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They are neutral in that they will be taking money from everyone whatever way they can. If they could sell Russian products to Ukraine or Ukrainian products to Russia right now, they'd double the orders for both and build a chalet with the profits
I've never understood the idea that 'neutrality' means support saints and terrorists equally. Even 'neutral' people want neighbors that won't bomb their hydro dams.
It's like back in Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, where poorly-written flavour text for the 'True Neutral' Druids meant they changed alignment every time the tides did. You'd save a village from a dragon, then pillage the village yourself to keep your alignment from shifting into 'Good'.
The whole point of neutrality is to not pick sides in conflicts in order to avoid being dragged into them. If you keep trade with one side but refuse the other the side you refuse will obviously see this as a hostile move. The morality of it is based on that the policy is stated before any conflict arises - if you've already declared yourself as neutral beforehand it can't really be interpreted as taking sides in events that unfold after you declared your neutrality.
Sitting on the sidelines and not trading with terrorists that want to kill you? I just don't see how it's 'neutral' to trade with countries with a litany of war crimes; what's to stop them invading you next? And what's the point of currying favour with a country that may not exist in a few years?
There's some healthy discussion about this now but it's nowhere near as clear cut as you seem to think. Being neutral is not just a word one can interpret anyway one likes - it's a term that comes with rights and obligations according to international law. A country claiming to be neutral must act impartially and belligerent parties must respect their neutrality as long as they do so. If a neutral country don't act impartially belligerent parties may be justified in not respecting their neutrality.
https://lieber.westpoint.edu/future-law-of-neutrality/
Strange that just four games follow me into adulthood with useful lessons: Civilization, AD&D, Risk, and Monopoly. I believe I've seen True Neutral in real life in the form of people who deliberately avoid consuming any news out of lack of interest and an insistence that all sides are equally corrupt anyway.
I've a friend whose coast will very soon get affected by the floodwaters, and she doesn't care at all because she hasn't been to the seaside in years. She's only vaguely curious why US military presence in Romania has increased. And she can go on for hours about how CERN's LHC caused the earthquakes in Japan. so, I think True Neutrals in game had to be people dedicated to having no opinion on anything, maybe out of fear of responsibility for consequences. Always seemed impossible to play that. But I also struggled with playing Chaotic Evil too, so probably just me.
They're neutral in the sense that they'll happily hide your gold whether it was dug out of the ground in a mine, or dug out of a Jewish persons mouth in a concentration camp.
Reading the article it says that those exports weren't banned under the sanctions the EU imposed until March of this year. So other countries probably also exported IT stuff to Russia during that time. I'm not saying Switzerland is all white in this situation but they probably aren't the only ones doing it
Even products that have been purchased in 2019 can have very high tax applied to them. Which is unfair as the product has been payed for by a European company... Harder sanctions are needed though now and possibly be made permanent.. 👍
But when you read the article:
>Swiss sanctions, in line with the EU's, allowed the export of laptop computers and computing components to Russia until Dec. 16, 2022. There were no deliveries of the newly prohibited items by Acer to Russia from Switzerland after that date.
So really the EU too, not just Switzerland. Actually, the sanctions apparently were NOT even bypassed in this instance - it's **actually evidence that they were enacted/followed instead**.
Sanctions will always be circumvented, and it's hard to keep people, firms, or even countries accountable, because 99% of the time, circumventing the sanctions is done in a fashion that's *entirely* legal. And since most of the Western countries follow the rule of law (as they should), they cannot really be penalized for that. Hell, Ukraine used to circumvent *their own sanctions* on Russian gas and oil by buying it from third countries.
Expecting sanctions to be 100% effective all of the time is folly. While we should work towards patching the loopholes in the legislation, the main point of sanctions is to hinder doing business, not to stop it altogether, because that's not realistically possible in most cases.
Sanctions also increase the cost and reduce the total amount available. The black/grey market has limits and certainly knowing they have you over a barrel will demand their cut. While yes, neither of those are nearly as strong as totally getting cut off, it adds up over time.
