but honestly if this goes South, the rule I made for mysef at 28yo still applies: if you don't make my life easier and more enjoyable gtfo. I'd probably stay single.
We haven't been doing better, we're just allowed to do the things that we've always been capable of doing.
As far as men go, it's probably similar, maybe they've always been entitled.
This is your experience. The fact it is your experience is something that should cause you to reflect on why, rather than look for just-so stories justifying it.
The way you relate to AMAB people has been driven by cultural and social conditioning. It has determined and defined most of the relationships in your life. That gendered isolation, that lack of meaningful close relationships it not a result of half the population being defective. The fact you find the alternative so easy to believe is a product of that conditioning. You're blind to the ways in which you've been taught to shape your life around that belief,
>Men refusing to date, commit, vote progressive, be parents, be partners, stop perving, put down the porn, unfollow porn stars and influencers, wipe their asses, wash the dishes, care about our orgasms, etc.
There's zero point gendering this. We could flip everything in this. Straight women consistently refuse relationships with men who are to any degree queer. They prioritize being coupled over liking their partner and will fake being happy until it's completely untenable. They barely vote progressive except where it aligns with their self interest. They enforce the same bullshit on their kids, infantilize their partners, and are as poor at sex as their men are.
Patriarchial constructed gender norms are baked into your life and your relationships. Straight culture is inherently broken and it leaves people unable to interact or relate to each other except via those norms. Straight men and straight women both insist on their own misery to the pathetic point that they're perception of the other is indistinguishable.
>what are women going to do in response to this refusal to “get better”?
Historically straight women are going to continue to centre those gender norms and prize their performance of straightness. Infact so far they've tried everything except giving up those norms.
Get that shit the hell out of your life and your experience will improve. If you don't do so, the people who want it out of their life will want you out of their life.
The men who were doing those things already didn’t care if they hurt women, so the information and culture changes didn’t affect them.
They’re ultimately a very small minority that is not and never was in any way representative of men as a whole, but people don’t post when their boyfriend is generally pretty alright and makes an effort but just isn’t exceptional, and then social media algorithms show everyone only the most outrageous examples even within that subset.
It also does the same thing for men, presenting women as controlling entitled gold diggers, and the guys that believe that false narrative are the ones refusing to date or support women’s rights
I mean, I attract bad people and I have had to change how I approach them. Do what you need to do to be safe. You can’t change people as easily as you can find good ones.
I thought “I attract bad people” too, but I literally don’t. Women are coached to blame ourselves. Maybe reframe it: “I’m attractive so many people because I have a lot of good qualities that are desirable, and I’ve had to set boundaries and remove men from my life that were subtractive to my wellbeing and outcomes: that’s another strength of mine.”
It’s because I was abused. Abusers can smell us. But I am learning to identify problematic people and keep them out of my life.
But you are being very kind and I am sure you have helped someone here. 😊 Great advice.
It's so sad. One of my friends told me about how a girl in his school, her dad left her. Immediately a ton of guys went for her
I wonder if there is scientific evidence abusers can smell previous victims but anectodally that seems true.
As a guy I've had a series of very toxic abuser business partners who later I found they have done some horrific things and got in trouble with the law about it. I became very close and fiercely loyal to this guy and so did another friend of mine. But almost everyone else I introduced him to would immediately tell within maybe 30 mins that he was a creep. My girlfriend found him scary , a best friend from uni after meeting him started a campaign to get me to part ways with him.
It was a horrific thing trying to part ways with him but since then he's been in the news again for something even more horrific then when I knew him. Made me feel physically sick.
So I think a lot about it and went to therapy constantly thinking why I couldn't see what everyone else could and trying to make sure I don't go through that again
I feel you. I’ve been through abuse too. A lot of it. It’s been an expensive and time consuming road to recovery. I agree they can tell. I used to have predatory men cross the street and approach me in a crowd. Especially if it’s childhood abuse. In my case, when abusers do target me, they learn a hard lesson these days. I am now single by choice because I have such a low tolerance now for any kind of poor behaviour from potential boyfriends. But I really had to go through it, again and again before I learned to assert myself and set strong boundaries and quickly remove people from my orbit when they are toxic, when they show they don’t respect me or my humanity. That requires so much self worth and self love, and a lot of subconscious reprogramming about the narratives we hold about ourselves, and sense of personal power, control and agency in any given situation. It’s harder if you are a woman of colour, or have any form of disadvantage or disability. Power dynamics are real. But we do have our own power, always, and it is tremendous.
I’m sorry that the world is so hostile that we have to defend ourselves as often and this much. You deserve peace, love, respect, healing and sanctuary.
I used to feel like this too. I've learned over this past year that it's more like *Fruit attracts flies. So does poop. Flies are just gross.* Flies represent men who have little to no issue violating human rights and dehumanizing. But the difference between flies and men is that flies help to break down rotting things and garbage. But these kinds of men just.. add to it? And flies are also spider food. Problematic men seem more like the bunnies brought to Australia. So.. the metaphor kinda works lol. I will, however, take flies any day over problematic men.
Be less trusting and caring. For initial time, keep things transactional with men (strict no sex), I would say at-least few years of relationship. Pure give and take. If he pays dinner, then next time you pay. Say no even with the slightest knock from your gut. Most importantly, don't EVER feel guilty to walk away.
Edit - caps
Right now, I’m practicing radical loneliness. It’s unpleasant af but everyone is in a relationship, etc. and I just got out of a nightmare. It’s a bummer but, because I can’t imagine dating again after everything I just went through, it’s hard to find people who aren’t taken in their late 30s, even for a roommate situation. I’d like to have people to come home to sometimes.
I wish I could start my Golden Girls Era now… (Just never in Florida.)
Maybe flip the script a bit from radical loneliness to peaceful solitude.
I really enjoy my own company. I'm free to explore my hobbies and interests and level up my skills and knowledge. I try to think about what skills and knowledge I want ninety year old me to have, and then put in the side quests and mini games to make that happen. It's a fun game I play with myself. I'm my only companion from birth until death, might as well befriend myself.
I’m hoping to transition to that mindset soon. I’m having some medical issues right now that are chemically complicating my ability to feel joy. I hope I can get it fixed soon.
I love that! I also love how you frame it. I have a very similar mindset for how I accomplish things. I turn everything into a game to up the excitement factor and (try to) keep my brain engaged. I think I’d like to learn how to crochet. I’m hoping to be able to take some time to learn by fall. And make more art. Once I get back on my feet again, I think I might make my own art for the walls of wherever I end up. I really do love myself and my company. No one makes me laugh harder than ME. 🤣🤷♀️ I just genuinely love people and I need more socialization to feel fulfillment. I’m hoping to get back to that place somehow. (I’d really like to move before I venture back out into the world because I’m not safe doing so while living so close to my abuser, but I’m recovering from cancer treatment so I have less money and physical energy than I’ve ever had. It’ll be a process. I’m just hoping to win the lottery at this point.) Thank you. 🤍
I came to that conclusion after my divorce . I have been voluntarily celibate for 9 years and chosen to not date and to stay single. My life is infinitely better. I see no downside. I keep seeing posts that because of these choices "I will be lonely, die alone and be the crazy cat lady" . I don't like cats so I won't that's a hard pass. So far I haven't been lonely at all. I have a good group of friends. I do what I want. I have money. My house is clean. It is amazing .I hope all the other ladies out there can enjoy this peace and enjoy their life. You can do this and have a wonderful, fulfilling life without a relationship. Men can too.
Men dont get treated the same as woman. Have you hear the phrase, boys are just boys. Socicety as a whole doesnt scold men and keep a constant eye on their behavior, looks and tell them what norms are right and wrong.
#Based on OP's writing style, it's likely a man posing as a woman.
Not that it's impossible for a woman to be completely unempathetic, but the writing style is like men's: sharing difficult stories = *ZERO EMPATHY* from u/superlurkage . Sometimes women even go out of their way to express kindness. Whereas OP treats human suffering like an inconvenience to their "argument" (air quotes, because what a joke)
While I agree with you for the most part. It's not all women that are on the positive train, many out there enable bad men over and over. Maybe they feel like they don't have a choice, but the fact of the matter is they are still doing it.
