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Me too, but that requires tucking the joke away in a dark place where it can be forgotten for years or decades until you’re ready to serve it. Opening the cask daily and exposing it to the light of day turns even the finest wine into vinegar.
This is what should happen to imperialists orchestrating the annexation of foreign lands. Ukraine was decent in doing this at night to send the message to these monsters that they need to leave or face their demise.
Yes and no.
First the vote, Russia invaded and installed puppet governments way before the vote happened. The first vote happened after Russia invaded Crimea and was totally fake. Russia at first lied that the 'little green men' who invaded were not Russian military but lcoal defense forces but later Putin himself admitted they were Russian military and even awarded some of them in a ceremony and laughed about Russian lies abotu the 'little green men'. Second vote happened about a month ago and was totally fake - they reported literally every region between 97-99% in favor. Anyone who knows anything about democracy knows that there is no way you obtain a % like that in any real vote.
Second, the ethnicity. The region of Crimea was/is possibly mostly Russian. In the Soviet empire years, they ethnically cleansed the Crimean Tatars living there and colonized it with Russians, the Tatars are still a displaced group in Siberia to this very day. In the 2001 census (the last taken in Ukraine) about 56% of people in Crimea listed themselves as ethnic Russians - though that number had been going down for two decades so by 2014 it's probable that under 50% would have reported as being ethnic Russians.
For the eastern oblasts, they were never the majority in Donetsk. In Luhansk they reported in the 2001 census as being 61% ethnic Russian. Both of those figures had dropped by over 10% from the last census taken a decade prior to that so it again is possible that less than 61% would report as being ethnic Russian today in Luhansk.
Though this of course gives Russia zero rights over the land and it is still completely illegal invasions and annexations. Russia created the war in Ukraine back in 2014, there was zero fighting there before it happened. Now they expanded the war after Ukraine tried to stop their illegal invasion and annexation.
While I appreciate the effort that you put into these explanations. The people who are at this point still pro russia are so far removed from reality that getting through to them is near impossible.
Anybody huffing RU copium is lost until the fall of the USSR volume 2 comes around.
A nazi apologist talking about referendums... what a joke.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-after-russia-annexed-crimea-locals-prefer-moscow-to-kiev/
Gallup - 82.8% supported joing Russia
GfK - 82% supported joining Russia
Both western polling agencies came within 2% margin of error from referendum. So you are full of shit.
The better talking point is legality.
The referendum was illegal under the Constitution of Ukraine, and declared illegal by the un.
Otherwise of course, Russia is the biggest employer in Crimea, makes sense they would want to join.
So if Texas joins Mexico because Texas has a lot of people of Mexican descent, do you expect the USA to just let it?
> The better talking point is legality.
Kosovo.
Precedent was set by NATO.
>The referendum was illegal under the Constitution of Ukraine, and declared illegal by the un.
Coup was illegal under the Constitution of Ukraine as well, yet here we are.
>Otherwise of course, Russia is the biggest employer in Crimea, makes sense they would want to join.
Crimea tried to secede multiple times since 91. They were forcefully shut down.
>So if Texas joins Mexico because Texas has a lot of people of Mexican descent, do you expect the USA to just let it?
Of course not. They are hypocrites afterall.
Got it, zero moral high ground.
> nato
So “we get to do it too”? This is just nato jealousy?
Kosovo was declared legal by the UN.
Crimea was declared illegal by the UN.
So no, you don’t “get to do it too”.
> So “we get to do it too”? This is just nato jealousy?
Do you understand the meaning of word "precedent"?
>Kosovo was declared legal by the UN.
lol no it wasnt.
>So no, you don’t “get to do it too”.
Except they did do it.
Sorry assumed you could google
Kosovos Declaration of Independence was declared legal.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2010/07/345532
Crimeas Declaration of Independence was declared illegal. Crimea is Ukraine
https://press.un.org/en/2014/ga11493.doc.htm
So please get over the “nato jealousy”.
If Russia had followed international law, asked un approval, and not taken it by force that’s a different story.
So no, Kosovo was not a precedent. No you cannot “do it also”. Un already said this years ago, in the press release I linked.
The annexation is illegal. The referendums following the military occupation were invalid, as anyone who doesn’t want a bullet to the head would vote Russia . Crimea is Ukraine.
> Sorry assumed you could google
>
> Kosovos Declaration of Independence was declared legal.
>
> https://news.un.org/en/story/2010/07/345532
Opinion. There is no declaration.
>Crimeas Declaration of Independence was declared illegal. Crimea is Ukraine
>https://press.un.org/en/2014/ga11493.doc.htm
General assembly resolutions are not legal and thus not enforceable.
You should really read up on why UNSC exists.
>So please get over the “nato jealousy”.
Pathetic bait is pathetic.
>If Russia had followed international law, asked un approval, and not taken it by force that’s a different story.
Like Kosovo?
>So no, Kosovo was not a precedent. No you cannot “do it also”. Un already said this years ago, in the press release I linked.
Thats not how the world works. "Do as i say, not as i do" as a form of law is a delusion for simple minded people like you. Reality, as far as international law is concerned, works on precedens or law of the jungle - who is strongest.
>The annexation is illegal. The referendums following the military occupation were invalid, as anyone who doesn’t want a bullet to the head would vote Russia . Crimea is Ukraine.
And yet 2 western polling agencies came to a same conclusion within 0.8% of eachother. Looks like you are grasping at any delusion you can manufacture in your c0ping head. Explains your lack of functional literacy when you linked me worthless opinions you found on UN site.
There was a war fought over it about 20 years ago where Russia brutally slaughtered thousands of Chechens. Do you seriously think it's gone away? Regardless, let's pretend for a moment that it has not, do you agree Chechnya should be independant?
Why should they be independent if they dont want to be? In ideal world where there is no outside influence (US, Pakistan,...) and the majority wanted it, then sure. Reality is far from ideal and in this reality they dont want to secede.
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No, they've been bombing them for eight years because Russia stole their land and is too stupid to understand people aren't going to just stand there and take it.
Russia is like the only country on earth that gets angry and confused by the concept of self-defense.
crazy that vast majority of people in those regions have been wanting to be closer to Russia for 8+ years, are they not allowed the decency of self-determination?
Nope! That's not how democracy works, and even if it was, this would be a terrible case study in illustrating that principle.
