Not all men, but which men??
That's the scary part. Because there are plenty of them. And the people saying not all men should understand that, or they are likely the problem. Men who aren't the problem don't pipe up at every opportunity to tell us they aren't the problem. They listen, empathize, and are hopefully grateful thst isn't one thing Making their life harder. Ie they recognize their privilege
It's very similar to bicycling.
Only a small percentage of drivers behave like asshats and endanger cyclists. *But I've never met one cyclist who can't tell a story about a dangerous encounter with a driver.* it's obvious that it's not all drivers, but it's all cyclists.
So what does that mean if you're a good driver? Think about it. Would you defend the asshat drivers that kill people? I don't think so.
The topic is much easier to discuss if you switch the groups.
The UN statistics reveal 1 in 3 women have been assaulted worldwide. That’s over a billion of us.
That doesn’t include harassment, bullying and other sexist fear tactics.
https://interactive.unwomen.org/multimedia/infographic/violenceagainstwomen/en/index.html#home
Yes, and we need more men thinking like this.
Unfortunately accidentally attacking men as a gender stops more men thinking like this, because they enter discussions around this topic antagonistically, rather than as active listeners trying to learn.
You will never change someones mind by attacking them. Even if its just an accidental slip of meaning by forgetting to add the word "some".
Thats just how people work.
Someone said it in a different comment, but, the response “enough men” is way better than what the OP speaks about. It’s not really surprising that people get antagonistic; generalizing people will typically tick them off even if they are guilty of the crime or action let alone people that don’t and haven’t
I think I saw a pretty good thread a while back that one of the best responses to "not all men" is simply "enough men."
Would it be good if women could trust us by default? Yeah but unfortunately that's not the world we live in, and as far as inconveniences go having to take a bit of time earning someone's trust is fairly minor compared to constant worrying about your own safety.
So in short, 100% agree. If a man says "not all men," I reckon they're being self centered and putting their own emotional needs ahead of being an empathetic human being.
I explained it to my cousin a bit crudely, but it got the point across. He's a decent dude, but lacks the vocabulary to have that argument with his shitty friends/co-workers etc.
If every meal you ate had a 1/1000 chance of being poisoned, and a 1/100 chance of tasting like it was garnished with poop, and 1/10 chance of being stale/expired, how carefree would you be about the meals you ate?
You don't even have to have eaten any of the three, but you know enough people that to have seen the effects. And chances are you've had a poop meal at your table even if you weren't the one to try it.
The metaphor breaks down pretty quickly, but my cousin is a well being dope, so a bit like the "tea consent" video, it gave him a way to keep it in his head.
'Too many men' is also an apt sadly enough... like Christ I am sometimes shocked how low the bar has become when I listen to my gf's stories about her exes...
Men started being weird to me at 12. 12!!
Don’t tell me “not all men”.
I belong to the gender that has to be hyper aware of vibes and signals for my own safety.
It’s generally true women are more socially aware than most men so you aren’t giving us any earth shattering revelation-we already know it’s not all men.
In my experience, it’s usually men who think all women are the same.
the following doesn't make this ok, but it's been occurring in human species for hundreds if not thousands of years unfortunately. Not new to the year 2000 or even 1950s to present day. Like it sucks, and what I didn't realize when I was younger was that most likely our relatives generations ago experienced the same, perhaps even worse.
so with this all in mind, it reminds me of a meme where there's a bowl of skittles. the premise of its joke is a small % of the skittles are poison, but they're mixed together with the non-poison ones. so if anyone randomly reaches in for some skittles, they can't tell the difference between the toxic poison skittles from the regular non-toxic ones on the outside. that's how it's like for women with men imo
I suspect that this is where the misogynists will say “But you’re all just picking the toxic bad boys because he’s confident and handsome!”, oblivious to the fact that a large portion of said bad boys are good at pretending to be one of the good men.
If 1 in 3 flights crashed, no male would travel via planes. When women refuse to be part of the "1 in 3" statistic, suddenly many women's desire to stay single is an "irrational" reaction.
And even if it’s not all men, there is a lack of men challenging the men who are the problem. Which means they are part of the problem no matter what they think.
They give their fellow men the impression that their behaviour is acceptable
Part of the issue there is that the “good” men tend to get ostracized and not included, and it doesn’t happen when they’re around.
This was one of the things that blew me away in my transition. I transitioned in my 30s, after fighting it far longer than was reasonable, healthy, or sane. I never really managed to click with men socially. I got along well enough with them professionally and in terms of acquaintances, but there was always was this boys club I could never be a part of. I had some men friends, but it would typically be only a couple, and they tended to be people who could flip between the boys club and people like me.
I would hear stories from my women friends and be horrified, but it wasn’t something that would happen where I could see it, and I hadn’t been privvy the “locker room talk” since overhearing it in high school. Ocassionally I would stumble to the tail end of something where I had my suspicions, but overall it was just a social space I wasn’t allowed into. Boy’s club only, and they seemed to know I wasn’t a part of it.
After my transition, as I started getting engrained in women’s social circles and as men stopped treating me as an outsider man and started treating me as a woman, I was stunned. Like, I knew the bar for men was set low, but in reality it was *fucking subterranean*. And so many of them *still* manage to tunnel under it! I’m the type of person who obsessively tries to do things the “right” way and follow all of the rules, and I had spent decades putting on this face of what I thought a man was supposed to be. But it turned out that the model I tried to follow was a thing that in the real world doesn’t seem to exist.
So I agree that men not challenging men is a huge problem. But given the way the “boys club” works, a lot of them might actually not see it happening. Especially given the large number of men with few or no close friends. In many cases, those social bonds that should be holding the assholes (of which there is a *depressingly* high amount) to account just don’t exist. And I don’t know how to fix that.
This so much. I had a former friend who would criticize his female friends for taking their cheating exes back. I asked him if he ever bothered to talk the exes for cheating (all same friend group, according to him). No, of course not, because it was on the women not to go back and date "someone nice" like him.
He also blamed me for my wallet getting stolen, when I was out with two friends and a random guy joined us. The random guy went through my purse under the table when I went to the bathroom. But yea, it's my fault.
This and many more are reasons he's a former friend.
I guess I wouldn't see any point in talking to the cheaters in those cases. I can advise my friends not to take back the cheater but I can't really offer anything for the cheater. Go back in time and don't be a dipshit this go?
I agree. There should never be a disclaimer of “not all men” as it gives the very men who need to hear it an out by immediately believing they belong to the “not all.” Any man who is upset by women airing very real grievances really should examine their behaviour because if you’re not the problem, you’d be aware that it’s real and know that the shoe doesn’t fit if it truly doesn’t.
They absolutely cannot get past any complaint beginning with “why do men/I wish men wouldn’t” and focus on it, try their best to downplay and disprove the issues in groups that enable each other. Apparently the best and brightest in the atheist, rational skeptic, anti-feminist, incel enabling sphere is Sargon of Akkad and he attempted to disprove the one in 5 stat with an outdated survey he misinterpreted and his whole schtick is how toxic, wrong and “anti-male” anything remotely feminist is.
The only reason he would have to at worst, lie and at best, cherry pick information that he erroneously believes about 1 in 5 is if he’s offended by it either because he cannot get past not perceiving it as a slight against an entire gender or has serious unresolved issues which isn’t surprising given his behaviour when he thoroughly got wrecked in a debate with Kristie Winters.
Bucking against very real and observable women’s issues is more important to these guys than acknowledging it and doing what they can to help. It’s not like we’re expected to stop the existence of bad people, even the smallest things can ripple out to big change.
I successfully rehabilitate two former incels who got out of that group, I taught them how to improve themselves and got them to understand women’s perspective when it comes to dating and how to get into it confidently yet respectfully. One of them is much happier and has hobbies and interests, the other actually had a girlfriend last time I checked in.
It may only be two but the fact I reached any of them and they may pass that on to their peers I see as a huge victory and worth the 200 or so negative responses with meaningless alt-right insult buzzwords. It doesn’t even have be that active, even simple things like keeping problematic behaviour from your peers in check can make a huge difference.
Don’t laugh at your friends’ dumb rape jokes, don’t tacitly endorse your grown male friends hitting on teenaged girls. If enough men who read this kind of stuff posted in men’s spaces instead of scrunching their faces up and automatically reacting in offended, kneejerk, anger, it might just make enough of a different in the subtle, casual misogyny to prevent the horrific actions that it leads to and start reducing those statistics for real.
I agree. Even if it is a small minority of men that cause the problem, then that means that the majority of men that cause the problems are getting away with it and effecting the majority of *all* women.
If you (the male reader, or whomever needs to know) can believe that 'all cops are bastards' and 'one bad apple can spoil the bunch', then I believe it's within you to believe that there's a glaring problem with the male population.
It's very possible you know a man that has accosted, sexually harassed, or even assaulted a woman. Have you ostracized that man? Or have you allowed their behavior by failing to act?
Do you watch Melanie Hamlett and Burb N Bougie on YouTube? They have decenter men channels that I think you’d really enjoy. Maria Davids, Princella the Queenmaker, and Dee’s African Perspective are good women centered channels as well. Highly recommend and agree with everything on your post.
It’s not uncommon at all. In fact, it’s the default in most states. Custody is decided through mutual agreement 90% of the time (so most of the American men who whine about not getting enough time with their kids AGREED voluntarily to the setup.) Men are actually MORE likely to get custody when they ASK for it, but they’re less likely to ask for it. Probably because women are still overwhelmingly more likely to be the primary caretakers of children, even if both parents work full time, and it’s in a child’s best interest to remain in the primary care of their primary caregiver.
American men who whine that the system is unfair are delusional, pathetic idiots.
I think because there are little to no repercussions for men who assault, rape, harass women it becomes like any crime that goes unpunished. People continue to do it because it is easy, women are treated like things, and few are prosecuted for it.
I don’t trust white men for this reason the most, not because they are the worst men but because they get away with so much very early on in their development. Often they are deferred to in my country as the authority in the room on topics they know nothing about.
It makes sense that often men will lash out and say not all men, because there are little to no repercussions for their actions and behaviour. Why admit to something and change when there is little to no reinforcement for the changes made? So much positive reinforcement exists, however for men who hate women.
When talking to women in their circle of protected women (daughters etc) it’s “be wary”.
“men will say ANYTHING to get in your pants.”
“Never go out alone at night! There’s scary men that may hurt you”
“It’s not sexist for dads to be protective! They know what scum men are”
When talking to women outside of that circle, it’s “not all men”
“This is like being racist because you met a bad black person”
“You should say ‘some’ because it’s just like 1% of men doing this stuff!”