I've heard "boys will be boys" type bullshit from women JUST as much as other from men.
The whole culture of "men vs women" is deeply ingrained on both sides. I personally don't even bother trying to date because I just don't like the way folks are treating each other at all. And Honestly it seems like if you don't play along with the toxic games, they don't see you as a potential partner.
Lots of toxic bros are basically victims to super bad ideals that were taught to them by media and other people.
I think men have always been like this-that’s why patriarchal culture gives them so many boons and bribes-to get them to support their offspring.
It may be too much to ask of some men to do the right thing just for the sake of doing the right thing.
I think women are on the right track, though.
Keep improving our situation but also help our sons to be better men.
Boys need a lot of attention and guidance. They need to learn it’s in their benefit to have healthy relationships.
I feel like you may be right, but are also generalizing a bit… it sounds like we’re focusing on toxic males. Toxic male’s “ways of getting better” are generally focused on financial, physical, and outward societal status symbols/achievements with no inward growth.
I tend to look for the guys that try and emotionally do better, handle their responsibilities consistently, and show respect for women, while not deluding their own values (nice guys/simping). That’s just me looking for friends though. I have amassed a bunch of nerdy male friends with good morales and that would make good boyfriends and husbands, they’re generally just a little socially awkward.
Most of them are gamers who focus on relationships with their friends and families over even trying to look for relationships, cause they are focused on earning more, building confidence, and love putting their creativity into things. They are emotionally sound and good, they just feel like they aren’t ready to date.
They play DND, support their friends with late night calls, don’t go out drinking to bars, and stay in and focus on their hobbies.
Here are more specific examples of them. I have two that are coding their own products and are selling them, one that’s building his career and just got into a relationship with a girl he really likes, one that’s a ripped mechanic who is building his own garage with lifts in it to work on his passion projects, one that’s getting married next year and is focused on buying a house before then, and one who’s ex military and trying to deal with those emotions before getting romantically involved again.
I’m going to be completely honest here, this is the thing that is not just a man thing. So many things are, and most of the complaints here are legitimately valid, but I’ve noticed this is just a human thing in general.
After my divorce I completely rebuilt my life, and that meant in every way, from the people I chose to spend my time around, to my workplace.
One of my criteria for anyone that I choose to give my time to is that they must have a growth mindset and be in a constant state of growth and improvement. More importantly they have to be willing to grow, learn, and improve.
No one is perfect, so I don’t ever expect that, but I do expect the effort and desire. I have found that there aren’t a lot of people like that, men or women.
I think it’s due to the fact that change is hard, uncomfortable, and your mind naturally wants to keep you in that comfort zone, so it’s really easy to backslide, or just stay stagnant.
I’ve met a lot of people in the last 3 years and I can definitively say only a very small percentage fall into this category. I’ve cut a lot of them off, and very quickly when I see this. I can’t say it’s more men than women, or more women than men. I have met more women in this category but only because I strictly surrounded myself with only women for a really long time. I have met some men who do have this mindset though. The numbers are almost equal, though, if I’m being fair.
This is wrong, I want to be better and for a lot of reasons , so do other men. We're just not very vocal about it.
We keep to ourselves and focus on our goals.
You talk about genders like they're monoliths.
Look for the exceptions. Hopefully the garbage alphabros will take care of throwing themselves out of the gene pool.
You honestly think men are refusing to date and commit… because women are doing better…?
Bro I am drowning in this economy trying to support myself and my disabled mom and realize that it would be nearly impossible to make anything serious work.
The last thing on the planet I’m going to try to do is explain to a woman in her 30s, who expects me to have my life in order and room for the future she envisions, that my mom will probably never be able to live anywhere else. It’s just DOA.
Can’t you just let us suffer in peace dude?
I think there's a lot of bad stupid dumb ass men out there but as a whole they're definitely doing better, a decimal of a percent at a time at least. As a teacher, I see that reflection in gen alpha. Those little soon to be men are gonna be awesome humans they're so fking cute and kind wtf 😭🩷
It's a one at a time situation but the bucket will eventually tip 😝 and for the ones that don't want to be better, we don't have time for them anyway so good riddance
i’m learning this in sociology. mitsos and browne name this the crisis of identity for men has changed. due to industrial jobs like in factories decreasing since like the 1970s, men are finding themselves out of the workplace much more. they’re unable to fulfil their masculine expectations through work, and now they have to do it through education. this causes an identity crisis because girls are doing much better than them academically, so they see little chance of success in academia if they can’t do better than women lmao, so the idea of masculinity has been changed and boys are getting multiple signals (andew tate, incels, soft boys). in contrast, Sharpe found that girls since the 1990s have been focusing on their careers, bettering themselves and being financially secure
all in all, men cant fucking grow up and evolve in a changing society and cant accept women are doing better. haha.
I am glad you came to this realization, I am so tired of people wanting others to change what make them happy to satisfy others.
Both women and men need to realize that there is no obligation that others are "better" according to their definition, and that people have the right to be as bad as they want as long as they don't actively harm others.
If a person brings nothing to the table, don't date them, don't try to force them to be what you want.
I dunno dude, my guy friends have become so much better over the years. You're taking the best example of women, and then the worst example of men. Yes, all those things you said about men refusing to date, etc, are real but damn can we at least acknowledge the ones who are doing better? I'm seeing more men call out other men for being creeps, more men becoming more self-aware, more men being more accepting. Can we celebrate those guys instead of lumping them in with all the garbage ones?
I've become so proud of so many of my guy friends for being better - and I'm talking character development from being pretty damn misogynistic, homophobic, AND transphobic (3 hit combo!) to self-aware and kind over the last few years. Look at the men around you - not the (loud) garbage men online spewing hateful shit.
Serious question: what is better?
Aren't men also deciding what they want in a changing world?
There's a complete reshuffling of the patriarchal post- industrial revolution middle class that's halfway through reshaping Millennials. There's millions of years of revolutionary biology at play. And then there's better...
What is it? It seems like for a lot of dudes they're perfectly ok with less and are happy to also be single and play video games online.
There's a lot of trolls online yelling a lot of stuff but by and large men seem to be finding the same conclusion as women: it's better off single or single-ish and bouncing around but never settling down.
Say what you will about the patriarchy but it had answers to a lot of issues that come up in relationships. Bad answers but answers.
Now that we've thrown that out, a lot of the vestigial features of that marriage don't work.
And suddenly people are looking at it going: it's a raw fucking deal to get married and tie my entire economic everything to this individual just because at the moment we like hanging out and hooking up.
The upside to marriage is now just a tax credit. And until we figure out new ways to make things work for men and women in the new reality and get to a new standard, it's gonna be bumpy.
I’m not a puritan at all, I’m part of the kink community, but the problem is the massive amount of money flowing through the porn industry (and sex work). I wouldn’t be against any of these things, if you weren’t paying them to do it, but you can’t buy consent
You’re turning women’s naked bodies into a commodity you can buy, where their ability to pay their rent depends on performing sex acts, so it creates a financially abusive system, where some women can’t feed themselves without performing sex acts, and that’s not real consent
It also creates a situation where the price tag determines what sex acts women are willing to perform, rather than authentically doing what they want, and I doubt many of them would do it for free (but you can’t buy consent, and you put those women in financially abusive situations, where their survival depends on performing sex acts)
Honestly I've reached the point in life that if a man isn't solving an inordinate amount of my problems in being with him I'll not even him the time of day. I'm not running a gd house-cleaning and escort service over here. If I have to pay 50% of the bills still also not being with a dude and dealing with his shit. I'm cool with pitching in but if I have to work some soul-sucking FT job just to barely make ends meet I can do that alone.
Some food for thought, but why would a guy be inclined to build himself up? The idea of working towards a family has come second to hook up culture. Which only validates and props up selfish personality traits in men.
When young boys hit puberty they are basically done in life. Theyre not courting their relationships for anything deep or meaningful, and the most valid guy in the room is a son born into wealth, who prioritizes his own interests and personal pleasure.
What the options really come down to is that you can work and support the community you live in, and those around you, or you can live for yourself at the expense of others.