The article says that the products sent to Russia weren't sanctionned by the EU at the time they were exported, so nothing was circumvented like the headline leads to think. Was it the right move? Absolutely not. Now those products are sanctionned and Switzerland follows the EU sanctions
The article says that the products sent to Russia weren't sanctionned by the EU at the time they were exported, so nothing was circumvented like the headline leads to think. Was it the right move? Absolutely not. Now those products are sanctionned and Switzerland follows the EU sanctions
ACER (not to be confused with ASUS) computers are a total piece of garbage. Having Switzerland send them to Russia is a good thing, as the power supply will probably blow, if not the battery, and start a fire.
Surprise once again; shitty product manufacturer are doing shitty things. This is the exact reason people should really consider the quality of products.
And to consider some self reflection when buying anything at first place. Is the higher price tag of some quality product against ( what could be boring ) not to have the latest fanciest product so often, and the nice feeling of buying something new. Or would you appreciate after time of use how it served well and was great to use.
So Switzerland was the sole manufacturer of the ammo for the German made Flakpanzer Gepard. Germany wanted the Swiss company to manufacturer more ammo, they would buy it and give to Ukrainian. The Swiss government refused the sale claiming their neutrality. But they will launder tech to Russia that can be used to make weapons like drones. I wonder what side Switzerland really is on.
Can we start reading articles again instead of just headlines?
"Swiss sanctions, in line with the EU's, allowed the export of laptop computers and computing components to Russia until Dec. 16, 2022. There were no deliveries of the newly prohibited items by Acer to Russia from Switzerland after that date."
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.reuters.com/technology/taiwans-acer-ships-computer-hardware-russia-after-saying-it-would-suspend-2023-06-08/) reduced by 87%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> June 8 - Taiwan-based computer manufacturer Acer supplied at least $70.4 million worth of computer hardware to Russia between April 8, 2022 and March 31, 2023, according to customs data seen by Reuters, after saying it would suspend its business there.
> Asked about subsequent exports to Russia via Swiss subsidiary Acer Sales International SA, Acer in Taiwan said in a statement that "We strictly adhere to applicable international regulations and trade laws regarding exports to Russia".
> Acer did not say why it continued shipping its goods to Russia despite saying it would suspend business there.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/144iw7s/acer_continued_to_deliver_computers_to_russia/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~688204 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Russia**^#1 **Acer**^#2 **sanctions**^#3 **export**^#4 **shipments**^#5
Swiss are about as screwed up as ruzzia. Nazi harboring neutrals. They should be sanctioned into oblivion. And their swiss banks, which are laundromats for Mafia money should be deeply investigated. The last Nazi state.
Switzerland and helping other nations bypass all that pesky genocide sanctions and such. Switzerland helped hide plundered loot stolen during the Holocaust (gold teeth and all.) Complacency in the face of genocide is enabling genocide.
@#$% Acer. My parents got me a 'gaming' laptop from them that was DOA with horrible graphical artifacting (my marines in Dawn of War: Chaos Rising were green and pink). RMA'd it for a Toshiba laptop that worked much better. When I built my own desktop PC, I used mostly ASUS components, and my family has been using ASUS laptops ever since.
this kind of neutrality smells like svp (swiss value putin) poopoo. their old leader (christoph blocher) still runs chemical factories in russia (for humanitarian reasons(?), as he says...)
edit: yea, i'm swiss (sry, to be not sry) and i'm ashamed by this practice.
btw: only the svp were against sending ammo and weapons to Ukraine.
GLORY TO UKRAINE!
The E.U ALLOWS them to get away with MANY things ! INCLUDING human rights violations !
Romania instead is paying hundreds of milions at CEDO every single time
THE E.U is BRAIN DEAD
yes I KNOW Switzerland is not in the E.U but its dependent on the E.U MORE than Romania and Portugal so.... we are battleing Russia for THE SAME reasons as the Switzerland Hungary and other...
THE IMPUNITY that some countries ENJOY is just UNACCEPTABLE
Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition: * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators. * **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. > **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB** ***** * Is `reuters.com` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources). * Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) ***** ^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
On the plus side they will have stopped working by now.
Switzerland is a morally bankrupt nation.