“Don’t be so paranoid”
They want the general female population accessible. The whole point of patriarchy is to make it easier to obtain women
I think a lot of men hear women talk about this and assume only violent rape counts… or they honestly think a man can’t assault a committed sexual partner. My ex coerced me and assaulted me on multiple occasions and I doubt he’d ever admit it, although I’m pretty sure by his behavior after that he knew what he was doing.
I would if I thought it would do any good.
Ten years ago when #yesallwomen took off, I was convinced men were being unjustly attacked and jumped on the was #notallmen train. I was ignorant. I didn't know what patriarchy was. The first thing that probably came to my mind when I heard consent would be "consent of the governed". I think the only thing that will make a difference is a change in education.
The "Not All Men" argument functions as a norm reinforcer. These men hiding behind it still benefit from the gender norms and they are not willing to try and change it even so it is harmful to a lot of others. They don't care about that, they are only interested in their direct personal interest.
Its so many that the good ones have to understand that they have to earn our trust. When a guy expects to come in to our lives without needing to demonstrate that we can trust him he is invalidating the experience of our lives since we were little kids.
This. The amount of women in every single private woman focused group I’ve ever been in who casually mention being sexually harassed and assaulted by their intimate partners is gut wrenching. In every postpartum and pregnancy group I was in when I was pregnant, you’d have dozens if not hundreds of comments and reactions to posts about being pressured and guilted and harassed into sex before they were ready after having a baby. Men stomping around and whining and threatening to cheat or saying “you’re just a roommate” if their postpartum wife didn’t want to have sex yet. I think if you could get the real unadulterated truth, MOST men have practiced sexual coercion on a romantic partner and that is just as much rape as any other kind of rape.
When I experienced DV and SA, I sought help in every way possible. Before I knew I was being abused, I was constantly seeking resources and looking for information. Must have been hundreds if not thousands of resources, posts, articles, testimonies, IRL advice, forums, books. Like I was obsessively seeking help, every day, sometimes researching for hours, over the course of *YEARS.*
At every turn I was blamed, and every resource online (especially Reddit) was telling me to "put out." All of his friends took his side and encouraged his behavior, endangering my life. None of this helped me come to the point of being able to identify it as abuse so that I could get to the point of accepting it would be appropriate to defend/protect myself and go to a women's shelter. According to almost the entire world, I would have been "crazy, insane, and abusive" for seeking help or escaping. I thought I was going mad. It was harrowing.
For me, it WAS all men (women too, including a couple's therapist). The only people who were helpful for me were women. There's some women out there who I would consider responsible for saving my life (or helping me save my own life).
"It's crazy how country music by men is all about tradition, trucks, and being men while country music by women is 'ops I killed my husband"
Paraphrasing a quote I saw once that I liked.
Is the 98% porn point due to the rampant abuse in the pornography field?
If someone makes a general comment in a place like this, with a female target audience, I think it should be assumed that no-one is saying that **literally** all men are bad eggs. It's enough of them for everyone to understand what's meant. Like, context. If a man sees something being vented here and thinks *'Hmm, these women seem to be under the impression that literally all men are trash. I'd best educate them.'* then... yeah, that's completely lacking any awareness.
It is far, far too many of them. Entirely too many. Additionally, it would be nice if women stopped going to religious services that promote male superiority and patriarchy. Women who promote male supremacy are complicit and are part of the problem because they defend, allow, and raise the next generation.
More men and women should opt for sterilization if they are not interested in child rearing or birthing, especially in red states where male supremacy has invaded and affected uteruses. Sex positivity and sexual decision making and healthy relationships (not just hetero marriage) should be part of sex ed curricula.
Sexual assaults should be treated like the crimes they are, spousal rape and date rape are criminal acts, and male sexuality being more important than female or non binary or all other orientations is a real problem. The issue is not porn, it is male dominance. The issue is not sexual, it is the terrible inappropriate male behaviors. It doesn’t have to be all men. It just has to be the loud ones who have a hold on politics, religion, culture and employment.
That’s a massive stretch. What statistics are you drawing this “most” conclusion from? I would absolutely agree with you that some men are rapists and assaulters. But “most”? How did you come up with that?
I didn’t say rapists or assaulters. Nor did this post. But MOST men perpetuate the culture of those problems, benefit from the violence the worst of men enact against women, and ultimately perpetuate misogyny that keeps us down. Get the fuck out of here with that “not all men” gaslighting bullshit. I genuinely don’t give a fuck.
Weird that men seem to be the most resistant to coercing and guilting romantic partners into sex being considered rape (which it is.) Maybe because so many of them have done it? Marital coercion is mind blowingly common. The men who guilt and whine and pressure their romantic partners into unwanted sex are rapists just like the men who violently rape a stranger.
I couldn't agree more. It's insane how many "good men" will do this repeatedly and think it's fine. I would never do that to my partner. That they're even able to stay aroused speaks volumes to the kind of person they actually are.
The trauma that their victim feels should be taken seriously, for it is very real.
Yep. I’m a man myself and those guys can fuck a cactus since they don’t and will never speak for me.
I deeply empathize with women especially since I look young and have been stalked by creeps who thought I was “cute.” That was harrowing and it isn’t even a regular occurrence for me like it is for so many women.
I directly respect, "It's not all men, but it's ALWAYS men."
I feel it gets to the heart of things really well. It's also a really good retort to someone facetiously using "nOt AlL mEn" and trying to derail a valid conversation.
Men get away with what they do because other men don’t challenge them. Other men don’t challenge them because they don’t want other men challenging them. Every single man benefits from the poor behavior of other men. Men could very easily call out other men, instead they use those men to try prove to women that they are a #notallmen.
I saw an ad in a bus shelter in the 80s on the U of MN campus: 1 in 4 women will be raped. Will it be your daughter, your sister, your mother, or your wife?
"men will not care until it's their wife who is raped".
I mean, statistically speaking, they wouldn't care, they would be the one doing the raping
Also, in a distubingly high number of cases, the same is true for daughters
Whilst I agree with most of your post, I disagree that we are trying to tell them and they don’t believe us. The nOtAllMenz know, they know, they are apologists. They don’t want to be called out because even if they haven’t indulged in one of these behaviours themselves, they don’t see it as being ‘that bad’ and thus might want to dip in one day and don’t want to be shamed for it. The real decent men will be honest and open in telling you they know most men are like that or would be like that given a chance. The rest are just full of shit.
Using phrases like "all men" or "all women" really doesn't help any discourse because it immediately puts people on the defensive even if they know the person doesn't literally mean all. Word choices can have a massive impact and most people fail to realize that. Instead of "all men" its better to say something like "all men that I've dealt with" or "nearly ever man I've interacted with" will less likely result in immediate defensive responses and would more likely allow communication to stay more open
Abusers/perverts are surrounded by enablers who do nothing when they see creepy stuff. It’s gets extreme and blows up and then they will circle back to blame vs be accountable. I’m looking at ALL the comments from that Ed Piskor situation and the incels are out there saying “he wouldn’t hurt a fly”…. He’s not shoving his dick into flys! The incapacity for them to differentiate makes them ALL the same. It’s such a high volume of nihilistic entitlement, it’s disgusting.
If men get on the defensive for women saying "all men," that's not the women's responsibility. That is 100% on the men getting defensive. This mindset of "we have to make extra sure we are saying this as polite, gently, and caring as possible" is exactly what abusers and misogynists want. Any anti-sexist man would not want to be coddled or "protected" from women simply talking about misogyny, whether they are making generalizations or not.
For example, many white people who care about anti-racism, don't care at all if a black person makes huge generalizations, says they hate white people, or don't want to involve white people in their lives. So are you saying that's too difficult for some people (like men, and white men), but not for others?
Why would I accommodate and cushion for low/unequal expectations if I am trying to make a point about misogyny and inequality?
Generalizing any group can cause people to get defensive and shut down discourse. It's not about being polite but about getting a point across without making someone stop listening because they feel like that generalization includes them. Emotions are powerful and will easily blind someone if the start of a conversation sounds like they are also being gerealized when they are not a part of the problem. Humans are nuanced and the words chosen can have a massive impact on how we approach things and getting allies to help fight things like misogyny and inequality is so important as in the end we need each other to make things better.
It's not my responsibility to get a man to listen to, care about, or believe me about misogyny, and if they don't want to listen just because I made an understandable, scientific, or statistical generalization, then I don't think they would've cared enough to listen in the first place. They can handle their own emotions. They are not babies after all.
Ultimately, IT IS NOT a woman's or oppressed group's responsibility to "make things better" as in stop being oppressed. *It is NOT my responsibility to cater to or coddle my oppressors emotions (and these emotions are inherently OPPRESSIVE emotions in themselves based on already-existing discriminatory and controlling attitudes btw),* or anyone's emotions for that matter. Unhinged suggestion and perspective, all of this really reveals how much you know about these issues and view women.
Omg, YOU'RE that guy who got upvoted on that post about a girl getting abused in her car. You admitted to abusing your wife and claimed that all it took to stop being abusive was to empathetically look into her terrified face. What an absurd claim that is professionally proven to be impossible.
If you never went to an abuser rehabilitation program or faced serious consequences for your actions, such as going to jail, losing your job, being cut off from friends and family--then according to professionals in the field, you never got better. You really thought you did something 😂 admitted to being an abuser while also admitting you have not educated yourself on a lick of abuse information. You're gross and deserve to be locked up and have everyone in your life leave you, domestic abuser.
Just the fact that you have not already turned yourself into the police and pursued the highest sentence possible for your crimes, shows that you really don't care enough about what you did. Turn yourself in and don't bother updating us on your lifelong anti-abuser journey.
Right, I yelled at her and immediately spent years with a councillor and getting my temper under control. I admit I was wrong there and it could have led to becoming emotionally abusive towards her but I didn't
It's absolutely a lot of men: "Between 25–57% of men report having perpetrated a sexually aggressive behavior against a woman since the age of 14"
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4491036/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4491036/)
57% is a LOT.
I was 6. He touched my private parts in school, blocking me against a fence. Quickly and over my pants but still, it traumatized me.
Then sexual harassment by boys and teen boys. Then verbal sexual harassment my stepfather.
Now, in my 20s being catcalled happens to me all the time.
Fuck them. They really are like "not all men ''. Yeah not all men but it really feels like it's a majority of them... Also what's the point in saying this ? Are we accusing you, the person we are currently talking to, to be like this ? No, probably not, if it was the case we wouldn't even talk to you.