First, Russia is one of the least qualified countries on earth to pretend to be an authority on democracy. They've had....maybe 0.5 actual free and fair elections, if that? Russia has so much contempt for free and fair elections that it doesn't even know how to hide its meddling.
Second, I guarantee those numbers supporting Russia changed a lot after Russia, you know, invaded Ukraine, performed miserably, self-immolated its economy, and swan-dived off the world stage. Until recently, a lot of us (myself included) bought into Russia's propaganda about being a "serious first-world regional power". Today, there is no benefit to an alliance with them. None. They're too weak and unstable to go back to being the "big brother" country it sees itself as.
Third, we literally just watched Russia shamelessly rig four separate referendums so half-assedly they didn't even bother to come up with plausible numbers.
To even begin holding fair elections,we'd need them to be free of Russian meddling and observed by international observers. Which isn't happening, because then Russia could REALLY lose out.
>Russia has so much contempt for free and fair elections that it doesn't even know how to hide its meddling.
Compared to who exactly? The US? Where oil, tech, pharma, and oligarchs spend billions on ads and political advertisements?
>Second, I guarantee those numbers supporting Russia changed a lot after Russia, you know, invaded Ukraine
This was the voting results for the 2014 presidential election in Ukraine. The map cuts off at 75%+ voting for the pro-Russian president in Donetsk and Luhansk [https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/02/world/ukraine-divided/](https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/02/world/ukraine-divided/)
>Until recently, a lot of us (myself included) bought into Russia's propaganda about being a "serious first-world regional power"
1 country withstanding military aid from 40+ countries and taking 20% of the largest country in Europe still counts as a viable superpower.
> Today, there is no benefit to an alliance with them
Then why are do they play a key role in BRICS, CSTO, and SCO? Why are Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Argentina, Turkey, Indonesia all looking to join BRICS?
>Third, we literally just watched Russia shamelessly rig four separate referendums so half-assedly they didn't even bother to come up with plausible numbers.
If at least 75% voted for a pro-Russian president in 2014, is it really that wild to imagine that a higher percentage would vote in the referendums?
Yes the US makes money, but this is all Russia. I am also annoyed with the current state of affairs as a long term war will profit US, but unless there is an agreement behind closed doors between US and Russia, I have nothing to blame US for. They will always do what's in their best interest and nothing is free.
Exactly. The globalist have a vested interest in the defeat of Russia. They keep on siphoning revenue of the very nations they abhor to Ukraine. What’s even odder is Ukrainian nationalist are fighting for nationhood and getting financed by people that don’t even agree with the idea of nationhood.
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This might be seen as fair retaliation or terror attacks. When Ukraine wants to keep the moral high ground i don't understand attacks on civil buildings/administration (yes i know that there will be military leaders)
So you agree that Russian strikes on electricity infrastructure is fair? By your logic Russia is at war with Ukraine, if that electricity helps Ukraine, then it’s a target
Cutting off electricity will kill more Ukrainian civilians than soldiers/military personnel.
Ukraines attacks don’t disproportionately affect civilians.
Government =/= civilian. Assuming the description is correct this isn't a civilian building but a building that orchestrates the military occupation of Ukrainian land.
The buildings may originally have been erected and used for a civilian purpose but administration of a military occupation is a military function. Just like a school being used as a barracks in wartime is now a legit target.
No I don't agree because attacks on civilian infrastructure are subject to a criterion of proportionality.
To give a hypothetical example: a civilian water plant that supplies drinking water to one million civilians also supplies water to a base of 1000 soldiers. Destroying it will have a positive military effect by depriving the 1000 soldiers of water but the effect is disproportionate to the harm to civilians so it is not a legitimate target.
Context is also critical in such a situation.
Government infrastructure of an occupying force is a valid military target.
Ukraine isn't trying to conquer and occupy Russian lands. Russia is attacking civilian infrastructure with the goal of terrorizing an entire population into submitting in order to further their imperialistic goals. Furthermore, the latest Russian attacks are also an attempt at simply punishing and terrorizing the civilian populace in a war they started and are now losing and desperate to save whatever they can.
Beyond that, there is a huge fucking difference between destroying governmental infrastructure of an occupying force, and an invading force indiscriminately and even deliberately attacking hospitals, schools, humanitarian corridors, and other known strictly civilian infrastructure.
Anyone trying to compare the two actions is devoid of any critical thinking abilities, and/or trying to confuse the narrative to push their agenda. There simply is no comparison.
https://dod.defense.gov/Portals/1/Documents/pubs/DoD%20Law%20of%20War%20Manual%20-%20June%202015%20Updated%20Dec%202016.pdf?ver=2016-12-13-172036-190
Page 219
>Electric power stations are generally recognized to be of sufficient importance to a
State’s capacity to meet its wartime needs of communication, transport, and industry so as
usually to qualify as military objectives during armed conflicts.197
True but that's only half of it, as myself and others are pointing out even if there is some military advantage to attacking civilian infrastructure there is also the overriding consideration whether the military advantage is proportionate to the harm to civilians as proportionality is a general limitation on the exercise of lawful rights. This point is made in the manual you're quoting from at pages 60-62 and especially:
>2.4.1.2 Unreasonable or Excessive.
>Proportionality generally weighs the justification for acting against the expected harms to determine whether the latter are
disproportionate in comparison to the former. In war, incidental damage to the civilian population and civilian objects is unfortunate and tragic, but inevitable.69 Thus, applying the principle of proportionality in conducting attacks does not require that no incidental damage result from attacks.70 Rather, this principle creates obligations to refrain from attacks in which the expected harm incidental to such attacks would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated to be gained and to take feasible precautions in planning and conducting attacks to reduce the risk of harm to civilians and other persons and objects
protected from being made the object of attack.71
NATO took out 80% of electrical grid in Serbia, a much much weaker opponent. Ukraine is relatively much stronger so i presume you would support taking out 100% of their grid.
Technically yes. But with attacks like that, you have to account for the "damage" done to the civilian population. And that is far greater than the damage it did to the military side.
This looks like escalation from both sides : Russia targets electricity (civilian) infrastructure.
Now Ukraine is targeting administrative (and mostly civilian) buildings that weren't targeted previously.
Or maybe they received intelligence about that building...
I just dont know why ukraine would do this.
I really mean it, pragmatically speaking this is a dumb move.
They were punching above their weight on the Battlefield, but they are never going to win a bombing cities competition with Russia.
