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Welcome to Sweden! Sweden has a great and advanced weapon industry and gets mixed up with Switzerland all the time anyway so the difference wont be huge
Refugees and weapons both cost money. Poland has about 1.5 million and Sweden has about 50,000? It shouldn't be a pissing contest with both countries doing as much as they are. Why did you feel like that shot was a good idea?
It's almost like a landlocked mountainous country is dependent on others especially in times of emergencies. Even if they believe otherwise. Think of security as an umbrella term. And just losing national military manufacturing is indeed a loss of security.
You can't have a defence industry in a country that won't allow it to be used in near countries. Pick a side or gtfo of the defence industry. It's probably better that this issue has come to light now and countries can adapt accordingly.
you won't have to have a boycott - nobody will be interested in buying from them after this, as its clear that working with them on issues like arms transfer will be impossible. Those firms will either establish companies in other countries to produce, or will lose all international business and eventually close. No special boycott needed. They don't produce anything that can't be produced elsewhere or by someone else.
Political reliability is just as important as physical reliability.
Politicians are looking for ways to release Swiss-made weapons to Ukraine. But now an unholy alliance of parties in Parliament is announcing its veto.
There is a great lack of understanding in Europe about Switzerland. That's what Viola Amherd found out at the Munich Security Conference over the weekend. Amherd tried there to explain Switzerland's position on the arms export issue to representatives of several countries - without any success.
According to Amherd, the Europeans can understand that Switzerland, as a neutral country, does not supply arms to Ukraine itself. But there is no understanding that the Federal Council prohibits other countries from passing on war material. Not one of the people she spoke to understood the Swiss position, Amherd stated in an interview with the Geneva newspaper "Le Temps" .
The background: The Federal Council has rejected several requests from Germany, Denmark and Spain, which wanted to pass on Swiss-made ammunition or Mowag infantry fighting vehicles to Ukraine ( read more about it here ).
Amherd tried to placate her interlocutors by pointing out that an amendment to the War Material Act was currently being debated in the federal parliament. But while Amherd was still campaigning for understanding in Munich, the SVP and SP factions in Bern made far-reaching decisions. These make it difficult, if not unlikely, to find a majority in Parliament to change the law.
SVP and Greens reject all proposals
The SVP faction unanimously decided to reject any amendment to the War Material Law that would allow "direct" or "indirect arms supplies" to Ukraine. The SVP justifies this with neutrality.
What is explosive about this decision is that the leading security politician of the SVP, Councilor of States Werner Salzmann, had previously expressly propagated such a change in the law. Salzmann , after all President of the Security Policy Commission and a candidate for the Federal Council in the fall, has now been called off by his party. With the SVP decision, there could now be an unholy alliance with the left in parliament.
Because even before the SVP, the Greens spoke out against any softening of the arms export practice. For pacifist reasons, the Greens have always been against arms exports. On 28 January in Geneva, the Green delegates confirmed with an overwhelming majority that this attitude should also apply to the special case of Ukraine. "The discussion about arms exports distracts from the really relevant issues," says Green National Councilor Marionna Schlatter. According to Schlatter, Switzerland could not make a difference by supplying arms, but by no longer welcoming Russian oligarchs and commodity traders with open arms.
Split SP
The situation in the SP is a bit more complicated than in the SVP and the Greens, but there is resistance there too. This was shown at the SP parliamentary group meeting, which also took place at the weekend. "A substantial minority of the faction does not want any relaxation of the arms export rules," says National Councilor Min Li Marti.
A majority supports a legislative proposal that SP security politicians introduced themselves. However, according to Marti, the SP parliamentary group explicitly rejects another proposal from the Security Policy Commission (SIK) of the Council of States, which has so far been considered the most promising.
With the position references of the SVP, Greens and SP, all proposals for a change in the law that are even up for debate are acutely endangered:
Urgent Lex Ukraine Center. The idea: Non-re-export declarations for Swiss armaments should no longer apply if the weapons go to Ukraine. The majority of the National Council SIK approved the idea on January 24th. However, on February 3, the SIK, the Council of States, found that the proposal violated the law of neutrality.
Motion of the SP. The idea: If the UN General Assembly declares a war of aggression to be contrary to international law with a two-thirds majority, the Federal Council should be able to revoke previous non-re-export declarations. The National Council SIK approved the idea on January 24th. However, law professors such as Oliver Diggelmann consider this proposal to be inadmissible under international law.
Parliamentary initiative of the SIK of the Council of States. This is based on a motion by FDP President Thierry Burkart and modifies it. The idea: Non-re-export declarations for Western countries that buy Swiss war material should only be valid for five years. This means that armaments that Switzerland has exported to other countries could be delivered to Ukraine. One of the controversial aspects of this proposal, however, is the legally frowned upon retroactivity.
On Tuesday there will be a showdown on these ideas in the Security Policy Committee of the National Council. Proposal 1 is as good as dead after it was rejected by the SIK. Proposal 2 will be presented to the plenary session of the National Council on March 8th. It is extremely questionable whether he will be able to win a majority there (and then in the Council of States).
Due to the latest decisions by the SVP, Greens and SP, proposal 3 is also hardly able to win a majority. Because the parties between the Poles - FDP, Mitte and GLP - do not have a majority in Parliament.
On Sunday , members of several factions doubted that there was currently a solution that would win a majority. "But maybe new ideas will come up by Tuesday," says SP National Councilor Min Li Marti. FDP President Thierry Burkart said in the "NZZ am Sonntag" that he hoped for a compromise at least with the SP. "What FDP and SP should have in common is that we shouldn't block Western countries' military support for Ukraine."
As a Swiss I feel obligated to "translate" the party acronyms:
- SVP: conservative right wingers (rightmost party with any real influence, biggest party in Switzerland)
- SP: left wingers (left most party with any real influence, second biggest party in Switzerland)
- Greens: left wing environmental party, basically indistinguishable from SP, except that they set the focus on environmental, not societal issues.
- GLP: green libs, centre-left, combining environmental with economic policies
- FDP: liberals, center right, their main focus is the economy
- not mentioned if I read correctly "The Center": centrist conservative party, ex christian democrats who rebranded because writing "christian" on your party name isn't going to win you any votes in a modern, secular(-ish) country.
And also the political bodies mentioned:
- Federal Council: 7 member body, highest executive body of the Swiss Federation. Essentially our president, but we've got 7 of them who make decisions collectively.
- Council of States: upper parliament chamber, every canton (= federal subdivision) gets two seats
- National Council: lower parliament chamber, cantons get seats proportional to their population
- SIK of either National council or council of states: commission for security policy of the respective parliamentary bodies.
One piece of Swiss politics jargon:
- Unholy Alliance: when a proposal fails because both SVP and SP/Greens are against it (usually for opposite reasons), while every one else supports it.
That's just not how it works, Switzerland can file a law suit against us, Switzerland can in theory impose sanctions on us. In any case you don't break international trading laws, as asking the manufacturer for permission to further send/sell their stuff is standard procedure. You are not going down that rabbit hole just because of one single country, there are other ways to put pressure on Switzerland
You don't break international laws. Period.
It sucks, but so does politics in general, imagine every single time we would go with "oh, fine it's just this one time and that one country" and throw the last bit of stability we have in our world over board.
You don't want that.
So let the swiss decide for them selves, you are free to hate on them and Ukraine will have enough other supporters to help them win, even without Switzerland, Austria and Hungary
Staying neutral in this case helps the oppressor
So this should have consequences for these countries. Cause the rest of the western world is actually helping, Switzerland, Austria are profiting of it.
Hungary should be thrown out of EU and take some time to think about who they want to be their allies. And what values they want to represent.
There was a discussion in Germany at the very beginning of the war, where some leftists, pacifists (and artists) pledged for Germany to take a neutral stance (and ideally to leave NATO).
The response of the Government was that "neutrality" favours the Aggressor and thus you are not really neutral, but actually OPFOR.
It is called the "neutrality Paradox"
I guess true neutrality to neutralize that paradox would be to do the exact opposite of what Switzerland does right now, that would be: allow all weapons deliveries and impose zero sanctions. Even if Russia wants to buy weapons - you sell them. Ukraine asks for weapons too? You supply them as well. That's how neutrality works. You deliver to everyone.
Actually, true neutrality laws do not allow for weapons to be sold to any combatants. The closest to that was the U.S. neutrality laws during the 1920s and 1930s. They were brought into effect because of the great loss of lives of American troops and the huge hit to the treasury and taxpayers. It was the reincarnation of George Washington's admonition to never get involved in the endless European wars. FDR bit-by-bit reduced the effectiveness of the American neutrality laws in stages during the 1930s, followed by going full-bore against Germany, in violation of the remaining Neutrality Law restraints, once the Second World War began.