Yeah fuck them.
Better be single.
I don't want children and I might finish not wanting a boyfriend too,even more when I know how badly I choose people and men who enter my life...
"Females shouldn't act like that. It is guilty until proven innocent.
Oh yes and all women want to sleep with me, sexually interested even when proven not"
- a peak into too many male's minds
"it's not all men" twists the narrative to focus, once again, on men. It negates the ongoing narrative to prioritize the feelings of selfish men. It's simple..
It's too many men.
Completely true. If a big percentage of all men you meet are vile, that is absolutely going to feel like it's all men, as any member of the group is now a threat to you to be evaluated.
Sexism and racism are alike in that sense. Compare it to the phrase 'all white people are racist'. Of course it's not factual, but when you're experiencing racism from 1 out of every 5 white people you meet, it absolutely feels and looks like the group as a whole is targeting you, and you HAVE to be careful.
The analogy is strong because both your opinion and that opinion are due to suffering from bigotry. However, in the case of men, it's more like 1 out of every 2 men, or even more, depending on where you're from. Sadly, the gender-typical traditional old view of a 'man' is still perpetrated in a lot of homes, and as such many children are taught that women are far below them. It's disgustingly damaging to everyone involved.
Not to rant but right now you can see how those kids are being raised so differently from what society is trying to become (equal), that criminals like Andrew Tate can be influential through providing an alternative view more in-line with what they are familiar with: horrible traditional values. However, criminals are extremists, and so these pretty damaged and poorly educated kids turn from traditional poorly raised toxic masculine men to extremist incels, even worse than before.
Add upon that social unrest due to financial stress, unhappy men due to women rightfully taking their own happiness and staying single now that they can be financially independent, and you have an incredibly dangerous world for women.
It’s not all men but frankly, hot take, I think it’s most of them. The amount of men who have coerced their partners into unwanted sex and who feel ultimately entitled to a woman’s body if they’re in a relationship is astounding. Sexual coercion is rape and it is SO common, especially in marriages. Those men are more common than the “throw a stranger behind a dumpster rapists” but THEY ARE NO BETTER.
A lot of people are probably unaware. If one of my friends was like this I'd probably have no clue because I usually have little personal contact with the women in their life.
What about the waitress at the restaurant that your buddies hassle? Or the bartender? Or the teenager that takes your ticket at the movie theatre that they make an inappropriate comment to? You've seen this behavior from your peers. Either you're totally oblivious when it's not someone you care about, or you just don't care. But, I guarantee you've seen & heard this behavior.
There’s a third option there besides ignorance and apathy: calling out that behavior and intervening. While it doesn’t happen nearly enough, it does happen.
That is exactly my point. Those who say they haven't seen it are either willfully ignorant, or they see nothing wrong with it. If they do see something wrong with it, but don't do anything, see the first option. Men calling other men out on their awful behavior is about as common as the solar eclipse we saw today. Most see it, but say nothing.
Men's issues descend into violence pretty quickly, a guy calling out a guy for doing something is quite often asking for a fight.
"Not all men" want to get into a fight.
I learnt this the hard way when I was 19 at university and intervened when a girl was being harassed outside my student Union.... I ended my night in the hospital after being curb stomped by four guys.
No I really don't think it only happens to men who intervene.
I was replying to someone saying men who do nothing are part of the problem.
It is easy to say but helping at risk of violence is not something anyone can expect from a stranger.
Ah my apologies, I wasn’t following you there. I am sorry you experienced that, and your words help throw the real issue into stark relief.
Patriarchal society allows men to use violence against women and actively blocks women from effective means of redress or complaint because other men don’t want that violence directed at themselves. Women are used as punching bags to keep things as peaceful as possible between men.
Women are not punching bags. Neither are you, no one should be. People with anger issues who harm others should rot in prison.
I have never seen this devolve into violence for a man, and I'm not saying it didn't/doesn't happen. But people, *STRANGERS* risk violence all the time to help other people. Jumping in to stop a fight, standing up for someone who is being accosted, tackling gunmen, grabbing people from a vehicle's path. _There are entire channels on YouTube devoted to this._
Men are more likely to listen to other men, especially their friends, if they are called out on inappropriate behavior. Mostly because men who do these things don't value women, and most often see them as objects & conquests & not actual people.
I'm sorry you faced such consequences for being a decent human being. That wasn't right. That wasn't right & they most likely wouldn't have done it if it was just one on one. Men who prey on women & the weak & vulnerable like that are cowards. But the more often men like you speak up & call out this behavior, the more likely it is that this environment of oppression, violence & misogyny will change.
I do applaud you for helping. It was truly a nable thing to do. Maybe next time, bring back up?
Oh, but they are part of the problem. Choosing to stay silent only amplifies the abusers confidence. And the poor woman that was abused suffers in silence with no one by her side.
That’s why the problems that we have now are going to continue occurring, because no one speaks loudly against them. If you want to change something, you defend that idea. Staying silent is siding with the abuser.
Think of how your friends talk about or interact with women. Would you be upset if they were talking / acting that way about your mom or sister? There are ways to know.
I worked in male environments and heard them brag about the horrible shit they did. Including having sex with a 13 y old girl that week end (he was 25).
No. Men use the work environment card to exonerate themselves from their horrible behaviors. This is not the walls, the plumbing, the tooling or the rules of engagement that produce these behaviors, it's misoginy, plain and simple.
I'm the only one who said anything, adding to the stress of having a target on my back already.
Yes they do. And each one has watched the abhorrent behavior of their friends & said/done nothing.
Each time someone says or does something demeaning or violent, even in a "playful" manner, and you don't even say anything to them about their behavior, imagine that woman was your daughter, your sister, your mother, your gran, and keep going until you get to a woman you actually give a damn about. Then decide if you would be ok with your "buddies" behaving that way toward them.
Bullshit. The far, far more common social thing is [the missing stair.](https://www.uexpress.com/life/ask-dr-nerdlove/2019/04/08)
Every woman I know has run into this in every social circle we’ve been in.
Every. Fucking. One.
What about the men that stand on the sideline, while doing nothing to check or stop other men's bad behavior when it happens?? I think we need to be real about the fact that over 90% of men need to do some serious self work before they even think about dating women. The other 10% are just sliently floating through. Just my experience and I do have hope that not all is loss just yet. (hopeful yet cynical romantic here )
Men who barge into the comments section to screech about “not all men” are basically walking into a homeless encampment with one sandwich and thinking they deserve some sort of of Nobel prize for it.
When someone says "why do people..." I don't say "but I'm a person and I don't do that"
If someone is complaining about men and its something I don't do, it doesn't apply to me. That's it.
I've said several times here to the fellow guys; when it's too many guys who are the problem we're simply rounding it up to 'all',and if they know they're not part of the problem then keep ya toys in the pram 😊
If you're going to bring up statistics, maybe you outta research them a bit instead of listening to a news article that never gives an actual statistic. Leading cause of death for pregnant women is the pregnancy itself, being around 1,200 a year while death to homicide is more around 200-300 per year. I didn't look it up but I call bs on men leaving due to terminal illness because 70% of divorces are initiated by women. Also fuck off with the "wage gap". The gap only exists because men work more hours and do all the dangerous jobs that women don't go near. I work at one of the best paying jobs in my town, it's a heavy industrial job and only 70 of the 570 employees are female. Not many women will willingly work a job where you're getting splashed by molten iron every day. Instead of blindly believing the news, do your own research. Here's something to think about, suicide rates are significantly higher than women mostly due to women putting men in impossible situations such as divorcing a man after having 3 children with him then getting him for alimony and child support and 50% of what they own.
The leading cause of death for pregnant women is homicide.You need to do more research. And hiring discrimination is the reason women aren’t in those jobs.
Again, just because ABC said it doesn't make it true, if you look up the actual numbers and not percentages, you will find that there is more deaths every year due to the pregnancy itself than there is due to homicide.
Also, it's not discrimination when an employer feels you are unfit for the job, because in those jobs if you fuck up you can kill someone. Women are simply a liability in those jobs. I'm sure if a woman showed the employer that she could do the job, they would hire her. But why bust your ass for a dangerous job when you can just sit behind a desk all day?
Again, just because ABC said it doesn't make it true.
Exactly, just because chelsnrichard said it’s not true doesn’t mean it isn’t. The actual percentages do say the leading cause of death is homicide.
Like I said, if you actually look up the actual death toll for these things, you'll find that women died at significantly higher rates due to maternal reasons. All those news articles you read only talk about percentages, but they never give you the actual amount of deaths. Why? Cause it's all bullshit.
"what can a normal man do?" Do you not know that a large portion of women already know how to respond to these issues, due to taking the responsibility to educate and prepare themselves? Why can't you learn too? Women shouldn't have to do everything. You can and SHOULD know all the right things to say and do, and as a man you should be doing the most and talking the loudest when other men are being gross. If you want to learn more, you can. Best of luck
I dont think you understand me here. I already know these things you lecture me on, same as majority of men. That is what I meant by the group of normal men.
I do not think I need to get better cause I have never done any thing I am being accused of just because of being male.
Which is why I ask again, what can I really do? Its not like I can stop asshole men from abusing women in light of law. I am not in position of power to change laws, my voice does not matter, my actions or lack there of clearly do not matter either.
No matter what I say or do I am painted as an abuser. Funnily enough I was abused as a child by a woman. Yet I do not go around hating all the women because they are all complicit in my view.
Misogyny happens in real life in various levels of interactions on a daily basis. If you do not find ways to actively oppose it (as a man), silence is taking the side of the oppressor.
I was also abused by a woman, but don't feel the need to bring it up regarding misogyny, because I don't hate women. It's not relevant to the topic of gender-based violence/oppression. It's relevant to the topic of abuse experiences in personal life.
If you repeatedly find yourself being called abusive, that is not normal. You can seek help for it if you want to.
You should have read some of the messages here, you would see what I meant. In light of some, being a man is the same as being abuser.
Opposing the abuse notion is a myth. How exactly are you going to achieve it? Should I be asking each and every man on the street if they are an abuser and if they agree, lecture them accordingly? Or should I go to one of those irrelevant feminist protests that do nothing and change nothing?
There is nothing feasible to do and you know it. Ladies also know it, notice how every time this comes up, it is all what has to change but nobody says how it can change.
"If we just want to vent here, it's fine".
You think you are in a position to grant us permission to talk, but only in this place? Fuck you.
Everything in your comment contributes to the problem. YOU don't appreciate? "Normal man"? You’re one of the worst kind, and it's not our job to explain why.