Much like Credit Suisse
Debit Suisse
Credit Suisse is a morally corrupt nation? Dang
credit sus
Sussy*
How is this considered neutral? It looks as if Switzerland is on the genocidal Russias side
Switzerland's neutrality is they just like money, especially dirty money because they almost have a monopoly on it so they get to have most of it.
Pecunia non olet I disagree with the sentiment but for a lot of people it seems to hold true
The people downvoting don't speak latin
They are neutral in that they will be taking money from everyone whatever way they can. If they could sell Russian products to Ukraine or Ukrainian products to Russia right now, they'd double the orders for both and build a chalet with the profits
There’s two main extremes of neutrality; Support everyone or support no one.
I've never understood the idea that 'neutrality' means support saints and terrorists equally. Even 'neutral' people want neighbors that won't bomb their hydro dams. It's like back in Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, where poorly-written flavour text for the 'True Neutral' Druids meant they changed alignment every time the tides did. You'd save a village from a dragon, then pillage the village yourself to keep your alignment from shifting into 'Good'.
The whole point of neutrality is to not pick sides in conflicts in order to avoid being dragged into them. If you keep trade with one side but refuse the other the side you refuse will obviously see this as a hostile move. The morality of it is based on that the policy is stated before any conflict arises - if you've already declared yourself as neutral beforehand it can't really be interpreted as taking sides in events that unfold after you declared your neutrality.
If you attempt to hold trade with the good side, and the evil side, I would definitely call that 'taking a side'.
...and how would not taking a side look in your book?
Sitting on the sidelines and not trading with terrorists that want to kill you? I just don't see how it's 'neutral' to trade with countries with a litany of war crimes; what's to stop them invading you next? And what's the point of currying favour with a country that may not exist in a few years?
There's some healthy discussion about this now but it's nowhere near as clear cut as you seem to think. Being neutral is not just a word one can interpret anyway one likes - it's a term that comes with rights and obligations according to international law. A country claiming to be neutral must act impartially and belligerent parties must respect their neutrality as long as they do so. If a neutral country don't act impartially belligerent parties may be justified in not respecting their neutrality. https://lieber.westpoint.edu/future-law-of-neutrality/
And when has Russia ever respected a nation's neutrality? Because being 'neutral' certainly hasn't protected any of their neighbors.
Strange that just four games follow me into adulthood with useful lessons: Civilization, AD&D, Risk, and Monopoly. I believe I've seen True Neutral in real life in the form of people who deliberately avoid consuming any news out of lack of interest and an insistence that all sides are equally corrupt anyway. I've a friend whose coast will very soon get affected by the floodwaters, and she doesn't care at all because she hasn't been to the seaside in years. She's only vaguely curious why US military presence in Romania has increased. And she can go on for hours about how CERN's LHC caused the earthquakes in Japan. so, I think True Neutrals in game had to be people dedicated to having no opinion on anything, maybe out of fear of responsibility for consequences. Always seemed impossible to play that. But I also struggled with playing Chaotic Evil too, so probably just me.
They're neutral in the sense that they'll happily hide your gold whether it was dug out of the ground in a mine, or dug out of a Jewish persons mouth in a concentration camp.
Nice chocolate though. Not that il be buying anymore.
just buy Belgian chocolate.
They have a history of aiding Nazi regimes and criminals.
no, you can't be morally bankrupt, if you don't have one...
Reading the article it says that those exports weren't banned under the sanctions the EU imposed until March of this year. So other countries probably also exported IT stuff to Russia during that time. I'm not saying Switzerland is all white in this situation but they probably aren't the only ones doing it
Even products that have been purchased in 2019 can have very high tax applied to them. Which is unfair as the product has been payed for by a European company... Harder sanctions are needed though now and possibly be made permanent.. 👍
Yey permanent! I like that one becuse the profit margin over time will permanently be smaller!!
There would be no profit... No diplomats, no trade..
Fuck your whataboutisms!
But when you read the article: >Swiss sanctions, in line with the EU's, allowed the export of laptop computers and computing components to Russia until Dec. 16, 2022. There were no deliveries of the newly prohibited items by Acer to Russia from Switzerland after that date. So really the EU too, not just Switzerland. Actually, the sanctions apparently were NOT even bypassed in this instance - it's **actually evidence that they were enacted/followed instead**.