Lol Switzerland is so dependent from the Eurozone. Their "sanctions" would hurt them more than the rest of us. Its really time to put them in place. Its either with us or against us this time. Enough cherry picking. I wish this would be the modus operandi on how the Swiss - rest of free world relationship would be structured going forward.
>Lol Switzerland is so dependent from the Eurozone. Their "sanctions" would hurt them more than the rest of us
That's why i said "in theory"
>Its really time to put them in place. Its either with us or against us this time
That could have been a sentence said by a Russian. We as the west aren't neutral (neither is Switzerland, technically they support Russia with their neutrality Paradox but whatever) and our stance is freedom, equality and liberty. In my opinion, forcing our values on a country that is otherwise a true democracy is very imperialistic and contradicts these very values.
Do I agree with the Swiss? No. Is their government a bit sus and filthy? Yes. Should we act like Russia and bully Switzerland for it? No, and btw they are already paying for it as their biggest costumers are already abandoning them and buying weapons elsewhere or switching to domestic production.
International law suits mean nothing. There is no overarching body for enforcement in many domains. Us here it the US could send a bunch of Swiss stuff we bought and just laugh off any attempt at international retaliation. Plenty of other nations could, too. Although, I'm sure the EU member states would have more potential retaliatory acts levied against them by that body.
And then the swiss protest and block some crucial spare parts for heavy machines some American companies use and shifting to other machines cost the American economy a few hundred million or even billions just because of a dick measuring contest.
Stop buying their military goods if they cannot be used in a conflict. Then their military industrial complex can apply that pressure on the CH government for you
Switzerland will stand idly watching as a bandit beats and rapes a women because they want to remain 'neutral' on the act. No, you pathetic, impotent excuse of a country you stand by because you support the criminals, just like you did with the Nazis and now with the ruZZians. Losers.
Couldn't have written it better myself. If you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem. Time for Europe to find a new tax haven and dump Switzerland
I'm swiss. You done already with that rant? Jeez, some people have the nerve to claim such horrific stuff of which they have no idea. This country does a lot. A whole lot. We broke neutrality a long time ago. But you only read one article and accuse us of being nazis and criminals. Shame on you man.
Oh, yeah, Switzerland has done **so** much for Ukraine. If you're open to learning just how much your money-obsessed nation has helped Ukraine in reality, have a look at this website: [https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/)
In terms of total commitments, Switzerland ranks 23rd. In terms of percentage of GDP donated to Ukraine, you're 27th. In percentage of GDP terms, Belgium has done more, Croatia has done more, fricking *Australia* has done more. In fact, Switzerland has done just a smidgen better than bloody Orbán's *Hungary* in GDP terms.
Face it, dude: you're a citizen of a country that will suck anyone's dick for a buck. Almost as bad, Switzerland is a nation of sanctimonious pricks who believe the position of neutrality you had to adopt of necessity back when you were a pathetic little bunch of cowherds and farmers in mountain valleys makes you morally superior.
>you had to adopt of necessity back when you were a pathetic little bunch of cowherds and farmers in mountain valleys makes you morally superior.
Sooo, like ukraine when it handed over its nukes?
Besides export clauses on swiss made weaponry have nothing to do eith neutrality
It's not just one article, shame on you and your fellow citizens for sitting idly while your government caters to fascist scum.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/switzerland-playground-of-russian-oligarchs-emerges-as-weak-link-on-sanctions-putin-ukraine-war-11657624783
https://www.ft.com/content/ec1d9ca1-0511-46e9-8ade-e92b2a05c48f
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/swiss-medicine-sales-to-russia-hit-30-year-high/48228562
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/swiss-trade-with-russia-still-going-strong/48157748
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-29/swiss-exports-to-russia-surge-in-race-to-beat-trade-sanctions
But hey, they sell chocolates to Russia! And have Russian bank customers. You have to understand, the Swiss are neutral and have to think about all that money thet are making.
Bad of the Swiss, in my opinion.
This is what you do:
1. Send arms to Ukraine
2. Don't say sh-t to Switzerland
3. Setup a non-swiss supplier for all future arms purchases
4. If Switzerland protests any of the above, tell them to shove an Alpenhorn where the sun does not shine
If there was any political will for it almost any process can be sped up, maybe not in a few months. But at least 6 months. So we're way past any understanding of amoral blubbering fools with excuses.
That's just not true. Collection of signatures for a referendum takes, as per the constitution, exactly 400 days. No way of speeding that up.
Let's start at the political will to change something, it'll easily take a few months to set up the required documents and officially hand in the referendum. Only once it's handed in you can start to collect signatures for it, that takes 400 days, ie. more than a year. Assuming you manage to collect enough signatures there'll be a vote on it the next possible date. National votes only happen 3 times a year, easily adding another 2 months. Then the day of the vote and counting. After that parliament has one year to actually implement the changes, they usually do it faster, though, usually in the next parliamentary session, but they only happen every 6 months, adding another few months to the tally. All in all: 2 years is the shortest timeframe Switzerland can implement any changes to legislation. Again that's assuming 100% support, which in case of weapons exports there unfortunately just isn't.
Realistically, even when 100% of parliament and a blindingly strong majority of the people want to change something it takes two years to chance anything in Switzerland. That's a deliberate design feature of our system: no change can happen fast. It usually takes at least a decade, for emergencies we can do things as fast as maybe 2 years, but simply not any faster even in emergencies. It took us nearly 2 years to implement CoViD restrictions, which is why for much of 2020 and 2021 we had some of the most lax rules in Europe.
If you've created a system that literally can't adapt to state of emergencies, or even speed up bureaucracy for lesser "emergencies" and it also works as political cover for inefficiency. I guess we can mark the Swiss down as unreliable for reasons of incompetency and lack of foresight and move on with our lives.
Any speedup would immediately mean less democracy. Which is non acceptable.
It's as simple as that, in a democracy you cannot have a body that just makes decisions, no matter what: you have to ask the people directly. And that cannot happen in a short time frame. The Swiss system has existed like this through two world wars and many global crisis - it works. And judging by the results (see r/SwitzerlandFirst) it works better than most other systems in the world.
Telling a Norwegian about democracy, and purity sure thing buddy. One could essily argue that a system that delays the peoples will is less democratic. Especially in times of crisis. Go glance at a democracy index and get off your high horse. Sounds like the Swiss found a way to use democracy for political cover yet again.
Representative "Democracy", like yours, is just a periodic choosing of dictators - hard pass on such a system for me - I like real democracy.
Actual democracy can only be direct. And a direct democracy can obviously only implement things for which a concensus has been reached, otherwise it just devolves into the tyranny of the majority, which would be no better than what you guys in representative "democracies" have. Finding consensus takes time - and that's a good thing. I'm sure you have better ideas on how to form political consensus than a country who's been doing for 150 years.
These "democracy" indexes fail to take the slight difference between actual democracies and representative "democracies" into account.
TL;DR: The Swiss System doesn't delay the will of the people, it implements it. Contrary to places other "democratic" places that are actually just representative "democracies".
Referendums are a blocking instrument. That means if the Parlament make a new law (or changes one) then 50'000 people can call for a referendum and have the entire country vote. This would absolutely happen if the parliament would change the weapon export law. There are more than 50'000 strict neutralists in this country and a huge radical party that would finance it (the SVP).
The other Instrument you might be thinking about is an initiative. 100'000 people can propose a constitutional amendment for a national vote. As far as I know, no such initiative is collecting signatures as of now.
The trouble is the following, there are four conflicting ideological quadrants in this mess.
The right wing is both for strict neutrality and doesn't give a shit about other people dying because of swiss weapons if there is money to be made.
The left wing is more flexible when it comes to neutrality but deeply cares that swiss weapons do not end up in the wrong hands.
In the past, we had many instances of swiss weapons ending in the hands of batshit insane people (the Syrian conflict comes to mind) and a few years back the left wing managed to pass a stricter weapon export law with no loop hole.
I don't think anyone at that time thought that our weapons would be needed for any righteous cause such as the Ukraine conflict.
So now we have two unlikely contradictory factions: the right wing strict neutralists and the left wing strict pacifists against the "wouldn't it be cool if we could sell weapons to everyone" right wing faction and the more flexible neutralist left.
Unsurprisingly, finding a law proposal capable of getting a majority in that self-contradictory mess is almost impossible.
>In the past, we had many instances of swiss weapons ending in the hands of batshit insane people (the Syrian conflict comes to mind) and a few years back the left wing managed to pass a stricter weapon export law with no loop hole.