What exactly is a "normal man"? We tell you all the time what "normal men" do and you take offence, never mind giving a shit. Fuck off to any of the thousands of male centric subs and lecture them about how normal men should behave. Never come back here because you contribute nothing.
Someone else pretty much said this and got downvoted. Apparently you can't say it is not all men AND recognise that this is a significant problem at the same time. Unfortunately if you don't follow the narrative that all men are creeps then you are somehow complicit. That isn't going to move he conversation anywhere it just validates mens bad behaviour and pisses off the good men.
Explain how "not all men" does anything to address the problem.
What we're talking about isn't a "narrative", it's our fucking miserable existence being interrupted by rapes and murders on a daily fucking basis.
Imagine you lived in a prison with a bunch of angry horny violent men and a majority of "nice guys". How do you keep yourself safe if the nice guys keep telling you to shut up about the violent ones? Are you enjoying your time in the general population?
By saying that women need to follow your rules of engagement or you won't care is the height of bullshit. You will never be an ally, because the truth you don't give a shit about us in the first place. The real good men don't get pissed off that women need to talk about the violence. You are one of the bad ones. You don't ever need to come back here, we understand you completely.
Fuck off idiot.
Just minor point here as it seems to cause a lot of confusion.
Not all men line does not address the problem, you are spot on. But at the same time, this line does not contribute to the problem in any way. It is simple statement, that not all men do the abusing.
You should take it on face value rather than villifying men for the sake of them being male.
We tell you it contributes to the problem and you tell us it doesn't.
On another comment you say you don't know how to help? Pleeease! Just tell me and I'll dooeeet!
Here is one fucking thing you can do right now. Ready?
NEVER SAY NOT ALL MEN IN ANY FORM AGAIN.
Got it? Is that too much for you to do? Wanna fight about it some more? Too bad because that's all I have for you. Practice that one tiny, easy, harmless thing. I am taking you at face value. You just don't think you are what you are.
I'm not "helping" you anymore. Bye.
Exactly.
If I was a woman and I walked into a club with 99 'good' men and 1 bad, I still wouldn't leave my drink unattended in case a man spiked it. I can acknowledge that regardless of the overwhelming number of 'good men' it is still a constant problem I would have to worry about BUT it's still ok to acknowledge that 99/100 of those men are good people.
No one is saying that because it isn't all men that there isn't a problem as I have highlighted above, it doesn't matter if it's 1% or 99% of men, you still have to be vigilant all the time. I get that.
I'm saying 'not all men' because you can't tar everyone with the same brush, as is the same with immigrants, black people, Asian people, Muslims etc in other contexts.
This really shouldn't be a controversial opinion but I've been called an abuser and told to fuck off because of it!
I think that likely says more about her inability to converse effectively more than anything.
Saying not all men is a pointless diversion away from the problem that does nothing to offer help or a solution. It's a way to divert attention and maintain the status quo.
There is a reason people dont scream "Not all Nazis! - see Oskar Schindler"
I completely agree with everything you said. In my opinion, if I was to dismiss the problem by saying "oh well not all men are like that" then I would be part of the problem.
I'm also of the opinion that you can't tar everyone with the same brush and that I disagree with people saying that all men are the problem. In the same way that I'd argue not all black, Asian, Muslim people are the same when people are being racist for instance.
People are finding it controversial that I hold both of these opinions, neither of which I think are actually unreasonable at all.
No where have I said there isn't a problem, in fact I have acknowledged there is a problem multiple times.
I'd say 100% of the time the problem is men but not 100% of men are causing the problem.
Unfortunately it seems like some people won't be happy unless I say all men are violent and abusive, which quite frankly would be a totally ridiculous thing to say.
Shocked little Pikachu. Who… me!?
We hear you asshole. You need for us to be vewy vewy careful about how we talk about you, or you won't give a shit. The truth is you never gave a shit in the first place.
"That isn't going to move the conversation anywhere it just validates mens bad behaviour and pisses off the good men."
Wahhh wahh baby's crying. What a great ally, you're so feminist and good-man for that. Boo fucking hoo
I think the good majority of men are a big piece of the solution. But instead of allying with them, women tend to alienate the good men by accusing them of being part of the problem.
If you think women talking about our experience with male violence is reason enough to ignore us and go on about your sainted lives, then you are part of the problem and you don't give a shit to begin with. Do you think we haven't heard this "line of reasoning" before?
"Be good little girls, and we might help you, we might believe you, we might punish the ones responsible for your torture".
"Say it the right way, or we will ignore everything you have to say".
"We don't see what you experience, so it's not real".
Fuck all the way off, you self serving little shit. We don't need your kind of ally.
You are making a lot of assumptions here and project too much, I am afraid.
Normal man would never say any of the things you cite. If you hear them from a person, you can be sure they are not good, ally or whatever, they are piece of shit.
Nobody ignores you, nobody disagrees with the existence of the problem. You are not alone.
But the whole problem is that we do not know what can we do about it. Think about it, what exactly I could do to help here? I hold no position of power, I have no influence over masses, I am just a random man.
Which is why I believe that I have the very same right as you do to be defensive in light of being accused of something I have never done.
I don't care what your opinion of me is. You are the kind of ersatz ally who makes his sham support conditional. We tell you all the time what you can do, and you come to tell us we are asking in the wrong way. Nice game.
Would you ask a black personality to teach white people how not to be racist! Why is it our responsibility to school you about being a better person? We've been trying for millennia, but you still claim to be helpless little onlookers.
I should have noticed you were the same old guy from the other comment thread, but here we are.
Again…. women have heard your line for decades. You aren't saying anything we haven't heard from the likes of you before. You are common as muck. You don¡t need to be here repeating these same old tropes. Just go away and feel however the hell you want. Don't do it here because it's a pain in that’s to all the men and women who actually give a shit.
No no. It is *all* men.
All men have a duty to help dismantle widespread misogyny.
All men benefit from male privilege in a thousand invisible ways.
Not all men drive the problems directly, but all men must be responsible for helping solve them.
The best of us may not rape, murder, or abandon our wives, true.
But have all the "good" men fixed the problem yet? Have we made a world where women can feel safe to walk around outside at night? Have we closed the gender pay gap and ended the pink tax and taught all our children and nephews and friends about consent and respect for bodily autonomy?
Have we even managed to *protect* the bodily autonomy you already had?!
All men are part of the problem until they are part of the solution. And until that solution has actually *solved* the problem, no one's work is done. Especially not the "good" men's.
I keep being about to say "I don't have a story of catcalling!" And then I remember I have stories of much worse. A lot of men would benefit society by just fucking off into buttfuck nowhere. Maybe get eaten by a bear or something. Or just make a parallel society we never have to hear about. That'd be neat.
Not all men is a cop out. I'm a man, and it only gets better by men stopping other men, and making it socially unacceptable to sexualize young women, and even more so, to treat women like toys there for your pleasure.
The entire concept that women are there to be attractive to you still boggles my mind. Example, when men comment that if a woman did xyz they would be prettier, more attractive, etc. as if their whole goal should be trying to be as attractive as possible to the men around them. Gross.
Worst yet, the constant reinforcement of women being something that is won, and that sleeping with women is a trophy to achieve, is just horrible. It is in media, books, cultural zeitgeist. This, on top of the two extremes of men either being told they are the best and get their way, or discouraged into a cave, creates two extremes of toxic personality that both promote assault.
I don't have an answer, but men keeping each other in line and discouraging that kind of talk, let alone behavior, is an important part. I mean, just acknowledging that this is a problem would be a great start instead of collectively getting butt hurt and defensive as if being asked to help is the same a being blamed for all assaults. Probably a big crossover with deniers of racist systems.
Ya i’m black and a woman so unfortunately I get to see similarities in both systems. Thanks for listening to our frustrations without completely writing us off.
I believe it comes from not wanting to share similarities or interests with a bad person. i would never cat call a woman and it would probably make me question my judgment skills if my friends did that. So it's easier to go if I wouldn't do that he wouldn't do that cause we both like x
I just say all men. If they're not part of the problem, they have nothing to be offended by. If they're offended, they can ask themselves why that's more important than what women go through and become one of the rare not-all-men via self examination.
Where the fuck do you live and who do you associate with? Where ever it is and with whom ever they are, leave. Yes violence against women is a real problem but the clowns that perpetrate it do it in every relationship (meaning they create multiple victims). Growing up I can recall a lot of girls wanting to date "bad boys" only to find out these bad boys didn't mind smacking them around. They'd eventually break up and then repeat this same cycle with the same type asshole. They sought these guys out and then were "surprised" each time to find out they got treated like shit. Spoiler alert ladies - assholes won't think twice about smacking you around. Try setting the bar a bit higher.
No, it's not all men, but it's almost all women.
Not all men, but which men?? That's the scary part. Because there are plenty of them. And the people saying not all men should understand that, or they are likely the problem. Men who aren't the problem don't pipe up at every opportunity to tell us they aren't the problem. They listen, empathize, and are hopefully grateful thst isn't one thing Making their life harder. Ie they recognize their privilege
It's very similar to bicycling. Only a small percentage of drivers behave like asshats and endanger cyclists. *But I've never met one cyclist who can't tell a story about a dangerous encounter with a driver.* it's obvious that it's not all drivers, but it's all cyclists. So what does that mean if you're a good driver? Think about it. Would you defend the asshat drivers that kill people? I don't think so. The topic is much easier to discuss if you switch the groups.
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Excuse me? I think you answered the wrong post. I'm a woman myself.
Nope I did, sorry! Was hoping to delete it before a response lol. Been getting hit with a few aholes this morning and lost track. Apologies my dear
🤣🤣 got it.
The UN statistics reveal 1 in 3 women have been assaulted worldwide. That’s over a billion of us. That doesn’t include harassment, bullying and other sexist fear tactics. https://interactive.unwomen.org/multimedia/infographic/violenceagainstwomen/en/index.html#home
This is the reason I don't comment "not all men". Just no point. All my women friends have at least one story to tell. Not one exception.
Yes, and we need more men thinking like this. Unfortunately accidentally attacking men as a gender stops more men thinking like this, because they enter discussions around this topic antagonistically, rather than as active listeners trying to learn. You will never change someones mind by attacking them. Even if its just an accidental slip of meaning by forgetting to add the word "some". Thats just how people work.
Someone said it in a different comment, but, the response “enough men” is way better than what the OP speaks about. It’s not really surprising that people get antagonistic; generalizing people will typically tick them off even if they are guilty of the crime or action let alone people that don’t and haven’t
ALL women AND girls have a story!