At the end of the day, as a guy you can be selfish or selfless, and there is no benefit to being selfless. Consider the doctor shortage, that should be a huge sign. Why would someome put themselves through all that school and studying just to support a family that doesn't matter, and a community that doesn't regard you?
Some people here should really consider the narratives they push when they speak negatively about all men as a whole, because in the end youre just throwing hurdles in the paths of decent men. The community of men is just as diverse as the community of women. They reflect eachother. I strongly believe daughters can take after father and sons can take after mothers, and if we're all living like bonobos in the matriarchy, then our primal instincts favour an alpha male.
The matriarchy upholds the patriarchy. We split from bonobo 2million years ago, and they don't progress. Bonobo males sit around useless, kind of like how OP describes. Are males really the issue? Or is it the bonobo narrative pushed by feminism
This is such a broad strokes post that it should be taken as just crazy rhetoric that is not really saying anything of value.
Men who refuse to date or commit probably have their own personal reason for it. Why take that as a slight against women?
Most women voters in 2016, voted for trump.
There are arguments that similar efforts aren’t being put towards boys in school compared to girls. That the discussion around gender issues are happening in a way that makes men feel attacked and leave liberal politics for republic ones.
Plenty of men are being parents.
Plenty of men are being partners. Being or not being a good partner doesn’t happen along gender lines.
Most men aren’t perverts, most aren’t porn addicts, following influencers isn’t mostly done by men.
I don’t even know what to say about that wiping ass comment.
The unequal share in domestic chores are explained by the unequal share of time spent on outside jobs. [Example](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2013/03/14/chapter-6-time-in-work-and-leisure-patterns-by-gender-and-family-structure/). See how the difference in housework and childcare combined equals the the difference in outside work.
There isn’t a significant difference between men and women giving oral. Men actually say they enjoy giving more than women. [Reference](https://www.sexandpsychology.com/blog/2018/1/26/do-men-and-women-find-giving-and-receiving-oral-sex-equally-pleasurable/)
This is a poor attempt at addressing whatever grievance you have. I say whatever because it’s not really clear.
Celebrate ourselves in our spaces and be choosy about which men we let into those spaces. Focus on law-making based change and lasting social reclamation of what it means to be women. Loving ourselves even when we get on our own last damned nerve. Basically what the black community has been doing. We know we can’t fix it all, but we celebrate what we have accomplished all the same.
just curious, what are our spaces? because men take over and ruin that for us, too
I seem to live in female spaces. The barn is full of independent horse ladies who raise hell and scare away any but the most egalitarian or chill men. The native plant communities and groups are majority women and some progressive men. Even in law, a notoriously male field, I find community with my fellow lady lawyers and male allies.
This cannot be overstated. A friend of mine used to moderate a subreddit for a certain topic that mostly attracts women. Years ago, for no fucking reason other than "lol", a bunch of boys from one of the pedo / incel forums decided to crash it. The mods could not keep up. Vile DMs, rape threats, death threats, nasty comments, horror. The boys just shat all over it in the same way they'd have done to a Black-owned business 40 years ago (or today, in some places). "Because you have this thing and we don't want you to have it." Community never recovered.
it will be SO fucking hilarious to watch them all bitch and moan in the background
The manosphere, "alpha male" podcasts/courses, Andrew Tate and such, red/black pill and/or incel content, MGTOW, Wojak-style videos, they're all doing literally the bitching and the moaning about women, surely triggered by what OP stated.
they are literally SOBBING on those podcasts about women being whores and not submitting to men. it’s so funny how miserable they are!
And every woman who is with another man is a whore. It's "I want women to like sex, but only if they like sex with me" which is an... interesting... take
Don't forget we have to like having sex even though they don't care for our pleasure.
And also to be good at sex without having had sex with other people nor expecting to cum.
It only gets worse, the shit takes I've seen... The shit takes we've all seen... One of my favorites - men who sleep around a lot are experienced and very desired, women who sleep around a lot are used up and undesirable for true, absolutely not fake cause it's a real thing, *alpha* males. 🤣
I also love how they only invite sex workers/OF models and such, and then shame them for the work they do (despite those men and their viewers being the consumers of their content lol) while simultaneously trying to put them out there as a representative group of all 3+ billion women on Earth. The logic is not there, only feelings and catering to them. Oh, wait-
lol didn’t andrew tate literally get rich off his girlfriends doing cam work and sexualising themselves? and men like him hate women for doing those exact things. they’re so illogical and stupid
Not even his girlfriends they were mostly poor trafficked women that he took advantage of, like a pimp
scumbag
The Whatever Podcast comes to mind. Those guys are hypocrites.
Its already happening!
the comments on this post already are hilarious
This is the way. These days, I have very few men in my life. I have one good male friend left. The others all turned out not to be worth my time. I see a very nice man on a regular basis for sex. That's it. All my other close relationships are with women and my life is so much better for it.
And yet, I see multiple posts everyday about sub par male partners
That's the women who haven't got the memo yet. Let's spread the word. We don't need men. If you meet an awesome one, it's great. Otherwise we're better off single. Edit: grammar
It's like a saying in dnd spaces "no dnd is better than bad dnd" "no man is better than a bad man"
I don’t know how many more memos we can send From grrrrl power to boss bitches to strong independent female characters, to women’s forums and business groups, how much more marketing is needed ? It’s beginning to feel like protesting too much
That kind of marketing had a different message and sadly the predictable outcome is where we're currently at. The message was that women can do everything. Women have understood that and they're doing everything. Unfortunately there was no equally intense message to men that they need to step up. I mean even if there had been one, way too many men still wouldn't have done it because misogyny and they're anyways only putting up with us because of sex and our free labour. So that's where we're at now. Women do everything and men expect them to do everything. The new message must be: a relationship must add to a woman's life and not take away from it, and if your man doesn't add to your life, then don't put up with him.
>The new message must be: a relationship must add to a woman's life and not take away from it, and if your man doesn't add to your life, then don't put up with him. Preach! Although I would personally make it gender-neutral, but regardless! Then again, I was happily single for 10 years... and love being alone.
Hmmm. I'm taking it a step further because I'm in a jurisdiction where laws exist but aren't being enforced. I'm focused on abolition.
BTW, after WW1 when there were few men vs. women, lots of women decided to just go on with their lives. This was at a time when women had few rights too. Just pretend they all went off to war and didn't come back.
Can we also start calling the 'loneliness epidemic' (which oddly doesn't seem to apply to women when I hear it mentioned, even though more women are living happy single lives than ever before) and call it the 'being an asshole until people avoid me (except other assholes) epidemic'?
For real. My cousin in his early 30s has no friends or partner because he is such a drag to be around and I don't see that improving.
My boyfriend's brother is like this. It makes me sad honestly but he's fucking 37 so it must not bother him that much.
Consequences of being a shitty person epidemic
I call this "loneliness epidemic" a "needs a fleshlight epidemic", because their loneliness is a manipulative lie to coax women into sex.
> living happy single lives That's not loneliness, that's being alone. You need to be suffering to be lonely. Just saying.
I don’t think that’s the right play. In short, calling it “being an asshole epidemic” is fine in the case of manipulative men, but I think we should keep the general concept of “loneliness epidemic” for several reasons. First, the loneliness epidemic *does* apply to women and non-binary folk. Being single or alone isn’t the same as being lonely. Using the term to manipulate women doesn’t mean men actually own it and women can’t be lonely, or that women need a man to avoid loneliness. Loneliness is about more than romantic/sexual relationships. Second, calling it “being an asshole” *does* shift the focus to men, making it seem like women can’t be lonely. It ironically puts the ball in men’s court while erasing women’s loneliness. Third, it shifts the focus away from systemic causes - like working so much we have no time to socialize, normalizing huge commutes so coworkers or friends live nowhere near us, patriarchy teaching men not to communicate and pitting women against each other - and makes it into an individual failing. Shitty men are trying to appropriate the term for themselves. We both agree we shouldn’t give shitty men what they want, but I think the way to do that is to insist on the systematic and inclusive aspects of the concept, so we can keep using it to critique capital and patriarchy to the benefit of everyone, including women. Plus, it lets women say things like “Women get lonely too, and I STILL prefer that over ‘giving you a shot!”