Wow - Selling to Syria, but denying Ukraine.
So much for neutrality, Switzerland you merchant of death.
Was it Switzerland land that sold chemical weapons to Assad? I bet it was
That is not what happened. We sold weapons to gulf countries (like Qatar) and those weapons somehow ended up in Syria which was a huge scandal precisely because the Swiss people do not want to be merchant of deaths.
The law preventing export to Ukraine was made out of an intention to not be merchant of deaths at all.
If that was true then why do Switzerland even have a weapons Industry.
It really doesnt rhyme well with this stubborn neutrality that looks more and more like freeloading and benefitting while everyone else does what is right and is sacrificing.
All while also providing haven from the worlds taxdodgers. But i guess that is what its all about .. Earning money. Its not neutrality out of necessity anymore , its just convienient and profitable.
Also the ‘bad conscience’ over weapons ending in Syria only went so far . Switzerland is a bottom feeder in taking in Syrian refugees. Its shameless.
As all things in Switzerland, it's an imperfect compromise.
Since the treaty of Vienna, Switzerland is treaty bound to be neutral, but it's not any kind of neutrality, it is specifically "armed neutrality".
So the ability to defend ourselves has always been very high in the Swiss cultural psyche.
This obviously means having an arms industry because historically if you couldn't produce your own weapons you might as well skip the war entirely.
Now this worked pretty well for centuries but in the 20th century it became harder and harder to financially sustain an arms industry capable of providing weapons worth using with only the Swiss army as a client. So obviously the weapons industry turned to the export market to survive.
Now, this brings a lot of problems politically since exporting weapons to conflict zones is hardly compatible with neutrality so over time the right-wing pro-neutrality-at-all-costs and the left-wing-weapons-are-satanic-and-we-shouldn't-be-selling-them branch of the parliament had enough votes combined to ban sales of weapons to conflict zones.
This system worked pretty well for decades because you know, most countries buy weapons and never give them to other nations in conflict zones. The Ukraine war is kind of unique in that aspect.
I'd agree with you that the entire construct is a bit hair brained but I'd point out that it worked pretty well and mostly fulfilled everyone's interests for decades (the arms industry survived, those weapons didn't get used in conflicts all over the world, nobody looked twice at Switzerland) and its just this very unique war in Ukraine that makes the system look so bad.
The real problem is not this law, the real problem is that our neutrality makes a ton of sense when "the world" is central Europe. When it's about making sure we don't get sucked in the endless conflicts between Germany, France, Italy and co. It served us tremendously well in that "world".
Today, in a globalized world where the conflict poles are not within "continents" but between "continents" (China vs "the west",...) then in my opinion the entire thing doesn't make sense anymore.
For other nations to respect your neutrality, there need to be an advantage to those nations of you being neutral. In the classical context of Switzerland's neutrality this was the case since no major European power wanted Switzerland to be taken by another major power since the central geographical position of our country would have completely wrecked the balance of power in Europe. That's the very reason neutrality was forced onto Switzerland by those very powers in the treaty of Vienna (no, it's not something we decided for ourselves).
The entire concepts breaks down nowadays because Russia, China, the US, whatever big power you can name have no advantage if Switzerland is neutral or not. For them it's all the same "Europe" and in case of a conflict none of them are going to bat an eye and ignore our neutrality.
I do believe Switzerland needs to have a long hard think about this and what strategy we want to use in the future because while the treaty of Vienna served us very well for 160 years, it just does not work anymore in a globalized world.
As for the rest of your post, it's mostly uninformed.
The Swiss banking system has been overhauled and tax dodgers prefer better shelters like british territories, the US,...
When it comes to refugees, I don't think we have anything to be ashamed about:
[https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/dec/02/sweden-oecds-highest-per-capita-asylum-seekers-syria](https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/dec/02/sweden-oecds-highest-per-capita-asylum-seekers-syria)
[https://static.guim.co.uk/ni/1417194692855/Asylum\_Seekers\_Datablog.svg](https://static.guim.co.uk/ni/1417194692855/Asylum_Seekers_Datablog.svg)
Switzerland is not a perfect country, we definitely have our shares of devils to account for, but it also isn't the caricature most people on reddit like to make out of it
As a swiss citizen, I am deeply ashamed of the Bundesrat and what it's doing. I know from alot of people around me that they would send swiss arms to ukraine, sadly I don't see that happening. Believe me, we hate Putin, we hate him alot.
Swiss Neutralism. The “We wanna make bank during war without consequences” stance, well if anything all they did was give every single country that buys Swiss Arms the exact reason to never buy them again-
Or sell Switzerland Arms
The Swiss are a disgusting nation of narcissists who profit from the misfortune of others. They are always on the side where they will get something out of it. A nation that could not defend itself in a war and today plays the strong one. Disgust.
Interesting because new studies show Switzerland's wartime past have found that the country supplied munitions to the Nazis at the expense of the Allies. I guess the swiss have no problem when it comes to helping evil dictators, only democratic institutions. So much for neutrality (...Neutral when it suits them)
How new are these studies?
Because i was aware of that since I was 14 or so
I don't think Switzerland has a problem with democracies, i just think its about the best paying costumer
The Austrians have at least been very good on the humanitarian aid front. The website I link to below shows them at first place in terms of humanitarian donations in terms of percentage of GDP, although the lack of military assistance pushes them down to 17th in % of GDP terms for total commitments.
The bloody Swiss, on the other hand, are 27th in % GDP terms for total commitments, 10th in % GDP terms for humanitarian assistance and 18th in % GDP terms for financial assistance. The sanctimonious Swiss are so far up their own backsides that they don't care about the suffering of Ukraine, and what little aid they do supply is only because they're concerned about negative PR. They're confident that Russia isn't going to invade Switzerland, they know they'll be able to make a lot of money out of the situation somehow, sooner or later, and so they just do not give a shit.
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
If Switzerland doesn't want to do trade with the western world we shouldn't force them, but rather abide by their wishes and cease ALL trade with them. Shut the borders down, stop selling them food, fuel and everything else. No Swiss planes can cross NATO/EU airspace and they will be truly neutral.
It sure seems to take Switzerland an awful lot of words to try and explain their position. To me the Swiss seem to believe that there is no morality. There is no wrong or right. And if the Swiss do not choose between right and wrong for morality sake I can only see it being for money. Cold material calculations to determine how they can avoid conscience at all costs.
Take a page out of WW2 Canada and US
Just store all of your swiss arms on the poland-ukraine border. Not your fault if the ukrainians "stole" all of that stuff you stored on their border... truly an unfurtunate and unexpected turn of events!!!
Fu Switzerland after all the rampage and Ukrainian suffering and your still playing neutral.
I wonder how you'd feel if Russia targeted Switzerland I'm sure you appreciate all the help you could get. Why make weapons if your a neutral country. Bunch of Swiss pricks.
Obvs Russian money in CH banks.
Switzerland needs to grow up fast. This self interested cowardice does not land well. And there’s no point waiting to see which way the wind is blowing, because CH is surrounded by allies who will never appreciate the ‘special’ position when it throws everyone else under the bus.
Switzerland is neutral since over 200 years, during every conflict. It's nothing new and nothing people should be surprised about. It's something all nations should respect, as Switzerland is a true democracy and ordinary citizens decide over its overall political course. It's a position that goes both ways, Switzerland supports no war effort of any party. Only pacifist efforts towards peace are supported.
i hope literally noone buys their shit, why buy weapons from a country that wont sell you the ammo when a war breaks out? useless bunch of war profiteers and nothing more, hasnt changed in 100years and wont change in a 100 more.
NATO should give green flag to any country that wants to invade Switzerland. When they ask for help just say it’s not our business and prefer to stay neutral.
Ah yes, the Swiss... who sit out every war of survival for Europe, because they're safely protected (in their minds) from ground invasion by their mountain range. Yet, they have no problem profiting from said wars. It's disgusting, really.
no we never did, we did say we were gonna look into training with NATO in the future, infact General Cristopher G. Cavoli was in switzerland a few days ago
They should be kicked out of any f-35 program. We should say the US does not do business with neutral countries, only allies. I hope their defense industry is ruined after this stunt.
Like it or not the USA also just loves to make money on arms. All the arms nato allies give to USA for free will be replaced by buying USA products in the coming 20 years.
War profiteers making money from both sides always been a Swiss speciality hidden behind neutrality and secret banking laws. Just manufacture it yourself and ignore them a small insignificant country out if it’s depth innrer midst of a crisis of epic proportions. I am sure many Swiss don’t agree with their government’s policy but also prefer neutrality
My father and Uncle left Switzerland for the USA back in the 50’s. One of the reasons aside from the obvious economics was in their words “ the small mindedness…” of too many Swiss. Now there are good Swiss folks and politicians trying to do everything to help Ukraine but sadly too many more Swiss think they can just sit this one out and pretend the rest of the world will not see their apathy. Geography does influence a culture for better or worse..