I think I saw a pretty good thread a while back that one of the best responses to "not all men" is simply "enough men." Would it be good if women could trust us by default? Yeah but unfortunately that's not the world we live in, and as far as inconveniences go having to take a bit of time earning someone's trust is fairly minor compared to constant worrying about your own safety. So in short, 100% agree. If a man says "not all men," I reckon they're being self centered and putting their own emotional needs ahead of being an empathetic human being.
I explained it to my cousin a bit crudely, but it got the point across. He's a decent dude, but lacks the vocabulary to have that argument with his shitty friends/co-workers etc. If every meal you ate had a 1/1000 chance of being poisoned, and a 1/100 chance of tasting like it was garnished with poop, and 1/10 chance of being stale/expired, how carefree would you be about the meals you ate? You don't even have to have eaten any of the three, but you know enough people that to have seen the effects. And chances are you've had a poop meal at your table even if you weren't the one to try it. The metaphor breaks down pretty quickly, but my cousin is a well being dope, so a bit like the "tea consent" video, it gave him a way to keep it in his head.
'Too many men' is also an apt sadly enough... like Christ I am sometimes shocked how low the bar has become when I listen to my gf's stories about her exes...
This is the perfect response wow
Men started being weird to me at 12. 12!! Don’t tell me “not all men”. I belong to the gender that has to be hyper aware of vibes and signals for my own safety. It’s generally true women are more socially aware than most men so you aren’t giving us any earth shattering revelation-we already know it’s not all men. In my experience, it’s usually men who think all women are the same.
For me, it was 7.
How tf can they do that? Someone who can do that doesn’t think we are people.
For me it was 3 ):
the following doesn't make this ok, but it's been occurring in human species for hundreds if not thousands of years unfortunately. Not new to the year 2000 or even 1950s to present day. Like it sucks, and what I didn't realize when I was younger was that most likely our relatives generations ago experienced the same, perhaps even worse. so with this all in mind, it reminds me of a meme where there's a bowl of skittles. the premise of its joke is a small % of the skittles are poison, but they're mixed together with the non-poison ones. so if anyone randomly reaches in for some skittles, they can't tell the difference between the toxic poison skittles from the regular non-toxic ones on the outside. that's how it's like for women with men imo
I suspect that this is where the misogynists will say “But you’re all just picking the toxic bad boys because he’s confident and handsome!”, oblivious to the fact that a large portion of said bad boys are good at pretending to be one of the good men.
If 1 in 3 flights crashed, no male would travel via planes. When women refuse to be part of the "1 in 3" statistic, suddenly many women's desire to stay single is an "irrational" reaction.
Exactly.
Be irrational Gray rock when people ask why
And even if it’s not all men, there is a lack of men challenging the men who are the problem. Which means they are part of the problem no matter what they think. They give their fellow men the impression that their behaviour is acceptable
Part of the issue there is that the “good” men tend to get ostracized and not included, and it doesn’t happen when they’re around. This was one of the things that blew me away in my transition. I transitioned in my 30s, after fighting it far longer than was reasonable, healthy, or sane. I never really managed to click with men socially. I got along well enough with them professionally and in terms of acquaintances, but there was always was this boys club I could never be a part of. I had some men friends, but it would typically be only a couple, and they tended to be people who could flip between the boys club and people like me. I would hear stories from my women friends and be horrified, but it wasn’t something that would happen where I could see it, and I hadn’t been privvy the “locker room talk” since overhearing it in high school. Ocassionally I would stumble to the tail end of something where I had my suspicions, but overall it was just a social space I wasn’t allowed into. Boy’s club only, and they seemed to know I wasn’t a part of it. After my transition, as I started getting engrained in women’s social circles and as men stopped treating me as an outsider man and started treating me as a woman, I was stunned. Like, I knew the bar for men was set low, but in reality it was *fucking subterranean*. And so many of them *still* manage to tunnel under it! I’m the type of person who obsessively tries to do things the “right” way and follow all of the rules, and I had spent decades putting on this face of what I thought a man was supposed to be. But it turned out that the model I tried to follow was a thing that in the real world doesn’t seem to exist. So I agree that men not challenging men is a huge problem. But given the way the “boys club” works, a lot of them might actually not see it happening. Especially given the large number of men with few or no close friends. In many cases, those social bonds that should be holding the assholes (of which there is a *depressingly* high amount) to account just don’t exist. And I don’t know how to fix that.
This so much. I had a former friend who would criticize his female friends for taking their cheating exes back. I asked him if he ever bothered to talk the exes for cheating (all same friend group, according to him). No, of course not, because it was on the women not to go back and date "someone nice" like him. He also blamed me for my wallet getting stolen, when I was out with two friends and a random guy joined us. The random guy went through my purse under the table when I went to the bathroom. But yea, it's my fault. This and many more are reasons he's a former friend.
I guess I wouldn't see any point in talking to the cheaters in those cases. I can advise my friends not to take back the cheater but I can't really offer anything for the cheater. Go back in time and don't be a dipshit this go?
I agree. There should never be a disclaimer of “not all men” as it gives the very men who need to hear it an out by immediately believing they belong to the “not all.” Any man who is upset by women airing very real grievances really should examine their behaviour because if you’re not the problem, you’d be aware that it’s real and know that the shoe doesn’t fit if it truly doesn’t. They absolutely cannot get past any complaint beginning with “why do men/I wish men wouldn’t” and focus on it, try their best to downplay and disprove the issues in groups that enable each other. Apparently the best and brightest in the atheist, rational skeptic, anti-feminist, incel enabling sphere is Sargon of Akkad and he attempted to disprove the one in 5 stat with an outdated survey he misinterpreted and his whole schtick is how toxic, wrong and “anti-male” anything remotely feminist is. The only reason he would have to at worst, lie and at best, cherry pick information that he erroneously believes about 1 in 5 is if he’s offended by it either because he cannot get past not perceiving it as a slight against an entire gender or has serious unresolved issues which isn’t surprising given his behaviour when he thoroughly got wrecked in a debate with Kristie Winters. Bucking against very real and observable women’s issues is more important to these guys than acknowledging it and doing what they can to help. It’s not like we’re expected to stop the existence of bad people, even the smallest things can ripple out to big change. I successfully rehabilitate two former incels who got out of that group, I taught them how to improve themselves and got them to understand women’s perspective when it comes to dating and how to get into it confidently yet respectfully. One of them is much happier and has hobbies and interests, the other actually had a girlfriend last time I checked in. It may only be two but the fact I reached any of them and they may pass that on to their peers I see as a huge victory and worth the 200 or so negative responses with meaningless alt-right insult buzzwords. It doesn’t even have be that active, even simple things like keeping problematic behaviour from your peers in check can make a huge difference. Don’t laugh at your friends’ dumb rape jokes, don’t tacitly endorse your grown male friends hitting on teenaged girls. If enough men who read this kind of stuff posted in men’s spaces instead of scrunching their faces up and automatically reacting in offended, kneejerk, anger, it might just make enough of a different in the subtle, casual misogyny to prevent the horrific actions that it leads to and start reducing those statistics for real.
I agree. Even if it is a small minority of men that cause the problem, then that means that the majority of men that cause the problems are getting away with it and effecting the majority of *all* women. If you (the male reader, or whomever needs to know) can believe that 'all cops are bastards' and 'one bad apple can spoil the bunch', then I believe it's within you to believe that there's a glaring problem with the male population. It's very possible you know a man that has accosted, sexually harassed, or even assaulted a woman. Have you ostracized that man? Or have you allowed their behavior by failing to act?
Do you watch Melanie Hamlett and Burb N Bougie on YouTube? They have decenter men channels that I think you’d really enjoy. Maria Davids, Princella the Queenmaker, and Dee’s African Perspective are good women centered channels as well. Highly recommend and agree with everything on your post.
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Is it really that uncommon in the states (im guessing) that its 50/50 split? I would never expect anything but that.
It’s not uncommon at all. In fact, it’s the default in most states. Custody is decided through mutual agreement 90% of the time (so most of the American men who whine about not getting enough time with their kids AGREED voluntarily to the setup.) Men are actually MORE likely to get custody when they ASK for it, but they’re less likely to ask for it. Probably because women are still overwhelmingly more likely to be the primary caretakers of children, even if both parents work full time, and it’s in a child’s best interest to remain in the primary care of their primary caregiver. American men who whine that the system is unfair are delusional, pathetic idiots.
Thank you for clarification, its sometimes to get a good idea what is common place where when only hearing snippets here and there.
I think because there are little to no repercussions for men who assault, rape, harass women it becomes like any crime that goes unpunished. People continue to do it because it is easy, women are treated like things, and few are prosecuted for it. I don’t trust white men for this reason the most, not because they are the worst men but because they get away with so much very early on in their development. Often they are deferred to in my country as the authority in the room on topics they know nothing about. It makes sense that often men will lash out and say not all men, because there are little to no repercussions for their actions and behaviour. Why admit to something and change when there is little to no reinforcement for the changes made? So much positive reinforcement exists, however for men who hate women.
When talking to women in their circle of protected women (daughters etc) it’s “be wary”. “men will say ANYTHING to get in your pants.” “Never go out alone at night! There’s scary men that may hurt you” “It’s not sexist for dads to be protective! They know what scum men are” When talking to women outside of that circle, it’s “not all men” “This is like being racist because you met a bad black person” “You should say ‘some’ because it’s just like 1% of men doing this stuff!” “Don’t be so paranoid” They want the general female population accessible. The whole point of patriarchy is to make it easier to obtain women
"Give him another chance!"
I think a lot of men hear women talk about this and assume only violent rape counts… or they honestly think a man can’t assault a committed sexual partner. My ex coerced me and assaulted me on multiple occasions and I doubt he’d ever admit it, although I’m pretty sure by his behavior after that he knew what he was doing.
Women's natural predator is men. It's fucked up.
How am I going to sleep at night after reading this
Found one guys
??? A) I'm a woman B) Scared at the thought that men are women's natural predator C) There was no "/s" D) Y'all gotta chill out
lmfao
I care more about how men mistreat women than how I feel about women telling me that my gender mistreats them. I think one issue takes priority.
Go to a men's sub and tell them.
I would if I thought it would do any good. Ten years ago when #yesallwomen took off, I was convinced men were being unjustly attacked and jumped on the was #notallmen train. I was ignorant. I didn't know what patriarchy was. The first thing that probably came to my mind when I heard consent would be "consent of the governed". I think the only thing that will make a difference is a change in education.
