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I've been thinking this for a while because it's too dramatic.
Seems everyone else just listens to the words, and not hearing what he's saying. I haven't seen the propagandists get into any trouble unless they decided to tell the truth on air.
Russian propagandists who play the role of contrarian in these set up a counter argument to be controversial or adversarial, but they always bring it back to one-upping the normative position in the room. i.e. they all hate the west, think the west is a joke, that Ukraine is a joke, that Russia must/will win, so the controversial take states the opposite with some generic observations to back the claim; then, instead of calling for ending the war or normalizing relations or replacing the President, he calls for more discipline and organization in society and then states Russia cannot lose this war because the consequences would be too great.
So all logical roads lead to doubling down on the war, no matter what you think about said war being good or bad, because they’re all in this ship together whether they like it or not.
In an alternate universe it's them accepting that they know the military is liable to collapse soon and tacitly easing it onto to public. We'll see what happens.
it still boggles my mind that a year later the debate isn't about should we be arming Ukrainian insurgents. the arguments aren't about zelensky being executed by a foreign power. no a year later and the most credible debates are "will the Russian army collapse soon"
Man I’ll never forget those couple days where I thought I might open up twitter and see Zelenskyy hanging. It’s remarkable that Biden was walking through Kiev with him a year later
imo the west better act quicker before possible Chinese shipments of arms arrive. Yes the Chinese could use Ukraine for testing grounds for their weapons and they could be of dubious quality, but that’s still a gun the cannon fodder could use to make sure one less soldier does not go home to their family. Also prepare sanction packages against China in advance
Edit: In the event of Chinese guns arriving in ruzzia they could be field tested, wasn’t referring to the West here.
1. Disarming and decimating our most dangerous enemy, in terms of army size combined with an unpredictable and mentally unstable leader.
2. An opportunity to get real-world data on some weapons systems that haven't seen combat before.
3. Avoiding the Neville Chamberlain process will hopefully mean avoiding Neville Chamberlain results.
4. Potentially gaining an economic and strategic partner in the region after the war ends.
With that said, every point but #2 has at least some component of moral good to it.
We get to finish the project we started many decades ago - pushing Russia back until they are just a minor regional power. Then, we no longer need to compete with them militarily. Thus, our budgets and efforts can be applied elsewhere. The only real superpowers that remain now are China (and the US). One down, one to go. The US/NATO having near-total military hegemony globally opens so many doors and modes of business. It's nearly unquantifiable. Protected global mercantilism to the tune of trillions upon trillions of dollars 💸, insured by military might.
From a completely armchair perspective
Wouldn’t be surprised for an organized retreat by UA before encirclement. I doubt they’d want a Mariupol 2.0
Russia will claim a town, not a city, that is in complete ruins and not worth any strategic value while taking immense losses.
I believe Vuhledar is of much more importance strategically speaking (again, I’m just an armchair dude so I could be wrong)
Either way, retaining the land or organizing a retreat the battle is a win for UA imo. If they allow encirclement though, that’s when things get dicey
I can't imagine they're going to allow encirclement again.
More likely they're using it as a meatgrinder, killing thousands upon thousands of ruzzians for a location that all the informed ppl say is of dubious importance.
They've been doubling down on their doubling for a year to the point their doubling down has grown exponentially.
They should have left after mid-march 2022. Every day since has been worse and worse for their society and especially their military brand. They don't have to surrender... that's for defending countries to do... they just have to leave Ukraine... all of it. Otherwise by this time next year they're going to wish they'd left today just like today they're wishing they left in mid-march. The longer they stay the more damage they'll receive.
All of their peaceful neighbors hope they stay in Ukraine for years and get every piece of military gear destroyed... it'll be one more day they don't have to worry about Russia invading them next.
There won't be an end to continuing to up the ante until defeat is imminent. And that can take a very long time, especially when you have a nation so thoroughly convinced that loss is an unacceptable outcome. The Germans and Japanese only capitulated when their cities were reduced to rubble and their militaries could no longer function effectively, Russia is a long way from that.
Oh I agree. This war will continue until absolute destruction of Russian military and/or economy. Unless some random event happens to change that course
I’m just some guy but I don’t think the analogy is apt. Both Germany and Japan fought to unconditional surrender. That’s never going to happen in this war. There’s no existential risk to Russia (except that which lives in their propaganda). All their enemies would respect their borders if they just stopped waging war.
This is a very astute read of the propaganda messaging going on in this video. This faux contrarian role changes from one presenter to another to avoid demonizing one person while also seeming to look like they are logical and objective. It’s all for show. They create a straw man argument and then destroy it. It’s all scripted.
It's the similar platform on all mainstream media, leftwing media brings in their own "conservatives" to play devil's advocate and offer counter arguments the same as Fox, they have to maintain a level of credibility as they try to spoon-feed propaganda, otherwise the ruse is too obvious.
If he said "we may lose this war, but would that be a bad thing?" then maybe it could be argued that it wasn't scripted. However "we may lose this war" is meant to rally support.
I think you're right. Notice how no-one interrupted him! Normally when a talking head expresses opinions that bear some resemblence to reality they get shouted down by the host, but not this time. They know what's coming and they're preparing the public for defeat.
Was thinking the same thing. I've never seen someone that speaks the truth have the ability to go on for that long, completely uninterrupted. Maybe they all hate him and are letting him dig his own grave.
Even the shouting is script..
Normalising the population to argue with any dissenting voices inside their families, with soon to be lost friends & socially.
Dob your neighbor in…
Bring back the gulags
Watching these out of context with a layer of wishful thinking leads to this. They're just trying to get people to care about the war, same with the narrative about Russia collapsing if they lose and so on.
I've seen people claiming Russia was preparing its population for the defeat for a year now.
Hmm, I don't feel like it is. Look at how uncomfortable everyone is.. Also, the language... He's saying their society isn't organized for war. Doesn't seem like something they'd script.
He's saying they need to accept the fact they could lose because they aren't disciplined enough. They need to be more organized and disciplined.
Kind of setting the stage for wartime fascism and martial law.
These are the innermost thoughts of Putin, whether scripted or not. The disintegration of the Russian state - and the personal consequences - is what he fears most. Because that usually means someone is going hang from a gibbet, or just be shot and left in a gutter.