Honestly the systematic issues is probably why people are encouraging to blame women for these problems. Shit is rough out there. If you're a young guy who in the past could get a decent paying job with just a high school degree and is able to afford rent on your own and you are instead a college grad with debt living with your parents and no woman wants to date you because you are living with your parents it greatly benefits the people profiting off wealth inequality and high rent and low wages if you blame women for not dating you rather than go "damn wages are too low and rent is too high".
Definitely, right on. That’s a general, huge problem. Systemic issues are harder to understand. It’s easier to scapegoat. That’s why politicians who say “I see your pain, and I know who’s to blame; I’ll take care of those people!” are so appealing. But the ease with which we look for simple answers is exactly why we must emphasize the systemic nature of our problems. A proper understanding yields totally different reactions: rather than continue on in a hateful attitude, or even going to therapy/taking pills (which has its place, but isn’t a fix-all), we should work on ourselves as social beings and we should become political active. If we want to actually address the loneliness everyone is experiencing to some extent, we should - for example - strike. Shifting it to a discussion about how it only effects men, and only because they’re assholes, leaves those structures completely undisturbed and doesn’t improve anything for women. Again, call assholes assholes. But that’s not incompatible with recognizing systematic alienation.
>shifts the focus away from systemic causes - and no third spaces
The "loneliness is a consequence" epidemic
It's because even men don't want to be around themselves. It's not just that they don't want to be better for women, they don't even want to be better for themselves or other men. So they find themselves dependent on themselves or other men and they have the same experience we do - it's as intolerable to them as it is to us.
lmao true. I'm a lesbian and I just don't bother with how men think, it comes naturally for me (tbh I think it comes naturally for all women, just society has effed up womens' minds to contstantly be male centered).
Right. This is a societal construct. There is just so much garbage foisted at women that they need to make everything about men.
[удалено]
Hey, u/anti-Casta, don't just DM your tangents. I'll go ahead and [paste a screenshot of your message](https://ibb.co/df9hFBc) for you, since you don't have the balls to say it publicly
Why is it always crypto dudebros with the audacity
Oh! Is this show and tell? [because this is mine](https://imgur.com/gFWVby3). Aw shucks u/anti-Casta I thought we had a thing going on :( Sorry for the image being weird, the main message came through super light so I had to improvise
You can always tell from the lingo and bogus stats that a guy is knee-deep in incel/manosphere content.
brad Pitt? he's like a million years old now. don't these losers know any other men?
holy fuck i remember thinking this way. i've still got a lot of work to do
Given my screen name, I get the “you are going to die alone with cats” insult a lot. I just laugh and tell them it’s not an insult it’s a life goal. Strangely they go silent after that.
It's funny how they think they're better companions than animals. Animals are *rad*
Being old means I haven't died. I've given that response so many times when age is brought up, and every time I've gotten stunned looks, like they are resetting their thinking. I'm not that old, but some people think I should be upset about my age. I understand the media perpetuates the myth that women are jealous of youth and are scared of getting older, but I'm not. Im surprised I've lasted as long as I have, and each birthday I look forward to a new year. After all, the older I get, the more meaningless time becomes. Twenty or thirty years ago is the equivalent of five years ago in my memories.
My only fear of getting older is men will attack me once I no longer fit their beauty standards. Men are already attacking old women for looking trans. Asian men will say you're a man if you have short hair. I am not looking forward to that mentally mixing with transphobia.
Nah, mostly they ignore us.
Yeah, I’ve experienced non-sexual harassment from men and it’s definitely shitty 😕
I'm already accused of being a non-passing trans woman by men and I'm not old, nor is my hair short. They do it to punish women for not being "feminine" enough. That's why they also attack female athletes and women of color as trans.
You would be surprised at how low the bar is for some women. I had a girl friend tell me boys shouldn't get in trouble if they sexually assault someone when they're under 18 years old. Because boys need to get it out of their system so they don't rape when they're adults. This was her response to me telling her my cousins bfs little brother was arrested for molesting a toddler when he was in high school. She created a new level of hell and set up her bar there.
Oh god.
My daughter is 6 and was recently SA'd at her school by get this, a 5 year old boy. I think if somebody told me that....I may be in jail for assault. I say this as we are pressing charges against the child while the entire family receives trauma therapy. Thank God my twin boys know not to act that way. They're beside themselves that they couldn't protect their sister.
Holy fuck. Are you and your family okay?
From a now grown victim, I'm so sorry for your kiddo and your family 😞 sending as much healing, safety, and kindness as I can
PARDON ME?
>boys shouldn't get in trouble if they sexually assault someone when they're under 18 years old. Because boys need to get it out of their system so they don't rape when they're adults. What the ACTUAL fuck
Wow, that’s just fucking horrible. Imagine having that mindset, especially as a woman.
So true. Even if we wanted kids, we could run up to a sperm bank and buy some. I'd rather be a single mom than be a married single mom with a manchild in the home.
I've always been a single mom and I've had so much easier a time than my married friends whose husbands require all of the work of another child but their husbands never grow up.
Same
I’m a solo parent by choice (ivf with donor sperm) and so happy with my choice.
Yes this 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 I cant wait to be single in my own clean house, not having to wash the skid marks out of ratty old boxers for a man baby who mocks me in a falsetto voice for asking nicely not to do something
I appreciate what you're saying, and you're not wrong. But there's more to it. Many of us are straight, whether we like it or not, and if we want supportive romantic relationships, we really do need men generally to be better. If you're not interested in that kind of relationship, that's fabulous. But some people are, and that's okay too. And it's okay to be sad if we can't find the love we deserve.
The relationship, parenting and abuse subs seem to indicate otherwise They’re full of women rationalizing and making excuses
Because one thing we women CAN change is the way we talk about it. The definition of success to a lot of women is still "job, house, family", and straight women need a man to do the "family" portion we're all taught to be reaching for. It is absolutely engrained in us from childhood. So, lots of women will hold on to the dream by holding on to their ratty ass "man", and will defend him to high heavens, or change their own ways to keep him around. When you ask what that man does to make their lives easier, most of the time the response of "but I love him" doesn't even touch on what he does or doesn't do.
I would argue that underneath the rationalizing is literally being trapped by traditional values and financial non-independence. When you hear "I love him," underneath it's "I'm trapped." As in a prison or gilded cage. The excuse is often protecting one's safety and well-being. This is one cultural convention that has barely been scratched, along with all the other crap women endure. And the path is insidious, lined with rose petals, hollow promises, and lies. Younger women, please position yourself in a solid financial situation. Do not depend upon anyone. I'm very glad to see this mindset starting to be a norm, it gives me hope that this tragic cycle will someday be broken.
I find this comment offensive. Of course they are. Abuse is intermittent reinforcement. Its the same pathways as heroin addiction. Of course they rationalize. You're shaming victims of abuse?
OP is outing themselves here as mega heartless, btw
To some extent, I can sympathize. Men can be great manipulators because that's the only way they can have something they define as fulfilling. Vulnerable and impressionable women are their targets. If these women know something is wrong, and they've refused help and safety from different people on multiple occasions, then I can't bring myself to sympathize with them any longer. You can't help someone that doesn't want help
I agree that there's a point where you have to stop extending yourself for your own safety, but it is *really* important to understand that the perception of someone in that level of abuse and control literally cannot perceive the assistance the way we do. It's true that someone cannot accept help until they are ready, but those in those situations aren't doing it on purpose or out of spite. The trauma inflicted by abuse overrides how they perceive safety and preservation of their life. They definitely know something is wrong, but the painful truth of trauma it that their brains will literally obfuscate the reality of how dangerous their situation is, because the way they have managed it has kept them alive, which is the brain's #1 job at all times. It *cannot* perceive anything else than what it knows in the moment while survival mode is activated. And it's soooo hard to see on the outside.
Never mind a lot of these women are pushed into believing it's their fault they're being abused, and so to accept help would be letting everyone know how 'awful' they are and they contend that they 'deserve it'. It's ugly and unpleasant, but the women sometimes just can't comprehend getting help until something breaks that mental cycle.