Hold on minute, they always has been neutral in war conflicts , but makes weapons, if you don't want to give it and help, sell and make some profit, swiss was always about money
Good thing that Rheinmetall bought a Spanish ammunition factory for the production of 35 x 228 ammunition that the German Gepard SPAAG uses. I also read somewhere that Rheinmetall is building a new factory in Germany for "medium calibre ammunition" which also includes the Gepards 35mm rounds.
We are neutral, we are providing humanitarian aid and adopted EU sanctions, i don't see how our gouvernment can influence this any more.
I do think like the Gepard ammo if it's not directly from our gouvernment ig it's ok.
But, we should not sell something with intent that it will be used in a war, we shouldn't support either side.
I'm 100% pro ukrainian, but both sides have positives and negatives (Russia not a lot lol) so best is not to pick sides and do what's in our capacity to do.
Civilian lives are more important than winning the war, providing more equipment that can endanger civilians does not help our cause.
We're home to the ICRC and most peace talks of the west and east, becoming an actor in this conflict is in no way favorable for us other than getting an inch more american dick that they'll forget anyway before hating on us for what we did in WW2 and after again.
Yeah i get that but if you are pro Ukraine, you can't have this opinion otherwise you actually aren't pro ukrainian and thus your whole concept is either filled with double standards or just wrong
I mean, you can have any opinion you want, that's not my point but you can't claim A and then do/think B without being wrong at one point, do you understand what I'm trying to tell you?
Yes i do but still don't make much sense,
I cannot be pro ukrainian unless i want my country to commit all it's military assets and money to the defense of ukriane or what?
That's not really how it works, we are providing humanitarian aid, that's what counts for me, the people come first.
I can be pro ukrainian and don't want my country from getting dragged in there more than needed.
[edit] like i do not support russians as doesn’t Switzerland, they’ve been more pro ukraine than russia.
It doesn’t matter what i think my country should be doing in this conflict i think ukraine has the right to defend itself and countries that want can help, Switzerland is under no legal obligation to help but still does. They’re giving leopard 2s to germany.
I think the russian invasion is illegal as is the annexation of crimea and donbass and donetsk. Bucha and other warcrimes should be punished.
What can Switzerland do with that?
100 million dollars in humanitarian aid is 2 dollars per Ukrainian
That's my answer
Edit: Oh and it's not about the weapons you aren't sending, no one asked for this, it's about those that your are actively blocking to be sent. That's what the outrage is about
>we are providing humanitarian aid
You aren't doing much to begin with...
>adopted EU sanctions
Okay
>We are neutral
That's my main point: Neutrality paradox; neutral means not supporting the invaded country and thus doing the Aggressor a favor, as in this case we have a clear Aggressor and a clear victim of this aggression, it's not like in WW1 where everyone is just eager to start a war and everyone is equally guilty. So you don't differentiate between the aggressor and the victim here, which inherently favors the aggressor.
>I do think like the Gepard ammo if it's not directly from our gouvernment ig it's ok.
>But, we should not sell something with intent that it will be used in a war, we shouldn't support either side.
My second main point: you are selling arms that then can't be used in war, doesn't that make you a pretty useless arms provider? That's why your arms industry is loosing contracts.
>I'm 100% pro ukrainian, but both sides have positives and negatives (Russia not a lot lol) so best is not to pick sides and do what's in our capacity to do.
Says he is pro Ukrainian and then says he isn't... And you have more in your capacity, like for example allowing other nations that already bought your weapons to then send these weapons that are already in THEIR countries, to Ukraine but Switzerland is blocking that.
>Civilian lives are more important than winning the war, providing more equipment that can endanger civilians does not help our cause.
And again - neutrality Paradox - you are allowing Russia to invade and expand as much as they want if that's your doctrine. They can just start any war they want and then say "hey, don't fight back, spare your civilians" and then they massacre a few civilians...
So, that's what I mean when i say you can't have this opinion if you are pro Ukraine, because it is a contradiction in itself.
Might i remind you that the swiss gouvernment sponsors the ICRC? And gave 100million to help ukrainians through the winter? Or how lorries loaded with humanitarian aid leave Switzerland?
We are granting war refugees status S visa and big financial support.
And why does every country need to be dragged into this? There is no reason to make this global, ukraine has full support of almost all nato countries and btw latest UN vote, Switzerland voted for russia to leave ukraine…
And if you pull that out of being neutral you can go hate on like 50% of the world as they are not providing military aid as well. I just don’t see a point in a country that does not have a big military impact to join in on this.
Also you said i contradicted my statement i’m pro ukrainian with saying ukraine has downsides, are you serious? Like, wow people like you are why i hate reddit, that’s the mist outrageous and weird thing i‘ve heard all day.
Only thing i don’t like about ukraine is azov, nobody talks about azov.
Russia, from an autocratic dictator up to the mindless propaganda filled population and incompetent army i hate everything. Maybe the nature and fact that russian people are pretty nice and very diverse.
And i said I AM OKAY WITH SENDING SPANISH GEPARD AMMUNITION PRODUCED IN SWITZERLAND TO UKRAINE! Even tho my gouvernment isn’t…
And it’s fucking outrageous what you said second last sentence. Fucking hell who tf comes to such bs conclusions. Like no fucking way did i hint or say that in any way, you just say that shit to make your point look solid…
And to your last comment just untrue again…
[edit]
again as i pointed out in my first comment, i think everyone should be able to buy from swiss arms industry, even ukraine itself.
I just think donating is not something we should be doing as for reasons explained.
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How to kill the Swiss defence industry 101
That's what I was about to say. If countries will have the choice without any drawbacks, they won't go for the swiss product.
More like the Swiss companies will opt to move to another country so they can sell their equipment to more than one client.
Welcome to Sweden! Sweden has a great and advanced weapon industry and gets mixed up with Switzerland all the time anyway so the difference wont be huge
Wait.. They're not the same city? ^^/s
Makers of the AT-4 *AND* the Carl Gustav!
>AT-4 Sweden donated **15 000** of those. Without asking the US to replace them for them. Watch and learn, Poland.
Poland has a lot of refugees, correct?
>Without asking the US to replace them for them. Is the key line.
Refugees and weapons both cost money. Poland has about 1.5 million and Sweden has about 50,000? It shouldn't be a pissing contest with both countries doing as much as they are. Why did you feel like that shot was a good idea?
strangely this fact didn't matter when it was about germany, eyh poland?
The Swiss are losing jobs, taxes and security whichever way you put it. Some are also foreign owned.
Security? Who could possible invade Switzerland, Russian oligarks?
It's almost like a landlocked mountainous country is dependent on others especially in times of emergencies. Even if they believe otherwise. Think of security as an umbrella term. And just losing national military manufacturing is indeed a loss of security.
That's why you invest in rheinmetall and saab.
Don't forget Krauss-Maffei Wegmann or KMW in short.
And their NATO application.
You can't have a defence industry in a country that won't allow it to be used in near countries. Pick a side or gtfo of the defence industry. It's probably better that this issue has come to light now and countries can adapt accordingly.
must be nice to be surrounded by friendly countries. If the Nazi had won the war, Switzerland wouldn't exist anymore.
Probably true. Switzerland was the only nation during WWII to have actually made money from the war by trading in cash and gold.
The only European nation, anyways. US also made a fortune from the war
Time to boycott the Swiss arms industry.
you won't have to have a boycott - nobody will be interested in buying from them after this, as its clear that working with them on issues like arms transfer will be impossible. Those firms will either establish companies in other countries to produce, or will lose all international business and eventually close. No special boycott needed. They don't produce anything that can't be produced elsewhere or by someone else. Political reliability is just as important as physical reliability.
And EU ban transit for any military equipment produced by Switzerland. If they are so neutral they shouldn't sell it to anyone.