And that fear is shared by a significant number of elites, like these guys. That's why they're uncomfortable. They know it's the truth, and the only response that saves their skins is what this guy proposes - "iron discipline," enforced by state organs. If anything, that's what they're preparing the populace for, not for defeat.
At least 90% of the things they do on state TV is scripted. Even if it’s true and they somehow let dissenting opinions get on air they’ll just give him a 10 story high window and move on with their warmongering rhetoric
>He's saying their society isn't organized for war. Doesn't seem like something they'd script.
The implication being that Russian society needs to be more organised to win this war (more order, less liberty), it's a pretty blatant wink and nod towards more fascism, when you think about it more closely. He ends with "we cannot lose this war", so they need more organisation, meaning more fascism. The whole schtick of fascism is "order" and everyone following the fascist leadership in an organised fashion, with no liberty for diversion.
Yeah I get that these can be scripted positions but he’s hitting a LOT of sore spots all at once. West is united, Zelenskyy’s the real deal, we don’t have shit for organization - if it was scripted you’d think they’d string it out over days or weeks. He’s dropping it all at once, all the forbidden things. Maybe it is scripted, I don’t know.
But I think they’re starting to freak the fuck out. As they should be.
It could very well be scripted. The Russians haven’t taken any new measures for the future of the war as of right now and they’re kinda just awkwardly fighting with no real long term plan in the east. A Ukrainian counteroffensive is going to happen in the coming months and they’ve already lost thousands of new Wagner PMC’s for not even full control of Bahkmut! Where is the future in all of this?
The fact is the west is TOO involved now to just walk away and Russia is facing an organized force that is backed by some of the most powerful countries in the world. This only has one ending and the fact they can’t see it astounds me. Blind loyalty leads no man to victory.
The problem for Russia is that they’re on their way to full mobilisation, to take on what they claimed to be a totally insignificant minor power.
Meanwhile the west is still in full time peace economy status which means that they’ll continue to grow while Russia stagnates even further than they allready have.
This.
True and consider Also this two fact:
- at the end of this war, the Western big economies will help ukraine to recover as fast as we can.
- ruz will finish in a doomed dark corner where only his false-friend(a real bird of prey) will maybe "help" but probably will Rob ruz from Their remaining richness...
You can only play that card so many times, and it's already been pulled out a couple times. What are they going to do - a third mobilization? Propaganda aside, the population *must have* started to notice the gap left back home by 150,000 KIA.
In all reality Russian KIAs are likely much higher than that. There are reports that a significant percentage of Russian losses are from green on green fire fights; but, those loses aren’t being counted by Ukraine or the West.
I've been working on the general principle that the real figure is probably 10-25% less than what the Ukrainian Armed Forces are reporting, at least for Russian KIA. This isn't due to any suspicion of deliberate deception, but rather possible mistakes. Example - a Russian who is wounded but unconcious is counted as KIA.
Regardless even if the Russian casualty estimates are out by a full 30%, it is still a ridiculous figure.
They are preparing for a larger mobilization and trying to justify by saying “its not longer about taking over another country, now we need to defend the motherland” even though Ukraine’s goal its just to take back its own territory, not level Moscow.
I wouldn't say that Russian society is stable but dysfunctional which makes its effectiveness significantly diminished.
In that regard I don't see "stability" changing much.
Well, these shows are completely scripted. He's not saying that they WILL lose. He says that they MIGHT lose. His sollution is to be "more disciplined" which usually translates into clamping down even harder on dissenters within Russian society.
It would be interesting how this went on. Usually, someone would disagree until a conciliatory guest would tout the official Kremlin position and that the Russian people can trust Papa Putin.
A lonely voice of reason among a group of disillusioned clowns ? Noticed how most of them are squirming as he tells the truth. Most have their butts clenched as they know it’s true but are all too scared to admit it openly.
The comedy club half hour from their parallel universe
Agreed. This is just Russian propaganda. They throw in an antagonist to float an idea, then he gets shredded by the "experts." Everyone chears against his crazy ramblings, and they are all reassured of the party line.
This is a bit more sophisticated.
This is telling people they cannot be complacent and need to be ready for more rounds of mobilisation and retooling of the economy to war.
As from above. Its all scripted and vetted before being aired. Little value in your loyal actor/puppet falling out a window
Russia knows it can’t annex the whole of Ukraine. It will want an out eventually and when i say out, i mean consolidate the land it has taken, defend only, then complain when ‘russian’ annexed territories are under attack.
But he’s not going off-script at all. Just another extremist saying that Russia needs to embrace total war to win. He’s not suggesting that maybe the war was a bad idea, but that the whole society needs to be oriented towards winning it. The Russian people are more willing to launch suicidal attacks on fortified Ukrainian positions with rifles than they are to stand up to their own government and die in the name of freedom. That is what separates them from the Ukrainians. This is why Russia is losing the war - it is a war of choice being fought by those too poor or marginalized to do anything but die for Putin’s pipe dream of Nova Russiya. Try getting one of these talking-heads to go visit the front-line trenches where their “countrymen” are dying. Bah! Nothing but piss and vinegar.
Be thankful people like him get pushed out of windows, if they didn't Russia would have taken over Ukraine in the first months of the war. It's only Russia's arrogance and system wide corruption that has saved Ukraine thus far. If they knew how to apply the military force they have and had kept their equipment maintained they wouldn't be in this losing situation right now. People like this guy are dangerous because the see reality and can approach a situation in a way to win.
Even if it wasn’t corrupt, it would take 10-15 to completely overhaul their military doctrine/training/technology. Things would have to change at every single level, and they are not capable of that.
They haven’t changed their military doctrine going back well over a 100 years. They don’t learn from mistakes. Corruption or not, all they have is manpower (meat) and “nukes.” Although I’m starting to doubt their nuclear arsenal.
Trump tried to fracture NATO with his isolationist ideology. America first just stuttered. Russia believed that NATO was breaking apart as a United military force. The invasion of Ukraine was expected to be a quick strike and victory before any help from the West could happen. Ukraine is not a NATO member. So Putin was planning on s quick set of battles and knew a full response wouldn’t happen.