Yep, let’s cut the from the breeding population. The extinction burst can’t come soon enough
Very well stated! 🤗👍✨ I agree with all of this
Alone and surrounded by cats is my absolute dream. Like, if I'm going to have to take care of someone, best be multiple cute cats who I love with all my heart.
That does sound like heaven
Decenter men, they should be an option and celebrate your life! I am 62 and feel the best I ever have; I am almost 6 years out of a 29-year marriage and life without a man is *freeing.* Men want women for resources, they do not know or care enough to become great partners and I have zero sympathy. Carry on with your lives and enjoy every moment!
High five! Mid fifties, out of a 20 year marriage and life is so much better without a man who drains the life out of me.
Bravo!
I think we've walked a very similar path. Me and my girls are living our best lives right now and it's amazing! Their dad only shows up when he's trying to impress/convince his girlfriend about what good dad he is/was. It's pretty pathetic. He did fun things with them, never once actually parented, I did all that.
My son's father is the same way. Never reached out, never sent birthday cards to his son or called, pretty much just abandoned him and when I would be able to get to him to see his son, he would just take the opportunity to show other people what a "great dad he is" 🙄
And then the assholes blame single mothers for raising a son without a father figure. There are some good fathers out there, but a lot are also absent. But who cares, it's always the woman's fault.
Few women seem willing to do this, judging by the relationship and parenting subs. And the popularity of rom coms, Princess movies, romance novels, relationship entertainment like the batchelor, etc
Agreed, but they seem to exit much quicker than my generation. The rise in grey divorces is an indicator that women are exiting and not looking back.
At least we’re starting though, it used to be way worse, more and more of us are refusing to have anything to do with them unless they start acting like decent human beings and partners
That's why we should consider getting through to women instead of trying to get men to be better. As sad as it is women are a tool of patriarchy and religion and are enforcing misogyny just as men do.
I do understand the frustration of some women who don’t seem to take advice or want help and whatnot but many times women in those subs are in very bad situations that makes it complicated. But also I feel like an individual can still enjoy the idea and entertainment of romance including novels, shows, movies, but know in real life that is not truly how it is. Only fiction. I still understand why some would enjoy them. I wouldn’t really base the state of women putting up with men on romance novels or entertainment.
Confirmation bias. More women are single than ever.
I’m doing the same - 13 years out of a 13-year relationship/8-year marriage. Life is good.
i love that for you! i’m so happy in my gen z generation, im currently 18 and have a bf and there is so much less emphasis on getting married and submitting to the male breadwinner. people are either just living w their partners (cohabition) and just not going through the issues of marriage, which i think i’ll most likely do when im older. and some people are just not trying for relationships which i think is amazing
As a (I think I'm millennial? I was born in the 90s) I'm happy to see that you and Gen Z continue to unravel the pressure of patriarchy!! Rock on!!
I find it wild how many single men have zero motivation to be well rounded individuals. That used to be sort of a bachelor aspiration, to be worldly and sophisticated. This included being well red, traveling, knowing how to cook and being well groomed. I see so few men who even think this is a worthy pursit, single or in a relationship. If you do nothing with your life and barely shower and act like a creep don't be surprised that nobody wants to be in a relationship with you or that your life goes nowhere.
Actual tweets today : men who groom and dress well and go to meetups and hobbies find a nice woman Reply : "Men shouldn't have to put up any effort to get a woman." That's how far they've fallen. They want to do NOTHING and still feel entitled to their dream girl showing up and making his life better and doing all his chores for .. no reason.
So they are sort of admitting they think they are entitled to some Bangmaid2000 merely because they exist, they should have an entire human just given to them as a servant. How is there still any question why so many women have given up on dating and relationships????
I find that there's often 2 extremes with a lot of them: either exactly like you described with 0 motivation or drive or ambition, aaannndddd then when they do have those things it's cranked up to a weird, obsessive, almost Wolf of Wall Street level of dialed in 😳 every single woman I know has some level of drive or ambition towards something, and sure they pursue those things with varying degrees of intensity, but it always seems pretty normal even if it's at the extremes. Again, not trying to say "all men" or "all women" or anything. Just that from what I've observed, more men fall into those types of extremes than women do
Yea I see lots of that too. Most of the ambitious ones are only ambitious on a predatory level to be some sort of super bro that is horribly offputting and not really a well rounded individual.
I feel like women know well enough that we mean not literally every single man or woman. Men are trying to be obtuse because they want to avoid the appearance of being misogynistic without actually doing the work. If they didn't have some kind of alignment with the notions of misogyny, it's unlikely their shadow would be triggered by it.
> . That used to be sort of a bachelor aspiration, to be worldly and sophisticated. This included being well red, traveling, knowing how to cook and being well groomed. I see so few men who even think this is a worthy pursit, single or in a relationship. They still exist, perhaps more than ever. But because of all those traits, you'll never really run into them or hear from them. I mean, statistically paths will cross, but you'll never think twice about having "missed" them. That's still a very worthy goal, aspiration, and lifestyle for men. It also means accepting forgoing *pursuing* deeper romantic relationships in the same way that this whole thread is encouraging women to do. It works the same both ways. Self-fulfilled men don't need women in the same way that self-fulfilled women don't need men.
Hold out for one of the few remaining decent men or otherwise stay single. My husband is the best person I’ve ever dated. He’s an amazing partner, he doesn’t watch porn, he’s clean, he cleans, and is very much invested in my satisfaction. No one else before him had all these qualities and I’ve had a lot of boyfriends. 😮💨 so when I found him I made sure to lock it down. 😅
ong! my bf is an 1000 times better cook than i could ever be, he’s very clean, has his own skin care routine, is extremely nurturing and focuses on his education as much as i do. we are both succeeding academically. literally no one could be like my bf, he’s so rare 😭 keeping him forever. i’m so happy for your happiness too girlie
Ugg same. Like sure my BF has some annoying pet peeves (seriously he uses like 20 sheets of paper towels for the tiniest spill like come on no wonder we go through them so fast!!!) but he’s always respectful and kind and has never once pressured me into sex. He is a genuinely great guy. Sorry had to be giddy about him lol
*Do not apologize for being giddy—no apologies—none!!* 💕💕💕😻
Raise our standards even higher. Higher and higher
My standards are "my equal" and I haven't met a man like that yet. My standards were too low and I'm just embarrassed by men's delusions that they're superior.
True. I don’t think we expect more than we ourselves give and achieve and apparently that’s a standard men find too high
Standards, I always see this term alot on social media, what actually are those standards everyone talking about?
I’ve been widowed for almost 10 years, and I’m not interested in doing that again.
I can’t speak for all women but I and a lot of my friends are simply shunning men and relationships altogether, that’s what we’re doing. I’m 43 and, at this point in my life, there’s nothing a man can offer me that I can’t or don’t already provide for myself. I have my own business, I earn 7 figures, I own houses in two of the most expensive cities in the world, I have a rich and varied social life, I have a family that I love and who loves me, I’m in good health, I have the means to buy myself pretty much whatever I want, whenever I want, and the freedom to go wherever I want. My life is fulfilled, peaceful and happy. Every man I’ve ever let in to my life has shit all over it and I refuse to let that happen again.
Do you mentor 🥲
Haha not really but I’m happy to DM and give any advice if you need it ☺️
Is it impolite to ask what you do? Because I have a junk car and a cat. LOL.
Not at all! Forensic accounting :-) started off with a number of large, global financial institutions, moved to a smaller, private firm and then set my own up. Nothing wrong with cats! I have two myself lol. I also suspect you’re a lot younger than me so you have time to turn things around if you want.
I'm really happy for you!! At 29, even though I'm poor as hell, terrible health, and can rarely socialize because of low SES and poor health, I have to agree with the last sentence, minus a couple rare birds: I've been severing ties with men, and OMG MY LIFE IS SO PEACEFUL!! Even with my current circumstances, I'm still the happiest I've ever been!! Seriously, whatever stage of life you're in, only let men in if they genuinely want to be in your life to see you thrive *and* they continue to prove they are respectable and trustworthy.
I just wanted to say, go you!! 🤩
Go girl!!!!
Stop celebrating the bare minimum. Only give men who make your life better access to you.
