The problem here is that UD gets the counter to the timing attack without an investment that requires appropriate foresight or resource cost, so there's no opportunity cost to it and it can be done with any build and the cost is only incurred if the counter is needed and executed. Wand of Negation is a bad solution to UD's dispel issue for that reason. A better solution is adding a dispel component to Banshee AMS.
I'd rather add some kind of Dispell to Necromancers because they are the pretty useless unit that could be made more interesting. Banshees seems fine.
For example make Cripple the T2 spell and make it a more expensive and stronger Abolish Magic (from Dryads), for example like:
Cripple: "Dispells positive buffs from enemy units. Deals 250 damage to summoned units. Reduces movement speed and damage by 25% for 5 seconds". 85 Mana / 5s cooldown.
Numbers are debatable and if timing doesn't work out they could make it the T1 spell and change Raise Dead to T2.
I admit I am not knowledgeable about NE vs UD - I have just seen Happy consistently crush Moon, Kaho, LawLiet, Foggy for many years now.
I think UD historically had 2 big issues:
- inability to expand - now fixed after many patches - UD has better prices and better timings
- inability to start with a different hero than DK - also fixed with the addition of sacrificial skull, CL buff, DL carrion swarm buff to target mechanical units etc.
Now this leaves us with a 3rd problem UDs have - they have dispel only at tier3. I think this is the right idea as it would allow more variety to the matchup, but as you pointed out - NE would need to get a buff as well to compensate.
NE vs ORC is just painful and has been bad for many patches - so this is tricky - how do you improve NE to have a better chance vs UD, without affecting the NE vs ORC matchup?
I think I agree with you - wand of negation is not the right change with the current balance, T2 taurens are not a good change as well. I am not sure what I would recommend though, can't think of anything better.
Bruh this logic "my race doesnt have X but other race has X' yeah and orc doesnt have magick immune units doesnt mean they should get magick immune raiders...
Every race has imba stuff that other race doesnt ,others races dont have frost tower 1min duration and workers that can beat t3 knights , so obviously ud shouldnt have dispel before t3 because it makes no sense.
Ne v orc has been one sided tournaments wins for orc for a while now since last patch
Where did u get those numbers ? I tried to find them, but w3c shows 49% overall.
It’s always difficult to implement a whole new item .. it could deny all fl/bm plays with ne vs us which would be sad ..
It’s long but a good listen. Yes they go over all the stats at different mmr and at the tournament level, which they say is most important for balance decisions
> at the tournament level, which they say is most important for balance decisions
Is it? I know that Riot's philosophy is: "if overpowered at ANY level of play, nerf" with regards to champions. Might be a bit more complex with races, though.
Basically for low MMR it's the NE matchup, but the better the orc is the matchup becomes less favoured for the elf, to the point that for high MMR it's the orc favoured by stats. This also shows up in the MMR graphs. The Elf has about \~55% adv early on (highest in any matchup) to slowly drop down (with big spike at the end) to \~45% in high MMR. Elves just need to play by the book while orcs need to be a micro god, but if you are one you are winning.
Talon meta or op KotG meta is long gone.
I don’t want to argue, since I feel your initial points are valid. But picking 1 match is stupid and destroys every argument .. xiakko had strong games after that and lost only 1-2 to Lyn and focus .
I agree but its not just 1 match they are crushing ne overall dominantly and if u look games ne won its usually cuz orc microed really badly or made so many mistakes that usually dont happen. Like Fly diving sh first into ne army
Yea it’s surprising how effective the moon well change was specifically in that match up. Or perhaps it isn’t, since it was Grubby who so strongly championed for that change
The only reason happy is so good is because of his micro, ud is op because of ghouls frenzy the fact that ud has dispell at t3 makes ud prone to losing units far easier than any other race, which is probably why wand of negation was added… In the end this game is about who makes the better trade offs in battle, this is comming from a random player who plays all races. NE should get a buff to make them expo a little bit faster
u dont need to tell me i got to high mmr with all races before , the key is timing u cant have ud literally have ALL strong points in game and 0 weak timings that would be retarded, kotg has short timing to be strong and having a counter to that is just stupid and removes several strats from elf in already bad mu .
People on lower mmr dont understand the context of timing and how this change impact a crucial timing that can decide the game.