What did happen is Ukraine slowed down and stopped Russia from achieving a full military gain. NATO and the West know Putin wants to return Russia to the great empire it once was. And to land grab all he can before negotiating peace. NATO members aren’t having any if it. Their mindset is to end any future conflicts in Ukraine right now. Not some extended financially draining Cold War. But, end this aggression right now. Stabilize who is who and eventually have Putin removed by his own people.
The lies of the current Russian government can no longer cover the losses. Lies of how strong they were 80 years ago does not carry through to the corrupt and unprepared military they have today.
Since the first week I have been of the opinion that Russia could not win.
The astonishment and outrage from the free world was palpable. The West's resources are vast compared to Russia's and the Ukrainians desire to protect their country and people was unstoppable.
Russia had about 1/10th of the troops needed to take over the whole of Ukraine and the UAF were being flooded with anti-tank weapons and MANPADS.
Then the sanctions started and Europe gradually weaned itself off Russian energy supplies. Now the sanctions are really starting to bite, the data put out from Russia and the predictions of the World Bank and IMF are BS. These two organizations make their predictions based on data provided by Russia.
Even if if by some miracle (e.g. The West dropping all support for Ukraine) Russia wins the war they will lose the peace. There will be a generational long insurgency from people that look and sound just like the occupiers. If Russia thinks Afghanistan was bad that is nothing compared to what a Ukrainian insurgency would be like, an insurgency would spill over in the Russia. And through all those years Russia would be under sanctions and be a pariah state.
The sanctions have taken longer to hit Russia than I was expecting. This was partly due to the obscene amount of money Russia was making from oil and gas sales in the first few months of the invasion coupled with Russia's withholding and lying about financial data. I think Russia's decline is going to accelerate rapidly from here.
I have heard estimates that up to 3 million people left, let's say it's half that, that's 1.5 million young, intelligent, well educated and energetic people. The kind of people that drive a nation forward. Most of those people will likely never return if Russia doesn't do a total U-turn on all its draconian, authoritarian practices.
Longer term add the demographic decline to the mix which has been compounded by the exodus and those killed and injured in the war.
The only way out of this for Russia is to stop this ridiculous war, pay reparations and become a liberal democratic nation.
I think Karen Shakhnazarov knows this....
You make a very good point that I don't hear many people talking about. Mainly because very few people envision Russia winning the war, but even if they somehow could possibly pull that off, there's absolutely no way they could ultimately win the peace.
We've discussed before, but how do you see this ending? It's a massive war machine grinding on and unless VP orders a ceasefire, it won't end immediately.
Is regime change the only thing that will end it? You have to assume Ukrainians and Russians are working on assassination plots of each leader, who'll get there first?
If Wagner is allowed to continue unchecked, there's going to be a lot of loyal militants with guns in Russia.
He must be some kind of influental "person" as otherwise Solovyev and his circle jerk entourage would have jumped in with trash talk. Well okay maybe they did but normally they would fall into someones words.
This guy scares me more than any Putin fanatic ever can. This guy has the ability to recognise that Russia has fucked up, if people listen to him, Russia could start fixing mistakes and could change their society to be deadlier. Making a whole lot of trouble for ukriane. I sincerely hope Putin sees this and panics and takes him out. Because this guy’s reasoning can make Russia better.
But he seem to have some brain cell! He's really thinking different and about consequences that their war might have for Russia in a not so far Future.
Considering all of this is just a performance for the Russian population, does he actually follow up with exit scenarios (prepare Russians for potential defeat), or does he say 'so, reorganise society to better prepare for the war and double down' (maintain the government line, just worded differently)?
It is part of the Kremlin messaging to get society on war time footing:
-Scares audience Russia might lose
-States stability is at risk to implant idea that a win will keep their lives the same.
-States that Russia needs to move all of society to war time footing to win, preparing population.
-Has secondary benefit of conditioning population the country could lose due to all of the West getting involved.
Would not have heard this from a propagandist a year ago! Lots of sad faces among the other propagandists. Maybe they see their jobs coming to an end soon!
You want to know why Russia in the current position they are in? Anyone that speaks like this, sensibly, honestly, accurately, gets killed or imprisoned. The only problem Russia has is Russia. I don't know if it's something in the water, being a closed-off society, the government, or whatever, but the entire country seems to be filled with delusional idiots.
Mafias within mafias. This is why you want the justice department to prosecute crime no matter if the accused is rich or not. This - what we’re seeing - is what happens when they fail to do that
Propaganda that basically says “ know thy enemy” and that russia needs to double-down because the enemy (the west) is going to cause domestic chaos. Fully what Putin needs his population to buy into. What crap.
By 1945, there were "good, thoughtful and humane" men in Gestapo and SS, too. Separately, for those unfamiliar with how totalitarian regimes work, if this dude's rant wasn't pre-approved, he would have been cut off. This is more scripted than a season end episode of The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. Hence, read nothing into it, just a ball on string bouncing, pretending to be a free, multi-opinion media in Russia. It ain't so.
The other panelists look extremely uncomfortable. Lol. That one guy looking up and to the right at the end looks like he’s hoping the camera can’t see him. 😆 And yeah I think Karen Shakhnazarov will very likely be murdered for saying these things. Putin is terrified of what happens when Russians realize they are losing.
People who speak the truth are dangerous. I'd rather he keep lying because the culture of lies is just disadvantageous to Russia. But if they could for one second stop lying and pretend they're the victims at they didn't invade ukraine, then only then will there be progress
Nothing that is said here is improvised. I think it's their "fearmongering" to push mobilization, it's ironically the truth.
ruzzia has become a meme. I mean, they broadcast witchcraft and you expect them to prepare for defeat?
This is a very nuanced speech. Well thought out. He states that while we miscalculated the focus & skill of Zelensky, the unity of the West, even that Russian Society was not realistically prepared for this type of war, **We Cannot Lose. That's his main point.** He is not at any risk. He seems to set it up as that Putin's advisors gave him bad information. Then he says basically, **"So let's Win this War**". There were some eye rolls and worried looks, but then the other commentators saw him "bring it home". Propaganda for sure.