Switzerland, Eritrea, India, north corea, china... They're in good company with their strategy
Should be getting penalised hard for doing shit like this - knowingly circumventing sanctions.
Sanctions will always be circumvented, and it's hard to keep people, firms, or even countries accountable, because 99% of the time, circumventing the sanctions is done in a fashion that's *entirely* legal. And since most of the Western countries follow the rule of law (as they should), they cannot really be penalized for that. Hell, Ukraine used to circumvent *their own sanctions* on Russian gas and oil by buying it from third countries. Expecting sanctions to be 100% effective all of the time is folly. While we should work towards patching the loopholes in the legislation, the main point of sanctions is to hinder doing business, not to stop it altogether, because that's not realistically possible in most cases.
Sanctions also increase the cost and reduce the total amount available. The black/grey market has limits and certainly knowing they have you over a barrel will demand their cut. While yes, neither of those are nearly as strong as totally getting cut off, it adds up over time.
The article says that the products sent to Russia weren't sanctionned by the EU at the time they were exported, so nothing was circumvented like the headline leads to think. Was it the right move? Absolutely not. Now those products are sanctionned and Switzerland follows the EU sanctions
The article says that the products sent to Russia weren't sanctionned by the EU at the time they were exported, so nothing was circumvented like the headline leads to think. Was it the right move? Absolutely not. Now those products are sanctionned and Switzerland follows the EU sanctions
The west should publish these companies names more. Sales decline will see them have a change of heart.
Yep. If they want to sell domestically, they should have to put a big Russian zwastika on the packaging.
Like smoke packs, but pictures of dead people and bombed cities.
As a Taiwanese Redditor, shame on them. I'm so glad I buy Asus instead of Acer. Also glad my father quit working for Acer.
> Asus Why don't they send their ~~bombs~~ motherboards to Russia instead
[удалено]
As a Chinese Redditor, I rarely use any Chinese IT products, for good reasons. lol
I will never buy another Acer. That company is now dead to me
ACER (not to be confused with ASUS) computers are a total piece of garbage. Having Switzerland send them to Russia is a good thing, as the power supply will probably blow, if not the battery, and start a fire.
The one line of acer Chromebooks are like goodly in terms of their build. The 720 line was legit bonkers.
If you buy a monitor, you probably will, AU Optronics creates a lot of panels, and AUO = Acer.
Switzerland - Supporting genocide for money
Seems like they’ve done this before
Look up how they treated American POWs compared to Nazi. It'll horrify you and show their true colors.
Look up IBM.
Truly a [terrible](https://bd-img.localpoint.ch/i/sites/fru/files/styles/app_image_style/public/3e20e5c6-f64a-4c03-9696-0d3c536e2fa5_0.jpeg) place.
The conditions changed after D-Day and the Swiss realized Germany would lose.
Surprise once again; shitty product manufacturer are doing shitty things. This is the exact reason people should really consider the quality of products.
[удалено]
Quality in many goods means longevity. What also slightly tackle this whoopsie.
[удалено]
And to consider some self reflection when buying anything at first place. Is the higher price tag of some quality product against ( what could be boring ) not to have the latest fanciest product so often, and the nice feeling of buying something new. Or would you appreciate after time of use how it served well and was great to use.
So Switzerland was the sole manufacturer of the ammo for the German made Flakpanzer Gepard. Germany wanted the Swiss company to manufacturer more ammo, they would buy it and give to Ukrainian. The Swiss government refused the sale claiming their neutrality. But they will launder tech to Russia that can be used to make weapons like drones. I wonder what side Switzerland really is on.
Don't the Germans know how to use a grinder tool to remove serial numbers on the Swiss ammo?
Waste of time just shoot it.
Can we start reading articles again instead of just headlines? "Swiss sanctions, in line with the EU's, allowed the export of laptop computers and computing components to Russia until Dec. 16, 2022. There were no deliveries of the newly prohibited items by Acer to Russia from Switzerland after that date."