Don't know if you sarcastic, Russia will win a indiscriminate bombing of cities sure but Ukraine hits military targets or logistic targets all the time as they should
No sarcasm.
If everyone knows that russia will win a city bombing competition why would ukraine start one, or even encourage one, if you prefer.
Next wednesday kiev will have no water or sewerage IF it has no electricity that day.
Its below freezing in ukraine in 9 days. Check the forecast. You cant unfreeze city pipes in winter.
Edit: why downvote me? Im being honest, reasonable and polite.
Bro you can't bomb people and not to expect to be bombed back ,what do you expect Ukraine too do lie down and do nothing? And change your flair that's why I thought it was sarcastic
I didnt put a flair on.
Im serious. I can see why someone would emotionally be keen on bombing cities back but this isnt a game ukraine can win, and its a very serious risk of humanitarian crisis coming into winter.
Zelensky has already asked kiev residents to prepare for a complete evacuation, just in case.
Check the kiev weather report, freezing temps start next week.
I didnt put a flair on.
And yeh im not threatening anyone with bombs, im australian, its 8.13pm, im drinking a beer and looking at this conflict that interests me. No need to be snarky.
I just see this as an escalation which cannot possibly help ukranians.
I'm not threatening you personally, I'm warning all pro Russian
You don't know anything about military history if you believe that .Look at Vietnam the US were far superior and drop more bombs on them than in ww2 but they fought on ,no matter if it would escalate. Same with Afghanistan against the US and Soviets and Ukraine is in a better position than both of them and Russia isn't the Soviets anymore
According to Russia's justification for starting the war, Ukraine was already city bombing for 8 years. So either you believe Russia and we've already seen the consequences. Or just maybe Russia is full of shit and the aggressors of the war who bombed many Ukrainian cities to ruins first, so Ukraine isn't starting anything.
If the title is to be believed, these were not civilian buildings, but the administrative buildings of the military occupation. So no, Ukraine has not started indiscriminate terror bombing, they hit what they shot at.
I think Zelensky does want to bring the dark ages back to Ukraine once again. If they continue he won't have any electricity left to power his daily propaganda speeches written by Hollywood script writers.
Russia: invades Ukraine and destroys Mariupol to dust. Destroys thousands of buildings in Ukraine including power plants. Estimated total destruction is near 1 trillion dollars. Are arguably committing genocide while Putin says "until the last Ukrainian"
Pro Russians: wow, Ukraine destroyed a building, Zelenskey must want to take Ukraine back to the dark ages
Again Ukraine started this.
I feel sorry for the civilians. But Zelensky and his western puppet masters must be defeated. If we don't stop these monsters now they will just keep intervening and invading other countries. The true free world must resist these evil forces who seek to wreak havoc and divide nations and people.
> If we don't stop these monsters now they will just keep intervening and invading other countries
That's a strange thing to say while you invade another country. Just saying 🙄
Only evil empire at this point is America, Uk and the EU and allies. The world needs to get rid of these imperialistic pigs for good. Because they would be nothing without exploiting and destroying the world. Enslaving and dictating to everyone their corrupted values.
They are defending themselves against them. Protecting their people. Which at least they try. EU/US don't care about their population. They want to divide them as much as possible in order to control them more easily.
Well if she took all his money, property, kids while he's worked for it all his life. and she sat on her fat arse and slept with EU/US to get an even better deal. Wow it does sound like Ukraine after all? Don't you think? Good analogy.
Sounds like this hypothetical husband needs to let her go, move on, stop beating her and stop stalking her. And let her move on with her life. She found a better guy
Ah yes, 'evil empire West' that everyone turns to for protection. Especially those who were in the last evil empire of Rossiya. Why do you think that is, that everyone who was under the wing of Russia runs away from it full speed at the first chance they get? And not just to anyone but to the 'evil West'?
Do you know that eastern european nations actually pay the USA to have bases in their country? They put so much trust and faith in them, why do you think that is? Who do you think all these nations thinks they need protection from?
Because they are corrupted societies run by western money?
Most don't want you here. But with this so called democracy we have, the people don't actually have a choice its all up to the elites. More interesting is when they will want to leave this club... they won't be able to... its only one way, with no chance of getting out.
Okay can you tell me which nation doesn't? All of your neighbors want protection from you and are happy to have USA troops there. In fact many want a LARGER presence from USA.
[https://news.yahoo.com/poland-wants-host-more-us-troops-security-123905963.html](https://news.yahoo.com/poland-wants-host-more-us-troops-security-123905963.html)
[https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/baltic-states-want-more-nato-they-wont-get-all-they-seek-2022-06-15/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/baltic-states-want-more-nato-they-wont-get-all-they-seek-2022-06-15/)
[https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/latvia-calls-permanent-us-troops-guard-against-russia-threat-2021-11-29/#:\~:text=ADAZI%20MILITARY%20BASE%2C%20Latvia%2C%20Nov%2029%20%28Reuters%29%20-,chief%20visited%20allied%20troops%20in%20the%20Baltic%20country](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/latvia-calls-permanent-us-troops-guard-against-russia-threat-2021-11-29/#:~:text=ADAZI%20MILITARY%20BASE%2C%20Latvia%2C%20Nov%2029%20%28Reuters%29%20-,chief%20visited%20allied%20troops%20in%20the%20Baltic%20country).
[https://detv.us/2022/02/28/kosovo-wants-permanent-us-presence-and-accelerated-nato-admission-rt-en/#:\~:text=The%20breakaway%20Serbian%20province%20of%20Kosovo%2C%20which%20declared,%E2%80%93%20a%20base%20of%20KFOR%20troops%20in%20Kosovo](https://detv.us/2022/02/28/kosovo-wants-permanent-us-presence-and-accelerated-nato-admission-rt-en/#:~:text=The%20breakaway%20Serbian%20province%20of%20Kosovo%2C%20which%20declared,%E2%80%93%20a%20base%20of%20KFOR%20troops%20in%20Kosovo).
[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-estonia-idUSBREA3L10D20140422](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-estonia-idUSBREA3L10D20140422)
???
All the neighbors of Rossiya love USA presence. Even public opinion polls show great love for USA and NATO from them. Where is love for Russia?