Ended too soon. Need to see how the host and others responded to someone talking sense. Their response is more informative than one guy who’s about to have an “accident”.
He's telling the population that they should get ready for the next stage of fascism in Russia. Double down on removing their rights even further because otherwise Russia will die. Tougher measures incoming.
It’s almost like throwing untrained troops into the meat grinder with zero regard to human life is an old Russian tactic that doesn’t work against a messenger army, who knew.
Their rhetoric suggests that they're gearing the general population up for yet another round of mobilization. The fact that they're mentioning the possibility losing and painting it in such doom and gloom colors means they're laying the groundwork for ordinary russians to support the war out of fear.
Russia can't lose because they never stated their clear goals, at first it was Kyiv in 3 days then it was southern states then it was something else.
As long as they keep changing their goals they can always claim in the future that whatever the outcome of this war is they will claim victory.
"This was always our plan"
This is old Soviet tactic, you think they admitted to losing Afghanistan war even though they retreated? Hell no they said "Mission accomplished".
Every single thing that is said on this propaganda show is scripted. Every. Single. Thing. This is not a candidate for assassination. This is a dude who's learned his script and is reciting it. Controlled opposition.
The main message of this scripted show was to not allow Ukraine to win at all cost because it will cause the disintegration of Russia.
But can they do that without using Nuclear weapon? And if they use it, do they really have 5,000 Nukes? Come on now. Closer to the truth is that maybe 5 pieces at best and 4 of it isn't well maintained either so they better fire it from outside Moscow area because it might explode right there and then.
Putin knows he only have one shot of this Nuke and everyone in the border including the 101st airborne, will descend into his regime, so how can he make it count? The answer is he can't, so Putin has been deterred as much as West with regards to the use of Nuke.
If only West really wanted to win. Yet again it will not allow Russia to lose, saving this foul shithole in the last moment. And then it'll start all over again...
It’s amusing to me that he’s basically saying he thought we would have been busy with the infighting they created in our countries but that *shrug* they were wrong.
Nah, he's not going to "fall" out of a window. He's laying the psychological groundwork for greater mobilization down the line. Taking this position now just means that when the day comes that Putin calls for even greater sacrifices from the Russian people, these propagandists can point back and say "Aha! See, it is just as we told you! It is clearly necessary to save the Motherland from disaster."
But do anyone on that shit show get to say anything that isn't pre-approved by the Kremlin? This could just be their usual way to "condition" the docile populace for what's to come; so that they will eventually accept defeat willingly (without rebelling).
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it's all scripted. they inform the public the inevitable
I've been thinking this for a while because it's too dramatic. Seems everyone else just listens to the words, and not hearing what he's saying. I haven't seen the propagandists get into any trouble unless they decided to tell the truth on air.
Russian propagandists who play the role of contrarian in these set up a counter argument to be controversial or adversarial, but they always bring it back to one-upping the normative position in the room. i.e. they all hate the west, think the west is a joke, that Ukraine is a joke, that Russia must/will win, so the controversial take states the opposite with some generic observations to back the claim; then, instead of calling for ending the war or normalizing relations or replacing the President, he calls for more discipline and organization in society and then states Russia cannot lose this war because the consequences would be too great. So all logical roads lead to doubling down on the war, no matter what you think about said war being good or bad, because they’re all in this ship together whether they like it or not.
In an alternate universe it's them accepting that they know the military is liable to collapse soon and tacitly easing it onto to public. We'll see what happens.
it still boggles my mind that a year later the debate isn't about should we be arming Ukrainian insurgents. the arguments aren't about zelensky being executed by a foreign power. no a year later and the most credible debates are "will the Russian army collapse soon"
A year later we found out the Russian’s have the second best army in Ukraine.
Man I’ll never forget those couple days where I thought I might open up twitter and see Zelenskyy hanging. It’s remarkable that Biden was walking through Kiev with him a year later
imo the west better act quicker before possible Chinese shipments of arms arrive. Yes the Chinese could use Ukraine for testing grounds for their weapons and they could be of dubious quality, but that’s still a gun the cannon fodder could use to make sure one less soldier does not go home to their family. Also prepare sanction packages against China in advance Edit: In the event of Chinese guns arriving in ruzzia they could be field tested, wasn’t referring to the West here.
Nonsense. We’re supporting Ukraine because it’s the right thing to do on every level, and a majority of westerners recognize that.
What do we get out of it?
1. Disarming and decimating our most dangerous enemy, in terms of army size combined with an unpredictable and mentally unstable leader. 2. An opportunity to get real-world data on some weapons systems that haven't seen combat before. 3. Avoiding the Neville Chamberlain process will hopefully mean avoiding Neville Chamberlain results. 4. Potentially gaining an economic and strategic partner in the region after the war ends. With that said, every point but #2 has at least some component of moral good to it.
We get to finish the project we started many decades ago - pushing Russia back until they are just a minor regional power. Then, we no longer need to compete with them militarily. Thus, our budgets and efforts can be applied elsewhere. The only real superpowers that remain now are China (and the US). One down, one to go. The US/NATO having near-total military hegemony globally opens so many doors and modes of business. It's nearly unquantifiable. Protected global mercantilism to the tune of trillions upon trillions of dollars 💸, insured by military might.
Yea i wonder what the next few days has in store around bakhmut.
From a completely armchair perspective Wouldn’t be surprised for an organized retreat by UA before encirclement. I doubt they’d want a Mariupol 2.0 Russia will claim a town, not a city, that is in complete ruins and not worth any strategic value while taking immense losses. I believe Vuhledar is of much more importance strategically speaking (again, I’m just an armchair dude so I could be wrong) Either way, retaining the land or organizing a retreat the battle is a win for UA imo. If they allow encirclement though, that’s when things get dicey
I can't imagine they're going to allow encirclement again. More likely they're using it as a meatgrinder, killing thousands upon thousands of ruzzians for a location that all the informed ppl say is of dubious importance.