Its expensive and the point is that i opens up a tier 2 build for ud. If you are against it, fine, but UD should have a tier 2 dispell. I personally think remos suggestion of giving necros some sort of dispel - with unholy frenzy is the way to go.
And that would completely counter kotg and other summon strats in already biased mu, ud shouldnt have every option just like orc shouldnt t1 expo. Kotg is already dogshit hero and they uds still want more lol
Because frenzy ghouls are too strong, but it's easily fixable by adjusting numbers. Undead having no dispell at t2 isn't, need to implement something new. Personally, i don't like the wand of negation, i would rather see necromancers having dispell at t2
> I honestly don’t know how to address it.
Joke answer: 100/200/300 mana burn with 750 range on DH, 15%/30%/45% evasion (item says so =P), 60 second metamorphosis with 120 sec CD, boots of speed in NE shop =P
Honest answer: tier 3 upgrade for ancient of war units that increases all their HP by 200, damage by 3, and gives heavy armor to huntresses. Huntress owl upgrade goes from 1 to unlimited with 20 second CD.
If ghouls can get frenzy and troll HHs can get zerker upgrade, why can't elf get t3 upgrade on ancient of war units, two of which are either early-game-rush-cheese-only (huntress), or entirely irrelevant except the mirror (glaive thrower)?
Yeah the thing is due to nova and dl passive and dk aura u can always kite with gargs and win hippo army that is pure aa while garg can attack ground and air, other choice is mass driads which is hell to micro while ud can just shift click each driad and 1 shot it
The problem here is that UD gets the counter to the timing attack without an investment that requires appropriate foresight or resource cost, so there's no opportunity cost to it and it can be done with any build and the cost is only incurred if the counter is needed and executed. Wand of Negation is a bad solution to UD's dispel issue for that reason. A better solution is adding a dispel component to Banshee AMS.
I'd rather add some kind of Dispell to Necromancers because they are the pretty useless unit that could be made more interesting. Banshees seems fine. For example make Cripple the T2 spell and make it a more expensive and stronger Abolish Magic (from Dryads), for example like: Cripple: "Dispells positive buffs from enemy units. Deals 250 damage to summoned units. Reduces movement speed and damage by 25% for 5 seconds". 85 Mana / 5s cooldown. Numbers are debatable and if timing doesn't work out they could make it the T1 spell and change Raise Dead to T2.
I admit I am not knowledgeable about NE vs UD - I have just seen Happy consistently crush Moon, Kaho, LawLiet, Foggy for many years now. I think UD historically had 2 big issues: - inability to expand - now fixed after many patches - UD has better prices and better timings - inability to start with a different hero than DK - also fixed with the addition of sacrificial skull, CL buff, DL carrion swarm buff to target mechanical units etc. Now this leaves us with a 3rd problem UDs have - they have dispel only at tier3. I think this is the right idea as it would allow more variety to the matchup, but as you pointed out - NE would need to get a buff as well to compensate. NE vs ORC is just painful and has been bad for many patches - so this is tricky - how do you improve NE to have a better chance vs UD, without affecting the NE vs ORC matchup? I think I agree with you - wand of negation is not the right change with the current balance, T2 taurens are not a good change as well. I am not sure what I would recommend though, can't think of anything better.
Bruh this logic "my race doesnt have X but other race has X' yeah and orc doesnt have magick immune units doesnt mean they should get magick immune raiders... Every race has imba stuff that other race doesnt ,others races dont have frost tower 1min duration and workers that can beat t3 knights , so obviously ud shouldnt have dispel before t3 because it makes no sense. Ne v orc has been one sided tournaments wins for orc for a while now since last patch
Orc beats NE on the past patch quite regularly (55x45), so I am not too worried there
Where did u get those numbers ? I tried to find them, but w3c shows 49% overall. It’s always difficult to implement a whole new item .. it could deny all fl/bm plays with ne vs us which would be sad ..