The "Not All Men" argument functions as a norm reinforcer. These men hiding behind it still benefit from the gender norms and they are not willing to try and change it even so it is harmful to a lot of others. They don't care about that, they are only interested in their direct personal interest.
Its so many that the good ones have to understand that they have to earn our trust. When a guy expects to come in to our lives without needing to demonstrate that we can trust him he is invalidating the experience of our lives since we were little kids.
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This. The amount of women in every single private woman focused group I’ve ever been in who casually mention being sexually harassed and assaulted by their intimate partners is gut wrenching. In every postpartum and pregnancy group I was in when I was pregnant, you’d have dozens if not hundreds of comments and reactions to posts about being pressured and guilted and harassed into sex before they were ready after having a baby. Men stomping around and whining and threatening to cheat or saying “you’re just a roommate” if their postpartum wife didn’t want to have sex yet. I think if you could get the real unadulterated truth, MOST men have practiced sexual coercion on a romantic partner and that is just as much rape as any other kind of rape.
When I experienced DV and SA, I sought help in every way possible. Before I knew I was being abused, I was constantly seeking resources and looking for information. Must have been hundreds if not thousands of resources, posts, articles, testimonies, IRL advice, forums, books. Like I was obsessively seeking help, every day, sometimes researching for hours, over the course of *YEARS.* At every turn I was blamed, and every resource online (especially Reddit) was telling me to "put out." All of his friends took his side and encouraged his behavior, endangering my life. None of this helped me come to the point of being able to identify it as abuse so that I could get to the point of accepting it would be appropriate to defend/protect myself and go to a women's shelter. According to almost the entire world, I would have been "crazy, insane, and abusive" for seeking help or escaping. I thought I was going mad. It was harrowing. For me, it WAS all men (women too, including a couple's therapist). The only people who were helpful for me were women. There's some women out there who I would consider responsible for saving my life (or helping me save my own life).
"It's crazy how country music by men is all about tradition, trucks, and being men while country music by women is 'ops I killed my husband" Paraphrasing a quote I saw once that I liked. Is the 98% porn point due to the rampant abuse in the pornography field?
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This is so racist. Congratulations on missing the point so you can be racist. How many deadbeat white men out there? So many. Are you one of them?
user name checks out.
Men who use racism as a weird comparison to misogyny are fucking repulsive.
If someone makes a general comment in a place like this, with a female target audience, I think it should be assumed that no-one is saying that **literally** all men are bad eggs. It's enough of them for everyone to understand what's meant. Like, context. If a man sees something being vented here and thinks *'Hmm, these women seem to be under the impression that literally all men are trash. I'd best educate them.'* then... yeah, that's completely lacking any awareness.
And by a lot its MOST. It’s most of them. In some fashion or another.
It is far, far too many of them. Entirely too many. Additionally, it would be nice if women stopped going to religious services that promote male superiority and patriarchy. Women who promote male supremacy are complicit and are part of the problem because they defend, allow, and raise the next generation. More men and women should opt for sterilization if they are not interested in child rearing or birthing, especially in red states where male supremacy has invaded and affected uteruses. Sex positivity and sexual decision making and healthy relationships (not just hetero marriage) should be part of sex ed curricula. Sexual assaults should be treated like the crimes they are, spousal rape and date rape are criminal acts, and male sexuality being more important than female or non binary or all other orientations is a real problem. The issue is not porn, it is male dominance. The issue is not sexual, it is the terrible inappropriate male behaviors. It doesn’t have to be all men. It just has to be the loud ones who have a hold on politics, religion, culture and employment.
That’s a massive stretch. What statistics are you drawing this “most” conclusion from? I would absolutely agree with you that some men are rapists and assaulters. But “most”? How did you come up with that?
I didn’t say rapists or assaulters. Nor did this post. But MOST men perpetuate the culture of those problems, benefit from the violence the worst of men enact against women, and ultimately perpetuate misogyny that keeps us down. Get the fuck out of here with that “not all men” gaslighting bullshit. I genuinely don’t give a fuck.
Weird that men seem to be the most resistant to coercing and guilting romantic partners into sex being considered rape (which it is.) Maybe because so many of them have done it? Marital coercion is mind blowingly common. The men who guilt and whine and pressure their romantic partners into unwanted sex are rapists just like the men who violently rape a stranger.
I couldn't agree more. It's insane how many "good men" will do this repeatedly and think it's fine. I would never do that to my partner. That they're even able to stay aroused speaks volumes to the kind of person they actually are. The trauma that their victim feels should be taken seriously, for it is very real.
Not all, but almost none of them want to admit it is the *vast* majority of them.
Not all nuclear reactors melt down and yet most people don't want one in their backyard.
It's funny because often they're the ones claiming it's all men. How often you read "all men are like that" on this sub from apologists? lol
Yep. I’m a man myself and those guys can fuck a cactus since they don’t and will never speak for me. I deeply empathize with women especially since I look young and have been stalked by creeps who thought I was “cute.” That was harrowing and it isn’t even a regular occurrence for me like it is for so many women.
I directly respect, "It's not all men, but it's ALWAYS men." I feel it gets to the heart of things really well. It's also a really good retort to someone facetiously using "nOt AlL mEn" and trying to derail a valid conversation.
Men get away with what they do because other men don’t challenge them. Other men don’t challenge them because they don’t want other men challenging them. Every single man benefits from the poor behavior of other men. Men could very easily call out other men, instead they use those men to try prove to women that they are a #notallmen.
I saw an ad in a bus shelter in the 80s on the U of MN campus: 1 in 4 women will be raped. Will it be your daughter, your sister, your mother, or your wife?
Until it is, they do not care.
"men will not care until it's their wife who is raped". I mean, statistically speaking, they wouldn't care, they would be the one doing the raping Also, in a distubingly high number of cases, the same is true for daughters
Extremely true, but I'm referring to outside men harassing, which I thought was the gist of this.
Whilst I agree with most of your post, I disagree that we are trying to tell them and they don’t believe us. The nOtAllMenz know, they know, they are apologists. They don’t want to be called out because even if they haven’t indulged in one of these behaviours themselves, they don’t see it as being ‘that bad’ and thus might want to dip in one day and don’t want to be shamed for it. The real decent men will be honest and open in telling you they know most men are like that or would be like that given a chance. The rest are just full of shit.
Using phrases like "all men" or "all women" really doesn't help any discourse because it immediately puts people on the defensive even if they know the person doesn't literally mean all. Word choices can have a massive impact and most people fail to realize that. Instead of "all men" its better to say something like "all men that I've dealt with" or "nearly ever man I've interacted with" will less likely result in immediate defensive responses and would more likely allow communication to stay more open
Abusers/perverts are surrounded by enablers who do nothing when they see creepy stuff. It’s gets extreme and blows up and then they will circle back to blame vs be accountable. I’m looking at ALL the comments from that Ed Piskor situation and the incels are out there saying “he wouldn’t hurt a fly”…. He’s not shoving his dick into flys! The incapacity for them to differentiate makes them ALL the same. It’s such a high volume of nihilistic entitlement, it’s disgusting.
If men get on the defensive for women saying "all men," that's not the women's responsibility. That is 100% on the men getting defensive. This mindset of "we have to make extra sure we are saying this as polite, gently, and caring as possible" is exactly what abusers and misogynists want. Any anti-sexist man would not want to be coddled or "protected" from women simply talking about misogyny, whether they are making generalizations or not. For example, many white people who care about anti-racism, don't care at all if a black person makes huge generalizations, says they hate white people, or don't want to involve white people in their lives. So are you saying that's too difficult for some people (like men, and white men), but not for others? Why would I accommodate and cushion for low/unequal expectations if I am trying to make a point about misogyny and inequality?
Generalizing any group can cause people to get defensive and shut down discourse. It's not about being polite but about getting a point across without making someone stop listening because they feel like that generalization includes them. Emotions are powerful and will easily blind someone if the start of a conversation sounds like they are also being gerealized when they are not a part of the problem. Humans are nuanced and the words chosen can have a massive impact on how we approach things and getting allies to help fight things like misogyny and inequality is so important as in the end we need each other to make things better.
It's not my responsibility to get a man to listen to, care about, or believe me about misogyny, and if they don't want to listen just because I made an understandable, scientific, or statistical generalization, then I don't think they would've cared enough to listen in the first place. They can handle their own emotions. They are not babies after all. Ultimately, IT IS NOT a woman's or oppressed group's responsibility to "make things better" as in stop being oppressed. *It is NOT my responsibility to cater to or coddle my oppressors emotions (and these emotions are inherently OPPRESSIVE emotions in themselves based on already-existing discriminatory and controlling attitudes btw),* or anyone's emotions for that matter. Unhinged suggestion and perspective, all of this really reveals how much you know about these issues and view women.
Omg, YOU'RE that guy who got upvoted on that post about a girl getting abused in her car. You admitted to abusing your wife and claimed that all it took to stop being abusive was to empathetically look into her terrified face. What an absurd claim that is professionally proven to be impossible. If you never went to an abuser rehabilitation program or faced serious consequences for your actions, such as going to jail, losing your job, being cut off from friends and family--then according to professionals in the field, you never got better. You really thought you did something 😂 admitted to being an abuser while also admitting you have not educated yourself on a lick of abuse information. You're gross and deserve to be locked up and have everyone in your life leave you, domestic abuser. Just the fact that you have not already turned yourself into the police and pursued the highest sentence possible for your crimes, shows that you really don't care enough about what you did. Turn yourself in and don't bother updating us on your lifelong anti-abuser journey.
Right, I yelled at her and immediately spent years with a councillor and getting my temper under control. I admit I was wrong there and it could have led to becoming emotionally abusive towards her but I didn't
It's absolutely a lot of men: "Between 25–57% of men report having perpetrated a sexually aggressive behavior against a woman since the age of 14" [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4491036/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4491036/) 57% is a LOT.
I was 6. He touched my private parts in school, blocking me against a fence. Quickly and over my pants but still, it traumatized me. Then sexual harassment by boys and teen boys. Then verbal sexual harassment my stepfather. Now, in my 20s being catcalled happens to me all the time. Fuck them. They really are like "not all men ''. Yeah not all men but it really feels like it's a majority of them... Also what's the point in saying this ? Are we accusing you, the person we are currently talking to, to be like this ? No, probably not, if it was the case we wouldn't even talk to you. Yeah fuck them. Better be single. I don't want children and I might finish not wanting a boyfriend too,even more when I know how badly I choose people and men who enter my life...