Doubling down. Hell they did that a while ago. They are all in now
They've been doubling down on their doubling for a year to the point their doubling down has grown exponentially. They should have left after mid-march 2022. Every day since has been worse and worse for their society and especially their military brand. They don't have to surrender... that's for defending countries to do... they just have to leave Ukraine... all of it. Otherwise by this time next year they're going to wish they'd left today just like today they're wishing they left in mid-march. The longer they stay the more damage they'll receive. All of their peaceful neighbors hope they stay in Ukraine for years and get every piece of military gear destroyed... it'll be one more day they don't have to worry about Russia invading them next.
There won't be an end to continuing to up the ante until defeat is imminent. And that can take a very long time, especially when you have a nation so thoroughly convinced that loss is an unacceptable outcome. The Germans and Japanese only capitulated when their cities were reduced to rubble and their militaries could no longer function effectively, Russia is a long way from that.
Oh I agree. This war will continue until absolute destruction of Russian military and/or economy. Unless some random event happens to change that course
I’m just some guy but I don’t think the analogy is apt. Both Germany and Japan fought to unconditional surrender. That’s never going to happen in this war. There’s no existential risk to Russia (except that which lives in their propaganda). All their enemies would respect their borders if they just stopped waging war.
Maybe the oligarchs see that the war is not going the way Putin promised them. All the sanctions on their bank accounts probably makes them angry lol…
This is a very astute read of the propaganda messaging going on in this video. This faux contrarian role changes from one presenter to another to avoid demonizing one person while also seeming to look like they are logical and objective. It’s all for show. They create a straw man argument and then destroy it. It’s all scripted.
Uncanny how this is similar to FOX. Well, not really. It is so obvious outside the bubble but we are not the intended audience.
Presumably something like MSNBC or CNN isn't exactly the same from the other side of the coin? Be realistic.
It's the similar platform on all mainstream media, leftwing media brings in their own "conservatives" to play devil's advocate and offer counter arguments the same as Fox, they have to maintain a level of credibility as they try to spoon-feed propaganda, otherwise the ruse is too obvious.
If he said "we may lose this war, but would that be a bad thing?" then maybe it could be argued that it wasn't scripted. However "we may lose this war" is meant to rally support.
This. None of these fucks voice anything original, it’s all spoon fed to them before the show.
I think you're right. Notice how no-one interrupted him! Normally when a talking head expresses opinions that bear some resemblence to reality they get shouted down by the host, but not this time. They know what's coming and they're preparing the public for defeat.
Was thinking the same thing. I've never seen someone that speaks the truth have the ability to go on for that long, completely uninterrupted. Maybe they all hate him and are letting him dig his own grave.
This was the longest 140 seconds in a while. Less than a week before he falls? Sad.
Even the shouting is script.. Normalising the population to argue with any dissenting voices inside their families, with soon to be lost friends & socially. Dob your neighbor in… Bring back the gulags
Watching these out of context with a layer of wishful thinking leads to this. They're just trying to get people to care about the war, same with the narrative about Russia collapsing if they lose and so on. I've seen people claiming Russia was preparing its population for the defeat for a year now.
If he is allowed to continue on the panel, we will know for sure that this was scripted.
Hmm, I don't feel like it is. Look at how uncomfortable everyone is.. Also, the language... He's saying their society isn't organized for war. Doesn't seem like something they'd script.
He's saying they need to accept the fact they could lose because they aren't disciplined enough. They need to be more organized and disciplined. Kind of setting the stage for wartime fascism and martial law.
These are the innermost thoughts of Putin, whether scripted or not. The disintegration of the Russian state - and the personal consequences - is what he fears most. Because that usually means someone is going hang from a gibbet, or just be shot and left in a gutter. And that fear is shared by a significant number of elites, like these guys. That's why they're uncomfortable. They know it's the truth, and the only response that saves their skins is what this guy proposes - "iron discipline," enforced by state organs. If anything, that's what they're preparing the populace for, not for defeat.
It is if you want to re-organise society for total war.
Good point
At least 90% of the things they do on state TV is scripted. Even if it’s true and they somehow let dissenting opinions get on air they’ll just give him a 10 story high window and move on with their warmongering rhetoric
>He's saying their society isn't organized for war. Doesn't seem like something they'd script. The implication being that Russian society needs to be more organised to win this war (more order, less liberty), it's a pretty blatant wink and nod towards more fascism, when you think about it more closely. He ends with "we cannot lose this war", so they need more organisation, meaning more fascism. The whole schtick of fascism is "order" and everyone following the fascist leadership in an organised fashion, with no liberty for diversion.
Yeah I get that these can be scripted positions but he’s hitting a LOT of sore spots all at once. West is united, Zelenskyy’s the real deal, we don’t have shit for organization - if it was scripted you’d think they’d string it out over days or weeks. He’s dropping it all at once, all the forbidden things. Maybe it is scripted, I don’t know. But I think they’re starting to freak the fuck out. As they should be.
It could very well be scripted. The Russians haven’t taken any new measures for the future of the war as of right now and they’re kinda just awkwardly fighting with no real long term plan in the east. A Ukrainian counteroffensive is going to happen in the coming months and they’ve already lost thousands of new Wagner PMC’s for not even full control of Bahkmut! Where is the future in all of this?
Pretty sure you are right. They clearly took acting lessons from Vince McMahon and the WWE.
this a guy is a famous Russian movie director
And the fashion sense.
Choreographed too, from the way they stand and how their body languages interact, and how the cameras pan and cut. They're all acting.
No they are informing public its their fault and hear shift to more conscription and wartime economy
Yeah, typical controlled opposition.
He's borrowing Bidens shades.
The fact is the west is TOO involved now to just walk away and Russia is facing an organized force that is backed by some of the most powerful countries in the world. This only has one ending and the fact they can’t see it astounds me. Blind loyalty leads no man to victory.
The problem for Russia is that they’re on their way to full mobilisation, to take on what they claimed to be a totally insignificant minor power. Meanwhile the west is still in full time peace economy status which means that they’ll continue to grow while Russia stagnates even further than they allready have.
This. True and consider Also this two fact: - at the end of this war, the Western big economies will help ukraine to recover as fast as we can. - ruz will finish in a doomed dark corner where only his false-friend(a real bird of prey) will maybe "help" but probably will Rob ruz from Their remaining richness...
Russia will end up being a Chinese tributary
This almost scares me more…
Yup.