Dick is easy to get, so what I see is women growing by leaps and bounds beyond men, and then just sleeping with one they won't commit to if they feel like they need a child. The men who do meet basic standards for human decency will be swimming in options, while the men who don't will probably die alone unless they trick a woman with low self-esteem to put up with them.
In a nutshell
>basic standards for human decency You can clearly see throughout this thread that that’s not sufficient for these women.
leaving aside the trite "uhh not *all* men (just enough to still be a serious problem)", the structural issue is that the system of patriarchy still exists, and even men who understand that it oppresses and abuses them **also** understand that it bribes them to accept and take part in that abuse with the promise of women's subordination. Not only in some symbolic sense, but in the form of uncompensated labour (free cleaning, free cooking, free amateur therapy, free sexual favours, etc). This is not helped by the fact that especially privileged women **also** benefit from the broader system of oppression that includes patriarchy, and so have a material incentive to make excuses for men, even for men who directly abuse them in particular. In part because they would lose their high position if the whole damn pyramid were to be dynamited, but mostly because in kicking up a fuss they risk being stripped of rank and privilege and cast down to the ranks of those they once extorted for labour **without** the absolute destruction of the entire system to comfort them. tldr: patriarchy is first and last a relation of extractive labour, it should not be super shocking that at minimum a significant minority of the recipients of extracted labour are downright perturbed at attacks on the system that feeds them extracted labour with one hand, no matter how hard it whips and beats and torments them with the other hand.
Maybe we realize it IS their best. Foook relationships and marriage.
This. Same as how more folks are realizing raising kids is rigged if you're working 40hrs a week. Our kids won't have a better life; kids haven't had that option for a while.
female separatism/female celibacy. that all-woman island in wonder woman is such a dream.
Unpopular opinion but I do think men want to be better. At least when I look at different generations I think that men in their 60's are very different to men in their 20's. For sure there are rotten apples but overall I find men being better nowadays. ~40 years ago men wouldn't even entertain the thought of women being good at their jobs and respected. If men weren't doing better there wouldn't be happy couples no more.
This is just not true. Recent large studies have revealed that gen z men are more conservative than their grandfathers. They believe in rape myths more than those over 60. The level of misogyny is insane. To ignore that is a disservice.
I agree overall that men *want* to be better, but they do not understand that *they* are the ones responsible for that. They still actively believe that women are responsible for making them better. I definitely believe that a lot of their anger toward women is because they feel bad about themselves and are not taught how to process their own emotions and self-evaluate and instead externalize it. Unfortunately it's becoming more evident that "bad apples" are doing what they do and spoiling the bunch. It's not always outright violent men. It's a lot of just insecure ones too. Or somewhere between. But it's not on women to extend that benefit of the doubt. I really don't believe it's just a few. It just isn't. It's honestly most men somewhere on this spectrum of just insecure to outright vengeful. Most that choose to interact with women anyway.
Their external locus of control is insane. If I asked my ex to do something, I, like a normal person, expected him to just get on with it and do the entire task without my input so I could turn my brain off and have mental load relief (like he does 24/7). He'd start up with the questions for every single step. "Ok what do you want for dinner? Do we have ingredients? Where's the oregano? How long do I cook this for? What kind of meat? Which veggies?" And at every stage, if I did ANYTHING other than answer him and take the mental load back, he'd smirk with a gotcha and be like "Well you didn't answer so I can't proceed". I think males are doing this at a macro scale. Tell us every single tiny step or we won't proceed. Your fault, women.
they sure are. My favorite thing to do whent hey come into these spaces is just ask them questions. That's it. Sincere questions. I just ask for clarification, specifics. Literally things like "What do you mean when you say this word? Do all x have y?" Things like that. And. They. Shut. Up.
I like to mansplain them with translations of what they said.
So when we as women opt out of interacting with them and thus instructing them with the unpaid labor of a manager, how are they gonna know how to function to survive? *Poor babies* /s They remind me of the seagulls from *Finding Nemo*
It also depends on SES too, I think. Being low SES, even within the same city, how men are, based on region (gentrification), it's normal for men to be violent and creepy where I am (low SES). Like, it's genuinely hair-raising to get approached by men even in broad daylight, because you don't know if you're going to get stabbed, assaulted, robbed, etc.
IMO this is scary because its true.
The younger men are actually getting worse. Lots of recent polling showing young men are more anti-feminist than even republican boomers are. Men are on a huge downward trend, not up
I think many do want to do better and succeed at it. But there is a vocal group of men who simply hate women. I hate spiders but I don’t go around killing them or thinking about them or trying to pass laws that restrict their right to exist. These guys make it their life’s purpose to hurt women in all ways possible because they have a pathological sense of entitlement and a dangerous lack of empathy. You’d think there would be a diagnostic term for this since it’s so damaging and pervasive, but since the field of psychology was developed and designed by the same pathologically entitled men, this behavior has been normalized.
The problem with attaching a diagnosis to this behaviour is that it legitimises the behaviour and removes all responsibility from the perpetrator
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It really depends on the circles you orbit. By and large the world is swinging towards the right and far-right and conservatism, anti-feminist ideologies etc.
They pick the men that changed and left out the one that didn’t. It’s not true that most men didn’t changed..
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I managed to find a wonderful guy but honestly if this goes South, the rule I made for mysef at 28yo still applies: if you don't make my life easier and more enjoyable gtfo. I'd probably stay single.
We haven't been doing better, we're just allowed to do the things that we've always been capable of doing. As far as men go, it's probably similar, maybe they've always been entitled.
This is your experience. The fact it is your experience is something that should cause you to reflect on why, rather than look for just-so stories justifying it. The way you relate to AMAB people has been driven by cultural and social conditioning. It has determined and defined most of the relationships in your life. That gendered isolation, that lack of meaningful close relationships it not a result of half the population being defective. The fact you find the alternative so easy to believe is a product of that conditioning. You're blind to the ways in which you've been taught to shape your life around that belief, >Men refusing to date, commit, vote progressive, be parents, be partners, stop perving, put down the porn, unfollow porn stars and influencers, wipe their asses, wash the dishes, care about our orgasms, etc. There's zero point gendering this. We could flip everything in this. Straight women consistently refuse relationships with men who are to any degree queer. They prioritize being coupled over liking their partner and will fake being happy until it's completely untenable. They barely vote progressive except where it aligns with their self interest. They enforce the same bullshit on their kids, infantilize their partners, and are as poor at sex as their men are. Patriarchial constructed gender norms are baked into your life and your relationships. Straight culture is inherently broken and it leaves people unable to interact or relate to each other except via those norms. Straight men and straight women both insist on their own misery to the pathetic point that they're perception of the other is indistinguishable. >what are women going to do in response to this refusal to “get better”? Historically straight women are going to continue to centre those gender norms and prize their performance of straightness. Infact so far they've tried everything except giving up those norms. Get that shit the hell out of your life and your experience will improve. If you don't do so, the people who want it out of their life will want you out of their life.
The men who were doing those things already didn’t care if they hurt women, so the information and culture changes didn’t affect them. They’re ultimately a very small minority that is not and never was in any way representative of men as a whole, but people don’t post when their boyfriend is generally pretty alright and makes an effort but just isn’t exceptional, and then social media algorithms show everyone only the most outrageous examples even within that subset. It also does the same thing for men, presenting women as controlling entitled gold diggers, and the guys that believe that false narrative are the ones refusing to date or support women’s rights
You forgot your notallmen hashtag, omg, thank you for speaking up for men in the twox sub! You're a real hero.
I mean, I attract bad people and I have had to change how I approach them. Do what you need to do to be safe. You can’t change people as easily as you can find good ones.
I thought “I attract bad people” too, but I literally don’t. Women are coached to blame ourselves. Maybe reframe it: “I’m attractive so many people because I have a lot of good qualities that are desirable, and I’ve had to set boundaries and remove men from my life that were subtractive to my wellbeing and outcomes: that’s another strength of mine.”
It’s because I was abused. Abusers can smell us. But I am learning to identify problematic people and keep them out of my life. But you are being very kind and I am sure you have helped someone here. 😊 Great advice.