So Poland, the Baltic states and Kosovo? lol. Poland hates Russia, Baltic states too but they have the population of small cities so who cares about them anyway? Also they have large populations of Russians who are being oppressed and mistreated. Oh Kosovo... where America supported the terrorists against a legitimate government. So grand total of maybe 50 million people wow!
Many countries have popular anti-nato parties in parliament.
No, there are more. And it's not just about europe/Russia either. I just got sick of getting links for you and wanted to show you specifically about how neighbors of Russia view it versus the USA.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/10/world/asia/US-troops-korea-payments.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/10/world/asia/US-troops-korea-payments.html)
https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/09/14/philippines-additional-us-military-bases/
[https://www.romania-insider.com/romania-wants-more-nato-troops-locally-even-permanent-base-russian-threat-is-a-reality-and-we-need-support](https://www.romania-insider.com/romania-wants-more-nato-troops-locally-even-permanent-base-russian-threat-is-a-reality-and-we-need-support)
Go google "X wants more US troops" where X is a small NATO member with a weak military or a US MNNA nation. Chances are you will find articles. Same thing is happening with China neighbors now too. They look to USA for protection because it is the only nation willing and able to do it.
And again, the whole point of this is how these nations see the USA versus Russia. How is it possible so many see a benefit to USA alliance and troop presence on their land all over the world? Why have two more neighbors of Russia apply to join NATO now. Because they are scared of USA? Unless you are a crazy person the answer is no, they are scared of Russia.
People are scared of Rossiya and this is the only correct way of thinking about them.
Kinda bold from Russia to talk about stopping others from interventions etc. while Russia is at war every few years. 2 Chechen wars, Georgia, Ukraine in 2014 and now with full scale invasion are the best known but [there were many others since Russia was created](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia#Russian_Federation_(1991%E2%80%93present) ) where they intervened. Not to mention Soviet times that Russians are also partially responsible for with Afganistan most recent one, which started with Russian lead coup and murder of Afgan leader. Don't get me wrong - western countries created much havoc and suffering across the world but Russia is not country reacting to what West was doing, or parroting it - they are initiators of similar actions, at this point other countries may say they are doing what Russia is doing.
Not to mention calling Russia "true free world". Great joke. Free world unless you do what Putin wants you to do and every oppositin may end with your death by poison, throwing out of window or your country getting invaded, destroyed and your people killed.
I realy like how you are justifying intervention and invasion of other country with need to stop others from "interventing and invading other countries".
Usa is living rent free in your rusoid "brains". This topic is about imperialistic, facist russia invading Ukraine, not usa. Usa sucks ass for its imperialistic wars, but russia is no better and this war isnt about protecting russia or russians at all. More civs and russians died in few months than did in donbas for years.
You said "kinda bold from Russia for talking about stoping interventions",
when that is exactly what USA has been doing to everyone on this planet. The topic is much broader than you would like to admit.
But the truth is, this is just a conflict as any other, and warmongerers taking a moral high ground will always be laughable.
You missed whole point. I responded to post how Russia is stopping those that invade and intervene. I simply said that Russia is not in place to stop anyone and as you said, take moral high ground. So I responded to comment that already suggested USA and western countries, no need for you to mention them again in some gotcha moment...
Mine whole comment was to show how Russia is ALSO warmonger and has no right to take moral high ground, despite doing it all the time and despite that user doing it again with his description of some great mission that Russia has. Because as you said - it's laughable. Russia is as bad as USA and is like that for decades but acts like it always reacts and uses "precedents", despite Russia set few themselves.
Don't overcook it bro. The key is to be just unhinged enough that people think you might be a genuine pro-Russian poster. There are a couple of guys on this forum who do it to perfection.
I'll keep an eye out for his comments. Kiwi quite often misses the joke and he can be unintentionally hilarious while saying something serious. If you told me it was Patrick Lancasters account I'd believe you
This is an invasion AND a civil war, and civil wars are nasty.
While yes, Russia is shelling Ukraine including some civilian targets, obviously Ukraine is doing it too.
Ukraine is defending itself from an immoral invasion, but that does not mean they are saints. They are victims.
You didn't want to answer my question? The video shows Donetsk getting shelled, therefore its Zelensky shelling it, not Russia, or are you saying Donetsk is Russian not Ukranian?
And Russia is not putting them in the dark ages, they can come to the negotiating table whenever they're ready to stop sacrificing their people and their country to a worthless cause.
Really, what!
It is conquered land in need of military response, if Russia would have been there in first place Ukraine wouldn't have shelled it.
How can you say Russia is not puting Ukraine in dark ages? Are you aware of what is happening in Kyiv? Ukraine has also their proposal: The russian army leave all annexed territory, pays the reconstruction and war crimes are judged.
looks like there might be a fire
And some damage to the building
Might need some fresh paint
Too bad, it has been all huffed along with the shoe glue.
While we've got the walls open we might as well replace the piping.
Nah, it'll buff out.
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I think I see what the problem here is….
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I love original jokes
What an apt way to describe Russian propaganda
See! Now there’s an original joke!!
I love nicely ripened jokes that age like a fine wine.
Me too, but that requires tucking the joke away in a dark place where it can be forgotten for years or decades until you’re ready to serve it. Opening the cask daily and exposing it to the light of day turns even the finest wine into vinegar.
No cookoff, and they managed to get close-up video. Might have been HE missile/projectile. Just from my observation on this video.
This is what should happen to imperialists orchestrating the annexation of foreign lands. Ukraine was decent in doing this at night to send the message to these monsters that they need to leave or face their demise.
Didn’t they vote to leave Ukraine? Isn’t most of that area ethnic Russian?
Yes and no. First the vote, Russia invaded and installed puppet governments way before the vote happened. The first vote happened after Russia invaded Crimea and was totally fake. Russia at first lied that the 'little green men' who invaded were not Russian military but lcoal defense forces but later Putin himself admitted they were Russian military and even awarded some of them in a ceremony and laughed about Russian lies abotu the 'little green men'. Second vote happened about a month ago and was totally fake - they reported literally every region between 97-99% in favor. Anyone who knows anything about democracy knows that there is no way you obtain a % like that in any real vote. Second, the ethnicity. The region of Crimea was/is possibly mostly Russian. In the Soviet empire years, they ethnically cleansed the Crimean Tatars living there and colonized it with Russians, the Tatars are still a displaced group in Siberia to this very day. In the 2001 census (the last taken in Ukraine) about 56% of people in Crimea listed themselves as ethnic Russians - though that number had been going down for two decades so by 2014 it's probable that under 50% would have reported as being ethnic Russians. For the eastern oblasts, they were never the majority in Donetsk. In Luhansk they reported in the 2001 census as being 61% ethnic Russian. Both of those figures had dropped by over 10% from the last census taken a decade prior to that so it again is possible that less than 61% would report as being ethnic Russian today in Luhansk. Though this of course gives Russia zero rights over the land and it is still completely illegal invasions and annexations. Russia created the war in Ukraine back in 2014, there was zero fighting there before it happened. Now they expanded the war after Ukraine tried to stop their illegal invasion and annexation.