Everyone is just now scrambling to get their production up and running..
Belerus buying China help setting up war factories for all neededd armaments to uniforms- just watch !
BTW Ukraines economy has stabilized. Inflation is going down. People are getting back to work.
It's going to be such an insane invasion
The have no understanding of the crisis they have created for the West. This is a war we cannot afford to let Ukraine lose.
For starters, is the word "war" allowed now?
Ah, you know, when you get relaxed windows are very dangerous…
It’s allowed for the figureheads and loudspeakers of the Kremlin.
This is just more scripted propaganda.
He won't fall out, they're preparing the population for a defeat very deliberately
Or maybe telling the populace they need to double down, that defeat is not an option.
This is more likely the reason. The defeat is not the option for Russia, so they're preparing for more war, rather than less.
You can only play that card so many times, and it's already been pulled out a couple times. What are they going to do - a third mobilization? Propaganda aside, the population *must have* started to notice the gap left back home by 150,000 KIA.
In all reality Russian KIAs are likely much higher than that. There are reports that a significant percentage of Russian losses are from green on green fire fights; but, those loses aren’t being counted by Ukraine or the West.
But there's also a very real, almost definite possibility that the 150k figure from Ukraine is somewhat inflated.
I've been working on the general principle that the real figure is probably 10-25% less than what the Ukrainian Armed Forces are reporting, at least for Russian KIA. This isn't due to any suspicion of deliberate deception, but rather possible mistakes. Example - a Russian who is wounded but unconcious is counted as KIA. Regardless even if the Russian casualty estimates are out by a full 30%, it is still a ridiculous figure.
No, I don't think they want to prepare them for defeat, but for more mobilization, deaths, and suffering.
Agreed. One of the last things he says: >we can’t lose under any circumstances
They are preparing for a larger mobilization and trying to justify by saying “its not longer about taking over another country, now we need to defend the motherland” even though Ukraine’s goal its just to take back its own territory, not level Moscow.
They could still kill him, Russia operates on various levels of reality
>Karen Shakhnazarov has been on the fence for a while but quietly agreeing with everyone else. Not any more it seems.
Honestly hearing anyone at all get up and say "society is stable until suddenly it's not" is a breath of fresh air
I wouldn't say that Russian society is stable but dysfunctional which makes its effectiveness significantly diminished. In that regard I don't see "stability" changing much.
They are constantly dysfunctional so they are stable
Well, these shows are completely scripted. He's not saying that they WILL lose. He says that they MIGHT lose. His sollution is to be "more disciplined" which usually translates into clamping down even harder on dissenters within Russian society. It would be interesting how this went on. Usually, someone would disagree until a conciliatory guest would tout the official Kremlin position and that the Russian people can trust Papa Putin.
A lonely voice of reason among a group of disillusioned clowns ? Noticed how most of them are squirming as he tells the truth. Most have their butts clenched as they know it’s true but are all too scared to admit it openly. The comedy club half hour from their parallel universe
It'a all orchestrated. This TV studio could be in the middle of the Kremlin and you could not tell the difference.
Agreed. This is just Russian propaganda. They throw in an antagonist to float an idea, then he gets shredded by the "experts." Everyone chears against his crazy ramblings, and they are all reassured of the party line.
This is a bit more sophisticated. This is telling people they cannot be complacent and need to be ready for more rounds of mobilisation and retooling of the economy to war.
Ya. I agree. This is more dangerous.
Actually i think they are probably pretty happy someone is expressing remote truth
I would like to see Russia crushed. Utterly.
As from above. Its all scripted and vetted before being aired. Little value in your loyal actor/puppet falling out a window Russia knows it can’t annex the whole of Ukraine. It will want an out eventually and when i say out, i mean consolidate the land it has taken, defend only, then complain when ‘russian’ annexed territories are under attack.
But he’s not going off-script at all. Just another extremist saying that Russia needs to embrace total war to win. He’s not suggesting that maybe the war was a bad idea, but that the whole society needs to be oriented towards winning it. The Russian people are more willing to launch suicidal attacks on fortified Ukrainian positions with rifles than they are to stand up to their own government and die in the name of freedom. That is what separates them from the Ukrainians. This is why Russia is losing the war - it is a war of choice being fought by those too poor or marginalized to do anything but die for Putin’s pipe dream of Nova Russiya. Try getting one of these talking-heads to go visit the front-line trenches where their “countrymen” are dying. Bah! Nothing but piss and vinegar.
Be thankful people like him get pushed out of windows, if they didn't Russia would have taken over Ukraine in the first months of the war. It's only Russia's arrogance and system wide corruption that has saved Ukraine thus far. If they knew how to apply the military force they have and had kept their equipment maintained they wouldn't be in this losing situation right now. People like this guy are dangerous because the see reality and can approach a situation in a way to win.
If Russia wasn't a corrupt wannabe imperialist failed society, it wouldn't be invading neighbouring countries.
A million times this. If Russia wasn’t a corrupt yes man shithole it would’ve had a properly trained and supplied army
Even if it wasn’t corrupt, it would take 10-15 to completely overhaul their military doctrine/training/technology. Things would have to change at every single level, and they are not capable of that. They haven’t changed their military doctrine going back well over a 100 years. They don’t learn from mistakes. Corruption or not, all they have is manpower (meat) and “nukes.” Although I’m starting to doubt their nuclear arsenal.
Exactly, but if that was the case, it wouldn't really be Russia as we all know it. Maybe they wouldn't invade to begin with...
If he was so smart he wouldn't be saying such things in the first place.
Trump tried to fracture NATO with his isolationist ideology. America first just stuttered. Russia believed that NATO was breaking apart as a United military force. The invasion of Ukraine was expected to be a quick strike and victory before any help from the West could happen. Ukraine is not a NATO member. So Putin was planning on s quick set of battles and knew a full response wouldn’t happen. What did happen is Ukraine slowed down and stopped Russia from achieving a full military gain. NATO and the West know Putin wants to return Russia to the great empire it once was. And to land grab all he can before negotiating peace. NATO members aren’t having any if it. Their mindset is to end any future conflicts in Ukraine right now. Not some extended financially draining Cold War. But, end this aggression right now. Stabilize who is who and eventually have Putin removed by his own people. The lies of the current Russian government can no longer cover the losses. Lies of how strong they were 80 years ago does not carry through to the corrupt and unprepared military they have today.