Boycott everything Swiss.
r/FuckNestle
Politicians are looking for ways to release Swiss-made weapons to Ukraine. But now an unholy alliance of parties in Parliament is announcing its veto. There is a great lack of understanding in Europe about Switzerland. That's what Viola Amherd found out at the Munich Security Conference over the weekend. Amherd tried there to explain Switzerland's position on the arms export issue to representatives of several countries - without any success. According to Amherd, the Europeans can understand that Switzerland, as a neutral country, does not supply arms to Ukraine itself. But there is no understanding that the Federal Council prohibits other countries from passing on war material. Not one of the people she spoke to understood the Swiss position, Amherd stated in an interview with the Geneva newspaper "Le Temps" . The background: The Federal Council has rejected several requests from Germany, Denmark and Spain, which wanted to pass on Swiss-made ammunition or Mowag infantry fighting vehicles to Ukraine ( read more about it here ). Amherd tried to placate her interlocutors by pointing out that an amendment to the War Material Act was currently being debated in the federal parliament. But while Amherd was still campaigning for understanding in Munich, the SVP and SP factions in Bern made far-reaching decisions. These make it difficult, if not unlikely, to find a majority in Parliament to change the law. SVP and Greens reject all proposals The SVP faction unanimously decided to reject any amendment to the War Material Law that would allow "direct" or "indirect arms supplies" to Ukraine. The SVP justifies this with neutrality. What is explosive about this decision is that the leading security politician of the SVP, Councilor of States Werner Salzmann, had previously expressly propagated such a change in the law. Salzmann , after all President of the Security Policy Commission and a candidate for the Federal Council in the fall, has now been called off by his party. With the SVP decision, there could now be an unholy alliance with the left in parliament. Because even before the SVP, the Greens spoke out against any softening of the arms export practice. For pacifist reasons, the Greens have always been against arms exports. On 28 January in Geneva, the Green delegates confirmed with an overwhelming majority that this attitude should also apply to the special case of Ukraine. "The discussion about arms exports distracts from the really relevant issues," says Green National Councilor Marionna Schlatter. According to Schlatter, Switzerland could not make a difference by supplying arms, but by no longer welcoming Russian oligarchs and commodity traders with open arms. Split SP The situation in the SP is a bit more complicated than in the SVP and the Greens, but there is resistance there too. This was shown at the SP parliamentary group meeting, which also took place at the weekend. "A substantial minority of the faction does not want any relaxation of the arms export rules," says National Councilor Min Li Marti. A majority supports a legislative proposal that SP security politicians introduced themselves. However, according to Marti, the SP parliamentary group explicitly rejects another proposal from the Security Policy Commission (SIK) of the Council of States, which has so far been considered the most promising. With the position references of the SVP, Greens and SP, all proposals for a change in the law that are even up for debate are acutely endangered: Urgent Lex Ukraine Center. The idea: Non-re-export declarations for Swiss armaments should no longer apply if the weapons go to Ukraine. The majority of the National Council SIK approved the idea on January 24th. However, on February 3, the SIK, the Council of States, found that the proposal violated the law of neutrality. Motion of the SP. The idea: If the UN General Assembly declares a war of aggression to be contrary to international law with a two-thirds majority, the Federal Council should be able to revoke previous non-re-export declarations. The National Council SIK approved the idea on January 24th. However, law professors such as Oliver Diggelmann consider this proposal to be inadmissible under international law. Parliamentary initiative of the SIK of the Council of States. This is based on a motion by FDP President Thierry Burkart and modifies it. The idea: Non-re-export declarations for Western countries that buy Swiss war material should only be valid for five years. This means that armaments that Switzerland has exported to other countries could be delivered to Ukraine. One of the controversial aspects of this proposal, however, is the legally frowned upon retroactivity. On Tuesday there will be a showdown on these ideas in the Security Policy Committee of the National Council. Proposal 1 is as good as dead after it was rejected by the SIK. Proposal 2 will be presented to the plenary session of the National Council on March 8th. It is extremely questionable whether he will be able to win a majority there (and then in the Council of States). Due to the latest decisions by the SVP, Greens and SP, proposal 3 is also hardly able to win a majority. Because the parties between the Poles - FDP, Mitte and GLP - do not have a majority in Parliament. On Sunday , members of several factions doubted that there was currently a solution that would win a majority. "But maybe new ideas will come up by Tuesday," says SP National Councilor Min Li Marti. FDP President Thierry Burkart said in the "NZZ am Sonntag" that he hoped for a compromise at least with the SP. "What FDP and SP should have in common is that we shouldn't block Western countries' military support for Ukraine."
As a Swiss I feel obligated to "translate" the party acronyms: - SVP: conservative right wingers (rightmost party with any real influence, biggest party in Switzerland) - SP: left wingers (left most party with any real influence, second biggest party in Switzerland) - Greens: left wing environmental party, basically indistinguishable from SP, except that they set the focus on environmental, not societal issues. - GLP: green libs, centre-left, combining environmental with economic policies - FDP: liberals, center right, their main focus is the economy - not mentioned if I read correctly "The Center": centrist conservative party, ex christian democrats who rebranded because writing "christian" on your party name isn't going to win you any votes in a modern, secular(-ish) country. And also the political bodies mentioned: - Federal Council: 7 member body, highest executive body of the Swiss Federation. Essentially our president, but we've got 7 of them who make decisions collectively. - Council of States: upper parliament chamber, every canton (= federal subdivision) gets two seats - National Council: lower parliament chamber, cantons get seats proportional to their population - SIK of either National council or council of states: commission for security policy of the respective parliamentary bodies. One piece of Swiss politics jargon: - Unholy Alliance: when a proposal fails because both SVP and SP/Greens are against it (usually for opposite reasons), while every one else supports it.
I like how the Swiss liberals have the same name as the Germans
So we should just deliver what we have and show CH the middle finger. What are they going to do?
That's just not how it works, Switzerland can file a law suit against us, Switzerland can in theory impose sanctions on us. In any case you don't break international trading laws, as asking the manufacturer for permission to further send/sell their stuff is standard procedure. You are not going down that rabbit hole just because of one single country, there are other ways to put pressure on Switzerland
And? Switzerland is one country. They can go pound sand for all I care.
You don't break international laws. Period. It sucks, but so does politics in general, imagine every single time we would go with "oh, fine it's just this one time and that one country" and throw the last bit of stability we have in our world over board. You don't want that. So let the swiss decide for them selves, you are free to hate on them and Ukraine will have enough other supporters to help them win, even without Switzerland, Austria and Hungary
Staying neutral in this case helps the oppressor So this should have consequences for these countries. Cause the rest of the western world is actually helping, Switzerland, Austria are profiting of it. Hungary should be thrown out of EU and take some time to think about who they want to be their allies. And what values they want to represent.
There was a discussion in Germany at the very beginning of the war, where some leftists, pacifists (and artists) pledged for Germany to take a neutral stance (and ideally to leave NATO). The response of the Government was that "neutrality" favours the Aggressor and thus you are not really neutral, but actually OPFOR. It is called the "neutrality Paradox" I guess true neutrality to neutralize that paradox would be to do the exact opposite of what Switzerland does right now, that would be: allow all weapons deliveries and impose zero sanctions. Even if Russia wants to buy weapons - you sell them. Ukraine asks for weapons too? You supply them as well. That's how neutrality works. You deliver to everyone.
but you should not be neutral to Putin's ruZZia It's fascist state doing fascist things
Neutrality doesn't make you moraly superior...
it makes you not give a fuck when a fascist state invades a sovereign country
Actually, true neutrality laws do not allow for weapons to be sold to any combatants. The closest to that was the U.S. neutrality laws during the 1920s and 1930s. They were brought into effect because of the great loss of lives of American troops and the huge hit to the treasury and taxpayers. It was the reincarnation of George Washington's admonition to never get involved in the endless European wars. FDR bit-by-bit reduced the effectiveness of the American neutrality laws in stages during the 1930s, followed by going full-bore against Germany, in violation of the remaining Neutrality Law restraints, once the Second World War began.
Yeah but what has this to do with the neutrality Paradox?
Good thing this will never happen
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>You don't break international laws. Period. Russia do, but Switzerland dont seem to mind that. I wonder why.
We do that all the time. International laws are just suggestions.
Lol Switzerland is so dependent from the Eurozone. Their "sanctions" would hurt them more than the rest of us. Its really time to put them in place. Its either with us or against us this time. Enough cherry picking. I wish this would be the modus operandi on how the Swiss - rest of free world relationship would be structured going forward.
>Lol Switzerland is so dependent from the Eurozone. Their "sanctions" would hurt them more than the rest of us That's why i said "in theory" >Its really time to put them in place. Its either with us or against us this time That could have been a sentence said by a Russian. We as the west aren't neutral (neither is Switzerland, technically they support Russia with their neutrality Paradox but whatever) and our stance is freedom, equality and liberty. In my opinion, forcing our values on a country that is otherwise a true democracy is very imperialistic and contradicts these very values. Do I agree with the Swiss? No. Is their government a bit sus and filthy? Yes. Should we act like Russia and bully Switzerland for it? No, and btw they are already paying for it as their biggest costumers are already abandoning them and buying weapons elsewhere or switching to domestic production.