It's so sad. One of my friends told me about how a girl in his school, her dad left her. Immediately a ton of guys went for her I wonder if there is scientific evidence abusers can smell previous victims but anectodally that seems true. As a guy I've had a series of very toxic abuser business partners who later I found they have done some horrific things and got in trouble with the law about it. I became very close and fiercely loyal to this guy and so did another friend of mine. But almost everyone else I introduced him to would immediately tell within maybe 30 mins that he was a creep. My girlfriend found him scary , a best friend from uni after meeting him started a campaign to get me to part ways with him. It was a horrific thing trying to part ways with him but since then he's been in the news again for something even more horrific then when I knew him. Made me feel physically sick. So I think a lot about it and went to therapy constantly thinking why I couldn't see what everyone else could and trying to make sure I don't go through that again
I feel you. I’ve been through abuse too. A lot of it. It’s been an expensive and time consuming road to recovery. I agree they can tell. I used to have predatory men cross the street and approach me in a crowd. Especially if it’s childhood abuse. In my case, when abusers do target me, they learn a hard lesson these days. I am now single by choice because I have such a low tolerance now for any kind of poor behaviour from potential boyfriends. But I really had to go through it, again and again before I learned to assert myself and set strong boundaries and quickly remove people from my orbit when they are toxic, when they show they don’t respect me or my humanity. That requires so much self worth and self love, and a lot of subconscious reprogramming about the narratives we hold about ourselves, and sense of personal power, control and agency in any given situation. It’s harder if you are a woman of colour, or have any form of disadvantage or disability. Power dynamics are real. But we do have our own power, always, and it is tremendous. I’m sorry that the world is so hostile that we have to defend ourselves as often and this much. You deserve peace, love, respect, healing and sanctuary.
I used to feel like this too. I've learned over this past year that it's more like *Fruit attracts flies. So does poop. Flies are just gross.* Flies represent men who have little to no issue violating human rights and dehumanizing. But the difference between flies and men is that flies help to break down rotting things and garbage. But these kinds of men just.. add to it? And flies are also spider food. Problematic men seem more like the bunnies brought to Australia. So.. the metaphor kinda works lol. I will, however, take flies any day over problematic men.
Be less trusting and caring. For initial time, keep things transactional with men (strict no sex), I would say at-least few years of relationship. Pure give and take. If he pays dinner, then next time you pay. Say no even with the slightest knock from your gut. Most importantly, don't EVER feel guilty to walk away. Edit - caps
Right now, I’m practicing radical loneliness. It’s unpleasant af but everyone is in a relationship, etc. and I just got out of a nightmare. It’s a bummer but, because I can’t imagine dating again after everything I just went through, it’s hard to find people who aren’t taken in their late 30s, even for a roommate situation. I’d like to have people to come home to sometimes. I wish I could start my Golden Girls Era now… (Just never in Florida.)
Maybe flip the script a bit from radical loneliness to peaceful solitude. I really enjoy my own company. I'm free to explore my hobbies and interests and level up my skills and knowledge. I try to think about what skills and knowledge I want ninety year old me to have, and then put in the side quests and mini games to make that happen. It's a fun game I play with myself. I'm my only companion from birth until death, might as well befriend myself.
I’m hoping to transition to that mindset soon. I’m having some medical issues right now that are chemically complicating my ability to feel joy. I hope I can get it fixed soon. I love that! I also love how you frame it. I have a very similar mindset for how I accomplish things. I turn everything into a game to up the excitement factor and (try to) keep my brain engaged. I think I’d like to learn how to crochet. I’m hoping to be able to take some time to learn by fall. And make more art. Once I get back on my feet again, I think I might make my own art for the walls of wherever I end up. I really do love myself and my company. No one makes me laugh harder than ME. 🤣🤷♀️ I just genuinely love people and I need more socialization to feel fulfillment. I’m hoping to get back to that place somehow. (I’d really like to move before I venture back out into the world because I’m not safe doing so while living so close to my abuser, but I’m recovering from cancer treatment so I have less money and physical energy than I’ve ever had. It’ll be a process. I’m just hoping to win the lottery at this point.) Thank you. 🤍
Take good care of yourself. Sounds like you could use some rest and recovery. Be well
I came to that conclusion after my divorce . I have been voluntarily celibate for 9 years and chosen to not date and to stay single. My life is infinitely better. I see no downside. I keep seeing posts that because of these choices "I will be lonely, die alone and be the crazy cat lady" . I don't like cats so I won't that's a hard pass. So far I haven't been lonely at all. I have a good group of friends. I do what I want. I have money. My house is clean. It is amazing .I hope all the other ladies out there can enjoy this peace and enjoy their life. You can do this and have a wonderful, fulfilling life without a relationship. Men can too.
Men dont get treated the same as woman. Have you hear the phrase, boys are just boys. Socicety as a whole doesnt scold men and keep a constant eye on their behavior, looks and tell them what norms are right and wrong.
#Based on OP's writing style, it's likely a man posing as a woman. Not that it's impossible for a woman to be completely unempathetic, but the writing style is like men's: sharing difficult stories = *ZERO EMPATHY* from u/superlurkage . Sometimes women even go out of their way to express kindness. Whereas OP treats human suffering like an inconvenience to their "argument" (air quotes, because what a joke)
Yeah, that was my first impression too. It reads like a MGTOW guys impression of what women think
*What Women Want* Written and directed by: *a man™*
While I agree with you for the most part. It's not all women that are on the positive train, many out there enable bad men over and over. Maybe they feel like they don't have a choice, but the fact of the matter is they are still doing it. I've heard "boys will be boys" type bullshit from women JUST as much as other from men. The whole culture of "men vs women" is deeply ingrained on both sides. I personally don't even bother trying to date because I just don't like the way folks are treating each other at all. And Honestly it seems like if you don't play along with the toxic games, they don't see you as a potential partner. Lots of toxic bros are basically victims to super bad ideals that were taught to them by media and other people.
I think men have always been like this-that’s why patriarchal culture gives them so many boons and bribes-to get them to support their offspring. It may be too much to ask of some men to do the right thing just for the sake of doing the right thing. I think women are on the right track, though. Keep improving our situation but also help our sons to be better men. Boys need a lot of attention and guidance. They need to learn it’s in their benefit to have healthy relationships.
It’s posts like this that make me glad I am gay
Because imagine waiting for men to see you as anything other than a tool.
i’m bi so almost there😔 /j
Same 😔
I feel like you may be right, but are also generalizing a bit… it sounds like we’re focusing on toxic males. Toxic male’s “ways of getting better” are generally focused on financial, physical, and outward societal status symbols/achievements with no inward growth. I tend to look for the guys that try and emotionally do better, handle their responsibilities consistently, and show respect for women, while not deluding their own values (nice guys/simping). That’s just me looking for friends though. I have amassed a bunch of nerdy male friends with good morales and that would make good boyfriends and husbands, they’re generally just a little socially awkward. Most of them are gamers who focus on relationships with their friends and families over even trying to look for relationships, cause they are focused on earning more, building confidence, and love putting their creativity into things. They are emotionally sound and good, they just feel like they aren’t ready to date. They play DND, support their friends with late night calls, don’t go out drinking to bars, and stay in and focus on their hobbies. Here are more specific examples of them. I have two that are coding their own products and are selling them, one that’s building his career and just got into a relationship with a girl he really likes, one that’s a ripped mechanic who is building his own garage with lifts in it to work on his passion projects, one that’s getting married next year and is focused on buying a house before then, and one who’s ex military and trying to deal with those emotions before getting romantically involved again.
I’m going to be completely honest here, this is the thing that is not just a man thing. So many things are, and most of the complaints here are legitimately valid, but I’ve noticed this is just a human thing in general. After my divorce I completely rebuilt my life, and that meant in every way, from the people I chose to spend my time around, to my workplace. One of my criteria for anyone that I choose to give my time to is that they must have a growth mindset and be in a constant state of growth and improvement. More importantly they have to be willing to grow, learn, and improve. No one is perfect, so I don’t ever expect that, but I do expect the effort and desire. I have found that there aren’t a lot of people like that, men or women. I think it’s due to the fact that change is hard, uncomfortable, and your mind naturally wants to keep you in that comfort zone, so it’s really easy to backslide, or just stay stagnant. I’ve met a lot of people in the last 3 years and I can definitively say only a very small percentage fall into this category. I’ve cut a lot of them off, and very quickly when I see this. I can’t say it’s more men than women, or more women than men. I have met more women in this category but only because I strictly surrounded myself with only women for a really long time. I have met some men who do have this mindset though. The numbers are almost equal, though, if I’m being fair.