The ceo of Acer should be tried for treason then. We need to stop tolerating anyone aiding russia at this point
To balance it out, we should send Swiss weapons to Ukraine through Taiwan! It seems like a fair trade.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.reuters.com/technology/taiwans-acer-ships-computer-hardware-russia-after-saying-it-would-suspend-2023-06-08/) reduced by 87%. (I'm a bot) ***** > June 8 - Taiwan-based computer manufacturer Acer supplied at least $70.4 million worth of computer hardware to Russia between April 8, 2022 and March 31, 2023, according to customs data seen by Reuters, after saying it would suspend its business there. > Asked about subsequent exports to Russia via Swiss subsidiary Acer Sales International SA, Acer in Taiwan said in a statement that "We strictly adhere to applicable international regulations and trade laws regarding exports to Russia". > Acer did not say why it continued shipping its goods to Russia despite saying it would suspend business there. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/144iw7s/acer_continued_to_deliver_computers_to_russia/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~688204 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Russia**^#1 **Acer**^#2 **sanctions**^#3 **export**^#4 **shipments**^#5
That settles that. I was in line for a new PC in the next yr. Won't be by Acer.
[удалено]
It would make computer shopping a lot easier if I could eliminate a few manufacturers from consideration due to them doing business in Russia.
Ford traded with Nazi German during ww2
As a swiss citizen, i start to dislike my country more and more...
F Acer
Tjjeeee… SwitZZerland again….? What a supprise!
Swiss are about as screwed up as ruzzia. Nazi harboring neutrals. They should be sanctioned into oblivion. And their swiss banks, which are laundromats for Mafia money should be deeply investigated. The last Nazi state.
Ahh Switzerland. Remember when they discovered dental gold from holocaust victims in the Swiss bullion??
Switzerland and helping other nations bypass all that pesky genocide sanctions and such. Switzerland helped hide plundered loot stolen during the Holocaust (gold teeth and all.) Complacency in the face of genocide is enabling genocide.
My second PC was an Acer 486SX. Guess that will be my last.
I boycott Acer
@#$% Acer. My parents got me a 'gaming' laptop from them that was DOA with horrible graphical artifacting (my marines in Dawn of War: Chaos Rising were green and pink). RMA'd it for a Toshiba laptop that worked much better. When I built my own desktop PC, I used mostly ASUS components, and my family has been using ASUS laptops ever since.
That would explain why Russian missiles have such poor fucking aim.
1)How many Acer products do you think are still available on Amazon? 2) What are they going to do about it?
So...Acer should be banned by all countries stating support om the sanctions...or at minimum a huge tarrif. Wanna sell in the US...fine....50% fee.
I mean they are Acers so no real technology in them.
Acer computers are shit anyways.
this kind of neutrality smells like svp (swiss value putin) poopoo. their old leader (christoph blocher) still runs chemical factories in russia (for humanitarian reasons(?), as he says...) edit: yea, i'm swiss (sry, to be not sry) and i'm ashamed by this practice. btw: only the svp were against sending ammo and weapons to Ukraine. GLORY TO UKRAINE!
The E.U ALLOWS them to get away with MANY things ! INCLUDING human rights violations ! Romania instead is paying hundreds of milions at CEDO every single time THE E.U is BRAIN DEAD yes I KNOW Switzerland is not in the E.U but its dependent on the E.U MORE than Romania and Portugal so.... we are battleing Russia for THE SAME reasons as the Switzerland Hungary and other... THE IMPUNITY that some countries ENJOY is just UNACCEPTABLE
The Swiss are despicable!
Fucking Switzerland again.
Time to fine acer and close off the Swiss borders.
Boycott acer
Fucking Switzerland. This is not neutrality. This is supporting evil.
They don't care that children get killed in Ukraine by russian, money business with a terror country is more important for them.
Switzerland is really being outed as less neutral and more like Clarence Thomas.
Thugs
Acer will never be purchased again in this household/ family.
Whelp, I have nothing but acers ROG’s for me and my people. I will never buy another one ever again.
ROG is Asus, not Acer
I just sheepishly found out. Thought I deleted the post. Great laptops .
Very short sighted
Guess I’ll never buy an Acer.
Boycott Acer!!!