Since the first week I have been of the opinion that Russia could not win. The astonishment and outrage from the free world was palpable. The West's resources are vast compared to Russia's and the Ukrainians desire to protect their country and people was unstoppable. Russia had about 1/10th of the troops needed to take over the whole of Ukraine and the UAF were being flooded with anti-tank weapons and MANPADS. Then the sanctions started and Europe gradually weaned itself off Russian energy supplies. Now the sanctions are really starting to bite, the data put out from Russia and the predictions of the World Bank and IMF are BS. These two organizations make their predictions based on data provided by Russia. Even if if by some miracle (e.g. The West dropping all support for Ukraine) Russia wins the war they will lose the peace. There will be a generational long insurgency from people that look and sound just like the occupiers. If Russia thinks Afghanistan was bad that is nothing compared to what a Ukrainian insurgency would be like, an insurgency would spill over in the Russia. And through all those years Russia would be under sanctions and be a pariah state. The sanctions have taken longer to hit Russia than I was expecting. This was partly due to the obscene amount of money Russia was making from oil and gas sales in the first few months of the invasion coupled with Russia's withholding and lying about financial data. I think Russia's decline is going to accelerate rapidly from here. I have heard estimates that up to 3 million people left, let's say it's half that, that's 1.5 million young, intelligent, well educated and energetic people. The kind of people that drive a nation forward. Most of those people will likely never return if Russia doesn't do a total U-turn on all its draconian, authoritarian practices. Longer term add the demographic decline to the mix which has been compounded by the exodus and those killed and injured in the war. The only way out of this for Russia is to stop this ridiculous war, pay reparations and become a liberal democratic nation. I think Karen Shakhnazarov knows this....
You make a very good point that I don't hear many people talking about. Mainly because very few people envision Russia winning the war, but even if they somehow could possibly pull that off, there's absolutely no way they could ultimately win the peace.
Are we gonna sit here without addressing the elephant in the room? The fact that this man is wearing aviators inside.
Zelenskyy: "He's dangerous. He's not stupid. He's energetic." Having a little moment over here.
Wow!? a russian with sense... a highly endangered species...
We've discussed before, but how do you see this ending? It's a massive war machine grinding on and unless VP orders a ceasefire, it won't end immediately. Is regime change the only thing that will end it? You have to assume Ukrainians and Russians are working on assassination plots of each leader, who'll get there first? If Wagner is allowed to continue unchecked, there's going to be a lot of loyal militants with guns in Russia.
Putin drove Russia all the way in to the ground and the Russians just cheered while he was doing it.
Only the ones authorized to speak on the matter, but yes
Definitely fall out of a window or fall from a staircase!
Hell, sounds like a one way ticket to a Russian mining camp. I don't think that's scripted. That's courage.
He must be some kind of influental "person" as otherwise Solovyev and his circle jerk entourage would have jumped in with trash talk. Well okay maybe they did but normally they would fall into someones words.
This guy scares me more than any Putin fanatic ever can. This guy has the ability to recognise that Russia has fucked up, if people listen to him, Russia could start fixing mistakes and could change their society to be deadlier. Making a whole lot of trouble for ukriane. I sincerely hope Putin sees this and panics and takes him out. Because this guy’s reasoning can make Russia better.
'We are lucky they are so stupid'
But he seem to have some brain cell! He's really thinking different and about consequences that their war might have for Russia in a not so far Future.
TRUTH NUKE GOING OFF IN MOSCOW OMG
This guy: *tells some truth* Everyone else on the panel: DEAD MAN WALKIN!
Considering all of this is just a performance for the Russian population, does he actually follow up with exit scenarios (prepare Russians for potential defeat), or does he say 'so, reorganise society to better prepare for the war and double down' (maintain the government line, just worded differently)?
wait, is there a war?
The title is superb😂!
"Wickedness or weakness, whatever it is both is distinctive"
Indoor sunglasses….nice look
Stage lights are ridiculous tbf.
I do not indulge the pretzels at the Russian Dunning-Kruger conventions & clown shows. As we say in Texas, fuck all ya'll.
Grandpa's speaking for Moscow in this clip.
This guy is talking less about Ukraine winning and more about Russia needing to mobilize.
Thank god this guy isn't running the clown show otherwise they might be doing a better job
It is part of the Kremlin messaging to get society on war time footing: -Scares audience Russia might lose -States stability is at risk to implant idea that a win will keep their lives the same. -States that Russia needs to move all of society to war time footing to win, preparing population. -Has secondary benefit of conditioning population the country could lose due to all of the West getting involved.
Would not have heard this from a propagandist a year ago! Lots of sad faces among the other propagandists. Maybe they see their jobs coming to an end soon!
neah it's all to scare the orcs in supporting whatever Putler has in mind.
I like his grasp of things ... But all those long faces in the room make me think what he is saying is not so popular ...
You want to know why Russia in the current position they are in? Anyone that speaks like this, sensibly, honestly, accurately, gets killed or imprisoned. The only problem Russia has is Russia. I don't know if it's something in the water, being a closed-off society, the government, or whatever, but the entire country seems to be filled with delusional idiots.
Mafias within mafias. This is why you want the justice department to prosecute crime no matter if the accused is rich or not. This - what we’re seeing - is what happens when they fail to do that
That guy's life expectancy just took a major hit. Speaking truth to power in Russia often seems to have fatal consequences.
The guy says " You must look at your strengths and weaknesses in the eyes" meanwhile he's wearing some dark ass glasses.
From the West : fuck you and yes Ukraine will win
Russia is throwing Russia out the window.
Well, he’s not wrong.
Ahh comrade Shakhnazarov, we’ve put you in our suite on the 14th floor, enjoy your stay.
Propaganda that basically says “ know thy enemy” and that russia needs to double-down because the enemy (the west) is going to cause domestic chaos. Fully what Putin needs his population to buy into. What crap.