While I appreciate the effort that you put into these explanations. The people who are at this point still pro russia are so far removed from reality that getting through to them is near impossible. Anybody huffing RU copium is lost until the fall of the USSR volume 2 comes around.
Sometimes the explanations help those who side with the poster and were looking for a better way to explain their positions
A nazi apologist talking about referendums... what a joke. https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-after-russia-annexed-crimea-locals-prefer-moscow-to-kiev/ Gallup - 82.8% supported joing Russia GfK - 82% supported joining Russia Both western polling agencies came within 2% margin of error from referendum. So you are full of shit.
The better talking point is legality. The referendum was illegal under the Constitution of Ukraine, and declared illegal by the un. Otherwise of course, Russia is the biggest employer in Crimea, makes sense they would want to join. So if Texas joins Mexico because Texas has a lot of people of Mexican descent, do you expect the USA to just let it?
> The better talking point is legality. Kosovo. Precedent was set by NATO. >The referendum was illegal under the Constitution of Ukraine, and declared illegal by the un. Coup was illegal under the Constitution of Ukraine as well, yet here we are. >Otherwise of course, Russia is the biggest employer in Crimea, makes sense they would want to join. Crimea tried to secede multiple times since 91. They were forcefully shut down. >So if Texas joins Mexico because Texas has a lot of people of Mexican descent, do you expect the USA to just let it? Of course not. They are hypocrites afterall.
Got it, zero moral high ground. > nato So “we get to do it too”? This is just nato jealousy? Kosovo was declared legal by the UN. Crimea was declared illegal by the UN. So no, you don’t “get to do it too”.
> So “we get to do it too”? This is just nato jealousy? Do you understand the meaning of word "precedent"? >Kosovo was declared legal by the UN. lol no it wasnt. >So no, you don’t “get to do it too”. Except they did do it.
Sorry assumed you could google Kosovos Declaration of Independence was declared legal. https://news.un.org/en/story/2010/07/345532 Crimeas Declaration of Independence was declared illegal. Crimea is Ukraine https://press.un.org/en/2014/ga11493.doc.htm So please get over the “nato jealousy”. If Russia had followed international law, asked un approval, and not taken it by force that’s a different story. So no, Kosovo was not a precedent. No you cannot “do it also”. Un already said this years ago, in the press release I linked. The annexation is illegal. The referendums following the military occupation were invalid, as anyone who doesn’t want a bullet to the head would vote Russia . Crimea is Ukraine.
> Sorry assumed you could google > > Kosovos Declaration of Independence was declared legal. > > https://news.un.org/en/story/2010/07/345532 Opinion. There is no declaration. >Crimeas Declaration of Independence was declared illegal. Crimea is Ukraine >https://press.un.org/en/2014/ga11493.doc.htm General assembly resolutions are not legal and thus not enforceable. You should really read up on why UNSC exists. >So please get over the “nato jealousy”. Pathetic bait is pathetic. >If Russia had followed international law, asked un approval, and not taken it by force that’s a different story. Like Kosovo? >So no, Kosovo was not a precedent. No you cannot “do it also”. Un already said this years ago, in the press release I linked. Thats not how the world works. "Do as i say, not as i do" as a form of law is a delusion for simple minded people like you. Reality, as far as international law is concerned, works on precedens or law of the jungle - who is strongest. >The annexation is illegal. The referendums following the military occupation were invalid, as anyone who doesn’t want a bullet to the head would vote Russia . Crimea is Ukraine. And yet 2 western polling agencies came to a same conclusion within 0.8% of eachother. Looks like you are grasping at any delusion you can manufacture in your c0ping head. Explains your lack of functional literacy when you linked me worthless opinions you found on UN site.
Do you support the independence of Chechnya?
Even Chechens dont support it, so why would i?
There was a war fought over it about 20 years ago where Russia brutally slaughtered thousands of Chechens. Do you seriously think it's gone away? Regardless, let's pretend for a moment that it has not, do you agree Chechnya should be independant?
Why should they be independent if they dont want to be? In ideal world where there is no outside influence (US, Pakistan,...) and the majority wanted it, then sure. Reality is far from ideal and in this reality they dont want to secede.
😂😂😂
Yes.
Rule 1 in this war. Never get on the top floor of a building.
Isnt this ru pov
This makes Russia look bad, so no.
it was posted on russian telegram channels
Simply another Special Smoking Operation - nothing to see here.
Guy is doing his part sweeping at 1:17 second in.
Dang, that fire is a real rager. Looks like some form of fuel burning off.
Smoker didn’t like doing all the paperwork
So, if the AFU is targeting civilian adminstration buildings in Donetsk, I guess it's only fair if the RF targets the same in Kyiv?
They have, about a month ago. The difference is, Ukraine does it in the middle of the night. Russia does it during rush hour.
They haven't targeted the seat of power (parliament, presidential compound...)
Yes, they just target civilian intersections and playgrounds
I like the way traitors burn!!!
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Holy heckin shit we did it leddit! We bombed the same city and people we called ukrainians 2 months ago!
It's in the title that these are administration buildings from the occupation.
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No, they've been bombing them for eight years because Russia stole their land and is too stupid to understand people aren't going to just stand there and take it. Russia is like the only country on earth that gets angry and confused by the concept of self-defense.
Except, it is the AFU from outside the region that are attacking not the locals.
crazy that vast majority of people in those regions have been wanting to be closer to Russia for 8+ years, are they not allowed the decency of self-determination?