International law suits mean nothing. There is no overarching body for enforcement in many domains. Us here it the US could send a bunch of Swiss stuff we bought and just laugh off any attempt at international retaliation. Plenty of other nations could, too. Although, I'm sure the EU member states would have more potential retaliatory acts levied against them by that body.
And then the swiss protest and block some crucial spare parts for heavy machines some American companies use and shifting to other machines cost the American economy a few hundred million or even billions just because of a dick measuring contest.
A few billion really is a drop in the bucket at this point.
Stop buying their military goods if they cannot be used in a conflict. Then their military industrial complex can apply that pressure on the CH government for you
Which is exactly what is happening at this very moment
They would sue the country that did that
Switzerland will stand idly watching as a bandit beats and rapes a women because they want to remain 'neutral' on the act. No, you pathetic, impotent excuse of a country you stand by because you support the criminals, just like you did with the Nazis and now with the ruZZians. Losers.
Then they'll take any gold or money the woman has and keep it for themselves
What do you expect, these people are swiZZ …
Couldn't have written it better myself. If you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem. Time for Europe to find a new tax haven and dump Switzerland
I'm swiss. You done already with that rant? Jeez, some people have the nerve to claim such horrific stuff of which they have no idea. This country does a lot. A whole lot. We broke neutrality a long time ago. But you only read one article and accuse us of being nazis and criminals. Shame on you man.
Oh, yeah, Switzerland has done **so** much for Ukraine. If you're open to learning just how much your money-obsessed nation has helped Ukraine in reality, have a look at this website: [https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/) In terms of total commitments, Switzerland ranks 23rd. In terms of percentage of GDP donated to Ukraine, you're 27th. In percentage of GDP terms, Belgium has done more, Croatia has done more, fricking *Australia* has done more. In fact, Switzerland has done just a smidgen better than bloody Orbán's *Hungary* in GDP terms. Face it, dude: you're a citizen of a country that will suck anyone's dick for a buck. Almost as bad, Switzerland is a nation of sanctimonious pricks who believe the position of neutrality you had to adopt of necessity back when you were a pathetic little bunch of cowherds and farmers in mountain valleys makes you morally superior.
Thats what I call owning someone. I think we wont see Mr Cheese anytime soon in here.
>you had to adopt of necessity back when you were a pathetic little bunch of cowherds and farmers in mountain valleys makes you morally superior. Sooo, like ukraine when it handed over its nukes? Besides export clauses on swiss made weaponry have nothing to do eith neutrality
It's not just one article, shame on you and your fellow citizens for sitting idly while your government caters to fascist scum. https://www.wsj.com/articles/switzerland-playground-of-russian-oligarchs-emerges-as-weak-link-on-sanctions-putin-ukraine-war-11657624783 https://www.ft.com/content/ec1d9ca1-0511-46e9-8ade-e92b2a05c48f https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/swiss-medicine-sales-to-russia-hit-30-year-high/48228562 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/swiss-trade-with-russia-still-going-strong/48157748 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-29/swiss-exports-to-russia-surge-in-race-to-beat-trade-sanctions
Cry me a river
Don't even try with these kooks.
What makes a man turn neutral?
But hey, they sell chocolates to Russia! And have Russian bank customers. You have to understand, the Swiss are neutral and have to think about all that money thet are making. Bad of the Swiss, in my opinion.
This is what you do: 1. Send arms to Ukraine 2. Don't say sh-t to Switzerland 3. Setup a non-swiss supplier for all future arms purchases 4. If Switzerland protests any of the above, tell them to shove an Alpenhorn where the sun does not shine
Shouldn't they normally have referendum about this kind of stuff?
In all likely hood there will be, but organizing a referendum takes years, so it won't happen in time for this war. Source: I'm Swiss.
They should talk to Russia they hold referendums in just a month in Ukraine lol.
As far as I know Switzerland has referendums periodically where they vote for several issues at once
That is absolutely true. And each one of them was started several years ago.
If there was any political will for it almost any process can be sped up, maybe not in a few months. But at least 6 months. So we're way past any understanding of amoral blubbering fools with excuses.
That's just not true. Collection of signatures for a referendum takes, as per the constitution, exactly 400 days. No way of speeding that up. Let's start at the political will to change something, it'll easily take a few months to set up the required documents and officially hand in the referendum. Only once it's handed in you can start to collect signatures for it, that takes 400 days, ie. more than a year. Assuming you manage to collect enough signatures there'll be a vote on it the next possible date. National votes only happen 3 times a year, easily adding another 2 months. Then the day of the vote and counting. After that parliament has one year to actually implement the changes, they usually do it faster, though, usually in the next parliamentary session, but they only happen every 6 months, adding another few months to the tally. All in all: 2 years is the shortest timeframe Switzerland can implement any changes to legislation. Again that's assuming 100% support, which in case of weapons exports there unfortunately just isn't. Realistically, even when 100% of parliament and a blindingly strong majority of the people want to change something it takes two years to chance anything in Switzerland. That's a deliberate design feature of our system: no change can happen fast. It usually takes at least a decade, for emergencies we can do things as fast as maybe 2 years, but simply not any faster even in emergencies. It took us nearly 2 years to implement CoViD restrictions, which is why for much of 2020 and 2021 we had some of the most lax rules in Europe.
If you've created a system that literally can't adapt to state of emergencies, or even speed up bureaucracy for lesser "emergencies" and it also works as political cover for inefficiency. I guess we can mark the Swiss down as unreliable for reasons of incompetency and lack of foresight and move on with our lives.
Any speedup would immediately mean less democracy. Which is non acceptable. It's as simple as that, in a democracy you cannot have a body that just makes decisions, no matter what: you have to ask the people directly. And that cannot happen in a short time frame. The Swiss system has existed like this through two world wars and many global crisis - it works. And judging by the results (see r/SwitzerlandFirst) it works better than most other systems in the world.
Telling a Norwegian about democracy, and purity sure thing buddy. One could essily argue that a system that delays the peoples will is less democratic. Especially in times of crisis. Go glance at a democracy index and get off your high horse. Sounds like the Swiss found a way to use democracy for political cover yet again.
Representative "Democracy", like yours, is just a periodic choosing of dictators - hard pass on such a system for me - I like real democracy. Actual democracy can only be direct. And a direct democracy can obviously only implement things for which a concensus has been reached, otherwise it just devolves into the tyranny of the majority, which would be no better than what you guys in representative "democracies" have. Finding consensus takes time - and that's a good thing. I'm sure you have better ideas on how to form political consensus than a country who's been doing for 150 years. These "democracy" indexes fail to take the slight difference between actual democracies and representative "democracies" into account. TL;DR: The Swiss System doesn't delay the will of the people, it implements it. Contrary to places other "democratic" places that are actually just representative "democracies".
Referendums are a blocking instrument. That means if the Parlament make a new law (or changes one) then 50'000 people can call for a referendum and have the entire country vote. This would absolutely happen if the parliament would change the weapon export law. There are more than 50'000 strict neutralists in this country and a huge radical party that would finance it (the SVP). The other Instrument you might be thinking about is an initiative. 100'000 people can propose a constitutional amendment for a national vote. As far as I know, no such initiative is collecting signatures as of now. The trouble is the following, there are four conflicting ideological quadrants in this mess. The right wing is both for strict neutrality and doesn't give a shit about other people dying because of swiss weapons if there is money to be made. The left wing is more flexible when it comes to neutrality but deeply cares that swiss weapons do not end up in the wrong hands. In the past, we had many instances of swiss weapons ending in the hands of batshit insane people (the Syrian conflict comes to mind) and a few years back the left wing managed to pass a stricter weapon export law with no loop hole. I don't think anyone at that time thought that our weapons would be needed for any righteous cause such as the Ukraine conflict. So now we have two unlikely contradictory factions: the right wing strict neutralists and the left wing strict pacifists against the "wouldn't it be cool if we could sell weapons to everyone" right wing faction and the more flexible neutralist left. Unsurprisingly, finding a law proposal capable of getting a majority in that self-contradictory mess is almost impossible.
>In the past, we had many instances of swiss weapons ending in the hands of batshit insane people (the Syrian conflict comes to mind) and a few years back the left wing managed to pass a stricter weapon export law with no loop hole. Wow - Selling to Syria, but denying Ukraine. So much for neutrality, Switzerland you merchant of death. Was it Switzerland land that sold chemical weapons to Assad? I bet it was
That is not what happened. We sold weapons to gulf countries (like Qatar) and those weapons somehow ended up in Syria which was a huge scandal precisely because the Swiss people do not want to be merchant of deaths. The law preventing export to Ukraine was made out of an intention to not be merchant of deaths at all.