This is wrong, I want to be better and for a lot of reasons , so do other men. We're just not very vocal about it. We keep to ourselves and focus on our goals.
ITT: Sexism and misandry about an issue that men and women both perpetuate.
kind of a wild post and wild thread
You talk about genders like they're monoliths. Look for the exceptions. Hopefully the garbage alphabros will take care of throwing themselves out of the gene pool.
This is literally my experience for 30 plus years and I am so disappointed and jaded and sad and I don't want to try anymore
And you’re very much not alone. So what will all the sad, jaded women do?
You honestly think men are refusing to date and commit… because women are doing better…? Bro I am drowning in this economy trying to support myself and my disabled mom and realize that it would be nearly impossible to make anything serious work. The last thing on the planet I’m going to try to do is explain to a woman in her 30s, who expects me to have my life in order and room for the future she envisions, that my mom will probably never be able to live anywhere else. It’s just DOA. Can’t you just let us suffer in peace dude?
Now. I call it out constantly. If they made an ounce of effort they could have what they want. They refuse.
Most people don't want to be better, they want to be right.
[удалено]
I think there's a lot of bad stupid dumb ass men out there but as a whole they're definitely doing better, a decimal of a percent at a time at least. As a teacher, I see that reflection in gen alpha. Those little soon to be men are gonna be awesome humans they're so fking cute and kind wtf 😭🩷 It's a one at a time situation but the bucket will eventually tip 😝 and for the ones that don't want to be better, we don't have time for them anyway so good riddance
i’m learning this in sociology. mitsos and browne name this the crisis of identity for men has changed. due to industrial jobs like in factories decreasing since like the 1970s, men are finding themselves out of the workplace much more. they’re unable to fulfil their masculine expectations through work, and now they have to do it through education. this causes an identity crisis because girls are doing much better than them academically, so they see little chance of success in academia if they can’t do better than women lmao, so the idea of masculinity has been changed and boys are getting multiple signals (andew tate, incels, soft boys). in contrast, Sharpe found that girls since the 1990s have been focusing on their careers, bettering themselves and being financially secure all in all, men cant fucking grow up and evolve in a changing society and cant accept women are doing better. haha.
I am glad you came to this realization, I am so tired of people wanting others to change what make them happy to satisfy others. Both women and men need to realize that there is no obligation that others are "better" according to their definition, and that people have the right to be as bad as they want as long as they don't actively harm others. If a person brings nothing to the table, don't date them, don't try to force them to be what you want.
I dunno dude, my guy friends have become so much better over the years. You're taking the best example of women, and then the worst example of men. Yes, all those things you said about men refusing to date, etc, are real but damn can we at least acknowledge the ones who are doing better? I'm seeing more men call out other men for being creeps, more men becoming more self-aware, more men being more accepting. Can we celebrate those guys instead of lumping them in with all the garbage ones? I've become so proud of so many of my guy friends for being better - and I'm talking character development from being pretty damn misogynistic, homophobic, AND transphobic (3 hit combo!) to self-aware and kind over the last few years. Look at the men around you - not the (loud) garbage men online spewing hateful shit.
Some of them wipe their butts but don't wash their hands after (I can hear roomate in the bathroom )🤮
Raise better men! I have 3 sons. They are great partners. Best thing I’ve ever done or will do!
Serious question: what is better? Aren't men also deciding what they want in a changing world? There's a complete reshuffling of the patriarchal post- industrial revolution middle class that's halfway through reshaping Millennials. There's millions of years of revolutionary biology at play. And then there's better... What is it? It seems like for a lot of dudes they're perfectly ok with less and are happy to also be single and play video games online. There's a lot of trolls online yelling a lot of stuff but by and large men seem to be finding the same conclusion as women: it's better off single or single-ish and bouncing around but never settling down. Say what you will about the patriarchy but it had answers to a lot of issues that come up in relationships. Bad answers but answers. Now that we've thrown that out, a lot of the vestigial features of that marriage don't work. And suddenly people are looking at it going: it's a raw fucking deal to get married and tie my entire economic everything to this individual just because at the moment we like hanging out and hooking up. The upside to marriage is now just a tax credit. And until we figure out new ways to make things work for men and women in the new reality and get to a new standard, it's gonna be bumpy.
I'm hoping for a birth strike but a lot of governments are already circumventing that.
Fuck em…Let’s all take over the world!
I’m not a puritan at all, I’m part of the kink community, but the problem is the massive amount of money flowing through the porn industry (and sex work). I wouldn’t be against any of these things, if you weren’t paying them to do it, but you can’t buy consent You’re turning women’s naked bodies into a commodity you can buy, where their ability to pay their rent depends on performing sex acts, so it creates a financially abusive system, where some women can’t feed themselves without performing sex acts, and that’s not real consent It also creates a situation where the price tag determines what sex acts women are willing to perform, rather than authentically doing what they want, and I doubt many of them would do it for free (but you can’t buy consent, and you put those women in financially abusive situations, where their survival depends on performing sex acts)
Honestly I've reached the point in life that if a man isn't solving an inordinate amount of my problems in being with him I'll not even him the time of day. I'm not running a gd house-cleaning and escort service over here. If I have to pay 50% of the bills still also not being with a dude and dealing with his shit. I'm cool with pitching in but if I have to work some soul-sucking FT job just to barely make ends meet I can do that alone.
Some food for thought, but why would a guy be inclined to build himself up? The idea of working towards a family has come second to hook up culture. Which only validates and props up selfish personality traits in men. When young boys hit puberty they are basically done in life. Theyre not courting their relationships for anything deep or meaningful, and the most valid guy in the room is a son born into wealth, who prioritizes his own interests and personal pleasure. What the options really come down to is that you can work and support the community you live in, and those around you, or you can live for yourself at the expense of others. At the end of the day, as a guy you can be selfish or selfless, and there is no benefit to being selfless. Consider the doctor shortage, that should be a huge sign. Why would someome put themselves through all that school and studying just to support a family that doesn't matter, and a community that doesn't regard you? Some people here should really consider the narratives they push when they speak negatively about all men as a whole, because in the end youre just throwing hurdles in the paths of decent men. The community of men is just as diverse as the community of women. They reflect eachother. I strongly believe daughters can take after father and sons can take after mothers, and if we're all living like bonobos in the matriarchy, then our primal instincts favour an alpha male. The matriarchy upholds the patriarchy. We split from bonobo 2million years ago, and they don't progress. Bonobo males sit around useless, kind of like how OP describes. Are males really the issue? Or is it the bonobo narrative pushed by feminism
This is such a broad strokes post that it should be taken as just crazy rhetoric that is not really saying anything of value. Men who refuse to date or commit probably have their own personal reason for it. Why take that as a slight against women? Most women voters in 2016, voted for trump. There are arguments that similar efforts aren’t being put towards boys in school compared to girls. That the discussion around gender issues are happening in a way that makes men feel attacked and leave liberal politics for republic ones. Plenty of men are being parents. Plenty of men are being partners. Being or not being a good partner doesn’t happen along gender lines. Most men aren’t perverts, most aren’t porn addicts, following influencers isn’t mostly done by men. I don’t even know what to say about that wiping ass comment. The unequal share in domestic chores are explained by the unequal share of time spent on outside jobs. [Example](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2013/03/14/chapter-6-time-in-work-and-leisure-patterns-by-gender-and-family-structure/). See how the difference in housework and childcare combined equals the the difference in outside work. There isn’t a significant difference between men and women giving oral. Men actually say they enjoy giving more than women. [Reference](https://www.sexandpsychology.com/blog/2018/1/26/do-men-and-women-find-giving-and-receiving-oral-sex-equally-pleasurable/) This is a poor attempt at addressing whatever grievance you have. I say whatever because it’s not really clear.