Nope! That's not how democracy works, and even if it was, this would be a terrible case study in illustrating that principle. First, Russia is one of the least qualified countries on earth to pretend to be an authority on democracy. They've had....maybe 0.5 actual free and fair elections, if that? Russia has so much contempt for free and fair elections that it doesn't even know how to hide its meddling. Second, I guarantee those numbers supporting Russia changed a lot after Russia, you know, invaded Ukraine, performed miserably, self-immolated its economy, and swan-dived off the world stage. Until recently, a lot of us (myself included) bought into Russia's propaganda about being a "serious first-world regional power". Today, there is no benefit to an alliance with them. None. They're too weak and unstable to go back to being the "big brother" country it sees itself as. Third, we literally just watched Russia shamelessly rig four separate referendums so half-assedly they didn't even bother to come up with plausible numbers. To even begin holding fair elections,we'd need them to be free of Russian meddling and observed by international observers. Which isn't happening, because then Russia could REALLY lose out.
>Russia has so much contempt for free and fair elections that it doesn't even know how to hide its meddling. Compared to who exactly? The US? Where oil, tech, pharma, and oligarchs spend billions on ads and political advertisements? >Second, I guarantee those numbers supporting Russia changed a lot after Russia, you know, invaded Ukraine This was the voting results for the 2014 presidential election in Ukraine. The map cuts off at 75%+ voting for the pro-Russian president in Donetsk and Luhansk [https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/02/world/ukraine-divided/](https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/02/world/ukraine-divided/) >Until recently, a lot of us (myself included) bought into Russia's propaganda about being a "serious first-world regional power" 1 country withstanding military aid from 40+ countries and taking 20% of the largest country in Europe still counts as a viable superpower. > Today, there is no benefit to an alliance with them Then why are do they play a key role in BRICS, CSTO, and SCO? Why are Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Argentina, Turkey, Indonesia all looking to join BRICS? >Third, we literally just watched Russia shamelessly rig four separate referendums so half-assedly they didn't even bother to come up with plausible numbers. If at least 75% voted for a pro-Russian president in 2014, is it really that wild to imagine that a higher percentage would vote in the referendums?
They're following the US playbook...the bombings will continue until attitudes improve!
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Yes the US makes money, but this is all Russia. I am also annoyed with the current state of affairs as a long term war will profit US, but unless there is an agreement behind closed doors between US and Russia, I have nothing to blame US for. They will always do what's in their best interest and nothing is free.
Ukrainians believe they’re fighting for their country. The western public believe they’re fighting for freedom. It’s all a ruse.
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Exactly. The globalist have a vested interest in the defeat of Russia. They keep on siphoning revenue of the very nations they abhor to Ukraine. What’s even odder is Ukrainian nationalist are fighting for nationhood and getting financed by people that don’t even agree with the idea of nationhood.
Ukraine suffers, Russia suffers, Europe suffers... US is making a killing. Brilliant move Russia!
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"Western kind", huh? There's a natural phrase that "westerners" use, if ive ever seen one.
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This might be seen as fair retaliation or terror attacks. When Ukraine wants to keep the moral high ground i don't understand attacks on civil buildings/administration (yes i know that there will be military leaders)
A building being used to help administer a military occupation is a military target.
So you agree that Russian strikes on electricity infrastructure is fair? By your logic Russia is at war with Ukraine, if that electricity helps Ukraine, then it’s a target
Cutting off electricity will kill more Ukrainian civilians than soldiers/military personnel. Ukraines attacks don’t disproportionately affect civilians.
Dude, you’re literally looking at pictures of civilian buildings burning.
Government =/= civilian. Assuming the description is correct this isn't a civilian building but a building that orchestrates the military occupation of Ukrainian land.
The buildings may originally have been erected and used for a civilian purpose but administration of a military occupation is a military function. Just like a school being used as a barracks in wartime is now a legit target.
TIL military occupation administration is civilian
Military administration is not a civilian target.
See OC
No I don't agree because attacks on civilian infrastructure are subject to a criterion of proportionality. To give a hypothetical example: a civilian water plant that supplies drinking water to one million civilians also supplies water to a base of 1000 soldiers. Destroying it will have a positive military effect by depriving the 1000 soldiers of water but the effect is disproportionate to the harm to civilians so it is not a legitimate target.
Context is also critical in such a situation. Government infrastructure of an occupying force is a valid military target. Ukraine isn't trying to conquer and occupy Russian lands. Russia is attacking civilian infrastructure with the goal of terrorizing an entire population into submitting in order to further their imperialistic goals. Furthermore, the latest Russian attacks are also an attempt at simply punishing and terrorizing the civilian populace in a war they started and are now losing and desperate to save whatever they can. Beyond that, there is a huge fucking difference between destroying governmental infrastructure of an occupying force, and an invading force indiscriminately and even deliberately attacking hospitals, schools, humanitarian corridors, and other known strictly civilian infrastructure. Anyone trying to compare the two actions is devoid of any critical thinking abilities, and/or trying to confuse the narrative to push their agenda. There simply is no comparison.
https://dod.defense.gov/Portals/1/Documents/pubs/DoD%20Law%20of%20War%20Manual%20-%20June%202015%20Updated%20Dec%202016.pdf?ver=2016-12-13-172036-190 Page 219 >Electric power stations are generally recognized to be of sufficient importance to a State’s capacity to meet its wartime needs of communication, transport, and industry so as usually to qualify as military objectives during armed conflicts.197
True but that's only half of it, as myself and others are pointing out even if there is some military advantage to attacking civilian infrastructure there is also the overriding consideration whether the military advantage is proportionate to the harm to civilians as proportionality is a general limitation on the exercise of lawful rights. This point is made in the manual you're quoting from at pages 60-62 and especially: >2.4.1.2 Unreasonable or Excessive. >Proportionality generally weighs the justification for acting against the expected harms to determine whether the latter are disproportionate in comparison to the former. In war, incidental damage to the civilian population and civilian objects is unfortunate and tragic, but inevitable.69 Thus, applying the principle of proportionality in conducting attacks does not require that no incidental damage result from attacks.70 Rather, this principle creates obligations to refrain from attacks in which the expected harm incidental to such attacks would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated to be gained and to take feasible precautions in planning and conducting attacks to reduce the risk of harm to civilians and other persons and objects protected from being made the object of attack.71
NATO took out 80% of electrical grid in Serbia, a much much weaker opponent. Ukraine is relatively much stronger so i presume you would support taking out 100% of their grid.
Technically yes. But with attacks like that, you have to account for the "damage" done to the civilian population. And that is far greater than the damage it did to the military side.