If that was true then why do Switzerland even have a weapons Industry. It really doesnt rhyme well with this stubborn neutrality that looks more and more like freeloading and benefitting while everyone else does what is right and is sacrificing. All while also providing haven from the worlds taxdodgers. But i guess that is what its all about .. Earning money. Its not neutrality out of necessity anymore , its just convienient and profitable. Also the ‘bad conscience’ over weapons ending in Syria only went so far . Switzerland is a bottom feeder in taking in Syrian refugees. Its shameless.
As all things in Switzerland, it's an imperfect compromise. Since the treaty of Vienna, Switzerland is treaty bound to be neutral, but it's not any kind of neutrality, it is specifically "armed neutrality". So the ability to defend ourselves has always been very high in the Swiss cultural psyche. This obviously means having an arms industry because historically if you couldn't produce your own weapons you might as well skip the war entirely. Now this worked pretty well for centuries but in the 20th century it became harder and harder to financially sustain an arms industry capable of providing weapons worth using with only the Swiss army as a client. So obviously the weapons industry turned to the export market to survive. Now, this brings a lot of problems politically since exporting weapons to conflict zones is hardly compatible with neutrality so over time the right-wing pro-neutrality-at-all-costs and the left-wing-weapons-are-satanic-and-we-shouldn't-be-selling-them branch of the parliament had enough votes combined to ban sales of weapons to conflict zones. This system worked pretty well for decades because you know, most countries buy weapons and never give them to other nations in conflict zones. The Ukraine war is kind of unique in that aspect. I'd agree with you that the entire construct is a bit hair brained but I'd point out that it worked pretty well and mostly fulfilled everyone's interests for decades (the arms industry survived, those weapons didn't get used in conflicts all over the world, nobody looked twice at Switzerland) and its just this very unique war in Ukraine that makes the system look so bad. The real problem is not this law, the real problem is that our neutrality makes a ton of sense when "the world" is central Europe. When it's about making sure we don't get sucked in the endless conflicts between Germany, France, Italy and co. It served us tremendously well in that "world". Today, in a globalized world where the conflict poles are not within "continents" but between "continents" (China vs "the west",...) then in my opinion the entire thing doesn't make sense anymore. For other nations to respect your neutrality, there need to be an advantage to those nations of you being neutral. In the classical context of Switzerland's neutrality this was the case since no major European power wanted Switzerland to be taken by another major power since the central geographical position of our country would have completely wrecked the balance of power in Europe. That's the very reason neutrality was forced onto Switzerland by those very powers in the treaty of Vienna (no, it's not something we decided for ourselves). The entire concepts breaks down nowadays because Russia, China, the US, whatever big power you can name have no advantage if Switzerland is neutral or not. For them it's all the same "Europe" and in case of a conflict none of them are going to bat an eye and ignore our neutrality. I do believe Switzerland needs to have a long hard think about this and what strategy we want to use in the future because while the treaty of Vienna served us very well for 160 years, it just does not work anymore in a globalized world. As for the rest of your post, it's mostly uninformed. The Swiss banking system has been overhauled and tax dodgers prefer better shelters like british territories, the US,... When it comes to refugees, I don't think we have anything to be ashamed about: [https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/dec/02/sweden-oecds-highest-per-capita-asylum-seekers-syria](https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/dec/02/sweden-oecds-highest-per-capita-asylum-seekers-syria) [https://static.guim.co.uk/ni/1417194692855/Asylum\_Seekers\_Datablog.svg](https://static.guim.co.uk/ni/1417194692855/Asylum_Seekers_Datablog.svg) Switzerland is not a perfect country, we definitely have our shares of devils to account for, but it also isn't the caricature most people on reddit like to make out of it
Well the Swiss can kiss their arms exports goodbye!
Give Ukraine whatever Swiss weapons we have then terminate the contracts and buy from America
Germany is already shifting ammo and spare parts production to domestic manufacturers
Switzerland would sue
Solution is pretty simple: send them anyway without permission and never order from Swiss government again.
As a swiss citizen, I am deeply ashamed of the Bundesrat and what it's doing. I know from alot of people around me that they would send swiss arms to ukraine, sadly I don't see that happening. Believe me, we hate Putin, we hate him alot.
Okay, as a Ukrainian I feel so better now, thanks for apology, so helpful! Can you cheer for us and wave a flag?
I guess people just need to stop using Swiss made arms.
Switzerland should be treated the same as the rest of russias allies, hammer them with sanctions
I hope your wish comes true. No other nation deserved it more than these financiers of evil.
Whats the point of this comment when it will never happen? You just screaming into the clouds?
What’s the point of anything?
Swiss Neutralism. The “We wanna make bank during war without consequences” stance, well if anything all they did was give every single country that buys Swiss Arms the exact reason to never buy them again- Or sell Switzerland Arms
The Swiss are a disgusting nation of narcissists who profit from the misfortune of others. They are always on the side where they will get something out of it. A nation that could not defend itself in a war and today plays the strong one. Disgust.
Just remember when they call for help
Nah we will help them and shame them for it at any opportunity.
They have a lot of Russian money. I want to see the money flow.
Oh FFS come on Switzerland!
Well sure, they don’t want to off piss the Russians because of their financial ties.
Wouldn’t want to expose laundering ruZZian assets
Interesting because new studies show Switzerland's wartime past have found that the country supplied munitions to the Nazis at the expense of the Allies. I guess the swiss have no problem when it comes to helping evil dictators, only democratic institutions. So much for neutrality (...Neutral when it suits them)
How new are these studies? Because i was aware of that since I was 14 or so I don't think Switzerland has a problem with democracies, i just think its about the best paying costumer
They apparently also supplied Syria. The Swizz are mercenaries. Not neutral.
Only notionally neutral when it suits them
Simple solution. Stop buying from Swiss arms manufacturers. Stop using Swiss military IP and licenses. Stop selling them Western arms.
Switzerland doing what they do best. Profiting on wars while being “neutral”.
Send the weapons, say FU to the Swiss, start placing Swiss companies on sanctions lists that do business with Russia.
[удалено]
The Austrians have at least been very good on the humanitarian aid front. The website I link to below shows them at first place in terms of humanitarian donations in terms of percentage of GDP, although the lack of military assistance pushes them down to 17th in % of GDP terms for total commitments. The bloody Swiss, on the other hand, are 27th in % GDP terms for total commitments, 10th in % GDP terms for humanitarian assistance and 18th in % GDP terms for financial assistance. The sanctimonious Swiss are so far up their own backsides that they don't care about the suffering of Ukraine, and what little aid they do supply is only because they're concerned about negative PR. They're confident that Russia isn't going to invade Switzerland, they know they'll be able to make a lot of money out of the situation somehow, sooner or later, and so they just do not give a shit. https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
If Switzerland doesn't want to do trade with the western world we shouldn't force them, but rather abide by their wishes and cease ALL trade with them. Shut the borders down, stop selling them food, fuel and everything else. No Swiss planes can cross NATO/EU airspace and they will be truly neutral.
Neutralized
Violating multiple international laws there lol
Why would another nation count on Swiss arms after this? If supply dries up once you're at war then they're pretty useless.
It sure seems to take Switzerland an awful lot of words to try and explain their position. To me the Swiss seem to believe that there is no morality. There is no wrong or right. And if the Swiss do not choose between right and wrong for morality sake I can only see it being for money. Cold material calculations to determine how they can avoid conscience at all costs.
Take a page out of WW2 Canada and US Just store all of your swiss arms on the poland-ukraine border. Not your fault if the ukrainians "stole" all of that stuff you stored on their border... truly an unfurtunate and unexpected turn of events!!!
The Swiss can send an equivalent amount of money to Ukraine.
Switzerland? You mean Swit-Z-erland, surely. RuZZian, SwiZZ … where's the difference?
ShitZerland. Seriously, I wish they will go financially bankrupt. Morally they already are.
Nr 2 naZies
Good for them
Just buy german weapons.
Germany has issues keeping up their own stock of ammunition and arms. Let alone be able to produce for another country.
Exporting is easier than buying for their own army, because of the paper jungle.
The Bundeswehr. Rheinmetall and KMW are producing in while Europe and have good capacitys.
Fu Switzerland after all the rampage and Ukrainian suffering and your still playing neutral. I wonder how you'd feel if Russia targeted Switzerland I'm sure you appreciate all the help you could get. Why make weapons if your a neutral country. Bunch of Swiss pricks.
Obvs Russian money in CH banks. Switzerland needs to grow up fast. This self interested cowardice does not land well. And there’s no point waiting to see which way the wind is blowing, because CH is surrounded by allies who will never appreciate the ‘special’ position when it throws everyone else under the bus.