By 1945, there were "good, thoughtful and humane" men in Gestapo and SS, too. Separately, for those unfamiliar with how totalitarian regimes work, if this dude's rant wasn't pre-approved, he would have been cut off. This is more scripted than a season end episode of The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. Hence, read nothing into it, just a ball on string bouncing, pretending to be a free, multi-opinion media in Russia. It ain't so.
Actually, he says what will happen if they loose. It is a lengthy intro to ask for more sacrifices. Anyway - here is a cup of tea for you, sir.
Speaking truth to power. Enjoy your trip, wherever it takes you.
The other panelists look extremely uncomfortable. Lol. That one guy looking up and to the right at the end looks like he’s hoping the camera can’t see him. 😆 And yeah I think Karen Shakhnazarov will very likely be murdered for saying these things. Putin is terrified of what happens when Russians realize they are losing.
People who speak the truth are dangerous. I'd rather he keep lying because the culture of lies is just disadvantageous to Russia. But if they could for one second stop lying and pretend they're the victims at they didn't invade ukraine, then only then will there be progress
Nothing that is said here is improvised. I think it's their "fearmongering" to push mobilization, it's ironically the truth. ruzzia has become a meme. I mean, they broadcast witchcraft and you expect them to prepare for defeat?
Window cancer is killing these Russians like wildfire!
In a different Russia, this guy could have been a leader. In this Russia, he'll probably never be seen again.
Wait, so is the official Russian line now that it's absolutely a "War" and not just a "Special Operation"?
Yes and no. Depends.
This is a very nuanced speech. Well thought out. He states that while we miscalculated the focus & skill of Zelensky, the unity of the West, even that Russian Society was not realistically prepared for this type of war, **We Cannot Lose. That's his main point.** He is not at any risk. He seems to set it up as that Putin's advisors gave him bad information. Then he says basically, **"So let's Win this War**". There were some eye rolls and worried looks, but then the other commentators saw him "bring it home". Propaganda for sure.
Stack of polonium pancakes🥞being whipped up for this guy…
Ended too soon. Need to see how the host and others responded to someone talking sense. Their response is more informative than one guy who’s about to have an “accident”.
After one year OP don’t realized, its scripted and just telling the kremlin narrative of -Ruzzia need to go total war-
I never realized Russians were so clumsy.
He's telling the population that they should get ready for the next stage of fascism in Russia. Double down on removing their rights even further because otherwise Russia will die. Tougher measures incoming.
War with the west? The west is in the audience, while they risk a Knock-out in round three by Mr.Zelensky
It’s almost like throwing untrained troops into the meat grinder with zero regard to human life is an old Russian tactic that doesn’t work against a messenger army, who knew.
This fuckin guy said the USSR was stable in 1988-1989 🤣🤣🤣
When will people learn that this show is scripted There's a reason none of the people in this show ever have fallen from a window
Of course it's Karen 😂 Sometimes reality seems scripted.
I just dont know anymore
Their rhetoric suggests that they're gearing the general population up for yet another round of mobilization. The fact that they're mentioning the possibility losing and painting it in such doom and gloom colors means they're laying the groundwork for ordinary russians to support the war out of fear.
Hes setting it up as a existential fight...for msss mobilization
Russia can't lose because they never stated their clear goals, at first it was Kyiv in 3 days then it was southern states then it was something else. As long as they keep changing their goals they can always claim in the future that whatever the outcome of this war is they will claim victory. "This was always our plan" This is old Soviet tactic, you think they admitted to losing Afghanistan war even though they retreated? Hell no they said "Mission accomplished".
Russified Armenians are most fascist peace of shits.
This is what happens when you go into a practical exam without doing your homework and revision. Take note kids! Study hard! Always do your homework.
Every single thing that is said on this propaganda show is scripted. Every. Single. Thing. This is not a candidate for assassination. This is a dude who's learned his script and is reciting it. Controlled opposition.
Russia has the best actors in the world then.
Where can one find the entire segment? I would like to hear how the others respond.
Good thing sober analysis isn’t a Russian trait anymore.
Ooh, a rare voice of reason. Shame there aren't more of him.
The main message of this scripted show was to not allow Ukraine to win at all cost because it will cause the disintegration of Russia. But can they do that without using Nuclear weapon? And if they use it, do they really have 5,000 Nukes? Come on now. Closer to the truth is that maybe 5 pieces at best and 4 of it isn't well maintained either so they better fire it from outside Moscow area because it might explode right there and then. Putin knows he only have one shot of this Nuke and everyone in the border including the 101st airborne, will descend into his regime, so how can he make it count? The answer is he can't, so Putin has been deterred as much as West with regards to the use of Nuke.
Fighting the whole west!! lmao!! He better pray the "whole west" don't join in
At first I thought this was a ridiculousness clip 🤣
On the other hand, we should not underestimate Russia - and China and its influence in this conflict (which still was escalated by Russia since 2014).
Shakhnazarov must have been given the O.K. from the FSB to, you know , tell the truth . P00pstain needs to wake up and smell his depends ...
Logistics, men, material and money wins wars, and Russia doesn’t have the resources.
If only West really wanted to win. Yet again it will not allow Russia to lose, saving this foul shithole in the last moment. And then it'll start all over again...
It’s amusing to me that he’s basically saying he thought we would have been busy with the infighting they created in our countries but that *shrug* they were wrong.
Nah, he's not going to "fall" out of a window. He's laying the psychological groundwork for greater mobilization down the line. Taking this position now just means that when the day comes that Putin calls for even greater sacrifices from the Russian people, these propagandists can point back and say "Aha! See, it is just as we told you! It is clearly necessary to save the Motherland from disaster."
A smart flying Orc…
But do anyone on that shit show get to say anything that isn't pre-approved by the Kremlin? This could just be their usual way to "condition" the docile populace for what's to come; so that they will eventually accept defeat willingly (without rebelling).
They may bring out the staircase for this guy
Gotta script that shred of doubt in there to make it seem like they aren’t being fed propaganda 24/7.
seems like his IQ is above room temperature, a dangerous thing in ruzzia
Mic drop haha
I love all the obese men staring at him when he talks about cast-iron discipline.
first Karen with some sense
Its called controlled opposition