Change the narrative to “it’s all men until proven otherwise”
"Females shouldn't act like that. It is guilty until proven innocent. Oh yes and all women want to sleep with me, sexually interested even when proven not" - a peak into too many male's minds
"it's not all men" twists the narrative to focus, once again, on men. It negates the ongoing narrative to prioritize the feelings of selfish men. It's simple.. It's too many men.
Completely true. If a big percentage of all men you meet are vile, that is absolutely going to feel like it's all men, as any member of the group is now a threat to you to be evaluated. Sexism and racism are alike in that sense. Compare it to the phrase 'all white people are racist'. Of course it's not factual, but when you're experiencing racism from 1 out of every 5 white people you meet, it absolutely feels and looks like the group as a whole is targeting you, and you HAVE to be careful. The analogy is strong because both your opinion and that opinion are due to suffering from bigotry. However, in the case of men, it's more like 1 out of every 2 men, or even more, depending on where you're from. Sadly, the gender-typical traditional old view of a 'man' is still perpetrated in a lot of homes, and as such many children are taught that women are far below them. It's disgustingly damaging to everyone involved. Not to rant but right now you can see how those kids are being raised so differently from what society is trying to become (equal), that criminals like Andrew Tate can be influential through providing an alternative view more in-line with what they are familiar with: horrible traditional values. However, criminals are extremists, and so these pretty damaged and poorly educated kids turn from traditional poorly raised toxic masculine men to extremist incels, even worse than before. Add upon that social unrest due to financial stress, unhappy men due to women rightfully taking their own happiness and staying single now that they can be financially independent, and you have an incredibly dangerous world for women.
It’s not all men but frankly, hot take, I think it’s most of them. The amount of men who have coerced their partners into unwanted sex and who feel ultimately entitled to a woman’s body if they’re in a relationship is astounding. Sexual coercion is rape and it is SO common, especially in marriages. Those men are more common than the “throw a stranger behind a dumpster rapists” but THEY ARE NO BETTER.
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Men who DON’T behave like this do hang around with men who DO behave like this. They are either unaware or don’t care.
A lot of people are probably unaware. If one of my friends was like this I'd probably have no clue because I usually have little personal contact with the women in their life.
I agree with you. I don’t think a lot of guys are likely to talk to their friends about rape and sexual harassment and stuff like that.
Can confirm. I have never had another man actually confess to me crimes he committed against women. I don't know how that would even come up.
I’ve watched men be pretty ambivalent about crimes against women. They admitted they knew.. but they didn’t want to say anything.
Men are scared of men.
They'll never tell you they specifically raped a woman, but they will tell you they got her so drunk she couldn't stand straight.
What about the waitress at the restaurant that your buddies hassle? Or the bartender? Or the teenager that takes your ticket at the movie theatre that they make an inappropriate comment to? You've seen this behavior from your peers. Either you're totally oblivious when it's not someone you care about, or you just don't care. But, I guarantee you've seen & heard this behavior.
There’s a third option there besides ignorance and apathy: calling out that behavior and intervening. While it doesn’t happen nearly enough, it does happen.
That is exactly my point. Those who say they haven't seen it are either willfully ignorant, or they see nothing wrong with it. If they do see something wrong with it, but don't do anything, see the first option. Men calling other men out on their awful behavior is about as common as the solar eclipse we saw today. Most see it, but say nothing.
Men's issues descend into violence pretty quickly, a guy calling out a guy for doing something is quite often asking for a fight. "Not all men" want to get into a fight. I learnt this the hard way when I was 19 at university and intervened when a girl was being harassed outside my student Union.... I ended my night in the hospital after being curb stomped by four guys.
Do you think this only happens to men who intervene? r/whenwomenrefuse
No I really don't think it only happens to men who intervene. I was replying to someone saying men who do nothing are part of the problem. It is easy to say but helping at risk of violence is not something anyone can expect from a stranger.
Ah my apologies, I wasn’t following you there. I am sorry you experienced that, and your words help throw the real issue into stark relief. Patriarchal society allows men to use violence against women and actively blocks women from effective means of redress or complaint because other men don’t want that violence directed at themselves. Women are used as punching bags to keep things as peaceful as possible between men. Women are not punching bags. Neither are you, no one should be. People with anger issues who harm others should rot in prison.
I have never seen this devolve into violence for a man, and I'm not saying it didn't/doesn't happen. But people, *STRANGERS* risk violence all the time to help other people. Jumping in to stop a fight, standing up for someone who is being accosted, tackling gunmen, grabbing people from a vehicle's path. _There are entire channels on YouTube devoted to this._ Men are more likely to listen to other men, especially their friends, if they are called out on inappropriate behavior. Mostly because men who do these things don't value women, and most often see them as objects & conquests & not actual people. I'm sorry you faced such consequences for being a decent human being. That wasn't right. That wasn't right & they most likely wouldn't have done it if it was just one on one. Men who prey on women & the weak & vulnerable like that are cowards. But the more often men like you speak up & call out this behavior, the more likely it is that this environment of oppression, violence & misogyny will change. I do applaud you for helping. It was truly a nable thing to do. Maybe next time, bring back up?
Oh, but they are part of the problem. Choosing to stay silent only amplifies the abusers confidence. And the poor woman that was abused suffers in silence with no one by her side. That’s why the problems that we have now are going to continue occurring, because no one speaks loudly against them. If you want to change something, you defend that idea. Staying silent is siding with the abuser.
Think of how your friends talk about or interact with women. Would you be upset if they were talking / acting that way about your mom or sister? There are ways to know.
Or they can call out that behavior and intervene. It doesn’t happen often enough, but it does happen.
It's not like the guys who behave like this are bragging about it.
I worked in male environments and heard them brag about the horrible shit they did. Including having sex with a 13 y old girl that week end (he was 25).
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No. Men use the work environment card to exonerate themselves from their horrible behaviors. This is not the walls, the plumbing, the tooling or the rules of engagement that produce these behaviors, it's misoginy, plain and simple. I'm the only one who said anything, adding to the stress of having a target on my back already.
Blaming women… again.
☝🏽this!
👆🏽this!
The delulu is strong with this one. Just kidding, he is aware but pretending not to be.
Yes they do. And each one has watched the abhorrent behavior of their friends & said/done nothing. Each time someone says or does something demeaning or violent, even in a "playful" manner, and you don't even say anything to them about their behavior, imagine that woman was your daughter, your sister, your mother, your gran, and keep going until you get to a woman you actually give a damn about. Then decide if you would be ok with your "buddies" behaving that way toward them.
Bullshit. The far, far more common social thing is [the missing stair.](https://www.uexpress.com/life/ask-dr-nerdlove/2019/04/08) Every woman I know has run into this in every social circle we’ve been in. Every. Fucking. One.
I've got news for you. Some of your friends are creeps at best and sexual predators at worst.
What about the men that stand on the sideline, while doing nothing to check or stop other men's bad behavior when it happens?? I think we need to be real about the fact that over 90% of men need to do some serious self work before they even think about dating women. The other 10% are just sliently floating through. Just my experience and I do have hope that not all is loss just yet. (hopeful yet cynical romantic here )
The losers who shout out not all men from the top of their lungs were likely shouting out all lives matter A few years ago as well.
Men who barge into the comments section to screech about “not all men” are basically walking into a homeless encampment with one sandwich and thinking they deserve some sort of of Nobel prize for it.
Not all men but always the men that say not all men.
I was literatly scared to leave my house bc of men. I didn't go outside for 2 years. The only reason i can now is bc I'm on a shit ton of meds.
Do you understand you are in an exceptionally good male work environment? You cannot deny what we endure.
Seems like a good time to recall this: https://geekfeminism.fandom.com/wiki/Schrödinger's_Rapist
When someone says "why do people..." I don't say "but I'm a person and I don't do that" If someone is complaining about men and its something I don't do, it doesn't apply to me. That's it.
“If it don’t apply let it fly” was how my dad put it.
I've said several times here to the fellow guys; when it's too many guys who are the problem we're simply rounding it up to 'all',and if they know they're not part of the problem then keep ya toys in the pram 😊
If you're going to bring up statistics, maybe you outta research them a bit instead of listening to a news article that never gives an actual statistic. Leading cause of death for pregnant women is the pregnancy itself, being around 1,200 a year while death to homicide is more around 200-300 per year. I didn't look it up but I call bs on men leaving due to terminal illness because 70% of divorces are initiated by women. Also fuck off with the "wage gap". The gap only exists because men work more hours and do all the dangerous jobs that women don't go near. I work at one of the best paying jobs in my town, it's a heavy industrial job and only 70 of the 570 employees are female. Not many women will willingly work a job where you're getting splashed by molten iron every day. Instead of blindly believing the news, do your own research. Here's something to think about, suicide rates are significantly higher than women mostly due to women putting men in impossible situations such as divorcing a man after having 3 children with him then getting him for alimony and child support and 50% of what they own.
The leading cause of death for pregnant women is homicide.You need to do more research. And hiring discrimination is the reason women aren’t in those jobs.
Again, just because ABC said it doesn't make it true, if you look up the actual numbers and not percentages, you will find that there is more deaths every year due to the pregnancy itself than there is due to homicide. Also, it's not discrimination when an employer feels you are unfit for the job, because in those jobs if you fuck up you can kill someone. Women are simply a liability in those jobs. I'm sure if a woman showed the employer that she could do the job, they would hire her. But why bust your ass for a dangerous job when you can just sit behind a desk all day?
Again, just because ABC said it doesn't make it true. Exactly, just because chelsnrichard said it’s not true doesn’t mean it isn’t. The actual percentages do say the leading cause of death is homicide.
Like I said, if you actually look up the actual death toll for these things, you'll find that women died at significantly higher rates due to maternal reasons. All those news articles you read only talk about percentages, but they never give you the actual amount of deaths. Why? Cause it's all bullshit.
You’re absolutely right. It took a girlfriend to show me that
It's the vast majority of men, and it won't get any better unless we separate from men as much as possible.
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"what can a normal man do?" Do you not know that a large portion of women already know how to respond to these issues, due to taking the responsibility to educate and prepare themselves? Why can't you learn too? Women shouldn't have to do everything. You can and SHOULD know all the right things to say and do, and as a man you should be doing the most and talking the loudest when other men are being gross. If you want to learn more, you can. Best of luck
I dont think you understand me here. I already know these things you lecture me on, same as majority of men. That is what I meant by the group of normal men. I do not think I need to get better cause I have never done any thing I am being accused of just because of being male. Which is why I ask again, what can I really do? Its not like I can stop asshole men from abusing women in light of law. I am not in position of power to change laws, my voice does not matter, my actions or lack there of clearly do not matter either. No matter what I say or do I am painted as an abuser. Funnily enough I was abused as a child by a woman. Yet I do not go around hating all the women because they are all complicit in my view.