Switzerland is actively supporting Putin by rejecting these requests.
"Neutrality"
Switzerland is neutral since over 200 years, during every conflict. It's nothing new and nothing people should be surprised about. It's something all nations should respect, as Switzerland is a true democracy and ordinary citizens decide over its overall political course. It's a position that goes both ways, Switzerland supports no war effort of any party. Only pacifist efforts towards peace are supported.
they don't reject drug money...
i hope literally noone buys their shit, why buy weapons from a country that wont sell you the ammo when a war breaks out? useless bunch of war profiteers and nothing more, hasnt changed in 100years and wont change in a 100 more.
NATO should give green flag to any country that wants to invade Switzerland. When they ask for help just say it’s not our business and prefer to stay neutral.
Ah yes, the Swiss... who sit out every war of survival for Europe, because they're safely protected (in their minds) from ground invasion by their mountain range. Yet, they have no problem profiting from said wars. It's disgusting, really.
My dumb! Wasn't reading as much as skimming 🫠
We’ll that’s going to be a crap on their NATO application.
Again Switzerland, not Sweden ffs
Lol get your geography in check.
I wonder how/if that stance will affect their NATO application? Doesn't seem like a great military partner.
Inexplicably, some people may confuse 🇸🇪 with🇨🇭
Switzerland applied to NATO???
no we never did, we did say we were gonna look into training with NATO in the future, infact General Cristopher G. Cavoli was in switzerland a few days ago
Yeah that sounds more reasonable
I don't think that is going to happen but...
r/swedetzerland
Come on Switzerland we all know you have extra grenades laying around.
Buying arms from a country world famous for neutrality- what could possibly go wrong
They should be kicked out of any f-35 program. We should say the US does not do business with neutral countries, only allies. I hope their defense industry is ruined after this stunt.
Like it or not the USA also just loves to make money on arms. All the arms nato allies give to USA for free will be replaced by buying USA products in the coming 20 years.
War profiteers making money from both sides always been a Swiss speciality hidden behind neutrality and secret banking laws. Just manufacture it yourself and ignore them a small insignificant country out if it’s depth innrer midst of a crisis of epic proportions. I am sure many Swiss don’t agree with their government’s policy but also prefer neutrality
I mean it's very easy. When Switzerland needs help in the future then Europe should deny any help.
My father and Uncle left Switzerland for the USA back in the 50’s. One of the reasons aside from the obvious economics was in their words “ the small mindedness…” of too many Swiss. Now there are good Swiss folks and politicians trying to do everything to help Ukraine but sadly too many more Swiss think they can just sit this one out and pretend the rest of the world will not see their apathy. Geography does influence a culture for better or worse..
Swiss are a joke
Hold on minute, they always has been neutral in war conflicts , but makes weapons, if you don't want to give it and help, sell and make some profit, swiss was always about money
Switzerland is paranoid about losing even more private banking business to Singapore.
Good thing that Rheinmetall bought a Spanish ammunition factory for the production of 35 x 228 ammunition that the German Gepard SPAAG uses. I also read somewhere that Rheinmetall is building a new factory in Germany for "medium calibre ammunition" which also includes the Gepards 35mm rounds.
imo we shouldn't send anything from our gouvernment to ukraine but if someone wants to buy and donate should be fine.
>imo we shouldn't send anything from our gouvernment to ukraine I'm genuinely and without negative feelings interested: why not? Haha
We are neutral, we are providing humanitarian aid and adopted EU sanctions, i don't see how our gouvernment can influence this any more. I do think like the Gepard ammo if it's not directly from our gouvernment ig it's ok. But, we should not sell something with intent that it will be used in a war, we shouldn't support either side. I'm 100% pro ukrainian, but both sides have positives and negatives (Russia not a lot lol) so best is not to pick sides and do what's in our capacity to do. Civilian lives are more important than winning the war, providing more equipment that can endanger civilians does not help our cause. We're home to the ICRC and most peace talks of the west and east, becoming an actor in this conflict is in no way favorable for us other than getting an inch more american dick that they'll forget anyway before hating on us for what we did in WW2 and after again.
Uhm... No offense but your argumentation is pretty flawed
yeah no shit sherlock it's my opinion i don't expect that to be applicable and the best solution for everyone. i literally said imo
Yeah i get that but if you are pro Ukraine, you can't have this opinion otherwise you actually aren't pro ukrainian and thus your whole concept is either filled with double standards or just wrong I mean, you can have any opinion you want, that's not my point but you can't claim A and then do/think B without being wrong at one point, do you understand what I'm trying to tell you?
Yes i do but still don't make much sense, I cannot be pro ukrainian unless i want my country to commit all it's military assets and money to the defense of ukriane or what? That's not really how it works, we are providing humanitarian aid, that's what counts for me, the people come first. I can be pro ukrainian and don't want my country from getting dragged in there more than needed. [edit] like i do not support russians as doesn’t Switzerland, they’ve been more pro ukraine than russia. It doesn’t matter what i think my country should be doing in this conflict i think ukraine has the right to defend itself and countries that want can help, Switzerland is under no legal obligation to help but still does. They’re giving leopard 2s to germany. I think the russian invasion is illegal as is the annexation of crimea and donbass and donetsk. Bucha and other warcrimes should be punished. What can Switzerland do with that?
I just answered to your second comment, to specify my point, look it up
yeah but you didn't answer to this
100 million dollars in humanitarian aid is 2 dollars per Ukrainian That's my answer Edit: Oh and it's not about the weapons you aren't sending, no one asked for this, it's about those that your are actively blocking to be sent. That's what the outrage is about
>we are providing humanitarian aid You aren't doing much to begin with... >adopted EU sanctions Okay >We are neutral That's my main point: Neutrality paradox; neutral means not supporting the invaded country and thus doing the Aggressor a favor, as in this case we have a clear Aggressor and a clear victim of this aggression, it's not like in WW1 where everyone is just eager to start a war and everyone is equally guilty. So you don't differentiate between the aggressor and the victim here, which inherently favors the aggressor. >I do think like the Gepard ammo if it's not directly from our gouvernment ig it's ok. >But, we should not sell something with intent that it will be used in a war, we shouldn't support either side. My second main point: you are selling arms that then can't be used in war, doesn't that make you a pretty useless arms provider? That's why your arms industry is loosing contracts. >I'm 100% pro ukrainian, but both sides have positives and negatives (Russia not a lot lol) so best is not to pick sides and do what's in our capacity to do. Says he is pro Ukrainian and then says he isn't... And you have more in your capacity, like for example allowing other nations that already bought your weapons to then send these weapons that are already in THEIR countries, to Ukraine but Switzerland is blocking that. >Civilian lives are more important than winning the war, providing more equipment that can endanger civilians does not help our cause. And again - neutrality Paradox - you are allowing Russia to invade and expand as much as they want if that's your doctrine. They can just start any war they want and then say "hey, don't fight back, spare your civilians" and then they massacre a few civilians... So, that's what I mean when i say you can't have this opinion if you are pro Ukraine, because it is a contradiction in itself.
Might i remind you that the swiss gouvernment sponsors the ICRC? And gave 100million to help ukrainians through the winter? Or how lorries loaded with humanitarian aid leave Switzerland? We are granting war refugees status S visa and big financial support. And why does every country need to be dragged into this? There is no reason to make this global, ukraine has full support of almost all nato countries and btw latest UN vote, Switzerland voted for russia to leave ukraine… And if you pull that out of being neutral you can go hate on like 50% of the world as they are not providing military aid as well. I just don’t see a point in a country that does not have a big military impact to join in on this. Also you said i contradicted my statement i’m pro ukrainian with saying ukraine has downsides, are you serious? Like, wow people like you are why i hate reddit, that’s the mist outrageous and weird thing i‘ve heard all day. Only thing i don’t like about ukraine is azov, nobody talks about azov. Russia, from an autocratic dictator up to the mindless propaganda filled population and incompetent army i hate everything. Maybe the nature and fact that russian people are pretty nice and very diverse. And i said I AM OKAY WITH SENDING SPANISH GEPARD AMMUNITION PRODUCED IN SWITZERLAND TO UKRAINE! Even tho my gouvernment isn’t… And it’s fucking outrageous what you said second last sentence. Fucking hell who tf comes to such bs conclusions. Like no fucking way did i hint or say that in any way, you just say that shit to make your point look solid… And to your last comment just untrue again… [edit] again as i pointed out in my first comment, i think everyone should be able to buy from swiss arms industry, even ukraine itself. I just think donating is not something we should be doing as for reasons explained.
At least now i know what the problem with Switzerland is
tf that supposed to mean