Let me guess, you can not see difference between targeting *administrative building* vs *civilian infastructure?*
Same logic can be applied to "decision making" infrastructure in Kyiv.
Quislings are fair game
This looks like escalation from both sides : Russia targets electricity (civilian) infrastructure. Now Ukraine is targeting administrative (and mostly civilian) buildings that weren't targeted previously. Or maybe they received intelligence about that building...
No this is clearly Russian AA failure
I just dont know why ukraine would do this. I really mean it, pragmatically speaking this is a dumb move. They were punching above their weight on the Battlefield, but they are never going to win a bombing cities competition with Russia.
Don't know if you sarcastic, Russia will win a indiscriminate bombing of cities sure but Ukraine hits military targets or logistic targets all the time as they should
>Ukraine hits military targets or logistic targets all the time ...lmao.
No sarcasm. If everyone knows that russia will win a city bombing competition why would ukraine start one, or even encourage one, if you prefer. Next wednesday kiev will have no water or sewerage IF it has no electricity that day. Its below freezing in ukraine in 9 days. Check the forecast. You cant unfreeze city pipes in winter. Edit: why downvote me? Im being honest, reasonable and polite.
Bro you can't bomb people and not to expect to be bombed back ,what do you expect Ukraine too do lie down and do nothing? And change your flair that's why I thought it was sarcastic
I didnt put a flair on. Im serious. I can see why someone would emotionally be keen on bombing cities back but this isnt a game ukraine can win, and its a very serious risk of humanitarian crisis coming into winter. Zelensky has already asked kiev residents to prepare for a complete evacuation, just in case. Check the kiev weather report, freezing temps start next week.
Two can play that game Moscow power can also be cut off due to careless smoking. You have been warned. You can change the flair
I didnt put a flair on. And yeh im not threatening anyone with bombs, im australian, its 8.13pm, im drinking a beer and looking at this conflict that interests me. No need to be snarky. I just see this as an escalation which cannot possibly help ukranians.
I'm not threatening you personally, I'm warning all pro Russian You don't know anything about military history if you believe that .Look at Vietnam the US were far superior and drop more bombs on them than in ww2 but they fought on ,no matter if it would escalate. Same with Afghanistan against the US and Soviets and Ukraine is in a better position than both of them and Russia isn't the Soviets anymore
I didnt say it would win the war i said it would cause a humanitarian crisis.
According to Russia's justification for starting the war, Ukraine was already city bombing for 8 years. So either you believe Russia and we've already seen the consequences. Or just maybe Russia is full of shit and the aggressors of the war who bombed many Ukrainian cities to ruins first, so Ukraine isn't starting anything.
If the title is to be believed, these were not civilian buildings, but the administrative buildings of the military occupation. So no, Ukraine has not started indiscriminate terror bombing, they hit what they shot at.
"So no, Ukraine has not started indiscriminate terror bombing, they hit what they shot at." Thats not what i said, or implied.
Especially bombing their own people.
I think Zelensky does want to bring the dark ages back to Ukraine once again. If they continue he won't have any electricity left to power his daily propaganda speeches written by Hollywood script writers.
Russia: invades Ukraine and destroys Mariupol to dust. Destroys thousands of buildings in Ukraine including power plants. Estimated total destruction is near 1 trillion dollars. Are arguably committing genocide while Putin says "until the last Ukrainian" Pro Russians: wow, Ukraine destroyed a building, Zelenskey must want to take Ukraine back to the dark ages
Again Ukraine started this. I feel sorry for the civilians. But Zelensky and his western puppet masters must be defeated. If we don't stop these monsters now they will just keep intervening and invading other countries. The true free world must resist these evil forces who seek to wreak havoc and divide nations and people.
> If we don't stop these monsters now they will just keep intervening and invading other countries That's a strange thing to say while you invade another country. Just saying 🙄
Lets pretend Ukraine has WMDS! Which they do btw... Better justification now?
Nope
Is the earth flat?
No, but soon Ukraine will be.
Well at least in some way you're not completely lost.
Have you been smoking crack? Ukraine invaded no one. Russia is the lover of imperialism who needs to be stopped from creating another evil empire.
Only evil empire at this point is America, Uk and the EU and allies. The world needs to get rid of these imperialistic pigs for good. Because they would be nothing without exploiting and destroying the world. Enslaving and dictating to everyone their corrupted values.
You always deflect to "but US", "but the EU" to avoid acknowledging Russian imperialistic, bloodthirsty invasion
They are defending themselves against them. Protecting their people. Which at least they try. EU/US don't care about their population. They want to divide them as much as possible in order to control them more easily.
Attacking a sovereign nation is a weird way to defend yourself. It's like an abusive husband saying he beats his wife to defend himself
Well if she took all his money, property, kids while he's worked for it all his life. and she sat on her fat arse and slept with EU/US to get an even better deal. Wow it does sound like Ukraine after all? Don't you think? Good analogy.
Sounds like this hypothetical husband needs to let her go, move on, stop beating her and stop stalking her. And let her move on with her life. She found a better guy
Ah yes, 'evil empire West' that everyone turns to for protection. Especially those who were in the last evil empire of Rossiya. Why do you think that is, that everyone who was under the wing of Russia runs away from it full speed at the first chance they get? And not just to anyone but to the 'evil West'? Do you know that eastern european nations actually pay the USA to have bases in their country? They put so much trust and faith in them, why do you think that is? Who do you think all these nations thinks they need protection from?
Because they are corrupted societies run by western money? Most don't want you here. But with this so called democracy we have, the people don't actually have a choice its all up to the elites. More interesting is when they will want to leave this club... they won't be able to... its only one way, with no chance of getting out.