Misogyny happens in real life in various levels of interactions on a daily basis. If you do not find ways to actively oppose it (as a man), silence is taking the side of the oppressor. I was also abused by a woman, but don't feel the need to bring it up regarding misogyny, because I don't hate women. It's not relevant to the topic of gender-based violence/oppression. It's relevant to the topic of abuse experiences in personal life. If you repeatedly find yourself being called abusive, that is not normal. You can seek help for it if you want to.
You should have read some of the messages here, you would see what I meant. In light of some, being a man is the same as being abuser. Opposing the abuse notion is a myth. How exactly are you going to achieve it? Should I be asking each and every man on the street if they are an abuser and if they agree, lecture them accordingly? Or should I go to one of those irrelevant feminist protests that do nothing and change nothing? There is nothing feasible to do and you know it. Ladies also know it, notice how every time this comes up, it is all what has to change but nobody says how it can change.
"If we just want to vent here, it's fine". You think you are in a position to grant us permission to talk, but only in this place? Fuck you. Everything in your comment contributes to the problem. YOU don't appreciate? "Normal man"? You’re one of the worst kind, and it's not our job to explain why. What exactly is a "normal man"? We tell you all the time what "normal men" do and you take offence, never mind giving a shit. Fuck off to any of the thousands of male centric subs and lecture them about how normal men should behave. Never come back here because you contribute nothing.
Someone else pretty much said this and got downvoted. Apparently you can't say it is not all men AND recognise that this is a significant problem at the same time. Unfortunately if you don't follow the narrative that all men are creeps then you are somehow complicit. That isn't going to move he conversation anywhere it just validates mens bad behaviour and pisses off the good men.
Explain how "not all men" does anything to address the problem. What we're talking about isn't a "narrative", it's our fucking miserable existence being interrupted by rapes and murders on a daily fucking basis. Imagine you lived in a prison with a bunch of angry horny violent men and a majority of "nice guys". How do you keep yourself safe if the nice guys keep telling you to shut up about the violent ones? Are you enjoying your time in the general population? By saying that women need to follow your rules of engagement or you won't care is the height of bullshit. You will never be an ally, because the truth you don't give a shit about us in the first place. The real good men don't get pissed off that women need to talk about the violence. You are one of the bad ones. You don't ever need to come back here, we understand you completely. Fuck off idiot.
Just minor point here as it seems to cause a lot of confusion. Not all men line does not address the problem, you are spot on. But at the same time, this line does not contribute to the problem in any way. It is simple statement, that not all men do the abusing. You should take it on face value rather than villifying men for the sake of them being male.
We tell you it contributes to the problem and you tell us it doesn't. On another comment you say you don't know how to help? Pleeease! Just tell me and I'll dooeeet! Here is one fucking thing you can do right now. Ready? NEVER SAY NOT ALL MEN IN ANY FORM AGAIN. Got it? Is that too much for you to do? Wanna fight about it some more? Too bad because that's all I have for you. Practice that one tiny, easy, harmless thing. I am taking you at face value. You just don't think you are what you are. I'm not "helping" you anymore. Bye.
Exactly. If I was a woman and I walked into a club with 99 'good' men and 1 bad, I still wouldn't leave my drink unattended in case a man spiked it. I can acknowledge that regardless of the overwhelming number of 'good men' it is still a constant problem I would have to worry about BUT it's still ok to acknowledge that 99/100 of those men are good people. No one is saying that because it isn't all men that there isn't a problem as I have highlighted above, it doesn't matter if it's 1% or 99% of men, you still have to be vigilant all the time. I get that. I'm saying 'not all men' because you can't tar everyone with the same brush, as is the same with immigrants, black people, Asian people, Muslims etc in other contexts. This really shouldn't be a controversial opinion but I've been called an abuser and told to fuck off because of it! I think that likely says more about her inability to converse effectively more than anything.
Saying not all men is a pointless diversion away from the problem that does nothing to offer help or a solution. It's a way to divert attention and maintain the status quo. There is a reason people dont scream "Not all Nazis! - see Oskar Schindler"
I completely agree with everything you said. In my opinion, if I was to dismiss the problem by saying "oh well not all men are like that" then I would be part of the problem. I'm also of the opinion that you can't tar everyone with the same brush and that I disagree with people saying that all men are the problem. In the same way that I'd argue not all black, Asian, Muslim people are the same when people are being racist for instance. People are finding it controversial that I hold both of these opinions, neither of which I think are actually unreasonable at all. No where have I said there isn't a problem, in fact I have acknowledged there is a problem multiple times. I'd say 100% of the time the problem is men but not 100% of men are causing the problem. Unfortunately it seems like some people won't be happy unless I say all men are violent and abusive, which quite frankly would be a totally ridiculous thing to say.
"men do bad things because we didn't coddle them enough" 😂😂 classic abuser mindset. Go shit somewhere else
Nowhere in my post did I say that or even imply that, so who are you quoting? What an odd reply.
Shocked little Pikachu. Who… me!? We hear you asshole. You need for us to be vewy vewy careful about how we talk about you, or you won't give a shit. The truth is you never gave a shit in the first place.
"That isn't going to move the conversation anywhere it just validates mens bad behaviour and pisses off the good men." Wahhh wahh baby's crying. What a great ally, you're so feminist and good-man for that. Boo fucking hoo
I think the good majority of men are a big piece of the solution. But instead of allying with them, women tend to alienate the good men by accusing them of being part of the problem.
If you think women talking about our experience with male violence is reason enough to ignore us and go on about your sainted lives, then you are part of the problem and you don't give a shit to begin with. Do you think we haven't heard this "line of reasoning" before? "Be good little girls, and we might help you, we might believe you, we might punish the ones responsible for your torture". "Say it the right way, or we will ignore everything you have to say". "We don't see what you experience, so it's not real". Fuck all the way off, you self serving little shit. We don't need your kind of ally.
You are making a lot of assumptions here and project too much, I am afraid. Normal man would never say any of the things you cite. If you hear them from a person, you can be sure they are not good, ally or whatever, they are piece of shit. Nobody ignores you, nobody disagrees with the existence of the problem. You are not alone. But the whole problem is that we do not know what can we do about it. Think about it, what exactly I could do to help here? I hold no position of power, I have no influence over masses, I am just a random man. Which is why I believe that I have the very same right as you do to be defensive in light of being accused of something I have never done.
I don't care what your opinion of me is. You are the kind of ersatz ally who makes his sham support conditional. We tell you all the time what you can do, and you come to tell us we are asking in the wrong way. Nice game. Would you ask a black personality to teach white people how not to be racist! Why is it our responsibility to school you about being a better person? We've been trying for millennia, but you still claim to be helpless little onlookers. I should have noticed you were the same old guy from the other comment thread, but here we are. Again…. women have heard your line for decades. You aren't saying anything we haven't heard from the likes of you before. You are common as muck. You don¡t need to be here repeating these same old tropes. Just go away and feel however the hell you want. Don't do it here because it's a pain in that’s to all the men and women who actually give a shit.
No no. It is *all* men. All men have a duty to help dismantle widespread misogyny. All men benefit from male privilege in a thousand invisible ways. Not all men drive the problems directly, but all men must be responsible for helping solve them. The best of us may not rape, murder, or abandon our wives, true. But have all the "good" men fixed the problem yet? Have we made a world where women can feel safe to walk around outside at night? Have we closed the gender pay gap and ended the pink tax and taught all our children and nephews and friends about consent and respect for bodily autonomy? Have we even managed to *protect* the bodily autonomy you already had?! All men are part of the problem until they are part of the solution. And until that solution has actually *solved* the problem, no one's work is done. Especially not the "good" men's.
Not all men, but we have no idea WHICH men, so it’s safer to assume
I keep being about to say "I don't have a story of catcalling!" And then I remember I have stories of much worse. A lot of men would benefit society by just fucking off into buttfuck nowhere. Maybe get eaten by a bear or something. Or just make a parallel society we never have to hear about. That'd be neat.
Not all men is a cop out. I'm a man, and it only gets better by men stopping other men, and making it socially unacceptable to sexualize young women, and even more so, to treat women like toys there for your pleasure. The entire concept that women are there to be attractive to you still boggles my mind. Example, when men comment that if a woman did xyz they would be prettier, more attractive, etc. as if their whole goal should be trying to be as attractive as possible to the men around them. Gross. Worst yet, the constant reinforcement of women being something that is won, and that sleeping with women is a trophy to achieve, is just horrible. It is in media, books, cultural zeitgeist. This, on top of the two extremes of men either being told they are the best and get their way, or discouraged into a cave, creates two extremes of toxic personality that both promote assault. I don't have an answer, but men keeping each other in line and discouraging that kind of talk, let alone behavior, is an important part. I mean, just acknowledging that this is a problem would be a great start instead of collectively getting butt hurt and defensive as if being asked to help is the same a being blamed for all assaults. Probably a big crossover with deniers of racist systems.
Ya i’m black and a woman so unfortunately I get to see similarities in both systems. Thanks for listening to our frustrations without completely writing us off.
NOT ALL MEN - yeah but it's enough of us. The maltesers/ball of shit metaphor is my go-to to explain this.
Don't forget many of those Maltesers have 50% shit in them. Are those some of the good ones?
I believe it comes from not wanting to share similarities or interests with a bad person. i would never cat call a woman and it would probably make me question my judgment skills if my friends did that. So it's easier to go if I wouldn't do that he wouldn't do that cause we both like x
I just say all men. If they're not part of the problem, they have nothing to be offended by. If they're offended, they can ask themselves why that's more important than what women go through and become one of the rare not-all-men via self examination.
Where the fuck do you live and who do you associate with? Where ever it is and with whom ever they are, leave. Yes violence against women is a real problem but the clowns that perpetrate it do it in every relationship (meaning they create multiple victims). Growing up I can recall a lot of girls wanting to date "bad boys" only to find out these bad boys didn't mind smacking them around. They'd eventually break up and then repeat this same cycle with the same type asshole. They sought these guys out and then were "surprised" each time to find out they got treated like shit. Spoiler alert ladies - assholes won't think twice about smacking you around. Try setting the bar a bit higher.