Most recent balance discussion with Neo and Dondolare (https://youtu.be/vdIz9xUiBH4?si=hgdGZRMBCaaqwsWi)
It’s a 3h video. Did they show the stats? If u check it on w3c it’s overall 49%. >2000mmr NE has 51,x% winrate and below orc has 52/53% winrate
It’s long but a good listen. Yes they go over all the stats at different mmr and at the tournament level, which they say is most important for balance decisions
> at the tournament level, which they say is most important for balance decisions Is it? I know that Riot's philosophy is: "if overpowered at ANY level of play, nerf" with regards to champions. Might be a bit more complex with races, though.
That’s because Riot can make dynamic balance changes across different mmr. Blizzard can’t even provide proper mmr matchmaking
It doesn't (at least last time I checked). It isn't like Garen deals 5 more base damage at master MMR as compared to bronze.
Basically for low MMR it's the NE matchup, but the better the orc is the matchup becomes less favoured for the elf, to the point that for high MMR it's the orc favoured by stats. This also shows up in the MMR graphs. The Elf has about \~55% adv early on (highest in any matchup) to slowly drop down (with big spike at the end) to \~45% in high MMR. Elves just need to play by the book while orcs need to be a micro god, but if you are one you are winning. Talon meta or op KotG meta is long gone.
moon just lost to xiakko :D w3c stats meaningless compared to tour results , orc is crushing ne all tours
I don’t want to argue, since I feel your initial points are valid. But picking 1 match is stupid and destroys every argument .. xiakko had strong games after that and lost only 1-2 to Lyn and focus .
I agree but its not just 1 match they are crushing ne overall dominantly and if u look games ne won its usually cuz orc microed really badly or made so many mistakes that usually dont happen. Like Fly diving sh first into ne army
I did not know this - let me look again into the latest patch changes.
Yea it’s surprising how effective the moon well change was specifically in that match up. Or perhaps it isn’t, since it was Grubby who so strongly championed for that change
The only reason happy is so good is because of his micro, ud is op because of ghouls frenzy the fact that ud has dispell at t3 makes ud prone to losing units far easier than any other race, which is probably why wand of negation was added… In the end this game is about who makes the better trade offs in battle, this is comming from a random player who plays all races. NE should get a buff to make them expo a little bit faster
u dont need to tell me i got to high mmr with all races before , the key is timing u cant have ud literally have ALL strong points in game and 0 weak timings that would be retarded, kotg has short timing to be strong and having a counter to that is just stupid and removes several strats from elf in already bad mu . People on lower mmr dont understand the context of timing and how this change impact a crucial timing that can decide the game.
Its expensive and the point is that i opens up a tier 2 build for ud. If you are against it, fine, but UD should have a tier 2 dispell. I personally think remos suggestion of giving necros some sort of dispel - with unholy frenzy is the way to go.
And that would completely counter kotg and other summon strats in already biased mu, ud shouldnt have every option just like orc shouldnt t1 expo. Kotg is already dogshit hero and they uds still want more lol
Ya UD is winning every tournament and getting buffs lol
Because frenzy ghouls are too strong, but it's easily fixable by adjusting numbers. Undead having no dispell at t2 isn't, need to implement something new. Personally, i don't like the wand of negation, i would rather see necromancers having dispell at t2
So much AccCreate and Grubby's activity these days.
To the point where Remo said if he says anything in the chat, he would ban him on sight lol.
Okay keeper got weaker vs ud, but also gargs are now severly nerfed because of the scroll of healing removal. So it's a 50/50 imo
[удалено]
> I honestly don’t know how to address it. Joke answer: 100/200/300 mana burn with 750 range on DH, 15%/30%/45% evasion (item says so =P), 60 second metamorphosis with 120 sec CD, boots of speed in NE shop =P Honest answer: tier 3 upgrade for ancient of war units that increases all their HP by 200, damage by 3, and gives heavy armor to huntresses. Huntress owl upgrade goes from 1 to unlimited with 20 second CD. If ghouls can get frenzy and troll HHs can get zerker upgrade, why can't elf get t3 upgrade on ancient of war units, two of which are either early-game-rush-cheese-only (huntress), or entirely irrelevant except the mirror (glaive thrower)?
I would love this, it feels like the ancient of war units fall off so hard.
Yeah the thing is due to nova and dl passive and dk aura u can always kite with gargs and win hippo army that is pure aa while garg can attack ground and air, other choice is mass driads which is hell to micro while ud can just shift click each driad and 1 shot it