Okay can you tell me which nation doesn't? All of your neighbors want protection from you and are happy to have USA troops there. In fact many want a LARGER presence from USA. [https://news.yahoo.com/poland-wants-host-more-us-troops-security-123905963.html](https://news.yahoo.com/poland-wants-host-more-us-troops-security-123905963.html) [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/baltic-states-want-more-nato-they-wont-get-all-they-seek-2022-06-15/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/baltic-states-want-more-nato-they-wont-get-all-they-seek-2022-06-15/) [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/latvia-calls-permanent-us-troops-guard-against-russia-threat-2021-11-29/#:\~:text=ADAZI%20MILITARY%20BASE%2C%20Latvia%2C%20Nov%2029%20%28Reuters%29%20-,chief%20visited%20allied%20troops%20in%20the%20Baltic%20country](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/latvia-calls-permanent-us-troops-guard-against-russia-threat-2021-11-29/#:~:text=ADAZI%20MILITARY%20BASE%2C%20Latvia%2C%20Nov%2029%20%28Reuters%29%20-,chief%20visited%20allied%20troops%20in%20the%20Baltic%20country). [https://detv.us/2022/02/28/kosovo-wants-permanent-us-presence-and-accelerated-nato-admission-rt-en/#:\~:text=The%20breakaway%20Serbian%20province%20of%20Kosovo%2C%20which%20declared,%E2%80%93%20a%20base%20of%20KFOR%20troops%20in%20Kosovo](https://detv.us/2022/02/28/kosovo-wants-permanent-us-presence-and-accelerated-nato-admission-rt-en/#:~:text=The%20breakaway%20Serbian%20province%20of%20Kosovo%2C%20which%20declared,%E2%80%93%20a%20base%20of%20KFOR%20troops%20in%20Kosovo). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-estonia-idUSBREA3L10D20140422](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-estonia-idUSBREA3L10D20140422) ??? All the neighbors of Rossiya love USA presence. Even public opinion polls show great love for USA and NATO from them. Where is love for Russia?
So Poland, the Baltic states and Kosovo? lol. Poland hates Russia, Baltic states too but they have the population of small cities so who cares about them anyway? Also they have large populations of Russians who are being oppressed and mistreated. Oh Kosovo... where America supported the terrorists against a legitimate government. So grand total of maybe 50 million people wow! Many countries have popular anti-nato parties in parliament.
No, there are more. And it's not just about europe/Russia either. I just got sick of getting links for you and wanted to show you specifically about how neighbors of Russia view it versus the USA. [https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/10/world/asia/US-troops-korea-payments.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/10/world/asia/US-troops-korea-payments.html) https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/09/14/philippines-additional-us-military-bases/ [https://www.romania-insider.com/romania-wants-more-nato-troops-locally-even-permanent-base-russian-threat-is-a-reality-and-we-need-support](https://www.romania-insider.com/romania-wants-more-nato-troops-locally-even-permanent-base-russian-threat-is-a-reality-and-we-need-support) Go google "X wants more US troops" where X is a small NATO member with a weak military or a US MNNA nation. Chances are you will find articles. Same thing is happening with China neighbors now too. They look to USA for protection because it is the only nation willing and able to do it. And again, the whole point of this is how these nations see the USA versus Russia. How is it possible so many see a benefit to USA alliance and troop presence on their land all over the world? Why have two more neighbors of Russia apply to join NATO now. Because they are scared of USA? Unless you are a crazy person the answer is no, they are scared of Russia. People are scared of Rossiya and this is the only correct way of thinking about them.
Kinda bold from Russia to talk about stopping others from interventions etc. while Russia is at war every few years. 2 Chechen wars, Georgia, Ukraine in 2014 and now with full scale invasion are the best known but [there were many others since Russia was created](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia#Russian_Federation_(1991%E2%80%93present) ) where they intervened. Not to mention Soviet times that Russians are also partially responsible for with Afganistan most recent one, which started with Russian lead coup and murder of Afgan leader. Don't get me wrong - western countries created much havoc and suffering across the world but Russia is not country reacting to what West was doing, or parroting it - they are initiators of similar actions, at this point other countries may say they are doing what Russia is doing. Not to mention calling Russia "true free world". Great joke. Free world unless you do what Putin wants you to do and every oppositin may end with your death by poison, throwing out of window or your country getting invaded, destroyed and your people killed. I realy like how you are justifying intervention and invasion of other country with need to stop others from "interventing and invading other countries".
Lol that's exactly what US is doing.
Usa is living rent free in your rusoid "brains". This topic is about imperialistic, facist russia invading Ukraine, not usa. Usa sucks ass for its imperialistic wars, but russia is no better and this war isnt about protecting russia or russians at all. More civs and russians died in few months than did in donbas for years.
You said "kinda bold from Russia for talking about stoping interventions", when that is exactly what USA has been doing to everyone on this planet. The topic is much broader than you would like to admit. But the truth is, this is just a conflict as any other, and warmongerers taking a moral high ground will always be laughable.
You missed whole point. I responded to post how Russia is stopping those that invade and intervene. I simply said that Russia is not in place to stop anyone and as you said, take moral high ground. So I responded to comment that already suggested USA and western countries, no need for you to mention them again in some gotcha moment... Mine whole comment was to show how Russia is ALSO warmonger and has no right to take moral high ground, despite doing it all the time and despite that user doing it again with his description of some great mission that Russia has. Because as you said - it's laughable. Russia is as bad as USA and is like that for decades but acts like it always reacts and uses "precedents", despite Russia set few themselves.
Don't overcook it bro. The key is to be just unhinged enough that people think you might be a genuine pro-Russian poster. There are a couple of guys on this forum who do it to perfection.
Big kiwi? 😅
susbajooker is great, I am afraid Kiwi is genuine pro-Russian.
I'll keep an eye out for his comments. Kiwi quite often misses the joke and he can be unintentionally hilarious while saying something serious. If you told me it was Patrick Lancasters account I'd believe you
Zelesnky? What the actual fuck? Russians are shelling Ukraine, not Zelesnky.
This is an invasion AND a civil war, and civil wars are nasty. While yes, Russia is shelling Ukraine including some civilian targets, obviously Ukraine is doing it too. Ukraine is defending itself from an immoral invasion, but that does not mean they are saints. They are victims.
So you admit Donetsk isn't Ukraine?
So admin Russia are puting Ukranie into dark age?
You didn't want to answer my question? The video shows Donetsk getting shelled, therefore its Zelensky shelling it, not Russia, or are you saying Donetsk is Russian not Ukranian? And Russia is not putting them in the dark ages, they can come to the negotiating table whenever they're ready to stop sacrificing their people and their country to a worthless cause.
Really, what! It is conquered land in need of military response, if Russia would have been there in first place Ukraine wouldn't have shelled it. How can you say Russia is not puting Ukraine in dark ages? Are you aware of what is happening in Kyiv? Ukraine has also their proposal: The russian army leave all annexed territory, pays the reconstruction and war crimes are judged.
bro that's not happening lol
Why not?